Latest / The Virtual Couch / Grief to Growth: Aurora Florence and Jeff Dickamore on their Movie ‘Too Soon’

Transcript

Grief to Growth: Aurora Florence and Jeff Dickamore on their Movie ‘Too Soon’ · The Virtual Couch

• 0:00
  Music.
• 0:21
  Hey everybody, welcome to episode 386 of The Virtual Couch. I am your host Tony
• 0:27
  Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified Mindful Habit Coach, writer, speaker, husband, father of four, and host of Waking Up to
• 0:34
  Narcissism, Waking Up to Narcissism Premium Question and Answer Podcast, and
• 0:39
  Murder on the Couch. So please check out all of the podcasts on The Virtual Couch
• 0:43
  Network and please go to the Linktree link in the show notes where you will
• 0:47
  find all the all the relevant links to join my mailing list and get my marriage
• 0:51
  workshop and addiction recovery program and parenting course and all those things. So let's now get to today's episode. If you are a virtual couch
• 0:58
  listener, then and if you've made it through to the end, first of all, thank,
• 1:02
  you to to the end of an episode, you've no doubt heard me say now taking us out
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  per usual the wonderful the talented and sometimes now on tik tok, Aurora Florence with her song, it's wonderful. And it has become synonymous with the
• 1:16
  Virtual Couch and I love, I love the song.
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  I love the energy that Aurora brings into that and quite frankly into everything that she does.
• 1:24
  So today, you are going to hear that energy in spades, along with the calm, soothing tones of
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  her wonderful husband, Jeff Dickemore, who somehow hypnotized me numerous times in this interview
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  with his movie star good looks, along with his just overall positive vibe,
• 1:41
  where in the interview, I found myself being interviewed on more than one occasion and not
• 1:45
  understanding how he did that and trying to turn it back around, but this guy's good.
• 1:49
  But what is even better is the project that Aurora and Jeff, along with an occasional visitor, their three-year-old daughter Faye, who came into my office to talk about, and it's a crowdfunding movie called Too Soon.
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  So Jeff and Aurora and Faye, to a certain extent, talked about the Hollywood film industry, how they found themselves wanting to tell a story about grief, about finding connection in a place, and basically in a way where one wouldn't expect to find a connection.
• 2:17
  What it's like to connect with the underrepresented grief and the widow community, what it's like to
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  fight against what might be an easier path of creating movies that the movie industry wants,
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  like horror and superhero movies, versus creating content based on where their own life experience
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  has taken them. And we just talk about so much more. It was one of the, I don't know,
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  one of the most enjoyable interviews I think I've ever done. And at the risk of this almost
• 2:42
  sounding like a commercial, which we actually address in the interview, they're also raising
• 2:46
  money for this new film Too Soon through a pretty cool, it's a very unique crowdfunding
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  platform called WeFunder, and I'll put the link in the show notes, but you can simply
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  go to WeFunder, W-E-F-U-N-D-E-R dot com slash too soon, T-O-O-S-O-O-N, to find out all the
• 3:03
  details of not only the movie, but how the platform works. And in its most simple form,
• 3:09
  you can make a donation or more like an investment into the movie, and then you actually own
• 3:14
  a small portion of the movie. And while there are no guarantees if the movie truly grows
• 3:18
  and takes off, then you can humble brag to your friends that you are now a big time movie
• 3:22
  producer and you could...
• 3:24
  Potentially get your investment back plus some so full disclosure. I am now one of the producers of this movie
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  So see what I did there In other words, I gave a fairly small amount so that I could say that line and and it was as satisfying as I had
• 3:35
  hoped and and now suddenly I feel the need to I don't go look at sports cars and
• 3:40
  Hairplugs and maybe some sort of an oversized gold chain, but I digress So let me get to the interview
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  but I highly recommend you go check out the we funder page at the very least because they have a really a really nice trailer that
• 3:51
  talks about the movie as well as the platform and go find Jeff and Aurora on
• 3:57
  social media. And on that note, if you happen to be listening to this episode
• 4:00
  on the day that it drops, which is Wednesday, July 19th, I'm going on their
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  production company's Instagram at St. Norma Jean, S-T-N-O-R-M-A-J-E-A-N,
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  tonight at 7pm Pacific time to do a live interview with Jeff and Aurora to talk
• 4:15
  in more detail about the project and the mental health aspects of grief and loss
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  and a whole lot more.
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  So I think you will absolutely love this interview, their energy.
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  And I truly hope and I can't wait for this project to get the funding that it deserves so
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  that this movie will get made and,
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  they can make more movies and I can afford those those hair plugs and I can lean into my role now as a
• 4:36
  big time Hollywood film producer.
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  Let's get to my interview with Aurora and Jeff and occasion their three-year-old, Faye.
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  Music.
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  ♪ Come on in and take a seat on the virtual couch. ♪,
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  Yeah, so even as you're starting to do this, the crowdfunding for making a movie,
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  where do you even go to get the message?
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  Well, apparently, so we have two friends. We did this physical theater workshop thing in LA
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  and met Esther and Mariah, who are,
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  they used to, they have a lot of experience in crowd investment campaigns for media,
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  like they helped with The Chosen and a bunch of other.
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  I saw the Angel Studios vibe in some of the people that you're working with.
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  Yes, yeah, that's where they were working. Okay, oh, that's amazing.
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  And so, from their experience, they've seen that the only ads that tend to show
• 5:27
  any sort of return are Facebook ads.
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  Okay.
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  Because any, like. Isn't that just people's parents though? Yeah, it's because like,
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  but that's also who's investing, right? Oh, yeah.
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  Like, who has any money? Kids on TikTok are like, invest? In what?
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  Cryptocurrency? Do you have like an NFT for this? Exactly, yeah.
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  If it's not like crypto, they're just like not interested.
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  If it's not crypto, it's skin care. Or like some weird random thing you can buy, you know?
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  My aunts and uncles are on Facebook, and so that's gonna gain traction with them, I guess.
• 5:56
  Hey, that's really funny.
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  Aurora and Jeff, welcome to the virtual couch. Thank you. I'm so excited. Thank you.
• 6:02
  This is like, I'm giddy about this. You were on, it was like episode 50 and 51. Yeah, like early on.
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  I know, isn't that crazy? And I think that this will be somewhere in 380-something episodes.
• 6:11
  Wow, congratulations. And I sometimes don't even want to reach out to you,
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  because sometimes I think that you don't know that I use your song at the end
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  of every single episode. No, we listen to your podcast regularly.
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  Are you serious? Oh, yeah, totally. But your song is the greatest.
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  It's wonderful. That one is, and I have people comment on that all the time.
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  So that's where I almost think, if Aurora finds out, what if she says, you know how much you owe me for that?
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  Because I don't even know. We've come to collect, don't we? Oh yeah, that's right.
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  Is that an intervention?
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  Is that what this is? Yeah, exactly. All right, that's fair.
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  But no, I'm really excited to have us all together.
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  This will be fun. I know, it's so nice. Yeah, yeah. So let's jump right in and talk about the project,
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  and then maybe see where it goes, because I am so fascinated.
• 6:51
  When you started podcasting, did you have any idea that it was gonna be such a huge part of your job?
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  None, none at all, zero. As a matter of fact, I really say, look at this,
• 6:59
  look how you just turned it on me now I'm being interviewed.
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  This is not too good. He's really good at that. I'm genuinely curious.
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  He doesn't do it on purpose, but he is very good at it.
• 7:07
  No, I, because I mean, as creatives, you know, who knows where we're going to end up finding our niche.
• 7:13
  Still searching, yeah.
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  But as a therapist, you know, professional therapist, like that doing really well, then all of a sudden,
• 7:19
  like at what point did PoggySX go?
• 7:21
  Okay, so, and I can edit this out if it sounds too egotistical.
• 7:24
  But I've been this ultra runner,
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  been my personality for a long time. And so I've been listening to podcasts since
• 7:29
  the very beginning where I had a little SanDisk player and I would rip CDs and
• 7:33
  the mp3 files and and I would do anything I could to get audio onto these little SanDisk that wasn't music. So then I could listen while I would run for a
• 7:41
  long distance. And so then I used to think, oh someday I think it would be fun
• 7:45
  to have a podcast. And I had a five episodes of Bald, Bold, and Beyond with a
• 7:50
  a friend of mine long ago.
• 7:53
  He had the equipment and then he was funny, but then once we got two or three episodes in,
• 7:58
  I think that he realized, oh, this is what this is. And he wanted to go a little more political.
• 8:01
  And I just wanted to be hilarious and talk about being a dad. Because at the time I had a humor
• 8:05
  column in a newspaper about parenthood and that sort of thing. Yeah, for like 10 years that I had
• 8:09
  that. Yeah. And so, so then I was like, oh, I will go away from podcasting. And so then I become a
• 8:14
  therapist and then I thought I need to do a podcast. And it really was to promote my, it was.
• 8:19
  It was funny, it was gonna be to promote my online pornography recovery program,
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  but then as soon as I put out a couple of episodes, I thought, I don't wanna be the porn guy.
• 8:27
  I don't want that episode, right? So then I think I've maybe done four episodes
• 8:30
  in eight years on that.
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  And so that was really the main reason why I was going to do it, was to advertise my program,
• 8:36
  and it was gonna mainly be probably about pornography recovery.
• 8:39
  And then I just started just loving everything about podcasting, and yeah, so now here we are,
• 8:43
  seven, eight years later, and it's like, one published book and courses,
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  and I don't know, I've interviewed a couple hundred people, and it's been phenomenal, it really has.
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  And then, anyway, see now I feel like, oh, I'm about to sound egotistical.
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  But it's been so fun because they get referrals off of the podcast and that's been phenomenal
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  to have people reach out and share that they wouldn't have gone to therapy
• 9:02
  had they not heard Mental Health Normalized,
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  which I think goes into, when you guys were talking about the reasons to do this project,
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  you had talked about, what was the word you used?
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  You talked about three reasons to do it. Oh, representation and about grief.
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  So, okay, see what I did, Jeff? I just took your turn to me and I just flipped it right back.
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  Well, I'm going to come back because I want to ask you a question.
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  It really is interesting. Well, yeah, we're happy to talk about it.
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  So that, but that representation thing. And so the more I just started talking about mental health topics and then it took off pretty fast, which I didn't anticipate that.
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  I had the equipment for about a year and a half before I did one because I was scared of the, I don't know, that it wouldn't be good or go well.
• 9:42
  Yeah, putting it out there. Yeah! And I still, for the first 20-30 episodes, I was almost...
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  I don't know if embarrassed is the right word, but when people would say,
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  oh, you got a little podcast. That's adorable. It's so cute.
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  Now I have to talk to my assistant's assistant. I'm just kidding.
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  Is there, there's no way you have the bandwidth for like all the people who must contact you
• 10:02
  because of the podcast. There's no way you have the bandwidth to meet with all that, right?
• 10:05
  No. And so I was joking about the good problem to have, but actually I can't complain about this to
• 10:09
  anyone because I feel like I do have a wait list and I get, it is about 10 to 15 referrals probably
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  a week. And the part that breaks my heart is it will be people and I'm not even kidding that say
• 10:19
  they feel so heard and seen and understood and then they'll say things like we're on the verge
• 10:24
  of divorce and my husband thinks that he could work with somebody like you. So you know it's
• 10:29
  like the princess Leia help me Obi-Wan you're my only hope. Yeah and so for years I tried to just
• 10:36
  see I was seeing 50-60 clients a week and trying to get the podcast done right and I had to learn
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  and we're choking up boundaries out there.
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  I haven't had to learn about them.
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  And I still am not very good at them at the time. Yeah, because when somebody says,
• 10:50
  but I think you could really help, then I think, well, I want to, you know?
• 10:53
  Yeah, that's it. And you have, I mean, BetterHelp, for example.
• 10:56
  You've done your advertise, BetterHelp. So like, are there other ways that you can refer people?
• 11:01
  We've got a visitor to the podcast. Fifi, you wanna say hi? Hi.
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  Daddy, can you watch with me? Oh no, I'm gonna talk to Tony.
• 11:09
  Do you want to talk to Tony with me?
• 11:11
  No. She's so cute. I was hoping when we did this that we would get visitors, so this is perfect.
• 11:16
  Yep, this is our first visit.
• 11:17
  Well, so it's funny that you say that. So the BetterHelp stuff is great, but then I try now to,
• 11:22
  have, so I've got a couple of assistants that help me. So we've been trying to say, okay,
• 11:26
  this funnels to these four podcasts about parenting or these six podcasts about marriage
• 11:31
  communication. And then I've got a marriage course and a online recovery course and a
• 11:35
  parenting course, and I'm coming up with a faith journey course. And so I want to be able to point
• 11:40
  people to the resources if anything yeah and then I have referrals to other
• 11:43
  therapists and so I try to give people a lot of resources yeah and yeah yeah no I
• 11:49
  mean that's hard you're providing resources you're providing like yeah yeah like opening the door to people to say hey mm-hmm,
• 11:55
  okay there's a world out there where you don't feel like this every day or you
• 11:59
  know those kinds of things and so or I mean wait is it we can't narcissism yeah
• 12:03
  that's you dry like that one's gone in I mean that one now anyway yeah I don't
• 12:08
  get interviewed this is really fascinating because it's very uncomfortable to talk about myself.
• 12:14
  But that one was because I don't know that one was I had a very intentional goal to then everybody
• 12:20
  throws narcissism out there constantly. But then narcissistic personality disorder is two to four
• 12:25
  percent of the population. But then the more I work with couples and people how emotionally immature
• 12:31
  we all are until we're not. And so that was really the message I wanted to get. And so the waking up
• 12:35
  up to narcissism, air quote, was me waking up to my own emotional immaturity and narcissistic
• 12:39
  traits and tendencies, or somebody waking up to those in their relationship, and then
• 12:43
  being able to get the right tools, because I think nobody really has the right tools
• 12:47
  to go through relationships until they go through crap, and then they have to go find
• 12:52
  the tools, and then they have to put the tools into place, and those are uncomfortable, and
• 12:55
  nobody likes to be uncomfortable.
• 12:57
  So that whole waking up to narcissism was such an intentional thing, was that?
• 13:00
  We're just laughing about literally going through that together on our own.
• 13:06
  And you have to and that's the part that just it kills me that people think that they shouldn't
• 13:09
  have problems or they shouldn't have struggles in their relationship but you know they are going to
• 13:14
  happen and then that's where people either go find the right tools which goes back to the
• 13:20
  that I feel so bad if somebody resonates with something that I put out there and then they say
• 13:23
  I think this guy could help.
• 13:25
  And then I say, well, here's a couple of podcasts. Go find a therapist, good luck.
• 13:29
  Well, yeah, and I think what you're offering to people and what you're representing to people
• 13:33
  is not like I am the answer to your problem.
• 13:36
  It's there are resources and tools and this is the research.
• 13:40
  I think it makes sense that they're drawn to you because you're good at what you do, you're a good host,
• 13:45
  but you're not trying to create this I have the answers persona at all.
• 13:48
  And so you definitely don't need to feel bad about that.
• 13:51
  No, you're very kind. As a matter of fact, another course
• 13:53
  after I get through the faith journey one
• 13:54
  is I'm creating one that I want to just call your personalized treatment plan.
• 13:58
  Because I think that, I really do feel like people are gonna buy courses and books
• 14:01
  and they're gonna give them a little bit of this and a little bit of that.
• 14:03
  And they're gonna listen to podcasts and they're gonna go to a therapist and they're gonna do a life coach
• 14:06
  and they're gonna see movies and they're gonna, and all of that's gonna start to play into their self-care
• 14:11
  and what it feels like to be them. And I'll bring it all on as long as they're working on it.
• 14:16
  Because one of the things I'm starting to talk about a lot more is that working on it isn't just being.
• 14:20
  You can't just like, well, I'm here and that might sound dismissive out of context,
• 14:24
  but I think so many people are saying,
• 14:26
  well, I'm willing to stay in the relationship, period, but then they're not really looking to improve,
• 14:32
  and you're not gonna, I don't know, get all these thoughts about that, too.
• 14:35
  But we're here to talk to you guys, too soon, about grief. I really wanna know, though, about,
• 14:40
  because I think that just even the video on the, it's not a GoFundMe, I found it, WeFunder, okay.
• 14:46
  The WeFunder site was really good.
• 14:48
  I really enjoyed it a lot, but I wanna know what led you to this project.
• 14:52
  And I feel like I'm one of those guys, right? I get seven minutes on entertainment tonight or whatever.
• 14:56
  Tell me about your, what was your muse? Is that what you guys, is that what we say?
• 15:00
  Yeah. Well, so it was like a couple of different things added up to this moment.
• 15:06
  So Jeff's very first screenplay he wrote was a short film.
• 15:12
  That was, many years ago, inspired after a close friend of his lost his wife to cancer.
• 15:18
  And he didn't know how to show up for this friend. Wow, okay.
• 15:22
  Because I didn't know, like, I knew there was nothing I could say or do to make it better.
• 15:26
  And so I kind of just backed off and gave him space. I didn't know how to hold space for him and his emotions and what he was going through.
• 15:33
  And so I really just backed off.
• 15:35
  And, you know, I would say things like, let me know if there's anything I can do.
• 15:38
  But like, that, I knew that wasn't helpful.
• 15:41
  And that all booking that did was like satisfy my own guilt.
• 15:46
  Yeah, I got rid of my discomfort.
• 15:47
  Right. Yeah, exactly. And so we finally my cousin, who's just a little bit younger than me,
• 15:54
  she passed away about two and a half months after his wife did.
• 15:57
  And I realized, man, if it's not about saying the perfect thing,
• 16:02
  it's about just being there for someone. Right.
• 16:04
  And that that when you're experiencing grief, that you need connection to other people
• 16:11
  in order to cope and get through that. And so I called him and I apologized
• 16:16
  for not being there for him.
• 16:18
  And we met up and we talked for like a long time. It was like two and a half hours
• 16:22
  about just what could I have done, how he was doing, and then what was helpful and what was not helpful.
• 16:29
  And talking about that, I was like, this is such an interesting idea for a movie
• 16:33
  because we all know people that are experiencing tough stuff, right?
• 16:39
  Whether it's grief or trauma or whatever. And knowing how to show up for them is.
• 16:45
  I don't know, it's just, it adds to our ability to be friends and connect and like all that.
• 16:50
  And so the big idea was, how do we show up for someone when they've lost someone that they love?
• 16:55
  And then as we like kind of started to develop the idea, it also transformed into this like,
• 17:00
  well, when someone has lost their forever person, or whatever that is, how do they move forward
• 17:07
  with their lives without moving on?
• 17:09
  And how do they open themselves up to that?
• 17:11
  Yeah, because then in 2020, a dear friend of ours passed away from cancer at the age of 28,
• 17:17
  just like beautiful, wonderful person, gone.
• 17:20
  And then staying close with her husband and watching him navigate the grief
• 17:25
  and then starting to date again and all of that and realizing that, wow, there is so much stigma Yeah.
• 17:33
  Around that. Yes. That's literally what you hear people say.
• 17:37
  Sometimes to the person, but it's usually behind their back.
• 17:39
  Like, oh, well, don't you think it's too soon? Absolutely.
• 17:41
  Or I wonder if it's too soon for them. Do you think they're ready?
• 17:44
  Like all these people, all of us who have no business whatsoever casting judgment on this person who's gone through a hugely life
• 17:52
  altering traumatic experience.
• 17:53
  Yeah. And we're we're asking this question like, well, is it too soon for them?
• 17:57
  And they have they have to ask that question themselves. Like they don't need us.
• 18:00
  And they are somebody that sat with those people for hours and hours.
• 18:04
  It breaks my heart because they at times are ready to. but then feel guilty and bad and what do other people think?
• 18:10
  And even will my loved one feel bad from beyond the grave? All those things.
• 18:14
  So many things. It's so complex.
• 18:17
  Because they've died and there wasn't like a divorce or separation or like a growing apart.
• 18:23
  Because they just died, it often feels like you're cheating on them or you're not honoring them
• 18:28
  or remembering them or you're betraying that love and it's so many emotions to process.
• 18:33
  So that was like the meaning part of it And the practical side of it was last year,
• 18:38
  we made the goal of, okay, in 2023, we're gonna make our first feature film.
• 18:44
  And as independent filmmakers, there's often, there's always risk involved.
• 18:48
  And so you go to what's the, how do I mitigate my risk? And that's- Investors' risks.
• 18:54
  And investors' risk, right?
• 18:56
  Yeah, that's what I mean, investors' risk. And that's doing films that are in genres that sell well.
• 19:02
  Oh, yeah. So horror sells the best, and then rom-coms sell well as well.
• 19:07
  And you don't have to have big names, it helps, but you don't have to.
• 19:12
  You can make them for a lot less money than if you write a superhero movie.
• 19:16
  Right, yes. You can't really make that on your own, right? So that was kind of the practical side of it, it was like, okay, so what if we write
• 19:22
  a rom-com?
• 19:24
  And I'm like, well, how do we make a rom-com that matters to us, that is contributing to
• 19:30
  our communities to the planet in some way.
• 19:33
  Yeah. We love rom-coms, but often- We do love them. Yeah.
• 19:36
  The obstacles that pop up in rom-coms are often lack of communication.
• 19:40
  We're like, we'll just talk to each other. They're not promoting healthy relationships.
• 19:44
  And people really latch onto those. Yeah.
• 19:47
  And think their relationships should feel and look like that. Right.
• 19:50
  Okay. You just said a perfect word because I was thinking that those frustrate me so
• 19:53
  much and it's because I want to do the reaction videos as a therapist to them.
• 19:57
  If you assume good intentions there, or that sort of thing, then it wouldn't make for a very fun movie, I guess.
• 20:02
  Yes, the conflict, exactly. The conflict would be there, and so.
• 20:06
  And obstacles, right? Yeah, and so, from a practical standpoint,
• 20:09
  So our movie, Too Soon, is about a young...
• 20:12
  We've got a sister. Mom, can you help me? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, we can open your applesauce.
• 20:16
  Okay, true story. Do you guys eat those applesauces? They do.
• 20:19
  I don't really eat them.
• 20:20
  You're not over them. Oh, okay, because I say, those were not there when we had little kids,
• 20:24
  and I think I would have gone insane with those. Got a little space pouch.
• 20:28
  You do get sick of them. Do you? You know what I mean? Yeah, like, this is our third kid,
• 20:31
  so it's been years of making buy on kids' snacks, and that's not my top kids' snack anymore.
• 20:38
  Okay, that means we lost. Cheese puffs, though. She's fussed for life.
• 20:43
  Okay, there's so many things that I want to say. I took some notes even of, okay, I will calm down.
• 20:49
  And going back a little bit, Jeff, to what you were talking about earlier too,
• 20:52
  the what to say to that friend. And I just, I have to share that.
• 20:56
  So I did 10 years in a career I didn't really care much about.
• 21:00
  Then I go back to grad school in my 30s and early 30s. And so I literally take a class, I think, on grief and loss.
• 21:05
  And then one of my neighbors, close neighbors, his wife passed away.
• 21:09
  And then we were all kind of outside one night and people were just saying how sorry they were.
• 21:14
  And I did that, that, hey, let me know if I can do anything.
• 21:17
  And then I just thought, oh, this, we just talked about this in class.
• 21:20
  And so I just said, hey, so what's it, what's it like? I mean, what, how are you feeling?
• 21:23
  And then he just talked and talked. And I just thought, this is like phenomenal.
• 21:27
  Because, because I didn't want, it was uncomfortable for me,
• 21:30
  but then I thought, well, that's a me issue.
• 21:32
  I mean, it's probably a lot more for him. And so I thought that was so, so wild.
• 21:37
  And then you guys said a couple of things too in the, so we talked about the representation matters, but live your life.
• 21:42
  Jeff, you said any conversation about death is a conversation about how we want to live our lives now.
• 21:47
  Oh, that one's, that's good. And that's not from us.
• 21:50
  That's from talking to all these widows and widowers.
• 21:52
  That's from- From talking, yeah. And we, so when we decided on this idea early on,
• 21:58
  working on the script, Jeff discovered a podcast called Dating After Death.
• 22:01
  I went and found it when I saw in the, yeah. And I haven't listened to it yet, but I want to.
• 22:04
  I recommend that for anyone to listen to. I want to have her on my podcast.
• 22:08
  Oh, she's amazing. Yeah, we can connect. She's amazing. and I highly recommend it for anyone because...
• 22:18
  All of us, whether you have gone through that loss or not, all of us are connected to people who have.
• 22:23
  And we all will eventually lose someone very close to us who matters deeply.
• 22:28
  And what I learned from it was, I learned so many things, but the theme that I started keeping track,
• 22:35
  and there's like 50, I can't remember, there's 50 something episodes right now,
• 22:39
  she has three seasons, and I've listened to every single episode,
• 22:42
  and something that every single person on that podcast has said in one form or another was because of what I've gone through, I now have the courage
• 22:53
  to just live my life the way that I want to.
• 22:56
  I now see what doesn't matter and what does, but I don't have time for the stuff that doesn't matter.
• 23:02
  I'm like, yeah, how empowering is that, right? Yeah, it's really, really powerful.
• 23:09
  It seems like Tiffany sort of attracts people to her circle who are working through things,
• 23:15
  and they're like putting in the hard work to process everything they're going through.
• 23:20
  And so they've got really healthy boundaries and they really, oftentimes they're young widows,
• 23:26
  widowers who have children or careers, like all these things, or both, and all of the above,
• 23:30
  and they don't have time to put up with the crap.
• 23:35
  And so they just, they know when someone is not trying to be helpful,
• 23:40
  or they know exactly the type of person they wanna date, and if that person's not putting in the work,
• 23:43
  they're not gonna give them the time of day.
• 23:45
  That would be amazing, because when I'm working with people
• 23:47
  that are coming out of just unhealthy relationships
• 23:48
  and then they're repeating patterns, or they're giving that sort of thing,
• 23:51
  but that makes sense if that just causes them to say, I'm not putting up with anything, then okay.
• 23:57
  I do think, and two more tidbits that I've learned. Things that we thought, oh, if I'm around someone
• 24:03
  who's lost a spouse or a child, I shouldn't bring that up, I shouldn't talk about that,
• 24:08
  because I'll make them sad. which that can happen, that can bring up emotion.
• 24:13
  Time and time again, we've heard people say the things that they appreciate most,
• 24:16
  are when people ask them to talk about the person who's passed.
• 24:21
  Because they want to talk about them. They want to remember them and keep those memories alive.
• 24:28
  And being able to speak about their lives or answer questions about them, people taking interest
• 24:33
  in what was your husband like?
• 24:34
  Or what was your favorite thing to do together? It's a big misconception that those of us
• 24:39
  who haven't gone through that have, is that, oh, well, if I bring them up, it'll be sad, right?
• 24:45
  And in reality, it's, and I, so I think sometimes that can come from a place
• 24:50
  of wanting to be considerate, but it's just genuinely misinformed.
• 24:53
  Yeah, because those people, I mean, again, as a therapist working with that clientele,
• 24:57
  often they don't, they're worried they'll forget about them.
• 25:00
  Yes, they want to preserve, they want to honor, they want to, they're trying to find ways
• 25:04
  to keep them alive in their memory. Yeah, exactly.
• 25:07
  You also said something I thought was so good with the people talking behind the person,
• 25:11
  but that part where is it too soon? And I've been reading this book called Nonviolent Communication.
• 25:16
  Have you heard of this?
• 25:17
  It's a- I've heard that term before on that book. It's so fascinating,
• 25:20
  but it's somebody making an observation and a judgment.
• 25:23
  So I observe somebody doing this, and then I'm making the judgment that they shouldn't be doing that.
• 25:28
  And now if I go ask them, and I've already deemed that they should not be moving on,
• 25:33
  now if they say anything other than, you're right, I shouldn't be moving on,
• 25:36
  then that person even gets to say, See, they're not even doing it the right way
• 25:40
  or they're not being honest with themselves.
• 25:41
  And I, as you were saying that, Aurora, I think this area that would be so,
• 25:46
  people would be so guilty of that because I'm observing you dating already
• 25:49
  and I'm making the judgment that you should not be yet.
• 25:52
  I don't think you should. So now if I'm gonna ask you, well, tell me about why you're dating
• 25:55
  and you say anything other than I don't think I should be, now I'm gonna, you know, I get to say
• 25:59
  you're not even being honest with yourself, which is hard.
• 26:02
  One widow that we've been talking with, She sent us initially just like an email of thoughts.
• 26:09
  And one of the things, summarizing that she said was everywhere, like.
• 26:15
  Where I go, I'm a reminder to people that they don't actually have control.
• 26:20
  Yes. And that someone in their life is going to die, and that they can't control that,
• 26:25
  and they don't like that. Yep.
• 26:26
  And what a horrible burden to put on people.
• 26:30
  It's so interesting to say that, yeah, because that's the, because I mean, I think a lot of people, they want certainty so bad.
• 26:36
  Yeah. You know, I was joking about that, not joking, but creating like a nice faith journey course.
• 26:41
  And I think as I work with more people that start to really question their faith.
• 26:45
  The people around them are saying, well, wait a minute, if you don't say it's exactly how I think
• 26:49
  it is, then that might mean that it may not be the way I think it is and that may be scary.
• 26:53
  And so therefore you're wrong. It's very, not just threatening,
• 26:57
  but like the ground issue. Life alter. Yeah, it is.
• 27:00
  It makes me think of, I know you've talked a lot about the stages of faith. Yes. It's, you know,
• 27:05
  whether even if you detach it from spirituality, just from a secular standpoint, like stages of
• 27:11
  of emotional maturity, you could put it in that context.
• 27:15
  Like I always call it, just in case, because I want to take that,
• 27:18
  because that was very well said, I'm joking.
• 27:20
  Like I always say, or stages of emotional maturity. No, that's brilliant.
• 27:24
  I did one where I did, one of the podcasts I enjoyed the most was I talked about,
• 27:28
  it was called something like, why does everybody else know what to do with my life?
• 27:30
  And I took the stages of faith, and I mirrored them with, and I called them stages of life.
• 27:34
  So I feel like there was the stage three of life, it's like this is how you do it, period, in a box.
• 27:39
  And then stage four is when you don't feel like you fit in the box and you're,
• 27:42
  you're, you know, you're kind of angry. And that stage five is life is full of mystery and paradox.
• 27:47
  And then when people really embrace that, then it can still be scary, but it can
• 27:50
  also be really beautiful too, but then it threatens the people that are saying,
• 27:54
  but it has to be this way.
• 27:55
  Right. That's all right. I can talk for days about that.
• 28:00
  Okay. So in Aurora, you said, I like this too. You get one life to live and don't want to waste time worrying about what other
• 28:05
  people think, live it the way you want to live, love the way you want to love.
• 28:08
  So I mean I started when I heard that part too. I thought okay. Is this a topic that.
• 28:13
  Means so much more. I was trying to get creative and I'm not, I don't have a lot of depth with the creativity so I thought, am I close?
• 28:19
  You wrote, for 10 years you wrote.
• 28:21
  It was like, hey, I don't know, one of the kids blew out their diaper, you know, I'm in public, we don't have a backup. I mean, humor column was easy.
• 28:29
  You were a writer in a humor column for 10 years. I didn't know that. That's amazing.
• 28:33
  But that, because I feel like there's just so much more underneath or with this topic maybe.
• 28:39
  Yeah. It's definitely like the themes that we are learning from talking to all these
• 28:45
  widows and widowers, those are relevant to all of us, right? Yeah, I think there's,
• 28:50
  there's huge judgment in how people love. Yeah. I mean it's it's political, right?
• 28:57
  That's how it's people have such a strong hold on what they think it should be, how people's lives and family should look, and yes it's just the I mean
• 29:10
  and personally from my experience in my relationship,
• 29:15
  and relationships before that, but also in people that are close to me,
• 29:19
  that I've had the privilege of getting to know how they love.
• 29:23
  So he's breaking in.
• 29:25
  Yeah, do you wanna come sit with us? She's so cute. Yeah, come sit with me while we record.
• 29:29
  So the relationship, oh, and her name?
• 29:32
  This is Faye. Faye.
• 29:34
  Hi Faye, say hi. Faye's gonna be three in two weeks. Say hi to Tony's podcast.
• 29:39
  Take care of the podcast.
• 29:41
  Can you say hi? we can insert a robotic voice yeah there we go yeah anyway yeah i i just think there's like the way to love or the so in the
• 29:53
  worlds of emotional immaturity i do like to often point out that life's,
• 29:56
  this zero-sum game so that that people then feel like there's if you have a way then you must think my way is wrong or if my way isn't
• 30:04
  and it's and there aren't people don't allow enough space for there to be even multiple opinions which would be
• 30:10
  since we would have multiple opinions, since we all are completely different
• 30:13
  and come from different circumstances or backgrounds.
• 30:17
  But I think that can be so difficult for people to accept. Because yeah, I think it does, it threatens,
• 30:23
  if that is your identity, then it threatens your identity.
• 30:26
  And so of course your brain is gonna try really hard to fight that because it needs to have an identity.
• 30:34
  Well, like you were saying, like with Widows and Widowers, they represent the reality of a different identity.
• 30:40
  That could possibly thrust on someone at any point, right? And so they don't, people like to be reassured
• 30:48
  by widows and widowers that it couldn't happen to them.
• 30:50
  Or that there are warning signs at the door, and all these kinds of things.
• 30:53
  Well, did they have a family history of cancer?
• 30:55
  Were they sleepy when they got in a car? You know, it's just like they ask these questions
• 30:59
  that they shouldn't be asking because they're scared, and they wanna make sure it's not gonna happen to them,
• 31:03
  and it's like, well, guess what? You can't. You can't.
• 31:06
  A couple years ago, a year and a half ago, you know, my daughter got in a really bad accident,
• 31:09
  And that rocked my whole world.
• 31:12
  I mean, because that was a, I mean, you know, people were saying, well, I'm sure there was a reason.
• 31:18
  And I was like, oh no, I don't like that one at all. Or it happened, and now, you know.
• 31:22
  What's that button right there?
• 31:23
  This is a fidget cube. And then, you wanna play with it?
• 31:27
  So fun. That is the secret to the universe right there, Faye.
• 31:30
  Is that the song? Yeah, that's the song, yeah. It keeps me focused.
• 31:34
  But it's like that part where when people would say, yeah, well, you'll find out the reason why,
• 31:40
  you know, and that, because that will make sense.
• 31:42
  And that's one where I felt like I was well into my, oh, I don't think everything makes sense journey,
• 31:47
  but that's really difficult for people, right?
• 31:50
  This is a big ball that shows how many chocolates that I ate in between clients, yeah.
• 31:54
  And it's interesting because some people, that's a big rock, huh?
• 32:02
  For some people, that's so reassuring that like, God made this happen for a reason, right?
• 32:08
  And for other people, that is the opposite of reassuring. That's enraging, right?
• 32:13
  Oh, yeah. And so, yeah, it's fascinating that, like allowing someone to be, I don't know.
• 32:21
  Like my parents got divorced when I was a teenager and a lot of thought around me at the time
• 32:28
  was that like this happened for a reason. Like, yes, God orchestrated this to happen.
• 32:33
  And I was accepting of that, but like that really.
• 32:38
  Felt really orchestrated part is pretty messed up relationship with God and all
• 32:42
  those kinds of things and yeah and I do think like believing in a God that can
• 32:47
  give reason to things that happens makes more sense to me than believing in a God
• 32:51
  who makes things happen for a reason. Yeah no I love the way you said that because that's where even with this accident I think I've been pretty open
• 32:58
  about saying that I'm more of a fan of it happened and then God is with us versus you know God wanted this to happen.
• 33:04
  There's a book called On Being Certain that is it is a phenomenal book but it
• 33:08
  comes with an existential faith and a faith crisis. Free? You know, I don't think the author would appreciate that.
• 33:13
  Saying that, but it's basically saying that we're kind of reacting to situations in real time, and then we're trying to make sense of them.
• 33:20
  And where we think that we're making these, you know, this isn't a there's no free will kind of a vibe, but it's that we really are.
• 33:26
  There's like 2000 processes happening in our brain at any given second that are reacting because this is the first time you've ever been in this situation, in this moment, reacting to something.
• 33:35
  But then we now want to make sense of it because we need to.
• 33:37
  So that one can feel like a lot of uncertainty.
• 33:40
  Yeah.
• 33:41
  And but then I like the whole vibe of the book is kind of once you accept that
• 33:45
  then things happen, then it's what do you agree with about them?
• 33:47
  That can be a good story, I think.
• 33:51
  I mean, we are storytellers and we love stories, but like it is dangerous that as humans, we'd like to make everything into a story like, oh, this
• 34:00
  is happening.
• 34:00
  This happened because this or because this happened, that's going to happen. Yeah.
• 34:04
  And and because I have this tendency that I'm going to fail We love to craft stories out of things that don't have like connected sense, yeah, exactly our child's good
• 34:17
  to tear this apart.
• 34:18
  No, this is great. You can play. Thanks for watching.
• 34:21
  I think there's a... Maybe we could do a second show. Here, Faye, you can take this.
• 34:25
  Here we go. Hey, Faye, Faye, do you want to watch Bluey?
• 34:29
  Bluey?
• 34:31
  Speaking of positive modeling, that's what we're talking about.
• 34:35
  I don't know if you've experienced Bluey.
• 34:36
  I have not. Bluey is game changer. I saw a headline about how the dad on Bluey was the best model for the modern male.
• 34:45
  Oh, really? It's pretty great. Yeah, it's pretty great. I do need to explore this.
• 34:49
  Come watch right here, come on.
• 34:52
  Okay, so it's interesting too, on the grief part, I have to tell you, two experiences
• 34:56
  when I was a brand new therapist that I,
• 34:59
  it's really funny because I had a woman come into my office and her husband had passed away,
• 35:03
  and I mean, I'm talking, I wanna think that I was two or three months as a therapist intern,
• 35:08
  so I had no idea what I was doing,
• 35:10
  and she had not been in a great relationship or marriage, and so she brought in guilt of almost feeling a bit of relief.
• 35:19
  And so that was pretty interesting, but I loved working with her through it.
• 35:22
  And she went on to get in a healthy relationship and live happily ever after, which was nice.
• 35:27
  And then I had another person that was, he was dating right after the passing of his wife,
• 35:31
  and was getting so much judgment, but then he taught me a valuable lesson
• 35:35
  of he had been grieving her with a terminal illness
• 35:37
  for four years, right?
• 35:39
  So, I mean, that grief and that griefing process had kind of been happening for a long time,
• 35:45
  but nobody wanted to give him that grace.
• 35:47
  And that was hard.
• 35:49
  An interesting thing, too, that I just didn't know until researching this and talking with people,
• 35:57
  is that because it is such a huge change in your life.
• 36:03
  People are, they're like, who am I?
• 36:07
  And even if they have a healthy sense of differentiation from their partner and a healthy partnership,
• 36:14
  that's still like half of their life.
• 36:17
  And just, and so there's this huge like grasping for who am I now and how do I feel like a human?
• 36:25
  And human connection is a huge part of that.
• 36:28
  So much. It's like, yeah, it's like, it is what we are, right?
• 36:32
  We're either connecting to ourselves or to other people, but it's all human, like we need it.
• 36:36
  And so that was something I just didn't even, yeah, it wasn't on my radar at all.
• 36:40
  But I think is a big way we can support people and is like...
• 36:45
  Who are you now? How can I like, tell me about you. Yeah, what is kind of blown my mind is, so I work with so many people that are in maybe these more
• 36:53
  emotionally immature relationships and you give them the right tools and you hope that then both
• 36:57
  of the people will become emotionally mature but oftentimes they don't and the relationship will
• 37:03
  end in a divorce. But if somebody's really working hard on themselves and they do find themselves
• 37:08
  often in a better situation, a better relationship, but there's a period where then when you're
• 37:13
  you're working with somebody who's single where all of a sudden yeah I'm saying you get to be whoever you want because they've lost their sense
• 37:18
  of self or identity and then you realize that we get in relationships so young
• 37:22
  this is where I always say we're we're codependent and meshed because we are
• 37:25
  because we're afraid and we're we're we have these abandonment wounds and attachment wounds we don't want to be alone and we don't know how to do it the
• 37:32
  right way so then all of a sudden we've been maybe in a in a maybe not the greatest relationship or the relationship sounds like it's ended too
• 37:39
  soon and now we're now even a therapist I was guilty for a while saying to somebody no now you get to be whoever you want to be but you realize we get.
• 37:46
  Our sense of self through external validation and if they didn't have it from their parents or so then they're just saying okay so like where do I
• 37:55
  start I'm like you can start wherever you want like how cool is that right and they're like, okay, what?
• 38:00
  Yeah, like, you know, I'm turning two. Am I gonna be a skydiver?
• 38:03
  Yeah, totally. Or a pianist? Like, what are we gonna do? And I'm still sitting here like a goof,
• 38:07
  like going, sure, like that'd be great. But in reality, yeah, go and do and then start to find out.
• 38:12
  But you're asking somebody that doesn't know what to do and then they have had this other person,
• 38:17
  especially if they, I mean, the name of the project is so perfect, Too Soon,
• 38:21
  then they are just left just hanging, I would imagine.
• 38:25
  Yeah, totally. We're really excited about it. The more we talk to people from this experience,
• 38:31
  the more feedback we get on the script.
• 38:32
  Like we've got, you know, what is it, when I was reading the script,
• 38:36
  providing feedback, and it's really reassuring to see that we are on the right track,
• 38:39
  and it's a romantic comedy, so there's a balance of, we don't shy away from the grief.
• 38:46
  Like, we think there will be tears, you know. We have people.
• 38:49
  The characters have tears. Yeah, for sure. We think that there will be tears in the audience.
• 38:53
  But then at the same time, we love, you know, we use this quote on our refunder page,
• 38:57
  Laughter through tears is my favorite emotion. I think that's like, oh, I like and just the idea that we often use humor to cope and.
• 39:05
  It's amazing talking to people who have lost their spouses who have sometimes the darkest sense of humor
• 39:12
  and they can't share that.
• 39:14
  Because people around them get so queasy when they share these hilarious things
• 39:19
  because it's too soon. It's too soon to tell that joke. Yeah, but it totally makes sense.
• 39:23
  It's like, why aren't we letting people? And part of that is just in our Western culture,
• 39:28
  we are so disconnected from death and we have such an unhealthy view of it.
• 39:32
  Yes. They were trying to avoid everything about it at all costs.
• 39:35
  Oh my gosh, yeah, we're just like...
• 39:38
  I have to tell you one of the funniest things, and I still...
• 39:40
  Boy, this is going to be a... This is the perfect episode to admit something that I think about often,
• 39:46
  because it came from someone who told me that this is what they would do,
• 39:50
  and they had lost someone very significant to them.
• 39:53
  So when somebody says to me, and they say, you know, and then we lost my grandpa two years ago,
• 39:57
  my first thought is always, did you guys ever find him?
• 39:59
  I mean, that came from someone that, you know... It was a tribute to this person. I think that all the time and I don't say it because and
• 40:12
  I've also had a couple of people, one of my favorite clients who her mom had passed away
• 40:17
  and she said that every now and again if somebody was just kind of being a jerk, you know, and
• 40:20
  they would bring up certain things, she would just say, oh, I wish I could, but my mom's
• 40:24
  dead, you know, and she would just laugh and she would say, and I can't, you know, that
• 40:28
  would just silence the room. I had a friend who lost his mom when he was really young and
• 40:34
  when people make your mom jokes that you make a lot, you know, it's like, yeah, my mom's dead. Yeah.
• 40:39
  One person shared with Tiffany the host of dating after death that you know in like 2020
• 40:45
  I think it was where like how it started and how it's going was a really trendy thing to like show a picture house
• 40:50
  That's something started and then how it's going. Okay, and all this person took a picture like with,
• 40:55
  Yeah the first the picture was like at their wedding and then the how it's going was like we're doing this at like next to
• 41:01
  his And she sent it to either her sister or sister-in-law and they laughed and were like, you can't
• 41:09
  show that to anyone, you know.
• 41:11
  But being able to laugh about things, being able to talk openly about things, that's where
• 41:16
  we get to a more happy relationship. And I think that's like, you know, a number of people rightfully so have asked us like,
• 41:23
  well, why are you telling this story? Because neither of you are widowed.
• 41:26
  And for us, it's like, well, first, our first responsibility is to do our part to communicate
• 41:33
  with people who have that life experience, have them read the script, make sure that
• 41:36
  we're not doing harm and that we are telling a story that represents them accurately.
• 41:41
  But I think in a way, for us, we feel like, well, that's what we can give is we can give
• 41:47
  a story that's going to, that will tell their experience or one, one version of that experience
• 41:55
  in a way that hasn't been done and that will hopefully alleviate some of the burden that
• 42:01
  they experience and hopefully just like help them feel empowered and like the dating and
• 42:08
  finding love again if that's what they want is okay that like maybe we can alleviate a
• 42:12
  little bit of that guilt and that pressure that they have to carry.
• 42:15
  It's funny one one whatever we talked to he's just like oh I'm so excited for when this
• 42:21
  is done I can send it to all my family and be like I wondered that this is what you shouldn't
• 42:25
  This is how I feel, you know, and I was like, oh good.
• 42:29
  That's what we want.
• 42:30
  Yeah. Like it is a love letter to people who have lost a spouse and what we hope like that is able to like,
• 42:36
  what the future holds for them is to be able to find love again and move forward with their lives
• 42:40
  while still honoring their lost love.
• 42:42
  But it really is for everyone else to.
• 42:47
  Tear down their judgment and prejudice when their friends and family members.
• 42:51
  Start dating someone new. Like it is not our business to tell them whether or not it's too
• 42:55
  soon. It's not our business to decide who and when and how they should start dating. It's up to them
• 43:00
  and they've already been through the worst thing. Why would we put them through more crap when
• 43:05
  they're starting to date? It's an us thing is what that is. And can I say that to the part where you
• 43:09
  guys haven't been through it, but can I tell you one of my favorite conversations with you both
• 43:13
  was, I don't know if you remember, but it was because I loved your anxious taxidermist film,
• 43:16
  The whole concept, everything about that was amazing.
• 43:19
  And we had that conversation around anxiety. Do you remember that?
• 43:22
  And from your home? And that was, I don't know, I've thought about that.
• 43:25
  You guys were so good about wanting to just know everything that you could about anxiety.
• 43:30
  And different ways it shows up.
• 43:31
  And I know you were talking to a lot of different people and I felt very honored to be able to talk about that. So.
• 43:36
  You were hugely helpful. Hugely helpful. But that was really, I mean, I could see,
• 43:39
  I felt like part of Hollywood, you know?
• 43:42
  Because you guys were diving in there so good. It was like inside Scoop.
• 43:46
  So, well, two things.
• 43:47
  Not only did we figure out a lot of our own mental health issues by digging into that,
• 43:52
  but also we are making this movie because it's a more contained story,
• 43:56
  but we hope to have a successful first feature so that we can then raise more money
• 44:00
  to do the Anxious Tax films.
• 44:01
  Okay, good. Yeah, do a feature version of that. As a full length feature.
• 44:04
  I just watched the trailer again before you guys came in today,
• 44:06
  and it's like the songs and everything. It's so good.
• 44:09
  Yeah. So, that's just a bigger project, right? It's a bigger animal to try to tackle,
• 44:14
  Which is part of the reason we were like, okay, well, let's get the practice, let's make a feature.
• 44:19
  But we can't just be like, well, let's just make.
• 44:22
  $10 million movie. Yeah, well, there's that. No, what I meant was, for us, creatively,
• 44:28
  and I think from our goals as career creatives
• 44:33
  is to make things that are contributing in some way.
• 44:38
  Stories that matter. Because at first, we're like, well, maybe we can just do
• 44:41
  a cheap little horror genre film, sell that, and then it's easy, but then what do we have to show for that?
• 44:46
  It's like, well, we can make cheap horror genre films.
• 44:50
  Cheap horror genre films. Cheap horror genre films.
• 44:52
  That's not what they're really called, but we can make cheap horror films and that's,
• 44:55
  what we'll continue to do, but yeah.
• 44:58
  So this, in a lot of ways, this film, it's not a musical, but it has all the musical
• 45:03
  elements because the guy and the girl, they come together to write music together.
• 45:08
  They're music people, right? Yeah.
• 45:10
  So they kind of formed this ad hoc music therapy group.
• 45:13
  Oh, that'd be nice. And she had given up her career of performing and was now an elementary music teacher.
• 45:21
  And he's a music producer, but he's having a hard time like...
• 45:24
  Getting back to work. And so she's like, hey, I gave this up because that was right for me at
• 45:28
  the time, whatever. But like, I want to do this now. I want to process what I'm going through
• 45:33
  by writing music. Yeah. Do you want to do that with me? Yeah. And tapping into that idea of like,
• 45:38
  wait, this is the only life I have. Okay, yeah, then I'm gonna do what I want to do. And that's
• 45:44
  make this music. So we've got those musical elements. We've got the like, mental health
• 45:48
  We've got the dealing with some heavy stuff while also using a lot of humor.
• 45:53
  They each have a young child, so there's that part of it, too, of how do you go through
• 45:58
  grief and support your child going through grief and then start dating and all those things.
• 46:04
  What you said there, too, that I appreciate is I will have people that are going through
• 46:08
  a lot and then they don't want to make, and I get it, they don't want to make certain
• 46:12
  decisions because I joke with one of my clients where he says because it's still got the
• 46:16
  the stank on it, you know, of whatever he's going through.
• 46:18
  But then I've been like, but if we're waiting for the stank to get off,
• 46:20
  I mean, you kind of have to do the things, you know, not even to get the stank off,
• 46:24
  but it's like, and invite the stank to come along with you because that's part of you now.
• 46:28
  And so that's really been helpful. You gotta get it, you gotta air it out.
• 46:31
  Yeah, you do, yeah. That one person you talked to, like, you're never gonna be ready for your first day.
• 46:35
  It's gonna be awful, but you gotta do it. Yeah, and that's that part,
• 46:38
  the acceptance and commitment therapy, I love this book called The Confidence Gap.
• 46:41
  Is that the Russ Harris, right, says that when you know the myth is when I'm confident I'll do the thing you got
• 46:47
  to do the thing get confidence and that's so that's such a that's like that's life yeah we always joke we started saying this working on the
• 46:55
  anxious taxidermist like if I didn't need a therapist it wouldn't be so hard
• 46:59
  to get a therapist yeah like the reasons you need a therapist are what make it
• 47:07
  really hard to like pick up the phone yeah to send a message to you know that
• 47:12
  first appointment where you're like, Hey, these are my issues.
• 47:15
  Can you help me? And I get some of those first. I mean, that's the.
• 47:19
  Problem with not getting to see as many new clients, because that is like, what a joy or an honor
• 47:24
  when you get somebody in here that they finally say these things.
• 47:28
  We were both now, we're therapists. Okay, come a long way. Yeah, yeah.
• 47:32
  And it's great. It is, right? Yeah. Yeah.
• 47:36
  But where were you going? I think I derailed you. Oh, I don't remember.
• 47:39
  Okay, here I've got one more quote that I wrote down. This is Aurora's quote.
• 47:42
  The film industry is notoriously chill.
• 47:44
  That was sarcasm, right? Yes. I'm going with the strike, just this past week.
• 47:52
  The Screen Actors Guild just went on strike a couple days ago.
• 47:55
  So what is that? What happens? I don't know enough about it.
• 47:58
  So essentially, anyone who's in the union, as a writer or as an actor,
• 48:02
  can't work on any film or TV projects.
• 48:05
  Which, that's anything you see on Netflix or movie theaters.
• 48:10
  So production, physical production, when you're filming, is shut down.
• 48:14
  For me, it's studios. And development, yeah.
• 48:17
  So the purpose of that is they're trying to get unions, or not get unions, to get the big studios,
• 48:23
  so the really powerful people in Hollywood, to come up with better terms for how they can work.
• 48:29
  AI is a big concern. Residuals have really disappeared because of streaming.
• 48:35
  I saw a video on that on YouTube and it made so much sense of doing eight episodes
• 48:39
  of something and then you're done versus the, yeah, it really made a lot of sense.
• 48:43
  Well, and like background workers get paid the same day rate that they got like in the 90s
• 48:47
  or something, like it's bonkers.
• 48:49
  And a lot of people think like, oh, when they think of actors that are working,
• 48:52
  they think of giant people. Yeah.
• 48:55
  Millions and millions of dollars, right? But this really, these strikes are for the people
• 49:00
  who aren't there, right? These are for the little guys like us.
• 49:03
  And we're not part of either of those unions, but we are really excited to see what happens for them.
• 49:08
  And if the strike is still ongoing, after we've secured funding and we're moving
• 49:13
  into production, we can submit for a, what's it? A waiver. A waiver to be able to come, because we're not,
• 49:19
  because we're an independent production, that could happen.
• 49:21
  But it might be resolved by then, or it might be whatever we figure.
• 49:24
  Everyone would love for it to be resolved quickly, right?
• 49:26
  But we do want our project to be a SAG project because we want to be able to bring on some
• 49:30
  more well-known actors to like, bring some publicity and attention.
• 49:35
  And those actors would be SAG actors. Okay, so we should talk about,
• 49:39
  because you have three little kids and they're being amazing and incredible
• 49:42
  and you're in the area for a while so I can bring you back over and over again, right?
• 49:45
  Yes, of course. Because I would love to dig a little deeper on some of the things we've talked about today too. We love it.
• 49:49
  Okay, good, so talk about the project and how you, because I did the investment thing
• 49:55
  so now I'm a part owner of your company? Do you know what it is?
• 49:58
  You own part of the movie. I won't have a more then. Okay, so that felt cool. So, yeah.
• 50:02
  Yeah, so the way it works is, so traditionally, if you're working in a studio model,
• 50:09
  the studio creates a deal with a director and a writer and they say, okay, we'll give you,
• 50:15
  here's your budget, and a producer.
• 50:16
  They green light a project and give it a certain money. Green light a project, here's five million dollars
• 50:19
  to make your movie. Five million. If I was just doing a film, it would be at least...
• 50:23
  No, our friends are making a movie for Lionsgate for two million dollars.
• 50:27
  Oh wow, that's true. So yeah, and in the case of independent financing, it's just like a startup.
• 50:34
  And that's why we're going through this company, WeFunder, because that's what it is,
• 50:38
  is anybody can invest in these startups through there for as little as $100. That's so cool.
• 50:42
  Yeah, and with independent film, the way it works, long story short, is you raise your money,
• 50:49
  you raise $500,000, you make a movie, and then your goal is to sell that movie,
• 50:55
  through distribution, distribution rights for more than $5 million.
• 50:59
  Right? $500,000. $500,000. Oh, $5 million, yeah.
• 51:03
  For more than $500,000. We're gonna get to $5 million. We're gonna get there.
• 51:05
  Okay, we'll get there. And there's all sorts of ways to do that because one distributor could pay,
• 51:11
  for European streaming rights for five years, and another distributor can also pay
• 51:16
  for 10 years of U.S. streaming rights for 12 years.
• 51:19
  So there's lots of different routes and that's like the long story of how you get an independent film,
• 51:26
  ultimately out there in the world.
• 51:27
  Well, what's exciting is, so because independent films are having.
• 51:33
  It's hard for an independent film to find an audience, right, to get it in front of people
• 51:37
  who want to see the movie. Because there's not, yeah.
• 51:39
  And so distribution deals have been like really bad over the last few decades.
• 51:44
  They've always been bad, yeah.
• 51:45
  Because if a film does really well in film festivals and people really like it,
• 51:49
  a distributor knows that they can make money off the film, but they also know that those filmmakers
• 51:55
  don't have any other avenues to get it to people.
• 51:58
  But what's happening recently is more and more indie filmmakers are finding success
• 52:02
  through self-distribution, through essentially marketing their film,
• 52:06
  advertising their film, and then making it so people, it's like a pay-per-view on streaming,
• 52:10
  but you have to pay $3 on iTunes or Amazon or wherever to watch the movie and people are trading profits that way.
• 52:19
  It does require a little bit of a marketing budget.
• 52:22
  That's the same thing that happens with these big distribution companies is they put in
• 52:27
  a lot of money into marketing a film and that often says...
• 52:31
  Like everybody's seen the Barbie TikToks and Instagrams, right?
• 52:34
  It's like almost too much at this point. It's like, okay, we get it.
• 52:38
  That's all, that's, you know, I mean a huge percentage of their budget went to that.
• 52:42
  I'm on my Peloton in my garage and we got this TV mounted and then it went, it did something,
• 52:47
  it cut off the TV show I was watching and then it brought up the Barbie thing.
• 52:51
  It was an advertisement and I clicked on it and then I dropped the remote control
• 52:55
  and I was locked into my pedals on my bike and so I couldn't get off and it played over and over like 10 minutes.
• 53:01
  Oh no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So long. So you've had enough Barbie pods.
• 53:04
  I'm a little scarred. Yeah, I would. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, that was the tangent.
• 53:08
  But I really like this concept though, the distribution model, the self. Yeah.
• 53:13
  This was like self-publishing in a sense. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah.
• 53:17
  Exactly. So either way. Either, yeah. So our plan and you can find all of it
• 53:20
  on the WeFunder page. Well, and I'll put everything in show notes.
• 53:23
  I'm gonna get this out later, right? I wanna get it out this week.
• 53:25
  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. Okay, because what's the deadlines and what?
• 53:28
  So, the way, you can actually keep the campaign open as long as, for up to a year.
• 53:35
  So, we, our big push, though, is this next month.
• 53:40
  And if we're able to secure enough of our budget to be able to greenlight and go into pre-production, great.
• 53:46
  And if we're raising money, but it's not enough the really green light, then we reassess
• 53:51
  if we're gonna do another marketing push and push the film date back.
• 53:55
  You just, you know, this is the first time we're doing it, so it's new for us.
• 53:58
  Yeah, and it's tricky because our film, we're planning to film in Utah because it is a lot cheaper.
• 54:04
  We've worked with the Utah Film Commission before and it's, there's just a lot of great resources.
• 54:08
  Well, you said something about like a 20% cash discount.
• 54:11
  Yeah. Like, do they really, they'll, so that's so, that's actually good for, wow.
• 54:14
  Yeah, if you get approved through them, yeah, if you spend $500,000, they'll give you $100,000
• 54:18
  Yeah, okay, so because the the film takes place over the course of a year,
• 54:24
  Well, just actually just over a year because you know, you meet the couple when they're just like yeah
• 54:29
  We haven't talked about the story at all. I feel like we should do that really quick. Yes
• 54:32
  Yeah, so yeah, Too Soon is about a young widow and widower who meet.
• 54:37
  At the funeral home for the day of their spouse's funeral. And we see them carrying other people's grief,
• 54:45
  we see them not being able to manage their own grief,
• 54:49
  all of this stuff, and nobody else gets it.
• 54:52
  And then they happen to bump into each other in a comedic way that I will not reveal.
• 54:58
  And then they connect, and they have this conversation where for the first time that we're seeing of their story,
• 55:05
  they can both just breathe.
• 55:07
  You guys played that I'm playing the female love interest. Okay, Jeff Jeff and I are co-directing it,
• 55:12
  Yeah, we figured it was a little too much for both.
• 55:15
  First to man. Oh, yeah. Yeah both be in front of the camera. So we're we're hoping to find a really great,
• 55:22
  You know actor that we can pull into this little awkward. I am NOT available
• 55:25
  Oh, shoot, Tony, they were going to ask you on your podcast.
• 55:28
  No, I said it's OK, but yeah. This was going to go viral. Podcast hosts, up and roll during recording.
• 55:36
  OK, but I can't wait to see you in that. That'll be fun.
• 55:39
  Yeah, yeah. And so it's exciting. I don't know.
• 55:43
  It's just such a unique, weird type of meet-cute for a romantic comedy.
• 55:48
  It's like, what is going on? We can pretty confidently say it hasn't been done before. Yeah.
• 55:53
  What's so awesome is that because they meet so early after their spouse's passings that,
• 55:59
  Romance is the furthest thing from their minds, right?
• 56:01
  And so it's all about they just learn how to show up for each other when everyone else is struggling to do that
• 56:06
  They're able to like cut through the crap and say hey, obviously, I know it sucks right now. I know you're having a hard time,
• 56:13
  What are you dealing with today? What's going on?
• 56:14
  What can I help you with? You know those kinds of things and and they're able to just connect like their first.
• 56:19
  The first time they talk they have a pity off where they're like, well, who's sorry?
• 56:22
  Who's story is more pathetic? Who deserves more pity?
• 56:26
  And where everyone else is walking on eggshells. They can make the jokes like, oh, where'd they go? Did you find them?
• 56:32
  Like, those are the kinds of jokes they start to make with each other,
• 56:34
  because it's like, oh yeah, I can talk to you about this, but I can't say that to my mom or to whoever, you know?
• 56:40
  And so then a couple months go by where you see them each alone trying to figure it out,
• 56:45
  and you know, the audience, we hope, is thinking like, man, if they could just get back together and talk again.
• 56:49
  And so there's a way they end up coming back together and meeting up, they choose to come together
• 56:55
  and show up for each other and form this ad hoc music therapy style support group.
• 56:59
  It really does sound like really, really good. I mean, it sounds amazing.
• 57:02
  Well, that's fun is like, so then because of how they meet the conflicts and the obstacles that you need to have
• 57:09
  in a romantic comedy for it to be cinematic, those are built in to the situation.
• 57:14
  Because obviously if they're gonna be spending all the time together and really like showing up
• 57:18
  for each other, supporting each other,
• 57:19
  there's opportunity for those friendship feelings those support feelings to turn romantic and when that starts to happen it starts
• 57:27
  to create conflict because not only is it too soon but what if people find out
• 57:32
  that I met you the day of my husband's funeral, the day of my wife's funeral,
• 57:37
  like what are people gonna say? They're inviting their giant elephants and they come along with them into every room.
• 57:42
  You know, and how'd you guys meet? Yeah, you know, all of them.
• 57:45
  There was a part that you just said, oh, so I often talk about these levels of intimacy,
• 57:52
  like we meet and we find each other attractive, but then really underneath it, there's these
• 57:55
  levels of verbal intimacy and then emotional intimacy, and you work up this ladder of intimacy
• 58:00
  and this research comes from this Dr. Skinner that I love.
• 58:02
  So this is why I always joke that every 80s movie worked because it was the, you know,
• 58:06
  it's your coworker and she has her hat and a ponytail or a ponytail on the glasses.
• 58:11
  Glasses? Yeah, it messes up the hair. But they've been talking forever and they really feel a connection.
• 58:17
  Yeah, so I feel like this is the ultimate version of that where they're developing that verbal intimacy.
• 58:20
  Like they're in their grief fog, that fog of like, the world doesn't make sense right now
• 58:24
  because I'm in the thick of grief.
• 58:27
  And so they don't even observe the fact that the person's attracted.
• 58:32
  Then eventually it's like, well, I mean, yeah, of course they're attracted, but they're my friend.
• 58:36
  Like, isn't that like, oh gosh, you should start dating. I don't know how I feel about that person dating.
• 58:42
  Oh, and what you said earlier, watching that is gonna be so lovingly frustrating as a viewer
• 58:47
  because you're just gonna want them to get, just come on.
• 58:49
  Yeah. That's what we were hoping for. We hope so, yeah.
• 58:52
  Yeah. Okay, so people go, go, order a piece of the film. Yeah, so you go to wefundr.com, slash too soon,
• 58:59
  and the way it's set up, it's the WeFunder helps you, you work with the, you get everything filed through the SEC.
• 59:06
  I know, that's pretty cool. Yeah. That's very fancy. You're a legit investor.
• 59:10
  And that's WeFunder's whole thing is to provide, like investing shouldn't be only available
• 59:16
  to the wealthy elite.
• 59:17
  Oh, I'm not gonna lie, it kicks up other projects and all of a sudden I'm thinking,
• 59:20
  well what else would I like?
• 59:21
  You know, I got my wealth already and I'm like, yeah. Yeah, oh yeah.
• 59:24
  Well, the SEC and there's one other agency, government agency, there's over 1,000 pages
• 59:29
  of regulations surrounding crowd investment and so WeFunder basically processes all that
• 59:36
  and makes sure that we're in line.
• 59:37
  So we've had an account, a CPA look at things and a lawyer look at things on our end
• 59:41
  and then they have their accountants and lawyers look at things.
• 59:43
  And so. So it's very official. It's very official.
• 59:46
  You do have to like enter your social security number or your DIN.
• 59:48
  And so it's all very square with. Yeah. And when does it, when does merch,
• 59:53
  you just mentioned merch, right? When's that coming? Merch will probably be happening
• 59:56
  during like pre-production and production.
• 59:59
  So our goal, so, oh, because what we were getting at is because it takes place over the span of over a year.
• 1:00:05
  We can't film in the dead of winter.
• 1:00:08
  I mean, there can't be snow on the ground. In Utah. Utah, yeah.
• 1:00:11
  Because we're filming in Utah, so we have to either film this fall,
• 1:00:15
  or we film in the spring.
• 1:00:17
  So ideally, we are able to pull together enough funding from enough folks to make this movie happen this fall. That's our goal.
• 1:00:25
  Okay. And you know, with the strikes and everything's going on,
• 1:00:27
  you know, we're just hoping it all comes together.
• 1:00:29
  Yeah. And if that doesn't happen, then we'll look at next spring into the summer.
• 1:00:32
  Yeah. And what's cool about WeFunder2 is, you know...
• 1:00:38
  People a number of people have said to us like oh, well, I only invest I only had $100
• 1:00:43
  I know that's not much but if 5,000 people invest $100 that's half a million dollars
• 1:00:48
  That's more than enough money to make the movie we want to make.
• 1:00:51
  And then when it makes the five million then you get you wet your beak a little bit with that, right?
• 1:00:55
  Yeah. Yes. Yeah We want like we want to return our investors money because Like we want it to be a successful project and that will that means that we get to make more movies
• 1:01:06
  If you make a successful movie that returns profit, like, that's huge.
• 1:01:10
  That's huge and it becomes a calling card where we can continue to make more movies
• 1:01:14
  that talk about the things we wanna talk about.
• 1:01:16
  And I think, too, our hope is that all those people who don't know how to show up and feel awkward
• 1:01:23
  and are like, oh, I wish I could, let me know if there's anything I can do.
• 1:01:27
  Guess what, there is. You can put $100 towards a movie that's going to tell your friend's story.
• 1:01:33
  Like, that's a way you can help your friend. Because we've been connecting with the grief community,
• 1:01:38
  there are a lot of people, like you can read comments on our We Funder page
• 1:01:42
  about so many people are like, this is my story, I'm a widow, I'm a widower,
• 1:01:46
  and they're investing in this movie, and that's so beautiful to us,
• 1:01:50
  and humbling, and exciting, because it means we're getting it right, we hope.
• 1:01:55
  And it makes us want to reach out to all of their friends and family,
• 1:01:58
  and say, go support them!
• 1:02:00
  Yeah, you're supporting us, but if they want this to happen,
• 1:02:03
  support them in that.
• 1:02:04
  We want to make this movie for them, and they're the ones who are making it happen so far,
• 1:02:08
  and that's beautiful, and we'd love to give support to people who want to support them.
• 1:02:13
  Yeah, I think that's part of the reason, another reason we were excited to do this WeFunder model,
• 1:02:18
  because it's similar to what Angel Studios has done with The Chosen, those kinds of things,
• 1:02:24
  where everyday people can get behind a message,
• 1:02:27
  and a story that matters to them.
• 1:02:29
  It really does feel kind of cool to do. I'm not gonna lie, as a human being,
• 1:02:32
  It was kind of fun to do that.
• 1:02:36
  And that's beautiful because, I mean, if we could fund our movie off $100 investments,
• 1:02:40
  that just shows that there's a big audience that wants to see this movie.
• 1:02:43
  That's not like a negative thing at all, that's a positive thing.
• 1:02:45
  That's it too. Yeah, it's wonderful. So I was gonna say, so would you come back on
• 1:02:49
  and let's talk more about, we didn't even hit the stages of grief.
• 1:02:53
  We didn't hit, you know, let's do a part two.
• 1:02:56
  Yes, of course. And then we'll maybe get into that themes of all the stuff around one life to live,
• 1:03:01
  and how we want to live our lives and all that good stuff.
• 1:03:03
  Yes, of course. Okay, so you know, Aurora, that every single time at the end, I say, now taking us out, per usual,
• 1:03:08
  the wonderful, the talented, sometimes now on TikTok, or Aurora Flores, her other song is wonderful.
• 1:03:13
  There's a part of me that feels like, how do we top that with you right here?
• 1:03:15
  She's gonna sing it live! I was not gonna ask you to do that,
• 1:03:18
  although one time we were at a, I think I went to one of the TNT plays,
• 1:03:23
  and you performed up front, do you remember that? Yeah, yes. I was.
• 1:03:26
  Fangirl in that. Amazing. I was. That's amazing. So maybe while you're in the area sometime,
• 1:03:31
  that would be fun to do. That would be super fun, yeah.
• 1:03:33
  Would you be comfortable seeing a tiny bit of anything?
• 1:03:36
  Like, I mean, we get there, we can. We can't see anything from Too Soon yet.
• 1:03:40
  Like, most of the songs are still in development, but.
• 1:03:43
  Yeah.
• 1:03:44
  What about from Intersection?
• 1:03:47
  I don't know. Oh, this is awkward, by the way, because I can't sing anything.
• 1:03:51
  So does Jeff put you, you know, up to this thing?
• 1:03:53
  Oh, like, monkey dance, monkey dance. That's 100% what he's doing.
• 1:03:56
  It is? OK. This is what it feels like. You're singing it. You go, this is what it feels like to be all alone.
• 1:04:06
  See, but I can't sing like, it sounds like. Yeah, it's hard for me to like, you can hear I'm like,
• 1:04:11
  ha ha, like singing like I'm a Disney character instead of like actually singing.
• 1:04:16
  That was worth it right there, the two of you kind of doing that.
• 1:04:18
  So the next time you come on, we will bring a full orchestra in.
• 1:04:22
  Perfect. And then we'll do that. So thank you so much for being here.
• 1:04:25
  I'm dead serious I'd love for you to come back on, dead serious, dead.
• 1:04:27
  Music.
• 1:06:32
  Don't explode Allow the understanding through to heal the legs and.
• 1:06:39
  Music.