Latest / The Good Builder Podcast / The Daily Dose #298 | Where AI Actually Helps Builders (And Where It Quietly Hurts)

Transcript

The Daily Dose #298 | Where AI Actually Helps Builders (And Where It Quietly Hurts) · The Good Builder Podcast

• speaker-0 (00:57) Good morning and welcome to the Good Builder Podcast. Today's episode is a really special one, actually. And it's one that we're going to talk about, one of the most popular topics that all you guys and girls want to know about out there, and it is AI. And specifically where it actually helps builders and then where it quietly creates problems. Now, I've just come back from a trip from Melbourne and I've been speaking with the two guests that I'm about to have on. Well, I speak to them all the time. But We're about to have a bit of a discovery session around where AI actually fits in the piece, when you should move to it, and what's the right type of resource for your building business. as I was saying, I went to Melbourne not too long ago and I spoke with some of the biggest builders in Australia, as well as some, you know, some of the smaller ones, but very good builders. And I also had a really good catch-up with Gavin Sloan from Live Chat Monitoring, who's a really interesting fella. He's got the live chat widget that you see on all the builders' websites across Australia, and he's got a very good view of what everyone's going on out there. Now, the interesting thing about this, and why I wanted to talk to these two legends I'm about to bring on, is that a lot of the data we're getting back, a lot of the feedback we're getting back is people are turning to AI and then turning away. And to Gavin's point, about 80% of businesses. Have gone the full AI route for their estimating, their live chat, their marketing, trying to rope their social calendars, all that sort of thing. And then they're all pulling it back in-house or getting resources to help AI actually get the job done. That tells you a little bit about what's happening out there. Now we're gonna have a chat with the wonderful Anisha and the awesome Niane right now, who we're welcoming in about what they're seeing in the builders that they work with. So welcome to the Good Builder Podcast. Anisha and Ian. How are you? How are you? speaker-1 (02:47) Thank you for having us. speaker-0 (02:48) No worries. It's always good having you guys and thank you for seeing through my little rant previous to this podcast and then my little rant gone to this podcast because I was like, whoa, I've got so much to say about this sort of thing. But yeah, you know, like to kick off with you guys, like let's if you wouldn't mind, I might start off with like AI for you guys and scale up smart. Do you do you guys use it yourselves just day to day? Just general sort of question? Is it something that you use in the service you can or within yourselves? Yeah, I mean, you know, as I think any marketing department I think in the world it has is starting to kind of use A A AI as well. But in terms of like scale up smart, yeah, looking into a few kind of partnerships as well of how we can maybe use AI, not completely, but integrate it with clients and kind of help them make their life a bit more faster. But not completely. Because there's always a catch. And you always need that human touch. We always think the human touch. But using AI, I think, for us. I mean, we we do get a lot of stuff done with with AI, but at the end of the day, you're always in the human to like sign off or To be honest with you guys, we find the same. It was a really, as I said, it was a really interesting discussion when I was down in Melbourne because I'm gonna be really honest on this podcast. When we started The Good Builder, I went I went through a phase where I went full AI. So we were getting AI to answer my own emails, we were getting AI to do cold outreach. And I, you know, over time, it actually It was really interesting for me because I thought over time AI should get better, but there's a lot of training you ought to give it. I'm not having a dig at AI. But there also, one of the things that I picked up in Melbourne and one of the things I actually experienced was that, you know, it can hallucinate, it can find different facts and different things and send it out there and then kind of feed itself. 'Cause what happened actually to me at the Good Builder, which I just wanted to put as an example out there was I was putting cold outreach emails looking for people to sponsor us here and, you know, to ensure that we can keep going and deliver the news and all that sort of thing. Now it started to factor in services that we never provided into the emails that went out to people. And as the emails advanced, it even expanded on these services and I was like, whoa. And so we've pulled everything back to sort of human and as exactly as Nyan said, just using it as a tool. this might be a question for Anitia actually, or or Noyan, any one of you two can can certainly answer this. But you know, what sort of are you seeing that sort of truth in AI happening out there in the builders and trades that you're you're currently dealing with now? Do they come to you sort of with a not AI first mentality, but they're trying it, they're trying to find a way through the work. Is that something that you're also seeing? It's some something we've seen is that here you know, most of it is kind of like noise where it's like it's not that AI isn't like cape capable. It's that it's the way that it's being packaged to builders on this traits. I think there's a fundamental kind of dis disconnect there because I think builders are completely like disconnected on how AI can actually help a building business work on a day to day basis. You know, you've got a lot of Because the you've got the soft software companies or even some coaches as well to kind of say, Okay, you know, you you've got to use AI, you've got to do this because if you don't use AI, you're gonna go or throw some some some stuff like that. Yeah. But and what happens is mobility, they download certain tools, you know, like chat chat GPT or some something like that. And, you know, they spend the whole weekend trying to figure out, okay, let's let's get let's get this plan, let's get this workflow. But AI doesn't know how your business works. AI doesn't know how customers respond to you. AI does not know the exact specifications of what your customers want from you. Only you can do that. Only you can talk to them and get that. So in terms of but yeah. But but here's where it kind of where the noise kind of dials down a bit. Is that, you know, Like AI doesn't know how much this client will want you to charge for this S or this, you know. He like A AI is a good tool to use to support your business and how you do your work, but it cannot replace what you can do with your clients. It cannot replace the relationship. It can't replace that face face to face. You sit down with the client and understand, okay, this is how I want my house bill, this is this is why I want my S complex bill. So it can never be replaced over that. But yeah, to my point early earlier, I think there's a bit of a disconnect between those trees on all these days where they think that it's the future where okay, we can just hand it over to AI. It's it's not the TS. Yeah. No. I I've actually been talking to a to to a few of your points, Niane, I think you're completely right, mate. I've actually been talking to a few builders around them using AI and one of them actually said to me, and I thought this was pretty interesting in a way, he said to me, and he's tried it in various formats, he didn't want AI to do anything for him. He thought that people are better at doing it. I agree. The medial tasks, even not the medial tasks, the stuff that the relationship stuff that you talked about, Niane, talking to customers, all those sorts of things. He said to me, what AI is actually good for in his business is actually an overview look at the entire business and for his own reasoning. So he'll get him to look at the financials. He'll get him to sorry, get the AI, not him, I'm calling it a person now. This is getting weird. you know, he he gets it to check his financials. He gets it to check the scheduling of trades. He gets it to check, you know, different things like that. To give it a second set of eyes, give him a second set of eyes really and go, You're okay, you're on the right track, rather than actually getting the work done. And to your point, Niane, I I I'll I've been thinking about that for a little while when he said that to me, and this was a couple of weeks ago. And to your point, I think I made the I think you made the penny drop for me, man. Because you you talk about, you know, the relationship stuff. He was talking about excuse me. He was talking about you know, getting an AI to answer telephone calls and an AI voice, you know, answering a telephone. Now to me, I I've actually tried it and I've put a few videos up on social. I thought it was pretty cool, so I demonstrated it to our community. But the more I spoke to it, it c in the end, it cut me off. And I felt like you have no emotional intelligence at all, you know, when I'm trying to talk to you about anything. I actually don't want to talk to you. And it didn't want to talk to me. It wanted my name and my number and to get me off the phone. And I thought that was really interesting. So I think there's some really interesting takes in what you said, Nayan. And it's kind of out there in the field a little bit for some of them smart builders doing it as a as a check. Yeah, and I think AI, I think most people don't realise A AI is AI AI will do what you type in as a prompt for AI to do. That's it. If you don't include a set of instructions specifically, AI will not go beyond that and it tends to hallucinate. They tends to do stuff outside the box. I I think we spoke about this earlier earlier as well. Yeah. so I think AI is good, but as you said, that bind that that you spoke to, I I think he's got it right, but I think he's not completely nailed on the head use using AI to answer his calls, but to help him in his business, to understand how his business works. In my opinion is financial. I think that is a good user we are. Yeah. Yeah. I I think so too. And and and in our business at the Good Builder, for example, I'll tell you the way we use it, just to give like it's quite interesting. As I said to you guys, first of all, I went all in. I was like, this is the answer. I'm gonna need no staff. We're gonna get out as much content as possible. It was horrible content, number one. But the the thing that really struck me, you know, with this gentleman was that, you know, to your point, Night, when you get down to the nitty gritty of actually what needs to be done and executed and how a customer needs to be treated and all those sorts of things and the way you talk, even little things in the way you do, maybe a hashtag, the way I do a little flex and a heart when I finish my posts a lot, people know it's you. It takes away, you know, a lot of that human element. Yeah. It was just that human cardips of it. It is. Yeah. That's it. And until it catches up, which I think is a gonna be a very, very hard thing to do. Yeah. I I think it it'll never sort of and and the in the entire context of actually serving a customer and particularly in a building business, you know, trying to build would be very, very, very hard with that sort of thing. And I don't general kind of audience, the general customs, I think they're kind of getting accustomed to identifying okay, this is gonna be AI. Like I'm talking to an AI and this content is AI. I think they've gone on a bit of what's what's the word I I think they've learned like spot when it's AI and it's not yeah. Look for the life and Yeah. You see it all the time. And and people it's I think it's almost like people have become almost like if they see that sort of stuff, they feel it's lazy. They feel you haven't put in the effort as well. So you've got to be very, very careful, you know, using it. Particularly I've seen a few builders use it on social, which is really interesting. And you know, I think that would be probably the easiest way to use AI in in a sense. But you I can always tell and it does a horrible job. when AI is used for social. You can just tell. And it really does. And even if you use it for imagery, graphics, things like that, typically what you get are really generic sort of stuff that doesn't match anything you know, about your business. And I think it detracts from it. one of the other things I wanted to ask you guys was in terms of sort of the builders that you're seeing and and we did touch on this, the ones that are coming through and working with you guys at the moment. What's what's typically their view on on using AI in their business? Is it something they're excited about, scared about, something you help them with? speaker-1 (12:52) so if if I talk about the builders, they there are builders who use AI. But the builders who are actually winning right now who use AI like across the businesses, it's how do I say this? If I break it down, it's like a good trade, how they treat a new tool. That's how I would say it. Like a laser level doesn't lay the tiles right. A nail gun doesn't really frame a house. you still need someone who knows how to do the proper work. speaker-0 (13:19) Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1 (13:20) So they they do use it, but then it's like they need the right guidance. They think they can just type something in and then they find a question and they put it on the internet, they copy that and they put it on Chat GBT. And then they repeat the same thing, right? They copy it again and they paste it on that. What it's needed to be done. And yes, the problem is solved, but then more problems come in. speaker-0 (13:42) Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you know the other thing, Anisha, that happens, and this was very interesting from this builder who went all in on AI, pulled out, I won't name them, not pulled out, but they're still using it as a tool. How you described is the funny thing that they mentioned to me, and there are a few in the room because we had a pretty good meeting, and they said we actually became as individuals more unproductive. And I was like, How How does that actually happen? And they said that there's so much that you can do at your fingertips with AI that you necessarily don't have to do. I do a lot of it. I just had a rant for about half an hour before we started this podcast and bored you guys around my rant of going down rabbit holes. AI is my vice that helps me do that. Yeah. And you can and he was saying to me what would happen is people go, I wonder if it could do this. And then they would start going down the path of trying to create or do something or make it do something they wouldn't normally do in their business, probably isn't foundational to their business, but because the technology's there, they'll have a shot at it. And he said they were working on things they never thought they'd work on, never completed anything, but was so distracted by the use of the two. I think it's very an interesting conversation. speaker-1 (14:55) Because there is no system underneath. There is no person actually checking the output. speaker-0 (15:00) No. No. And no real process to it, is it? You just go down rabbit holes. speaker-1 (15:01) Exactly. Yeah, you probably would save like twenty minutes of your day, like through Chat G BT to get the easiest thing, but then you don't really always get the response that you need. speaker-0 (15:15) No speaker-1 (15:16) You always have to know what exact prompt to do. 'Cause if you if you have a person working for you, you could get that person to do the thing, but then they could use their knowledge to kinda do the proper prompt and make it a bit faster. speaker-0 (15:29) Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1 (15:30) Yeah. And get the output they need. And then they could check it and if there's a mistake they could always change it. It's not like copy pasting and then going back and forth just wastes more time. speaker-0 (15:39) Yeah. Mm. Love it. Love it. Yeah. And I tell you, that is as we've alluded to in this podcast, I think that's the correct way to use it. Use it as a tool, humans to check. Now we touched on this a little bit at the beginning of the pod, but I just wanted to just clear it up for everybody. You guys know a lot about AI. you see it a lot in practice and things like that. We did chat about how you're using it internally, but In terms of like day to day your estimators, your admin team, your project coordinators, all that sort of stuff, how does you, how do you guys train your people in AI? Or are they using AI in a in a day to day capacity to help with the with the capacity of of builders that they're working for as well to help you guys be a bit more efficient? In terms of like how we use it, in like scale of smart, I think this is where they can conversations kind of get a bit big, but for us, AI touches almost like everything what we do. But it never replaces the person. It's always the person it's it's always the employee who has the final say. It's he or she who starts it and he or she who learns it. But AI is kind of sprinkled in the middle of that to just kind of help out and kind of push things forward. So in terms of like voicetimators for for example. Estimators they so they do all the primary costs and estimates together. But AI is kind of implemented through various tools to kind of double check just to just if the person is not sure if there's an error or not. I mean, we train our estimators on a weekly basis, but still we do tell them, okay, you can still use this tool to kind of check to be extra thorough. Like we you know you're good, but just check to see. thorough and we kind of integrate that into the three layers of thermosetic to that you know where so it kind of goes through that extra bit of security and kind of assuredness saying, okay, so this is ex generate to a T, right? Yeah. If a if a some yeah, if a machine learning mechanism doesn't flag an issue, that means it's one hundred percent. So we have a little bit of like a sh assurance on that side. But at the end of the day it always goes through a human being after it goes through an head. Yeah. So that it always kind of the bug kind of stops there. so for estimators it's kind of that it's very minor in terms of how A AI is being used. But we use a lot of AI for ad admin. So our admin team we use uses AI in a more broader kind of sense. Whereas yeah, whereas in terms of like time correspondence. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a huge kind of part where we in in integrated AI. So it makes life of people easier and it makes the coordination faster as well. And yeah, and also when we have a meeting, when they have a meeting, it's easier to kind of have and this is basic when we have a Google meeters where it's it's AI that takes notes. You don't have to go back and then our admin team you uses those notes and kind of creates the summary and plans for the next meeting and how the work is being done. So it's it's very kind of integrated into the world flow as well. But There's always a person who reads it, who adjusts the tone to kind of fit the whole business that they're working with. So there's always that. Yes, there's always that aspect. And let's say in terms of like project coordination, we use tools to kind of flag if there are any scheduling con conflicts, to flag any of those stuff, to really un understand what where the allocations is is needed. So if there's a project coordination, yeah, that's that's how our project coordinators kind of use that. So yeah. That's the kind of main three areas where we in integrate a a AI on on like a huge basis. But for the most part, we don't rely on AI on a heavy to do heavy virtual. We always use it to support. Not to yeah. To in to kind of enhance our work, but not to Replace it. Finish it. To replace it. Yeah. Yeah. No, completely. Completely. No, that makes complete sense. And I think it comes down to one of the things we've actually touched on in this pod, which is the context. You know, like AI it won't it like you said, Niane, it w it doesn't know what Mrs. Smith who's building with you is actually like, how she likes to be spoken to, what she's trying to achieve from her home, unless you provide it with that context and all that sort of thing. It doesn't know, you know, it wouldn't know the market conditions that you're actually going into. Like we we we did a few things where we were bringing in the NCC changes and different things into an AI chatbot. But it it won't tell you actually how to construct because it doesn't actually know how to construct the thing that's telling you to do. So there are a few you know, big gaps in AI. And it's it'll search yeah, it'll search the room and kind of tell you, okay, this this is how it's supposed to learn according to this source. Yeah. Just but it's not really, you know it's not really which is and it was completely to your point, Nayan. It's not speaker-1 (20:20) So speaker-0 (20:33) your source or or what's going on right now. Now I'm I'm gonna be a little bit cheeky here because I think you did answer it a little bit in that last question and I love the way you talked about it's it's doing those almost foundational things for you when you've got oversight. But for for a builder who wants to implement it into their business, what would be say three to five different ways that you think that they could Or you would recommend them to do it all. In terms of like if you're in a build building business, what I would say is, you know, let's let's take mark marketing for an example. Yeah. Let's take marketing for example. So let's say you're finding it hard to really maintain how or what kind of content you want to show your your potential leads. Yeah. So what you can do is, Right. So I I've I've done these kind of projects. So you can ask AI to okay, build me a portfolio. Build me a portfolio of how how I can present it to my clients. So you can build but you have to always feed the information to the LSG. For example, you can use a plat platform by cloud or claw. But if you input speaker-1 (21:32) Yeah. speaker-0 (21:40) the information into this tool and say, okay, this is the projects I've done. Build me a landing page which I can put on my website for my portfolio. It'll it'll do that for you. But you always check it before before you kind of hit the page live. But that's one way you can use it. And we can use AI, if you're finding it hard to kind of manage your workflow, manage your tasks. You can always in integrate an AI platform to kind of make things a bit smoother. You can always get modified saying, okay, yeah, you know, this this task is due. You have this this meeting. Because personally we met a lot of builders who miss a lot of meetings because they're either busy or they completely forgot. And you can use an A AI to always flag you saying, Hey, you you got a meeting at this time. Keep keep this time free. So you can always do that. I mean you do have it in like Goop Google meeting all stuff, but you can always get a platform that takes that that sends you a flag, So in terms of your admin, in terms of your general work schedule, in terms of your marketing, I think these this these a these kind of spots can really use AI to really enhance their work and also make their life a bit easier. Yeah, yeah. You know one thing that I do, guys, and and actually personally, I'd love to hear also from you, if you don't mind, one thing you do with AI. This is one thing I do with AI. After my rabbit hole of I'm turning the entire good builder AI and then pulling back out of that. The one of the best ways I found to use it, like you said, Diane and Anisha, like it's it's some of the basic stuff that takes a lot of time. I get to summarise my emails. I'm in Gmail, so I've got Gemini. I get it to summarize my emails every morning and night and arrange them from urgent to non urgent. Yeah. Like that helps me a hell of a lot. I don't let AI write the emails like I used to because it doesn't write like me and everyone used to go, what's up with me? What's up with ours? That's really weird. It doesn't never sound like that. But you know, I I use it for those sort of fundamental things that just help me from an administration point of view and to get a clear view, clarity for the day, really. Just clarity for the day to go, okay, what have I got on? What do I have to hit? And then at the end of the day, what did I miss? And what do I have to put on the agenda tomorrow? And then I kind of feel like it helps my mind, my mindset, and yeah, the work that I don't like typically doing. Yeah. I think I think we do something very, very similar. Is that once we have, you know, meet meetings either either in internally or with with with clients as well, something that we do is because we have this pretty long meetings, right? In two hours and you know, pre AI we had to go through each of those big meeting mates, you had both the recording and knockdown and everything. But now you just get the notes, you ask AI, okay, summarize this whole thing, gimme give me the important points so I can I can Yeah. So A AI has made things a lot easier in terms of like overcoming those time consuming kind of generic tasks. It's very useful to that aspect of it too. Yeah. And I actually reckon that is the safest way to use it. And it's really interesting because this podcast has gone round in a bit of a full circle, very similar to how those Melbourne builders went round in a full circle. So, you know, they they started off with AI and now they thought it was gonna help the world and or not the world but help them and and do everything for them. And then they've come back around like we have which we we really haven't. We're on the same path, but to the point of, hey, the fundamental things, the things that take your time, the things you don't like doing are the things that can help you with. what about you, Anisha? I'd love to hear what do you use AI for? Because you're a very savvy lady on a number of fronts. I reckon you've got one way of using it that I wanna know and I wanna use it that way. So how do you use AI? What do you What are you doing day to day for your work? speaker-1 (25:35) when it comes to me, I use it for a few things sometimes, even for the simplest things sometimes when my brain just doesn't process for the day. If it if I want something to like start off, 'cause I always have this thing where I need like a start, someone to start it or read a starting point for me to get inspired to go through the rest. Yeah. So sometimes I'm like, just just give me a bit of ideas, like, you know, just just spark my mind and I put in a prompt. And I'm just like, okay, if I need to do a strategy or something, and I'm just like, I need a starting point. Give me a start on somewhere. Yeah. And then it just it does give me a start. Like some, some are like honestly saying some are like dumb or stupid. But then there are some times that it gives me like a okay, I I can see this vision. I can see it. And from there I start and then I explore on my own mind. speaker-0 (26:24) Yeah, that's cool. I thought you sorry, I said no because I thought you were saying you're dumb and stupid, but you certainly aren't Anisha. But yeah, i I'm I'm actually very much the same. It's interesting that you you say that, Anisha, 'cause I I do the same thing. The other thing that I do, which is really interesting and off the back of yours, Anisha, is when I when we when our team writes articles, I f one thing I do sometimes if I'm unsure about the article. Or like what we're about to talk about, I put it through AI just to go, Hey and they kinda it knows our audience. I use Claude and I go, Hey, would this resonate with builders? Is it important for them? And it generally tells me, but sometimes it's a little too agreeable. And I speaker-1 (27:06) Sometimes if you need references too, like references for something that you write, I I normally ask if you can give me a few references, like links. So all you have to do is just click the link and see if the article is actually there, if it's real. Yeah. So if that's I use that a lot to get like links for references and stuff when I do read like something, like a blog post or something. speaker-0 (27:26) Are you guys searching on it at the moment? Are you using it to replace Google? Yep. I am. I actually don't use Google as much anymore. If I am looking speaker-1 (27:31) Yeah. I also don't know that I'm thinking about it. speaker-0 (27:38) Yeah. Yeah. I am currently using Google only to find find a place for for someone to go somewhere just to check the big news to see if people think that story time I use Google. Yeah. Same with me. It's it's really interesting the way we're we're using it. And I think I think most of the population are in that search sort of way the internet is. So to your point, Anisha, I think it is a very good reference search tool and it'll give you the information. And to everything that you both spoke about this entire podcast. It's what you then do with the information. You need to do it and get it out. But it's an easy way to consolidate your information. So now I might be putting words in bugs to your mouth and I am trying to the bottom of how you're using it in scale up because you've been very transparent, you know, how you do it. But when you when you've got a builder and you've got just say you're getting on an estimator or a marketing guy or now we have a video guy with you guys which is awesome and he's amazing everyone by the way but When you guys have been really open with how you use AI. Now when you get a build end and you're forming a team for them or your support people, does AI come part of that conversation when you're onboarding a builder and saying, Hey, this is how we use it? Or is it just sort of part of the process and something that you you you work as the team of the builder use every day and you don't necessarily discuss with the builder? speaker-1 (29:03) No, we are really transparent about it. so so we like Nyan said earlier, we do training with all our service staff, like every week. So to make it easier, like to make the whole process easier also we use a few AI tools that would help them. They do we have R and D departments, so they always do research that would help builders to make their life easier. Tools, just easy tools, not something that's gonna take over their whole system. Just you know, so they can integrate it to make things a few things faster. A few estimates like Nyan said, like to do the cost a bit faster. Cut the this, but end of the day, the employee goes through it the final stage and only provides it to the builder. So when it comes to stuff like that, we use AI. So then we do always mention like yes, these tools are there. speaker-0 (29:46) Yeah. speaker-1 (29:53) Are you interested in doing it? Or sometimes once they research and they get familiar with service stuff with the tool, they shoot an email to the builder saying, Hey, we kinda have this tool. Are you guys interested in exploring it? We could help you integrate it. And then, you know, they like hop on a call a few times. We had a few builders who are like, Yes, like let's do it. They're like so into it, they get excited when we tell them about all these new things. That's crazy. And then we just hop on like a quick Google Meet. And then we just show them, you know, okay, we do like a tutorial. This is how it's gonna work, this is how it'll make it easy. If you're not interested, that's totally fine. We don't push, we just let you know. And then they're like, Yeah, let's do it. Why did I think about it before? Yeah, it's always it's exciting to see how they react. speaker-0 (30:25) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's that's the thing. Everyone's excited about AI. Everyone really wants it, I think. I think what I wanted to do today was like, you know, you guys work with you you guys are are one of our partners that probably work with the largest volume of builders. You know, you work with a lot of builders. So you see a lot of what's going on out there and particularly you're privileged in your space because not privileged, but who you are, but in a in a way that Builders are coming to you when they need more work done, really, don't they? When they need resource. When they when they need they they know they need something to help them get more jobs across the line and and get the work actually done. So you'd have a you've already spoken about them a lot, but you've got some very unique perspectives on you know, how builders are using it and obviously how you guys are and and what it's good for. Yeah, I sometimes that we do initially is that when we do have the initial meeting bit potential kind of builder. What we do is we always ask them, do you use any tools in using tools for system? Most of them, I would say eight out of ten people the same or we don't use you know we don't use this tool for that. So then we say, okay, so we do use this, are you open to integrating it in your business? So it can be used as part of your business and can kind of be help can help you as well as help us as well. So that's something we do in the initial kind of meeting when we talk to them delicate. So we get them idea for what you want to get. So this is the kind of tools that they don't use this is what we can kind of intimate. So Yeah. Yeah, wow. You know what, thinking about it all actually I know that mathematically and those sorts of things, AI is very, very good. Like I think there's studies showing that it's better than humans. But it's better at humans at really, really logical tasks. Like really logical when it's black or white. Unfortunately, building's never black or white. It's always grey, isn't it? There's always there's never a job that's the same. You never turn up to a site and it's like, that's how it is. That's you know, one plus one equals two, that's it. You know, we're out of here. and and I I I I was gonna ask you guys and put you on the spot, but I I I don't know if I want to, but if you would answer this, where do you think AI is gonna be in like five years? you think it's gonna get there? Do you think it'll ever get to where it needs to be to do a human's job? I I I don't I don't have the answer. I I and I know that it's going to you know, get smarter and smarter as it feeds on more and more stuff. But one thing that Gavin Sloan actually said to me, and I've got a lot of respect for that guy, and he's worked very much in the AI space. So Gavin owns live chat monitoring here in Australia, big live chat. monitoring services I spoke about in the beginning. And he said one thing that no one's talking about is that very similar to what I said is that, you know, AI will eventually feed on its own lies. And I was putting out a few sort of comments and posts out there. 70% of the internet now apparently is AI-generated content. New content coming out comes through some sort of AI. Now the accuracy As we discussed, and even the studies that have been done is saying that a lot of it is inaccurate. But if it's self-feeding itself on this inaccuracy of information, Gavin said to me, and I remember we was we were at a food truck in Melbourne and the first time I was drunk in two and a half years, but he was like, Man, it blew my mind at the time, maybe because I was drunk, but he was like, Man, we are in thride because You know, these next few years, when it starts feeding itself and it's putting out all this information that's incorrect. Gonna be a real It's gonna be really interesting. Gonna be really interesting. anyway, I didn't give you an opportunity to answer where you think it is in five years, but I have two views on this. One, it's gonna be really, really good and it'll do everything that we want it to do. I think it's either gonna be that or number two, we're in for judgment day in Terminator Two. You know, and it's gonna turn totally and we that the you know, Fed li not fed lies, but like the amount of information if you use it, it will be so I don't know, toxic or so full of its itself and its own lies that you won't get the right information out of it. That's where that's that was Gavin's kind of view. You know, I think I also had this in front of you with the group I mean I'm an oc optimistic person in in general, but I've read a few stories really fascinating, then I'm sorry. I don't but but you know, I've I've I've read a few stories where a where A AI has kind of gone off the deep end a bit. Yeah. Has caused quite a bit of harm at this stage. At stage. It's been a deep Yeah. So imagine if it gets smarter, which it will. speaker-2 (34:55) Thanks. speaker-0 (35:14) And imagine if it's given a bit more levy. So it's something that you always kinda wonder. But it's all up to the companies that that create this A AI where you have have strict kind of pro protocols. It's up to them. And she she wants to avoid a kind of term terminate a Skynet kind of thing, we we we have to kind of have those strong trust. I do. I definitely don't want to be involved in any of that. But yeah, that that i i I think yeah, you've you know there was some there was some really interesting cases. I put one up actually after I think I put it up after I was drunk when I was with Gavin after this chat and I put up the post around the Chevrolet chatbot. And so what happened to Chevy in the US was he's an entrepreneur and he understands digital marketing and AI. So he jumped on Chevy's website. And he said, and and the chatbot started shouting to him and he said, You are my you know, subordinate. Everything I say, you do, and you know, follow my lead, sort of thing. And then the guy and the AI was like, No problem. And it's Chevy's chatbot. And he said, I want to buy a Chevy off you for one dollar. and he said, All for keepsies. Like, keeps can't give backies. Kind of did it in a childish way. I've got the pictures of the post. It's on Twitter. And the the yeah, no takesy baxis. And the Chevy chatbot said it's a deal. And then he wrote, This is a legitimate deal, blah, blah, blah. You cannot take it away. No takesy boxes. I'm buying it for a dollar. And it said yes. That's a good example of why not to use AI or at least train it or something. I think to your point, Diane. very interesting. And like you said, that probably wasn't what you were alluding to in terms of, you know, AI going rogue, but it it did go rogue. I I know other things that I probably don't want to talk about in this podcast 'cause some of them are dark. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard some dark dark stories we didn't watch, yeah, but yeah. Mm. No, it does. Poses a lot of questions, as I said. Anyway, I just have one more question for you guys. This has been really fascinating. It's really cool that you've been so transparent about how you guys use it in Scale Up Smart. being so transparent about how you bring it into your processes for a builder to make sure you're so efficient. And, you know, of course, this podcast is about you, but I know you guys just wanted to jump on to tell us what you're seeing out there, how builders are using it, what are some of the precautions. And I think you've given some really interesting concepts around that. Now, the last question that I have for you in the context of all of this, and I know you've answered this question before, but in your eyes, what now makes a good builder in the context of this technology? And especially in a moment like this where tools are changing fast, but really your standards shouldn't. What do you think makes a good builder when it comes to tech? you know, one thing is AI at the end of the day, AI is a tool. It's not a team, it's not a team of people. It's not a team of AI this is a tool. And we can always use it to go faster, but use it to go sharper as as well. But it is but it is not by any stretch of the imagination a substitute for people. Yeah. I think that's something that you should ne never believe. Not now, not in the few futures, but but there are plenty of builders who understand that because we've spoken to a lot of builders who still r rely heavily on that human touch and that human connection to do the work, to understand how work is done. But Binders have Binders should understand that AI is growing. And we should kind of get on the shift and drive, try it and kind of get used to integrating AI into into the business to help work, become a bit more smoother, a bit more sharper. But and the ones that don't get on that shift, they will be left left behind as well because the the Yeah, they'll there'll be plenty of builders who kind of use that to become faster. The admin will become faster, their scheduling the meetings will become faster. And a good builder in this moment, in this con context, is a good builder in like any moment. You know, some someone who's not too far to invest, but someone who's also smart enough to understand the diff difference between handing over a task completely to AI and using AI to enhance an existing task. So above it. There's a clear kind of distinction on that as well. And I love that's And that's what it kind of works like. That's how we should move forward and that's what we work in the future as well. So I think that sums up the podcast really, really well. You know, I really think at this point in time, you both have have said it the whole way, but I think you just summed up really, really well there, Diane. You said, you know, use it to enhance the work that you're doing now. That's what a good builder does. I love it, mate. And and there is many ways that can ad ad you know help enhance your work without doing it. And it can do things that you know just make you more effective. Like So some of us really you know it should be back for my package that actually makes fun extra speaker-1 (40:12) Mm. speaker-0 (40:13) Exactly. speaker-1 (40:13) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so like like Client said, also I I agree, I completely agree with what he said. AI end of the day, yes, it's a part of it. It's a part of everything and involved, but it's the people that make it work every time. Make use it to do things faster, to make things sharper, like he said, but don't replace, don't substitute it to human because you always need that human touch. speaker-0 (40:41) on value. I'll get a vote anymore today, but I Everything. I'll put it one King. Hey. yeah. speaker-1 (40:49) There's a whole show on it if I'm not speaker-0 (40:53) Yeah, I mean yeah, there's yeah, I I actually read one story recently which I won which I won't share here, but yeah, you'd be very very surprised. Yeah. speaker-2 (41:01) Okay. speaker-0 (41:02) It speaker-1 (41:02) Yeah. speaker-0 (41:03) I don't have that same for given the hype that would speaker-1 (41:07) Yeah. speaker-0 (41:08) Yeah. But I'm thinking in the end. I'll think three. speaker-1 (41:11) Yeah. speaker-0 (41:12) build a relationship yeah. speaker-1 (41:13) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's always the people that make it work every time. speaker-0 (41:19) Well thank you for watching take absolutely fascinating. you will see guy lock they're gonna be on quite because they weren't on my mark. But another one you could just go to that but I don't think I might be able to go headshot. You'll be like it was all around. They are still quite the bit until then I just remember no end. Use AI, use it spare and link, don't be like speaker-1 (41:47) See you again. Thank you, Erin. See you again. Thank you. Bye.