Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E161: Love After Death, Suffering, and God's Will w/Kendra Tierney

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E161: Love After Death, Suffering, and God's Will w/Kendra Tierney · The Lila Rose Show

• 0:00
  What I thought I wanted was for God to feel really sorry for me.
• 0:04
  You know your husband died of cancer because death and disease
• 0:08
  and decay was brought into the world at the fall.
• 0:11
  We can marvel at other people's sufferings or blessings.
• 0:14
  God is not giving us the grace for their shoes.
• 0:17
  We want detachment even from good things, right?
• 0:20
  But what is finding love again look like after a 21 year
• 0:23
  marriage? Yeah, I now have a.
• 0:27
  Kendra, welcome back to the podcast.
• 0:29
  So good to see you again. It's been a year.
• 0:32
  It's been a year. You've had a big year.
• 0:35
  Yes, I have, although you know they say all things are possible
• 0:39
  with God, that I in my experience that is actually
• 0:43
  true. All right, so people who heard
• 0:45
  your episode a year ago now, you talked about grief.
• 0:49
  You had recently lost your beloved husband.
• 0:52
  It was really moving for a lot of people.
• 0:54
  So thank you for just opening up and sharing because we got so
• 0:57
  much incredible feedback. People saying that they were
• 0:59
  inspired, encouraged, even how you grieve, learning how to
• 1:02
  grieve. And I know you said everyone
• 1:04
  grieves differently, but thank you for doing that because it
• 1:06
  really touched a lot of people. You're welcome.
• 1:09
  You know, so I don't think anybody wants to sign up to be
• 1:13
  the spokesperson for for that. But one of the most helpful
• 1:17
  things a friend ever said to me is, you know, you decided to to
• 1:22
  try to show what a Catholic life looks like.
• 1:26
  And this is part of that. So what has happened in the last
• 1:30
  year? Yeah, I'll let you share the
• 1:32
  news. Yeah.
• 1:34
  So I was married in this summer. You are married?
• 1:41
  I am married, yes. I, I, I was wedded.
• 1:44
  I was wedded this summer. Yes.
• 1:47
  So yeah, I now have a husband and four stepchildren.
• 1:51
  So that brings our grand total to 14.
• 1:54
  So yeah, it is not less complicated, but it's very good.
• 2:01
  So I remember on the show last fall, you know, you were sharing
• 2:05
  really beautifully about your late husband's life and about
• 2:08
  your, your family and everything.
• 2:10
  And then I was kind of towards the end saying I, I don't
• 2:13
  remember if we cut this out of the episode afterwards.
• 2:15
  I know we were discussing should we cut it out or leave it in?
• 2:18
  But I asked you, well, are you dating again or were you open to
• 2:21
  dating again? And I think you said at the time
• 2:24
  I'm, you know, you weren't dating, but you might be open to
• 2:26
  it in the future. Here you are your later
• 2:29
  timeline. Nicely done.
• 2:30
  Kendra, you are remarried. Can you share about what, what
• 2:33
  it was like to find love again after you had this very
• 2:36
  beautiful and happy marriage of how many years was your first
• 2:39
  marriage? 2121 years and how many kids?
• 2:43
  10 kids. It's incredible.
• 2:45
  I mean incredible legacy your your husband and you created
• 2:48
  together. But what is love finding love
• 2:51
  again look like after? I guess to, to start at the
• 2:56
  beginning, I, I mentioned in that last episode how one of the
• 3:03
  first things I did to try to get to know my, my first husband,
• 3:08
  Jim, my late husband was throw a fake Halloween party where I
• 3:12
  just sort of blurted out that I was throwing a party and he
• 3:15
  should come over. So then I had to find people for
• 3:17
  it and we had this pumpkin carving party.
• 3:20
  This was how you met. Jim in the first, you got him to
• 3:23
  come and connect with you, hang out with me socially, Yeah.
• 3:27
  You planned a party just for him, just for folks who didn't
• 3:29
  remember this from the first episode, which was adorable.
• 3:32
  You thought he was cute. You guys made eye contact at
• 3:34
  church, right? Yes, and then?
• 3:36
  Volunteering at our youth group. So he was thinking, you know,
• 3:40
  don't date the other volunteers at the youth group because that
• 3:43
  could make things complicated, right?
• 3:45
  Fair enough, like but. Come on, what are we all doing
• 3:47
  here? Like I'm here to find a man.
• 3:50
  So I just told him I was having this party and then I had to put
• 3:53
  this party together. So then last year I get a last
• 3:57
  minute phone call from a friend of mine and she says I'm having
• 4:01
  a Halloween party and you have to come and don't wear a
• 4:03
  costume. And it's like wait a minute,
• 4:06
  it's like 2 days before Halloween.
• 4:08
  All right, so it turns out that she threw a fake Halloween party
• 4:12
  for me with two of of our other friends and who are mutual
• 4:18
  friends with John, my now husband.
• 4:21
  So we met his he was an empty nester at the time, his youngest
• 4:28
  was off at college. And so we met and we talked and
• 4:35
  you know, he found out that wait, wait, he didn't find out
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  our kids went to the same school.
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  So he knew who I was. He knew my husband.
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  He, our youngest, his youngest, graduated from high school with
• 4:46
  my third, so he knew of me. I didn't know him, but yeah,
• 4:51
  then he did not call me. But so wait, you met John at
• 4:56
  this at this party was set up just to get you guys to meet by
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  your friends. That was very proactive of your
• 5:02
  friend. Yeah, yeah.
• 5:04
  So it's very sweet. But, yeah, I think that
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  understandably, he had some hesitation about, you know,
• 5:13
  jumping back into a lot of little kids.
• 5:16
  And, you know, I I always joke and I'm sure you and I'm sure
• 5:21
  you get this, that like we get recognized by one person
• 5:25
  everywhere kind of thing and everyone's very nice.
• 5:29
  But, you know, it's a different kind of life to come into when
• 5:32
  you weren't like, you know, when you weren't there at the
• 5:37
  beginning. So.
• 5:39
  So yeah, he did not call me right away, but about three
• 5:45
  months later he I was at mass alone on Sunday morning, which
• 5:52
  never happens. And I that's a good story how I
• 5:55
  ended up there, but. Tell it again, I will.
• 5:59
  But yeah, so I ended up at, at the early Mass alone and he saw
• 6:03
  me and I guess, you know, it was different than than my usual
• 6:07
  entire Pew full of people. And he just sort of thought, OK,
• 6:10
  I am supposed to call her, I'm supposed to meet her.
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  And so then I didn't want to go out with him because I was like,
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  come on, it's been 3 months. What are you?
• 6:21
  What are you doing? But yeah, then my friend talked
• 6:25
  me into it. And yeah, we got along really
• 6:27
  well. But OK, so the story of how I
• 6:30
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  So the story of how I ended up alone at Mass on a Sunday
• 7:50
  morning goes back to something that really has been sort of
• 7:54
  pivotal in my life and something I just that that I was
• 7:57
  introduced to since we talked last time.
• 8:00
  Was this book called Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence,
• 8:06
  which is this tiny book written half of it in the 16th and half
• 8:09
  of it in the 17th century by a St. and a priest.
• 8:14
  And it basically argues that everything that happens in your
• 8:19
  life for good or for bad is specifically willed by God for
• 8:26
  your own good. And I think, and we all, you
• 8:29
  know, I certainly believed that on some level, right, that that
• 8:34
  I believed, you know, sure, God has a plan for my life.
• 8:36
  God's involved, but God doesn't care.
• 8:39
  You know, I, I would have thought, you know, God doesn't
• 8:41
  care what the weather is God. And then on a bigger, a bigger
• 8:47
  level, especially as somebody who had gone through hardship
• 8:52
  and grief, what I thought I wanted was for God to feel
• 8:57
  really sorry for me, that God to think, oh, you know, your
• 9:01
  husband died of cancer because death and disease and decay was
• 9:06
  brought into the world at the fall.
• 9:09
  But this book really argues that that's not really what we
• 9:14
  believe about God. And that's not really what
• 9:16
  Scripture teaches about God. What what I really believe about
• 9:20
  God is that God is a God of miracles that he is a God who's
• 9:26
  involved in in our specific lives.
• 9:31
  And he doesn't will our sins. He doesn't will the sins of
• 9:34
  others, but the consequences of the sins of others, our own sins
• 9:39
  in our lives. He does will that for our own
• 9:43
  good and and it's so reading this book.
• 9:46
  I hate it. I hate this book.
• 9:48
  It's terrible. Well, that's so frustrating.
• 9:50
  I mean, what's just going through my mind as you're
• 9:52
  saying, this is Romans 828. God wills all things for the
• 9:56
  good of those that love him, right?
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  And that he uses all things. God uses all things for the
• 10:01
  good. Excuse me?
• 10:02
  God wills all things for the good of those that love Him.
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  Meaning God uses everything, including the consequences of
• 10:08
  our sin. God can use that and He does use
• 10:10
  that for our good, right? That's how powerful he is.
• 10:13
  And that's mean. So it's scriptural.
• 10:14
  The book you're describing is scriptural.
• 10:16
  It is kind of a a shocking and in some ways counter intuitive
• 10:21
  idea, right? That God really is using
• 10:24
  everything for my good. Yeah, and, and what it meant in
• 10:30
  my life was coming to the understanding that my husband's
• 10:34
  death was God's will for me. And, and I had heard people say
• 10:41
  that and I had complained about people saying that because I
• 10:44
  really wasn't ready to hear that.
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  But I think that that reading this book, it took me a lot of
• 10:53
  time. It took me months to sort of
• 10:56
  think about a little and concede these little points to it.
• 11:00
  But just trying to see, all right.
• 11:03
  So as an example, when when Jim was in the hospital, a priest
• 11:08
  friend of ours came and brought a relic of of Blessed Alvaro del
• 11:15
  Portillo. And this same relic had been
• 11:19
  used to bless a woman who had many tumors in her, many
• 11:24
  Melanoma tumors in her lungs, which is exactly what Jim had.
• 11:28
  And he blessed Jim with this relic and Jim did not this, this
• 11:35
  other woman, he was there when she was blessed, this this
• 11:40
  priest, Father Mark. And she stood up and, and was
• 11:44
  apparently completely healed in that moment.
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  And that did not happen. My husband then continued on to
• 11:53
  have the surgery that he was scheduled and and, you know, and
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  eventually died. So I believe that God can heal
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  and that sometimes he doesn't. And if that's the case, there
• 12:09
  must be a reason for that. And what the only thing that has
• 12:17
  consistently made sense to me as I try to, you know, make sense
• 12:20
  of all of this is that is that God wills things for that will
• 12:27
  eventually be for our own good. And and so I really, you know,
• 12:34
  reading this book, I'm thinking, all right, well, maybe I'm just
• 12:38
  going to try to live like I believe this.
• 12:41
  Maybe I'm going to try to experience the little setbacks
• 12:46
  in my day, the crazy things that kids do, being stuck in traffic,
• 12:50
  being stuck in, you know, good bad weather.
• 12:54
  I'm going to try to think, all right, you know, this is the the
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  same way that that my that my track coach at cross country
• 13:03
  again or my track and cross country coach at USC treated me
• 13:05
  right, like did he will my suffering?
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  Yes, he did. But it was to get the best that
• 13:12
  I was capable out of me. So I'm going to view, you know,
• 13:15
  I, I, I was going to wait on, on, on seeing how this all
• 13:20
  applied to, you know, to my widowhood, But I could look at
• 13:24
  it like that for my, for my day-to-day life.
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  And so it was, you know, weeks later, you know, not a very long
• 13:35
  time after this, I've decided, all right, you know, this, this
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  is how I'm going to see things from now on.
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  And middle of the night, my kids have a couple friends sleeping
• 13:46
  over, the children of my good friend who gave me this book.
• 13:53
  And I have 3 kids up in the middle of the night barfing all
• 13:58
  over three different rooms in the house, like door jams, I
• 14:02
  mean just huge baths. And I'm thinking to myself, OK,
• 14:06
  here we go. I am going to experience this as
• 14:10
  what God wants me to be doing at like 2:00 in the morning.
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  So I get it all cleaned up. The kids who are sleeping over
• 14:21
  decide they don't want to stay in Barf Town, USA.
• 14:25
  So I get them in the car, drive them home, come back, and I
• 14:30
  figure, all right, I'm going to set my alarm and go to early
• 14:33
  Mass on my own because who knows who's going to get sick next?
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  And that was the Mass where that morning, that's how I ended up
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  at Mass on my own when God put it on John's heart to to give me
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  a call. So yeah, I think it somehow
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  worked. Somehow worked, yeah.
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  And it was the opportunity of seeing you alone because before
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  maybe he just saw you in context of all your beautiful kids and
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  it was maybe overwhelming for him.
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  It sounds like, I don't know, I don't want to put words into his
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  mouth or your story, but as you were saying earlier.
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  And so, but that opportunity of you being there on on at Mass
• 15:14
  that morning that moved him to call you and say, I'm going to,
• 15:17
  I'm going to reach out. And to hear him tell it that
• 15:22
  that he, he needed some time to, you know, just to sort through
• 15:26
  some of his own personal baggage.
• 15:28
  And so I think that I, I think that being being thoughtful
• 15:34
  about, about making a big decision is a good thing.
• 15:37
  But I always sort of laugh at that, that somehow that was that
• 15:43
  was part of our love story. So I, I want to explore this
• 15:46
  concept more with you because it's a very beautiful 1 and it
• 15:49
  has huge implications. This idea that every single
• 15:53
  thing in our lives, every circumstance, every event, God
• 15:57
  is using for our good. And you used other language
• 16:00
  earlier about God willing it. And I want to just kind of
• 16:03
  explore that more because for example, your husband's passing,
• 16:06
  right? God could have saved his life,
• 16:09
  right? God can save anyone's life.
• 16:10
  God can do anything. He can raise the dead and he he
• 16:13
  will raise the dead on the last day.
• 16:14
  You know, we are through the power of Jesus Christ, we have
• 16:17
  that resurrection of the body and we can go to eternal life
• 16:20
  with, with Jesus, with God. But sometimes the child does die
• 16:25
  of cancer. You know, sometimes the horrible
• 16:26
  thing does happen and death happens before it should or
• 16:29
  death just happens, period. Is God willing the death, or is
• 16:34
  God allowing the death and then using the death for good?
• 16:38
  What are your thoughts? I think you know, and I'm not a
• 16:41
  theologian and I. Me neither.
• 16:44
  But I, I would say that just like as I look at my life, as I
• 16:51
  look at my experiences, you know, and, and through this
• 16:53
  lens, which really colors everything now, it just, it just
• 17:00
  was the only thing that made sense because otherwise
• 17:05
  everything is chaos. Otherwise there, there's just
• 17:08
  this almost meaninglessness of, of these big burdens that, that,
• 17:16
  that sometimes we have to carry. And so this idea of that, you
• 17:24
  know, people talk about the tapestry right where, where you
• 17:28
  only see the back of the tapestry.
• 17:29
  And so it's just a mess and it's just knots and, and you can't
• 17:33
  see it. But then, you know, at the end
• 17:36
  of times you, you turn it around and you see what all of what all
• 17:41
  of this was for. So I, I will, I, I, I can't
• 17:47
  claim, I guess to have a perfect understanding of it.
• 17:50
  But but this idea that that God would actually look at a
• 17:54
  situation and say and say, as hard as this is for you right
• 18:02
  now, that that this will work for good in your life.
• 18:07
  And, and I pray for the lives of the people that I love.
• 18:12
  And it's a hard saying it is, but I think it's the where I
• 18:21
  have come to right now. It's, it's really the only thing
• 18:25
  that that fits with, with God's perfections.
• 18:29
  You know, the, the, the way that I see them.
• 18:32
  And I think that in, in some ways, it's, it's about how you
• 18:36
  phrase it and you know, is it, is it God's will or is it, you
• 18:42
  know, that God is working through it.
• 18:44
  And sometimes they think that that it would be hard to tell
• 18:46
  the difference between those two things.
• 18:49
  It's a yeah, because in your day-to-day life we kind of
• 18:52
  breakdown. Well, God we know can't will
• 18:54
  evil, death is evil. God can't will evil or death is
• 18:58
  a consequence, I should say of evil, but God does not will the
• 19:03
  evil, but he permits evil and we we can commit the evil through
• 19:06
  our freedom of of choice and ability to say I'm going to do
• 19:09
  what's wrong. I think about and I was just
• 19:12
  looking this up, this idea of the happy fault.
• 19:14
  I'm sure you're familiar and I was just looking this up, but
• 19:18
  Easter Vigil there is part of the liturgy.
• 19:20
  This. Exultate.
• 19:22
  This reflection on oh, Felix culpa or oh, happy fault.
• 19:26
  And the idea here and, and the, the phrase here in English is
• 19:30
  oh, happy fault, oh necessary sin of Adam, which Grant gained
• 19:35
  for us so great a Redeemer. So because of Adam's fall, we
• 19:39
  got the Redeemer, we got Jesus Christ and we, we, we all of the
• 19:43
  incredible graces and mercies that come with it.
• 19:45
  So God used even sin to bring about greater grace, which
• 19:50
  again, even other people's sin are just the natural
• 19:53
  consequences of sin. Original sin, death can be
• 19:57
  brought to such beautiful gifts in the end.
• 19:59
  I mean, this is the great contradiction of of our faith,
• 20:02
  right them in the mystery of our faith.
• 20:04
  Yeah, absolutely. But then I, I feel like what are
• 20:07
  the things in my life that that make me the most frustrated are
• 20:13
  are times when it feels like everything's out of control.
• 20:17
  And, and to try to view life as not out of control, as just not
• 20:23
  necessarily in my control. That, that if God really does
• 20:28
  have control of my life, that if I really desire to correspond to
• 20:34
  the graces that God wants to give me, if I want to cooperate,
• 20:39
  you know, with, with what he's trying to do in my life, then
• 20:44
  then sometimes, you know, sitting in traffic, I guess is
• 20:48
  God's will for me at that moment.
• 20:50
  And there was a time where I would get super frustrated about
• 20:53
  that. And now I try to see it as OK,
• 20:57
  like here I am stuck here. I'm going to be late for a thing
• 21:00
  and I should have left earlier. And that is a terrible feeling.
• 21:05
  But you know, how can, how can I be open to what could be good in
• 21:10
  this moment? You know, what, what am I, you
• 21:13
  know, what could I listen to? What could I think about, what
• 21:15
  conversation could I have? And it's just, it's just such a
• 21:19
  more, I think, fruitful way to experience the, the smaller
• 21:25
  challenges in, in life and the big ones, I would also say.
• 21:29
  But certainly, you know, we all face all those little things
• 21:32
  that can be so frustrating in day-to-day life.
• 21:35
  What's what's been the most unexpected thing that you've
• 21:38
  experienced because of living the way that you're living now
• 21:41
  in that mindset of everything that's happened is permitted
• 21:46
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  I I think that the biggest thing, you know, was, was being,
• 22:52
  you know, open to to meeting John and having that and having
• 22:59
  that be sort of one of those God moments where I was like, OK,
• 23:01
  I'm going to lean into this. And then, you know, sometimes I
• 23:04
  think God gives you a little sort of attaboy like, yes,
• 23:07
  that's what I wanted you to do in that situation.
• 23:09
  But then other little things that really have been, have been
• 23:14
  meaningful, you know, in, in, in my parenting journey, things
• 23:19
  like my, my youngest daughter took all of the craft supplies
• 23:24
  that were neatly sorted and just dumped them into a giant mound
• 23:27
  in the middle of the rug. And she just, you know, thought
• 23:31
  that would be fun and obviously had a conversation with her
• 23:35
  about why we should not do that. But instead of just lamenting
• 23:41
  this completely losing my cool, I got my other daughters and we
• 23:45
  sat, we put some music on and we sat around this rug and we
• 23:48
  sorted the craft supplies and we ended up having some good
• 23:51
  conversations. And and it just, it was one of
• 23:55
  those things that that, you know, if I had let that to just,
• 24:03
  you know, frustration bubble up and take over, then, you know,
• 24:07
  my first inclination is fine. I'm just going to throw all this
• 24:10
  stuff away. Why is this in our house to
• 24:11
  begin with? But but seeing is it all right?
• 24:14
  You know, why would God have wanted this for me in this
• 24:17
  moment? And you know, it's not always
• 24:20
  going to be that obvious, but but to try to see things as an
• 24:23
  opportunity and not as like a curse.
• 24:28
  And we really did. It was a completely enjoyable
• 24:32
  afternoon when I could have let it evolve into something
• 24:39
  unpleasant. I mean, what you're describing
• 24:42
  sounds like the way Saints are supposed to live and Saints
• 24:44
  live. Right.
• 24:46
  Yeah. So I'm able to manage it here
• 24:48
  and there. No, it's, it's so good for me to
• 24:50
  hear that because I've been in, in my daily life and I've got 3
• 24:53
  littles and they're six months, you know, almost 3, almost 5.
• 24:57
  But you know, I, I patience is something that I didn't realize
• 25:01
  I didn't have as much as I thought I did until I became a
• 25:03
  mother. We'll just say that.
• 25:04
  And it's such an incredibly beautiful and true view to say
• 25:08
  this moment is an incredible gift from God and what it, what
• 25:12
  is God teaching me in this moment, regardless of what
• 25:14
  annoyance or frustration might hit me, right.
• 25:18
  So thank you, thank you for sharing that because that
• 25:20
  administered to me, you know, just hearing you say that and
• 25:23
  it's something I need to remember.
• 25:24
  And I think we can all remember, we're all would be good to
• 25:27
  remember that every single little thing that happens is for
• 25:29
  our good God. He's using it for our good.
• 25:32
  If we will let him, if we will let him is the key.
• 25:35
  If we'll let him, yes. What's been some of the
• 25:38
  unexpected blessings of finding love after loss?
• 25:45
  Yeah, so it, it doesn't sound romantic, but there's so many
• 25:49
  like practical things day-to-day where living as a single mother,
• 25:54
  it's it's I, I'm so able to appreciate now how God's design
• 26:00
  for, for the family is having two parents.
• 26:03
  You know, you just to, to have somebody to commiserate with
• 26:07
  when, when things are frustrating, to have somebody
• 26:11
  to, you know, talk things over with.
• 26:14
  That was something that I didn't, you know, I just really
• 26:18
  took for granted that that there was there was no other like
• 26:23
  adult in the house to decide, all right, you know, how am I
• 26:26
  going to handle this situation? How am I going to, you know,
• 26:30
  handle this, this, you know, thing that this kid did?
• 26:35
  And to just to have somebody now who I trust and can share these
• 26:41
  decisions to share responsibility with.
• 26:44
  And it, it becomes really obvious to me how, how important
• 26:50
  that is just for, for a, for a family dynamic.
• 26:56
  And, and there are plenty of people who are who, you know,
• 27:01
  don't have that in their lives now.
• 27:02
  But but I guess I would say that the biggest thing is that I feel
• 27:10
  like I again have a vocation to marriage because when you, when
• 27:14
  you're married, that's that's a vocation, it's a person, but
• 27:17
  it's also a sacrament. And that ends when when the when
• 27:22
  the person dies, your vocation is over and you have to start
• 27:26
  all over to determine, all right, what how does God want me
• 27:32
  to grow in personal holiness? What is God's path of
• 27:36
  sanctification for me? And is that marriage?
• 27:38
  Is that single life or is that religious life?
• 27:41
  And there's plenty of great Saints who had big families and
• 27:45
  were widowed and, you know, went on to start religious orders or,
• 27:49
  or join them. Certainly less common these
• 27:52
  days. But but once I had determined,
• 27:57
  you know, I really feel like I that like that God has given me
• 28:03
  another vocation to marriage. And at that point, that's the
• 28:08
  way that that God wants me to grow in holiness.
• 28:11
  That's the way that God wants me to try to get to heaven with
• 28:14
  another person and trying to get that other person to heaven.
• 28:17
  And so all of those, you know, day-to-day things, all of that,
• 28:22
  you know, the great feeling of, you know, having someone love
• 28:25
  you and being able to laugh with somebody at the end of the day
• 28:28
  being, you know, not having to go to events alone, all of that
• 28:32
  just but all of that is great. But it really it on a grand
• 28:39
  scheme, it pales in comparison to the fact that if God has
• 28:42
  called me to marriage, then you know, then then that's the way
• 28:46
  that I am going to, you know, reach my goal of being with him
• 28:51
  for eternity. What did, what advice do you
• 28:53
  have for people that were that experienced loss, that were
• 28:58
  widowed widowers and they're wondering if they can find love
• 29:03
  again or wondering what their vocation may be?
• 29:06
  It's a challenge. I think that in, in a lot of
• 29:11
  ways, because my, because my first marriage felt so
• 29:19
  successful that I was, I was happy in, in my first marriage
• 29:24
  that once things settle down enough for me to really be able
• 29:28
  to think about it, I, I realized it really was something that,
• 29:34
  that I wanted again. And, and I'm sure that there are
• 29:38
  people who had really challenging marriages who, who
• 29:41
  want to give it another go and people who had, who had happy
• 29:45
  marriages, who decided, you know, or who really feel like
• 29:49
  that was enough. But, but I think that if you
• 29:54
  feel like, if you have discerned that you have a vocation to
• 29:59
  marriage, then I, it was a really overwhelming sort of
• 30:03
  prospect. How am I going to find someone
• 30:05
  the? You know, widows with 10 kids
• 30:08
  aren't the, you know, aren't the hottest commodity out there.
• 30:12
  Come on, very beautiful. Come on, very beautiful.
• 30:15
  Kendra and your kids are amazing.
• 30:17
  But yes, it's a very unique you're you were highly unique to
• 30:21
  be a mother of ten children and widowed.
• 30:23
  It's very unique. And I did, I, I looked at the
• 30:26
  dating sites and I pretty quickly determined that, that,
• 30:32
  that didn't seem right for me. I, I have an app on my phone for
• 30:40
  a like resale clothing place that I like.
• 30:43
  And you can go in there and you can put, you know, exactly the
• 30:47
  like type of clothing you want and the color and the like
• 30:52
  length of the skirt. And then the items that match
• 30:55
  those parameters will come up and you can pick the one you
• 30:57
  want. And then right next to it on my
• 30:59
  phone was a dating app where you could do that exact same thing.
• 31:04
  And at some point it just didn't feel like that was how I was
• 31:08
  going to be able to meet someone.
• 31:10
  I know other people have a different experience of it, but
• 31:13
  but what would my advice be to somebody is I would say in
• 31:16
  prayer, God, if if you put this on my heart that I feel like I
• 31:20
  want to be married. I can't do that because my whole
• 31:25
  deal is crazy, but you can do that.
• 31:27
  And so if either either help me realize this, you know, this
• 31:34
  feeling that you've given me, help me make that happen, or
• 31:37
  take that feeling away and help me be content with the life that
• 31:42
  I have. Because by, by almost all
• 31:44
  measures, even as a single mom, you know, I had a, a good life
• 31:52
  and I had support from a lot of, of people who cared about our
• 31:56
  family. And I, you know, had, I was not
• 32:01
  facing a lot of the hardships that other, that other widows
• 32:05
  face. But, but I just had that feeling
• 32:09
  that, you know, that I did want to be married again.
• 32:12
  And, and so I just, you know, I told I, I prayed that God would
• 32:16
  either help me make that happen or, or take that away.
• 32:20
  So because that's the teetering on despair that you really you,
• 32:23
  you, you have to avoid is, is to not focus on here's this thing I
• 32:29
  want that I can't have. So to give it to God and say,
• 32:33
  all right, like you can make this happen.
• 32:35
  Help me or take that away so that I'm not, you know, focusing
• 32:40
  on on something that you don't want for me.
• 32:42
  That's such a beautiful prayer. And I, I think it can apply to
• 32:46
  all of us, any, any maybe unmet longing that anybody has,
• 32:50
  whether they've never been married and they're hoping to be
• 32:52
  married or they're in some kind of a tough situation and they're
• 32:56
  longing for some freedom from it or relief from it.
• 32:58
  You know, either help me out of this or help me towards this
• 33:01
  thing that I'm longing for or it's not your will.
• 33:04
  Give me the, you know, take the longing away or relieve the
• 33:07
  burden or, or help me carry the burden so that I'm not
• 33:11
  struggling so much. I, I guess I think about people
• 33:13
  and I know people as an example, you know, friends who are
• 33:16
  seeking to get married. They haven't found the 1 yet.
• 33:19
  You know that that hasn't materialized for them.
• 33:21
  They're, they're in the longing. And I think there's, that's part
• 33:24
  of where the, the, the struggle to trust comes.
• 33:27
  You know, what is even the part of prey?
• 33:28
  Take away the longing. Send me the guy.
• 33:31
  Help me deal with the longing. Yeah, but we want detachment
• 33:36
  even from good things, right? Even from from things that we
• 33:41
  feel really strongly would help us to be better people.
• 33:46
  But there, there still has to be.
• 33:47
  That's that level of detachment even from a thing that we really
• 33:52
  want, because otherwise we're making a God out of that
• 33:55
  longing, out of that desire. I find that such AI don't know
• 34:00
  such a mysterious part of the Christian life is at the one
• 34:03
  hand hoping and praying for the good things, the vocation to be
• 34:07
  fully realized, the consolation that you know, helps you, you
• 34:14
  know, not just persevere, but persevere with the joy out of
• 34:18
  the struggle you're in or whatever it is.
• 34:20
  Well, at the same time, we're asked to pick up our cross and
• 34:23
  carry him and you know, our Lord and secret was crucified naked
• 34:26
  on a cross and that's what he's like.
• 34:28
  That's the model, the Christian model, like death and abject,
• 34:32
  you know, suffering and public shaming and all of this.
• 34:35
  And, and yet we're also called to pray for the good things, you
• 34:38
  know, and pray for Our Daily Bread, pray for the vocation,
• 34:41
  pray for the blessing, pray for the miracle.
• 34:43
  I don't know, I, I on a daily basis, I, I think I marvel at
• 34:45
  that and how to like live that where you accept the crosses.
• 34:49
  But then at the same time, we're called to, you know, pray for
• 34:52
  the, pray for the best, pray for the good, pray for the healing,
• 34:56
  all of that. Well, and when you read the
• 34:59
  lives of the Saints, I mean that that's what we have signed up
• 35:06
  for is a life of, of suffering, but, but a transformational
• 35:15
  suffering, a suffering that, you know, it's, it's amazing to read
• 35:20
  the, the things that the Saints have gone through and have
• 35:24
  managed to maintain joy, or at least come out the other end of
• 35:30
  it with joy and, and understanding that that being
• 35:38
  that our faith doesn't protect us from suffering.
• 35:42
  It just helps us to experience it differently.
• 35:46
  What's it been like blending families?
• 35:48
  Yeah, because John has how many kids?
• 35:50
  If he has four kids. And then you have tests.
• 35:52
  You have 14 kids now Yes, I had one baby last year.
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  and a baby in need. So the cute thing to me is that,
• 37:21
  you know, our kids knew each other.
• 37:22
  Like I went and they kind of they, the older kids followed
• 37:25
  each other on Instagram already, which only my adult kids that
• 37:31
  has been a challenge, but but a really beautiful 1.
• 37:37
  I feel like a good way to, you know, to be able to stay in
• 37:43
  something like, you know, blogging or being on Catholic
• 37:47
  social media is you have to have this sort of thick skin.
• 37:51
  You can't be somebody who needs everybody to like them all the
• 37:54
  time, I think. And so I sort of have have had
• 37:59
  that naturally. And then all of a sudden I was
• 38:01
  meeting these people and I really, really wanted them to
• 38:06
  like me. It's like, Oh no, what do I do?
• 38:08
  I don't know how to do this, but it's been, it's been great.
• 38:13
  His his two younger daughters moved into our house just before
• 38:16
  the wedding, but we took what used to be our guest room and
• 38:21
  everybody you know went furniture, flat pack furniture,
• 38:24
  shopping and put together all of the furniture, which you know is
• 38:28
  sort of a rite of passage for relationships.
• 38:31
  You can put the furniture together.
• 38:35
  And so just little, little milestones like that where, you
• 38:40
  know, combining not just our families and our physical
• 38:44
  presence, but our, you know, traditions around different
• 38:48
  things. You know, how we how we
• 38:51
  approach, you know, how we approach challenges, how, how we
• 38:56
  celebrate holidays, all of those things.
• 38:59
  The little kids were really my little kids are really doing the
• 39:02
  heavy lifting on on all of it because they just fell in love
• 39:06
  with with John's kids. And and they don't have any of
• 39:15
  that sort of, you know, a baggage of of trying to approach
• 39:21
  people the right way or, you know, they were just so excited
• 39:24
  to get, you know, new people in the family love them.
• 39:27
  And would you know, my youngest daughter would try to to be
• 39:32
  sitting on both of their laps at Mass somehow?
• 39:38
  And my next oldest daughter has been writing letters to her step
• 39:44
  sister, her out of state step sisters.
• 39:47
  Are they at college? The oldest lives out of state
• 39:52
  and is and is working and then the two are at Benedictine in
• 39:57
  Kansas. So and then my 2, my next two to
• 40:00
  graduate, went and visited. With them on a college visit, I
• 40:03
  think it's more just to hang out with them.
• 40:05
  But I don't want to unfairly smooth over things because it's
• 40:11
  anytime you know you're combining families, there's
• 40:16
  going to be bumps. But I think that it's, it
• 40:23
  certainly feels worth it. And it certainly feels like,
• 40:28
  like especially worth it in the long term because you're not
• 40:31
  looking at this as a summer or a year.
• 40:33
  You're looking at it as the, you know, the.
• 40:34
  Rest of your life, was that part of the discernment process for
• 40:37
  you? How the families connected or
• 40:40
  how the kids did with each other?
• 40:41
  Or did that kind of speak into it at all?
• 40:44
  Yeah, I mean, when I was first dating John, he, he was an empty
• 40:49
  nest or he, his kids were all, you know, all out of the house.
• 40:53
  Summit College. So it wasn't until, you know,
• 40:59
  until the girls had come home from break and we've been dating
• 41:02
  for months at that point before I met them.
• 41:06
  But he knew all of my kids because they were at home.
• 41:11
  Well, my kids who were at home, he knew.
• 41:14
  Yeah, it was a little bit strange to meet them after we
• 41:18
  after our relationship was already pretty serious.
• 41:21
  My little kids especially have been just so thrilled to have A
• 41:30
  to have a father figure in the house again and somebody who is
• 41:33
  really willing to be completely open hearted to them.
• 41:39
  But but the relationships, you know, are, are going to be
• 41:42
  different. The, the relationship that you
• 41:47
  know, that I have with, with his kids is going to be different.
• 41:51
  The relationship that he has with my, you know, older kids is
• 41:56
  the, the older five call him John and the younger five call
• 42:00
  him dad. And that was just sort of a
• 42:03
  natural break where that is what felt right for, for them.
• 42:10
  And but everybody has been very friendly and and open.
• 42:17
  It's very beautiful, Kendra, I'm so, so happy for you.
• 42:20
  I know you will always love your first husband and now you know
• 42:23
  he's in heaven and we pray with God forever.
• 42:27
  How has that been to love again when you're you know, is it
• 42:30
  there's a love different. I don't know if you can share,
• 42:32
  share whatever you're comfortable sharing, obviously.
• 42:34
  But I know that when I've talked to people who've lost a spouse
• 42:37
  before, sometimes there's a sense of how can I ever love
• 42:40
  again, you know, because of this first love.
• 42:42
  But then, you know, when they experience, if they do
• 42:45
  experience a new love, they realize, wow, it's, it's, it's
• 42:47
  the same, but it's also very different.
• 42:49
  So there's still this kind of specialness that I had with my
• 42:51
  first spouse and now I have this different specialness with my
• 42:54
  second spouse. I don't know if you have any
• 42:55
  thoughts on that, how that's been for both of you.
• 42:58
  Yeah. And it's something that I have
• 43:00
  heard a lot from from other people is this sort of idea of,
• 43:08
  yeah, how, how could how could you love again?
• 43:11
  And I think part of it stems from, from sort of our, you
• 43:16
  know, our, our fallen nature a little bit that I think that
• 43:19
  there's part of us that thinks, oh, well, you know, if, if I
• 43:24
  die, I want my spouse to just, you know, keep vigil and mourn
• 43:28
  me the whole rest of my life. But that's not how that's not
• 43:35
  how love works in in eternity, right?
• 43:40
  That that we, we have this understanding.
• 43:43
  Well, we, we are aware of this concept that is so hard for us
• 43:47
  to understand of that in heaven, their love is perfect, love is
• 43:51
  perfected. And that means that there won't
• 43:54
  be jealousy and there won't be misunderstanding.
• 43:58
  And so we have to, you know, believe that the the goal,
• 44:04
  right, is that I would get to heaven and that John would get
• 44:07
  to heaven and that Jim is there waiting for us and that we're
• 44:11
  all friends and it's perfectly fine and not weird, right?
• 44:15
  And that's we can't imagine that because we don't have experience
• 44:21
  of love like that. But but I know for me that yes,
• 44:26
  I will always love Jim and I'm so grateful for the way that he
• 44:34
  helped me grow. I'm grateful for my children and
• 44:37
  for the father that he was to them.
• 44:40
  But at the same time, it, it felt very real to me that that
• 44:49
  marriage is until death and it felt like that was over.
• 44:53
  And the, you know, the love remains and the, and, and the,
• 44:58
  you know, the admiration, the gratitude remains.
• 45:00
  But, but I, I did feel available to love again.
• 45:07
  And I think that sometimes you hear from from somebody who only
• 45:12
  has one child and they would say, well, I love this child so
• 45:17
  much. And I wouldn't want to divide my
• 45:20
  love and by, you know, if I have another child, then I wouldn't
• 45:23
  be able to love this one as much.
• 45:25
  And of course, a love for a spouse is different than a love
• 45:28
  for for children. And it's more proprietary.
• 45:32
  It is perfectly proprietary, but but I found that that that that
• 45:39
  love wasn't divided, that it was multiplied and that my love for
• 45:44
  John is just a completely different thing and he's a
• 45:47
  completely different person. And that it's, it's not
• 45:52
  something that feels confusing to me be just because they are,
• 45:57
  you know, that it's just its own thing.
• 46:00
  And, and it's actually I, I appreciate that he knew Jim and
• 46:09
  he, he was at Jim's funeral. So you had met him before?
• 46:14
  I I don't ever remember having had a conversation with him, but
• 46:17
  we sort of ran in the same circles and he and Jim were
• 46:21
  friendly and, you know, and and and had hung out.
• 46:27
  But but I like that he that he knew him and you know, when I,
• 46:34
  when I'm having a, a challenging situation with, with one of the
• 46:38
  kids or something, I will, I will ask Jim, you know, through
• 46:43
  prayer to, to intercede for, you know, for me, for for our kids.
• 46:47
  And I recently found out that John does the same thing that
• 46:51
  John, you know, does because he because he knew Jim and because
• 46:58
  he can see sort of the this legacy that he'd left behind.
• 47:03
  And, and I just, I feel like that it really felt like God
• 47:10
  brought us together, John and I, and that that therefore he must
• 47:15
  be, you know, the right guy to meet these these challenges.
• 47:18
  But. Was there anything specific that
• 47:20
  you did or John did when you were blending the families to
• 47:24
  help prepare the kids for it? And I don't know if there even
• 47:27
  was. It sounds like a lot of it kind
• 47:28
  of fell into place really beautifully.
• 47:30
  But any kind of tips you have for families that may be
• 47:33
  remarrying after loss or the blending family process?
• 47:38
  Yeah, he did. He took the older kids out, you
• 47:42
  know, individually to sort of, you know, talk, talk to them
• 47:45
  one-on-one and like dates. Yes, exactly like, like that.
• 47:52
  And but, yeah, I, I think that it went a long way that that
• 47:57
  they saw that, you know, that, that he wasn't uncomfortable,
• 48:03
  you know, being, being able to, to discuss their, their dad with
• 48:09
  them. So I, I think that that was
• 48:12
  really helpful. But, but mostly just that they
• 48:16
  could see that he wanted to be there and he didn't want to just
• 48:20
  be married to me. He wanted to be part of our
• 48:22
  family. And that his, you know, heart
• 48:25
  was really open to diving back into the deep end of parenting
• 48:31
  and, you know, helping them with their school work and driving
• 48:36
  them places and being willing to do things for them that I was
• 48:40
  like, yeah, I don't think we're going to be able to do that.
• 48:42
  I will drive them. And kids love that.
• 48:47
  So John was married before your marriage to him.
• 48:49
  He has four kids and he was in a relationship where he was
• 48:53
  civilly married, but it wasn't marriage in the eyes of the
• 48:56
  church and ended up being an OLD.
• 48:58
  When you were connecting and dating, did you bond over well
• 49:02
  both of your losses of your previous marriages and what what
• 49:05
  did that look like for you guys? Yes, I I think we definitely
• 49:10
  did. And that's certainly something
• 49:12
  that anybody coming into a second marriage is going to
• 49:15
  have. You know, this baggage and
• 49:18
  baggage is usually considered a a negative thing, but it's just
• 49:22
  you're going to come in with with life experience now, you
• 49:26
  know, mine was I was widowed. He John is divorced and
• 49:32
  annulled, which is a different kind of heartbreak.
• 49:37
  Certainly that was was part of our conversation and and and
• 49:41
  part of our dating and discerning process.
• 49:45
  Divorce and annuled for people that maybe are listening and I
• 49:48
  think there's a conception sometimes of annulment in the
• 49:50
  Catholic Church as the Catholic divorce.
• 49:53
  So in their view, it's like, well, their TS just divorced
• 49:56
  then can you kind of breakdown the differences for folks
• 49:59
  because they are different? Yeah.
• 50:00
  So marriage and divorce is a civil institution, but as far as
• 50:05
  annulment, that that's the Catholic Church being asked to
• 50:09
  look at. Did a marriage happen?
• 50:11
  Did a valid marriage happened between these two people or were
• 50:15
  there reasons that that mean that even though they thought
• 50:21
  that they were married that that there can be defects in like the
• 50:28
  in the marriage ceremony or there can be defects in consent
• 50:34
  that that mean that that a marriage had not happened
• 50:40
  between the people? I think that's something that is
• 50:43
  very controversial and maybe misunderstood by a lot of folks
• 50:46
  because obviously divorce rates are so high today.
• 50:49
  And I know you care deeply about the sanctity of marriage and
• 50:52
  that it's holy. God instituted marriage and you
• 50:55
  know what God has brought together, no man shall put
• 50:57
  asunder. You know, Jesus, our Lord talks
• 50:59
  about how bad divorce is, but there's that important
• 51:04
  distinction of was there a marriage to begin with?
• 51:06
  And what are that? You know, according to the our
• 51:09
  faith and the teaching of our faith, there are some
• 51:11
  prerequisites, requisites that make it a marriage.
• 51:13
  For example, if you force two people to get marriage and
• 51:15
  they're under duress, you sake, you have to get marriage, you
• 51:18
  have to get married. That would not be a valid
• 51:20
  marriage. And so for them to divorce
• 51:22
  civilly, if they civilly got married would not be a divorce
• 51:25
  in the eyes of God. And this is, you know, the
• 51:27
  teaching of the church. Or if they went into marriage
• 51:29
  and one person was deceiving the other person in some way, there
• 51:33
  was a, a lack of knowledge to be able to even make full consent.
• 51:37
  You know, they went in and they were hiding something from the
• 51:39
  other person that could be grounds for an annulment to say
• 51:41
  this wasn't a marriage to begin with.
• 51:43
  And so if you civilly divorce, again, this is not divorce in
• 51:45
  the eyes of God. But there's also, I will say,
• 51:48
  even in in the Catholic tradition and, and, and you
• 51:50
  know, in the Christian world, some people are saying, well,
• 51:52
  people are throwing this around to Willy nilly annulments happen
• 51:56
  too often. I mean, this can be the
• 51:57
  criticism, right, that these are happening too often.
• 51:59
  Did any of that come into your mind or how did you navigate all
• 52:04
  of that? I, I used to feel all of those
• 52:10
  things that they, that you've described and whenever the
• 52:14
  subject would come up, my, my standard quip was that I thought
• 52:18
  that annulments should be granted in the case of
• 52:21
  kidnapping or non consummation. And then other than that,
• 52:24
  probably not. I, I will say that it, it is
• 52:26
  something that definitely came up really early on in our dating
• 52:33
  process. I think it was our, our second
• 52:34
  date, we went hiking and I feel like we got out of the car, we
• 52:41
  made it under the trail and I was like, so when would be a
• 52:44
  good time for us to talk about whether you're still actually
• 52:47
  married? And he's like, now would be the
• 52:51
  time. And, and so it, it was the first
• 52:55
  time that I had spoken to somebody who presented it to me
• 53:03
  as a question. He was asking the church that
• 53:08
  what that he knew that his marriage had been hard and that
• 53:13
  he knew his marriage had broken down and that he was divorced.
• 53:17
  And then at that point, he wanted to know from the church,
• 53:22
  was this marriage valid? Was, was the root of the
• 53:30
  challenges that they face in the marriage.
• 53:32
  Actually, the fact that they didn't have the Sacramento grace
• 53:36
  of a marriage in in order to, you know, support them and
• 53:41
  bolster them. And I it, it ended up really
• 53:48
  changing my perspective on sort of the whole idea of annulment
• 53:52
  and, and on, you know, him specifically as a as a person
• 53:58
  and, and as a potential husband. But, but yeah, he certainly
• 54:07
  didn't see it as as the way that that I think the, you know, the
• 54:14
  outside stereotype of it is that while you just get your divorce
• 54:18
  from the courthouse and that you get your marriage, your
• 54:22
  annulment from the diocese and then you're done.
• 54:25
  But but that he really saw it as this, you know, question that he
• 54:30
  that he wanted to have answered. And that would explain a lot.
• 54:34
  That was really convicting for me of it that that it was a
• 54:40
  different way to look at it. And, you know, then I had
• 54:43
  before. Oh, I guess another thing that
• 54:46
  that was really interesting when, you know, when we were
• 54:49
  first talking about it is that he didn't rejoice when his
• 54:54
  annulment came through like he was.
• 54:56
  He was really devastated just to think that, you know, this thing
• 55:03
  that he thought was wasn't and but but then again, to to look
• 55:10
  at it a little bit farther out. I think that he, you know, he,
• 55:16
  he sees it differently and, you know, to sort of jump back to
• 55:22
  the to, you know, to the trustful surrender that even
• 55:26
  that, that even if you know that God wouldn't will for people to
• 55:35
  enter into a, a what seems like a valid marriage, but that it
• 55:42
  isn't, but that, you know, good things can come out of it.
• 55:51
  You know, purifying suffering can come out of it.
• 55:53
  And, you know, and of course his children came out of it.
• 55:57
  That that are, you know, that that have been a source of joy
• 56:04
  for him and, and are now for me as well.
• 56:08
  But yeah, I think that that annulment is it's such a hard
• 56:13
  thing. It's such a hard thing to, to
• 56:15
  wrap your head around and it is a hard thing for me.
• 56:17
  And I wouldn't ever want to down, you know, downplay that
• 56:21
  because we, we do want to defend and fight for, for marriage and
• 56:28
  we want people to stay married. I I my my big question for the
• 56:33
  Catholic Church on this subject is I'm sure there is a reason
• 56:39
  why, but I would love you to be able to find out about annulment
• 56:45
  before divorce because that seems like that would be the
• 56:49
  right way to go about it for me. But meaning meaning.
• 56:52
  People should pursue annulment before going to a civil divorce.
• 56:56
  Right, which you my understanding is you can't do it
• 56:59
  like that. You have to be divorced before
• 57:01
  you. Can file for annulment.
• 57:03
  Interesting, but procedurally you've got to do You got to
• 57:07
  complete a civil divorce before being able to file for
• 57:10
  annulment. And certainly there are lots of
• 57:12
  reasons where you know to that you would need to be separated.
• 57:19
  But if those considerations weren't in effect, and.
• 57:26
  Well, I'm curious why, why, what's kind of behind that, that
• 57:29
  comment that you're making? Because you know, what were what
• 57:32
  were sort of, I guess the challenges maybe for John
• 57:34
  Persley or that you perceived other people experience because
• 57:37
  they had to go through the process of divorce first.
• 57:41
  This isn't, this is not specific to his situation.
• 57:44
  I just think like, OK, so he changed the way that I see
• 57:49
  annulment and I, and that in his case, it, it makes sense the the
• 57:56
  way that the tribunal ruled and said that this was not a valid
• 58:01
  marriage, but but he, they had to be civilly divorced before he
• 58:09
  could even find that out. And I just, I just wonder like
• 58:15
  there are people who don't get granted an annulment, but
• 58:18
  they've already blown up their life together.
• 58:21
  I see. And yeah.
• 58:24
  And, and I, I wonder if in the case where annulments are not
• 58:29
  granted, you know, then are people able to reconcile?
• 58:34
  Wouldn't it be easier to reconcile if you hadn't been
• 58:36
  civilly divorced? Again, this is just all
• 58:39
  speculation. Well, I.
• 58:40
  Think that that's a really hard teaching, right?
• 58:43
  That is so, yeah, it is a really hard way.
• 58:45
  It is the narrow, the narrow, narrow path.
• 58:47
  And I don't wish it on anyone. And I, you know, I have not had
• 58:50
  to endure this thing. Speak to God.
• 58:51
  I'm so grateful with my husband and my marriage.
• 58:53
  But you know, the very hard path for some folks is that they are
• 58:57
  married. It's a valid marriage.
• 58:59
  You know, there is full knowledge going into it, but
• 59:01
  there was full consent. You know, they, they were freely
• 59:05
  choosing it. They went into it.
• 59:06
  They were open to life in the marriage.
• 59:08
  They knew that that's what they were doing.
• 59:10
  And then something really goes wrong, like there's some haywire
• 59:13
  stuff that happens or abuse, God forbid, develops, you know,
• 59:17
  after the fact. And they do seek a civil divorce
• 59:21
  because they want to protect themselves.
• 59:23
  Maybe then their children. And the church actually has
• 59:26
  provisions for this. Like, yes, you should not, you
• 59:28
  know, continue in a place of abuse that's endangering you
• 59:30
  with your kids. And that's where the church can
• 59:32
  say, yeah, the right thing may may be to get a civil divorce,
• 59:36
  but then an annulment is not granted.
• 59:37
  I mean, even if it sometimes it's sought, sometimes it's not.
• 59:40
  But if it is sought and sometimes it's not granted
• 59:41
  because, yeah, that actually was a valid marriage.
• 59:44
  You just have a really rough situation with a, a spouse that
• 59:47
  went super wayward, you know, or maybe there's, you know,
• 59:49
  infidelity, not infidelity at the time of marriage that was
• 59:53
  hidden, but infidelity that happened later.
• 59:56
  And, and then you have these real people that are, you know,
• 59:59
  they, they discover that they, they have this cross of being
• 1:00:03
  divorced, not being able to remarry because marriage is for
• 1:00:08
  life, because their spouse is still alive, but they're not
• 1:00:11
  with their spouse. Yeah.
• 1:00:12
  No, it's, it is really, really a hard teaching and a hard thing.
• 1:00:20
  And, you know, I think that all we can hope for in that
• 1:00:23
  situation is that someone facing that would be given the grace
• 1:00:29
  that they need to live the the life that they are in.
• 1:00:36
  I have had in my life two really beautiful examples of people who
• 1:00:41
  needed to be separated but did did not seek annulments.
• 1:00:46
  And one was my what's my late husband, Jim's aunt and uncle.
• 1:00:53
  And that they could not live together, but they didn't seek
• 1:00:58
  an annulment. And they were.
• 1:01:00
  And they didn't. Remarry they didn't no, they
• 1:01:02
  neither one remarried. They would they would come to
• 1:01:05
  the family parties and and they were both, you know, involved in
• 1:01:09
  their kids lives. But but, and, and I think that
• 1:01:15
  they still saw each other as, as they they did, they saw each
• 1:01:22
  other as their spouses, but they just, there were good reason
• 1:01:26
  that they couldn't live together.
• 1:01:28
  And that wasn't something that I had any concept could even be
• 1:01:31
  possible as I was growing up. But then there, there she was in
• 1:01:36
  this. By mutual agreement you're
• 1:01:38
  saying so they were like they couldn't they they freely fully
• 1:01:40
  chose the marriage. It was a valid marriage and they
• 1:01:43
  just for whatever reason personality wise just developed.
• 1:01:46
  They couldn't stand each other and they chose to live a part
• 1:01:48
  for harmony's sake. Was that?
• 1:01:49
  Was that what? I think yes, I mean, and there
• 1:01:51
  were, there were serious issues that were, that were making a,
• 1:02:00
  you know, it, it wasn't, it wasn't a cavalier choice, but
• 1:02:05
  but yeah, there were reasons why you wouldn't want to live with
• 1:02:10
  this person. But but they, they did believe
• 1:02:15
  that their marriage was valid. And and so they, you know, they,
• 1:02:20
  they lived their marriage much differently than, you know,
• 1:02:23
  different than than the ideal. But I think it's a beautiful
• 1:02:26
  example and I I appreciated at least even knowing that that was
• 1:02:31
  possible. Heroic I mean, that's like, you
• 1:02:36
  know, the love of a St. to the point of obedience to our Lord
• 1:02:41
  and obedience not to put themselves in, you know,
• 1:02:43
  necessarily abusive or destructive patterns because for
• 1:02:47
  whatever reason, I know we're not in the details of their
• 1:02:48
  story, but it was serious reasons that they were not
• 1:02:51
  living under the same roof. But then that that they're not
• 1:02:54
  remarrying because that would go against the the teaching of our
• 1:02:57
  Lord. You know, we you can't just
• 1:02:59
  throw away a spouse, a true spouse.
• 1:03:01
  This is a real marriage, a true spouse and remarry.
• 1:03:04
  I mean, that's a really, that's a really tough teaching for a
• 1:03:07
  lot of people, but I do I also have seen people live that even
• 1:03:11
  when, you know, in good times and in bad.
• 1:03:13
  And I am thinking particular of a case when I was living in
• 1:03:16
  Washington, DC, I was on a silent retreat and I met this
• 1:03:18
  very joyful, very beautiful woman.
• 1:03:21
  And you know, her story is pretty public.
• 1:03:23
  She has children. She's practicing her faith.
• 1:03:25
  She's full of love for Jesus. Her husband's in prison because
• 1:03:29
  he was a spy. He was literally a foreign agent
• 1:03:32
  that, you know, turned his back on American people and, you
• 1:03:36
  know, was treasonous and was doing work for another foreign
• 1:03:39
  government, you know, while he was supposed to be working for
• 1:03:41
  our government. Long story short, he's in prison
• 1:03:43
  for life, living a double life. But it was a valid marriage.
• 1:03:47
  You know, this develops later on.
• 1:03:49
  And she did not remarry. You know, she's not she, she's
• 1:03:52
  living a single as a single woman, even though she's still
• 1:03:54
  married to this man in prison. She prays for him.
• 1:03:57
  I think she might visit him once a year.
• 1:03:59
  And I I remember learning her story and just being floored by
• 1:04:02
  her witness. I'm sure it's hard, extremely
• 1:04:05
  hard on multiple levels for her, but she's faithful to her vows.
• 1:04:10
  Yeah, that's. Sort of it feels like.
• 1:04:12
  It's incredible. It feels, you know, they what,
• 1:04:15
  it's St. Maximilian Colby, they say is a
• 1:04:17
  martyr of charity, right? Like that.
• 1:04:19
  That's what that feels like. Yeah.
• 1:04:23
  And so in the in the case of Jim's aunt and uncle, it was his
• 1:04:29
  aunt was the one who had married into the family.
• 1:04:32
  But she, you know, wasn't ostracized.
• 1:04:36
  She was still welcomed and and, and considered as as a part of
• 1:04:41
  the family. We named one of our daughters
• 1:04:43
  after her because, you know, she was, she was that big of an
• 1:04:48
  influence on his life. So and, and I know, I know
• 1:04:53
  another family locally that, you know, that that was in a similar
• 1:04:59
  situation where couldn't live together but didn't, but didn't
• 1:05:05
  seek an annulment. And so I, I think that it
• 1:05:09
  doesn't feel right in some ways to say like, oh, and aren't you
• 1:05:12
  so good for doing that, you know, suffering.
• 1:05:17
  But but you know, all I can hope is that, you know, that, that we
• 1:05:23
  aren't given the graces to handle or necessarily even to
• 1:05:27
  understand the the crosses that that are given to other people.
• 1:05:32
  And I think that even when people come up to me and say
• 1:05:36
  like, or more often in a comments on something, say to me
• 1:05:40
  like, how could you get married? And I could never get married
• 1:05:43
  again. And I say, like, it's great that
• 1:05:45
  you think that right now that is the right thing for you to think
• 1:05:49
  because you're married to the person that you're married to
• 1:05:51
  now. But you might feel completely
• 1:05:54
  different if you were in a different situation, if you were
• 1:05:58
  in different circumstances. And then if God worked to give
• 1:06:02
  you the graces to to manage the plan that He has for you.
• 1:06:07
  It's such a good point, Kendra. The God gives us the unique
• 1:06:10
  graces we need for our, for our lot in life and we can marvel at
• 1:06:14
  other people's sufferings or blessings, but we are not in
• 1:06:18
  their shoes. We are not in their shoes.
• 1:06:20
  So we, you know, we, we, God is not giving us the grace for
• 1:06:23
  their shoes, right? It's a really good, it's a, it's
• 1:06:26
  a good reminder because I, I think it is easy to even be
• 1:06:29
  scandalized sometimes by other people's suffering or, you know,
• 1:06:32
  unfortunately envy other people's blessings or whatever.
• 1:06:35
  The whole gamut of comparison that we can enter into when we
• 1:06:37
  look at, you know, other human beings.
• 1:06:40
  And just to remember, like God, God gave us our life to live and
• 1:06:43
  with the graces he gives us and we're supposed to, you know,
• 1:06:46
  maximally love and grow in virtue and all of these things.
• 1:06:49
  But it is, it's our life to live and their life to live and we
• 1:06:52
  can love and serve. But the comparison can become a
• 1:06:55
  that stumbling block if we spend too much time on it, basically.
• 1:06:59
  Yeah, it's true. And, and I think that that's
• 1:07:02
  something that is, I would say apparel of, of Catholic
• 1:07:09
  influencing, right? That or any influence any any
• 1:07:13
  influencing that, that the Catholic Church has a method by
• 1:07:18
  which we identify people who have lived lives of virtue that
• 1:07:23
  we should emulate and those people.
• 1:07:25
  Are already dead and is not how many Instagram likes you got or
• 1:07:29
  video views. You got right and so any of us
• 1:07:32
  who are living like we are still stumbling through trying to find
• 1:07:36
  our way and, and it, you know, the, the end of our sufferings,
• 1:07:43
  the end of our, you know, the challenges that we face the you
• 1:07:48
  know, we can't see that we can't and other people can't so.
• 1:07:52
  Such a good point. Yeah.
• 1:07:54
  And the markers of holiness, I mean, look at what you know to
• 1:07:57
  be tended to value in this world, which is, you know,
• 1:07:59
  comfort, success, you know, worldly things or you know,
• 1:08:02
  health, their beauty or whatever the things that we may be
• 1:08:05
  tempted to value. And even though, or even the
• 1:08:08
  good things like the spiritual things that we may want to
• 1:08:10
  value, you know, this graces that we may value.
• 1:08:13
  But at the end of the day, what what we when you look at back at
• 1:08:17
  someone's life and whether or not they lived a holy life?
• 1:08:21
  And I like that it looks different.
• 1:08:22
  Yeah. But especially if I, if I'm
• 1:08:25
  worrying like, oh, you know, I need to, I need to be sharing
• 1:08:28
  this with more people. I need to, you know, I need to
• 1:08:31
  reach more people because with, you know, with my apostolate,
• 1:08:34
  whatever. And then I think about Saint
• 1:08:36
  Therese of Lasso and how she lives a completely anonymous
• 1:08:42
  life in this tiny convent in this small town in France and.
• 1:08:48
  But she wrote a really good book.
• 1:08:50
  But what? Yes, but at but at the behest,
• 1:08:53
  at the direction of her sister, she wrote it down.
• 1:08:56
  It's a great no one saw it during her life.
• 1:08:59
  And then after her death, it's it it was published and became
• 1:09:04
  one of the best selling books in the world ever.
• 1:09:09
  And such an influence on so many people.
• 1:09:12
  And she never saw any of that. All she did was it was be
• 1:09:18
  obedient to a direction given to her by her mother superior, who
• 1:09:22
  was also her big sister, and that must have been bothersome.
• 1:09:27
  Well, that's a that's a good one to think about.
• 1:09:29
  That's a good one to think about.
• 1:09:30
  Thank you, Kendra. Thank you for being so open and
• 1:09:32
  sharing about it, because I know obviously it's all very private
• 1:09:35
  stuff, your family, your vocation making these decisions.
• 1:09:38
  But I know that when people hear stories like yours, it brings a
• 1:09:42
  lot of hope. And then there's also it's
• 1:09:44
  instructive. It's like how to do these
• 1:09:45
  complicated things when life is messy and life gets messy and
• 1:09:49
  and can include things like law. So thank you.
• 1:09:52
  It's it's all very beautiful and and very good.
• 1:09:55
  How has your work changed or has it changed since remarrying?
• 1:10:00
  Yeah, I have been taking things a little bit slower on on the on
• 1:10:08
  the work front. I've always tried to view it and
• 1:10:13
  I, I imagine you can can understand this, but you know,
• 1:10:17
  when you're working as a Catholic professionally, that
• 1:10:23
  that you, you do have to allow yourself to be led by the Holy
• 1:10:26
  Spirit and that there that, that there will be an sort of ebb and
• 1:10:31
  flow on things. So I've tried to let myself be
• 1:10:35
  led on, you know, where I'm supposed to spend most of my
• 1:10:38
  energy. But yes, Catholic all year is
• 1:10:40
  alive and well and I've got a great team and we are, yeah.
• 1:10:46
  Continuing to create, I hope, great content for families who
• 1:10:51
  want to, you know, who want to practice liturgical living in
• 1:10:55
  the home and want to use that, that framework of the liturgical
• 1:10:59
  calendar to, you know, to introduce Catholic doctrine and
• 1:11:05
  Saints lives and, and things to their families.
• 1:11:09
  Jim was always a big supporter of, of Catholic Olier and
• 1:11:13
  thought that what I was doing was important, which John feels
• 1:11:16
  the same way, which is, which is great.
• 1:11:19
  So and he actually used to be the editor of the OSB newspaper
• 1:11:27
  so. Very.
• 1:11:29
  Cool. So I have now in house editing,
• 1:11:31
  which is great and yeah, it kind of feels like like there might
• 1:11:38
  be things we could collaborate on in the future, which would be
• 1:11:41
  really fun. I like working with him.
• 1:11:43
  So all right, tell us more about the calendar.
• 1:11:45
  OK and your latest projects. Yes all right so I I brought I
• 1:11:49
  brought you our calendar. Thank you and it's super cute.
• 1:11:53
  That is super cute illustrations in it.
• 1:11:55
  This for 2025 are all little liturgical living in the home
• 1:11:59
  traditions that are our favorites.
• 1:12:01
  My kids were so excited looking at it.
• 1:12:03
  The calendar has obviously feast days and seasons and fasting
• 1:12:08
  days and, and it also has little reminders of prayers that are
• 1:12:13
  associated with particular feast days or little activities that
• 1:12:15
  you might want to do with your families.
• 1:12:17
  And I think especially moms of all young children, you know,
• 1:12:22
  that it can feel really overwhelming.
• 1:12:24
  And sometimes there's just, you know, like little things that
• 1:12:27
  you can do. And if you know the one thing
• 1:12:29
  you do in November is pray for the dead in a cemetery.
• 1:12:32
  I love this. I mean, this is so great.
• 1:12:34
  And I, I to be honest, I don't use a real calendar, but I'm
• 1:12:37
  going to take this, put it in my kitchen because even what you've
• 1:12:41
  so thoughtfully chosen for each month.
• 1:12:42
  And I just went to November because we're this is coming out
• 1:12:44
  in November this episode and it says pray for the dead in in a
• 1:12:48
  cemetery. And this is the Christian
• 1:12:50
  tradition of prayer for the dead, rest in peace, prayer for
• 1:12:55
  those that have passed before us.
• 1:12:56
  And it is a very special thing to go to a cemetery and thank
• 1:13:00
  God for the gift of our life and the gift of salvation and also
• 1:13:02
  to pray for those that have passed before us.
• 1:13:04
  And so you have this pray for the dead in the cemetery.
• 1:13:07
  Can you just share briefly, because we're going to get asked
• 1:13:09
  this in the comment section and I think it's a great question
• 1:13:12
  and debate and we're not going to get into the whole debate
• 1:13:14
  theologically here, But what is the scriptural background and
• 1:13:19
  Christian tradition around praying for the dead?
• 1:13:21
  Because there is some controversy here among folks on
• 1:13:24
  different parts of Christendom, those that are maybe evangelical
• 1:13:27
  or Protestant, who are hesitant about this because there is a
• 1:13:30
  prohibition about inviting the dead.
• 1:13:34
  You know, is it trying to communicate with the dead in the
• 1:13:36
  Old Testament? How is this different?
• 1:13:39
  If you can just share. Yeah, so the, the Catholic
• 1:13:43
  tradition of praying for the dead in a cemetery, especially
• 1:13:46
  in the month of November, comes from the the Catholic churches
• 1:13:50
  teaching on purgatory. The Catholic teaching is that
• 1:13:54
  that what we read in the Bible, the, you know, teachings of the
• 1:13:59
  the early Church fathers has this purgatory shaped toll.
• 1:14:05
  And so we there there must be some place of purification and
• 1:14:08
  there are scripture versus that that allude to this.
• 1:14:12
  But there must be some place of purification where the dead
• 1:14:16
  can't can't pray for themselves. They can't do good works
• 1:14:20
  anymore. But but they are there waiting
• 1:14:25
  and, and undergoing this time of purification and that we the
• 1:14:31
  living can still pray for them. And these are people who you
• 1:14:35
  know, in the, in the like, you know, sheep versus goats.
• 1:14:39
  They're sheep. They've been, they've been
• 1:14:41
  sorted into, you know, that they will go to heaven, but they're
• 1:14:44
  not ready to present themselves before God.
• 1:14:47
  Therefore, therefore they, they need our prayers.
• 1:14:52
  And it's something that's really meaningful for children that,
• 1:14:56
  that I think that there's a tendency in our country and in
• 1:15:00
  our culture to try to sort of hide from death to, and
• 1:15:04
  especially to hide death from children.
• 1:15:07
  But but it is this natural part of, of life and that it's not
• 1:15:13
  something that that if we believe what we say we believe,
• 1:15:16
  it's not something that we have to have this horror of that we
• 1:15:19
  can see it as part of our journey.
• 1:15:22
  And and that, you know, my kids get so excited when I tell them,
• 1:15:27
  all right, we're going to go to the cemetery.
• 1:15:28
  We're going to pray for the people who are buried there.
• 1:15:33
  And that our prayers might mean that, you know, that might
• 1:15:39
  coincide with them, you know, reaching the end of their period
• 1:15:43
  of purification and that they might be able to, you know,
• 1:15:47
  shoot right up to heaven. And imagine what a great welcome
• 1:15:52
  that will be when we're when, you know, when we get to be
• 1:15:54
  reunited with people that we had prayed for and even strangers.
• 1:15:57
  It's such a meaningful prayer to say, you know, to pray for the
• 1:16:01
  people that we love who have died and then also for people
• 1:16:04
  who don't have people to pray for them.
• 1:16:06
  And we pray for the repose of their soul is great.
• 1:16:09
  And to go all the way back to what you were saying at the
• 1:16:11
  beginning, which was so beautiful about taking
• 1:16:14
  everything in life as a gift from God and really meant for us
• 1:16:18
  specifically by God, whether in his allowance, in his will, or
• 1:16:22
  specifically willed. This was for our good and he
• 1:16:25
  uses it specifically for our good.
• 1:16:26
  Anyways, I think it's really a beautiful thing to remember that
• 1:16:31
  when we accept everything we get in this life with full trust in
• 1:16:35
  Jesus and, you know, asking God to use it for his glory and you
• 1:16:39
  know, having it with that sporting heroic loving Spirit,
• 1:16:42
  You know, that means that after we pass, that's less
• 1:16:45
  purification in purgatory. That's why they make the joke
• 1:16:48
  like, you know, if you annoy me in this life or if I have to say
• 1:16:51
  get I'm impatient with you, but I'm still, I feel impatient, but
• 1:16:54
  I still act patient with you. I'm saving off time in
• 1:16:57
  purgatory. That's right.
• 1:16:58
  You've heard that. I mean no, I have heard.
• 1:17:00
  That you are my purgatory. Here's the whole.
• 1:17:03
  Thing, but the joke all need purgation.
• 1:17:05
  We all need purgation. Yes.
• 1:17:07
  And the joke is that you can, you know that that it's going to
• 1:17:10
  take a lot more time to work it off in purgatory more than it
• 1:17:12
  would now. So just make the most of it.
• 1:17:14
  Yeah. Don't get the blemish now.
• 1:17:16
  But yeah. Kendra, you are awesome.
• 1:17:18
  Thank you so much for coming on again.
• 1:17:20
  Where can people find your work? They can find me at
• 1:17:23
  catholicallyear.com. And I am Kendra Tierney Norton
• 1:17:28
  or Catholic all year on Instagram.
• 1:17:31
  I'm on formed on Facebook, YouTube.
• 1:17:36
  We're just all over the place. Congratulations again, so happy
• 1:17:40
  for you. Thank you so much.
• 1:17:41
  A huge thank you to our partner. EWTNEWTN is the largest
• 1:17:46
  religious network, reaching millions of people with the
• 1:17:49
  truth of the faith, entertainment and news.
• 1:17:52
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