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Having the Courage to Connect: How to Develop Independence Within a Relationship · The Virtual Couch

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Music.
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Hey everybody, welcome to episode 421 of The Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay.
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I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified mindful habit coach,
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a writer-speaker, and now an Arizonian, which I do not remember if it's Arizona-n
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or Arizonian, but I digress.
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Let's get to the episode today. If you want to know more about upcoming re-releases
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of a magnetic marriage course,
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you join my Path Back Online recovery course, or if you are a guy who is hoping
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to figure himself out, reach out to me about the very, very soon to be emotional
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architects by monthly group calls.
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And that is something I put a lot of time and effort to get to the content there
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to just help people know what they don't know, learn to sit with discomfort,
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wake up to emotional immaturity, start to be more emotionally consistent,
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all the buzzwords, but every single one of those, I feel like I've lived,
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I've experienced, so I can speak from a place of confidence.
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And so I would love to help guys get to that place as well.
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Go to TonyOverbay.com, sign up for the newsletter, or you can shoot me a message
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at contact at TonyOverbay.com.
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Especially, I mentioned at the end of the last episode, if you are interested
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in working with me one-on-one, if you feel like that might be something that
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you would be interested in, either an individual or a couple,
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just reach out to me at contact at TonyOverbay.com.
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Tell me a little bit more about your story and what kind of help you might be looking for.
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So today's story is based on true events and real people. Some things have been
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changed ever so slightly.
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So Lisa and Mike are a couple in their late 30s. And growing up,
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both of them admitted that they witnessed their own set of family drama in Lisa's
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family and Mike's family.
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Lisa's mom used anger and silence as her go-to moves.
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And that made the air in her home, she said, you could just feel the anxiety.
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It was palpable. It was tangible. When you walked in, it almost felt like an anxiety force field.
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Now, Mike's dad, he preferred guilt and a lot of blame to keep everybody in
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line, which meant a lot of just tiptoeing around.
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So when they met, they clicked instantly because they were drawn together by,
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they felt like almost this shared sense of understanding about their less than
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ideal childhoods. They felt like they could just both be open and they really got each other.
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And so they bonded over sharing about the challenges that they had growing up from their past.
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But as they started dating, they started to realize that they really weren't
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equipped to handle disagreements.
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And this isn't like on agreement on disagreement one, they thought,
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well, this is fascinating.
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We don't really have the tools. This is something that evolved over time.
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The arguments were there, but they did the classic when they would get in an
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argument, they would both hunker down, they would hurl insults,
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they would withdraw, they would get into the tit for tat or the freeze and flee
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or the pursuer and the withdrawal.
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And then they would go into their bunkers. One of them would poke their head
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out from time to time, and then they would say, hey, are we good?
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And the other one would say, yeah, we're okay.
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So it was absolutely one of those situations where the we got through it or
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things are okay now or things are good really just meant things were no longer bad.
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And that absence of bad does not mean that the relationship is good.
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And these little tiny misunderstandings would start to just spiral and spiral,
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and it would eventually make its way into a silent treatment or really snarky
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comments because neither of them knew how to talk about their feelings without
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worrying about the other person's reaction.
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So they're doing a lot of managing their partners' emotions and anxiety through
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the way that they showed up, and they're not going to get that right.
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So, their relationship settled into something comfortable. It was very familiar,
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but it was pretty shallow and it lacked depth. They wanted deeper conversations.
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So, even though they both agreed that they felt unfulfilled by the time they
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came into my office, Lisa and Mike were so much more afraid of being alone than
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actually changing their behaviors or changing their ways.
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And they had both convinced themselves that this whole, their lukewarm relationship
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was about as good as it could ever be. because, after all, stepping into the
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unknown was daunting and scary and uncomfortable.
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And they did what so many couples do and just said, well, it's a myth that couples
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can get better as they get older. This is just where everybody settles into.
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And those are things that they would say to themselves and to each other at
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times to make themselves feel more comfortable or to just feel like,
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okay, so it's okay that we don't really have that kind of a connection.
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Nobody must have that kind of a connection at this point in a relationship.
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So, I have a couple of interactions that I remember that were pretty notable.
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One we'll just call the misunderstood comment. They are having dinner one night.
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It was a pretty quiet evening because most of them were because at this point, the kids were gone.
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They were somewhere. They had a couple of kids. But Mike mentions offhand that,
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you know, he's like, I really actually, I would like to eat out more often.
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And not even as a critique, but really kind of a change of pace.
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And Lisa, her go-to is interpreting comments as criticism because that's what
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she saw her mom do right out of her mom's playbook.
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So she gets really defensive. And then she snaps back that he never appreciates
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her cooking. So then Mike, all of a sudden he feels attacked.
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And so he shuts down and he just goes right into silent treatment,
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silent mode, or not even just that, but even just the he's, he's frozen,
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or he's just going to just wait this one out, hunker down in his bunker.
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Cause he was replaying these avoidant patterns that he saw in his dad growing
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up that a simple comment about dinner, all of a sudden spirals into,
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to, in essence, like a cold war, shutting down any chance for a real conversation
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about what they both might enjoy.
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And they're so used to this that Mike had mentioned that if he saw that that
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happened, then he knew it's two to three days maybe of just feeling like he's
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going to be pretty alone.
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They're going to go about their business. They're not even going to really look
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at each other. They're not going to talk about things.
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And so we'll put that one aside. The second interaction, we'll just call it
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the planning dispute. So picture him trying to plan a weekend in getaway.
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And Mike, not knowing that Lisa had had a rough week at work,
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suggests let's go camping.
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And Lisa, who really wants, because of this rough week, comfort, she wants ease.
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She just wants to relax, almost to feel like a little bit pampered.
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Even if she has to pamper herself, she immediately takes a suggestion as thoughtless.
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And she just gets on him about him always making the decisions without considering her.
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And she told me later that she said, I mean, how could he not have have understood
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that the last thing I would have wanted to do is go sleep in some sleeping bag on the ground.
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Mike, he's stung by the accusation. And so then what does he do?
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He snaps back with sarcasm.
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Another defensive tactic that he had picked up from his dad.
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So the discussion falls apart and then they both feel bitter and they both feel misunderstood.
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And that kind of clash, that is the thing that underscores their struggle to
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balance their own anxiety with their desires.
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And so what does that do? It leads to conflict.
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Nobody's feeling heard. We're nowhere even near approaching any sort of compromise.
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And that pattern just repeats itself over and over and over.
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Those examples really highlight the importance of being able to handle your
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own business, handle personal anxieties, and also try to be true to yourself in a relationship.
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So Lisa and Mike, it's pretty clear they're stuck repeating very old,
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familiar family patterns, but what they're missing out on is a deeper connection.
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And when they got married, they just thought we would grow older together.
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We would have so many amazing experiences and times, but they're missing out
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on that because they can't navigate their differences at all.
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It's not very constructive when they can't even have a conversation about him
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wanting to go out to eat or going camping or her assuming that he should know
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that how dare he want to go camping when she's had a rough week moving forward.
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Then mission number one is they really need to learn to sit with discomfort
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because in that discomfort, that's where we find growth.
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And it sounds logical. It might even sound easy, but the job as the therapist
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there was to help them see their differences, not as obstacles,
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but those are opportunities to strengthen their partnership.
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And basically they've spent however many years as if they've gotten to a place
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where, okay, they've already agreed on all the things they need to agree on.
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And now anything new just feels like a threat.
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And that is what brings up a tremendous amount of discomfort.
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So today, I really want to focus on how our past experiences or our learned
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behaviors come into play and they influence our current connections.
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And I'm going to focus primarily on our spouse or maybe even on our kids today.
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Because I think a lot of people like Lisa and Mike, we find ourselves replaying
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these emotional scripts that we grew up with and we typically don't even realize it.
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As a matter of fact, I would love for you to give yourself grace if you are
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realizing it or even what we've talked about in the first 10 minutes brings
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up some feelings or emotions because how could you know what you don't know
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and you're operating from a home base of this is what I saw.
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So these scripts, whether they involve avoiding conflict or suppressing,
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withholding our feelings or misinterpreting signals or making meaning out of
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words that our partner then says, that isn't what I actually meant.
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Those things shape the entire dynamic of our relationships.
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So I want to go really deep today on embracing discomfort and fostering really,
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really true differentiation and how that will lead to richer,
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more fulfilling partnerships. partnerships and differentiation.
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Remember being true to yourself while in close proximity to others,
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you know, trying to figure out your independence while maintaining a connection with somebody else,
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because differentiation I've learned, especially over the past few months,
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and that it's not just this psychology buzzword.
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This is, this is a game changing, crucial skill that allows us to maintain our
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identity and actually discover our identity and our personal values,
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even as we grow closer to our partners.
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And this whole process, it requires and involves understanding and managing
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our anxiety independent, which is absolutely essential for healthy and even
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passionate relationships.
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So, this story about Lisa and Mike and these examples, they're really common.
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And I could have picked a whole lot of different ones. They just happen to be
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the people that were in my office when I started putting this episode together. other.
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But both partners in that situation or in so many situations shaped by their
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childhood environments, they fall into patterns that prevent them from truly
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connecting and they find safety in the familiar.
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Let that one sit. They find safety in the familiar and they avoid the uncomfortable
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and the unknown. We fear uncertainty.
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We crave certainty. The unknown seems scary because we don't know what's going to happen.
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And we're basing so much of what that future looks like based off of the past.
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Well, this has happened.
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So what if this thing happens in the future?
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And one of the most powerful tools I think I've learned from ACT is that we
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often ruminate about the past and worry about the future and our brains doing
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that to try to help us make sense of the present.
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So if I go back to, but this is what's always happened in the past,
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truly the best answer to that is absolutely that has.
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And then what if this happens in the future? Well, that would be a thing.
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But what we really have control of is right now, in that present moment,
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how I show up, what I bring to this relationship, and what am I going to learn
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through things like discomfort.
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What we'll see as we dig into more of these interactions is the safety comes
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at the cost of intimacy and at the cost of growth.
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And so when we start to unpack Lisa and Mike's responses and their reactions,
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we can start to understand the importance of confronting rather than shying
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away from the discomfort that comes with change and even better,
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that comes with emotional honesty.
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It takes a lot of courage to be emotionally honest. Because if we even just
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go back to those examples again, they really highlight this role of handling
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your personal anxiety and embracing your true self in a relationship.
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Lisa and Mike, they were pretty stuck in their ways and they show how easy it
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is to fall into the cycle of avoidance and then just superficial conversations.
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And ultimately, that stunts the relationship's growth.
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And if you really want a thriving partnership, they and all of us have to learn
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to navigate our differences more constructively.
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And we have to have that courage to be able to be curious about our partner
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and their differences and drop the assumptions and really just get so curious.
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And that's going to mean sitting with discomfort that comes from challenging
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these deep-seated fears and embracing these opportunities for intimacy and connection
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that they come up when we do step out there and make ourselves open and vulnerable.
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And it's not just about finding common ground. That's what we often do to get
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rid of our anxiety or to alleviate our discomfort is we immediately jump right
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to, can we work some sort of compromise?
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And I find that early in couples therapy, compromise is often,
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and it's not necessarily a win, but is achieved often by the person who has
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achieved it more often than not throughout the relationship.
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The person that might be a little louder, might be a little bit more persistent,
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might be one who maybe finds themselves a little little more gaslighting.
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And for anybody that's somewhat new to the virtual couch, or even this concept
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of differentiation, or if you've heard it a whole bunch of times,
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if right now you feel uncomfortable thinking, okay, here, this guy goes again
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about differentiation of self, and he's probably going to start talking about Murray Bowen.
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Which I am, but just very briefly, even those very feelings of,
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oh man, that's all this guy's been talking about.
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Well, it's because I really feel like it's something that's important.
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And if you don't quite really have a grip on what it means to be differentiated
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or what that process even looks like, then bring that discomfort along a little
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bit longer and hear me out because we're going to go in a completely different
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direction than I have in the past when I've talked about differentiation.
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Yes, Bowen, he zeroes in on this idea that our anxieties are not just our own.
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That they are part of this bigger web of relationships, and we're all kind of
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entangled in those. It's that enmeshment.
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So, whether we are the ones that are chasing the pursuer, or whether we're the
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ones that are pulling away the withdrawer,
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we're all dealing with our own anxiety and avoidance in ways that then spill
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over into our relationships, not just our primary, maybe romantic,
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sexual, or marital relationship.
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But when you really understand that concept of differentiation,
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we're putting this into all of our relationships.
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Just as an example, then consider a parent who they become overwhelmed by their
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own anxiety or fear or frustration, or you name it.
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And then they end up yelling at their kid.
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Now, when you look at it from a differentiated standpoint and start from a place of that's a them thing,
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when they end up shouting at their kid, it's a quick fix and it diffuses the
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tension in that moment for the parent, but they're handing it over to the kid.
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It doesn't solve the underlying issue.
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You know, I actually talked to somebody earlier today who said that they have
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some real issues with giving gifts.
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And they said that their mom would give a gift, then explain how he most likely
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wouldn't want it and that he could return it. And here's the gift receipt.
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So it's not a far stretch in this context of being differentiated to say that
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she was diffusing her anxiety and insecurity of getting a gift that wouldn't be appreciated.
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Then by proactively letting him know that he probably wouldn't like it.
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And as a matter of fact, she's already made it easy for him to return it already
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before he has even seen it.
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Now, if you want to go a little deeper, and I know I'm making some assumptions
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here, but I can say with some surety that I've worked with a person or two or
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a dozen who have expressed similar behavior about this proactive apology.
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And I have often seen that it comes from watching a parent dismiss or even complain
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in this scenario about a gift that they've received from the other parent.
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So there it is, model behavior. So instead of gratitude, there's indifference,
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ignoring, or in the case of if we're talking extreme emotional immaturity or
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narcissistic traits and tendencies, now it ends up being used against the gift giver.
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I can't believe you got me a new hammer. This one's a true story.
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Why would you think that I would want a new hammer? That's ridiculous.
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A new hammer of all things, even though he had repeatedly said that he would
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be able able to finish some of the projects around the home if he had a better hammer.
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But then he continued to not buy one. He just wanted to complain about,
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I could have done these things without a hammer or if I had had a better hammer.
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So yes, she did actually think he wanted one.
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But in that particular case though, she expressed that and he did not say, oh my gosh, my bad.
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No, he said, I never said that. That's ridiculous.
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So then to relieve her feelings of anxiety, she apologized.
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That's the role that she had learned to play in the relationship because she
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She saw that with her mom and watching her parents interact with each other,
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or she did that and tried to diffuse her dad's anxiety when he was going to
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take it out on the kids, her brothers and sisters, when she was growing up.
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There's the pattern. And yes, it breaks my heart. If she was able to feel comfortable
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in her own skin, and if she was able to tolerate that discomfort,
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and please do not get me wrong.
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The last thing I'm saying is she just needs to stand in there and take it by
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all means. No, no, not at all.
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Because the process of becoming differentiated is a process.
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It can be a pretty lengthy one. You know, we don't come by it naturally.
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So let me get back to this point.
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So we got this Bowen, father differentiation, believe that to uplift and improve
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our family systems truly,
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each person needs to learn to take responsibility for their own anxiety and
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discomfort rather than hand it over to other people in the family, right?
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Jennifer Finlayson-Fyfe, who I have had her on several times, a wonderful guest.
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I have heard her say when discussing differentiation that it's about taking
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responsibility for your discomfort rather than, and I love this phrase,
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and this is the game changer of today's episode, but taking responsibility for
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your discomfort rather than diffusing it into the relationship or into the family setting.
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So let that one sink in. Because how often do we, because we're upset or frustrated
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or embarrassed, bring those big emotions to our partners or place them on our kids?
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And I'll give us credit and our albeit subconscious efforts to diffuse them into the relationship.
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It's like we're saying, I'm angry. I'm going to let you know about it.
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So now you are in charge of managing it for me because I am unable to self-soothe.
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I'm unable to calm myself down, come back to the present moment.
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And in reality, then after the adult does diffuse it into the relationship,
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then they actually might feel better.
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So then what do they do? Now they apologize.
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And it is fantastic for them emotionally because now they feel better.
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But it's also emotionally inconsistent for the rest of the family,
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leaving them walking on eggshells, wondering which version of dad they might
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get. And then what's their role going to be that they need to be able to do
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to keep the family afloat? Do they need to validate dad?
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You're the best dad ever. Or do they manage his anxiety and quickly pick up
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their stuff before he lets loose?
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So for the parent in this situation, this ability to self-manage,
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to self-soothe and regulate our anxiety and our own emotions,
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again, especially with our kids, it is so important. And it's important for
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our personal development.
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Yes, let's start and appreciate a little bit of the foundational work about
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differentiation laid by Murray Bowen. he was a psychiatrist and a pioneer in
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family therapy, and he developed the family systems theory.
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At the heart of his theory is this concept of differentiation of self,
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which essentially describes an individual's ability to maintain their sense
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of self while in close emotional relationships.
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And that was pretty groundbreaking at the time. And Bowen's insights were derived
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from a combination of clinical research.
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And then he had a lot of these innovative family studies, including one that
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is really well known in psychology.
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It's this longitudinal study at the National Institute of Mental Health,
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where he observed families over incredibly extended periods of time to try and
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see if he could understand or somewhat replicate the intergenerational behaviors
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or how we pass these things down,
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even things like a lack of differentiation from generation to generation.
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And then his work really taught us that well-differentiated people,
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they can manage their own emotional needs and still be emotionally connected
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to other people without losing their individuality.
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And then here's the person that I've really been finding a lot of value in their
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work and unfortunately passed away.
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I believe it might have been in 2020, but that's David Schnarch.
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And Jennifer Finlesson-Fyfe, who I've had on the podcast several times,
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I know is someone who references Schnarch a lot.
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And I think I just heard her talk about him enough and seen other quotes about
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Schnarch that I've really done a deep dive and so appreciate that he has brought
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incredibly fresh perspectives to the field of differentiation within marriage
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and then really a lot within the marital or sexual relationships.
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And Schnarch was a clinical psychologist, and then he really emphasized the
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role of sexual intimacy as basically
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this platform or muse for personal development and differentiation.
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And then his concepts around that, they challenge couples to maintain a strong
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sense of self within the intimacy around their sexual relationship,
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which then helps them advocate for mature adult sexuality that fosters a partner's growth.
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He has a pretty incredible book called Passionate Marriage, where he takes a
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lot of real-life case studies to illustrate how couples evolve through conflict,
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which is so important, and their sexually intimate lives.
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And that will then test these opportunities to grow through discomfort.
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So, and his approach not only built on Bowen's theory, but it also, I really appreciate it.
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He introduces a lot of practical strategies, especially for couples to be able
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to cultivate more of an intimate relationship and then maintain their own mutual
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respect and personal integrity.
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So you put those two together, Bowen and Schnarch, and now you've got a whole
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framework for understanding relationships through this lens of differentiation,
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through the opportunity to
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grow through discomfort, because we all feel uncomfortable in situations.
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And when that can turn into an opportunity for growth, it is fascinating.
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And they show that how this differentiated sense of self, it actually will lead
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to more fulfilling, more resilient relationships, full of depth.
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And then that is where the true intimacy and personal growth comes.
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So when we were talking about Lisa and Mike's journey today,
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now if you were able to go back and listen and keep these principles in mind
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and think about how they would apply not only to romantic partnerships,
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but also just generic interactions with family or friends or colleagues.
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What I want to do is I want to just give a little bit more background on the
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foundational principles around differentiation from Bowen and Schnarch.
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And then we're going to get into the deep end of the pool.
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So Bowen talked about a concept called emotional fusion versus differentiation.
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So the differentiation itself, again, the degree that an individual can separate
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their own intellectual and emotional functioning from that of their family.
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He observed that in emotionally fused families, when there was just a meshment,
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that individuals within the family system struggled to make decisions independently.
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They needed somebody else to tell them things were okay or how to think.
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And that often produced this groupthink mentality where then,
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and I don't want to say the bulliest of the bully in the relationship,
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but maybe the person who was the loudest.
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Or maybe sometimes I even think the more emotionally immature is going to end
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up making a lot of the decisions.
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You're almost playing to this,
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I want to say, lowest common denominator within that enmeshed family.
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He also talked about triangles and triangulation.
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Bowen said that the triangle is the smallest stable relationship system,
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which makes it sound like we're saying, well, that's cool, but hang on.
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In times of tension, a dyad or a two-person relationship might then pull in
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a third person to try to stabilize themselves.
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So one person in the relationship, if they feel emotionally immature or they
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lack confidence, then they may start to bring in, well, your sister also thinks you're this way.
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Or I was talking to the doctor today and he thinks that you need to do something different.
24:12
And they do it to try to destabilize themselves. But well-differentiated people,
24:15
they can resist being triangulated and maintain direct communication.
24:20
Well, I want to know what you think. My sister's got her own opinion, that kind of thing.
24:24
And then Bowen also talked about multi-generational transmission.
24:27
Where he explores how families pass along their emotional processes throughout the generations.
24:32
And then less differentiated individuals, they will then follow the whole family
24:36
pattern a lot more closely.
24:38
But then more differentiated people can break those cycles. That's my hope for
24:42
you is that as you become more differentiated, which you can do through your
24:46
relationship, that you now can break those familial patterns and cycles.
24:51
And then he also had a concept called the nuclear family emotional system.
24:54
And he just said here that the patterns in a nuclear family,
24:57
like marital conflict, dysfunction in a spouse, impairment, challenges with
25:01
one or more of the children, that those are expressions of the emotional system.
25:05
So, when one person starts to really get out of alignment within the family
25:09
system, then that is key that something's happening to disrupt the family system.
25:15
Something different is happening here.
25:17
And so, then differentiation starts to affect how those patterns show up.
25:21
And then he also had a concept called a family projection process.
25:24
And that is where it's the transmission of emotional issues from a parent to a child.
25:29
It's passing along the anxiety of a parent onto the kid.
25:33
And this is what I think that we really, if we're going to be pretty honest
25:37
and all self-confronting, that there's a fair amount of this where sometimes
25:42
we don't even realize we're doing this.
25:43
But if we're wanting our kid, and I deal with this a lot when people are going
25:46
through a divorce and they say, I want to do what's best for the kids.
25:49
But then what they do is they get really sad around the kids.
25:54
And then if they say, if the kids say, hey, what's wrong, mom?
25:57
And if they're saying, well, you know, I wish that we weren't getting a divorce,
26:00
but it's what your dad wants.
26:01
And you will hear the wife say in that scenario, hey, I'm just being honest with the kids.
26:07
Are you saying, I need to get rid of my anxiety or my emotion onto my kid so my kid can validate me?
26:15
And also because it's almost that form of triangulation again.
26:18
So then now I have somebody on my side versus me taking ownership of my feelings
26:24
and then inviting those to come with me to be present for the kid so that the
26:28
kid doesn't take on those emotions of,
26:30
oh my gosh, I need to now comfort my mom or dad instead of being a kid.
26:35
That process alone, that is going to impede the kid's process of being differentiated.
26:42
It's going to start to parentify a kid, and it's going to cause them to miss out on childhood.
26:48
And that's where you start to hear these concepts of the old soul,
26:51
which sounds pretty cool if you're a blues singer.
26:53
But if that is just you're showing up in fourth grade and you know how to make
26:57
all of your brother and sister's lunches and get them dressed and do their hair
27:01
because mom's really, really emotional and sad because of where their mom and dad's relationship is,
27:07
then that is something that is your opportunity in that scenario for the mom
27:12
to learn what to do with their own discomfort and anxiety,
27:16
to be able to self-soothe, to be able to self-regulate and then show up and
27:20
be present to be able to be there for the kids.
27:22
And either, I mean, the mom, the dad, and I could give examples of both.
27:26
So let's talk about Schnarch. This is the stuff I've been learning more and
27:28
more about. And I just think it's so, so amazing, so fascinating.
27:31
He built on Bowen's ideas and then he put them specifically in the context,
27:35
as I mentioned earlier, you've got the marital relationship,
27:38
but also in the sexual relationships.
27:40
And here's where it gets really fun. He focused on self-validation versus others'
27:45
validation because Schnarch argued that a key aspect of differentiation is this
27:49
ability to self-validate rather than seeking constant and approval from your partner.
27:53
And that starts to shift the relationship from being validation dependent to
27:58
being more autonomous, which is more emotionally mature.
28:02
And then he's very well known for differentiation in sex and intimacy.
28:07
So sexual differentiation, and that's the ability to maintain one's own sexual
28:11
identity in the relationship.
28:12
And it challenges partners to remain emotionally connected, but distinct in
28:16
their desires and preferences when it comes to sex and intimacy.
28:20
And he had this concept called four points of balance that I'm learning more
28:24
about that I think is just helpful as a marriage therapist, because he describes
28:28
these as maintaining a solid, flexible self, a quiet mind and a calm heart,
28:32
grounded responding, and then meaningful endurance.
28:35
And these are, they're essential for facing relational and then all kinds of anxiety head on.
28:41
What does that look like? Maintaining a solid, flexible self.
28:43
So an example might be a couple, then they have different interests and leisure activities.
28:47
The wife enjoys outdoor activities, the husband indoor activities,
28:50
and a solid, flexible self would be the wife deciding to occasionally join the
28:55
husband with his indoor activities,
28:57
maybe going to the theater and then vice versa without feeling like they are
29:00
betraying their own interests or caving or acquiescing in and or even worse,
29:06
feeling like now you owe me something.
29:08
So they both remain true to their own individual preferences, but they're flexible.
29:11
There's that psychological flexibility, flexible enough to occasionally participate
29:14
in each other's interests without resentment and without the,
29:17
it's not a, I'll only do this if you do this.
29:21
And then when you are now present and enjoying what your partner likes,
29:25
that is your opportunity to just be.
29:27
And you can admit that these, this might be something that you're not familiar
29:30
with because that is being vulnerable and differentiated.
29:34
He also talks about the quiet mind and a calm heart. So example here,
29:37
And let's just say that you have the husband coming home to find that his partner
29:41
has not done the dishes as promised.
29:43
So instead of reacting immediately with frustration, then he takes a moment
29:46
to calm down, ensuring that his mind is quiet and his heart is calm.
29:50
And that approach allows him to address the situation without anger,
29:54
discussing it in a way that is productive and free from emotional reactivity,
29:58
because if he is showing up emotionally reactive,
30:01
he's more than likely conveying this message that now I need my partner to manage my emotions.
30:07
They need to say the right thing to get me to calm down.
30:11
And then Schnarch also talks about grounded responding. So, let's say that when
30:15
one partner receives criticism from the other about being too involved in their
30:19
work, then they resist that impulse to retaliate or become defensive.
30:24
Instead, they stay grounded.
30:26
They take in the feedback and they respond thoughtfully by acknowledging their
30:29
partner's feelings and then discussing ways that maybe they can balance their
30:33
time better. and that grounded response, that will facilitate a constructive
30:37
conversation instead of an argument.
30:39
It will be uncomfortable until it won't. And then meaningful endurance.
30:43
So the example here might be a couple, they're going through a rough patch where
30:46
one of them loses a job and then that has put financial and emotional strain on the marriage.
30:50
But instead of running away from the issues through distractions like overworking
30:53
or excessive socializing or phones or porn or drugs or drinking or anything,
30:58
they endure the hardships meaningfully.
31:00
They openly communicate about their fears. It's okay. And they try to support
31:03
each other in finding solutions.
31:04
Maybe they both need a budget. And again, that's one that I've talked about
31:07
in the past where it is uncomfortable to sit down and talk about finances.
31:11
So we have to deal with discomfort in doing that.
31:14
But again, budgeting together, exploring new career opportunities for one.
31:18
So those kind of examples, I think they really show how each point of balance
31:23
will enhance the way that you manage yourself within the relationship,
31:27
which promotes a far more healthier your dynamic and which then will eventually
31:31
lead to much deeper intimacy.
31:34
And every one of those, those four points encourages a mature approach,
31:37
an emotionally mature approach to handling personal and interpersonal challenges.
31:41
And that is going to start to create this relationship where both people can
31:45
grow both individually and together.
31:49
Actually, he had a couple other things too. Holding on to oneself.
31:52
That's a concept that's pretty, pretty key in Snarsh's work.
31:55
And it's emphasizing the importance of being able to stand on your own two feet
31:58
emotionally within the relationship, even when it's difficult.
32:00
And then encountering the other.
32:02
Schnarch believes that true intimacy involves encountering the other person
32:05
as they are, which is only possible when both partners are sufficiently differentiated
32:10
to just not merely project their needs and their fears onto each other and saying,
32:14
hey, take this and now make me feel better about it.
32:17
So you look at those people together. Bowen, Schnarch, their theories offer
32:20
a full view of how differentiation can profoundly affect personal development,
32:26
relationship dynamics.
32:27
And what it does is it really highlights the balance between your individual
32:32
autonomy and this emotional connection.
32:34
Bowen Schnarch, their work eliminates, it's a whole path.
32:37
It's a whole series of tools that will guide you more toward mature,
32:42
stable, and fulfilling relationships.
32:45
Let's get into the deep end of the pool. It's so incredibly important for building
32:50
deeper, more genuine relationships. You know, we think or we believe or we just
32:55
simply are so often deeply enmeshed with our partners and with our kids.
33:00
You know, when I throw out this phrase that we move from codependent and enmeshed
33:03
to interdependent and differentiated, it means that we need to stop looking
33:06
at the relationship as two halves making one whole.
33:10
No, it's two whole beings who became enmeshed and codependent because they were
33:14
afraid that if they didn't ensnare this other human, that they would never find
33:17
another one who would love them.
33:19
But the relationship then becomes this vehicle for self-growth.
33:23
Now, the problem is that so many of us have never seen this model in our childhood.
33:27
And I'm not even talking about parents that are being evil and nefarious and manipulative.
33:31
And sure, there were plenty of those parents too. I talk with people daily who
33:35
have been through some pretty horrific things.
33:37
I'm even talking about the parents who absolutely didn't know what they didn't know.
33:40
I don't know if dad's plow broke or his mule gave up the ghost.
33:45
He might be angry because there's a decent chance that the crops will spoil
33:50
and they won't get harvested.
33:51
And then the family may literally not have food. And yes, I just riffed on that
33:55
part about the broken plow and crops and spoiling.
33:57
There's a slight chance that none of that is real or how it works.
34:00
I really don't know farm talk, but I think you get the point.
34:03
But for most of us, if we don't pull the snap peas from the planter box and
34:07
the window seal, we're not going to go without. We're not going to starve.
34:10
So I find that for many parents in particular, the anger coming home from the
34:14
office isn't even about what necessarily happened.
34:16
It might be more about dad not feeling like he's living up to his potential
34:20
because he thought his potential was going to be an astronaut with NASA because
34:24
the only time he got praise or validation when he was young was when he was
34:28
either emptying his parents'
34:30
ashtrays or when he was telling them that someday he'd fly to the moon and then
34:33
he'd buy his parents a house with all his money.
34:36
So then when he failed the sixth grade math test, it was not viewed as him needing a tutor.
34:40
It was viewed by that same parent who doesn't feel like he's living his best
34:44
life as the kid being lazy.
34:46
And for that emotionally immature parent, it becomes just one more thing that
34:50
is going wrong with his life. His kids don't try hard enough.
34:52
And so then as he's yelling for his wife to bring his food to him in his chair,
34:56
because he doesn't feel like getting up, no emotional consistency,
34:59
differentiation, being able to separate those feelings into this is a me problem.
35:03
I'm not where I thought I would be in my life because I don't know where I really
35:06
want to be in my life because I was never truly able to explore it.
35:10
So here this person might be in a job that they don't feel passionate about
35:13
with a spouse that they don't feel connected to.
35:15
And with a kid that actually knows more about math in sixth grade than he does,
35:19
which is really the reason why he isn't helping junior with his math homework,
35:22
because he's worried that he wouldn't even understand it.
35:24
And he most certainly didn't grow up with a parent who modeled phrases such
35:27
as, I don't know, or my bad, that one's on me.
35:30
Or, you know, your mom's really good at math. Have you asked her?
35:33
Or honestly, don't worry about the cost, son. Let's get you some help with your
35:36
math homework, because I honestly can't even believe how much you know at your age.
35:39
I definitely wasn't as smart as you are at your age, rather than,
35:43
I never had a problem with math when I was your age.
35:46
Interdependence, differentiation, ultimately requires us to be able to learn
35:50
how to be okay with ourselves,
35:52
alone with ourselves, and be able to calm our own central nervous systems and
35:55
to be able to take a pause and respond instead of react and respond to our spouses
35:59
and our kids with curiosity,
36:02
not negativity or blame or accusation, not diffusing our frustration or our
36:07
anxiety into the relationship,
36:08
but managing our anxiety so that we can then show up in the relationship as
36:13
a source of strength and emotional safety.
36:17
Because the more that we're okay in our own skin,
36:20
the easier it's going to be to break up that pattern or that whole cycle of
36:23
the constant buzz of anxiety or worrying about what this person might think
36:27
that if I say the wrong thing,
36:28
so I better say it the right way or so that he won't get upset or she won't
36:32
get upset or projecting onto others as a way to get rid ourselves of our uncomfortable feelings.
36:37
This is the long game. This is about raising your resting emotional baseline
36:42
so you live in this area of having emotionally immature tools lying around all around you.
36:47
And you not only know how to use them, you can access them at darn near any time.
36:52
Because sometimes people do know things logically, but they just can't get their
36:56
brains to buy into actually using the tool.
36:59
Or at least they might use the tool of apology, still only after they let somebody
37:03
know how angry what that person did and how that makes them feel.
37:07
And then they feel like I need to let that person know. And sure,
37:10
Sure, maybe they went a little far with their anger and still now they're sorry.
37:14
Meanwhile, the person they just unleashed their tirade on will need a minute
37:18
or a day or a week to even try and recover from or make sense of what this person
37:23
who claims to care about them just said to them.
37:25
This is the work that will break up those deeply rooted familial patterns.
37:31
There has to be a transformational figure, this agent of change.
37:35
And if you are listening right now, I am sorry. I'm actually not sorry. sorry, I nominate you.
37:41
Because if you are resonating with this episode and this content,
37:44
then A, you have amazingly wonderful taste in podcasts.
37:47
Or number two, you've obviously done a lot of your own self-work to get to this point.
37:51
You move from not knowing what you didn't know to know, but you're still not
37:55
entirely sure of how or always what to do.
37:58
And my friends, I believe a lot of that is that change still feels scary and
38:03
it takes courage and it takes acceptance that you're not going to be perfect,
38:06
which brings up feelings and about what we're talking about today.
38:09
We don't really like having all the feelings. Take our old friend anxiety.
38:13
What's fascinating there is that tackling anxiety is tough because believe it
38:16
or not, it really does have a purpose.
38:18
These patterns aren't random. They've been handed down, like we were saying
38:21
earlier, or what Bowen discovered through generations and deeply embedded in
38:25
our own social and familial frameworks.
38:28
And those are the frameworks that dictate how we navigate life until we have
38:32
to do some really hard things.
38:34
So this is actually about fighting our basic survival instincts to move toward
38:38
a richer, more emotionally fulfilling life.
38:41
And that is a journey that then, let's get dramatic here, requires bravery,
38:46
particularly when it means letting go of immediate comfort for the greater good.
38:50
And even more so, improving how we function as individuals and within groups hinges on courage,
38:59
moral courage, the kind it takes to do what is right, playing the long game
39:04
for the future, not just what feels right right now, because what's going to
39:07
feel right right now is alleviating discomfort, getting rid of my anxiety,
39:10
diffusing it into the family.
39:12
So now what are they going to do about it? It's about elevating ourselves and
39:16
our people and our communities and our tribes, our families.
39:19
So in this realm of personal relationships, the challenge is really in starting
39:23
to calm our own anxieties, temper our own anxieties, to foster real understanding,
39:28
real curiosity, real intimacy.
39:31
Can I manage my anxiety well enough to see and accept you for who you truly
39:35
are rather than basically who I need you to be to make me feel better?
39:40
Can I call my nerves to reveal my true self and then fully engage?
39:45
These steps feel scary because they are, because they're risky,
39:49
but they're also essential for emotional maturity, for building deep,
39:54
meaningful connections.
39:56
So if you really look at the complexities of relationships, because there are
39:59
a lot of variables in relationships, it's like the secret sauce of desire and
40:05
passion is differentiation.
40:08
Being uniquely and unapologetically you in the presence of another person.
40:15
Because when we try too hard to keep our partners content, or we always have
40:20
them in our comfort zone, we are avoiding genuine intimacy.
40:24
So instead of diving into the depths of real, raw, and honest connection,
40:28
the place where differences are acknowledged and even celebrated and,
40:34
We instead choose the familiar path of safety, avoiding any potential conflict.
40:39
Not a big guy. Actually, I'm not a big guy, period.
40:42
But I usually don't talk about song lyrics yet. I love song lyrics.
40:47
I've always been the person that enjoyed the meaning behind song,
40:50
and I want to talk about that to anybody that will listen.
40:53
There's an artist named Ben Folds, one of my favorite musicians.
40:56
He has a song from quite a while ago called You Don't Know Me that he originally
40:59
performed with Regina Spector.
41:01
And there are some powerful lyrics that I used to sing at the top of my lungs,
41:06
not very well, but never really listened to them until recently when I was contemplating
41:13
going to a Ben Folds concert.
41:15
But here are the lyrics.
41:18
You can tell I don't share a lot of lyrics. I'm not about to sing it.
41:22
But the lyrics. I want to ask you, do you ever sit and wonder?
41:26
It's so strange that we could be together for so long and never know,
41:30
never care what goes on in the other one's head.
41:33
Things I felt, but I've never said. You said things that I've never said.
41:37
So I'll say something that I should have said long ago. You don't know me. You don't know me at all.
41:42
And then it's a little deeper. Regina Spector jumps in and says,
41:45
you could have just propped me up on the table like a mannequin or a cardboard
41:48
stand up and paint me any face that you wanted me to be seen.
41:53
Then they say that we're damned by the existential moment where we saw the couple
41:57
in the coma and it was, this is actually the lyrics. It sounds like I'm being
42:03
grammatically incorrect.
42:03
It was, we were the cliche, but we carried on anyway. way.
42:07
And I think now in the lyrics, I think most of us have seen that couple in the coma year 10, 15, 20, 30.
42:14
They've settled into that routine, that coma-like routine where they are afraid
42:17
to have meaningful, deep conversations because they're uncomfortable.
42:22
And we still get drawn back into safety in our relationships where that safety
42:25
isn't always the healthiest way to act.
42:27
You know, we talk about surface things because they are the things that we have
42:30
the least chance of disagreeing on.
42:32
The relationship has started to go stale because now the things that could bring
42:36
us a real spark, a real passion, like different opinions, different takes on
42:40
new topics, or re-imagining views on older topics because now we're older and
42:45
we have more life experience.
42:47
Do we still avoid those because it might lead to conflict? And what do we do with conflict?
42:52
We have become experts at avoiding it, giving into it, diffusing our anxiety
42:56
around it back into the system to be managed by other people.
43:00
We find ourselves constantly going back to security versus truly living and
43:03
thriving, But being willing to be known and seen in a relationship is the way
43:07
to bring passion, to bring spark, to add life and excitement into the relationship.
43:11
But it comes with the risk that your partner may and probably will feel somewhat
43:16
threatened when you step out of your familiar role.
43:19
And that's okay. That is growth.
43:22
You know, the whole crux of the issue is finding a middle ground where both
43:25
partners can be true to themselves without tearing their relationship apart.
43:29
And that does become a bit of a dance. I'm not a good dancer,
43:31
but it can be done. It can be danced.
43:34
That dance is between being too rigid and not too yielding, where each step
43:39
is about balancing your personal authenticity with the needs within the relationship.
43:44
Time to wrap things up. I think, hopefully, you can see it's pretty clear that
43:48
understanding and applying these concepts of differentiation,
43:51
both Bowen's broader family systems approach and then Schnarch's focus on intimate
43:55
relationships and really what do we do with our discomfort can lead to far more
43:59
fulfilling and resilient connection.
44:01
And if we really embrace our individuality and still maintain emotional balance
44:05
in the relationship and we have the courage to have more open communication,
44:10
you are absolutely setting the stage for a healthier and a far more passionate relationship.
44:16
So as my good friend, Rachel Nielsen does at the end of her podcast called three
44:19
and 30 takeaways for moms, I'm going to give two solid takeaways from this episode.
44:23
So a couple of things that you can work on embracing individuality in the togetherness,
44:30
differentiation is not about distancing yourself from loved ones,
44:33
but about being able to express your true self without fear of losing your identity in the relationship.
44:39
Relationship and it encourages each person to
44:42
maintain your unique perspective and your
44:45
emotional integrity because you are the
44:48
only version of you that has ever been on the face of the earth so you have
44:51
your thoughts and feelings because you do that's your unique perspective and
44:55
it takes emotional integrity to be able to express that and then not get angry
45:00
or have to defend your viewpoint or break down that of others and that enhances
45:04
intimacy and mutual respect. How do you do that?
45:07
We've been talking about boundaries in the last couple months.
45:10
Set boundaries. Clarify your own limits and needs within the relationship.
45:14
Example, if a spouse decides that they need one evening a week to pursue their
45:20
hobby of painting, they communicate that need to their partner,
45:23
explaining that this time alone is essential for their personal fulfillment.
45:27
Cultivate interest. Engage in activities that reflect your personal interests,
45:31
which might not necessarily involve your partner.
45:33
You know this you can start to learn how to be okay being autonomous because
45:38
that's going to raise your emotional baseline and allow you to show up more
45:41
confident in the relationship.
45:43
So let's say somebody, a guy joins a cycling club to connect with his love for
45:48
biking and just develop some new friendships and his partner doesn't share that same love.
45:53
That activity allows him to bring new energy and experiences back to the relationship
45:58
and opportunities to connect and be curious, which then allows you to the next
46:03
concept, communicate openly about your differences.
46:05
Use differences as a strength instead of seeing them as divisive.
46:08
And these examples I was given, both people have different approaches to finances.
46:12
Instead of letting that create tension, we got to start holding regular discussions
46:16
to understand each other's perspective because you're going to have different
46:19
perspectives on something like finances because you most likely grew up in fairly
46:24
different homes and with different relationships around finances.
46:27
And then the second takeaway, balancing your emotional reactivity,
46:33
learning to self-soothe, learning to maintain a quiet mind and a calm heart,
46:37
especially during conflict.
46:38
That allows you to be more grounded in your responses, and that will help contribute
46:43
to far more constructive dialogue instead of destructive arguments.
46:47
And that balance is crucial. It is necessary for resolving disputes,
46:52
but also, more importantly, for building a foundation that can withstand future stresses.
46:57
And how do you implement that, this balancing your emotional reactivity? Good old mindfulness.
47:03
Regular mindfulness practice, meditation helps with the calm mind.
47:07
It helps reduce impulsivity and responses.
47:09
Develop emotional regulation skills. Learn to manage your emotions. Recognize triggers.
47:13
Implement calming strategies before a full meltdown or panic attack happens.
47:18
Journal. Go on walks. Do cold plunges. Eat right. Stay hydrated. All of those things.
47:25
And this one can be, I hesitate on this one at times, but based on where we've
47:30
gone today in this episode, you can seek constructive feedback.
47:33
I often have a bit of a challenge when couples are not differentiated and somebody
47:38
says, no, I really want you to tell me what I could do better.
47:40
And then it's, oh, here comes open season for some emotionally immature comments.
47:44
Constructive feedback, though, it comes when you can not react defensively.
47:49
So then you're curious. You would love feedback on how you might handle situations
47:53
better because your partner has a different viewpoint than you do.
47:56
Point out when maybe you notice I'm shutting down during arguments so that I
48:00
can start to become more aware and then I can actively work on staying engaged.
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But that is not going to feel safe if I say, no, really tell me.
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But then when you do, you're like, geez, okay. You didn't have to be mean about it though.
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Because if you can integrate those principles into the relationship,
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then you not only improve your own emotional health, but it deepens the connections
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that you share with your partner.
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And one of the cool concepts around that is when you get to that place of being
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differentiated, you can take that feedback and it doesn't even mean that you have to change.
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You want to change. You want to be the best version of you you can be.
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But at some point, you don't just have to acquiesce or give in to what somebody
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else's opinion of you is, but you're absolutely willing and open to take that in.
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So whether you're talking about romantic partnerships or family relationships
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or even professional relationships, this journey of differentiation,
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it is the key to a more authentic and far more satisfying interaction with those people around you.
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All right. If you have questions, thoughts, good examples, feel free to reach
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out, contact at tonyoverbay.com.
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I appreciate you joining me and then taking us out per usual,
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the wonderful, the talented Aurora Florence with her song. It's.
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Music.