Latest / The Virtual Couch / Shauna Roberts, LMFT on Anger, Therapy, and the "Tale of Pierre Santray!"

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Shauna Roberts, LMFT on Anger, Therapy, and the "Tale of Pierre Santray!" · The Virtual Couch

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Hey everybody, welcome to a very very special episode of the virtual couch. Just a couple of days ago
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I learned that a dear friend and colleague of mine Shauna Roberts suffered,
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an aneurysm swelling within the anterior communicating artery in the brain that has ruptured and this is from her daughter,
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Miraculously, she made it past emergency surgery where they amongst other things put in a coil stent to stop the bleeding and she's currently
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intubated where her body at the hospital where her body is sedated and her
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neurosurgeons her daughter said have told us that it's a miracle that she made it to surgery to begin with which we are counting is one of the many
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miracles from God and they are continually optimistic in her recovery based on some very small signs but she said we have a long road ahead of us we
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specifically are in a very fragile 10-day period where her care team is working to prevent further strokes and brain damage. At the time of writing this
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she hasn't woken up and we don't know when she will or what will happen when
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she does but her daughter said her family firmly believes that our Heavenly
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Father is in control and we're hopeful that when she does wake up that she will
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be on the road to recovery. She said my mom will need a lot of prayers and I
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asked that everybody who knows and loves her to please join us in doing so. So I.
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So I spent several years working with and alongside Shauna.
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We consulted on cases together. We worked on cases together.
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We joked a ton together.
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We shared a office wall together. We heard angry clients and we would come out.
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I still remember one of the times where I had a very audibly expressive couple in my
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office and I come out of there and she just popped her head out and said, so that, that sounded like fun.
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And I just, I laugh still when I think about that.
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But we did seminars together. We spoke at events together along with our other colleagues when I worked at Bridges
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Counseling Center, Shelly and Jamie.
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Shauna's hilarious and always full of energy. And when I think of her, I do, I smile, I laugh.
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And I had Shauna on the virtual couch twice, so early on this episode today that I'm recording
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is episode number 379, and I had Shauna on episodes 11 to talk about anger and answer
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some questions, as well as episode 17, where we talked about boundaries.
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And we traded messages from time to time over the last few years after I ventured out on
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my own, and that we needed to get together and record again, and we just never did.
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And so I truly hope and I pray that I'll have the opportunity to record with you again,
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Shauna. when I heard the news.
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I went and downloaded both episodes. So then today I want to share with you the episode where we talk about anger, but we,
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also answer a lot of questions and I was reminded not only of what a quick wit she is because
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you were going to hear that and I just loved our back and forth, our chemistry, but she
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is an extremely good clinician and you'll hear that as well.
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At the time of this recording of this bonus episode, I'm not aware of a particular site
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or any kind of fund that's keeping people aware of any updates, but if one becomes available
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Then I will add it to my link tree link in the show notes of this episode as well as anywhere on my social
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media links And if you if you enjoy this episode, and if you want to pass along a message to Shauna and and her family,
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Please do please send it to contact at Tony over Bay comm and I will be sure to send it to her.
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Okay, so Shauna there are many thousands of listeners that are thousands. I mean when we've recorded episode 11
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I was looking at the download numbers and and it did make it to I don't know four or five six thousand,
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downloads which back in that day was insane. I think when we first were recording together I was happy to have a few hundred people listen and I guarantee
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you that the day this one hits you're gonna have you know close to 10,000 people that are gonna be sending you some extra prayers and love and karma
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and healing all of it as they listen so I know that you'll feel it my friend and
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and I just want you to know that that I do I see you so let's get to this this episode and I hope that you will absolutely enjoy,
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Shauna and I talking about anger, as well as just answering a lot of different questions
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of everything from why go to therapy and just relating some pretty funny stories.
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So let's get to that episode right now.
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Last week, when I decided to record an episode answering your questions,
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I was set to record at the end of my day after seeing clients.
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And specifically, I had received a couple of questions about anger, where anger comes from
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and what to do with anger.
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And I really love talking about that.
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I've facilitated anger groups on anger management and I work with a lot of clients who really struggle
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with trying to control their anger.
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And a colleague and friend, therapist Shana Roberts walked by in my office
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and we were briefly bouncing ideas off of each other
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on how to handle a particular issue that we often see when working with couples.
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And I asked Shana how late she was working and she was done right when I was planning on recording.
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So I asked her if she could sit in with me and answer some of these questions.
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And I'm so glad that she did because I felt like it was more of a discussion
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for some of these answers on both of our experiences with the questions that were asked.
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And I just feel like it was so much more powerful.
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So I think I'm gonna look at maybe grabbing another therapist anytime I do these Q&As.
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And of course, it led to a couple of good stories as well as one that I honestly didn't know
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if I was ever gonna admit.
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And I will just set the stage by telling you, I will talk about, or I will tell a story,
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the tale of Pierre Cintre.
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And again, my thanks to Shana for taking the time to answer your questions.
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I think you're gonna enjoy it.
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So now on to the Q&A and the curious tale of Pierre Cintre.
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Music.
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You look like you've had a tough session. Your eyes are red. Yes, very red.
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The smoke is killing me. Are you sure it's the smoke or was it something sad?
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Did somebody talk about a puppy or something like that? Yes, I got very into my last session.
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Okay, I'm here with Shauna Roberts. Shauna is a colleague of mine.
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She is a licensed marriage and family therapist and we practice together.
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That sounded a little bit odd. We play catch, right?
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I do, Tony. Practice together, right? But we are in the same building, office,
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work at Bridges Counseling Center in Roseville, California. So, I brought Shauna on because I
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thought it'd be kind of fun. I've been talking about and I'm so grateful for all the questions
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that I get submitted. So, I have some great ones and I thought it would be fun. I'm going to have
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Shauna on a little later to talk about a specific therapy-related topic, right?
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Shauna Yes. Jared But so, today I thought she would be able to weigh in on some of the questions that we have, but I was kind of making a joke. Shauna has some
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red eyes. She looks like she's been crying. Shauna Yeah, but it's not. It's due to all of
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the residual smoke from the horrible fires. Okay, because you moved up the hill, right?
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I did, so you didn't even ask me about that earlier. No.
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We actually had two fires, the McCourtney fire and the Lobos fire right up by us,
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which were a little bit too close for comfort. Okay.
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I stayed home a couple days, husband stayed home a couple days, just keep an eye on everything,
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but they got those under control very quickly, unlike our friends in the valley,
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wine country, who lost, I mean, how many thousands of acres?
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And you have people you know that are affected by that. family members who were displaced by that. Very scary. I'm horrible.
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Um, so were you, where you're up there is the smell of smoke thick? I mean, is that a,
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you know, it's interesting because we're up higher, not necessarily if we have a fire up
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there, then yes. But where it became really bad is I would come down the hill, come down
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80 towards Roseville and you could just see it hanging in the air. Wow. Just so thick.
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And so my eyes are just killing me. It's better today, but that past couple of days have been
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terrible. Okay. Well, I am grateful for you sticking around. I'm here. I'm ready to do
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this. Okay, so I want to jump in. First of all, do you have any specialties that you want to talk
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about? What do you want? I mean, what is your passion? What do you like the most about therapy?
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What are your ideal clients? Tony, that's a loaded question. You know me. I'm eclectic. I kind of
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work with everything. But recently in the past year, I have really developed this intense desire
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to work with a couple specific populations. One, people who are living with problem gambling. So,
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Gambling addiction. Yeah, I am one of the you know, few contracted,
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Therapists through the state of California which pays for clients to have free therapy if they meet the criteria. It's a wonderful program.
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And then of course my other passion which is very similar to the population. You work with is betrayal trauma and sex addiction. I
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whereas you tend to work more specifically with sex addiction, I have a a true passion for working with.
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Spouses, partners of those who are affected by SA. That, okay, that's what we're going to need to circle back around and talk about, right?
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Because that's going to be, there's so much, yeah, there's a lot of focus on the person who is the addict,
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but not a lot on the spouse, right?
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We're getting there. We're getting there. We're bringing that kind of out of the shadows.
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Thank you, Patrick Karnes, into the light, and we're looking more at betrayal trauma.
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And that's its whole thing in and of itself. And I'm, you know, very excited about working with that population.
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Okay, so we'll get there. And Sean and I worked on cases together. It's kind of nice.
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Sometimes I get to work with the guy, Shana works with the woman.
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Or vice versa, we've done it reverse. It's kind of, it's fun.
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Good. Okay, so first question, and this was got, kind of had me thinking about,
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I wanted to do a whole episode on questions. Here's the question, are you ready?
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What do I do to stop being so angry?
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And they even put an exclamation part, so I think they were angry when they said this question.
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Although it wasn't in all caps, they weren't yelling it. Well thankfully, because we get that, right?
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Yeah, so. Why don't you take that and I'm gonna come up behind you.
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Okay, sounds good. This was the one I kind of prepared for, I'm not gonna lie.
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So I went to a study. I heard, first of all, let me ask you,
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I feel like even a decade ago or more, in almost any therapy office,
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or we used to work at a clinic together,
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a non-profit together, and there would be punching bags in a lot of the offices,
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the Bozo the Clown ones.
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Bozo the Clown ones, or the referee guy.
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Oh yeah. Do you remember the referee guy? He had a name, and I don't remember his name, but.
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Had to be alliteration Ron the Ref, I don't know. Something, it was.
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Was it? something like that, okay.
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So the theory there was, man, when you're angry, go punch the punching bag.
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And I remember even being in grad school in here, and sometimes I just had people scream into a pillow,
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or hit a pillow, or whatever it is, right?
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So the theory there being that when you get angry, you just gotta let off some steam.
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Right, you're gonna drain that negative energy. Yeah, so then you will be super happy,
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and peaceful, and all that kind of stuff.
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Okay, so that now we know is not true.
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So, I looked up this study that I thought was pretty cool. It said back in 1999, people were presented with some sort of frustrating situation.
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For the sake of time, we'll just say, hey, it left them really angry.
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So, they were angry.
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Everybody in this study was angry. So, soon afterwards, some of the people were given an opportunity to punch a punching bag,
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whether it's Bows of the Clown, Referee Ron, we don't even know, for two minutes.
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And that's a lot of punching. That's a lot of punching. It is kind of funny, right?
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When you think about it, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're there. You've got the punching bag.
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Two minutes though, if you really think about what that would entail, that is a long time.
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I have to tell you, I will not go too far on this tangent, but when I was in college,
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we had fraternity fight night.
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I was a freshman and so I was like, you know what?
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I've never been in a fight in my entire life. I'm in good shape.
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So I'm doing it. And so I trained a little bit and then it was super hard training and exhausting and
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I got into spar one time and about 30 seconds in, I was just wiped out.
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So kind of backed out. So yeah, two minutes of punching. That's a long time.
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Two minutes, others, okay, so some people, one group did two minutes of punching,
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others did nothing at all.
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So then a short time later, I think this is funny, everybody played a game against a fictional opponent
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and over the course of the game, participants had a chance to punish their opponent
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with blasts of noise. Okay, I love this. I know, these studies are always great, right?
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I would just be pushing the button just because I'm not person.
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I don't know, I have a little bit of test bias there. So the loudness of the noise and the length of the noise
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have been used as measures of aggression. So they're trying to see then what happens with,
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you know, how aggressive people are, whether they punch the punching bag or whether they did nothing at all.
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So, the belief is, and there's this thing called catharsis, which is what you were talking about.
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If you drain every bit of anger out of your body, then you reach a state of catharsis
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and you're happy and chill and all those things.
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So, the belief in catharsis would be that people would be less aggressive
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if they had a chance to punch the punching bag
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after getting angry than if they did to sit and do nothing at all. Instead.
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Probably see where this one's going. I did. The opposite result was obtained.
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So, the people who punched the punching bag were actually more aggressive than the people who did nothing.
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Interesting. Yeah, right? And I remember, boy, I've thought about this a lot.
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And anytime I see a punching bag around still or I hear, you know, now I know that this has become just pop psychology lore, right?
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Yeah, totally. Yeah.
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So, here's what, punching a punching bag makes a connection for people between anger and aggression.
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So, it reinforces the link between being angry and then acting in an aggressive manner, which makes sense, right?
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It totally makes sense. So, these connections between emotional states and behavior are, I mean, that kind of then just
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over time reinforced. Then as we get angry, then it's just going to say, it's going to trigger us
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to get even more angry. Yeah. Which just kind of, so the results of course say that it's better to
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be able to sit. And I know we both like to talk about mindfulness and meditation. And so, even
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just to be able to remove yourself, breathe, get focused, present, right? That kind of does it.
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Well, and one of the things about anger that I try to work with my clients on is,
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is, you know, anger is there for a reason. You know, when you think about it, anger is
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our protection against the more tender emotions that we don't necessarily want to deal with or feel.
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Right? So, it's an opportunity for introspection. What is anger masking? What is anger keeping
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me from looking at, talking about, dealing with? And I have had some of the most powerful
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sessions when I will allow that anger to come up in session and then just ask the person
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to sit there with it.
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What's going on, what's underneath it. Where are you feeling it?
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What's coming up? Tell me what you're thinking.
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There's a lot of techniques, down arrow technique we can use.
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But I find that that is the quicker way to move somebody through their anger
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and get to some answers. That's cool.
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What that just made me think about too is that how much do you feel like things like man brain come into play?
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How much is it that, because you're saying we kind of got to get them vulnerable.
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So what's the risk when somebody's gonna be vulnerable? Especially guys.
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Yeah, they don't wanna go there. They don't, why?
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Well, who wants to? Yeah, it's not macho, rub a little dirt in it,
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Lone Ranger, John Wayne, all that.
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Why am I gonna do that? You know, you can ask, take a random sampling of men
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and ask them legitimately how many times they cried in their lifetimes.
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You will get those guys who can say, I can count on one hand, from the time I was a kid.
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It was Old Yeller, Air Bud, Hoosiers.
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Hoosiers, Rudy. Rudy? Okay, there's four times right there, right?
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And maybe, maybe if they have kids when the kid made the entrance into the world. And that's a maybe.
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That's a maybe, okay? Okay, I wanna get to these other questions too,
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but I have to tell you, so what just came to mind too, I went to a training once and they were kinda talking about
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when you get that whole fight or flight thing, anger, adrenaline going through your body,
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the guy who was doing the training said, okay, here's these things that the best way to eliminate it is to.
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Get to the top of a giant mountain with a completely open 360-degree view.
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So, kind of not here in the area, right? And the thought behind that is, of course,
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that at that point now, you can recognize there are no threats or fear or whatever,
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so you can calm down.
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But then number two, which I thought was funny, because I don't know, this is embarrassing for me to admit,
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but then he was like, what I do often is, if I've got a client who's pretty angry in the room
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or in a couple setting, I'll say, hey, can you just run out to the waiting room?
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I want you to grab the Time magazine and we just turn to page 15.
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And I think I'm taking notes and I'm like, oh, what's on page 15?
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I'm like, he's got some time, that's got something great on 15.
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Right, he circled it. Yeah, no, no, it doesn't matter what's on.
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Distraction. Yeah, yeah, distraction, right?
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Yeah, and I think again, and you're right, you brought up the gender thing,
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and I think you have to understand the person you're with and working with therapeutically.
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But I honestly believe anger should not be feared.
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Anger is something we try to turn off or shove down, but it's an opportunity to learn something about yourself.
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Right? But you have to be willing to kind of go there, right?
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You have to be willing to understand what's my anger about. You can't, right?
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Yeah, no, that's perfect. Okay, so and then another fun fact on that training that I learned.
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So he kind of said that once you're, all that stuff's gone, the chemicals,
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the fight or flight, adrenaline's in your body.
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You said it can take between 30 and 45 minutes for it to leave your system?
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It does. So I thought that was interesting, because a lot of times we'll get all fired up And then it's like.
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Still it's like, oh, I still feel angry or what's wrong with me. And that's normal.
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John and Julie Gottman, I think have done a beautiful job. If you're familiar with John
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and Julie, right? Eons of work with this, and they call it being flooded, right? So
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when they're working with couples and somebody gets agitated, they'll actually have them wear
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pulse locks, right? You know, the little thing on your finger that measures your pulse and takes
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all your vitals. And as it starts to ping, that's telling you you're above a five on the Richter
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So you're flooded and your central nervous system is on fire.
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And they always said it takes 30 to 45 minutes to return back to baseline.
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So that's something to keep in mind. You know, if you're fired up, that's not the time to have a conversation.
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That's not the time to problem solve.
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Get yourself back to baseline. Okay.
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I dig it. Okay. So are you ready for just random questions? Let's do it.
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Bring it on. I think there's one that I would love to start.
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I'll ask you because I think you will like this one. What should I do if my therapist upsets me?
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I love that.
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That is such a great question. So before I answer that, have you had that happen to you? Oh, sure. Yeah.
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Yeah. I think, yeah. Well, okay.
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But I actually love that someone will let me know that because the worst part is every
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now and again, you get somebody that'll come back a couple of weeks later and say, Hey,
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I was angry at you. And it's like, man, if they wouldn't have told me that, you know? Yeah.
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So, okay. So, same thing. in our careers, we probably would have avoided that. I've been fearful of that, right? Now,
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I welcome it. Okay. Yeah. It's an opportunity again, for growth, because in that moment,
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honestly, unless I've done something really egregious, right? It's about them. Something's
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being triggered, something's being activated, and it's an opportunity to go deeper. Yeah. Right. So,
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I love it when I can read on my client that I've stepped on a landmine, and they're upset,
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and they're going to project that back on me. So, it's an opportunity to say, what's going on right now.
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I had a client and I love this one. So, she, I think I did drop a tiny bit into cliche mode,
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kind of in response to something that she put out there. And I was so grateful that she said.
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I could tell something was wrong. And I, you know, I did a good old, Hey, what's going on?
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I can tell your, your whole demeanor change, what's going on there. And she just said,
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I kind of feel like you just dismissed me. And I feel like anytime I really put something out
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out there through my whole life, I just get dismissed. Oh, see?
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Yeah, right? Right there, yeah.
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But I think, bottom line, to answer that question specifically.
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Never ever be afraid to tell your therapist. Hey, I'm upset what you said upset me. I didn't like that,
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You're the consumer here. Speak up advocate for yourself if that's hard for you if you have problems with confrontation,
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Send them an email. Yeah, sure jot them a little thing and you have to know that.
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We as therapists we that goes along with the territory. We're okay with that. We welcome that. Yeah, I always say I would do
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I always say you I want you to tell me I want you to tell me ask me questions on why I even asked the
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question I did. Or where am I going with that? Or why do I feel even qualified to
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talk about the thing that I'm talking about? And I do know that I think in old-school therapy though, the therapist is supposed to bounce those
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right back. Why is that important to you? But I mean I do person-centered,
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client-centered, whatever you want to call it. So that's okay. I like that.
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Yeah, every once in a while with specific populations though, personality disorder
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spectrum, then I do become the mirror. And I'm gonna put that right back because and I know therapeutically, clinically, it has whatever's happening for
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them isn't about me in that moment.
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Okay. So I think again it comes back to you kind of have to know your population, right?
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You know who's sitting across from you, but to the client themselves, never ever be afraid
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to bring up that you're upset or something was said ever.
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Yeah, because if you do have a therapist that says, I can't believe you asked that question,
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you're done. You're done. That's it.
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Absolutely. Ask for a refund. Yeah, exactly.
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Of good that is when you're talking about when you were a new therapist you
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remember is it almost funny to look back on what your skill set was at that time
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oh my gosh I look back at some of the things that I did you're scrambling you
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know I can remember sitting there in front of a client going
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I don't know. I'm going to help you with that. And then going home to my supervisor, you know,
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emailing them or pulling up every book that you have. And it's a tough road. You can only learn
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so much in school. Right? And then you get thrown into the fire and that's where all your education,
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comes. I have to. So I always think about this. I used to do, I went from this, Oh my gosh,
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I don't know what to say. Yeah. To then what would a real therapist say right now? Right.
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I love it. Yeah. And then I, and then it was like having that confidence to then I'm going to,
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I'm going to say what the real therapist would say. And then finally becoming the real therapist.
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What a great journey right there. I love that. I think that's so true. And I think we all had
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that moment where we felt like, not that we're the be all and end all, not like that, but that
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we've arrived. We've honed our craft. We're confident in the things that we say and no
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longer do you run home at night. I've got to find the answer to that question in some book.
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Now we just know. So are there, do you, anything coming? And maybe I'll tell you, I'm setting you up for,
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I'm curious, have you ever had those things where you do get a little bit offended?
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I mean, you can't say that out in the session, but do you ever kind of go, wow, okay, that
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one stung a little bit?
21:30
Oh, for sure. Anything come to mind? We all do. Yeah. Oh my gosh.
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Can I tell you one that I get often?
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Do you? So I do a lot of work with- Oh, this is the same one I'll get.
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Okay. Well, I do a lot of work with like single adults.
21:40
So people who have been divorced and they're kind of getting back out there, right?
21:41
So I, and I love working with that population because you're going to, I do a lot of this
21:44
work with, okay, let's identify what is it that you want in a, in a companion now?
21:48
You know, it's kind of the good old, the list.
21:50
And I've got those examples where somebody will say all these things that are important
21:53
and then they run out to the cell phone store and there's a hot guy there and he's checking them out You know, like...
21:57
Okay, I know he doesn't have all of those things, but that's, I feel it, right?
22:01
I feel it. Yeah, but so I love what I'm working with and I can't tell you, I am not a tall man.
22:06
Have you ever noticed this, Shauna? No. Haven't you? It's so shocking that you're saying that.
22:09
Yeah, yeah. So I maybe, if I'm, I don't know, shoes on, it's a good 5'8".
22:13
That's a stretch. But I've sat with a couple of times where women have been,
22:17
okay, so, you know, I really want him to be this or this, whatever.
22:19
And you know what? He's got to be tall. I mean, he's got to be at least 5'10".
22:22
I don't need some little midget, you know, or short, tiny, whatever.
22:26
And I'm just like, I'm right here, right? And then best is when I get the double,
22:30
where then it's like, and he's gotta have hair.
22:32
Oh my gosh, you know, I'm so tired of, you know, the guys with no hair.
22:36
And I'm thinking, you're talking to a 5'8 bald man, right?
22:40
Are you aware of that in any way? But they're not, you know, they're all in their own place.
22:44
So I never do the whole, oh, how dare you? So okay, what comes to mind for you?
22:48
You know, I think I have always been a working mom.
22:51
I have never not worked, right? I'm just passionate about it,
22:55
and I understand there's a big debate.
22:57
I've always been a better mom when I do work to my kids.
23:01
But I can't tell you how many times that's come up. Well, you wouldn't understand that
23:04
because, well, you're a queer woman or whatever. And so many times, and it's not meant maliciously,
23:10
but they truly feel like you're never gonna understand what I go through as a stay-at-home mom.
23:17
But that's opened up great conversation. We've really been able to go deep into,
23:22
well, what does that mean? Why is that surfacing?
23:25
I think we all get offended at times. Absolutely, right? So I do have, there's one other one with the height
23:30
that I don't think I've ever talked about either.
23:32
So I once had a client, he was about 6'10", and he had a gorgeous head of hair too.
23:36
I mean, just not fair at all, right?
23:38
So it was when we used to work at the non-profit and I'm walking back and there's a pretty lengthy hallway,
23:43
right? So I'm building a little bit of rapport and I just say,
23:45
hey, so man, what's the worst thing about being 6'10"?
23:49
And he doesn't say anything. We're walking back, we sit in my office
23:53
and I kind of say how, he probably didn't hear me,
23:54
but I just made this joke about what's the worst thing about being 6'10".
23:57
And he's like, no, no, I was trying to think about it.
23:59
Nothing really. And then he's like, oh, I guess, you know, airplane seats.
24:03
It's like, okay. All right, thank you. Sure. That made me feel a whole lot better.
24:06
Absolutely, yeah. And I was like, and you know what? I can stick my legs straight out on an airplane.
24:10
That's right, I can. That's right, okay. All right, ready for another one?
24:12
All right, let's go. Okay. Oh, okay, I like, I want, okay. Why therapy?
24:16
Can't I just talk to my friends and get the same advice? That is a question that I have gotten.
24:23
Oh, so many times, not for my clients, but for people in my social circle, right?
24:28
Why would I pay for therapy? You know, I could just go talk to my friend.
24:32
So, look, let's get logical about it.
24:36
Of course you can go to your friends and family to vent, right, and that's what it is.
24:41
You're venting, you're sharing your frustrations.
24:44
Most of the time, you're going to get their take on that, that the answer is going to be based on their own thoughts,
24:51
feelings, values, they're going to give you an opinion, right?
24:56
Therapy has nothing to do.
24:58
With an opinion. Now, every once in a while, we will weigh in with a clinical opinion.
25:02
Yeah. No, I like this. Right? But that's not our job. We are not there to offer up our opinion about or offer advice.
25:11
That's, yes. No advice. So, that's something to keep in mind. If you're in a therapy session and you feel like
25:19
your therapist is giving you advice, again, I'd say you need to shop for a different therapist.
25:24
Okay. We've never talked about this and that is exactly what I would have said, too. And I even
25:28
I even think that there's a couple of therapists that I know that I feel like they are good
25:31
at telling people what they need to do. You know?
25:34
So I had in, when I was in grad school, my sensei, Darlene Davis,
25:38
who I'm gonna have on the podcast soon.
25:40
Do you know Darlene? Super wonderful. Yeah. Isn't that Shelly's? Old sensei?
25:44
I don't know. Good question. Darlene Davis. Anyway, I know Darlene's name.
25:47
Never mind. So she did this thing that I thought, and I'm not huge on the experiential stuff
25:51
where it's like we're gonna get up and we're gonna whatever, do something in the room.
25:54
Well, no, Virginia Satir, you're not gonna family of skull?
25:56
No, I'm kind of tough with that, but here's one she did that I loved.
25:59
She just said, so a lot of people think, and this goes back to the people that say,
26:02
why can't I talk to my friends, that if they go to therapy, it's like.
26:05
If they're sitting on one side of the wall, one side of the room, and then the therapist is on the other
26:09
and the therapist is just like, hey, all right, come here, go left, go right,
26:12
watch out for that, duck under that, and you're here.
26:14
I know, right? And she said, nope, and then she did the thing where she walks over and she gets beside the person
26:19
and then she just says, okay, where are we trying to get to?
26:21
And the guy's like, over there. She's like, okay, what's in front of us?
26:23
It's this desk. And it's like, well, what do you think about desks? I don't know. I was attacked
26:28
in a desk factory as a child, so this is tough for me, you know? Right? How cool is that?
26:32
Tony, this is so interesting because one of the things, I never heard another therapist say that
26:38
because my kind of schtick a lot to clients, especially when there's trauma or we're going
26:44
through something real difficult, I'll say, you know, I'm here to walk beside you. That's my job.
26:50
I am not here to remove the blocks for you. I'm not here to steer you around the bumps in the road.
26:58
We're gonna walk it together.
27:00
Tell me what this brings up for you. We're gonna explore every nook and cranny together,
27:05
but it's your journey.
27:06
I'm just here to facilitate and walk beside you. So I love that she says that.
27:10
I'm gonna have to steal that because that's brilliant. Yeah, you gotta give me credit and Darlene credit.
27:13
Darlene, you're amazing. Tony, you know what I think.
27:16
Sure, I almost feel like this is the moment where we drop the mic and we leave.
27:19
I mean, that was kind of like deep, right? Yeah. OK, you said Satir, right? Love Virginia Satir.
27:25
I probably studied about her for my licensing exam.
27:29
But I'm drawing a blank. But here, can I tell you what that brought up for me?
27:32
Okay. And this is a story that I wanted to get to at some point. I will try to make it somewhat quick.
27:36
So, when I, so I did my practicum work at the Child Abuse Prevention Council of California.
27:42
Got it. So, and they sent me to a ton of trainings and a ton of, so I was doing work with kids. Right.
27:48
And I think I've talked on other podcasts. That wasn't my sweet spot, you know,
27:50
and there are people that love it and are passionate about it and I'm so grateful for that. Good training.
27:54
Yeah, it is great training. And so, but I went to all these different trainings and
27:57
And they used to talk a lot about Santre, right?
28:00
So I realize I'm not paying a whole lot of attention when they're talking about that.
28:05
So I work up this narrative where it's like, okay, I bet it's, it sounds French.
28:09
So it's gotta be this guy, I'm guessing maybe like Pierre Santre.
28:12
And what does he do? And what's his model? And I'm like, man, I gotta look this up, right?
28:16
So then finally, I think- Are you kidding me right now? No, I know, right?
28:22
And so I even, I think I even have it written on here somewhere, Pierre Santre.
28:25
I've been dying to talk. this the tale of Pierre Cintre. So what I learned, Shauna, was there is no Pierre Cintre, nor is
28:32
Is there a Jean-Michel Cintre? Nope. Or a Jean-Luc Cintre?
28:37
Nope. Word is sand.
28:39
And what do we know about sand tray now, Tony? So now we know that that's where we get to play with toys in the sand tray.
28:46
And then the therapist gets to interpret that when the guy puts the army man by the tiger.
28:50
That he has some like childhood trauma.
28:53
You got it.
28:53
Right. Beautiful. Yeah. So can we put to rest Mr. Pierre Sand Tray? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
29:01
Wow. That's a good one, Tony.
29:04
Thank you. Wow. So we're going to pretend that you actually didn't ever study Virginia Satir.
29:07
We're going to just gloss. And I want to edit that out because, you know,
29:10
she's kind of like, you know, one of the masters. It's a big deal.
29:13
Big deal, big deal. And honestly, family sculpting, you know.
29:16
Oh yeah, sculptures, clay, I get it, the whole thing. So the other thing that I'm thinking,
29:20
I have to tell you this, okay, so you know how when you're in school too,
29:22
you're supposed to go get your own therapy?
29:24
Oh yeah, oh gosh. So I was trying to at first be lazy about it,
29:27
so I wanted to find somebody around my house.
29:28
And so I forget what directory I went into, plugged in my zip code,
29:31
and somebody was just a couple miles away, and it turns out that they were working out of their home.
29:35
So I go there, and I'm like gonna take the tour, which is fine, and so I just kind of had
29:40
this whole sand tray thing.
29:42
Fresh in your mind. Yeah, right, and I knew now, a sand tray.
29:45
So they're showing me, they're walking me back and they kind of show me one room,
29:48
and then there's this cat that kind of runs out of the room and there's a litter box there.
29:53
So I, oh, I laughed at myself so hard, I'm like, oh, combo sand tray and litter box. It's perfect. Right?
30:01
For the therapist that works out of their home. Right, and so every now and again,
30:04
you got a kid in there and he's like, hey, what's this rock?
30:06
You know, or whatever.
30:07
She's like, oh, let me get that. Right, yeah, so. No, no, don't put that in your mouth.
30:11
Oh my gosh, it's one of your favorites.
30:12
Yeah, maybe I'm gonna wanna edit that part. Yeah, it's kinda funny though.
30:15
I think it's better. How long, we wanna take another one? Yeah, let's do another one.
30:17
Let's do one more, this is fun. So we just did, can't, okay,
30:20
talk to my friends, get the same advice. Okay, there's one.
30:24
Oh, here we go, this is good. What if there are topics I don't wanna talk about
30:27
or I'm not ready to share?
30:29
Okay, this is also a very important one. I think first and foremost.
30:34
Your therapist is not there to interrogate you, right? You know, I think there's this fear
30:39
that people are going to sit on that couch and they're going to be held captive by this person
30:43
who's going to dig and dig and dig. Not at all. You know, we're there to meet the client where
30:49
they're at, wherever that is, right? And our job is to pick up on either those conscious or
30:54
unconscious processes, clues, things that are coming up and get the client to explore them.
30:59
We are not there to push our agenda. Yeah. Right. At all. Yeah. And I will say I am sure that there
31:04
are some therapists out there that do that. And that is a really quick way to lose a client.
31:10
It is. And I will I'd love that. And I will say I do now kind of in that first session where you're
31:14
talking about confidentiality and all that kind of good stuff. I do try to throw a little something
31:19
in there that I know that this isn't natural, I guess, to come in and talk to a strikingly handsome,
31:25
tall, bald guy, right? And unload all of your problems. I know that's not maybe natural.
31:30
But the sooner that you can be open and vulnerable, the better because I think maybe
31:35
we've all had therapists or we've had these situations where you're six, seven, eight
31:38
sessions in and somebody's saying, Hey, by the way, did I tell you that I'm a serial killer?
31:42
You're like, Oh, that would have been nice to know early on.
31:45
Right at the beginning. Exactly. Yeah. You know, and I've got stories that I don't for the sake of confidentiality,
31:50
but I mean, I just, I had a couple of session a little while ago where there was a pretty big
31:53
big reveal with about 15 minutes left that would have changed the entire session.
31:58
And I don't say, are you kidding me? Why didn't you let that?
32:02
Because I know some people aren't quite ready, right? They aren't.
32:05
And it's so funny. This exactly happened to me today. My second client, I think, you know you're dancing around an issue.
32:15
You know there's something there and you don't want to push too hard because you want it to kind of come out.
32:22
And to me, it's a sign that we're doing really good work when a client will say to you,
32:27
you know, there's this thing that I've not wanted to share or talk about, but I'm feeling so safe now,
32:32
or I feel like this is, you and I are exploring together in a really safe way, and now I'm gonna tell you the thing.
32:39
Right? Yeah, you do have to earn that. You do have to earn that at times too,
32:42
because even we talked about, Sean and I are a part of a pretty cool training
32:45
going on right now, and today, some of the stuff that we talked about,
32:48
shout out to Dr. Kevin Skinner, right?
32:49
Very great. So one of the things he talked about was even that part of, if somebody has not had anybody
32:54
that they can trust, that's gonna be hard for them to walk right in and then again,
32:58
trust a strikingly handsome bald man, right? Absolutely, right?
33:02
Because that's gonna work.
33:04
Well, so let's, on that, I think we can't end this unless we also then maybe talk about counter-transference
33:10
just a little bit, right?
33:11
Because I think oftentimes a therapist will get triggered by something that the client is talking about.
33:21
Because it was their own experience.
33:24
I mean, we can come up with a dozen different examples for that.
33:27
So I think it's important that the client pay attention to they feel like.
33:33
The therapist is starting to steer them, right, in a particular direction of trying to pigeonhole
33:39
them into this is how you feel.
33:41
I think, yeah, good examples like if a, let's say a therapist, you know, had grown up and there was
33:46
alcohol abuse or something like that in their family and then you've got a client in here who's
33:49
they're kind of minimizing it or that's not what they're here to talk about and they maybe say,
33:54
just in passing, yeah, sure, we get drunk, we fight, but you know, and the therapist might say,
33:58
well, where are the kids? Well, they're in the rooms. They aren't hearing anything, right? Well.
34:01
Well, if that therapist had a situation where growing up, they remember these drunken arguments and stuff,
34:06
all of a sudden, they're like, no, no, no, we need to keep talking about this.
34:10
We're gonna talk about that, right?
34:12
And then you can, I think, I've heard many stories where the therapist can get a little bit pushy with,
34:19
we are going to, you're avoiding talking about this, right? Yeah, you don't understand, right?
34:22
This is important, yeah.
34:23
So I think the concept of counter-transference is something that isn't gonna happen all the time,
34:28
and a really good therapist is gonna manage that.
34:30
They're gonna seek supervision. If they get triggered in a session,
34:33
they're gonna talk about it. I think I've talked to you about times.
34:36
All of the therapists here have talked about times where countertransference has come up.
34:41
It's normal, but if you are feeling that as a client, don't be afraid to say,
34:46
I kind of feel like you're making this about you.
34:49
Or I feel like you're taking this in a direction that I'm not comfortable with.
34:53
Yeah, saying I don't necessarily feel like this is.
34:57
Right, this isn't what I'm here to talk about. or that's not my experience at all, you know?
35:01
So I think that's an important thing to bring up to people.
35:04
Yeah, that's good. You mentioned, this is where I'm going on my train of thought,
35:08
but at one point a few minutes ago, you said something about coming in and sitting on the couch.
35:11
Do you have anybody lay down?
35:13
Gosh, I have people who lay down all the time. Do you really?
35:16
Well, you have pillows. I'm holding one right now, they're comfortable.
35:19
I will have people kind of curl up, and they'll hold on to that.
35:22
Then there's people who just want to stretch out, lay on their back, throw their feet up,
35:26
but that's why we have the couch, you know, whatever.
35:28
I just love, though, that there's that stereotype. So, I mean, I love when I get somebody,
35:31
a rookie into therapy, and sometimes they will say, do I lay down?
35:34
Do I lay down? Oh, I get it all the time. Am I supposed to lay down?
35:37
No, no, no, do whatever. And then when they get comfortable,
35:39
and they come in, and I even have a blanket, You know, if people, if it's cold or whatever,
35:44
they throw the blanket on, get comfy.
35:46
To me, that says, you know what, we're doing our job. We've created that safe space,
35:51
we've created that nice environment for the client to come in and feel, let their guard down,
35:56
where they can lay down.
35:57
That's a very vulnerable position. Yeah, it kind of is.
35:59
I had a client once who would just stare up at the ceiling
36:03
and talk, and that was, it was great. But so there was once where I thought,
36:07
man, I've kind of got a headache, and I've got a little, I've got ibuprofen in my bag.
36:11
So I thought, I wonder if I can kind of sneak one of these things out, you know?
36:14
And so. Did you do it successfully? Maybe.
36:17
Just kind of stuck my hand over slowly to see, you know, if the guy was gonna look over. Yeah.
36:22
Yeah, and I got it. Yeah, he never even knew. Well, and I think the other thing to remember too is,
36:27
well, we've all had our own individual therapy. It's part of our training.
36:30
And I know what that's like to sit across from someone who's kind of staring at you intently,
36:34
even though it's with compassion and empathy.
36:36
It's a little uncomfortable. And so I think for some people,
36:39
laying down where they don't have to look right at you. No, that's true.
36:42
It kind of feels good. Yeah. That made me think of, I have to give a shout out
36:45
to Sean Davis, who was my sensei. He's a good guy. Dr. Davis, amazing.
36:50
And he told of a situation once where he was dealing with a teen boy.
36:54
Teen boy was obviously very uncomfortable about coming to therapy.
36:57
And the kid wanted to lay down on the couch, kick their feet up.
37:01
And so there was another couch in the room.
37:03
And Sean just mimicked that. Just mimicked it. Kind of met the kid where he was at.
37:08
Tossed his feet up too, kind of put his hands up above his head,
37:12
and they just kind of talked, and I thought, that's a great therapist.
37:15
And you can do that. Okay, so of course now I'm gonna sound like, oh yeah?
37:18
Well let me. Well let me one up you. Right, exactly, but I love that.
37:21
I mean, it's funny, I'm wearing slip-on shoes today because I have a client today that we take our shoes off,
37:25
and that's just kind of what we do.
37:26
And then I love, with teens in particular, with the curvature of that couch and this chair,
37:31
where sometimes I do say, all right, We're just gonna slide back and we're just gonna look up
37:35
and whatever it is to make them feel comfortable.
37:37
Yeah. You've gotta do whatever you need to do as a therapist within boundaries.
37:42
Sure, yeah, yeah. Okay, well I just thought about that too. Have you ever seen my snack cabinet?
37:46
I have seen, Tony, I have broken into your snack cabinet. How dare you?
37:51
I'm just gonna own it. No, I'm honored.
37:52
You know what? We all know who has the good stuff around here.
37:54
It is full right now. I know it is. It is full, yeah. It kind of freaks me out
37:58
because I'm like, Tony has chocolate.
37:59
Oh, I went Halloween candy shopping is what I did, but I've already eaten the whole thing of Reese's
38:02
and Kit Kats. Oh good, well then I'm safe, so fine, whatever.
38:05
I'll probably get some more tomorrow.
38:06
Okay, do you wanna do one more? Let's do one more, let's end it strong.
38:10
Okay, all right, this is a good one.
38:11
Okay, will my therapist judge me?
38:14
Oh, such another great question. Don't you think that's a common misconception
38:20
that your therapist is, whether they're silently, overtly or covertly going to pass judgment on you?
38:25
I think that is so true, but again, right?
38:28
If your therapist is judging you, you probably need a new therapist.
38:34
Our job is not to pass judgment, and here's the thing I tell all my clients.
38:39
There is nothing 10 years into this that you could tell me that I haven't heard or seen.
38:44
Okay, I say the same thing all the time, right? All the time, and it's kind of sad, right?
38:48
Because we've become a little jaded. We have heard things that I think most people
38:52
can't even wrap their brain around.
38:54
Yeah, oh, some of the stuff we were talking about in our training today.
38:56
Totally. But we won't go there. You're right. And so I do tell people, far be it for me
39:03
to pass judgment on you.
39:04
That's not my job, right? My job is to walk beside you and we're gonna figure all of this out.
39:10
So I say this cheesy thing where I say, I want, if I had a device that I had right here beside me
39:15
and it was my holy crap-o-meter, and so when they, oh, spit tape, right?
39:19
Oh, that'd be good. So I'm saying this thing, I don't think you can even get it to go to one.
39:26
So whatever you're gonna tell me right now, I wanna know and it's data and that's what I need
39:30
to work with and all those sort of things, right?
39:32
Yeah, but again, I really honor, again, the client, you can come in and tell you some
39:37
of the most horrific, scary things that have happened to them, right?
39:43
Embarrassing to some, right?
39:45
Traumatizing.
39:46
And I think it takes a lot and again, you talked about our early...
39:52
Days of our career I can remember thinking as someone was telling me the most awful story that I ever heard in my life
39:59
Right. Yeah, I kept thinking is my face. Okay. Am I not, you know, am I not? Oh, right
40:04
You know, am I showing horror? Am I yeah You're keeping that nice flat kind of affect or am I projecting the right amount of empathy and now of course
40:13
It just comes now to us. But right I mean in the beginning didn't you think a I'm gonna start crying
40:19
B, my jaw is going to drop and my eyes are going to bug out.
40:24
You're going to say, oh my gosh, I can't believe that happened to you.
40:27
Yeah, exactly. It's tough. It's tough.
40:30
You made me remember, do you remember your very first client ever?
40:33
I can remember my very first client. Okay, you want to go first?
40:37
No, you go. Okay, so mine was, I was working at this place, non-profit.
40:40
I wasn't getting paid.
40:41
I'm a brand new therapist. I get this, and of course I want to protect it.
40:44
I mean, it's been over a decade, but I'll give it in generalities.
40:47
It was a single dad and the wife was not around because of some things that she had done.
40:54
And he's got, I think, three teenagers at the time. And he's just talking about all the stuff
40:59
they're doing with it's like just crazy, horrible activities. And he's basically saying, what do I
41:04
do? And I'm thinking, Oh, I don't even know. I don't know. But the funny part was at one point,
41:09
he's like, he said something like, and we they're stealing cable, you know, and I remember I kind
41:14
you know, they were like splicing it from a neighbor or whatever. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And
41:17
I remember going off on this little thought thing where I'm like, huh, so if they get caught doing
41:20
that, is that a bad thing? Or is that in your brain? Yeah. And I'm like, wait, come back.
41:25
Okay, I'm back. Right? No, I, we all do our time. Most of us in the trenches right out of grad
41:31
school, right? You get kind of really thrown into some, some tough places. I too worked at
41:36
a couple nonprofits and I would say a very tough population to work with. So my first client out
41:42
out of the gate was a doozy.
41:43
I mean, it was trauma and, again, just kind of this.
41:47
Unfolding of this horrific story. And I'm sitting here thinking.
41:52
Help. Where's my supervisor? Oh, yeah. Watching. Yeah, yeah. I need help.
41:59
Yeah. But then but then something clicks, because I think all of us who are in this profession, who have done this profession
42:05
for as long as we have, there's something in us that clicks.
42:10
Yep. Or it's an art form. I don't know. It's what we're supposed to be doing.
42:14
And that empathy and that compassion kind of just comes to the surface
42:18
and we learn to be right there with the client in the moment.
42:21
Okay, I was going to say that's the thing that I think that was when it clicked for me was when it wasn't.
42:25
I mean, you know, we're all human, but it was when when I'm in a session,
42:27
they feel like they're 10 minutes, not 50 minutes.
42:29
You're locked in, you're present, you're not thinking about what's for lunch or what, you know,
42:33
and because I, you know, I think shortly after my first client where that was an experience.
42:37
I remember at one point having a guy tell me some things and I was kind of stuck on what do I say about this?
42:43
And I didn't stay with him, and then he throws out a, I don't know, do you think that's a good thing?
42:47
And I just blurt out, yeah, and he's like, seriously? And I had to quickly go, well, I don't know, go hang on.
42:53
Tell him, yeah, right, let's go over that again. Like, yeah, right, and I'm going, oh, you know what, I can't, yeah.
42:58
No, but that is, it's scary, and again, I like that you said we are all human,
43:01
and there's gonna be times when we have problems staying with the client, but most of the time,
43:06
this far into the game now, that's where we are really proficient.
43:10
Yeah, I think so. We're able to really stay there. there, right? Even if your stomach's growling a little bit or you're thinking about, what am I
43:16
going to do when I get home? We still have that ability to be right there. I don't think it's
43:21
been years since I've had that experience where I'm like, what did they just say? Because you're
43:25
thinking, what am I going to say next? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, that kind of leaves. Okay,
43:29
So I will tell you when you just had a rumbling stomach.
43:34
So I do think I used to always think about it would be fun to do this like kids book called The Gassy Therapist. The Gassy Therapist.
43:40
Right? Because every now and again, you know. We're human. Yeah, and that's a rough time, right?
43:44
Do not eat tacos before your afternoon friends. Fair point. If you look in my thing there, I've got some dried fruit.
43:50
Oh! Okay. Never eat more than four dried prunes. Ever.
43:55
Nope. Because then you're going to make a quick exit. Yeah.
43:57
I mean, here it is, folks. Real confessions of real therapists. Yeah.
44:00
So I recorded one a couple of weeks ago on this race I ran, this 100K,
44:05
and one of the things that I didn't talk about after that I thought was funny to me was,
44:09
so here's one that is fun.
44:10
So when I run one of these super long races, anything over 50 miles or whatever,
44:14
I'll lose a lot of weight in fluid during the race.
44:17
Like this last one, I lost nine pounds, right, on the race. So then when you're done with the race,
44:21
you're gonna hydrate like a champ, and then your body's gonna say,
44:24
hey, this idiot might go do that again.
44:26
Let's hang on to everything he gives us for the next couple of days.
44:28
So then I actually ended up gaining that nine plus an additional eight.
44:32
So there was like this 17 pound swing, right?
44:34
So then I come into therapy on Monday and I'm fine. I'm like, I'm good.
44:38
I'm sore, but I'm good.
44:39
Well, this is like to a T. By Tuesday, then the body goes, all right, we're good.
44:43
He's not gonna do it again.
44:45
Let's pee every 10 minutes. So imagine that in sessions, right?
44:49
You're like tapping your toe. Cause I am not, have you ever like- I've excused myself.
44:53
Super embarrassing. I am so sorry. I'm gonna have to go.
44:58
Yeah, that's not epic. Or I've had colleagues who have gotten sick,
45:02
thrown up in the middle of a session. You know, they're a hardcore man.
45:05
They're gonna stay in the pit, and then they're like,
45:07
and you're gonna have to excuse me. That's pretty funny.
45:10
Again, we are human, right? Yes, exactly.
45:13
All right, Sean Roberts, what a pleasure. It was fun, right?
45:15
It was so fun. Thank you for having me on. Okay, so yeah, so we're gonna have you on
45:18
to talk about maybe the trauma piece, or trail trauma, or something like that.
45:21
You want to maybe do a little bit of trail trauma? Yeah, so do that.
45:23
Or any other population. You know me, I'm kind of eclectic.
45:25
When I first thought of the idea of the podcast,
45:28
I mean, Shauna does a lot with personality disorders and especially there's a big one
45:32
called borderline personality disorder where I think therapists,
45:35
when we're talking amongst each other, it's like, man, you never wanna have
45:37
more than one borderline.
45:39
And I mean, what's the most you've ever juggled at one time?
45:43
Eight, nine, yeah, it's a lot. And I don't do that anymore.
45:47
I mean, I've learned, but there's a lot of misinformation about borderline out there
45:52
and I would love to come in and maybe even do Q&A about borderline personality
45:56
or just talk about it in general terms. Oh, that's good. Okay, so we'll do that.
45:59
So thanks for coming in.
46:00
Absolutely, thank you. And we will talk again soon. Sounds great.
46:03
And I will see you next time on Awesome.
46:06
Music.