Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E117: 3 Surprising Hacks for Relational Success w/ Dr. John Delony

Transcript

E117: 3 Surprising Hacks for Relational Success w/ Dr. John Delony · The Lila Rose Show

0:00
How do we build community where we're at?
0:01
Because I've heard a lot of people say I felt the most
0:04
connected in high school or college and I've never found
0:07
that sense. You know why?
0:08
There's a reason 40 year old guys still get together and talk
0:10
about the big game. They still talk about that
0:12
because that was the last time they were part of something
0:14
bigger than themselves. Literally, our bodies are so
0:16
desperate to belong. The greatest hedge is not a
0:19
year's worth of food, and the greatest hedge isn't a whole
0:21
bunch of. Weapons.
0:22
The greatest hedge against when when it all goes down is have a
0:25
great relationship with your neighbors.
0:26
And we've just taken that from our society, just plucked it out
0:29
and we made everything transaction and that we are
0:31
dying of loneliness and it's, it's heartbreaking.
0:37
Hey guys, welcome back to the Lila Rose podcast.
0:40
Today we're talking with Doctor John Deloney, best selling
0:43
author and Ramsey personality. You've probably seen his videos
0:45
on YouTube where he is asked the toughest questions about
0:48
relationships, family life, work, all kinds of things,
0:51
parenting. And he gives some really great
0:54
practical advice. We're going to deep dive
0:55
communities, how to find meaning and relationships, dating, how
0:59
to find a spouse, how to divorce proof your marriage and much
1:02
more. I hope you enjoyed this
1:03
conversation, Doctor Deloney. Thanks for joining the show.
1:06
You bet. Thanks.
1:06
Good to see you in the in the flesh here.
1:08
That's great. Good to talk to you in person.
1:09
So Deloney like baloney, but you say call me John.
1:12
You're a doctor, though. What kind of doctor are you?
1:15
Let's start there. I have one PhD in education.
1:18
I have another one in counseling.
1:19
OK. And so you, I've watched you
1:21
grow over the last, I think couple years, but it's been more
1:24
than that. And you've really taken over
1:26
YouTube. I feel like with advice, in a
1:28
good way, it's been a. Weird couple of years, that's
1:30
for sure. I'm like a introverted.
1:32
Nerd. And so, yeah, it's been a very
1:33
weird little world. Well, a lot of I, it's always
1:36
popping up like what do you do if this crazy thing happens or
1:40
how do I parent my kids? I mean, all of this stuff,
1:42
there's tons of people asking you tons of questions and you're
1:46
you do a great job just dishing it.
1:48
Like really good, down to earth, practical stuff.
1:51
That's what I've. I think has been the greatest.
1:54
I've got an awesome crew that runs with me but has been.
1:58
There's a lot of people talking about neurochemicals that that's
2:02
awesome. Like what?
2:03
Like you know all the complexities of everything and
2:05
that's fine, but it doesn't help like that single.
2:08
Mom with two kids, you're just trying to have a like, how do I
2:10
find peace in my house? Or the truck driver just wants
2:12
to be a better dad. Like there's, there's nobody
2:15
talking to those folks. And so that's, that's, that's
2:18
been the adventure of the last three or four years is like,
2:20
let's make things as simple as possible and give somebody
2:22
something you can go do in your house, right, to make your life
2:25
a little bit better. That's good.
2:26
And it I think it also is the part of the value is yes, people
2:29
coming to you with their problems, Other people have
2:31
similar problems. Listen to the episode, but also
2:33
you're just listening to the content and you know someone who
2:37
was in that person's shoes who's calling into your.
2:39
Show. Or your child.
2:41
Your have concerns about your child and so maybe it's not
2:43
directly applicable to your own life, but it's your friend
2:45
you're advising. Right.
2:46
So it just. Provides this more context for
2:49
how to think about these problems that so many people are
2:51
struggling with. Yeah, the the thing that like
2:55
the first six months, like arrogantly I thought, oh, people
2:58
are buying it. Like the the way the show took.
3:00
Off I I was like, 'cause I'm so smart, right, 'cause I'm, I'm so
3:04
smart. You're a doctor.
3:06
Yeah, yeah. That wasn't why people were come
3:08
tuning in. They're tuning in because
3:10
they've never seen their friend cheated on their husband and
3:15
they've never seen anybody have the interaction with compassion.
3:18
They didn't know what that looks like or they've never heard
3:20
somebody say hate my kids, somebody hurt my kid.
3:22
And what, how do you do that? Right?
3:25
And so they're actually, I think the show's done well because
3:27
people watch the interaction and it gives them a tool kit for.
3:31
How do I tell my? Husband, I'm not, I'm not doing
3:33
right. I'm not doing OK.
3:34
Or how do I tell my wife that I'm struggling with attraction?
3:38
Like, what do you do? And it's usually not the word so
3:42
much as how you just sit with somebody and make someone go,
3:46
I'm safe here. So that's really interesting
3:48
what you're saying 'cause you're saying it's not just the actual
3:50
advice you're giving, like text the.
3:53
Advice. Yeah.
3:53
It's the fact that you're willing to listen and not just
3:57
jump down their throat in terms of judgment, but you still make
4:01
judgments that this is right, this is wrong, but it's how you
4:04
engage them to help them come to the right conclusion.
4:07
Yeah, and there's two and I, I the cool part about my academic
4:12
journey was going back to school after I had a bunch of wisdom.
4:14
A lot of students would get their bachelors to get their
4:16
masks, get their PhD, and they sat in a lot of classes.
4:19
But man, until you've held a mom whose kids passed away, until
4:23
you sat in this room or that room or that room, you don't
4:27
have that wisdom, right? And there's just a different
4:29
weight to those rooms. And so going back to school
4:31
after all those experiences was helpful.
4:34
And there's been two paths that is happening in the mental
4:37
health profession, which I'm happy about.
4:39
There's a lot I'm not happy about.
4:40
But the two I am happy is one is I had one professor and I'll
4:44
never forget she said this. She said, stop asking people why
4:48
they're drinking. That's not a helpful question.
4:50
Start asking them what in the world is happening in your life
4:53
that this is the best way your body's figured out how to get to
4:56
a day. And that's such a a more
4:58
compassionate question. And it helps you both get to an
5:00
answer. And then the other side is, you
5:04
know, for 150 years they've told therapist to be neutral.
5:09
And now people are starting to realize like that's cruel
5:12
sometimes. Sometimes you look at somebody
5:14
and say, stop, you have to stop doing XY or Z, right?
5:16
You're hurting people or you got to quit, you got to change.
5:20
And so it's both. And which is which is pretty
5:22
cool. I can sit compassionately and be
5:24
curious and say you. Got to stop cheating or you got
5:27
to stop stealing. You got to stop drinking or your
5:29
life's not going to get any better and I like that.
5:32
What I've seen you do is you get really curious about the why,
5:35
like you just said, behind the behavior and the ACT and the
5:39
choices, because that's the only way to redirect in the great
5:43
direction. Because whatever desire is that
5:45
they have, that they're sculpting, right, or the need
5:48
that they have that's not met or the trauma they have, they're
5:50
not dealing with, that's ultimately responsible.
5:53
I mean, you can't say they're totally powerless to those
5:56
things, right? I don't want to say it's fully
5:57
responsible, but that's a big factor.
6:00
And bad behavior in. General.
6:02
You, you go to jail for these two or three numbing mechanisms,
6:07
you get outcasted for these two or three numbing mechanisms.
6:10
But if your addiction happens to be work, we just give you
6:12
$1,000,000. Or if your addiction happens to
6:15
be XY and Z, we reward you for it.
6:18
And so it's getting beneath that and saying, oh, you're just as
6:21
you're struggling just as much as this person is, even though
6:23
we're all patting you on the back and we're lecturing you.
6:26
It's all the same pathology. Everybody's hurting, right?
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What do you think are the biggest?
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What do you think are the biggest kind of societally
7:26
accepted, you know, the society is actually accepting or even
7:29
encouraging what is ultimately You mentioned workaholism, what
7:33
is ultimately often because someone's really unhealthy.
7:37
What would be some of those things today that you've seen or
7:40
I think you get patted on the back for being?
7:42
Unhealthy yeah, I think you get patted on the back for being the
7:47
hustle culture, right work and I think you get patted on the back
7:50
for accomplishment culture. How many certificates or awards
7:54
or and academicians are the worst, right?
7:58
How many certificate certificates can you have on
8:00
your wall? Also, there's a the new the new
8:05
currency that just popped up is feelings or they call the victim
8:09
Olympics, right? Like how many hurts do you have
8:11
and how many how many labels do you have?
8:14
And how much trauma have you been through?
8:16
Right, and I'm going to lead trauma first 'cause that, I'm
8:20
told, is the most important part of my life.
8:22
That's the most important part of my story, so I'm gonna lead
8:25
with. My diagnosis, I'm gonna lead
8:27
with some of these things that. Are absolutely a part of your
8:30
story, but that's not all. Who?
8:31
You are right. And so it's everything is
8:34
leaning or as one guy says, we're entering every room but.
8:39
1st right we're. Entering a room with all the
8:42
things that are wrong with. Us, as that's our new social
8:45
currency. How tired we are.
8:48
Like if I say like, Hey, how was your weekend?
8:49
You're like, it was great with my kids.
8:50
Everything was wonderful. I'll be like, she's kind of
8:53
weird. But if I say, how is it going?
8:55
You're like, well, I'm so stressed.
8:57
I'm I'm so exhausted. I got my third kid and that's
9:01
like, that's just the, that's the social courage.
9:03
Complain about it's especially the kids stuff 'cause I just had
9:06
a baby. I shared this earlier.
9:08
We've got a six week old at home and or here.
9:11
She's not far from here. But it's crazy that so many
9:14
people have such a negative. They expect me to be negative
9:18
about being a mom. Like, oh, you have three, you're
9:21
done, right? Like I've heard that multiple
9:23
times walking around the supermarket with my kid.
9:24
Like, I want a nice family. 03 is a lot.
9:26
You've got a lot. You're done, right?
9:29
Like is that you're, you've got your girl, you know, like,
9:31
'cause we have two boys and like, how did we get like, it's
9:35
like almost like it is the Olympics for feeling bad about
9:37
ourselves as mothers, I guess. Like I should feel so bad about
9:40
myself that I'm a mother. Or I'm.
9:42
Struggling so much. We're so nervous to offend each
9:47
other. And if I say like, wow #3
9:50
congratulations. And you happen to have a some
9:53
negativity around it while I'm really struggling or my
9:55
husband's abusive or fill in the blank, it's somehow my fault for
10:00
seeing joy and beauty in your life, right?
10:02
And pointing out the sunshine. So as a culture, we just point
10:05
out the darkness. That's all we do is focus on how
10:07
bad. Everything is.
10:08
And as, as, as one researcher says, what you go looking for in
10:13
the world, that's what you're going to find.
10:15
And so that's the glasses we all wear.
10:16
What's What's the worst thing that could be happening?
10:18
Right now you have a new baby. You must be tired, must be off.
10:21
Yes, I'm exhausted. Getting any sleep?
10:22
No, I have a six months like like it's.
10:25
But it's. Awesome.
10:26
Yeah, I'm awake multiple times a night, but I'm so grateful.
10:30
Right. You have joy, people.
10:31
People go their whole lives longing for a child.
10:34
I have three of them. Right, right.
10:35
You know, it's all about, like you said, the perspective.
10:37
I mean the way we see our own lives and.
10:40
We can we conflate joy and happiness, right?
10:43
Like no, the the 6th week, the 4th time awake getting pooed on,
10:49
but nobody's happy. But there's there's a you know,
10:53
this is right, There's a joy there, right?
10:55
And what a blessing that we can do. 3:00 We, we got to have
10:58
three right? And we may have four, may have
11:00
5I. Hope so.
11:01
What a blessing, right? And being able to sit in all of
11:06
it. And we don't like to do that.
11:08
It's, it's interesting what you're saying 'cause it makes me
11:11
think about the messiness, of course, like you mentioned,
11:14
being up at night, changing diapers with kids, the messiness
11:16
of just life when you're open to life, yes, right.
11:20
Like the chaos of life, when you're open to new
11:22
opportunities, new experiences, new human beings that are not
11:25
predictable, that have their own schedule, their own needs,
11:29
they're not always on your time. Like children are very much.
11:32
They never are, right? But what is life about?
11:35
At the end of the day? It's about love.
11:37
And love has risks. You take a risk with love.
11:40
Every time, yeah. And and you just got a new
11:42
marriage. Yeah.
11:43
You've never been married in five with three kids.
11:45
Five years in, yeah, that's true.
11:46
Oh yeah, I see. Your saying, but like I like
11:47
that you've never been married with three kids and so now
11:49
you'll get to reinvent it. And when I, when my wife was
11:53
pregnant with her first, but I kept waiting, waiting to get my
11:56
wife back until I realized, oh, that part of our life where we
12:00
can just do whatever we want, whatever we want, it's over.
12:02
And now we get to build something amazing and new.
12:05
And I think the more we lean into this, the the more
12:09
opportunities we have to have. An awesome whatever comes next.
12:12
The more I want, I just remember when, remember when, and I'm
12:16
just choosing to be miserable in the present.
12:18
And it's just a weird way to live, you know?
12:20
Yeah, I feel like so many people are shocked when we even have
12:23
three kids, even though that's only, I mean, I'm one of eight
12:25
kids. So I'm like, we're we're in like
12:27
the minor leagues right now. We are just getting started.
12:30
My husband's one of eight kids. And even that mentality about
12:33
kids, like how could you, how could you do more than one or
12:36
two or even 3 is like maxing it out.
12:39
And I think that is connected to what you're saying earlier about
12:43
just our societal focus on achievement or on just kind of
12:48
kind of go in their own route, whatever feels good for us and
12:51
easy for us. I mean, how do we, I guess, how
12:54
do you encourage someone to want that life that is more risky,
13:00
chaotic in terms of like inviting in other human beings,
13:03
whether it's children or just being open to love, being open
13:06
to living in community with each other.
13:09
It gets messy. You know, marriage is like this
13:11
ultimate community gets messy. It's complicated and it's just
13:14
easier for some people. Just kind of go it alone or keep
13:17
it neat and tidy. Yeah, that's a great question
13:20
because I think neat and tidy is an illusion because you can have
13:23
it as neat and tidy as you want, but one day you're going to get
13:25
the call it mom's got cancer, that call's coming, right?
13:28
Or one day you're getting the call that dad just had an an
13:31
accident, that call's going to come.
13:33
And so the question is, what is the world?
13:36
Going to look like when those calls come.
13:38
There will be the day your boss. Calls you in and says I'm sorry,
13:41
but we're cutting your division. That call will.
13:43
Come in your lifetime or I've got some very clear, very clear
13:49
pictures of being a new professional.
13:52
And back when the state of the Union meant something and every
13:58
channel 'cause there was no Netflix or anything, every
14:00
channel just had the president like coming to say I've got to
14:03
say something to the American people.
14:05
And I remember Bush coming and saying we're about to have a
14:08
recession. It's about to be bad.
14:09
I I remember not fully understanding what a
14:11
mortgage-backed security was, but I remember.
14:12
Thinking, I remember my body being like, oh, this is not
14:15
good, right? I remember some of the war
14:18
declarations. I remember some of those moments
14:21
throughout my childhood. And so I think we we create
14:26
these illusions that we can not love and not risk and not take
14:31
on that scary stuff or have to deal with our childhoods that
14:34
maybe weren't so pleasant and we're worried about reproducing
14:37
those things in the future. And we just think we can avoid
14:40
it all. And the question I always want
14:42
to ask is. No, those calls are coming.
14:45
What's my life going to look like when the next big thing
14:47
hits? Do I want to be surrounded by
14:49
people that I love and care about and that are relying on
14:51
me? Or do I want to be by myself?
14:54
And I've always like, exhaled and been like, I can't do this
14:59
by myself, right? Let's go at it with a gang.
15:01
And right, right or wrong, right.
15:04
You have a lot more to lose in those situations.
15:05
But man, you've got so much richness.
15:08
So my husband was actually talking to me about this, I
15:10
think, this morning about game theory and how there's this
15:14
interesting research on game theory and how it might be able
15:18
to be applied to the decisions we make as human beings, right?
15:21
But this idea where people who are most successful in game
15:25
theory are those that band together in small communities
15:28
and they have boundaries with each other, but they ultimately
15:30
choose to trust each other and do it together, Then they're the
15:33
most successful more than the person who kind of one UPS the
15:35
other person, right? It's like one person gets to
15:37
choose. Do we each get 50% or one person
15:39
in, you know, winner takes all and they kind of betray the
15:41
other person, you know, Hunger Games style.
15:44
But it always works better long term when people band together
15:48
in the small community, right? And have the boundaries with
15:51
each other, but do it together. It's best for everyone.
15:54
I love that. But we don't, I feel like that's
15:57
that's sort of lost in a lot of American Society.
15:59
Like even physically we don't live.
16:01
We're like live online now. Yeah, it's not real.
16:04
There's AI, think she's out of University of Houston and her
16:08
name's escaping me. But basically, she studies when
16:11
cultures implode, when they fall in on themselves.
16:13
And she laid out a path and and it was pretty remarkable.
16:18
The gosh, I wish I could think of her name.
16:21
I'm sorry, but here's what she says.
16:23
The greatest hedge is not a year's worth of food, and the
16:27
greatest hedge isn't a whole bunch of weapons.
16:29
The greatest hedge against when when it all goes down.
16:31
Whatever it is. Is to have a great relationship
16:34
with your neighbors. You all all know each other.
16:37
You all can call each other. You know your neighbors.
16:40
And we just have a culture that doesn't have that, doesn't have
16:43
it. It's gone.
16:44
It is gone, doesn't exist. Everything's a transaction.
16:47
And I actually tried to get to the bottom of that a couple
16:49
years ago. Like where did that start?
16:51
And I don't think it started in a bad place.
16:53
I think it started with. The worst thing to do is to ask
16:56
your friend to drop. You off at the airport?
16:58
It's just the worst. And meaning like it's so mean to
17:01
your. Friend, Yeah, we, yeah, we give
17:02
you a ride to the airport like, oh Jesus, I'll.
17:03
Pay for I'll pay for your whatever.
17:05
Right. Well, now you can use Uber.
17:06
You pay. For their Uber.
17:08
And instead of getting eggs next door I just instacarted they
17:11
just bring it to my house. And so these you don't wanna.
17:13
Put out anyone? Like you don't wanna.
17:14
Be a burden I don't. Wanna be a burden and instead of
17:17
the other part of the psychology which is the greatest gift you
17:19
can give somebody is a chance to allow them to help in your life.
17:23
Yeah. What a gift, right?
17:25
And we've just taken that from our society, just plucked it
17:28
out, and we made everything a transaction.
17:30
And that we are dying. Of loneliness.
17:32
And it's, it's heartbreaking. OK.
17:33
So would the advice that follows then be like, obviously, meet
17:37
your neighbors if you're an apartment complex, meet your
17:39
neighbors still knock on the door, ask for a stick of butter,
17:42
I mean. Yeah, yeah.
17:44
Or bring a plate of cookies 1st and then like a week later ask
17:47
for. Oh, I think, I think it is.
17:48
I'm gonna go. I always tell people go 1st.
17:50
And by the way, it's not. Just go first in asking or
17:52
giving both. OK both.
17:54
That makes sense. Yeah, go first.
17:55
That's great. And it doesn't have to be an
17:58
apartment. I live on 6 acres out in the
18:00
woods outside of Nashville. And what's your address, John?
18:03
Yeah, my neighbor is is 7576 and he's been there for. 1000 years
18:09
right the family land and my. Driveway washed out when it
18:15
rains really hard. I've got a long quarter mile
18:16
gravel driveway. And it washed clearly out.
18:18
And then one morning I see him out there on his tractor and he
18:22
graded the whole thing for me and went home.
18:23
Well, I I know how much that cost to hire somebody.
18:26
'Cause it's expensive. And I put some cash in an
18:29
envelope and give it to my son. And I said, run over there and
18:31
give this to our neighbor. He did.
18:33
And then a few weeks later, I was driving out and he was
18:36
piddling by the street and he stopped my car and caught him
18:39
forcefully said don't ever give me money again.
18:43
And I was like, no, I'm not going to.
18:44
I'm not going to let you work on my property.
18:46
I'm going to pay you. And he said I'm your neighbor.
18:49
And I, I was kind of like, OK, well, he it washed out again.
18:53
A few months later, he did it again.
18:55
And this time, my wife. 'S got these like massive
18:58
gardens and so she. Put together a basket and it had
19:03
a bunch of eggs in it from her chickens and she had made some
19:05
sourdough bread. She treats her sourdough better
19:07
than. Better than me sometimes.
19:08
It's amazing. It's a basket.
19:09
It's pretty red. But we took this basket over and
19:14
he started crying this old, I mean old mid 70s, like he was
19:19
out working on his weeds. And he came over and gave me a
19:21
big sweaty hug. And I realized, oh, that's what
19:23
that's a neighbor, right? It's not, I'm not going to pay
19:26
you. It's not.
19:26
We're both doing this thing together.
19:28
And you had some extra awesome. I had some extra awesome.
19:31
And it was just a different way to do it.
19:33
And there was a I'm glad that my young son was with me 'cause he
19:36
got to experience his old man getting schooled by two
19:40
generations before me. And it was good for everybody.
19:43
It was pretty neat. But.
19:44
But again, we've lost that. And so I think kind of like 200
19:48
years ago, we had to travel a long way to get food.
19:50
We don't have to do that anymore.
19:51
So we have to go to gyms, right? We have to inject uncomfortable
19:55
situations. I think it's the same with with
19:57
community. We have to kind of force feed it
19:59
sometimes until our bodies. Go.
20:02
So much, so much safer, right, that I've got people I can call.
20:06
That's so good. And part of that, too, is like
20:08
choosing to choose a place. That's it, yeah.
20:11
Because I think too, there's such trends.
20:13
They were so transitory. You know, you're young, you're
20:15
at college and then you're like deciding, OK, where am I going
20:18
to live? You try this job out in this big
20:19
city maybe. And you know, maybe you don't
20:21
want to live in your hometown. You know you're going to go
20:24
choose something different, but we're so.
20:26
Unrooted and you keep that long text thread that's mostly memes
20:30
that are really funny of your old high school or college
20:32
friends and it's funny and it's awesome.
20:35
That's not connection right and. It's funny you say that cause
20:39
I've heard a lot of people say I felt the most connected in high
20:43
school or college and I've never found that since.
20:46
You know why 'cause I was like, there's a reason 40 year old
20:48
guys still get together and talk about the big game, or there's a
20:52
reason 40 year old women get together still talk about the.
20:54
Sorority party, that one time that Susie got real drunk and
20:56
whatever. They still talk about that
20:58
'cause that was the last time they were part of something
21:00
bigger than themselves. That's it.
21:02
That's the reason my buddies who are in the military, they all
21:04
get together to tell the same stories all the time as the last
21:07
time they were part of something that was bigger than just what's
21:11
my next promotion and what's my kids Little League game going to
21:13
do? That kind of thing.
21:15
I think it's worth some of the illness in travel sports has
21:17
come from is parents trying to use that as I'm part of
21:21
something bigger than myself. And it's like, don't do.
21:23
That's Little League man. Those kids are 9.
21:24
This isn't for you, right? And they can't stop because
21:28
their bodies, like literally, our bodies are so desperate to
21:30
belong. And as we nobody goes to church
21:33
anymore, we've pulled apart civics, nobody does civic stuff
21:36
anymore, the local service organizations, all are all
21:40
falling. Apart and changing and there's
21:43
just not a thing that you're a part of and so you have to
21:46
online game that's about what you got right or or.
21:50
You have to join a political party.
21:51
I was just gonna say politics has.
21:53
Replaced the new religion, Yeah, and the at least with the
21:57
religion. There was a.
21:59
Here's here's the goal. Politics now is there's no,
22:03
there's no destination. Nobody's putting something on
22:05
the table saying here's where we're all gonna go.
22:07
Politics is just saying like, I'm not gonna be that guy.
22:09
It's a tribe. You don't be them 'cause we're,
22:12
we're not them. And they're like, well, we're
22:13
not them, right? Nobody's putting a vision saying
22:15
here's what we could all be. And so I think we're desperate
22:18
for that. OK, I agree with what you're
22:21
saying, and I'm sad to agree. And my husband and I talk about
22:24
this a lot. But like, how do we build
22:25
community where we're at? And we had aspects of it growing
22:30
up, you know, partly because we were kind of, I was
22:32
homeschooled. So like you have their
22:33
homeschool community. I was raised evangelical, so you
22:36
had your church community. So I did have that blessing of
22:38
like having these like very specific communities.
22:42
How do people build that today? You mentioned the neighbor thing
22:45
like. Bring the bread over.
22:46
Be weird. Yeah, I mean, like I always tell
22:49
you got to go 1st and you have to got to be weird.
22:50
And I think underneath that, like I'm tongue in cheek, but I
22:54
think you have to start taking risks.
22:55
What? What does that look like for
22:57
like the, you know, 30 year old single woman or maybe the 45
23:01
year old dad? Like what?
23:02
What is it? What do you mean by risks?
23:04
Community risks. Community building risks.
23:06
One thing I coach people, I'm like, if they're struggling with
23:09
anxiety, I tell them once a week you have to have somebody, you
23:13
have to invite somebody over and you have to leave one thing out
23:16
like a thing of laundry or so you have to leave dishes out.
23:21
Because right now we do it so infrequently that human
23:24
interaction has become a performance.
23:25
I have to look right and your body knows you're on or you're
23:29
on a stage and it it would be failing if it let you sleep,
23:32
'cause you're performing right, You're all by yourself.
23:35
And if you screw this up, this person in your tribe leaves and
23:38
you have to push through. Like, no, I love you just
23:42
because you're you. And I don't care if you've got
23:45
stuff out of your house. I don't.
23:46
I don't care, right? I went home a few, maybe home a
23:51
place in West TX where I spent about 20 years about a year ago
23:54
and two of my oldest friends on the planet and their wives were
23:57
all very close and I was doing a speaking event there.
24:00
I went and we all went to dinner and because I was trying to be
24:04
cool and I was always the poor kid, I always didn't have enough
24:08
money and those guys covered me for years.
24:09
They covered my rent. They those guys were awesome and
24:12
I've had a few the. Friends your.
24:14
Friends, those two buddies and I had back-to-back best selling
24:17
books like in, in the success of years I had, I had a wild couple
24:20
years. And so I stuck my debit card
24:23
behind me to the waiters. He walked by and he just grabbed
24:25
it very nonchalantly and walked on and just to just to wink,
24:29
wink, pay for the meal. And when they brought the check,
24:31
it was already paid. And I was so like, yeah.
24:34
You've arrived. And my buddy, he was like, you
24:37
will never do that again. And I was like, no, you covered
24:39
me. I could do that.
24:40
And he said, no, that's not why we love you.
24:42
And it was this he's. Like you're our friend.
24:47
Like we're not all going to hang out just because you had a good
24:49
year and you suddenly think you're famous.
24:51
Like that's not how this is going to go.
24:53
Like we've known you for 30 years, like you're and it was a.
24:57
This kind of performance is not accepted.
24:59
Here 'cause we love you and that's.
25:00
What we did, did they want to pay because you were visiting
25:03
them? Is that it?
25:04
I was in there, it was hospitality, right?
25:06
It's hospitality. And I took that from them, all
25:08
right? And I took their like, the,
25:10
like, I'm back in their home now 'cause I don't live there
25:12
anymore. And I took it, right?
25:15
And so that was a good reminder like these, these performative
25:19
things. So if you're 30 and you're
25:21
single, know this, it's like oxygen.
25:24
You have to have people and your body would be failing.
25:27
You feel that you sleep all night.
25:29
It just would. Be because your body knows
25:30
you're all by yourself. So you got to be weird and
25:34
invite people to your house or start a bowling league or start
25:38
a book club at work. Do something and get together
25:41
once a week or twice a month and start putting yourself in
25:45
positions. And when people don't show up,
25:47
feel it. That's uncomfortable.
25:48
That's the worst, right? And it's not about you.
25:51
They didn't come because they got stuff going on their life.
25:54
Whether they're ashamed or they're embarrassed or they're
25:56
anxious or whatever. It's not about you.
25:58
It's OK, but one person will come and it will be awkward and
26:02
weird, or maybe two people will come.
26:05
And my hope is if you keep showing up and you keep showing
26:07
up, that people will keep showing up.
26:09
Right. I think it may have been just
26:11
before you, but when I was really young that show Cheers
26:15
was on and that that was the tag like.
26:18
We want to go where everybody knows your name.
26:20
And the people would walk into this bar and everyone would yell
26:23
their name, Norm, all the other name.
26:26
And I think it was just as the American culture was pulling
26:29
itself apart. And I think everyone wanted
26:31
that. So they're just grasping a
26:32
ghost. They wanted that.
26:33
And so I get a choice as whether I'm going to recreate that or
26:36
not. There was, we just baptized her
26:39
daughter and she, we were taking this online course on baptism,
26:44
which we're like, we know what we've done baptism classes
26:46
before. But the parish was like, you got
26:47
to do this little course like, all right.
26:48
And it was with Father Mike Schmitz, who I love, who's very
26:50
cool. I don't know if you've seen come
26:52
across this stuff, but he did a great job with this course.
26:54
We're like, hey, this isn't too bad.
26:55
I'm enjoying this. But he talked about the power of
26:57
a name and belonging in the course.
27:01
And it's like baptism is belonging to the family of God.
27:04
I mean, that's what it is. Yeah.
27:04
You're washed clean of original sin, but you're you're being
27:07
baptized into what? Into a family, eternal, eternal
27:11
family by name. It's your name.
27:15
And I, I was just really reflecting on that.
27:17
Like, we don't think we don't operate that way too much in
27:20
modern society. We're, we're so adrift even from
27:23
our own families, unfortunately, many people, all the trauma
27:26
division, like agitation and then, you know, the fear of
27:29
creating new families or the struggle to even create your own
27:31
family. You can't find a spouse this and
27:33
that you, you divorce, all this stuff.
27:34
And then like you're saying in our communities, like people,
27:37
how many people do you know, like people listening, how many
27:40
people do you know where you can sit in a room with them?
27:44
Be totally yourself, speak freely about yourself.
27:48
Be be like know that you're not going to be judged as a safe
27:50
place. You can just do whatever with
27:52
them or do nothing with them and you have that level of comfort
27:55
and they live close to you. This is not.
27:57
Just that friend. That's the magic.
27:58
It has to be in it's. Someone you see like once a week
28:01
at least. Do you have that person?
28:03
Maybe that maybe you're doing your spouse OK, great.
28:05
Outside of your spouse, does that person exist in your life?
28:08
Well, I think we actually bury our spouses a lot because I
28:10
think we're so lonely that we expect them to carry everything
28:14
and they end up being a trash bin for our day, right?
28:17
We go home and we have no. One to talk to about the hard
28:19
stuff. And so we dump it.
28:20
All there. And we know they've had a hard
28:23
day, so we kind of hedge the good.
28:24
Stuff. And it just kind of gets quiet.
28:27
And then you end up with these parallel lives and you end up on
28:31
the couch and you're 6 inches from each other, but you're 6000
28:34
miles away, 'cause he's got his phone and you got your iPad and
28:36
you end up, you know what I mean?
28:37
It, it just happens. And if you have some place.
28:41
Where like I love you and but these are my, these are the
28:48
women that I'm surrounding my myself with and I need and IA
28:51
week with them. And that's the health of this
28:54
family relies on that. And you got to go.
28:56
My wife will kick me out. All right.
28:58
If there's fights, she's like, get out of my house and go watch
29:01
the fights with your buddies because she knows I get a better
29:03
husband. I get a guy who sleeps a little
29:05
bit deeper. I get a guy who laughs a little
29:07
bit more in the morning. He's not so grumpy, right?
29:09
And it's never convenient, especially these days.
29:13
And housing is expensive, right? So you have to live so far.
29:16
It's hard. And I think the challenge is
29:18
since it's hard, we just think, well, then I'm not going to do
29:21
it. And I think it's killing us.
29:23
So you have to, you have to. And I want to double click on
29:27
something. I think we've, we've even, we
29:30
have, I'm saying this out loud for the first time.
29:34
So I'm thinking out loud. I think we have made faith
29:38
lonely because we've individualized it so much.
29:41
What is this thing going to do for me now and in some life to
29:46
come? And we've lost the no, no, no,
29:49
no, you are now. Part of a family, a community, a
29:51
messy for a community. Ugly, messy, with some crazy
29:55
uncles and some weird cousins. You're in a gang, right?
29:59
And if you need something. That's what we're for.
30:02
You know, it's funny you say that 'cause it really convicted
30:05
me. Father Mike Schmitz convicted
30:06
me, You know, listening to his belonging Ascensions Press
30:09
course. I'm giving them a free shout out
30:11
right here, guys. But because we talk about the
30:14
belonging to the family and, you know, I became Catholic 15 years
30:18
ago, so I love my evangelical brothers and sisters.
30:20
I love my Orthodox, Like we're all ultimately in baptism.
30:22
We're all one big family, right? But it just convicted me about
30:26
Christian, my fellow Christians are my family, 'cause I feel
30:29
like it's easy to point fingers at other Christians and like,
30:32
oh, like, I don't like the way they're doing this or that, or
30:34
they're too far left or too far right or whatever, right.
30:37
And like, if you're baptized, if you're part of the part of the
30:40
family, you're my brother and my sister in Christ.
30:42
And there's a real belonging there and a responsibility there
30:45
for me to like look out for you and care about you.
30:48
And if you annoy me, I should care about you probably a little
30:50
more by praying for you. And I was like, wow, that I
30:53
mean, I kind of knew that, but it really hit home that this
30:55
idea of like an actual physical family, like a belonging, it's
30:59
actually even more significant even than your flesh of blood
31:02
because your spiritual, your spiritual bonds are for eternity
31:05
and. What is?
31:05
What is a, I mean, what, what's the best way to to take
31:12
something down that's important? You divide it up from the inside
31:16
out. And it's so much easier to to
31:20
point out all the different teams who are different than to
31:23
sit down and say all. Right.
31:24
We agree on like 98% of this. Like let's argue about this
31:28
cause on the peripheries or on the edges.
31:31
And by the way, can we take care of widows and feed orphans,
31:34
right? Can we start there, Right?
31:37
And we just can't do that. We, we're, we can.
31:39
We're not doing that. And I think the witness to the
31:42
world's embarrassing sometimes, right, 'cause my gosh.
31:46
They'll know you, but they'll know me by the love you have for
31:48
each other. Yes, exactly.
31:50
Well, it's you said the thing earlier about what do you do?
31:53
You get weird, you invite people, you start a bowling
31:56
league. I mean, you mentioned the widow
31:58
and widows and the orphans. There's so much tangible need in
32:02
our communities. I think a lot of them are
32:04
spiritual needs, emotional needs, because you know, we have
32:06
more abundance physically than in any other, I think century in
32:10
human history. Just the sheer amount of food
32:12
and everyone has an iPhone even in like the third world.
32:15
Like that's crazy. That's a new thing in the last
32:17
century that's happened like post industrial revolution and
32:20
there's like new technology that's being developed that can
32:24
like make larger yields for food and like bioengineer the food to
32:27
make it even more healthy. I mean, there's all the things
32:29
that are happening in that space, but what can we do to be
32:33
inventive or take risks at least to serve the emotional and
32:37
spiritual needs of the community?
32:38
Like what does that look like? Got some ideas?
32:41
Yeah, 'cause I think we lose. I think all those things allow
32:45
us to get further and further away from humanity.
32:48
And I think we there's a he was a songwriter and and since his
32:53
passing, I think his become, I think more of like a theologian
32:57
than a songwriter. But Rich Mullen says we so often
32:59
over spiritualize Jesus and like we miss the guy who defied all
33:05
social convention, like broke the rules.
33:07
And went and met the woman at the well and said gave her a
33:10
purpose. He give me, he give me some
33:12
water check. You're not supposed to be
33:13
talking to me. I'm not supposed to do anything
33:14
for you. And he's like, I don't know, I'm
33:16
thirsty. And then he's like, I see you
33:19
and you got value and I actually, I know you.
33:22
And then at the very end was, hey, there's another way to do
33:25
your life. There's there's another way you
33:27
can have peace. And it wasn't yelling at the
33:32
woman, at the. Well, when you get your life
33:33
right, then this and then this. And then I'll give you a purpose
33:36
is the complete opposite. Yeah.
33:38
And it was, it was putting hands on, I think we, we talked.
33:42
About leprosy. And we talked about the the the
33:44
miracle of it all. We missed the human part.
33:48
Or the little children. I, I guess the kids let the kids
33:51
come to me like they were not supposed to be in that space.
33:55
And he's like, it's messy. It's crazy.
33:57
Like, like there's kids. Children wear cattle.
33:58
They're. Proper kids don't just do what
34:00
you always want them to do. But he's like, let them come and
34:02
sit on my lap. So there's I have a a one of the
34:06
talks I give and there's always this section, it's about trauma
34:08
and there's always a little moment when I always stop and
34:12
say my dream is to just have an event that people would.
34:16
Pay. And they'll, they'll be me in a
34:19
hotel lobby and they'll walk all the way down and I'm just gonna
34:22
put my hands on your face. I'm like be real.
34:23
Awkward and. I'm gonna look at your eyes way
34:26
past. It's comfortable.
34:28
I'm gonna say I'll love you. That's it.
34:29
That's the whole conference and then we're gonna the next
34:31
person. One time I was doing this.
34:35
No, I've never done it. Yeah, it's it was kind of for
34:37
theater. I see.
34:38
Yeah, interesting. Well, whenever I talk about
34:40
trauma, I'm always keep my eyes open for somebody in the
34:42
audience who's like, oh, yeah, really?
34:44
And you're talking about trauma, Like can't tell you about my
34:46
life, right? So I'm in Phoenix doing this and
34:49
this man is in the back. And at the end during Q&A, he, I
34:55
saw him Wheeling himself and he turned down the main aisle and
34:58
he. Had it was a double amputee, had
35:01
his legs, both were removed. And he wheeled himself all the
35:04
way down to the microphone. When he got closer, he was
35:06
covered in moles. It's tough.
35:09
And he said, I want to talk to you about that thing you said.
35:12
I said, what is that? And he said about.
35:16
Touching people's face. I said, Oh yeah.
35:18
And I was like, here it comes, man.
35:19
He's gonna say, like, you hear my story.
35:21
And he was gonna be right. And he said, will you come in
35:24
here and do that for me? Nobody's touched me a long time.
35:28
And it got real silent. And one of the most beautiful
35:31
things, the person filming it turned the.
35:32
Camera off and said hey, I don't film holy moments.
35:35
Hope that was OK. And I was like, that's right.
35:38
But they were. That's the story of the lepers
35:41
that we missed, of course. Yeah.
35:42
And it was a it was a holy moment.
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36:28
And like even like the but even in that like the physical touch,
36:32
physical touch I think too, because we're so sexualized and
36:35
we're so confused and things are so divisive, even that physical
36:39
touch has been so. Jesus touched a leper.
36:43
Those guys who had gone 12510 years without.
36:45
Human contact. And he's like, no, I, I'm, I got
36:48
you. So there's a miracle part and
36:50
that's fantastic and and cool. But he went to the least of
36:53
these, and was in their presence, and put his hand on
36:55
the shoulders. I see you right.
36:57
And at one university I worked at, it was a large research
37:01
university. During the HR onboarding they
37:03
recommended the air high. Five, to avoid any confusion.
37:06
Right. Like let's just, let's just.
37:09
Drain all of human, human contact out of our society.
37:12
And there's creepers and there's gross people and there's idiots
37:15
everywhere. And if you take touch out of the
37:17
human experience, we die, right? And so we have to find a balance
37:22
but but it's costing us everything.
37:24
And so at this point I just go be weird.
37:26
Just go be weird. Pick up the tab if you can.
37:30
Right 'cause people are struggling.
37:32
Cool. Like.
37:35
Pay it forward, even at the at the store, right?
37:37
Like, well, it's like this. Like the?
37:39
Guy's coffee behind you in line. Get it's coffee.
37:41
Even that, but like, hey, let's go to coffee, I'm buying 'cause
37:44
I know you're struggling, right? Or come over for lunch.
37:47
Come over for lunch or I'm buying concert tickets and
37:49
they're so stupid expensive right now.
37:51
I don't want to not go to the show and I'm not going to go by
37:53
myself in 10 years. I'm going to be super glad you
37:57
and I went and jumped up and down and screamed and sang our
38:00
heads off. I'm not going to remember that
38:01
$120.00. I'm just not.
38:02
Right. And if you can't do that, then
38:05
we're going to figure something else out.
38:06
But it's stopping with some of the old social hurdles.
38:11
And it's like, we're all going to the show, I'm going to figure
38:14
it out, but we're all going to the show.
38:15
Like we need to go to that concert.
38:17
And if you can, then. We'll be great.
38:18
If you can't, great, but we're going to show because I'd rather
38:20
that experience singing together and I, I think that's just has
38:24
to be how we reorient what we're doing.
38:27
It's really good. Yeah.
38:28
I think about like children, and I mean, having little ones
38:32
myself and just be involved in pro-life, work and just children
38:36
not being valued, not being even that trust that we can handle
38:40
it. I think that's a lot of the fear
38:42
behind abortion is I can't do this and it's better to kill.
38:45
It's better to not. They don't think about it as
38:46
killing. Typically it's better to just
38:47
erase this pregnancy like it never happened.
38:50
And so there's just just again, rejection of the the risk of the
38:54
whole thing, the whole project of life and children.
38:57
But even today with the way we treat young kids, I mean, I'm
39:01
thinking about like the Snoo. I don't know if you saw, I don't
39:04
know how old's your your youngest.
39:05
I have a 14 year old and an. 8 year old.
39:06
So this yeah, the Snoo like got popular during the pandemic.
39:09
I think it's this rock, it's this bassinet that rocks the
39:13
baby for you. You strap them in real tight and
39:17
he will it even shushing noises so that it like does the
39:20
rocking. You don't have to.
39:21
You have a robot rocker for your baby, right?
39:24
And so I was a brand new mom and my husband and I are like, OK,
39:26
it's very expensive, but we're going to spring for this because
39:28
this one friend is like, it just helped us sleep all night.
39:30
And so, but I'm my little tiny newborn first child and this
39:35
like robot is rocking my baby for me and he's like screaming
39:38
and then it rocks him faster and then he like falls asleep.
39:41
And after a little while, again, not to judge people who
39:44
sometimes use snooze, but we end up just not using it because I
39:47
thought about the time of life that he I have when he's little,
39:50
when he wants physical touch, he wants to be close, he wants to
39:54
smell me, he wants to feel me. He wants me at least another
39:57
human being. Dad, you know, maybe babysitter,
40:00
sometimes grandma. But he wants he needs parents.
40:02
He needs love. Right.
40:04
Yeah, I know it's not cool to say that and I know it's not
40:06
but, but like physiologically. He needs mom.
40:09
His body's been. Programmed by that heart, by
40:12
your heartbeat. Right, Yes, thank you for saying
40:15
that. It's.
40:15
Not cool to say, but it is. And dads are awesome and
40:18
important, but I wasn't as important as my wife was.
40:20
Yeah. Thank you.
40:22
It just is. And you know what I mean.
40:24
And I think, I think as long as we stop, hopefully that's not
40:30
shaming to somebody who's working three jobs.
40:31
Trying to put food on the table. Or just someone who uses a Snoo.
40:35
You know, like again, No, no, but.
40:37
But it is what it is, right? And it's just like, how do we
40:40
make all of our choices in life to maximize the physicality,
40:44
like being there with our family, especially like young
40:48
children need mom, right? And physically just holding
40:52
them. I mean, I think about the power
40:53
of a hug because you're talking about touch for a young child.
40:56
Like, how often do we really hug our kids?
40:58
How often do we hug our spouse? How often do we hug our friend?
41:01
What about those people who say, like, my love language is not
41:04
touch? They don't touch me.
41:06
I mean. They just need to be touched.
41:08
He's like a more. I mean, yeah, that's the whole
41:12
rabbit hole. The, the whole, the, the, the,
41:16
we're just talking about this in the car on the way over.
41:19
I think some of those like what's your love language or
41:22
what's your anagram number, What's your Myers Briggs,
41:24
whatever. Those are fun, reflective tools,
41:26
but they're not. Gospel, and they're not.
41:29
A lot of them aren't scientifically backed at all.
41:32
And so they have made their way into our culture.
41:35
As I don't, I don't give gifts 'cause that's not my love
41:39
language. Wait, so someone says hey, I
41:41
don't do touch, I don't do hugs? I would want to know, tell me
41:44
about that, 'cause that's a Courtney, right?
41:46
That's a Courtney. And man, maybe there's any
41:48
number of reasons why hugging wasn't safe.
41:51
Growing up, for me, I don't like it.
41:53
I've been having to defend and protect myself my whole life.
41:55
I had to be like this, right? Awesome.
41:57
Like that's, that's an important part of the story.
42:00
And it's not to force hugging on anybody at all, but it's let's
42:04
get to the root of it. Let's don't take it just as a
42:07
personality. Trait that's unchangeable.
42:09
Right. And your kid might be you.
42:13
Know what I mean? I function best with eight hours
42:16
of sleep. I just do.
42:17
I wish I didn't. I just do.
42:19
If I have a. Newborn I got to hold my kid and
42:21
it just is right and that means I'm going to have to really cash
42:25
in on some other things in my life for a season and.
42:29
I don't wish I could, I wish I didn't have to do that, but I
42:32
do. It's just owning reality and we
42:34
have a culture that allows us to push off reality in so many
42:39
different parts of our life. We can't afford it.
42:40
We'll just borrow it. I'm exhausted.
42:43
Let's just put it in the robot. I I.
42:46
Or abort it. Unfortunately, like that,
42:48
there's so many other plans. That we have, right.
42:51
And so I think core to our being psychologically well is just
42:57
owning reality. This is the world I've I'm in
42:59
right now and I'm going to own it.
43:01
And let's be real about it. And what's the state of my
43:03
marriage? What's the state of my
43:04
parenting? What's the state of my health?
43:06
And then we can make some real decisions moving forward.
43:08
We just keep avoiding it all. And if somebody calls it out and
43:11
us, then we instantly go to shame.
43:13
We instantly go to anger and we instantly go to rage.
43:16
And I think a lot of that covers up.
43:17
Grief. Like I'm just tired, right?
43:20
And nobody gives us permission to not put our kid in every and
43:24
every travel sport and every dance team.
43:26
And nobody gives us permission to let our kids.
43:28
Dude, get your kids can get bees.
43:29
Your everyone's going to live. It's going to be fine, right?
43:33
Nobody gives you permission to go to community.
43:35
College if. You can't afford XY and like
43:39
nobody gives you permission to do that.
43:41
And so every parent I know is walking around feeling like a
43:44
giant failure factory 24/7 because the entire.
43:48
Culture said. You're.
43:50
Not doing enough and. Can I tell you the greatest the
43:54
of all the degrees I got all the people I've sat with the
43:56
greatest piece of parenting advice I've ever received from
43:58
Jack Black and it the actor. The actor.
44:01
From the trains planes, not from.
44:04
A no, not no. Nice John Candy.
44:05
It's Jack Black from like Little panda Tenacious D Yeah, but he
44:13
said don't ever try to make a happy kid happier.
44:15
And he went on to talk about how his kid and I'm.
44:18
I'm messing up the story but was playing in the mud with a.
44:20
Stick or something and he was like, I'm Jack Black, like I'm a
44:24
multi million. I my kids gonna do like
44:27
elevated. Things gonna.
44:29
Be a golden stick. Well, they ended up, he said.
44:31
My kid ended up three hours later completely over
44:33
stimulated, sugared out of his mind.
44:36
And it was because I made that exchange about me.
44:39
What I could have done, should have done is sat down in the mud
44:41
and. Played with the kid and so we
44:44
over. We over what's the right word.
44:49
We over create a world that our kids need and they don't.
44:52
They just want us man. And it can be little like my 14
44:56
year old when he started 6th grade we started going to
44:58
breakfast every Tuesday at a Waffle House.
45:01
My son gets It's a. Laboratory.
45:02
Man, my son gets to see me interact with the waitress who
45:05
no one wants to be working at waffles at 6:30 in the morning.
45:07
They don't. He gets to see how we tip.
45:10
He gets to see how when you tip somebody and you are obnoxious
45:14
about it, how and during Christmas how they chase you out
45:18
in the parking lot sobbing like you just gave their family
45:21
Christmas right. He used to see all that.
45:23
It's not just talking about it and when your food's.
45:25
Bad or it's late and you still honor the waitress because it's
45:27
not her fault, but because it's he used to learn all that and
45:30
how you talk to the other people and and he gets to feel like and
45:34
the most important person in my dad's world today is me.
45:37
It's me and 'cause it was 45 minutes before I dropped him off
45:40
at school, right? So we, we think it has to be
45:42
this and this. We have to go to Disneyland.
45:43
You don't just show up for your kid.
45:45
Just show up and just show up and just show up.
45:47
And the same with your spouse and same with your friends and
45:49
same with, we over dramatize it all.
45:52
Just show up, man. Why?
45:54
Why do we over dramatize it so much?
45:56
I mean, of course people isn't like, well, the marketing and
46:00
the media and the, you know, comparison keeping up with the
46:02
Joneses. It goes all the way back to we
46:04
were talking about it. 'Cause I don't think I'm enough.
46:06
I don't think I'm you know what I mean?
46:08
I just know all the ways I wish I was like.
46:10
I have to be more successful, wealthier, smarter.
46:13
I've got to give my kid these shoes, this shirt, these
46:16
clothes, this experience because.
46:19
It's not enough to just be human, no.
46:20
It's not. Yeah.
46:22
And the culture's done a remarkable job convincing us
46:25
we're not enough. And that just gets passed on to
46:27
our spouses and to our kids and to our neighbors and our
46:29
communities. And so it's like, just tell me.
46:31
Who are we all? Hating I'll OK, I'll just I'm on
46:34
your team so just tell me and we'll OK.
46:37
Right, and that's that's rooted in what I'm not enough as rooted
46:40
in not experiencing, not having that lived experience and
46:46
holding on to it of being loved as you are unconditionally by
46:50
God, who's olive enough, who's everything that there possibly
46:53
is like what? What does that root back to?
46:55
Probably I mean as a person of faith that's I would put a lot
46:58
of it there is that as a culture we've cut all the tethers to a
47:01
shared. Story that we're all a part of a
47:03
shared team. Shared family like the family of
47:06
God. And when you get down to brass
47:09
tacks, I think our my granddad came home from World War Two and
47:16
and then my dad got a job and then halfway through much other,
47:20
my mom got a job. And then the world suddenly
47:22
needed two incomes to survive. And, and the best way we could
47:27
keep up this life was I got to make more money.
47:29
I got to make more, I got to be busier.
47:30
And then it just spun out. And then you had a group of like
47:34
a whole band of kids who raise themselves and you have another
47:37
band of kids who just have gone whoosh into their phones.
47:40
And it's just, I mean, it just played itself out.
47:44
And I have a lot of hope too. Like, before I left the
47:48
university system, that's where I spent most of my careers in
47:50
universities. It was the students.
47:53
That were starting the 18 year olds that were like.
47:56
Everybody stack your phone up and the first person to grab.
47:58
It at dinner has to pay for dinner.
47:59
They were starting to self select.
48:01
Out right. It was like kids realizing I
48:03
don't like smoking. I feel bad right?
48:05
There's no there's no morality to it.
48:06
I just. Don't feel good they've done.
48:07
Polls where and surveys where people say if you could have do
48:13
you want your Instagram taken away, your TikTok taken away?
48:15
And they're like, no, OK, if everyone else just deleted the
48:19
app and everyone's like take it. And this is for younger people.
48:23
Some older people are like, I still like it, you know, But
48:24
like for young people, like I don't like this thing that I'm
48:28
doing, this constant performance, this constant like
48:30
comparison, this. Constant like addiction and
48:32
every parent has that feeling in their stomach.
48:34
No parent feels good about it. You know, I remember a it was a
48:38
documentary about like. I don't want to.
48:41
Blast any I think it was Country Crock about margarine and they
48:44
were talking to these grandmas and the grandmothers were like.
48:47
We knew it was bad. Like we, we knew in our guts.
48:50
Cisco or Crisco? Whatever it was, but they were
48:53
like, no, but they said we're hurting our kids.
48:55
When these scientists came out and said stop giving your kids
48:58
butter that's got fat in it, give them this processed soybean
49:03
or. Whatever it was.
49:04
Right. And it was this.
49:05
You you double. They question you.
49:08
Question your gut and you just go with the expert.
49:10
And you're like, OK, if I I don't hurt my kids, I don't hurt
49:12
my kids. And and so here we, yeah, we got
49:15
down a rabbit hole. And so none of us trust
49:18
ourselves. And so we just outsource it and
49:21
we don't have communities. I know I get real emotional.
49:25
Like I get overly dramatic about everything.
49:28
Two of my best friends on planet earth.
49:30
One is the CFO of an HVAC company, One's.
49:33
A high level bank examiner. Those two guys are like walking
49:38
Xanax's, right? They're just like stable and so
49:42
I can call and be like, Can you believe?
49:43
And they're like, yeah, that's exactly what your wife should
49:45
have said to you, 'cause you're an idiot, right?
49:47
And I need that accountability. But I have.
49:50
I've got people in my life. That I bounced that off of.
49:53
And if you go through life. And you're all you've got, Man,
49:56
that's a tough. See, and there's some people.
49:59
Just like the physical touch thing, there's some people who
50:00
are like, well, I'm an internal processor.
50:03
I'm more of an introvert. I am more private by nature.
50:07
And introvert. That's it.
50:08
Doesn't matter. You're an introvert.
50:10
Yeah, wow. Yeah, I mean you.
50:12
Wouldn't I think that themed out with you?
50:13
But yeah, I I can. Would you say the same thing
50:16
about the love language? Just think if someone says like
50:18
well I'm really private, that's just like the way I am
50:20
culturally. Cool and find a small group.
50:23
You still need those guys, you, those girls, whatever.
50:25
That's like just saying like I, I can't drink 9 glasses of water
50:29
a day, OK, well, you need six. You can't not drink water
50:32
anymore, right? Or your body will shrivel up
50:34
and, and, and turn to dust, right?
50:36
It's the same thing. It's just, I mean, human contact
50:40
is scary and it's vulnerable and you can get rejected.
50:43
And that's the thing that haunts most of us.
50:45
That idea of like, here's me, do you still love me?
50:49
And then I think we're so scared of the answer to that question.
50:52
And going back to the faith thing, I think that's why that's
50:54
so important 'cause now you're my family, like you're never
50:58
gonna be out of my family like you're here.
51:01
And a a rad thing we did the other night.
51:05
My son has this group of. Rad 8th graders and they've been
51:09
together for a long time and they are as every bit middle
51:11
school as you could possibly be and it's everything from on a
51:15
podcaster to one guy's an executive, one guy just.
51:17
Was a Walmart executive another guy like does?
51:19
Breaks. I mean it's.
51:20
Like the 8th graders, no. No, no, the parents the.
51:23
Parents are all over the place. Right.
51:25
One guy works at the like, manages the deli and he so
51:28
everybody's all over the place. But this gang found themselves
51:31
three years ago and they've been write or die.
51:33
And we had this little ceremony for him at the end of 8th grade.
51:37
And it was, but I asked all the dads.
51:39
We all write something and it was cool.
51:42
How many? Dads were like before I go know
51:45
this now as you enter high school, you can't do a thing
51:49
that I won't come get you like you can't There will not be a
51:51
thing that you a a situation you find yourself in that I'll stop
51:55
loving you. And I think if we knew that
51:58
about our neighbors, if we knew that about our.
52:01
But if it's. Murder.
52:01
I'll take you to the police officer.
52:03
I'll sit with you. Yeah, I've.
52:04
I've got that call. I've got that call.
52:06
Like my son. I don't even know if it aired.
52:09
My son, I just just got arrested for child pornography.
52:12
And do I hire a big fancy attorney?
52:16
I know he didn't. And I was like, no, because you
52:19
got to get that kid. I've got a child, I've got a
52:21
little girl. Get that guy off the street.
52:23
And also you're his mom. So I'm going to hold, I'm going
52:26
to hold your hand while you go to right.
52:30
I'll be with you when you accept your consequences and.
52:33
I'm not going to try to protect you from the consequences of
52:35
your action. That can actually help.
52:37
I'm going to love you. I'm going to.
52:39
Love you. Yeah, I'm going to love you.
52:40
It it through the the the messiest of the messy, right.
52:44
And I, I don't think any of us, I don't think we have that.
52:47
I don't think our parents were, they didn't have a model for my
52:50
dad. Granddad came from World War
52:51
Two. You know that model, right?
52:52
And my dad was a homicide detective.
52:54
Like they don't have that. He, he wasn't.
52:56
Trained on what's the right things to say and so that's OK,
52:58
but I think the more we can be anchored into a community that
53:02
come with me my my group of guys I'll never forget this when I
53:08
first met him and I was kind of just.
53:09
Mouthing off and running my mouth and my wife and I are like
53:13
this, but I had moved six months earlier and she was finishing up
53:17
her research before she moved. And I there's a group of six or.
53:24
Seven of us, and they're like, hey, what do?
53:26
You do you need anything? I was like, yeah, I'm all.
53:28
By myself for like 6 months. Does anyone know like like where
53:32
do you go find dates in this town and I?
53:34
Was trying to make a. Joke.
53:35
It landed real flat. It wasn't funny at all.
53:38
But one of the guys, his name was Kevin, he looked at me and
53:40
he said, hey, you don't know us very well.
53:42
So just just so we're all on the, everybody's on the same
53:45
page. If you cheat on your wife, you
53:48
would hope to God she'd find you before we do and.
53:51
It was kind of this lit. I looked up and all the guys
53:54
that's so refreshing. They were all looking at and it
53:56
was like, OK, guys, I was playing.
53:59
I was, I was playing right? And I know those guys love me
54:04
and I know if that happened, they'd be with me.
54:06
But just here's the standard. Here's who we're going to be.
54:09
That's so rare though, because I think there's still a lot of
54:11
communities where people like have their buddy that they get
54:14
burgers with or they do the gym with, or their girlfriend that
54:18
they go to the concert with. But are they somebody that's not
54:21
just sharing time with them, but somebody that's going to hold
54:25
them accountable and get to know them at a deeper level?
54:28
But I only have permission to hold you accountable after I
54:30
said I see you and I love you, right?
54:33
I mean and. You have to have a shared
54:34
morality too that you are going to be accountable around.
54:38
Maybe I I think if that cheating is wrong, you have to have
54:40
shared values. Yeah.
54:41
And hey, by the way, you're new. Here, some people think
54:44
cheating's not. A deal.
54:45
Or they might think it's a big deal, but they also think you do
54:48
you, right? Right, exactly.
54:49
And I can divorce the this part of you for this, but I go back
54:54
to the woman that Jesus who was caught in adultery.
54:57
They didn't, they didn't share that, but he got between her and
55:01
the guys that are about to stone her to death and he.
55:06
Defended first before there was shared values.
55:09
And then he said, hey, like there's another way you can
55:12
live, right? And so I think sometimes it, it
55:15
is shared values and sometimes it is no, this is just who I am.
55:18
This is my set of values. I'm gonna protect and defend.
55:20
And then I'll call you into something higher.
55:23
But I'm gonna go 1st. And I think we get caught up in
55:26
the whose team people are on. It's just saying, hey, we don't
55:28
talk to each other like that here.
55:29
I don't care who you are, right? This.
55:30
I wasn't on this guy's team. Yet I just shown up.
55:33
And he's like, hey, we don't. That's not even funny.
55:35
Andy, by the way, he's a clown. Like he's one of the most
55:37
obnoxious. Funny.
55:41
If he ever hears this, I delete our text.
55:43
Threads every once in a while just just because.
55:45
But it, it's like it took courage from him to maybe, maybe
55:49
not for him personally, 'cause he's so used to being
55:50
courageous. So he's naturally courageous.
55:52
But for somebody else to like be the person in the friend group
55:55
to like, Nah, I don't, I don't think that's good.
55:57
But doing it in that, in that way where they see you, they
55:59
want to get to know they know you, they love you, but they're
56:01
willing to say, hey, this is how we roll.
56:03
This is a problem. That's right.
56:04
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that takes moral, moral
56:08
courage. Yeah, that's exactly what it is.
56:10
And I'm willing to, I'm willing to, I'm willing to have you not
56:14
like. Me, I'm OK with that.
56:16
I'm all grown up. But he he's OK with it too,
56:18
because but because he's got other love in his life, it
56:21
sounds like like he's uncut. He's anchored.
56:23
In he's not untethered. So do you love me?
56:24
Do you love me? Do you love me?
56:25
He's like, no, no, I'm loved. And when you're anchored in and
56:28
when you're loved, then you can go be the change that people
56:31
need. I think a lot of us try to go
56:34
fix everything unanchored and you just end up.
56:38
You get absorbed. Yeah, you can't do it alone.
56:41
All right, I wanted to ask you because this is a question I get
56:44
a ton and when I do like an Instagram story and it's always
56:46
like, what are your cute? The Q&A and usually the
56:50
question. I get at least several of these
56:53
questions which have to do with finding a spouse, Like how do I
56:57
find, how do I find someone or how do I know they're the one?
57:01
Or I mean, a lot of people at least who listen to this
57:05
podcast. Yeah, there's a lot of married
57:06
people, but there's a lot of people who aren't married, who
57:08
are, who want to get married. Well, one, I think it's
57:12
important to say I'm like, I'm a terrible.
57:14
Person to ask that I've been the same person for like 1/4
57:16
century. So come on, John.
57:17
You've got some stuff for me, I know.
57:18
Yeah. You've got that on your show,
57:21
I'm sure. All the time.
57:22
Where do we where do we meet people?
57:24
I, I heard some people say like, I'm so done with dating apps.
57:27
I'm like, like treat it like a job.
57:30
Do the dating app thing. This world.
57:32
Unfortunately, because the community is so broken down, I
57:34
mean get involved in the community put.
57:36
Yourself out there, that's it. I, I think it's both and I think
57:39
the challenge with the dating apps is they, I was just talking
57:46
about this with somebody recently.
57:50
My wife grew up on some acres outside of her small town.
57:54
Her parents were school teachers and she listened to country
57:56
music. I did not.
57:58
I was like a punk rock kid and we had very different lives.
58:03
I grew up in Houston and the Astrodome was like this.
58:05
Shrine where the Astros played and the Oilers played.
58:08
Well, they were closing it down and had one last event and she
58:12
had just moved to town and we, I think we were engaged at the
58:14
time, but this guy named George Strait was playing there, this
58:19
country. Legend.
58:20
I'd heard the name. I didn't know George Strait when
58:24
I told her she was like Oh my gosh that would be amazing.
58:26
So I did everything I could and I called this guy who knew this
58:30
guy and called that guy and I got 2 tickets and he got us
58:34
great seats and when we got there.
58:37
He was a lot, I mean bajillions of people.
58:40
It's completely sold out. President comes in on a horse.
58:45
George Strait yes, I mean, it was such a.
58:48
To come watch the concert. Yes, it was.
58:51
Well, it just, it was just part of the theater.
58:52
Oh, like George. I think it was George.
58:56
It was Bush. One comes down on a horse and
58:59
there's fireworks inside. It was wild.
59:02
And I look over and my wife is crying.
59:04
She knew every word. And I got to I'd, I'd known her
59:09
for five years, six years at this point.
59:10
I got to experience. This.
59:12
No idea and back up a few years before we got married I had her
59:16
come. I was like, hey.
59:18
Part of the dating thing, you got to go at least one like punk
59:20
rock show with me. It's midnight before the band
59:23
even goes on. She's up against the wall in
59:24
this tiny punk club called Fitzgerald's Downtown Houston.
59:27
And I look over at one point, 'cause we were all crashing into
59:30
each other and she was smiling ear to ear.
59:32
Wanted nothing to do with it. But it was just like, I haven't
59:34
seen you that happy. I say all that to say, nowadays
59:38
that would be a check box. Like, name your three artists
59:41
that you like. George Strait and this and this,
59:43
I'd go OK. And I'd probably pull up three
59:45
songs on Spotify and be like, and I would, I'd move on.
59:48
And I would miss knowing her right.
59:51
And so the apps take all that stuff.
59:54
It takes all these shared experiences and they turn it
59:56
into a do. You think we're too picky then
59:59
In a weird way, like a. 1000%. Yes, like oh, they don't align
1:00:03
in these areas. I went to a church camp right
1:00:05
before I went to college and they gave us the like the fear
1:00:07
spiel, like the world's going to take away your morals and blah,
1:00:10
blah. And so they had us write down.
1:00:14
10 uncompromising truths about the person we're gonna spend our
1:00:17
life with I've been with the same person for 25 years and she
1:00:23
had eight out of 10 and one of them I'm I'm sorry two out of
1:00:26
10/8 were wrong and. Uncompromising truths meaning
1:00:31
like 6 feet tall like. It was whatever, whatever you
1:00:35
want, whatever. Put in your, put in your order.
1:00:38
These are the non negotiables because the world's gonna get
1:00:40
you to negotiate, right? And so that's.
1:00:42
So funny 'cause I, I mean, it was insane.
1:00:44
It's got a little. Insane.
1:00:45
I mean I can understand the whole like.
1:00:46
Don't get in bed to do with each other before marriage.
1:00:48
Like yes, Chuck, don't do that, but the whole like put in your
1:00:51
menu. Like, I think one of them was
1:00:52
like, have a sleeve tattoo and drink beer from a bottle.
1:00:54
I mean, it's just the stupid stuff when you're 18, right?
1:00:58
And so none it it, yes, we're, I think we're way too picky about
1:01:03
things that don't matter. And too and not picky enough
1:01:05
maybe about the things. That did, and I think we share a
1:01:07
lot of I'm a punk rock kid from Houston and she is a used to
1:01:11
ride barrel races and a country music person from West, TX and
1:01:15
we've made a pretty remarkable life together.
1:01:17
And no app would have picked it. No app would have picked it.
1:01:20
And so I do think you have to play that game, the dating app
1:01:23
game, 'cause it is, but as often as possible.
1:01:26
As you can go out and be weird, go out and find people to be
1:01:30
around. So I want to drill down into
1:01:31
what you're saying, 'cause I think it's so important.
1:01:33
You're saying be picky about the things that matter and don't
1:01:38
sweat the things that don't matter in dating.
1:01:41
Otherwise, you may miss, right? You may miss the the one.
1:01:45
The most annoying thing early on we were dating is that she
1:01:47
didn't like to go to all my crazy concerts and then I ended
1:01:51
up finding a bunch of great friends that went to those
1:01:53
crazy. Shows with me right 'cause.
1:01:54
We want them to be more. Than she can't be 100%.
1:01:57
No, she can't. Nobody can carry that weight.
1:02:00
Do you think, though, part of it, too, is connected to just
1:02:02
how pornified our society is? So we have these expectations
1:02:05
for the physical, the physicality or the physical
1:02:08
feeling we may have with them. How much of it is that too?
1:02:11
Well, I think like when you're swiping literally, like if
1:02:13
you're on a dating app, you're like, oh, I don't like this.
1:02:15
I'm gonna. Swipe, of course, of course.
1:02:16
Well, I think it's, I think it's a distillation.
1:02:18
I think all of it comes from lonely.
1:02:20
I don't have anybody else, so you have to be everything for
1:02:22
me. You have to be my muse.
1:02:24
You have to be. We have to be sexually active
1:02:26
into our 90s, which means you have to be hot all the time
1:02:28
forever. You have to be the best Co
1:02:30
parent. You have to be a Co earner
1:02:32
because we can't afford to live this fantasy life of to drive
1:02:35
this car in this house, whatever.
1:02:37
We just created this insanity, and I expect you to carry all
1:02:40
that you can't. I've got two buddies right now,
1:02:42
Pete and Blake. We go to a lot of crazy shows.
1:02:44
We're too old. To be going to some of these
1:02:45
concerts and it's so fun. My wife likes to go to bed at
1:02:48
9:00, right? And so why in the world would I
1:02:51
take that from her? And she's like, thank God he's
1:02:54
got friends that he goes to these silly shows with.
1:02:57
And she goes to poetry readings downtown with her friend.
1:03:00
And I'm really grateful she's got that right.
1:03:02
And so it's being able to have other people in your life.
1:03:06
So this person is enough to carry the weight of your world.
1:03:08
That was designed, as you talked about earlier, a whole tribe.
1:03:11
Used to carry right your faith community used to carry some of
1:03:14
that your pastor used to carry some of that your your.
1:03:18
People, you're digging holes with your fellow mothers.
1:03:20
Used to do that, carry that stuff with you, right?
1:03:22
And now we have nobody. And so you find a romantic
1:03:25
person like that you're interested in.
1:03:27
You gotta carry all of it. And that's madness.
1:03:29
And we crush each other under that weight.
1:03:31
And so I actually think it's carrying the weight of that man.
1:03:37
Pornography is an easy home. It's an easy out 'cause I can't
1:03:40
it it it it it's a it allows me to not get buried right or.
1:03:46
I think some of the this is an over generalization, but women
1:03:49
read it and then watch it, right?
1:03:51
There's a, there's. A I know, I think it's true.
1:03:53
While the romance stuff is resurged in such a powerful way.
1:03:56
Well, I mean, the 50 Shades of Grey phenomenon was a lot of
1:03:59
women reading that and watching that stuff more than men, from
1:04:02
my understanding. And it's just like we want to.
1:04:05
But it's, it's a, it's a little, it's a, it's a way to feel a
1:04:08
little more. Alive because we have that quiet
1:04:10
life of desperation and 'cause I can't carry all of your garbage
1:04:14
and all your stuff and all that 'cause you have nobody to talk
1:04:16
to and or we outsource it and have to hire it so you get to
1:04:19
hire a therapist. We've over therapized
1:04:21
everything, right? And so we just have nobody.
1:04:25
And so I think, yeah, there's a pornification to it, there's an
1:04:27
algorithm to it, all that. But we've just sucked the the
1:04:31
rhythm of life and the awkward and the weird, which is all the
1:04:34
good stuff. And, and you're saying that
1:04:35
because the people, whether you're in the dating pool or,
1:04:38
you know, you're talking about pornography and addictions to
1:04:41
pornography and women, you know, into 50 Shades of Grey and all
1:04:45
of this like stuff, right? It's Xanax.
1:04:49
It's it's yeah, it's like to soothe all of.
1:04:51
The the. Desire that's broken and down in
1:04:54
us, like we just want this comfort of some kind, or you
1:04:57
said we want to feel alive. Well, I think we, we've said we
1:05:00
have to have a house like this, we have to have this school, we
1:05:03
have to drive this car, our kids have to dress like this and go
1:05:06
to these schools. And so we create this world of
1:05:09
non negotiables that no one can carry, and then we have no one
1:05:12
to carry. It with us.
1:05:13
And then we're buried and life gets.
1:05:15
Exhausting and boring and repetitive.
1:05:20
And how do you feel alive? I'm just going to knock in
1:05:23
Sports Gamble on my phone suite. That's like, I'm just going to
1:05:27
watch sports because. They're doing it.
1:05:29
I'm not even playing anymore. My dad was in a softball league.
1:05:31
When's the last time? You heard that?
1:05:32
Right now we just watch professionals play our sports
1:05:34
for us. So pornography is is a is a
1:05:36
piece. Of a much bigger.
1:05:38
People trying to escape their own lives.
1:05:40
And you, we talked about community earlier as the
1:05:42
antidote, as a part of the antidote, right?
1:05:46
You need to be embodied in the flesh, doing stuff with people
1:05:48
who know you, right? And sharing common causes with
1:05:52
them is part of it. Even if it's a bowling league,
1:05:54
you're trying to like, you know, I guess win the game.
1:05:57
I don't know. But you want to do service with
1:05:59
these people. You want to love them, know them
1:06:00
as they are. Are there other things too that
1:06:03
you would say, generally speaking, you'd recommend?
1:06:05
I mean, God, I think is key. Obviously like you need to know
1:06:08
who you are before God, 'cause he's he's, he needs.
1:06:10
To plug into something. Bigger than you, yeah.
1:06:12
You do. And someone from my faith, it's
1:06:15
that's a Christian faith, but you've got to plug into
1:06:17
something because because the self actualization, like the
1:06:20
self can't hold, the Sinner can't hold, right?
1:06:22
It was never designed to hold up the universe.
1:06:24
And the more the self becomes the God that we worship at the
1:06:29
foot of, the more we pile on there.
1:06:31
And it can't hold it can't carry it.
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So, So in the dating context, back to the advice you're giving
1:07:28
to people who are looking for that relationship, how do you
1:07:32
know when? Yeah, you don't want to be too
1:07:34
picky. You want to find someone that
1:07:38
also though has enough shared values, right?
1:07:40
And it's going the same direction, like has those same
1:07:42
and values in terms of not just moral values of like, yeah,
1:07:44
we're not going to have sex before marriage as an example.
1:07:46
But we're the kind of people that want to really know be be
1:07:50
transparent with each other. You know, we want to get
1:07:52
vulnerable with each other. We're the kind of people who
1:07:54
want to take these risks of love with our community.
1:07:57
Like that's that's the value beyond just don't do these bad
1:08:00
things. It's like, what are we doing
1:08:02
positively together and talk more about that you have to.
1:08:05
Spend some time being reflective, and most of us don't
1:08:07
do that. Most of your journal?
1:08:09
Yeah. I wish there was another way.
1:08:11
I've got mine in my bag. I wish I didn't.
1:08:13
I wish. I wish there was another way to
1:08:14
hack that. There's just not.
1:08:16
Meaning you got to do the work of understanding your own
1:08:19
desires, understand your own issue.
1:08:21
Like you can't just there's not like a box you can check to be
1:08:24
like we share values. OK, it's work.
1:08:26
Like no. And and I always tell people, be
1:08:29
very concrete at what you anchor your values into.
1:08:33
Values should not. Change very often.
1:08:36
Meaning like if your value is oh I value honesty right?
1:08:40
What does that mean? You can value honesty.
1:08:42
Your beliefs should change all the time.
1:08:44
That's why I read new books, that's why I listen to different
1:08:46
podcasts. That's why I have interviews.
1:08:48
I mean, I mean discussions like this because I get to meet new
1:08:50
people. And I believe that the best
1:08:52
expression of this. Value was X, right?
1:08:56
You know, I work with Dave Ramsey and the joke is always
1:08:58
like, how are you all two together, like?
1:09:01
'Cause we just do things differently.
1:09:04
What do you mean? Are you like a?
1:09:05
What does that mean? Like, well, you're clearly
1:09:08
different personalities. I'll give you that much, Yeah.
1:09:11
But the idea being like curious like.
1:09:13
Values. Wise what we always tell people
1:09:16
is we both love Jesus and we both want to help people.
1:09:18
I see, Dave, just sometimes you. Use a credit card.
1:09:20
I want to no, I want to hug somebody.
1:09:22
And Dave might say you're stupid, right?
1:09:24
Or Dave might say. Like OK, come sit down.
1:09:27
So operationally like how you live out.
1:09:29
Generosity so the belief of yeah, how do you live out
1:09:31
generosity do you give 10 bucks to every homeless person that
1:09:34
comes up to you or someone might say, I know you believe that
1:09:38
you're being generous. Here's another way to.
1:09:40
Look at generosity. Right.
1:09:41
So I want my beliefs to change. I hold them really loosely and I
1:09:44
don't. My wife and I believe different
1:09:46
things on a number of different issues our values are anchored
1:09:48
in. So we have a value of curiosity
1:09:50
in our house. Like tell me about that instead
1:09:54
of. You can't think that right?
1:09:55
And it is allows each other to be anchored in to go.
1:10:00
I'm going to read these five weird books about.
1:10:02
XY and Z and come back and we're going to talk about them because
1:10:05
I'm never going to be angry and upset and whatever.
1:10:07
And if she's like. We're really starting to believe
1:10:12
that. God's calling me to XY and Z
1:10:13
like man, let's let's go figure that out.
1:10:16
Let's be curious about that. Instead of in this house that
1:10:18
right so I always want these things to be moving and
1:10:20
breathing but our. Values are etched in there,
1:10:23
right? We will ride or die, we'll
1:10:24
figure. This thing out when you're like
1:10:26
dating and looking for someone to potentially be with for life,
1:10:31
you want to find that partner. Sounds like what you're saying
1:10:34
too can be applied there in terms of you can find someone
1:10:37
who you share a value, but how they do that value can look
1:10:41
very, very different. And that's OK.
1:10:44
Like you don't need to do it the same way.
1:10:46
And generosity might be an example.
1:10:47
But like I think about even my marriage, like, you know,
1:10:52
pro-life activism, like I've like children are dying.
1:10:55
This is like the human rights abuse of our day.
1:10:57
It's incredibly horrific. We need to save lives.
1:11:00
We can do it in all these different ways.
1:11:02
My husband would come into that problem and not go undercover in
1:11:05
a Planned Parenthood like I did. Like that's not going to be the
1:11:07
way he's going to do that, right?
1:11:09
He might work to 30 years on a particular policy and the policy
1:11:15
has changed and he exhales, right?
1:11:19
And it looks, it looks different.
1:11:21
And I think it's when people have a common cause and they
1:11:24
they, they start shooting each other.
1:11:28
Instead of saying, OK, I'm, I'm a frontline person, I'm a
1:11:31
sniper, I'm a Recon person, I'm a language person, I'm a, I'm a
1:11:34
decoder. Like everybody's working towards
1:11:36
the same thing, whatever that thing happens to be.
1:11:39
And it's having patience and peace for people who've got
1:11:41
different beliefs about what's the best way to do this thing.
1:11:44
And it's hard. So, So what are the red flags
1:11:46
then? What are the things that you're
1:11:48
like? These are the no go areas to
1:11:51
avoid marrying that person who is going to cheat on you or God
1:11:56
forbid, be abusive or just be someone who's just going to like
1:12:00
be inward and do that parallel life next to you and not really
1:12:03
go deep with you and you know, get curious with you and get
1:12:06
vulnerable with you and get honest with you or.
1:12:08
Say I'm sorry. Or say I'm.
1:12:09
Sorry, I mean I. Hear so many horror stories.
1:12:12
I mean, you hear more than I do because you're, you're a
1:12:14
professional Horror Story collector.
1:12:18
But how do you How do you divorce proof your marriage?
1:12:24
I'm going to say 2 two things. Beforehand.
1:12:26
Yeah, beforehand. Before you marry them.
1:12:28
Know this, that for all of human history, we got our values,
1:12:32
rightly or wrongly, from the tribe we were born into and the
1:12:37
faith tradition we were born into.
1:12:38
That's where our shared set of values came from.
1:12:41
This idea that you. Go find your values by yourself
1:12:43
Is brand new. So if that feels wonky and
1:12:46
weird, your body does not know how to do that at the nervous
1:12:48
system level because it has never had to do that in human
1:12:50
history. The second thing is I'm always
1:12:53
telling people your feelings are really important data point
1:12:56
they're important. They don't tell you the truth.
1:12:58
That's not their job, right. Similar like if I had a gallon
1:13:03
of milk, I wouldn't measure the length of this table in gallons.
1:13:07
The measurement of a gallon is great, but I would measure this
1:13:10
in in inches or feet, right and so a feeling feelings are good.
1:13:15
They just don't tell you the truth.
1:13:16
Their job is to keep you alive and to overreact to things
1:13:20
because your body just needs to survive till tomorrow.
1:13:22
If there's a little twig that snaps in the woods, I'm gonna
1:13:25
run screaming 'cause it might be a bearish.
1:13:27
Probably not, but it might be right, and I'd rather be wrong
1:13:30
and alive. And so I say that as a caveat,
1:13:34
too. If we're honest, most of us know
1:13:37
the. Red flag.
1:13:39
Most of us feel it like we just know this person's not safe.
1:13:43
We know. Or, if you think about it this
1:13:45
way, the question that saved my. Marriage, right?
1:13:47
The the, we sat down from each other and we're like, how do we
1:13:51
want this thing to feel when you get home?
1:13:52
And I was like, I want it to be warm and I wants to laugh.
1:13:55
I wants to have fun. And she was like, OK, then
1:13:57
here's what has to be true. You can't X&Y&Z and you've got
1:14:03
to stop. This and it was all true and
1:14:05
right. And so ask yourself.
1:14:07
Like. When I get home from being with
1:14:09
this person. Do I feel at peace and full of
1:14:12
laughter and full of joy and lightness?
1:14:15
Or do I exhale because I made it through another date right And.
1:14:19
So rely on that signal to say this person's safe.
1:14:22
I'm leaning in or they're not. And often the competing, the
1:14:26
competing feeling is I'm going to be alone forever and you're
1:14:29
not, You're not. And so that's your body not
1:14:31
telling you the truth, right? And so I'm telling you, I
1:14:34
realize I'm talking both sides out of my mouth, but most of
1:14:36
time we're around. People and we feel safe and we
1:14:39
feel alive or we feel defensive and I think that's a great when
1:14:46
you're out there trying to establish this by yourself,
1:14:48
which again, has never happened before.
1:14:51
Trust your gut, trust your gut and you can't, you can't cheat
1:14:57
proof. You can't 100% guarantee it,
1:14:59
right? And that's the risk.
1:15:01
That's the heartbreaking risk. And that's the promise.
1:15:03
Like and for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer,
1:15:06
like, we're in this. Yeah.
1:15:08
And we don't have, we don't have a thing for covenant anymore,
1:15:10
right. It's become it used to be
1:15:12
covenant, which is I'm signing my life to this.
1:15:15
So now it's a contract, right? And you know, attorneys, right,
1:15:19
a contract is does is written to be broken, right?
1:15:21
Here's how this will here's how we will separate things and
1:15:24
that's how we well. That's Tracy.
1:15:25
We talked, we were, we had on Zubi, who I really love, but you
1:15:28
know, he was, we were debating about prenups and he's like
1:15:31
about well, I like covenants, but we should also put in that
1:15:33
prenup just in case. And, you know, he has obviously
1:15:36
his arguments for it. And I respect, you know, that
1:15:39
people have differing opinions. But ultimately, I think that's
1:15:43
kind of, we're always kind of like looking at the horror
1:15:45
stories and the culture, looking at the bad stuff.
1:15:47
And it's like, OK, just in case, I'm going to have this caveat so
1:15:50
that if something goes SI can, you know, jump ship basically.
1:15:55
And it's it's. A.
1:15:56
The conditionalism of everything.
1:15:58
That's it. Everything's got a an off ramp
1:16:00
and. What does it look?
1:16:01
Like we fell out of love. On.
1:16:03
The lighter side, we fell out of love on the worst side, you
1:16:05
know, he, he's not giving me my needs, you know, so I'm going
1:16:08
to. That that's probably the most
1:16:10
like I really. Cultural statement is this
1:16:13
relationship ran its course. Ran its course.
1:16:15
We love each other. We will always.
1:16:16
One of y'all quit, one of you quit and that's fine or you both
1:16:18
quit but just be honest about it.
1:16:20
We stopped working on it and we stopped waking up every day
1:16:22
saying how can. I.
1:16:23
How can I love you today? Yeah, we didn't.
1:16:26
We made other things a priority. And so I'm gonna take ownership
1:16:28
of that. I'm gonna.
1:16:29
I'm gonna. Choose reality here, but don't
1:16:32
blame, don't blame the gas, the car, that you didn't put gas in
1:16:35
it, right? It's not the car's fault.
1:16:37
The car just did what the car is gonna do.
1:16:40
And so it's, it's just going back and being honest and
1:16:44
there's no, there's no 100% guarantee, which is, that's what
1:16:48
makes it so beautiful, I think. And it's what makes it
1:16:50
terrifying and scary, especially if you've been hurt before.
1:16:54
The back to the red flag stuff. I really like what you're saying
1:16:56
about just the gut check of the experience of the person.
1:16:59
Like, does this leave me in peace or does this leave me in
1:17:03
chaos? You know, afterwards, how do I
1:17:04
feel safe? Do I not?
1:17:05
How does he talk to the waitress?
1:17:07
How does he talk to the waitress?
1:17:08
How does he talk to his mother? How does he talk to, well, how
1:17:10
does he how does he tip right? Behavior's a language.
1:17:13
What's he telling the world about what he thinks about the
1:17:15
world? And you can see it when
1:17:17
somebody's walking into a restaurant.
1:17:20
Does he open the door for all three people?
1:17:21
Or do you just walk in right when when it comes to does this
1:17:27
guy go to church and does he give or does he roll his eyes?
1:17:29
Does he always complain about the pastor?
1:17:31
Every time they walk out the door is like, you get what?
1:17:36
I'm saying what about longevity, though, for like the length of
1:17:39
time to really test if this person's being sincere 'cause
1:17:43
people can put on a show they can play.
1:17:45
Yeah. And I mean, I remember like,
1:17:46
before I met my husband, like I dated, had a lot of different
1:17:49
dating experiences. And you know, there were
1:17:51
definitely guys that like, they were super charming, super
1:17:55
aggressive in the pursuit of all of me.
1:17:57
And like, you know, they were kind of like the love bombing
1:17:59
type stuff, but they weren't like super weird.
1:18:01
They were just, like, good at their shtick, whatever it was.
1:18:04
But over time, you kind of see like, this veneer of behavior.
1:18:09
There's sort of holes that start to appear in it, right?
1:18:12
You're like, oh, yeah, this is not always like the way.
1:18:15
But that takes time to test, right?
1:18:17
And especially when you're first getting to know someone and
1:18:19
there's an infatuation that can be involved, it can be hard to
1:18:22
have your head on straight. Oh.
1:18:24
Your body has UN unhooked your heads, right?
1:18:27
It doesn't want you thinking straight, right?
1:18:29
Yeah. So would you be like, OK, wait
1:18:31
one year before deciding for sure you want to I mean, but
1:18:34
then I see like my. Parents.
1:18:35
My parents got met and married within four months.
1:18:37
My parents and they're married now 40 plus years.
1:18:40
It's been a few years since I looked at the data but if I man
1:18:42
back in grad it's been several years but arranged marriages in
1:18:46
tradition and and what traditional western where
1:18:48
marriages had about the same if not arranged marriages in
1:18:51
longevity? Meaning they last.
1:18:54
Meaning people just woke up every day and decided we're
1:18:56
gonna we're married, we're gonna make the same work.
1:18:58
You can. You can go as far as a chosen.
1:19:00
Like if you date and choose someone, the success rate for a
1:19:03
traditional for a arranged marriage is as good.
1:19:06
I think it was. Better or as better?
1:19:07
I mean, it's probably better because in those communities
1:19:09
it's all about the family. We're all right.
1:19:10
We're in this together. These are my promises, and
1:19:12
there's better or worse to that, right?
1:19:14
There's people who are stuck in abusive situations and mess and
1:19:16
all that, but I think we lose the idea that.
1:19:19
Love's not a feeling, it's a decision that you make every day
1:19:22
of your life. And if you make that decision
1:19:25
every day in sickness and health and when things are good, and
1:19:29
especially the number of people who will say, I don't care if
1:19:33
you don't feel like it. Go to the gym, OK?
1:19:35
I don't care if you don't feel like it.
1:19:37
Empty the dishwasher. I don't care if you don't feel
1:19:39
like it. Stop before you go outside, even
1:19:41
if you're in a bad mood and put your wife's face in your hands
1:19:45
or grab your husband by the hand and look him in the eye and say,
1:19:48
I love you. How can I love you today?
1:19:49
I don't know if you don't feel like, I don't care if you feel
1:19:50
like it, right? And if we begin to treat it like
1:19:54
something that we practice something.
1:19:55
That we do on a regular. Basis you wake up and it's 30
1:19:58
years later and you've had some bad ups and downs.
1:20:01
My wife and I've had multiple. I always talk about one and she
1:20:06
joined me on stage. For one time and we're talking
1:20:09
to the audience and she's like that's.
1:20:11
Happened like four or five times like, oh, I guess we're going to
1:20:13
tell everybody all of it now, right?
1:20:14
But it's it's hard, right? And but you keep saying, OK, I'm
1:20:19
back in. We got to build something new.
1:20:20
I'm back in WE. Got how do you know when the
1:20:21
hard is normal hard versus abusive hard?
1:20:26
Because and I'm bringing up abuse because it's oh gosh, it's
1:20:29
such a topic, right? And unfortunately it's happening
1:20:32
a lot. And but then also, I think
1:20:35
sometimes do we classify things as abuse that aren't, or is it
1:20:39
just, there's so much abuse everywhere?
1:20:41
It's both hand. It's both hand, so there's the
1:20:48
abuse. Statistics are gnarly.
1:20:49
Yeah, and that's hurting people. Hurting other people, Yeah,
1:20:53
because a lot of people have been hurt, and it just
1:20:55
perpetuates this vicious cycle, Right?
1:20:56
Except if they experience abuse. Not that you're faded to that.
1:20:59
Yeah, well, and, and I have, like, I mean, I've, I've got
1:21:03
some pretty classic confrontations on my show.
1:21:05
Like, I don't care. Don't ever yell at your kids
1:21:08
again, ever. Right.
1:21:09
Don't yell at your wife again. Stop.
1:21:11
Right. I don't care.
1:21:11
What's happened to you from this point forward?
1:21:13
This is. This is.
1:21:14
Over, right. Yeah.
1:21:16
And so you do have agency. No matter what has happened.
1:21:18
You got agency. You can, you can make a choice.
1:21:20
And if you get that angry, leave.
1:21:22
If if you struggle with anger, and I've met, I've sat with
1:21:25
people who go black outrage, then it's your job and nobody
1:21:30
else has to do the work upstream so that that doesn't happen
1:21:33
again, right? And that's your, that's your,
1:21:35
that's. Your mission, right?
1:21:36
And my mission is I eat my feelings.
1:21:38
That's my. I have to deal with.
1:21:40
That on a regular basis, right? All of us have our stuff that we
1:21:43
lean into as a way to numb pain or hurt or historical stuff or
1:21:48
whatever. But when it comes to abuse, I
1:21:51
think that I always circle back to you got to have people that
1:21:54
you sit down and say, hey, I need to tell you all the truth
1:21:56
about. What you're going through?
1:21:58
Yeah, and if you have, this isn't helpful to someone who
1:22:02
found themselves alone. Person of being abused.
1:22:04
Like hey, is this, is this? Is this normal?
1:22:06
Is this normal? Yeah.
1:22:07
Is this is this safe? How do you be a good friend?
1:22:10
Like, you know, someone, whether they're dating or married and
1:22:13
maybe you're concerned that there's something going on.
1:22:17
You know, how do you do that without making the mistake of
1:22:20
accidentally being like, are you being abused?
1:22:23
And they're like, definitely not.
1:22:24
And maybe they're not. And like, you just blew up, you
1:22:27
know, you just blew up the friendship a bit, right 'cause.
1:22:29
So my world. That's an accusation right
1:22:31
there, right? Yeah.
1:22:32
And I think there's a way to be curious about it versus being
1:22:36
judgy, right? But even.
1:22:38
The curious. There's a way to say I care how
1:22:39
you say offensive. To someone, yeah.
1:22:41
But I can't. I can't.
1:22:42
I can't. Can't control that I can't
1:22:43
control. How you feel about it?
1:22:44
I can control other. I can't sleep at night knowing I
1:22:47
try to love you the best I could.
1:22:48
And it's not loving to leave things questions unasked, right?
1:22:54
But if I'm like, that's such a good line, you're being abused.
1:22:56
That's. Not loving to leave questions
1:22:57
unasked, yeah? That's a really good if you're
1:22:59
friends of mine, you know I'm gonna ask.
1:23:01
And my buddies are ruthless. How is your marriage?
1:23:05
What have you done this week for your wife?
1:23:06
Like I, there was a Bible study I went to years ago and the, the
1:23:11
head of the, the kind of was in his office.
1:23:13
He's an attorney and we would show up there really early once
1:23:15
a week and every week he would ask.
1:23:17
Go around the room to the men, sit at the table.
1:23:20
What's one thing you did for your wife last week?
1:23:22
And there was many a Sunday night that I did something nice
1:23:24
so that I have something to say on Monday.
1:23:26
Is that great? No.
1:23:28
But when I looked up a year later and I had this many things
1:23:31
that I'd begun to practice and now I was looking for ways that
1:23:35
I could serve my wife, he won, right?
1:23:38
That was a good set of And so we often that's not the right way
1:23:41
to do it. It doesn't.
1:23:43
Matter. Let's get there, right?
1:23:44
I don't care what you have to do to stop yelling at your kids.
1:23:46
Stop yelling at your kids, right?
1:23:48
So if you have people in your life that you're worried that
1:23:51
they're being hurt, ask if you have people in your life.
1:23:55
Or there's a dating relationship you're not thrilled about.
1:23:57
Like you're they're dating someone.
1:23:59
Maybe they're not being abused but you know this is not good
1:24:03
for them. Like that's your sense.
1:24:05
Well, a couple of my core, my core personal as a guy who has
1:24:08
hard conversations for a living, the way I do with my friends is
1:24:11
I only speak if I think I can be heard and I'm not going to sit
1:24:16
down and have a lecture conversation with somebody that
1:24:18
I don't know that well. I will tell somebody I don't,
1:24:22
this doesn't look right and you don't look safe.
1:24:24
And the moment you want to talk about I'm in your corner and I'm
1:24:27
going to put the ball in your court.
1:24:29
But I can't think about that. If you're one of my close
1:24:30
closest friends, I'm going to go get I'm going to get messy and
1:24:33
I'm going to risk the friendship for your safety because I love
1:24:36
you that much. And.
1:24:40
That's it. What what you're saying is
1:24:42
interesting because I think a lot of us have these loose
1:24:44
relationships. That's it, right?
1:24:46
And so you're not really in the position.
1:24:49
No one invited me in. No one asked for your.
1:24:51
Opinion. Yeah.
1:24:51
So how do you love that person? You listen.
1:24:55
So you, you make yourself available.
1:24:57
That's right. And you get curious, right?
1:24:59
And so it goes back like take but.
1:25:00
You don't go to the thing. You wait.
1:25:02
You wait, you give it. It depends on the severity.
1:25:04
It depends if I see somebody with a black eye or if I see
1:25:06
somebody or. You see someone who's like
1:25:09
practically suicidal. You don't be like I.
1:25:10
Don't know them well enough? Get involved in that 100%
1:25:12
hundred times out of 100. Yeah, so it's, it's all comes
1:25:14
back to judgment in the end, like a discernment of, OK, is
1:25:16
this an area 'cause I think a lot of people, it's tricky for
1:25:20
them. Like when do I know what to say?
1:25:21
I mean, I've, I've heard people say, you know, my niece is going
1:25:24
trans, right? My niece thinks she's a boy.
1:25:27
What do I do? Do I say to what do I say to my
1:25:29
sister? Do I say something to her?
1:25:31
Do I write her a letter? Like, you know, I don't know her
1:25:33
super well. She's off at.
1:25:34
College, you know? Yeah.
1:25:36
You know what I mean? And we want all these things to
1:25:38
be easy. They're not.
1:25:40
They're hard and they're messy and they're uncomfortable.
1:25:43
And you have to risk saying the wrong thing.
1:25:46
You just do right. And you have to risk saying
1:25:49
things like, I have to trust that, you know, that you love me
1:25:54
enough to know I'm not trying to be ugly.
1:25:56
I'm just trying. To say I love you.
1:25:57
Right and I'll go all the way back with my son like breakfast
1:26:02
every Tuesday with his with a 11 year olds not.
1:26:06
It's super exciting. Right.
1:26:08
And it's but you just do it every week and it's like boring,
1:26:11
boring, boring, boring. Hey, Dad.
1:26:14
Can I ask you something? Right.
1:26:15
And I've created a relational foundation to now it's OK and we
1:26:19
want to just swoop in on these big moments without doing the
1:26:23
work on the front end, right? It's like I want to go buy a
1:26:25
house, but I haven't never. I haven't been saving $100 a
1:26:28
month for the last. 14 years, right?
1:26:30
And so you have to do the work in the relationship.
1:26:33
If you're an aunt and a kid comes, I, I mean, as a
1:26:36
university administrator, I've had this conversation.
1:26:39
I can't count how many times a student sits down and says, I
1:26:42
think this they came because I built a foundation of like, I'm
1:26:48
a safe person. You can come ask and I'll be,
1:26:50
I'll shoot you straight, but I'm gonna shoot you straight, 'cause
1:26:51
I love you, not 'cause I'm trying to be mean to you.
1:26:53
If you're an aunt and suddenly your niece or nephew who you
1:26:56
have no relationship with pops up in a struggle with alcohol or
1:26:59
struggling with this, you have to establish a relationship or
1:27:04
otherwise you're just in the long list of grenade throwers
1:27:06
and just get in line cuz the social media's gonna tell them
1:27:09
how much. How awful they are the other.
1:27:11
Political parties What's? The other way around, though,
1:27:13
what if they're being affirmed, affirmed, affirmed in a behavior
1:27:16
that you're really concerned about and you have some rapport,
1:27:21
but you're maybe kind of there's some distance, not on purpose,
1:27:24
but you know, for whatever reason, they live in a different
1:27:25
town, different city. I'm going to tell you I love
1:27:28
you. I can't tell you on my show how
1:27:29
often I'm like, have you gone over there and talked to him in
1:27:31
person? We'll know.
1:27:33
How far away are they? Two hours, Four hours, dude, get
1:27:35
on a Southwest flight. What have you bought the last
1:27:37
five months that you couldn't have cobbled?
1:27:39
Go 300 bucks to go sit down with somebody.
1:27:40
You love and say I love you, right?
1:27:42
And again, it's like, I don't know, I'm nervous, dude, just
1:27:46
go. And if they do get offended, God
1:27:49
forbid. That's a choice they make.
1:27:50
And by the way, they're eighteen.
1:27:51
Yeah. Of.
1:27:52
Course right. There's a reason they can't buy
1:27:55
bullets. Maybe at 18 you can't, but you
1:27:57
can't buy beer. You're 18 right.
1:28:00
We've all, as a society, have been like.
1:28:02
Your brain's not fully together yet, so as a society we're all
1:28:06
saying you can't do these things yet.
1:28:08
And but yet we get our feelings hurt when a 20 year old's mad at
1:28:11
us. They're 20.
1:28:12
Of course we're supposed to. Well, I feel like a lot of 30s
1:28:15
are the new 20 today. Fair enough.
1:28:17
Yeah. Yeah.
1:28:17
I just I I can't own I. You can't own other people's
1:28:21
offense. And, and in this job especially,
1:28:26
it's become real this morning, somebody just.
1:28:30
Bombed my Instagram account with something.
1:28:32
What? Does that mean they were just
1:28:34
sent the most ugly message? Just gnarly and I don't check it
1:28:38
very often and I did. For I'm sitting in a hotel room
1:28:41
this morning by myself. I have no kids, no family and
1:28:43
I'm checking it. It was just, it broke my heart
1:28:47
because. Like you're, you're such a
1:28:49
screwball. How dare you give this
1:28:51
ridiculous advice. Kind of.
1:28:51
Stuff. No, I think, I think I couldn't
1:28:53
even remember, but somewhere I was being sarcastic about and it
1:28:57
was about you're making fun of single people.
1:28:59
You're making fun of people without.
1:29:00
Money. There's a little bit of truth in
1:29:01
there. You're like, yeah, like, I don't
1:29:03
know about you, but for me, with the 'cause I read my comments, I
1:29:05
try to read that many ways. I think.
1:29:07
I mean, different people. I respected if you don't, but
1:29:09
sometimes it's like, yeah, maybe I could have been a little
1:29:12
better there. I always want to know, yeah, I
1:29:13
always want to know compassion. Well, and unfortunately like if
1:29:17
you have an hour show sarcasm clipped in a 5 second social
1:29:21
media reel or 10 second doesn't come across.
1:29:25
But the heart like my whole mission in life is to sit with
1:29:27
hurting people. And if you took away an
1:29:30
interaction with me that look like I was making fun of hurting
1:29:32
people, like that's the whole thing I'm for.
1:29:35
Right. And so it still breaks my heart
1:29:38
and. I didn't mean that.
1:29:41
Like that, I never was in any sort of intention.
1:29:43
And so I can't own that. And if it's like I, I will never
1:29:46
listen to anything. I've been with you for five
1:29:48
years, and if all of that is wiped away because of this one
1:29:52
thing, you got other stuff going on and I love you and I wish you
1:29:55
the absolute best. I hope you find somebody that
1:29:57
made your peace. I can't carry that, right?
1:29:59
If somebody reaches out and says, dude, I've been listening
1:30:01
to your show for four years and then I heard.
1:30:03
This clip this did not jive. That's a fair question and I
1:30:08
hope. People ask that.
1:30:09
Question, I love that, right? That's a good question to ask
1:30:12
and say I would ask my wife that question, ask my son that
1:30:15
question, right? Like your integrity, integrity,
1:30:17
integrity. Tell me about this this.
1:30:19
Looks like you just stole something.
1:30:21
Nah, that I didn't, right. I'm going to give you an I'm
1:30:23
going to give you an like a like an opportunity to talk about it.
1:30:26
So I think those are all fair. But I, my daughter looked at me.
1:30:31
She's 8 and she is a human hurricane.
1:30:32
She's amazing. But I said something.
1:30:35
About Taylor Swift the other day.
1:30:37
And she turned and it was for dramatic effect.
1:30:40
But she's like. I'm so offended and or you have.
1:30:45
Offended me and I told her I was like I don't have that power.
1:30:49
And I just want her to know. Like you have body autonomy and
1:30:53
you have soul autonomy. You get to decide.
1:30:55
It hurts your feelings, kid and. Like I still don't like Taylor.
1:30:58
Swift, I don't know, kind of, but but yeah, she's kind of
1:31:02
awesome. But like, but you get to, she
1:31:05
gets to decide that, right? And the more we realize, oh,
1:31:08
that's a choice, it's an option. That's good cause a lot of
1:31:12
people it's like offense is is a sport.
1:31:14
Like how offended can we get over stuff?
1:31:18
And I, I've given that power to like four or five people in my
1:31:21
life. That's about it.
1:31:22
They can take away my livelihood or they can frustrate me, make
1:31:25
me upset. They can make me angry.
1:31:27
Just can't hurt me because I've given that to my wife and three
1:31:30
or four other men in my life. That's it.
1:31:32
And that's, I'm gonna, I'll accept that.
1:31:33
All right. That's good.
1:31:35
Yeah. All right.
1:31:36
For the last thing, for the dating people or the people
1:31:39
trying to divorce proof their marriage, is there anything like
1:31:43
questions you recommend you ask or is there some sort of
1:31:48
community vetting system that you recommend you have in place?
1:31:52
I mean, I, I bring that up because like one of the things
1:31:55
we did before getting married is we did have this like 110
1:31:58
questions that we explored together to really like get deep
1:32:02
with. Each other.
1:32:03
Yeah, basically it was called like the focus test and it went
1:32:05
really deep on stuff. We were already mostly aligned
1:32:08
on stuff, but it unearthed things.
1:32:10
And then the community thing is so important.
1:32:12
Like you got to meet the family, you got to meet the friends,
1:32:13
like who? Like who is this person in these
1:32:16
other environments, right? And I think, I think that's
1:32:20
important all the way around. And I learned some things about
1:32:23
my wife when I brought her home to my like, to my oldest friends
1:32:27
on the planet. Not great humans, but guys are
1:32:31
trusted. And yeah, it was important for
1:32:35
her to see all. The way around, right?
1:32:37
What? Would be like a few things you'd
1:32:39
recommend to close this out here on the dating stuff like I think
1:32:42
I. Think premarital counseling is
1:32:43
good? I think having some sort of
1:32:46
third party to sit down and ask questions like what do you
1:32:48
believe about money? What do you believe?
1:32:50
About fidelity, what do you believe about?
1:32:54
What are your no goes like? Like having those questions and
1:32:56
putting on the table? Who's going to pay the bill
1:32:59
right? Who's actually gonna hit send on
1:33:01
the electric bill? And it's amazing how both be
1:33:03
like, well, I'm going to. Y'all should talk about that.
1:33:06
Right. Well, and also like, do you like
1:33:07
for women? Like do you expect me to work
1:33:09
when we have kits? Well, but I also think that's a
1:33:12
question. Or do you want me to?
1:33:14
I think that's a question that you can ask.
1:33:16
You can answer on the front end, but it's hard.
1:33:19
Well, of course, but like expectation wise, it's.
1:33:21
Good to know the the words I like to use are.
1:33:24
What's the picture in your head? The picture Cause of course life
1:33:26
happens to you. That's right, you might need to
1:33:28
work there like life happens to you.
1:33:30
Yeah. And it's it's, it's a real
1:33:31
common thing is somebody will say like, Hey, it's a big deal
1:33:35
to me if we get married that like I want my kids to have a
1:33:37
stay at home mom. Sometimes that's said, like my
1:33:42
little list. I made when I was 18.
1:33:44
That's what I think right now, but I have no, I have no
1:33:47
understanding of what that reality will look like when we
1:33:48
have kids. Or if we have kids.
1:33:51
What the question I love is what's your picture of we have
1:33:54
two little kids what's the. World look like and it's like,
1:33:57
oh this and this and this. So one of these you might go try
1:34:00
to live into this expectation that I didn't really have.
1:34:02
I said something seven years ago versus all right, What's this
1:34:06
picture look like now? What's this picture?
1:34:08
Look like this year. And for divorce proofing, my
1:34:10
wife and I go. Every year we get away and just
1:34:13
we're pretty honest, pretty brutally honest, like.
1:34:16
We made. Here's our financial.
1:34:17
Goals like did we make it like and last year my wife said you
1:34:21
spend too much. She told me that like she's
1:34:23
like, you spend too much. And I know it's coming from a
1:34:25
place of scarcity and, and when you're a kid, like I know it,
1:34:29
but we have these goals. And by the way, these goals you
1:34:31
put on the table. And I'm trying to right.
1:34:35
And so I'm not spending here. I'm not spending here.
1:34:37
And when you do this, it makes me feel less right.
1:34:39
So you get to the, you drill down.
1:34:41
Those are important conversations to have.
1:34:43
And what are some things you're seeing in me, how I'm acting?
1:34:47
How, what kind of dad am I being?
1:34:48
And I'm going to be a big boy. I need to hear it.
1:34:51
And or what kind of mom am I being?
1:34:55
And let's let's just be honest with each other.
1:34:58
And that takes a year's worth of.
1:34:59
Relational context, before you can have those kind of hard
1:35:02
conversations, 'cause if you just start throwing grenades,
1:35:04
man, she has to defend herself and I've got to defend myself
1:35:07
and now we're off in a not good place.
1:35:11
I think at the end of the day, you have to be willing when
1:35:14
you're dating. It's.
1:35:16
Hard. I think you have to be willing
1:35:18
to say with what I'm seeing and what I'm feeling and
1:35:21
experiencing, this isn't going to work.
1:35:23
And I think most people are so desperate to backfill what they
1:35:26
want to happen with data that's going to prove their point,
1:35:30
right? Meaning you got to be willing to
1:35:33
walk away. Yeah.
1:35:34
And some people, they can't. They just feel they can't.
1:35:37
I'm two years in, they think it's a mutual fund.
1:35:40
I've invested this much money into it.
1:35:41
We've got to see it through. And you got to be willing to say
1:35:45
this. This was this was fun.
1:35:47
We had a great time. I still care about you.
1:35:49
It's just because it hurts doesn't mean it's not the right
1:35:51
thing. And sometimes the opposite is
1:35:54
true. Here's a good example.
1:35:56
I was a hot head, like a loudmouth idiot.
1:36:00
And I was always looking for trouble, especially when I was
1:36:03
in College in Dayton. And I thought that made me tough
1:36:07
and I thought that made my wife feel safe.
1:36:09
And it didn't. It made her feel unsafe.
1:36:12
But when she would say it's time to go, I'd always go.
1:36:17
And years later when I was like. How did you date me?
1:36:21
I was so loud. I was so like always, like I was
1:36:25
just such an idiot and she said. Because it wasn't the first
1:36:29
thing. It was always the second thing.
1:36:30
And when I would say, I think this is not a safe place for me,
1:36:34
I'd like you to. You always defaulted to my
1:36:36
safety over your ego. And she goes, that meant you
1:36:39
were safe. That was safe for me.
1:36:41
You would you would be willing. To put your ego aside and walk
1:36:43
out the door with me and make sure I got home safe.
1:36:45
And that so that was beneath. The.
1:36:49
Her her West TX like get him John right beneath that was no
1:36:54
your default will be to keep me safe.
1:36:56
But she had to ask for it. She had asked for it and but she
1:36:58
was OK asking. For it, it wasn't an it wasn't a
1:37:00
fantasy like oh, but if I asked him to go, he would he.
1:37:04
Would leave have? You ever asked right or if he.
1:37:08
Asks back to the game theory stuff like she had a boundary
1:37:11
and she was willing to be open about her boundary and you met
1:37:14
her where she was at with her boundary and you guys built this
1:37:16
beautiful life together. But if she had never asked,
1:37:18
you'd be like, oh, I just do something so unsafe with him.
1:37:20
And you're like and they're like, OK, this is this
1:37:22
relationship is clearly not working.
1:37:24
Maybe it would have worked. But one of her anchors was one
1:37:26
of her values was I deserve to be safe and her brother and her
1:37:30
dad taught. Her that and and that she's
1:37:31
willing to ask for. And her church so some guy was
1:37:34
not was not going to was it was going to fit into that.
1:37:37
Value. With when I'm with you 'cause.
1:37:39
I think so many women and men are, we're afraid to ask.
1:37:42
We're kind of afraid to, you know, I mean, create a boundary,
1:37:46
yes, but it's one thing to create a boundary.
1:37:48
Just be like, OK, I'm out. Like, oh, I don't like this
1:37:50
behavior, so I'm out. Or I don't like this detail, so
1:37:52
I'm out instead of like, well, let's engage the detail.
1:37:54
Is this a non negotiable for you?
1:37:56
You know, you, you, you love this way of lifestyle, but it
1:37:59
really rubs on me the wrong way. Can we work through this right?
1:38:03
Like go and see? Can we work together on this?
1:38:05
Or I'm a 19 year old loudmouth idiot.
1:38:07
And so if, if I believe that the way to show her that she's safe
1:38:12
is to try to fight everybody and she likes me, it's a gift to me
1:38:18
if she has that one conversation that says, hey, that doesn't
1:38:20
make me feel safe. What makes me feel safe 'cause
1:38:22
if I asked you to leave, that we leave.
1:38:24
Give me a chance, right? Give me a chance.
1:38:26
But that means she has to have enough confidence to speak her
1:38:28
needs out loud. That's why, like they say some
1:38:30
of the best advice I've received.
1:38:31
I'm going to botch the way this was said, but basically is two
1:38:35
people can make it work. Any two people can make it work
1:38:37
if they're willing to try towards the same direction.
1:38:40
Like and. You know, like you can do.
1:38:42
It. Yeah, yeah.
1:38:43
There's all, I mean, obviously like there's some prohibitive
1:38:46
behavior of those like don't try to make it work if the person's
1:38:49
in this horrible space, you know, or whatever.
1:38:51
But ultimately like 2 generally oriented the right direction.
1:38:55
People can make it work if they want to and if they try.
1:39:00
Like take two. Questions you gotta try.
1:39:02
The two questions that changed. My marriage were transformed at
1:39:04
worse. What's your picture of this look
1:39:06
like? And how can I love you today?
1:39:09
The the picture one, we may have talked about this before, but
1:39:14
hey, we're going to visit, we're going to see my parents.
1:39:15
We're going to drive 3 hours to visit my parents.
1:39:18
My picture of that trip is I'm going to get there and get the
1:39:21
car loaded. And I'm going fishing.
1:39:23
I'm going to. I cause more problems around all
1:39:26
this. Then I help, I'm going to go
1:39:27
fishing. Her picture is we're all going
1:39:29
to sit around in the fire and we're all going to tell stories.
1:39:32
I'm trying to help, she's trying to help.
1:39:35
And we end up on the other side of and then she's mad and I can
1:39:39
feel her mad and I'm mad that she's mad.
1:39:42
And all of it was, hey, what's your picture of this trip to
1:39:44
your parents house? Like, hey, I just want you to
1:39:46
stay. Inside and just be with us.
1:39:47
Got it. I can sing and dance for a
1:39:49
couple hours. So good.
1:39:50
And hey, what's your picture for this?
1:39:52
I I'm going to drop off for them.
1:39:54
I'm going fishing. OK, I can make that.
1:39:56
I can, I can make that work. But it's us.
1:39:58
We're both saying visit mom and dad's.
1:40:00
We're using the same words. But what's what's the picture?
1:40:03
Yeah. What's the picture for tonight's
1:40:04
date? What's the picture for?
1:40:07
My wife gave me. A.
1:40:09
The list of questions to not ask.
1:40:11
During our second when our daughter was born, 'cause I was
1:40:14
asking all kind of questions when our son, when she was in
1:40:16
labor with her son. And so she gave me the playlist
1:40:18
for the hospital and the this and the don't ask.
1:40:22
Am I hurting? Don't ask, am I is or am I doing
1:40:25
OK? Don't ask like all these
1:40:26
questions, she's like, they're not helpful.
1:40:28
They're more annoying, right? I know you love me.
1:40:30
I know you just be there and look alright.
1:40:33
And so those kind of things were super.
1:40:34
Helpful, right? But that was aligning.
1:40:36
Here's the picture. I have in my head for this how
1:40:39
this is going to. Go and I get to live into that.
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1:41:24
Thanks, John. Such good, you're awesome.
1:41:26
Where? Can where can people find your
1:41:28
stuff? On Everywhere on the Internet,
1:41:31
yeah, Doctor John Deloney on online The Doctor John Deloney
1:41:34
Show and then. Yeah, at John Deloney on the
1:41:38
Internet. And you've got a book out.
1:41:39
Yes, you always have a book out right.
1:41:41
I'm taking a right, I'm taking a break from that.
1:41:43
OK? There's too many books in too
1:41:45
many years. What's?
1:41:46
The latest book. Building an Onyx Just live.
1:41:48
Yeah, I think I. Have that one.
1:41:49
Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much for joining
1:41:51
the. Show thanks for your
1:41:52
hospitality, you have a great team.
1:41:53
Thank you, I know we do. We really are blessed.
1:41:56
Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Lila Rose
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