Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E39: The Truth about IVF, Surrogacy and Adoption w/ Katy Faust

Transcript

E39: The Truth about IVF, Surrogacy and Adoption w/ Katy Faust · The Lila Rose Show

0:00
IVF is not about babies. IVF is about on demand designer
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babies shipped worldwide. What is the rule for children's
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rights? There is one rule.
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The rule is adults do hard things for kids.
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If you are forcing a child to sacrifice for you, you are
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violating the rights of the child and that is where every
0:16
adult should stand in the way. One of the most painful things
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in a child's life is if they've lost their mom or dad.
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Surrogacy splices what should be one woman, a mother, into 3
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purchasable and optional women. So excited today to have on
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Katie Faust on the podcast, who is the founder of the
0:36
organization Them Before Us and the author of the book Them
0:39
Before Us and has done some amazingly important work on
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children's rights, which don't get talked about enough.
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And we're going to deep dive this.
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We're going to go through some controversial topics, obviously
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the fight for life abortion, where adults desires and needs
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are usually put before children and killing them.
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But then also when it comes to IVF and surrogacy, reproductive
1:04
technologies and even what is the ethical approach to
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adoption. So, so excited to have you on
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Katie. Thanks for joining the.
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Podcast. It is my pleasure, it's my joy.
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It's very nice to have have a chance to have a conversation
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with you with a few friends. So, Katie, tell me a little bit
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more about your background and about them before us.
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Katie, fast background, I I used to work at the largest Chinese
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adoption agency in the world after my husband and I got
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married. So I've had a heart for kids for
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a long, long time. My husband and I have been doing
1:36
youth ministry and now he is the senior pastor of our church.
1:39
We live in Seattle. We've got 4 incredible
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teenagers. I'm very passionate about like
1:45
parenting and marriage and all of that, but I'm super
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agreeable. Very, very nice like to my
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friends don't like to confront unless unless you tread on the
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rights of children, unless an adult starts asking a child to
2:01
sacrifice their rights and well-being so adults can live as
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they please. And that is where you go a
2:07
little too far. And anyway, so that happened for
2:10
me. I think that that a lot of us
2:12
have sort of a red pill moment where we look at a crazy culture
2:15
and go, OK, now, now we fight, right?
2:20
Like a lot of us for a long time just went along with what
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culture was doing. But many of us over the last 10
2:26
years or so have had something that has forced us to like, it's
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awaken a bit of a political animal in many of us where we
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said, and now I have to be engaged.
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So for me, that moment was the gay marriage debate.
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That was the first time that I really heard the culture
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singing, you know, really demonizing not just you're
2:44
wrong, but like you're evil, you're bigoted, you're hateful,
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you're phobic if you don't agree with this.
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Never before in our species radical proposal that two men or
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two women can be married. And the thing that two things
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pushed me over the line. Number one was this idea that
3:02
you hated gays if you believed in traditional marriage.
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And that's garbage because everybody I know who supports
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traditional marriage also loves their gay family and friends.
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That's certainly the case for me.
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My mom has been in a relationship with her female
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partner for 35 years, and they've been a part of my
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childhood, my adolescence, you know, my adulthood, my
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children's lives. I, my mom is like my top.
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I mean, she's, we're just very, very, very close.
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And this idea that animus and phobia and hatred, you know,
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contributes to this idea that children to have a mother and
3:36
father is just insane. The other big thing that pushed
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me over the line was this idea that was used to push gay
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marriage and that kids don't care if they have two moms or
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two dads. But functionally, what that
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means is kids don't care if they've lost their mom or dad.
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And I've done enough work with kids, whether it's in youth
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ministry, high school ministry, college ministry, middle school
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work, adoption work, to know that one of the most painful
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things in a child's life is if they've lost their mom or dad,
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even if the adults in their life are striving to mend that wound.
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And so that was what got me from the place of being more of a
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grace giver to a truth teller, where I said, if you're going to
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weaponize the pain of children to advance a radical agenda,
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you're going to have to go through me.
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So that's why I started to write and then eventually founded the
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nonprofit Then Before Us, which looks at every marriage and
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family issue from the perspective of children's right
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to their mother and father. So awesome.
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And I know folks listening are already getting inspired because
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we see already this playing out in so many parts of our society,
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from our schools to our politics.
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We see children not being considered 1st and what they
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really need. It's about what do the adults
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want? And then we make all these
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rationalizations for how the kids are going to be just fine.
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So let's start with one of the things you said, which is so
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interesting, which is, you know, you first got galvanized and you
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have a mother who's in a same sex relationship.
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So it's not like this is boring to you, but you first got
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galvanized around the gay marriage debate, this idea that
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children don't need a mother and a father.
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They are fine with two moms are fine with two dads.
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You know, I remember seeing this a lot growing up, you know,
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especially at UCLA, friends of mine, and that the the debate
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was pretty hot. This was a little over maybe a
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decade and a half ago now in California after Prop 8, which
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would have which did Californian said we want marriage between a
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man and a woman. That's what we want for the
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state. And then political powers try to
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override that, I think unconstitutionally at the time.
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So that's a that's a whole other whole other thing.
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But this idea that children are fine, just as fine as anyone
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else if they have parents of the same sex, 2 moms or two dads.
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First of all, let's just talk about the reality.
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It's impossible to have two by moms biologically, right, Our
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two dads biologically. So like you said, they're they
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actually are missing a biological parent.
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Tell me more about the research on that, Katie, because there
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are a lot of advocates for same sex parenting, quite frankly,
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not just marriage, but parenting who say, well, all the studies
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prove that those kids are just the fine or even better.
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Some will, some even say then kids with their own mom and dad.
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Yeah, let's lay the foundation here a little bit because that's
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very, very helpful. I think that you and I are
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hopefully going to hit a lot of these different challenging
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topics, whether it's gay parenting, surrogacy, third
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party reproduction, what is the point of adoption, all of these
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different things. And actually, if you understand
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the fundamentals of who children are and what they need, most of
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these questions answer themselves.
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So let's just talk about children's rights to their
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mother and father. We largely, I think your
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audience and conservatives and Christians generally, understand
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that children have a right to life, even if it's not
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recognized by the civil government.
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We are arguing upon the natural law perspective that they have a
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natural right to life. This is something that will not
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change depending on what country they live in, what time frame
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they live in, and even what the laws say.
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These simply there is a natural fundamental right children have
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to life. The same metric that we use to
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determine whether or not children have a right to life
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can also be applied to children's right to be known and
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loved by the two people responsible for their existence.
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And what we see is if that right was protected and defended.
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We solve nearly every social issue that we are facing today
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because we look at things like homelessness, child poverty,
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teen pregnancy, teen suicide, dropout rates, and all of them
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have something in common. And that is that they are over
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represented by children who have lost a relationship with their
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mother or father, right? Disproportionately fatherless
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children are at risk. 90% of homeless youth didn't have a
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dad, 71% of kids who commit suicide, 71% of kids who drop
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out of high school, 63% of girls who are teen moms did not have a
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dad growing up. And so Can you imagine the power
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of defending this child right to their mom and dad?
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So why? The question is like, why does
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this fundamental child right have so much social power?
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And it's for three reasons #1A child's own mother and father
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are statistically, and I say this with a full force of
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decades of social science research under my belt,
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statistically, those adults are the most connected to,
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protective of, and invested in children.
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OK, this idea that love makes a family, right, or the if the
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adults are happy, the kids will be happy is a lie, right?
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What it takes to make sure that kids are safe and happy and safe
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and loved is actually statistically being raised by
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their own biological mother and father.
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And we will get to adoption shortly because as an adoptive
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mom, I also have opinions and a perspective on this.
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But biologically, those two people are statistically the
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safest adults in a child's life. But like you said, there's all
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of these sort of cultural mantras that we use.
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Like the kids will be fine. And if the adults are happy,
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they get and love makes a family and they're going to be fine.
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And there's no difference in all of that.
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Like if that was the case, if love makes a family and the
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adults are happy, the kids will be happy.
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If biology doesn't matter, then a child who is being raised by
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their mother and her cohabiting boyfriend would be doing great
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because they've got 2 parents, they've got a mother and father
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figure. The adults are happy, right?
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The adults love each other. But your audience can just do a
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quick Google search right now. Google the words mother's
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boyfriend. OK.
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And I want you to take a look at that.
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Pause the podcast if you need to search through those pages a
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little while. And then I want you to come back
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because what you saw is 10s of thousands of pages of the most
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horrific, disturbing cases of child abuse and phylicide that
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would be child homicide that you're ever going to read on the
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Internet. Because the reality is that when
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it comes to child safety and well-being, biology is one of
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the greatest predictors of child safety and thriving.
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And statistically, the most risky person in a child's life
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is an unrelated man living in their home, left to care for the
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child alone. So the number one thing you have
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to get understand is that in the parent child relationship, there
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are exceptions. There are terrible, exceptional,
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horrible abuse of biological parents.
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But overwhelmingly when children suffer abuse in the home it is
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it is at the hands of an unrelated adult.
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So defending children's rights to their mother and father
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grants them the household where they are most likely to be safe
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and loved #2 only those two adults grant children something
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that they crave, and that is their biological identity.
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It is very hard for children to answer the question, who am I if
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they cannot answer the question, who's am I?
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And that is why you see these, you know, in all of these, like
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very poor boroughs of New York, you are seeing these, like,
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trucks that roll into the neighborhood.
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They're like, who's my daddy trucks?
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And you can get a quick DNA test to find out who your daddy is,
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right? In all these places where these
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kids have no idea who their father is and yet they want to
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know. They want to know.
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And we know because since 1960 when the majority of adoptions
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were closed adoptions, we now have 95% of adoptions in the
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United States has open adoptions.
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Because even if children can't be raised by their first family,
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they benefit from as much information in connection with
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their first family as possible. And now we've got waves and
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waves of children created through a third party, someone
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else's sperm or someone else's egg, who are scouring the
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Internet and using 23 andme DNA test to find who their
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biological parent is, who many of them have been told, well,
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that's that's nobody. He doesn't matter to you, but
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those, those children can only get something from that man or
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that woman that they cannot get from the man or woman raising
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them. And that is the answer to who am
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I? So we can stabilize the identity
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of an awful lot of children if they are raised and known and
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loved by both parents. And finally, the incredible
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thing about defending children's right to the two people that are
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responsible for their being is you will get the perfect gender
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balance in the home 100% of the time.
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And men and women are different. And those differences play out,
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I would say the most dramatically in the theater of
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the home. And they do so in complementary
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ways. You know, dads emphasize and
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develop kids gross motor skills. Moms emphasize and develop kids
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fine motor skills. Dads talk to kids with big words
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like they talk to their buddies and their Co workers.
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And moms simplify their language right down to where the child is
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and. It's that you're not allowed to
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say this today. I mean, what you're just saying,
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you know, men and women are different.
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This is like the the big faux pas today to dare to say there
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is a difference. And at the same time, we all
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know there is a difference and the data shows that there's a
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difference. But what you're describing is,
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is the beauty of that difference.
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You know, it's not a bad difference.
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These are good differences and their benefit for children.
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Yeah, they are. And it's undeniable, it's
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self-evident, it's irrefutable. And if you're looking at well
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called data, it is absolutely ironclad when you're talking
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about statistical proof. Now you brought up the good
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question of, well, what about same sex parents, right?
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And there was a rush of studies, especially leading up to a
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burger fell in 2015, the case that legalized gay marriage
13:57
across the country, claiming that children raised by two moms
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or two dads fared no different. Right.
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They're just fine. But that actually is like one of
14:08
the greatest sociological miracles ever.
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Because when you look at children who were raised, who
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were abandoned, you know, and subsequently adopted by a mother
14:19
and father. Or who experienced a divorce and
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then were subsequently raised in a step family situation with a
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mother and father. Or whose parent died and then
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their mother or father remarried.
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Or who were created through sperm or egg donation and then
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raised by a heterosexual couple. Right.
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And all of those four ways that children experience parental
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loss, but then were raised by a heterosexual couple, none of
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those kids fared as well as the children who are raised by their
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own biological mother and father, even though they have
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both maternal and paternal love. So it's fascinating that when
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you suddenly study gay parenting, where the only way a
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child can arrive in that household is through death,
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divorce, abandonment and subsequent adoption or third
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party reproduction, that magically those kids are faring
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just as well, even though they're always starved of
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maternal or paternal love. Like, there's something fishy
15:18
going on there. And what's fishy is research
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bias. You know, when you drill down
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into the research methodologies of those no different studies,
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you see it's garbage. It's absolute garbage.
15:30
It is just political bias wrapped up in research.
15:33
So yeah, the kids, the kids are not all right.
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I explained that a little more. I I've heard this before, that
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these studies are highly biased, unreliable, inconsistent, that
15:43
they're not well done, but they're still touted, you know,
15:47
by advocates of same sex adoption that like, hey, you
15:49
know, what's what's the big deal?
15:50
You're just, you're just a homophobe.
15:52
You know, you're biased against us.
15:53
That's why you're saying this. Can you share a little more
15:55
about how these studies are flawed?
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It's such an important issue because this lie has gone out so
16:01
far and so fast that we spend the first half, we spend an
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entire chapter in our book. We have chapter 6.
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It's all about same sex parenting.
16:09
The first half is devoted to analyzing the data.
16:13
Why are these, why are these studies so wrong?
16:16
Why did they get it so backwards?
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And the answer is you've got some sort of like bold standards
16:21
when it comes to social science research, right?
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There is some subjectivity involved, but generally, if you
16:26
want to come out with results that can be extrapolated to the
16:31
wider population, you're going to want a few things #1 you're
16:35
going to want the participants to be chosen at random, right?
16:38
It doesn't really do a whole lot if you say, I want to evaluate
16:42
how good evangelical couples are at raising kids, and then you go
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directly to a Baptist Church and say, hey, you guys, we're doing
16:47
a study on whether or not Baptists raise great kids.
16:50
Who would like to volunteer for this study, right?
16:53
No, you want to capture not just those results by people that
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volunteer. And then let's just take this
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Baptist example, right? What the researchers did is they
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went to the church. They said the purpose of this
17:06
study is that if we get these certain results, Baptists are
17:10
going to get specific tax breaks.
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And we want you to tell us how you think your children are
17:16
doing. We're not going to measure their
17:17
grades, their health, their, you know, incidents of ADHD or
17:21
whether or not they're medicated.
17:23
We are just going to say, how do you think your kids are doing?
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Are they healthy? Are they happy?
17:28
Are they academically excelling? And then we're not going to have
17:31
any adequate control groups. We're not going to like pair you
17:34
up and evaluate you against the Methodists down the street,
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right? We're just going to like take
17:39
you as an isolated, you know, and then we're going to study
17:42
you over a very short period of time.
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Just we'll have like one or two weeks of, you know, observation
17:47
and then we're done. A good study would a good study
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would look at find the children of the Baptist at random would
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not let those kids know what the purpose of the study was for
17:59
evaluate their actual rates of depression or suicide or
18:03
dropouts or whatever like risk factors they're evaluating.
18:07
They would compare them to not just Methodists, but a variety
18:10
of other denomination, you know, kids.
18:13
They would study the same group over a long period of time.
18:18
It wouldn't just be what the adults say, right?
18:20
And in essence, that is generally the methodology that
18:23
these same sex, no different studies used to come up with
18:27
this conclusion. That these kids who have always
18:30
lost a biological parent always have the disadvantage of living
18:33
with an unrelated adult who always suffered the traumatic
18:36
loss of one parent, who are always starved of the
18:39
developmental benefits of either a male parent or a female
18:42
parent. Somehow they're no different.
18:46
I mean, once you start thinking about it, it is very obvious,
18:52
but it was politically convenient.
18:56
I think that's such an important point that political convenience
18:59
and the power of quite frankly, an activist group was basically
19:05
said your common sense, you know, your everyday experience
19:10
doesn't matter here. And it and it doesn't, it
19:12
doesn't really, it's not relevant at the topic at hand.
19:14
And if you dare to have the common sense to say, yes,
19:17
children deserve mothers and children deserve a mother and a
19:20
father, then you're somehow bigoted.
19:22
And so the problem is your your everyday common sense of being
19:25
like, yeah, kids need a mom and a dad is suddenly quieted
19:29
dramatically because of accusations, you know,
19:32
passionate, full throated accusations of saying, well, if
19:35
you dare to say the obvious, you know, if you dare to state the
19:39
obvious, then you are a homophobe.
19:42
You're a transphobe. You're a you're a phobe, which
19:45
is so it's so tragic because everyday people are kind of
19:49
silenced by that. Katie, I'm sure you've run into
19:50
This is why your work is so important.
19:52
And they're like, OK, well, I don't want to really say
19:54
anything because I don't want to look like a bad guy, you know?
19:58
And I'm busy living my life, so I'm not going to kind of stick
20:00
my neck out for these other kids out there 'cause I'm sure
20:02
they're going to be fine, you know?
20:04
So how big of a deal is this? And so we've gotten it to the
20:07
point where. In the state of California,
20:10
there is legislation now that is probably going to go to the
20:14
governor and he'll sign it because Gavin Newsom is
20:15
completely insane. I, I think.
20:18
And it's, it's saying that if you're as a man, like the same
20:22
gay man and you're in a, you know, gay marriage, then the
20:25
state of California is going to pay for you to rent the body of
20:28
a woman because you deserve children.
20:30
That you're going to be considered technically infertile
20:32
because you're not able to naturally bring children to the
20:35
world. That's the insanity to where
20:37
we've gotten now. You're a gay man.
20:39
You're owed a child a motherless child by default.
20:43
So first of all let me say on the whole anti-gay accusation, I
20:48
understand why it's paralyzing because it paralyzed me for a
20:51
long time. I the thought of being anti-gay
20:56
was the worse than being called a racist for me because like I
21:01
love, I mean I'm the people I love the most in life, you know,
21:04
are identify or in that world. And so the perception of being
21:09
anti-gay paralyzed me and kept me quiet for way too long.
21:13
But what is the result of not speaking up?
21:16
The result is now California is forcing insurance companies to
21:21
subsidized the creation of motherless and fatherless
21:23
children for anyone and everybody.
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That is it. And let me tell you, this is
21:27
child trafficking. What is going on in the world of
21:30
big fertility right now is the buying and selling and not just
21:34
buying and selling of people, the buying and selling,
21:36
designing and discarding of people, right?
21:39
We are at the place we are. We have returned to the
21:42
situation that we fought a civil war to end, but this time we're
21:45
bringing it back in the name of progress and tolerance.
21:49
And it is the result of gay marriage.
21:51
Like I just published at The Federalist yesterday on the
21:55
connection between this radical bill that's happening in
21:59
California to say to redefine what it means to be infertile,
22:03
right? It's no longer unprotected
22:05
heterosexual sex for 12 months that doesn't result in a
22:08
pregnancy or live birth. And it is now anybody that has a
22:12
sort of social infertility, they can't get pregnant on their own
22:16
or with their partner. So a single person can be
22:18
infertile. Two men are infertile, two women
22:20
are infertile. Even though their bodies are
22:22
perfectly capable of creating a child, their relationship status
22:27
determines that they're infertile.
22:29
And anybody that is captured under this new definition of
22:32
infertility who then uses these mandated, the state will mandate
22:38
insurance to cover their IVF costs.
22:41
Every child brought into the world under that new definition
22:44
will be motherless or fatherless.
22:46
So our, I will say our collective cowardice on the
22:51
topic of gay marriage because there were too few people who
22:55
were willing to speak up for what was at stake, has led to
22:59
this new marketplace of babies that are going to be put into
23:04
households where they are much at much higher risk of abuse,
23:07
neglect and certainly maternal or paternal deprivation because
23:13
we failed to stand up on their behalf and speak for them.
23:19
It's so terrifying, but it's so important that we know and that
23:22
we now, for anyone listening, we're now no longer silent.
23:26
The principle that no adult deserves a child so that we're
23:30
not entitled to a child. You know, children are gifts,
23:34
children are blessings. You know, if you're seeing from
23:36
a spiritual perspective, but you're not entitled to another
23:39
human being. You're just not entitled to
23:41
them. You you're not, you don't, you
23:42
don't own them. They're not your belongings,
23:45
they're not your prop, they're not your property.
23:49
And so I think that's part of the the problem here is we're so
23:54
adult centric. And I know you talked about this
23:56
a lot that we forgot that we don't, we're not the owners and
23:59
we're not entitled. And so if you're blessed with a
24:01
child, then you should that's wonderful.
24:04
And that should be pursued in a marriage where there's that
24:06
child could have a mother and a father and that that's that
24:09
psychological stability of having that family structure.
24:12
But otherwise, you know, the fact that we're now even paying
24:15
for singles to go and create children and and same sex
24:20
couples to go and create children and in the process of
24:22
the creation, it's very fraught for the child.
24:25
Walk us through some of that. We've we've addressed IVF on the
24:27
show a little bit before. We're going to deep dive it more
24:29
in the future. But talk about how IVF and the
24:32
surrogacy process, the harm to children of these processes
24:36
which are used by both straight and same sex couples.
24:39
Yep, that's exactly right. We have an article that we wrote
24:42
a while back called yes, surrogacy is wrong when straight
24:45
couples do it right, like in the world of children's rights.
24:48
So what is the rule for children's rights?
24:49
There is one rule, regardless of whether you're talking about the
24:52
definition of marriage or when a divorce is necessary or same sex
24:57
parenting or transgender parents and go cohabitation or polygamy
25:00
or third party reproduction or adoption.
25:01
What is the rule? The rule is adults do hard
25:05
things for kids. Adults don't make kids sacrifice
25:09
for them. If you are sacrificing on behalf
25:12
of a child, you get the them before a seal of approval.
25:16
If you are forcing a child to sacrifice for you, you are
25:20
violating the rights of the child.
25:21
And that is where every adult should stand in the way, right?
25:25
So what is what is really going on?
25:28
What are the child sacrificing aspects of this bill that just
25:33
passed, for example, in California?
25:34
Because it is, it is sort of an archetype, right, of what it
25:37
means to have a right to parenthood or a right to a
25:41
child, even if you are single or in a non procreative
25:44
relationship. OK, let's talk about that.
25:46
So first of all, IVF, OK, Now this is very, very hard for a
25:50
lot of people in the conservative Christian pro-life
25:53
world. Why?
25:54
Because we love babies and so many of us have dedicated, as
25:58
you know, as you've modelled, we've dedicated so much of our
26:02
lives to defending the existence of babies.
26:07
And so often in our mind, we think IVF is about babies.
26:10
IVF is about allowing an infertile couple who would be an
26:14
incredible mother and father to have the baby that they long
26:18
for. IVF is not about babies.
26:22
When you actually look at what takes place in the laboratories,
26:24
in the clinics, IVF is not about babies.
26:27
IVF is about on demand, designer babies shipped worldwide.
26:31
That is what IVF is. And when you look at the when we
26:38
do get a chance to glance under the covers of what's happening
26:42
in Big Fertility, we find that only about 7% of lab created
26:46
babies are born alive this process.
26:50
Right, what? Let's stop for a second, OK?
26:53
Anybody listening who's pro-life should be chilled by that
26:57
statistic that you just shared, Katie.
26:59
And if you're not pro-life yet, you should.
27:02
And you just have a concern for humanity in general.
27:04
And you're listening. You're saying only 7% of
27:07
children created in IVF labs make it alive to birth?
27:12
That's exactly right. That's exactly right.
27:15
So by the numbers. The baby making industry
27:20
destroys more embryonic life than the baby taking industry
27:24
right the last time. We've got numbers for this.
27:26
You're more likely to die in an IVF clinic by percentage than if
27:31
you're conceived in the in the body of your parent.
27:34
Meaning the abortion rate doesn't even well meaning 90%
27:38
plus of children created in IVF clinics are end up are killed
27:44
ultimately or end up perpetually frozen and never have a chance
27:46
to be born. You're more likely to have your
27:49
life snuffed out by the people claiming to bring new life into
27:53
the world than you are at Planned Parenthood.
27:55
That's what I'm saying. So.
28:00
It's incredibly convicting and I'm sure people listening, you
28:02
know, and again, this is not anyone listening who's like
28:04
maybe they know someone who had a baby that was conceived
28:07
throughout IVF and is among us today.
28:09
And you know, this is not to say that child's life isn't
28:12
incredibly valuable and just as valuable as any other child.
28:15
But what we're talking about is the industry and the, the, the,
28:19
the approach that we have today, that IVF is an option and is, is
28:23
given as an option. And that is the lethality that
28:26
it has for children. It is.
28:28
Because the baby that you're holding created through IVF is
28:31
so precious that it's horrifying what IVF, what the big fertility
28:36
world is doing to the other 93% of children who were deemed the
28:41
wrong sex and discarded, who didn't make the grade and were
28:44
discarded, who were donated to research because they they were
28:48
a surplus child. Because they're still in the
28:51
deep freeze six years later or 16 years later or 26 years
28:54
later. Because the parents didn't have
28:57
the money or the means or the desire to go back and get them.
29:00
It is because when they implanted 2, they twinned and
29:05
then they needed to selectively reduce two of those children,
29:07
which is abort between 12 and 20 weeks, which is standard
29:11
language in surrogacy contracts by the way.
29:15
It is because they did not survive the freeze or didn't
29:17
survive the thaw after the freeze or the transfer or
29:20
whatever. It is like there is such a
29:22
gauntlet of risks and eugenic selection that takes place in
29:26
the IVF world that this is. This cannot be construed as
29:33
child friendly or child honoring really in any way.
29:37
And I've talked with pro lifers who have used IVF and the ones
29:42
that did so without violating the rights of the child had to
29:47
fight their doctors in the clinic at every step of the way.
29:51
So if you do go into a pro-life, convictions intact, you will be
29:54
doing it alone. Well, the other, the other
29:58
challenge with that too is in addition to the child having a
30:01
right to a mother and a father and ideally the biological
30:04
mother and a father and well, I want to talk about adoption in a
30:06
minute. You know, I do think a child
30:08
also has a right to be conceived in love naturally.
30:11
And so that's the other. Even if IVF was somehow
30:13
perfected, which it I don't think it can be for many
30:16
reasons, and it certainly isn't in some way.
30:19
So that there's no risk to that child being conceived or the
30:22
risk is less than the child being conceived naturally
30:25
somehow. But you know, it's funny how
30:26
when you break nature, you end up breaking more than you know.
30:29
You end up breaking other things.
30:30
And you. But if the child, the child also
30:33
deserves to be conceived in the loving embrace of the parents
30:37
and not in a not in a medical facility.
30:40
And Even so, I like how you catch this.
30:43
Like there are some non negotiables from the children's
30:45
rights perspective. You know, we argue, OK, Full
30:51
disclosure, I am an absolute Bible nut.
30:53
I carry my Bible around with me everywhere.
30:56
Like Scripture is my ultimate authority.
30:58
But all of what we do at them before us is based on natural
31:01
law, social science. So I completely agree with you,
31:05
especially from a spiritual perspective.
31:06
There's a spiritual aspect, spiritual element.
31:08
But what I try to do and model for the people that follow us is
31:12
you can make these arguments without scripture, without
31:15
appealing to, of course, special revelation, right?
31:18
Which I know you do a lot in your work as well.
31:20
Well, I'm saying the same thing. I mean, I don't think you need
31:23
to be a Christian or a Catholic to say that it's best for
31:26
children to be conceived naturally.
31:29
So, and what I'm about to say is all of the research validates
31:32
that too. And we have an entire post on
31:35
our website called IVF Harms to Children that catalogs, you
31:39
know, where you'll find links to that 7% figure.
31:42
But you're also going to find a lot of the research that we have
31:45
on children who were created in glass in vitro and how it harms
31:49
their cognitive development, their physical development,
31:52
their increased risk of developing different cancers.
31:55
When, like you said, when we take this out of the natural
31:59
world and we try to put this into our own hands, even the
32:02
children that do survive, even the children that aren't cut off
32:06
from their mother or father, even they are at increased risk
32:10
of some pretty significant harms throughout their life.
32:14
And so we have to, for those of us that genuinely care about the
32:18
rights and well-being of children, this industry, IVF,
32:23
even when the even when it's ourselves or our sister or our
32:27
best friend who want to employ these technologies, we must
32:32
prioritize the rights of the children first because they are
32:35
the most vulnerable in this equation and they should have
32:39
our allegiance first. Let's talk about surrogacy next
32:44
because this is in order for surrogacy to happen, you need
32:47
IVF. So you have that, but there's
32:48
additional harm with surrogacy. Walk us through the the the harm
32:52
of surrogacy for the child. Good.
32:56
The easiest way to break this down for people because again,
32:59
there's so much moral confusion among Christians, conservatives,
33:04
and people that are on the right, even pro lifers about
33:07
this. Again, because we love babies.
33:11
But the easiest way to explain what surrogacy does is surrogacy
33:16
splices what should be one woman, a mother, into 3
33:21
purchasable and optional women. So the first mother is the
33:26
genetic mother. This is the egg donor.
33:29
And I say donor because nobody's donating.
33:31
Everybody's buying and selling. This is a marketplace, but this
33:35
one is the one that the child's going to get their genetic
33:37
identity from, right? So all of those different kids I
33:41
talked about early on, the adoptees, the ones that are, you
33:44
know, looking for the Who's My Daddy truck, the children
33:47
conceived through sperm and egg donation, all of them are at
33:51
disproportionate risk of what sociologists called genealogical
33:54
bewilderment, which is the idea of like, you look in the mirror
33:57
and you don't know who you are. You're like, where did I get
33:59
that nose? Why do I look that way?
34:01
I don't look like anybody else in my family.
34:03
And it's incredibly it can be destabilizing for children who
34:07
grow up apart from their mother or father, especially if it's
34:10
not an adoption and the adults in their life are the ones that
34:14
chose for their biological parent to be missing.
34:17
That adds A increased psychological burden.
34:20
So this one tells the child who they are biologically.
34:23
Let's just stop that. I think that's a very important
34:25
point. Sorry, I wanted you to finish
34:26
this, but what you said is so important.
34:28
You said it's especially destabilizing when it's the
34:30
adults in the child's life who, who were they were the ones who
34:34
chose to break the biological bond.
34:36
Because it's one thing if your biological parent dies, your
34:39
biological parent because of neglect or abuse or addiction
34:41
can't care, care for you, and then another couple steps in
34:44
sacrificially and loves you like their own.
34:47
But if that couple that steps in to love you like their own is
34:50
the one who bought and purchased the biological parent and and
34:55
manufactured this deal so to speak, it's different is what
34:59
you're saying. We spend quite a bit of time in
35:01
Chapter 9 on our book contrasting adoption and
35:04
reproductive technologies, right?
35:06
Because both of them, often times people will look at sperm
35:10
donation, egg donation, surrogacy and say, well, it's
35:12
just like adoption. And they're right that both of
35:15
them begin with child loss. They are right.
35:18
But that is where that is where the similarities end, right?
35:21
Because what you see in the world of third party
35:23
reproduction, whether it's sperm donation, egg donation or womb
35:27
rental, is these adults that are employing those technologies are
35:31
inflicting the wound on children in adoption.
35:35
These adults are seeking to mend the wound that children have
35:39
experienced. And we only have one study that
35:43
compares outcomes for children created through sperm donation
35:46
and children who were adopted. And it's fascinating because the
35:50
children created through sperm donation are being raised by a
35:53
biological parent, their mother, and the adoptees are being
35:57
raised by neither biological parent, but the adoptees fare
36:01
better. Why is that?
36:04
I know, I know. And it's because, in my opinion,
36:08
the only explanation is these kids cannot process or talk
36:13
about their wound. They have to suffer and bear it
36:15
alone. Because if they were to say to
36:17
their mother, who is my father, does he know who I am, I would
36:21
love to meet him someday. He is talking to the woman
36:24
responsible for that man never having contact with him ever
36:27
again. Versus adoptive parents who are
36:32
pretty familiar with those conversations with their kids
36:35
who say, you know, why did my mother leave me at the orphanage
36:41
door? Or, you know, why?
36:43
Why is it that I'm not being raised by the woman that I'm, I
36:46
get to exchange letters with? And the answer from the adoptive
36:51
parents is, isn't that hard? That's so hard.
36:55
I'm so sorry. There's a real wound there.
36:58
And we'll walk through it together now.
37:01
Can you see the impact, right, that that has on the child to be
37:06
in the relationship with the person who is seeking to mend
37:08
what they've lost versus the person who insisted that their
37:12
desires were more important than what the child's rights were and
37:15
insisted that the child shoulder that loss so they could live as
37:18
they please? So yes, there is a very big
37:22
difference and we spent quite a bit of time talking about that
37:25
in our book and in our work. Wow, so you were you were
37:29
sharing more about surrogacy though and walking us through
37:32
and I took you on the tangent about that, that distinction
37:34
between adoption, you know, egg donor versus adopted parent.
37:38
But tell me more about surrogacy.
37:40
Back to surrogacy, the critical. Interruption.
37:43
It's it's a critical interruption.
37:45
It's something that we, I'm not kidding, right?
37:47
Like a lot of us who are more conservative and Christian get
37:50
very hung up on this because adoption is an institution
37:54
centered around the well-being of kids and it has a critical
37:57
social purpose. Reproductive technologies are a
38:00
marketplace centered around the desires of adult and must be
38:02
opposed for everybody that are using it 100%.
38:05
So egg donor is the genetic mother that tells the child who
38:09
they are. The surrogate is the birth
38:11
mother, right? This is the woman.
38:14
This is the only person the child knows for the 1st 9 1/2
38:17
months of their life, right? There is already a maternal bond
38:22
that is being developed between mother and child before the baby
38:25
even makes it onto this side of the womb.
38:27
And for all of you, any of you who have volunteered at like
38:31
pregnancy resource centers and things like that, you don't tell
38:34
those women you're going to be a mom.
38:36
You tell her you are a mom. You're a mom now, right?
38:40
The baby already knows you. The baby already loves you.
38:42
The baby already knows the sound of your voice and your smell and
38:45
your heartbeat. We don't put babies on the
38:48
chests of random strangers so they can form a bond after
38:52
they're born. We put babies on their mother's
38:55
chest because they have an existing bond.
38:57
And it's that woman. It's her voice, it's her smell,
39:01
it's her nearness that drops baby's cortisol levels because
39:06
it's the only thing in the world that they know.
39:09
So when you intentionally sever that bond, what you're saying is
39:15
you're setting the child back in terms of trust and attachment 9
39:18
1/2 months. And we already know through
39:23
researching and studying adoptees that this is what many
39:27
of them would call a primal wound, something that the loss
39:31
of their birth mother is something that hindered their
39:34
ability to trust and attach throughout life.
39:37
And again, that's not an indictment on adoptive parents
39:40
or adoptees. It is a recognition of how
39:42
important this primary relationship is in the lives of
39:45
children. So that's it.
39:48
Like the birth mother is the only relationship the child has.
39:51
And it is that's the foundation for relationship building
39:55
throughout the rest of life. And then the third mother is
39:59
what? Donor conceived people call the
40:02
social mother and that is the woman who provides the daily
40:05
love and nurture and female presence, right?
40:08
The one who simple simplifies her language so the child can
40:13
understand exactly what she's saying, right?
40:15
The one that is going to model womanhood in the home.
40:19
The one who tends to be a little more focused on caregiving
40:23
versus like, like a rambunctious play.
40:26
And children who don't have that female figure in their home,
40:31
they will crave it, right? We call this mother hunger.
40:34
And we see it in children who don't have a dad.
40:36
They experience father hunger. They start to gravitate to
40:39
whatever man is in their life, their coaches, their teachers.
40:42
And sometimes that goes poorly because they are more
40:45
susceptible to predatory male attention.
40:48
So from a child's perspective, all three of these women are
40:52
critical, the genetic mother, the birth mother and the social
40:56
mother. And if these women are not found
40:59
in the same person, the child is going to experience loss.
41:03
And what surrogacy says is we can break these up.
41:07
Tell me which one you don't have.
41:09
Tell me which one you need to rent or purchase.
41:11
Cut the check. We can get it done for you.
41:16
And it's no wonder that there is so much confusion, I think, and
41:21
and suffering for kids today and when when the whole the mindset
41:25
is for adults and what does the adult want?
41:27
There is a an exchange recently and by the Kardashians on the
41:31
reality TV show about Chloe regretting it sounded like being
41:35
regretful about using surrogacy because she felt the sense of
41:40
shame when she took that baby, who all that baby knew was the
41:44
surrogate mom that that let little baby was nestled in for
41:47
nine months. And then it's at pond birth
41:50
handed off to Chloe and she puts the baby on her chest and the
41:53
baby doesn't know her. It's brand new person.
41:55
And you know, she's having a conversation with her sister
41:57
Kim. And Kim says, well, yeah, I did
41:59
it too, but I was fine. But yeah, the baby doesn't know
42:01
your heartbeat. It's a lot more than a
42:03
heartbeat. It's a lot more than a
42:04
heartbeat. Do you think that there's a
42:07
change happening, Katie, and no small part because of your work
42:10
and the brave voices of people who are exposing the harm of
42:14
surrogacy and IVF? Do you feel like there's a
42:16
change happening in mindset about it?
42:20
Yeah, what I've noticed is in our work, once you hear it, you
42:24
won't unhear it. Once you see that children have
42:27
a right to their mother and father, that only these people
42:30
do certain things for the child that nobody else can do, you
42:33
start to see it everywhere. And that's probably the biggest
42:36
feedback that we get is once you have this information, you
42:39
cannot shake it. And so, you know, you see things
42:42
like what Chloe really, I mean, she did a great job of being
42:47
pretty honest about how she was feeling.
42:50
And people can look at that and they can empathize with where
42:52
she's at. You know, they can say, well,
42:54
that's true because when I had my baby, I immediately felt a
42:57
bond. What's harder to do is empathize
43:00
with the baby, right? So think about it this way.
43:03
Chloe had a hard time connecting with this child.
43:07
She had dozens or hundreds of other relationships and she
43:11
struggled. The baby had one relationship,
43:14
one relationship with the birth mother.
43:17
Do you think the baby struggling?
43:20
You know, and the answer is hell yes, the baby struggled.
43:24
Yes, yes, yes. And we can empathize and look at
43:28
it from the adult's perspective. What we need to start doing is
43:30
shifting and looking at things from the child's perspective.
43:33
And so that is what we seek to do with them before us.
43:36
As we say, whatever's going on with the adults, challenging
43:39
marriage, infertility, same sex attraction, unwanted singleness,
43:44
unexpected pregnancy, whatever is going on with you, we want to
43:48
empathize. We want to understand, we want
43:50
to bear your burden, but whatever you're feeling never
43:54
justifies violating the rights of children.
43:57
And that sort of uniform, seamless garment of child
44:01
defense does seem to make a difference.
44:04
So I don't know if we're at a tipping point because to me this
44:09
information still is not getting out broadly, but that is
44:14
definitely something that we are seeking to change.
44:18
I think it's starting, I think it turns slowly, especially when
44:21
there's so much blindness and apathy.
44:23
But I think the work that you're doing and increasingly the
44:26
stories that are emerging because it's also a lot of this
44:28
technology is new. So you're having a whole
44:30
generation of kids who never knew their parents, not because
44:34
of accident again, or because of addiction or things like that,
44:36
but because of the choice, the choice to use surrogacy, the
44:39
choice to use IVF. So it's all experimental and
44:43
we're going to hear the voices more of these children.
44:45
And I know that's part of your work too, is sharing their
44:47
stories. But some of them are so young,
44:48
they don't have really that voice to speak out yet.
44:50
But as they get older, sharing about, hey, wait a minute, was
44:53
my interest put first here and it wasn't.
44:56
And can we change that for future children?
44:59
There's so much that the pro marriage, pro family world can
45:03
learn from the pro-life movement and I really feel like that's
45:06
the pattern that we need to follow is unflinching child
45:09
defense. But our, our battle does have
45:14
one advantage and that is that our victims are alive and can
45:18
tell their stories, right? And that is 1 big thing that we
45:21
have is we do have the stories of kids who are raised by two
45:24
moms or two dads or the children who were conceived through, you
45:29
know, at the hand of a technician rather than in the
45:31
loving embrace of their mother or father.
45:33
And they can tell their stories. So that is a big aspect of what
45:37
we're doing. And you know, if you are
45:39
listening and you have that story of two moms or two dads,
45:45
someone that was conceived using a third party, you know,
45:50
somebody who was had a single mother by choice or parents
45:53
cohabited. And then you were one of the
45:54
very high rates of kids who watched their them break up,
45:57
even though they told you that marriage was just a piece of
45:59
paper and it didn't matter. You can send me your story and I
46:02
will do what I can to change the world with it because it is the
46:06
stories of kids that has the power to change hearts and
46:09
minds. So powerful.
46:12
Before we close out here and we're going to do this again,
46:14
Katie, this is so good. Tell me, tell us again.
46:18
And we've mentioned it multiple times already.
46:19
But just to close the loop on it for folks who may be listening
46:22
here are still like, wait a minute, what about adoption?
46:25
Because adoptive kids do have some struggles.
46:28
I mean, I think that is an issue even in the pro-life world when
46:31
we celebrate adoption without acknowledging the toughness of
46:35
it, because it is tough for kids.
46:37
It can be, you know, every kids different, it's varying degrees,
46:40
but there are wounds there. There can certainly be wounds
46:43
there. And so can you explain for us
46:45
again or or share with us how the how this is different and
46:49
how the children's rights application works in the context
46:53
of adoption? Good.
46:56
We talk in Chapter 9, we just, we talk about four different
46:59
ways that adoption supports children's rights while
47:02
reproductive technologies violate children's rights.
47:04
So I'll give you a couple of them.
47:06
Number one, you know, when I worked at the adoption agency,
47:10
we were there to give parents to every child that did not have
47:13
one. OK, so the adults paid us and
47:17
the adults applied, but they were not our client.
47:20
The child was the client. If we were successful, every
47:23
child that needed a home would find loving parents, but not
47:26
every adult that wanted a kid would get one.
47:28
Okay, that is what good adoption looks like In the world of big
47:32
fertility. It's exactly the opposite.
47:35
The the adult is the client. The goal is to get them a baby,
47:38
no matter the cost, no matter the cost of the child that
47:41
they're taking home or the dozens of kids that don't make
47:45
it through the process, right. The goal is to make sure the
47:47
adults are happy, not that the child has a biological
47:50
relationship with both parents or even that their right to life
47:52
is protected. The goal is to give the adults
47:55
what they want. And one of the main ways that
47:58
that takes on some very high risk is in adoption.
48:03
Adults do the hard things. So when my husband and I adopted
48:06
our son, we spent months, like every other adoptive parent,
48:10
doing screenings, betting's, background checks, home studies,
48:13
you know, references, physical exams, financial reports.
48:17
I mean, all of that because social workers recognize that
48:20
biology matters and you can't just hand over a kid to an adult
48:23
that says I'm going to love them.
48:25
No, you need to be scrutinized. And so in adoption, adults do
48:30
hard things for kids. But in the world of reproductive
48:33
technologies, there's no screening, there's no background
48:36
check. The only check that has to clear
48:39
is the check at the bank. And so you have singles or
48:42
double S, men or women who are walking out of the hospital with
48:46
a totally unrelated child where nobody's vetted them.
48:50
We don't know where they're going.
48:51
They're not being tracked. There's no post placement
48:53
reports being done on these kids.
48:55
And in Chapter 9 of our book, we talk about, yeah, it's
48:59
terrifying. It is child trafficking.
49:04
That is what it is have. You heard of the case of Shane
49:06
Dawson, the YouTube? This is just one example of what
49:08
you're describing, but there's a famous YouTube, Very, very
49:12
famous YouTube. I mean, he has years of of
49:15
sexually abusing children. Even he documents himself doing
49:19
it on his channel and he jokes about it, jokes about
49:23
pedophilia, committing bestial bestiality acts with his cat.
49:27
I mean, just really heinous stuff.
49:29
And he's now talking about, oh, I'm a different person now.
49:32
And I'm going to go, you know, go through IVF, goes to
49:34
surrogacy and I'm going to have a baby.
49:36
And it's like, who is monitoring this?
49:39
This man is going to buy a baby, and what's going to happen to
49:43
this baby? Yeah, not just buy a baby, but
49:47
design a baby. Yeah, he's, he's designing a
49:51
baby. And.
49:52
Well, they talk about there's a dozen embryos and they're going
49:54
to have to pick some. I mean, he and his male partner,
49:57
they're talking about we're going to have to pick out of
49:58
these dozen babies or 10 babies. So what's going to happen to the
50:01
other ones? They're going to get killed.
50:03
I mean, it's and, and people are watching this for entertainment.
50:07
It's it's devastating. Yeah, so we we already have
50:13
cases, right where people who would never, ever have passed an
50:17
adoption screening acquire a surrogate born child because
50:20
there's just no safeguards. So that's a it is, it is a child
50:25
commodification. And while there can be problems
50:29
in adoption, all of the best practices are established to to
50:34
to try to reject in this whatever you can possible adults
50:37
that would threaten kids, and none of that exists in big
50:40
fertility. I think it's no surprise that
50:43
we're facing all of this, Katie, when we permitted abortion in
50:46
the 1st place. I mean, the ultimate right of a
50:48
child, the first right is life. And we're not talking about
50:50
possible children, potential children.
50:52
These are children who are already with us.
50:53
They're, they're, they're embryos, they're fetuses.
50:55
They're, they're preborn human beings and they're being
50:58
destroyed through abortion 2500 times every single day in
51:01
America is the abortion rate. So is it any surprise that we
51:05
have 0 respect for their dignity, their rights when it
51:08
comes to this other world of now?
51:11
Parents want the child. So they're going to go through
51:13
any, any length to get that child that they feel that they
51:17
deserve and they need. Where can people follow your
51:20
work, Katie? It's so important and I'm so
51:22
grateful for the pioneering work that you're doing.
51:27
Thank you. You're exactly right.
51:29
Let me just say that we often talk about how abortion and
51:32
reproductive technologies are two sides of the same child
51:35
commodifying coin, right? That in abortion, if the child
51:39
is unwanted, you can force them out of existence and deny them
51:43
their right to life. In reproductive technologies, if
51:46
a child is very wanted, you can force them into existence and
51:50
deny them their right to their mother and father or their
51:52
siblings their right to life. Both of these are really just
51:56
the commodification of children expressed in two different ways.
51:59
And especially the pro-life world needs to start kind of
52:03
fighting on both fronts in terms of our work or at them before
52:07
us.com, the book, then before us, Why We Need a Global
52:11
Children's Rights Movement will make you an expert.
52:14
You will know more about how to defend children in every one of
52:19
these theaters of marriage and family than anyone else.
52:22
You will know all of the studies.
52:23
And more importantly, you will see the faces of children who
52:26
have lived through these versions of modern families.
52:28
And it will fill you with fire and courage to defend them.
52:32
And I'm also on Twitter too much so you can find me there.
52:37
Advocati, right, or Advocati, what is your handle on Twitter?
52:40
Check. Check it out.
52:41
She's a great follow. Katie, thank you so much.
52:44
We will be following your work and supporting it and looking
52:46
forward to having you on again. But thank you for your work.
52:48
Press on and we're with you. Thanks for having me.
52:54
Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of the
52:56
Lila Rose podcast with Katie Faust.
52:58
Isn't she amazing? Definitely go check out her
53:00
work. This is like she said, the other
53:02
flip the other side of the coin for the pro-life fight is what
53:05
how do we care for these children and and what are their
53:09
outcomes after birth and what's happening in the big fertility
53:11
industry. So very very important topic.
53:14
I would love to hear your thoughts.
53:15
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53:18
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53:21
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53:24
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53:32
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54:06
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