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Dante's Downfall - Chapter 4.5 · The Apocalypse Will Be Podcasted

0:00
Hello, and this is the Apocalypse Will Be Podcasted.
0:03
We are a married couple from Atlanta with boring
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day jobs. We have been together 12 years, and
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we usually create a lot of weird performance
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art to entertain people. But we are trying our
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hand at having a podcast because we have had
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an obsession lately, and that obsession is Dungeon
0:20
Crawler Carl. This is a spoilers podcast, and
0:23
we will be discussing plot points from all seven
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Dungeon Crawler Carl books. You should not start
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this podcast until you have finished book seven.
0:33
We will not be discussing anything from Patreon
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or the Pineapple Cabaret. There are spoilers
0:39
from this point forward. Be warned. hey crawlers
0:43
we just wanted to let you know that today is
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going to be a shorter episode why because we
0:49
had thanksgiving and we were traveling for thanksgiving
0:53
and usually when we have an episode that's going
0:57
to be as short as we anticipate this being we're
0:59
going to do two episodes and release them in
1:01
that week but because of the holidays um for
1:05
this week it just makes sense for us to go ahead
1:07
with a shorter episode and we are only doing
1:10
one chapter per episode and that's the format
1:13
that we've settled on and we don't really want
1:15
to deviate it from that especially so early on
1:17
so you know if we release two episodes in a day
1:20
it's going to be two separate chapters yeah definitely
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we just want to do that because it's cleaner
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we don't want our listeners to have to click
1:27
on an episode that is Dante's chapter and chapter
1:30
five that would just be a little confusing from
1:33
a search perspective so we are trying to keep
1:35
things this way I also want to say that just
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because we don't have as much to say about this
1:40
episode because it's pretty straightforward doesn't
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mean that it's not fabulous. I was so excited
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when I read this the first time and I was excited
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reading it again for the podcast. Absolutely.
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It is a really great chapter and gives some really
1:53
meaningful insight into a. very big character
1:57
in this inevitable ruin and it also gives a lot
2:00
of insight into the former crawlers and especially
2:04
the former cookbook authors which is obviously
2:07
one of the main themes of this book is the regret
2:10
and shame that a lot of former crawlers have
2:13
that they didn't contribute or help their fellow
2:17
crawlers more and that they weren't able to help
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future crawlers more. This is something we see
2:22
from every former crawler that we interact with.
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And this is a really good kickoff for it. Well,
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or former crawlers made mistakes or they did
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things that they wish they hadn't. So they want
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to correct the wrongs that they made. This chapter,
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we are talking about Dante, author of the third
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edition of the Dungeon Anarchist Cookbook. And
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I do think this might be a little bit of a reference
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to Dante's Inferno, where you're going deeper
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and deeper into the circles of hell. I'm very
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grateful for your literary knowledge and background
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because I would not think of that comparison.
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Well, thank you. So this chapter is interesting
3:00
because while it is Dante's chapter and told
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from his perspective, this really serves the
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purpose of letting us learn more about Justice
3:09
Light himself. This chapter is really setting
3:12
up Justice Light's character because he plays
3:14
such a big role throughout this inevitable ruin.
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And it's really insightful. Well, I also think
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it serves another purpose, which is foreshadowing
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that former crawlers are going to be coming to
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help Carl because they still have a lot of their
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own guilt and shame that they wish they had done
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more. And they're trying to do something about
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it. But I also think that this chapter sets up
3:38
the idea of. Well, what has happened to all the
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former cookbook authors and some of them are
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dead or missing? Some of them are just MIA and
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we're not quite sure where they are. There's
3:50
a very big character that I would like to know
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more about and that's Minerva. The only response
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I have to that is go read the Pineapple Cabaret
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chapters. They are worth it, but we will not
3:59
be discussing them here. If you don't know what
4:02
that is, they are a bonus story at the end of
4:05
the physical books. So go support Matt and buy
4:08
the actual books. Awesome. This chapter starts
4:11
out with Dante reading a newsletter for the third
4:14
time and he and Justice Light find out that they
4:17
have been reassigned. Justice Light, JL, he's
4:22
very upset about this and we do also learn here
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Justice Light is still pretty early on into his
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indentureship. He's only 10 seasons in so he's
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still kind of learning the ropes and I guess
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kind of being at peace with how long he's going
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to be in the dungeon. Dante's kind of like don't
4:38
worry buddy. You'll get used to it. I don't think
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it's in Justice Light's nature to be at peace
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with things. No, definitely not. So this newsletter
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that they're reading was written by Damien. And
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when I was researching for this chapter, I was
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like, wait, who's Damien? Like, this seems important.
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And Damien is a pretty mysterious character.
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There are, I think, four references to him in
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the entire series. And three of them are in this
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book. And one of them are in book one. And that's
5:09
it. Mordecai's boss is boss, right? Yes. So in
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book one, the fairies that they lure out and
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they're going to kill on floor one, they're like,
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Damien said he was going to help us. And so he's
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a location manager on the early floors of the
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dungeon with NPCs that are self -aware. But from
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the little bit that I was able to find out about
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him with... you know him writing these newsletters
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and then there's a chapter later in this inevitable
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ruin it also seems like he plays the role of
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meeting with indentured people like at the end
5:44
when they're getting released and obviously he's
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the person who writes this newsletter and I wonder
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if he's who's still writing the newsletter in
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this current season that the game guides and
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such receive Mordecai mentions him it seems like
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that's possible well Mordecai didn't bring him
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up yeah the only reason that Mordecai talked
6:03
about him is because Carl asks him who Damien
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is because the fairies were saying, Damien said
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he was going to help us. And Mordecai gave him
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like, you shouldn't even know about this guy.
6:15
I shouldn't even be telling you about him. I'm
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only allowed to tell you about him if you ask
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me directly, but you shouldn't see or even know
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who he is. Okay, got it. Thanks for the clarification.
6:24
And then he never comes up again in the series
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except for in these chapters that are, you know,
6:30
things that happened in the past. So Dante says
6:32
that especially when the showrunners were particularly
6:37
cheap, like the Reavers, they tend to reassign
6:40
people. They bring up a lot how cheap the Reavers
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are. It just gets said over and over again that
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specifically the Reavers are cheap. And I do
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find it interesting who exactly isn't cheap.
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So they say the Mudskippers were cheap and using
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discount AI. I just don't know who is dropping
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all this money and giving a good experience.
7:04
It kind of seems like everyone's cheap. It does
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seem to be a recurring theme that these giant
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corporations and systems of government, even
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though they stand to make so much money off the
7:15
crawl, which is kind of the whole point of it,
7:17
as it's pointed out over and over again throughout
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the series, but then they cheap out when it comes
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to all different aspects of production. That's
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not a commentary on any businesses that currently
7:28
exist in the U .S. No, not at all. So the reason
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they're talking about all this is because Dante
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and Justice Light find out that they were reassigned
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and going to be placed as guards at a castle
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on the top of a mountain. Justice Light is very
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upset about this. He's upset about his shop going
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into disarray because he's not going to be running
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it and they're just going to assign some NPC
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to take care of it and his whole shop is going
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to be messed up. And it is interesting because
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Dante tells him, like, don't worry, you can save
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your loadouts. You'll be able to get it all back,
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you know, the way it was when you come back.
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But maybe you should take your art and keep that
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with you because that might get messed up. So
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Justice Light is upset because he promised he
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would not have to fight anyone or any crawlers
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or any NPCs. And I don't think that promises
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that are made in the dungeon are worth very much.
8:24
No, I don't think that what these crawlers agree
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to when they're indentured gets honored wholly,
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except for maybe the duration of the indentureship
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that they are in. Although some of them get somewhat
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conditional deals that aren't favorable at all.
8:40
Milk. Well, it says that it's in contract that
8:43
crawlers can be reassigned if it's needs -based.
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But as we've discussed in previous episodes,
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the crawlers are so traumatized when they're
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signing those contracts that there's no way that
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they can really know what they're signing up
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for. It's kind of like student loans. Yeah. I
9:00
mean, basically, once you're in this, you're
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kind of just at the whim of the showrunners.
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Just part of the machine. And Dante tells Justice
9:08
Light that they use us because it's cheap to
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use us for this sort of thing. But it's expensive
9:14
if we die. So they don't like putting us in too
9:17
much danger. That wasn't exactly true, but Dante
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knew small lies were okay if it calmed one's
9:22
nerves. Especially those such as Skyfallow, who
9:25
were always on edge. And it's really nice that
9:27
Dante is trying to kind of soothe Justice Light
9:30
here. Skyfallow are always on edge. high maintenance
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high energy so dante does feel a kinship to justice
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light because he knows that justice light is
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also a cookbook author and dante always says
9:45
that it is obvious to anyone who has had the
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cookbook before who has also had it and dante
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says that he watched justice's lights seasoned
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very carefully, but he is too awkward, ashamed.
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I'm not quite sure what the word is to bring
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it up with him. He is ashamed that he only made
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one entry and he notes later in the chapter that
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it became obvious to him that other people were
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going to contribute more to it. And I do think
10:14
that this is a recurring pattern that we see
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with a lot of the cookbook authors that they
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feel that they didn't contribute enough. you
10:22
know, even Porthis. And he was the first author
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and he contributed a lot, but he still had this
10:27
sense that he didn't do enough. Now it does sound
10:28
like Dante maybe really didn't do that much if
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he only made one entry. But Dante does say that
10:33
he was terrified of getting caught. So he had
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apparently not worked out the bathroom method
10:39
that Carl has, which has its ups and its downs.
10:42
Yeah, I mean, you know, the bathroom situation
10:44
has changed over the seasons and they may not
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have had private space bathrooms during Dante's
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season. You know, Mordecai at one point mentions
10:52
that in a previous season there weren't bathrooms
10:54
and there was just people. pissing and shitting
10:56
everywhere and that it doesn't make for very
10:58
good ratings. It does not make for very good
11:00
ratings and that is an excellent point as far
11:03
as Dante's contributions. Yeah, that is certainly
11:05
an interesting thing to consider for any cookbook
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author. I imagine it would be very hard to find
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a place to make your contributions and read through
11:13
it. Yeah, definitely. And Carl's extra time in
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the bathroom that he spent working on this has
11:19
not gone unnoticed. It certainly has not. He
11:22
really needs to get to a doctor to check out
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his IBS. Dante also mentions that Justice Light
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likes to fill his time making art and doing puzzles.
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And he does make these really intricate pieces
11:34
of art where he sews different shapes of cloth
11:38
together, making kind of these three dimensional
11:40
things. And this is something that actually comes
11:44
up later in this inevitable ruin. You actually
11:46
see Justice Light doing it. And it's interesting
11:48
that, you know. Thousands of years later, he
11:52
still has the same habit of his. Yeah, but I
11:56
think that, you know how they say that algebra
11:59
teaches you how to think about other things in
12:02
a way that makes more sense? I think that these
12:04
art fabrics that he's creating are definitely
12:08
related to how he creates traps. Yeah, I mean,
12:11
traps are very intricate and delicate things,
12:14
and it sounds like these fabric pieces of art
12:16
that he makes are quite intricate and don't...
12:19
Seemed to make sense to anybody else. So Dante
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makes this note about Justice Light. Justice
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Light had been an especially emotional owner
12:28
of the book, but he'd also been a brilliant trap
12:31
master. He was infamous for killing a shopkeeper
12:34
during his season, but he clearly felt guilty
12:37
about it. It had been a defining moment of his
12:39
crawl. and it had started a slow spiral he was
12:42
never able to correct. People had been surprised
12:44
when the Skyfowl had demanded his indentureship
12:47
be that of a shopkeeper, replacing the very NPC
12:50
he'd killed, which was not something they normally
12:52
allowed. He'd even agreed to a longer commitment
12:55
in exchange for the opportunity. But Dante wasn't
12:58
surprised, not even a little. I find this passage
13:02
to be really insightful into Justice Light's
13:06
character and who he is and how... that one mistake
13:09
that he made shaped who he would be from then
13:13
on out you know here taking the role of the shopkeeper
13:18
that he himself killed and then we continue to
13:22
see this in his character throughout this inevitable
13:25
ruin he takes a strong liking to the slugalos
13:28
because of the kind of base pure NPC that they
13:32
are and he has an affinity for Juicebox and you
13:37
know her people's plight as well when we learn
13:40
more about the second part of this story of their
13:44
assignment as guards for this ice castle or what
13:49
have you I actually think the description of
13:52
this level sounds really interesting it kind
13:56
of sounds like the Swiss Alps with gondolas but
13:59
It is kind of sadistic because it does say that
14:03
the weather is really bad for mantids and we
14:06
can assume that they are probably cold -blooded.
14:08
Kind of mean. Kind of fucked up? Yeah. They build
14:12
the floors and the dungeons specific to that
14:16
planet and to the inhabitants of that planet
14:18
either to their benefit or to their detriment.
14:21
Yeah definitely and this does seem like something
14:25
that is meant to knock out a lot of crawlers
14:27
and is definitely a bit of a dick move. Yeah
14:30
trying to get across mountaintops on small gondolas
14:34
or bridges sounds like there's a lot that could
14:37
go bad with that mechanic being in place. Now
14:40
Indante says that he has one crawler in this
14:43
season that he is very interested in which is
14:45
someone named York and can you tell us a little
14:47
bit about him? So York is a character that comes
14:51
up later in this inevitable ruin, and he is the
14:54
mantid crawler that was left on Homecoming Queen
14:58
after all the other crawlers went onto the surface
15:00
or into the dungeon. And he likes to write a
15:04
lot of poetry. Not good, apparently. But he is
15:08
who's left on the Homecoming Queen, and he launches
15:10
a bunch of missiles into the nursery spaceship
15:14
and kills a bunch of babies. Yeah. That's what
15:17
he does. Not human babies, but still babies.
15:21
Oh yeah, no, they were part of the evil system,
15:22
so it's totally fine that they died. And he hopes
15:26
that doing that will make him feel something,
15:29
and it didn't. He's very depressed, like a typical
15:33
poet. So Dante shares that he felt this connection
15:37
with Justice Light, and as soon as he got the
15:39
opportunity to be closer to him, he moved from
15:43
the Lockpicking Guild to the Trapmaster Guild.
15:46
But he never tells Justice Light who he is. And
15:50
he kind of makes this note of not knowing why
15:53
he doesn't do it, even though they're not being
15:55
monitored very closely by the Reavers. They just
15:58
don't really pay that much attention. That does
16:01
make me think of something that was in a chapter
16:03
I read the other day where either Carl or Donut
16:06
goes, Zev, if you're listening, and Zev goes.
16:10
I'm always listening. Zev is always listening,
16:13
but I don't think the Reavers are. You know,
16:15
I think that's kind of like an interesting thing
16:17
to think about that these crawlers and indentured,
16:20
you know, crawlers like are always being monitored,
16:24
but they don't know when they're being monitored.
16:25
So it's not like sometimes they know that they
16:28
have some autonomy to get away with stuff. And
16:29
then other times they're constantly terrified
16:32
of stepping out of line and getting in trouble
16:34
if they say or do the wrong thing. Even with
16:37
another. you know, indentured crawler. Well,
16:41
it is interesting to kind of speculate about.
16:45
So the person who is assigned to monitoring them,
16:48
is that like some low level grant? Like, are
16:50
they monitoring thousands of people who are working
16:54
through their indentureship? You know, I just
16:56
always find the behind the scenes hierarchy and
17:00
structure of this very interesting. Well, and
17:03
I do wonder, like, how many indentured crawlers
17:05
are there working in? dungeon in a crawl like
17:09
at any given time you know I imagine as you get
17:12
to the lower floors five six seven etc like there's
17:16
maybe not that many maybe dozens a hundred like
17:22
these these guild masters for example those are
17:24
those stay the same throughout floors so there's
17:27
only one it's not like they need 15 you know
17:30
trap master guild people yeah it's definitely
17:32
interesting to think about milk is the only person
17:35
in her guild and nobody ever goes there Yeah,
17:37
so there is kind of some interesting back and
17:41
forth where Justice Light is very upset and,
17:44
you know, says after he had this traumatic experience
17:47
that he's not going to hurt any crawlers. He's
17:49
not going to hurt any NPCs. And he says, if I
17:53
refuse to fight, what will happen? Nothing good.
17:56
And there is definitely some huge foreshadowing
17:59
red flags going up there. Yes, nothing good does
18:03
come of refusing to fight or do what they're
18:05
told. And that's a constant fear that a lot of
18:08
these indentured crawlers have is if they don't
18:10
do what they're supposed to, there are very serious
18:13
and immediate repercussions to that. Yeah, and
18:16
they say that hopefully they won't have to find
18:18
out and that these jobs usually don't require
18:21
them to phase off against day crawlers. And Dante
18:24
says if it did come to violence, he doesn't know
18:26
what he'd do either. And he envied Justice Light
18:29
and his conviction. Yeah, and I don't know of
18:33
any instances in this series where there have
18:35
been indentured crawlers assigned to roles where
18:37
they would specifically have to fight against
18:40
crawlers. I know that there are times where crawlers
18:44
could harm them, but not where the inherent part
18:47
of their role is to fight a crawler. Well, I
18:50
also think that there may be some situations
18:52
where they could let crawlers die by inaction,
18:54
which I think Mordecai comes very close to with
18:57
crawling down in book one. Yeah, not letting
18:59
them in the door because there is mobs around.
19:01
We can't open that door. But, you know, Dante
19:04
says he envied Justice Light and his conviction
19:06
and that he had violence in his heart, a lot
19:09
of violence, but he only wanted it directed at
19:11
those who deserved it. He was so close to freedom.
19:14
If it came down to it, what would he do? Fuck
19:16
you all, he thought. That's just such a common
19:19
theme between these cookbook authors. And I mean,
19:22
a lot of former crawlers, they just have so much
19:24
anger and resentment for the people who put them
19:29
in the positions that they found themselves in.
19:31
No, and I think it's interesting then the, you
19:34
know, passage we read earlier, it says that Justice
19:38
Light got in a spiral that he could never get
19:40
out of. And I think that that does happen to
19:43
people in our lives. And I think that that is
19:47
what has happened to a lot of crawlers where
19:50
they are so traumatized by the crawl that it's
19:54
just something that they can never get past.
19:57
And that's why we see them coming to the rescue
20:00
for Carl to fight so that they can kind of try
20:03
to resolve and make up for that trauma. You know,
20:06
maybe some of these people need to go to therapy.
20:08
It seems like even Justice Light at present time
20:10
in this inevitable ruin still hasn't gotten over
20:12
his trauma. And it's been like thousands of years.
20:14
Like, do they have good therapy in the, you know,
20:17
inner system? I have no reason to believe that
20:19
they have therapy at all. Yeah, because a lot
20:22
of these characters that are like hundreds, thousands
20:24
of years old still behave like children. But
20:26
to be fair, this is a huge amount of trauma.
20:29
And, you know, seeing multiple people die and
20:32
your entire home world be destroyed is something
20:34
that I don't think that any of us could effectively
20:36
move past. And then we reach the end of the chapter.
20:39
And this is where things are really surprising
20:42
because it's been set up in this chapter that
20:45
Justice Light doesn't want to kill anyone in
20:48
PC or crawler under any circumstances. and that
20:51
he will refuse to do so if he has to, no matter
20:55
what the cost. And Dante thinks that they should
20:58
be more pragmatic. But this is where we find
21:01
out that that's not quite what went down. And
21:04
Dante was killed 14 seasons short of his exit,
21:07
and he was killed by administrative action for
21:10
refusing to follow orders. And we will find out
21:12
more about that in a later chapter. Yeah, it
21:15
was really sad to find out at the end of this
21:17
chapter that he was dead. Unfortunately, that's
21:20
true of a lot of the former cookbook authors.
21:22
There's not very many of them left. Yeah, but
21:24
we will be coming back to Dante and Justice Light
21:27
in a future episode. We will. And this has been
21:30
a fun episode to record. We actually kind of
21:33
struggled a lot with it, but... It's a great
21:36
chapter and we are looking forward to next week's
21:38
episode. Yeah, we also do have some news today
21:41
and that today is December 12th and today is
21:46
the day that there was a profile of Matt Deniman
21:49
in Dungeon Crawler Carl that was released by
21:52
the New York Times trying to figure out why people
21:55
are so obsessed with his books and definitely
21:58
sign us up in that category. He's making waves
22:00
and this thing's only going to get bigger from
22:02
here. We look forward to having you join us next
22:04
week where we see how difficult it is for everyone
22:06
to agree on the name of Carl's new pet. New achievement!
22:10
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22:12
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