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Behind the Score: John Ottman's Cinematic Odyssey · Cinema Yūgen

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G'day. That's right, it's that time again. Time for Cinema Yogan!
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Music.
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Yes, Yoganites, for our last episode of the year we were having a classic,
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but a classic sort of premiere at the same time because the first time this interview appeared,
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it was transcribed because I didn't have the audio set up to do what I do now.
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But still had the recording, and thanks to modern technology,
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to clean it up a little bit and present it to you.
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At the time, this man was not an Academy Award winner, but he quickly became one.
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John Ottman is a hybrid in the film business, being an editor-composer who's
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worked on films such as The Usual Suspect, Superman Returns,
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Valkyrie, Jack the Giant Slayer, and the X-Men film series.
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Actually, when I spoke to John, he had recently finished working on X-Men Apocalypse.
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He won his Academy Award for the Queen biopic Bohemian Rhapsody.
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For the first time, you can now hear my chat with the academy award winning
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editor composer director a very talented man john ottman.
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Have you obviously have the movies always been i guess the movies always been
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your passion to work in the movies or was music your first ever since i was
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a kid i was making you know movies in my parents garage i would convert them
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into like you know suddenly invariably some sort of space station or spaceship,
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you know, and get my local neighbors and my friend to act in the movies.
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So I started, you know, as far back as grade school. Right.
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So you're, you're, you're, you're, yeah, go on. No, no, please continue.
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I didn't know what I was going to say. I don't know. That's why I said,
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oh, heck, I lost my train of thought.
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That's okay. But, I mean, obviously your primary sort of function in movies
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is the composer, so music...
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Was it a case of like, you wanted to work in movies, but you figured,
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what can I bring to the movies?
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What's my strength? And obviously, a love of music as well, to compose the music for movies.
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Well, actually, the music was something that, you know, life usually is light.
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You fall into what you least expect to be doing.
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Okay. You know, I was a film music, you know, fan. And on my movies,
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I would, you know, take the scores of Williams and Goldsmith and Horner.
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And I took great pleasure in putting their names up on the screen when I was
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doing the credit sequence of my films.
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Yes. But anyway, so I basically, I mean, I played the clarinet and I knew music,
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but I listened to film scores.
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And I sort of got trained with my sensibilities watching the original Star Trek,
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actually, because they would reuse a lot of the same scores and it gave it this
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sort of a cohesion in terms of themes and so forth.
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But to cut to a long story short, you know, I was doing the first feature with
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Bryan Singer and our composer dropped out in the 11th hour and we had a Sundance deadline.
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And I'd been doing the composing as a hobby ever since MIDI technology came along in the 80s.
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I was writing pieces in my spare time and scoring my friends' student films
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and short projects and so forth.
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Anyway, so his backup was against the wall and I knew the character,
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you know, more intimately than anyone because I'd sort of created him in the
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editing room and knew what made him tick.
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And so anyway, I wrote the score and then we won the Sundance Film Festival.
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And after that we put the usual suspects together and that's when the blackmail
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began basically because I was like well I like writing film scores for this
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editing thing he says hell no I'm not going to ever write a score for me unless
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you're the editor so that's sort of how it all began,
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so this was,
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like my agent says does Danny Elfman have to wash Tim Burton's car to score
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his movies you know, but so,
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filmmaking partner to Brian and I'm
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sure that he was a part of it I don't
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know yeah so this was this was public access
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the the first film that you collaborated on right correct yeah so then so I
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just I fell in love with writing kids and and you know in film the film score
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you can you can be in and out of a movie and you know anywhere from a matter
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of weeks to you know a couple months or three months,
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whatever, sometimes four months, but you're going to be able to keep things
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fresh and go on to something different or even have a break.
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So the long haul of making a movie can be two years.
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And so I go to what's called editing jail and I leave my story career for a long time.
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And then, of course, the process of managing an entire film is basically what
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I do at scoring, and it's just, you know, it was easier when I was younger,
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but, man, it's just, I don't recommend it, you know. No.
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When I would see your credits, you know, scoring as well as editing,
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I think, gee, that's a lot of, almost a jewel, sort of at the same,
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is it the same time thing for you, because you're editing the movie, and you're also,
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you know, do you, how do you do it?
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Do you do a cut and then go away and do the score, or are you thinking about
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the score before you get to cutting, or how does that work? No.
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I really, my only extent I think about the score is just I worry about it,
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that I'd have to write it someday. Okay.
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How am I going to do that? I have no idea because the editing,
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of course, and the management of the movie never stops,
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and so I'm always tormented by when am I going to be able to write this thing
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because it's not like I say one day to everybody okay I'm going to go right
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to school now let's just stop making the movie so but no I actually people will
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be surprised to know that I cut dry I don't cut to any music whatsoever okay because I feel like,
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I am cutting sequences and putting music in right away, even if it's the temporary,
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you know, it's temp track. Temp music, yes, yes. I feel like that's a crutch.
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I'm sorry, go ahead. Yeah, sorry, yeah, temp music. You don't put,
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you do use temp music or you don't?
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Well, I mean, there's no time for you to write original music to temp the film
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with because you have to show the film to the studio.
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Right, right, okay. So I have to temporarily put other music in while,
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you know, when we present the first cut of the movie, but as I'm putting the
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movie together, I don't put any music in at all.
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I feel like if you put music in to sell, every editor wants to sell a sequence,
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so that one's like, great, we love the sequence, and they can present another sequence.
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But the problem with that, I find, is that the music fools everyone into thinking
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the scene is working better than it is, and it just delays me to find potential
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problems that are going to inevitably happen later.
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And I'd rather face all those problems up front because I don't have the time
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to have a film that's a problem child.
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I've got a score to write. It's got to work.
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So what I do is I put the whole movie together with no music,
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or maybe there might be one scene with some music on it.
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And I feel like if I'm sitting back and watching it and I don't want to shoot
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my, you know, blow my brains out, then it's working.
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And the score is just going to bring it to another level, but it's not dependent
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on the score to tell the story. So then after the whole film is put together,
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my editor's cut, then I will put the temporary music in.
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And it's almost better to do it that way, too, because, you know,
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over the process of making a movie, it constantly is changing.
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And if you put music in as you're cutting, it's just going to get hacked up
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and hacked up and hacked up.
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And it's not going to have any sort of like cohesion to it. So that's what I do.
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And I put the music in after it's all put together.
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The film is put together in the first cut of the film. and then we presented it.
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And that gives the studio, of course, an idea of the kind of score that's going to be written.
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And then, as you know, I mean, the mayhem and hell on earth never stops.
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The music's over there. The film is always flux.
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And then somehow I just, I have to, I tell the one, we're screwed if I don't start writing the shit.
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Right. Then it's sort of the thing where I go home, I write for two or three
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hours, and then I raced back to Fox or wherever we're making the movie to deal
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with text reading or meetings or, you know,
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the baby arning the actors or dealing with visual effects problems and so on. Right.
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So you've worked, yourself and Brian Singer, you're obviously very good mates.
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You know, you've worked together since the beginning of his career.
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You must have a very good shorthand with Brian.
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Yeah, it's, you know, it's all about, yeah, trust, I think, you know,
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that he feels, I imagine, less, he feels less uneasy, what's what I'm trying
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to say, he doesn't feel super, what's.
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He's not, he's not in, he doesn't feel, he doesn't feel any sort of trepidation
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because you know each other very well.
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Yeah, yeah, less trepidation, less trepidation because we have a trap record.
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Right, there's no mystery. to uh he's
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a sort of a he's sort of a reactor he
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likes to react to something and and and if it
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makes him feel you know if it gives him chills or makes him feel good or makes
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him feel involved in the scene then he really he reacts and and so he kind of
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trusts me to sort of determine what the sound of the movie is going to be and
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then he will you know dig it or not and then so so he likes to, he likes to,
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he doesn't have any sort of preconceptions.
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He likes you to come up with something and say, hey, Brian, what about this?
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That's exactly right. He's afraid if he tells me to do something,
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then it might destroy some potentially great idea I might have had.
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So he doesn't want to ruin, you know, something I might be thinking or something,
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he doesn't want to rain on my parade, I think, until he hears it.
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And then if he hates it, then he can rain on my parade.
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But I think that's that's where he's thinking yeah and
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so then i think both editorially and
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musically you know there's a trust back to like i said so he
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can relax and and and and
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yeah know that that things are being taken care of yeah yes and it's also you
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know he can he can find each other yeah he can what you're saying is like he
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can he he can focus on on simply getting it together and knowing that you're
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going to pick up the slack, as it were.
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You can focus on having a life with a lot of directors. While you're sitting
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there laboring over the...
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I destroyed my life to enable it. All right.
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Everything for the director's vision, huh? Yeah.
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But yeah, like I said, we sort of created each other's sensibilities over the
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years in terms of the taste factor.
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So I think, you know, if I'm writing something or I put a scene together and
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came up with some interesting way of conceiving the scene editorially,
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if it gives me chills or I get excited about it, there's a good bet that he
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will have the same response.
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Okay. And if he doesn't, I'll just scream at him.
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Well, you've certainly, of late, you've been doing a lot of superhero stuff
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with Brian, a lot of X-Men.
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Do you like, do you personally, are you a fan of the X-Men? i've
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got to ask having having done
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i never read a i never
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read a superhero comic book in my life okay doing
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x-men wow okay i yeah yeah
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i'll just say wow that's okay that must be a
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so you know so i mean you know what like
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i you know i just treat it as another movie and i
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learned and of course with x-men because it's based upon
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the lore of the comics and so forth i do by
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my research you know and and and then
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became sort of you know shenado just by the
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very fact that i wanted to learn about these characters and what made them tick and and
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the next thing i guess is you know was had some added meaning for me because
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you know being a gay guy you know and x-men's all about you know the misfits
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being on you know a misunderstood or unaccepted and whether you're you know
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you're gay you're black it's bad you know it's like you always you know this is what these super.
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I guess the lore is about, you know, being accepted or not accepted.
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And so I thought X-Men 2 was very ballsy in that regard, because they had that
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coming out scene with Bobby, who is the snowman, ice boy, what do you call it? Yeah.
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You know, he's living there with his parents. Like, wow, this is really... That's right.
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Yeah, Bobby, can you try not being a mutant? But the funny thing about that
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scene... Right, exactly.
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But you know what's interesting about that scene is that if you are keen into
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the whole what it's about, you understand X-Men, you totally get that scene,
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almost to the point where, of course, you're being hit over the head.
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But if you're like, you know, I think the bigots in the world,
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and I won't say bigots, but those people who really don't understand all of
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this, I think you could be right over their heads.
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So I think that's sort of the genius of that scene.
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But of course, that got me connected to it. Of course, it was my big,
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orchestral score, and bite and and you know the superhero
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films allow someone like me
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who's a you know thematic composer to to you know
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just let my hair down with the orchestra and you
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know and write emotional themes and so forth and so it was it was my first outing
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in that regard so there was a lot of excitement connected to that film and and
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it was also just a good experience that movie unlike you know most film experiences
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it's just i don't remember there
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being a lot of horrible things and how much of the movie than we are.
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Well, X-Men 2 is certainly heralded as one of the, still today,
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even with the great influx of comic book movies.
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Is still held today as one of the better ones or one of the landmark ones along
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with Spider-Man 2 as one of the better sort of comic book films.
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Because, I mean, I think it's the best X-Men film.
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I mean, Days of Future Past, people were saying, oh, you know, that's the best one.
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But, you know, I mean, obviously the most recent thing, everyone always thinks
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it's the best. And I'm very proud of Days of Future Past.
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But I still, my heart is in X-Men 2 as being the best one because it just had
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this sort of like, you know, just sort of this emotion to it that.
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You know, we got some of that in Days of Future Past as well.
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And we really endeavored to do that because of X-Men 2 to give it that same
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resonance at the end and so forth.
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But yeah, there's just something great about X-Men 2 and the characters and the stories. Yeah.
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I really like, that's one of my favorite of your scores, particularly that sort
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of rousing, you know, the opening title, that dun-da-da-da-da-da,
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you know, that very sort of almost sort of like a John Williams-y sort of,
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you know, opening music.
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You know that very heroic I was happy to resurrect it for the last couple X-Men
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movies it went away a couple times yeah because it's that really sort of impactful,
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triumphant you know very bombastic you know it's almost an exclamation point
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like here comes the heroes that type of thing I really love that,
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that score. I thought it was such a great movie. I have to ask,
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one question I've always wanted to ask about it is,
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it's been written about before, but the ending has a kind of a Wrath of Khan
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sort of feel to the ending.
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Was that conscious? Was that conscious or, you know? Yeah, a little bit.
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I mean, Wrath of Khan, Brian and I would always say is sort of the You know,
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that movie is just a great movie in terms of, you know, character development
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and the story and, of course, the score.
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And so it's almost like, you know, instead of asking what would Jesus do,
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you asked me, what would Rathakhan do?
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And so I think, you know, I was very much thinking about, you know,
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how emotional the end of Rathacon is.
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And so I wove some of that in there, you know.
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I mean, I don't know if it was, you know, conscious to be a rip-off,
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but I think the feeling, the influence of that score, well, it was an influence, that's for sure. Yeah.
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No, because I thought it was fitting and I thought it was done,
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you know, I mean, a lot of people,
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what's the good word, homage things, but I thought it was done in a really good
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way and I thought it was such a fitting way and so when you come to that,
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the ending when like for the first time of course in Wrath of Khan we hear Spock
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say the, you know, space,
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the final frontier we hear Jean Grey,
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for the first time Jean Grey does a bit of narration instead of Professor X,
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you know I think that's obviously why my brain had to go there But,
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you know, the irony, though, too, is that Jean Grey scene,
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I think, very unintentionally, but strangely.
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Is quarterly very similar to a few chords in the Wrath of Con wrap-up, you know, in the movie.
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And so I think just by just the planet aligned where the person who's a real,
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real, you know, aficionado of the Stonchurch tour hears the influence.
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But I know anyone else wouldn't, I don't think, would notice the,
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you know, the couple of chords that are similar pattern. Right.
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But while we're on the subject of superheroes, I guess I just recently,
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why I bring it up is I recently wrote a piece about the Superman Returns.
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And, of course, you got to work on that.
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What was that like? Were you a fan? Obviously, you got to play around a little
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bit with Johnny Williams' themes and incorporate those into your score,
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I thought, very, very beautifully. Yeah.
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What was Superman Returns like for you?
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Well, before I started, it was... Before I began the movie, I mean,
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before I began writing the score, actually, before I actually began the movie.
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I felt like I was going to get,
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practically on the internet when people would, you know, complain that,
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you know, John Williams is a Scorin and, and we have, who's this guy?
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Why is Amin Scorin? And so I felt sort of like, Oh my God, I feel so unworthy.
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And I'm going to make nobody happy, you know? And so it was a really daunting task.
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And I finally just one day, and I, I've read, I've read about this,
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you know, I finally just said, you know what? I am going to forget all that.
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Otherwise I'll be crippled by the whole thing. And I'm just going to write the
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score the way I would normally approach a film. And all of my sensibilities
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and my concept of writing scores were learned from Williams and Goldsmith and those masters anyway.
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And so I kind of fall into the same, I would think, approach that they take, except it's my own.
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And so I just went out to score the movie. And I scored it like I would any
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other movie except I would just incorporate it. Da-da-da! It was so off.
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And I get harkened a couple times. You know, one time I plugged it to Lois Lane's
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theme, and obviously the opening is John Williams' theme.
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But then I wrote some things of my own, like Lex Fugler never had a theme, and I wrote one for him.
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And then by a miracle, I was really embraced by even the most,
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what's the word? Aficionados.
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Even the most insidious haters. score.
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So that was, I felt like I had a victory, and I did really, I really killed
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myself on that score, and it was probably, I think, 115 minutes or 120 minutes
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of music I wrote, and I guess what gets irritating sometimes is,
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you know, oh, well, it was just John Williams' music, but, you know,
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yeah, but if you really count the number of minutes of Williams',
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nods in that score, it's probably a few minutes, you know, so I wrote a shoot of music, and that,
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Yeah, and we recorded the old Todd A.O. in Studio City, which doesn't exist
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anymore, which is a really large scoring corner.
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We recorded his scores a lot, so they have great sonic quality. Got that, yeah.
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Now, I thought you did a tremendous job on that score, too.
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I thought it was a brilliant choice to use it.
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You know, I mean, there's always, I think, like they did with the subsequent,
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like, man, of stealing that, you know, a whole new score, a whole new musical voice of Superman.
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Whereas I think, well, my fondness certainly of Superman Returns is it was peppered,
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I thought, just enough with nostalgia, as it were.
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Yeah, I mean, that was both, I think, the strength and the leaveness of the movie.
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We're not talking about the score, but it's like, you know, the movie came out
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at a time where it's on the heels of one of the greatest movies ever made,
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the 1978 version of Superman.
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And so it's like, I think the fear is if we veered too far and suddenly made
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like some Man of Steel thing, it would have been universally rejected.
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But at the same time, it was a cripple in a way by being so reverential to the
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original, which of course makes me emotional and people love the 78 version.
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But I felt like it sort of restricted of the movie in a certain way and you
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know i'm very proud of it it's you know it's it's it's it's definitely flawed
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film but i think artistically it's it's it's really a really,
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it's often a beautiful movie you know and um so
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very proud of that it seemed to come together very fast is that i mean that
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was my perception is that how it was as far as production was it seemed to be
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all of a sudden like okay you know because there'd been a few other directors
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attached then all of a sudden, bam, we're going to make this now.
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Is that just my perception or is that how... My memory is kind of sketchy.
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We were supposed to do X-Men 3, and so I was all excited to do that because
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I had laid down all these seats in X-Men 2 score to expand upon all those in X-Men 3.
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And suddenly Brian called one day and he goes, We're not doing that now. We're Superman. What?
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Yeah because there was a there was a change i mean there was
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like i think there was deal go ahead yeah because because
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the director of eventual x-men 3 he was i believe he was attached to it and
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then they kind of just swapped it's like okay you do you do this and i'll do
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that oh yeah i don't i don't think of that but uh yeah i mean i i was in australia
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for six months so i I mean,
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the shoot at least wasn't that accelerated.
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All right. And I remember that we didn't really, you know, how these tentpole
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movies go, which is crazy, but, you know, they often go into these,
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they start shooting films or scripts that aren't really fully ready yet.
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I remember one of the things that really wasn't fully realized or realized at
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all was the whole metropolis, what I call metropolis mayhem,
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when he's shooting through the streets and saving all these people.
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We didn't have the sequence for that. So we were heavily deposed and we were
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like, shit, we don't have anything.
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So I had to fly back to Australia and we storyboarded some things.
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And I'm still in disbelief how fast the visual effects people were able to make
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any of that work because it was literally done at the last second,
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all that stuff, the whole sequence.
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I mean, if you look at it, it's not perfect visual effects-wise.
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It was so rushed, but still I look at it by in awe how fast they were able to.
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I mean, there were dead bodies on the floor.
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They had a lot of vodka bottles rolling around in the hallway,
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but they got it to work. and did you like the country while you were down here?
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I miss Sydney big time because, you know, when you're working somewhere,
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you don't get to really enjoy what you're like.
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No, no. If you're an edit as a poser, maybe other people can enjoy their lives more.
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But so, yeah, every time we go shoot somewhere, I feel like I've unfinished
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business and I want to go back to that place and enjoy it. So I do want to go back to Sydney. Yeah.
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Well, no, I certainly think you did a really good job with that score.
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I've listened to it a number of times and I love the way you sort of you sort
25:48
of drift in and out like John Williams is always almost like in the background
25:52
there somewhere but then,
25:54
your own score comes in and
25:58
it was just I just thought it was a great balance I remember after
26:02
seeing it going out and getting the score so I could listen because
26:05
I really thought that was such a good blending of kind of
26:09
the old with the new like it wasn't you know it wasn't it wasn't just like his
26:14
score like you said with with tiny sort of themes you know in between it was
26:20
it was it was more you but with john williams themes you know almost the opposite.
26:27
So yeah but i really i really enjoyed that score so now you've you've worked
26:32
with brian singer a lot you've also worked with some other directors you've
26:36
worked with shane black a couple of times with kiss kiss bang bang and nice
26:41
guys what's what's Shane like,
26:44
Is he a nice guy? He's a really nice guy. He's a, let's just say,
26:50
he's a little bit of a derby now.
26:53
But, you know, he also, you know, I guess a lot of directors that way,
26:57
they like to want to react to the idea you have.
26:59
And, you know, it's like Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is one of my favorite scores only
27:04
because, you know, there wasn't really temped with anything that worked.
27:08
And so I sort of, you know, took the film home and tried to figure out,
27:13
what can I do to this movie to give it some sort of, you know.
27:17
Some quirkiness or interesting personality.
27:20
And then I thought, what if I do like a retro sixties kind of scoring?
27:24
Cause it's not a period piece.
27:25
It's a current, you know, it's a, it's a current day movie.
27:28
And that's when it gave it this sort of like, you know, kitschy kind of quality.
27:32
And it was really just me fucking around on the keyboard with,
27:35
with really some bongos and stuff.
27:37
And then suddenly had this epiphany. And then I brought out like an electric
27:40
piano and then sort of building and then came up with this funky scene.
27:44
And I sent it to Joel Silver, the mock-up of it, and he kept playing his car over and over again.
27:51
I love it, I love it, I love it. So that became sort of the,
27:55
you know, so that kind of, you know, I have to say, you know,
27:57
I think my score for that really helped really define that movie.
28:01
And so the challenge of The Nice Guys was that, well, at this time it is a period piece.
28:08
And so if you put, you know, the 70s kitschy music on a 70s movie,
28:13
it is really easy to fall into parody and make the film feel like you're making
28:20
fun of the movie as opposed to being in with the film.
28:22
So I think that was the biggest challenge with the Nice Guys score.
28:26
And it was really hard to ride that line.
28:29
Unfortunately, with the Nice Guys, there wasn't, you know, a title sequence,
28:33
an animated type of nice score. So there was really no time to introduce the main theme.
28:38
So therefore, I just played the main theme at Dazim any time I could actually stuff it into the film.
28:43
Because, you know, it's a buddy-buddy film and it wanted sort of this main theme
28:47
sort of reverbs at the two of them, you know.
28:50
No, I mean, it's good to see Chain, you know, back in action.
28:54
Like he had, he kind of sort of went away there for a while.
28:56
And it was good to see him sort of make it, well, he is making a resurgence
29:01
now. Now, I mean, what, yeah, well, I mean, no, you know, I mean,
29:06
I don't know. I mean, there's, there's a lot of stuff in print.
29:10
I mean, what's, what's your, you know, him as far as a director,
29:14
I know he was revered initially as a writer, but, uh, as a director,
29:18
what, what's your take on, you know, Shane Black, the director?
29:24
Well, I mean, I only dealt with him, actually, very little on both Nice Guys
29:33
and Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, just by happenstance.
29:37
And I ended up working with Joel a lot, Joel Silver. Okay.
29:40
So, I mean, you know, Joel is sort of a patrol freak, so he's got to sort of be very, very involved.
29:47
Let's say he's a hands-on producer. He's a hands-on producer.
29:50
Okay. That I respect about him a lot. So, and frankly, Joel has,
29:55
you know, Joel comes from the old school of film scoring. So he's actually very
29:58
sophisticated about film music and, and he's very, very, it shows shame.
30:04
So with the two of them, they're both very concerned with making sure the score
30:09
has melody and something you can, you know, is thematic.
30:12
And that comes from the influence of, you know, the older films that they,
30:16
that they like. So, man with God, I enjoy working for both of them.
30:21
Yeah. Any other, while we're talking about directors, aside from them,
30:27
is there any others notably that you have worked with that was a good experience?
30:32
Yeah, I mean, you know, I would say my favorite scores or experiences are for
30:36
the films that Bob, the No One Saw, you know, it's, I mean, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang
30:41
is actually one of those.
30:42
I mean, no one saw the theaters. It's just a great movie, and so it caught on,
30:47
it became like a little cult classic, you know.
30:49
So that's one that actually people know now.
30:53
But I mean, there's others like Astro Boy, which is my foray in animation,
30:58
which was one of the best experiences of my career.
31:01
And I did this really emotional, positive, feel-good, joyful score,
31:07
which I don't normally get to right now.
31:08
The London Symphony, it was like a love fest.
31:11
People in animation, I think, seem to be happier, more well-adjusted people.
31:16
So the director and I got along great as producers, and I think it was the only
31:21
time in my career where I couldn't wait for them to come over and listen to
31:25
a batch of cues where normally you dread when they come over.
31:30
Yeah, we went to London, his parents met my parents, and we recorded the score,
31:35
people are crying, and then the film made $3 million,
31:38
and it's like, it's just like really devastating, you know, I mean,
31:42
it was, it was devastating for me, but really devastating for him,
31:45
because he's, you know, he's been suspended over at least a couple of years
31:48
of his life on the film, so that's, you know, that's what happened,
31:50
that part of filmmaking.
31:52
You know, and I did a film way back with John Badham, called Incognito,
31:57
and it remained as such, because it was never released and I think it's my most
32:02
masterful work because it was this movie there where it was all about art forgery
32:08
excuse me, all about art forgery and there was these long,
32:12
extended sequences, seven, four, five minutes long with no sound design,
32:16
no dialogue it was all musically driven
32:17
movie and it was really like being commissioned to write a classical,
32:23
classical for the two, but a guy who was forging a rep rant,
32:27
Jason Patrick was the star, their whole marketing campaign was to market Jason
32:33
Patrick on the success of Speed 2. Oh, no. Speed 2.
32:38
Oh, no. Yeah. And when Speed 2 tanked, no one liked that movie and they had
32:43
no way to market Incognito, so they just threw in the can.
32:46
So, you know, Incognito, it's not a masterful film, but it's a really great story.
32:52
And Peter Weller had started directing it and John Badham took over.
32:55
And that was a great experience for me. But again, that was really, really depressing.
33:00
Because the score, you know, was just something that the composers would die
33:04
to do and no one saw it, you know. Yeah.
33:06
Well, you've certainly, you've really had the good fortune to work on sort of all kinds.
33:13
I mean, you've worked on the big, obviously the big tentpole movies.
33:17
You've worked on movies like The Cable Guy.
33:22
You've done a Halloween movie. You did H2O. Lake Placid, Eight-Legged Freaks.
33:27
I mean, you know. I think that the best thing for anyone in this business is
33:32
when they can jump to different genres because people always say, what genre did you like?
33:37
And I go, well, whatever happened, I haven't been working in for a while because
33:41
it just inspires you to go into something different.
33:46
The earlier career of Suspects, I was sort of pigeonholed as the sinister guy.
33:51
So it was even though Suspects isn't really sinister but after that I was doing
33:57
a lot of you know sort of darker films so.
34:02
Yeah I mean I got into sort of the quirky movie quirky films and I really discovered
34:07
I had this real knack this natural knack for quirky scores and so I did this
34:14
like fantasy island reboot of the ill-fated series but,
34:19
And then, you know, things like pumpkin and, you know, and kiss-kiss-bang-bang and...
34:25
Something that's not the idea. Like, well, maybe like it's cheap to free,
34:28
that's quirky, that's just... No.
34:31
Do you, I mean, do you have a preference yourself? Like, when you,
34:34
when you're going out looking for, like, is there a genre that you particularly like?
34:39
No, I really don't. I mean, I wouldn't be good at like some,
34:42
you know, rap score or some, you know, super modern thing. That wouldn't be my thing.
34:47
Right. So you're not, you're not like a sort of a, you know,
34:50
Bernard Herrmann that would prefer to just do thrillers or...
34:56
No, no, no. I would love to do, I mean, you know, like I said,
35:01
for instance, for the Astro Boy thing, you know, that was a,
35:03
you know, very positive, emotional, joyful kind of score.
35:08
And that, I jumped at the chance because I just don't, you know,
35:13
don't often get to do those kinds of things.
35:14
I mean, it was a superhero film technically, so I guess I was still in the superhero genre.
35:19
Can I ask you Fantastic Four films too That's right But they offered me the
35:26
opportunity To be more light hearted Or I should say lighter Superhero fare.
35:33
X-Men is decidedly Darker That
35:38
psychological line More carefully that's so serious Whereas
35:41
Fantastic Four films I got
35:44
to sort of Have a little more fun in terms of
35:47
Letting the music just be a little more popcorn you
35:50
know can i ask you what it's like i mean
35:52
because a lot of people associate you with brian singer like you're brian's
35:57
composer you know just like johnny williams with spielberg and you know leone
36:03
and oh geez what was his name morricone you know i mean yeah what's that,
36:11
does that is that a is that a help or a hindrance in one's career when that happens,
36:17
I don't think it's a hindrance.
36:19
I mean, I think, you know, for better or for worse, because,
36:23
you know, Brian makes me do the freaking editing thing, but,
36:25
you know, I think it's good for a composer when you have a star director connected
36:31
to you because I think it helps your stock as a composer.
36:34
Right. So, I mean, so in that regard, I can't say, I would say it's a positive
36:39
to be connected to a big director. Right.
36:45
So it's not a bad thing. Well, the cachet. Right.
36:49
So it's not... I don't... I really can't see any negative to a composer being
36:55
linked. No, no. No, I'm not...
36:59
Yeah, no, no, I'm not saying... I'm just wondering, like, for jobs.
37:02
You know, when you're not working for... When you're not doing a film for Brian,
37:06
like, someone says, oh, get me Brian Singer's guy, or... You know?
37:11
Yeah. Yeah, well, that's why it's a... you know, to, I mean.
37:19
Thing about my after we think about films
37:23
I'm so destroying and I was talking to you offline about
37:26
how my personal life is so such a cataclysm that I don't want to work I want
37:34
to take a long break after we do these movies and yet what I should be doing
37:37
is you know jumping at scoring some other films with some other predators which
37:41
is which I do want to do for sure but I just have to recharge my batteries.
37:45
By the time my batteries get recharged, I think I've got another freaking movie.
37:50
And then I go back to editing, KL, and then the syndrome continues.
37:53
Because, I mean, working with Brian, like you said, you're doing double duty with him.
37:58
You're doing the editing and the scoring, so you know, it's...
38:03
It's not like I just go and score in a film. It's like my peers that are just
38:08
scoring a film, I'm like, all you have to worry about is scoring a movie.
38:12
You know, I just enjoy I have to worry about all those kind of things.
38:17
Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't know if there's things that I would love to
38:20
do, just because I've got a point in my life where, you know,
38:22
I want to, you know, I have these filmmaking needs.
38:26
You know, this is one of the, if there's any silver lining at all to managing
38:30
a film with Brian, you know, editing a film for Brian, as I get to,
38:34
you know, flex my filmmaking muscles.
38:37
And then sometimes when I'm just scoring films for a while, I guess I miss being
38:42
a little higher on the totem pole.
38:45
You know, film composers used to be the luminary person that would walk in and
38:49
the angels would sing and the seas would part.
38:51
And now it's like you walk in and you're basically craft service because it's
38:55
a different world now with computers and producers seeing their son's friend
39:01
composing shit in their garage on GarageBand or whatever. And so I think the.
39:09
Art form of film music has been devalued and let's face it, a lot of film scores
39:13
now from, you know, it's, you know, it's based in ostinatos and was, you know,
39:20
and so there's a lot of junk out there and I think it just devalues, you know, the art form.
39:25
But what I was going to say is, you know, when I time off, I just I want to
39:30
branch out into other things too.
39:31
You know, I think TV seems to be like the new medium now for really being at
39:36
Belvin, of course, you know, the characters and and story development and so forth.
39:41
You know, AKA Game of Thrones and so forth. And so I watch that stuff and I'm
39:45
like, wow, I'd really love to be involved.
39:47
Not as a composer, but as a writer. I would love to direct some TV pilot,
39:52
not pilot gig, episodes. So yeah, sure. I'd love to direct a plot.
39:56
But yeah, so that's something I would love to get into. Do you think just to
40:01
see? Just to break it up, you know. Yeah.
40:03
As a bit of a break from the perils of tentpole filmmaking.
40:13
Yeah, but I'd love to score some smaller movies too and Back to My Roots and,
40:19
you know, some independent and kind of quirky films.
40:22
But also I just, you know, I started out as a filmmaker and then I directed
40:26
that feature of Legends, which was, you know, it was what it was because it
40:29
was, you know, silly, tinked horror movie. But there are facets of that I'm proud of.
40:38
I loved working with the actors.
40:41
And it was very exciting, even though it's overwhelming to direct a show, but I missed that.
40:47
So I would love to, you know, there's just too many things.
40:50
I've done too many market options with my problem. I wish I could see myself
40:53
under three different people and want to go off and do one thing and want to go off and do the other.
40:59
If I make a decision to do one thing, I'm screwing myself out of doing another,
41:03
of course, that's life, you know. Yeah.
41:05
But, I mean, it must be nice to be in that position, though, isn't it?
41:10
Yeah. I mean, I got just to fall back on that.
41:14
You know, I mean, because there's a lot of people that want to,
41:19
you know, would want to be in your position to, you know, have directed a movie
41:23
and to have worked on big movies.
41:26
And, you know, it must be nice to be in a position where, you know,
41:30
where you can sort to say, well, you know, I've done that and whether or not,
41:34
you know, it was a, you know, a huge success or not, I mean, you,
41:39
you, the opportunity was, is always, you know, gratifying.
41:44
You know, I mean, because there's, there's an awful, I mean,
41:47
there's, I mean, it must, while it must be tiring, it must be nice to be in demand too, isn't it?
41:53
You know? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's really tough to say no to things,
41:57
you know, I've been offered a couple of things as editor,
42:00
and it's like, I don't want to go do that to myself, but it's like, it's like really,
42:04
you know, people that are, I very respected the business and asking me and I,
42:09
I painfully have to say no, feel hard to say no when people want,
42:12
you know, but I'm not going to go to the end of this film right now. It's crazy.
42:18
Anyway, the worst punishment you can punish you to be through is the worst.
42:23
Yeah. I saw top of the list on IMDB 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.
42:29
Can you, can you, can you, can you tell us anything about 20,000 Leagues Under
42:34
the Sea? It's a development. Right.
42:36
I'm not even thinking about now as far as I know. Okay. They're doing some early,
42:40
early days concepts of pre-visiting and things like that.
42:44
And I really don't, frankly, know any more than that.
42:46
Okay. You know, IMDB, they always do these things. Oh, no, they jump on the
42:51
bandwagon pretty early.
42:53
Your mother calls you and goes, oh, you're doing this? I'm like, I am?
42:57
Well, I know it's been kicking around for a while. That's why I was just curious.
43:01
You know, I read an article somewhere once that Will Smith was attached,
43:06
and, you know, there's all sorts of, you know, talk is cheap, as they say.
43:11
Yeah, yeah. You know, but so... I think I've had a post, yeah,
43:15
I'm just trying to enjoy my free time, so I haven't actually wanted to think about it. Okay.
43:19
Sort of, you know, which the thing with the three monkeys, one's got his eyes.
43:26
Oh, yeah. Yeah. See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil, yeah.
43:30
But no, so it's something in the wind then.
43:36
Well, anyway, John, look, it's been... I'm not going to take over any more of your time.
43:40
It's been absolutely fantastic to talk with you this morning or the evening,
43:44
of course, where you are.
43:46
And, yeah, it's been phenomenal. It's been a real pleasure. I am a fan of your work.
43:52
I hope to see, hear more of it. Yeah, okay.
43:58
I hope to see and hear and maybe get to see, direct another one of these movies
44:05
and have someone else maybe score it and edit it for you so you can just sit
44:08
back there and have someone else. I feel sorry for that person. Hey?
44:14
I feel very sorry for that person. You do? No.
44:17
But it would be a nice change. It would be a nice change, wouldn't it?
44:21
To be the... I'd probably end up doing all three myself again. Oh, well.
44:26
Yeah. But, yeah, who knows? But like you said, it's good to have options. Yeah.
44:30
I just... Sorry, before I go off, But when you were saying about,
44:34
you know, what just brought it to mind was you were talking about how the composer
44:42
is sort of not as revered.
44:45
When I was talking with Rocco, the mad artist, the other day,
44:50
and saying how that art has changed too because of the technology and because
44:54
of also the technology in music recording.
44:59
Because I remember watching a thing with Robert Rodriguez, how he puts together
45:02
his scores and it's all digital and it even prints out the sheet music for you
45:07
if you don't know how to write music and all that sort of thing.
45:10
You know, the technology, while it is making great advances.
45:17
You know, it is really sort of devaluing what the composer and certain artists
45:25
do when it makes it so easy for them to produce these things.
45:29
Yeah, I mean, it's a total double-edged sword, because in one way it's great,
45:32
because it can allow someone who, you know, I mean, I'm not super musically
45:36
trained, so that technology allowed me to take what was in my brain and to communicate it.
45:41
You know, I did have a musical background, and I grew up listening to classical
45:44
music and listening to the masters, so my sensibilities used that technology
45:49
in its more traditional sense.
45:51
And I think that when younger people who may not have had that background or
46:00
listened to those scores and take it into thematic music and so forth,
46:05
get a music writer and start fucking around,
46:07
you know what, they can create something really that we've never heard before.
46:09
But also there's just a lot of their only frame of reference is a lot of the modern,
46:16
crap, for lack of a better word that's on a lot of films and so that becomes
46:21
their inspiration as it were you know a lot of that stuff regurgitated and I
46:27
think that's when people start hearing that,
46:29
even the laymen they go well anyone can write that.
46:33
You know I mean anyone can do that so,
46:38
That's the frustrating part. I don't know what the answer is because technology
46:43
allows us to do so many things.
46:47
I guess that's one of the reasons it's been devalued a bit.
46:51
There's, like I said, this generic sameness to a lot of scores.
46:57
I guess there are very few people that can do the real masterful kind of scores.
47:05
And there's a lot of people who do the other kind of generic, typical stuff.
47:10
And so I think producers, you know, see that and they go, well,
47:15
you know, like I said, anybody could do that to you.
47:16
Why wouldn't we pay that person when the other person will do it for nothing?
47:19
There's always someone who will do it for nothing.
47:22
So there's no union for film composers.
47:29
So there's always someone who will do it for free.
47:34
I don't know. It's a hard question, Kima. It's a hard subject because... Yeah, I know.
47:39
I'm just often... Yeah, I know.
47:43
I just brought it up because I'm often curious what people in the business think.
47:47
I mean, like you said, I think the best analogy is it is a double-edged sword.
47:52
It's good in one way, bad in the other.
47:55
You know, one man's feast is another man's famines. You know, but... Yeah. Yeah.
48:08
Samples have these pre-done licks you know like uh something you know the woodwinds,
48:14
so they find a sample of a lot of music library
48:17
that's when there's some cool lick that sounds great when you push your key
48:20
down but it limits the composition like and you have it so you have to do you
48:25
have to do a rendering of course to play for the producers and so the better
48:29
it sounds the more they're going to like it So a lot of people will use those pre-made,
48:36
know, riffs or licks, you know, and it kind of keeps a composer from actually
48:41
writing something that is not in the music library and just convincing the people
48:48
around them that, hey, you know, when it's with the orchestra,
48:50
this little thing I just wrote is going to be really awesome sounding,
48:53
but that takes, you know, that takes, I guess, a more experienced composer to
48:58
be able to make that case and say, hey, you know, it's a duck of sound right now, but it will later,
49:02
so I don't think that makes any sense, but composers know what I'm talking about.
49:08
Well, John, look, mate, you've been very gracious with me today. Thank you for your time.
49:13
Like I said, I really enjoy your work.
49:16
I think it's incredible, the whole writing and scoring thing,
49:19
the double-handed, you know, you're a man with many arrows and you quiver.
49:24
It's been an absolute pleasure to talk with you this morning.
49:28
Thank you very, very much for your time.
49:31
Thanks. Good talk to you. Yes, John Oitman.
49:34
Very deserving finally very talented man
49:37
to to be recognized by the
49:41
academy it was a great chat very gracious of
49:44
john to give me his time as it has been gracious of
49:46
you eugenites of 2024 to give us more to give us more of your ears hopefully
49:52
we've given you some good things to listen to will we reach another another
49:58
hundred episodes what will 2025 bring will we thrive We don't know.
50:03
That's probably a good thing, actually.
50:05
But thanks to you, we're here. And my little Eugenites, without you, we would not be.
50:12
So please keep loving movie, keep supporting independent cinema,
50:16
and we'll be here for you.
50:18
And as always, my little Eugenites, thank you for listening to us on Spotify
50:24
or wherever you choose to listen to your favorite podcasts.
50:27
I'm Kent Hill, and until next time, you've been listening to cinema.
50:32
Yeah, okay.
50:33
Music.