Latest / Strange Stuff Podcast / Episode 236: Into The Manoshere Pt. 2

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Episode 236: Into The Manoshere Pt. 2 · Strange Stuff Podcast

• Andy: Hello everyone and welcome back. I'm Andy Steele. Mark: Yeah, and it's Mark. I have to say I look a bit hungover on the picture today. I mean, I'm not. didn't drink. Well, I hardly ever drink anything. I do look a bit hungover, I have to say. Andy: glad to say, or I'm glad to see that for the sake of continuity, you have also like me not changed your top. No. I have all my own purpose. Mark: Yes, I have. ⁓ no, sorry, this fleece top is my daily, but my t-shirt is definitely new. don't wear a t-shirt more than one. I don't wear a t-shirt more than one day in a row. Thank you. Andy: And I will mine on purpose because we're doing the same episode on the same day as it were. Mark: ⁓ you mean from a continuity point of view I should have had the same t-shirt on? ⁓ god. Well, it's not like we told people that we had to spread it over two days. Andy: It doesn't matter now, it's too late. But I mean... Yeah, but you know, after I went to, you know, I said I was going to buy some drugs yesterday. Well, apparently my, ⁓ eloquice, my blood thinner, ⁓ good news, ⁓ came out of its patent last month. Mark: Yes. ⁓ the one that you were literally talking about yesterday, that they don't make generic. Andy: Yeah. And there's no generic available now, but by the time I need to renew it, there definitely will be. The price difference is incredible because like the other one that I have to have, the statin thing, guess how much I have to pay for that. Mark: ⁓ how long to the... Well, you said it was cheap, 200 a month or something. Yeah. Andy: It was generic. picked up a pack yesterday. It was 17 crowns. Mark: Hilly. Andy: Yeah, that is with a discount because I get like 75 % off at the moment or something. But even if it's 75 % off, know, that's still only 50 grams. Mark: Mmm. What is the term of a patent on a drug? it 17? Is a patent 17? Andy: scam. It's seven years initially, but Eloquist double scammed and they pushed for a five year extension, which they got. So they've had 12 years of full price, these fucking armor things. Mark: And I wonder on what basis is it financial? They say they haven't recovered their ⁓ R &D costs or something. I wonder. Andy: they, they, don't need a basis. They just need a big deep pocket to get it through Congress. Yeah. Mark: Well, and a good lobbyist. Yeah, but it's nothing to do with Congress, you idiot. It's Sweden. Andy: No, it's an American drug. Mark: Well doesn't make any... ⁓ I see you mean... No, but no no no no no no. Patents are international. Andy: Of course it makes a difference. Yes, but the patent was extended for five years. Mark: Yeah, but that's by the patent, some things or other, not Congress or... Andy: No, but you said how did they get it extended? Well, by law. It's the only way to do it because by law the patent expires after seven years. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't expect you to know the details of it, but I'm wondering who makes that decision. There must be a body that decides whether someone justifiably extends a patent or not. Anyway, carry on. Andy: Anyway, it's a scam, obviously. it was obvious. You can imagine how many millions of people worldwide are on this drug. Mark: Well, the stupid thing is with these situations and obviously America happens to be the perfect example is if the drug companies just made reasonable profits across the board. Andy: ⁓ That wouldn't make their investors happy. That's not greedy enough. Mark: No, but that's the thing. I'm sure why? Why do you have to live in a world where America pays four times? Everybody four times the amount that everybody else pays? What? Why? Why do the drug companies ⁓ risk such a terrible reputation damage to their reputation because they're literally killing people because they can't afford drugs? Andy: because it's The new Yeah, but they don't care. They give them a lost leader with the cheap petrol and then they skin them alive with the drugs they need to stay alive to drive their cars. Mark: Sorry you've lost me, it's too early in the morning. We got onto cars. Andy: They give them a lost leader with cheap petrol in America. They pay fuck all for that petrol compared to the rest of the world. Mark: To sell them cars. Yeah. Andy: So the petrol is a loss leader. They get the petrol cheap, but they make them pay four times the price of the drugs so that they have to stay alive to drive their car. I'm talking to myself, aren't I? I can't do this at 8 o'clock in the morning because clearly, clearly this doesn't work. Mark: Yes, you are. It's literally straight over my head. I thought you were going to try to segue into some new subject. Andy: I'm not, I'm just trying to explain the logic or the lack of logic used by the people who are the greedy bastards. The rest of the world pay for the petrol. But only America pays for the medicine. Mark: Well, even though it is a global market, clearly, America has an abundance of petrol. And that in a way is reflected. It's just like if you think of the electricity price in Sweden, you pay not half, but you pay two thirds of electricity prices in the South because you have an abundance of electricity where you are hydro, et cetera. And so that's the same, you know, the state, it's a globe. Andy: ⁓ like. . don't believe it's that much cheaper here actually. Mark: I think you'll find it is actually and in fact I think there's a website where you can see the daily price differential and it's surprisingly big. Andy: Well, I'm having the biggest electricity bills I've ever had since I came to Sweden. Mark: Yeah, that's because it yeah, but I'm not bloody surprised. What do you just think of it? What do you spend your money on new bloody microphones, new cameras, new headphones, new computers, mixing desk? What the hell? Andy: Yeah, I'm sorry, but if you think running a computer is a luxury item, and I've been running computers for 20 years in Sweden, I'm still using the same electricity. I'm just paying a hell of a lot more for it than I used to. Mark: I'm not saying it's... No. I think it would be an interesting exercise. I might even send you one of those plugs that you can determine how much power you're drawing. I wonder how much power your computer draws. I reckon it's probably half a kilowatt. 500 watts. 500 watts an hour. Andy: highly unlikely. Mark: You say that? I mean just look at those headphones. They must draw a couple of hundred watts just to power... Andy: They're plugged into a is no, into a mixing desk, which is by in turn plugged into a USB port and a plug socket. Mark: In the computer! Exactly! That's interesting actually, so hang on a second, the mixing desk literally all it... there's no separate power input into the mixing desk. No, exactly! Hang on, I'm still trying to type this drug patent thing in. Andy: I didn't say that exactly. But my mixing desk, you know, it doesn't draw massive amounts of power. It's basically just a LED mixing desk. Mark: Right. Andy: Anyway. ⁓ Mark: ⁓ yeah, so back to subject matter, and I know we talk about it almost every week, but what do I start getting ⁓ on my Facebook feed or whatever the hell it was? I start getting videos of who was the English guy who went to Marbella on the documentary? Tiddy Wanky or Tiki Toki or whatever. Andy: Yeah. You've frozen on me. Winky Winky Woo. Mark: Whatever his name was, he was being interviewed by Piers Morgan. Andy: ⁓ and Piers Morgan walked out. Mark: Yes, exactly. ⁓ because, literally because we Andy: The two you with wankers on the face of the planet upset each other. How is that even news? Although it would be a good sort of comedy series, having those two in same room discussing intellectual stuff. Mark: Well... I thought it was mildly interesting because I did actually watch it simply because it was so pertinent to what we were talking about yesterday. so Piers Morgan says to this tiki wanky, he says something like, well, you are obviously a homophobe because you said if your son was gay, you disown him. And ⁓ then he starts going on about him being a misogynist. Fair enough. And so his response, did you see this? His response was Well, you need to keep your bitch in place. She's posting on when you're traveling, she's posting on Instagram. This is his wife, Piers Morgan's wife, that she wants to have some cock come around and service her basically. And it was just so ridiculously, you know, insulting and personal that Piers Morgan walks off the set. But I was thinking. Andy: Yeah. You was is true. That's the thing. Mark: Well, I don't- whether it's complete fabrication or who the hell, it doesn't make any difference. But the thing was... Andy: But nobody, how professional is he then? What a big girl's blouse. I'm going out then. I'm not going to stand here and listen to that. Mark: No, that... Yeah, but... But so... So this fellow, okay, however ridiculous it was, is pushing back with personal insults, and that causes Piers Morgan to leave the studio. Just think of all of the absolutely evil people he's had on the show. People that have been responsible for genocide, that are defending genocide and all that, and he's quite happy to stay in his seat. Andy: Well, I can honestly tell you that I have never watched anything with Piers Morgan in it and I never will. Mark: Well, I don't think we even can, can we? I think he does a morning show. Does he do a morning show? Andy: I don't care. I want him in the same room as Donald Trump when Satan arrives and does his magic on them. Although that's unfair to Satan because he's not such a bad guy. Mark: I think you've misunderstood the concept of Satan a bit, There's Morgan and Donald Trump. They're on his side. He's going to be giving them peace awards. Andy: Fuck off Satan Satan isn't all bad Not compared to those two motherfuckers Mark: What? He is the person, no he's not the personification of evil. That is what evil is, bad through and through. There's no good side to evil, Andy. Andy: You don't see my little joke in there, do you? Satan isn't all bad. Not like those two. Mark: ⁓ no, obviously, sorry, it again, I might laugh. Andy: Satan has some redeeming qualities. I'm seriously going to have to insist you have a drink or something before we start recording in the future, because it's like talking to a toddler. Mark: Yeah, well that's about right. Well yes, but bearing in mind if we have the same demographic as the Sun, then you should be using language appropriate for it. I think it's 11 or 12. Is it a reading age of 11 or 12 the tabloid newspapers in England utilise? Andy: Well, the reading age for the Sun doubled after they did away with page three, of course. Mark: So that's gone completely has it, page 3? Isn't it amazing that in our lifetime you could be sitting on the tube on the way to work in the morning and there'd be a bloke sitting next to you reading the sun ogling some girl's tits? I mean that was in our lifetime! Andy: Yeah. I don't know if anyone actually sat there ogling page three. Mark: What do mean? They were publishing it. That was the page three of the newspaper. Andy: Yeah, but were people really that affected by it? Because I certainly never was. I've never, I mean, I like... Mark: What do mean? Yeah, because you're fundamentally sort of earing towards the side of misogyny, so of course you didn't see it. Andy: No, because for me, pictures and films, they're not that interesting. I like real life. I've never been that fucking fazed by, I've never been like, let's quickly open the National Geographic and look at some empty tires. Mark: Yep. Yes Andy, but you're not in the majority because the porn industry exists and seems to be quite successful, so there are plenty of people out there. Andy: I just honestly don't understand it. I honestly don't understand it. It's never been a big thing for me at all, or even a thing. Mark: ⁓ yeah, but funnily enough, actually, it's quite pertinent to what we were talking about, bearing in mind that Titty Wanky, or whatever his name is, he, he obviously makes a living out of it. Andy: Winky Wanky Woo. Well, don't see though. Mark: Er, well no, think he said on the show that he promotes OnlyFans girls. Andy: Yeah, but he's basically pimping girls out. He's nothing more than a fucking pimp. Mark: Hmm. You might be right. I don't know. Andy: And that will come crashing down. that definitely will come crashing down. Mark: Yeah, but you say that and this is the worrying thing we've talked about it the trend is heading in his direction not ours Andy: ⁓ I think we're in for a seismic shift over the next couple of years in the way the internet is policed and it's not going be good. Mark: Hmm. Well, when you say not good, there's going to be casualties for the cleanup that's obviously necessary is what you're saying. Yeah. Andy: I mean, it's because of these wankers who just can't fucking behave in the playground. Everybody is going to be made to wear a crash helmet and elbow and knee pads in the future. Mark: Yeah, yeah, no, I think you're right. And in a way, as with the rest of the world, we did get to a stage where someone like Trump was elected as the most powerful man in the world. He was elected by people. Andy: Who, by the way, last night dropped a Trump joke to the Japanese Prime Minister when one of the reporters in the meeting asked... ⁓ Why didn't you warn the Japanese, for instance, that you were going to attack him out? And he said, well, because we needed the element of surprise. And who knows better about the element of surprise than the Japanese? Mark: Invade Iran, yeah. What, he made a joke about Pearl Harbor? Andy: He, and just to make it crystal clear, he said, we weren't expecting, ⁓ I wasn't told about Pearl Harbor. Yeah, I mean, he was laughing at his own little joke, but the rest of the room was like... Mark: sort of stunned. Yeah, exactly. ⁓ no. But anyway, so the point I was making was that, you know, the world has swung so far in that direction in the direction of these manosphere or whatever we're talking about today direction. What's going to be interesting is when the pendulum swings back in the other direction, how far is it going to go? Andy: is We'll end up having like the internet equivalent of Islam, where women will be stoned for going on the internet. Mark: police. What do mean the internet equivalent of Islam? I don't think women are stoned because they are in Iran, unfortunately, and possibly Afghanistan. Actually, not Iran. Andy: A lot of women, a lot of women and only fans have to be stoned to promote their content. Mark: Yeah, well, I'm sure. Do you know, you say that I'm sure there are some poor individuals who endure. What is it when you hurt other people? Sado massacre or made? ⁓ no. What is it? Masochism and sadomasochism. Andy: Sadists are the ones who do the hurting and masochists are the ones who do the receiving, but they generally, they're only masochists if they do it consensually and they enjoy it. Mark: Yeah, but I'm sure there are several of that leaning that appear on OnlyFans and probably earn a fortune. Andy: There's also probably several trafficked slaves that appear on OnlyFans. Mark: Absolutely. In fact, I thought there was an article in the papers the other day that there was some, I think it was in South Korea, actually, relatively free country. It might have been somewhere more obscure, where literally that's what they these poor girls, they're supposedly on OnlyFans. And in fact, they were just basically slaves. Andy: I was reading an article yesterday about a penthouse, a penthouse, but a house in Dubai, which was like 34 million quid or something, this house. And in the basement there was cages, two meters by two meters, full of young girls that were basically being kept by this billionaire. Mark: Yeah, yeah. What? Andy: Some had been there for like four years, apparently. But I'm verified, unfortunately. I mean, I've got the name of the guy and everything, but I didn't dig any further. Mark: Oh, I'll tell you what has happened actually overnight, I think what might have happened might have happened yesterday was that Bondi has been subpoenaed. Or had that happened yesterday? No, but no, but that's the problem. You see, you can do what you like when you're just being interviewed by the committee. But if you're subpoenaed and you have to give evidence under oath, that's where no, hang on. We talked about it yesterday. It must have happened before that. Andy: She's still gonna lie. Mark: that's where it gets tricky because if they're caught lying subsequently that is an imprisonable offence. Andy: And actually America have got a habit of putting women in prison for men's crimes. So she could well be in the next cell of Maxwell if she doesn't play her cards right. If she was a bloke, she'd be fine. Mark: that's right, Gislein yeah, no you're right Andy: Anyway, listen, let's continue on where we left off yesterday because well, we spoke, well, I'll sort of start a little bit from before where we kicked, where we left off. So I said that, what begins as an improve yourself becomes here's why you need to improve yourself. And that's where the worldview comes in. And that's when you start to hear the claims about female nature. Mark: Yeah, sorry, where did we get to? were talking. I can't remember what we were talking about. Andy: Hypergamy? Do we remember hypergamy? Mark: Yeah, I even looked it up yesterday. And to be honest, I've already forgotten. Andy: Yes, the social hierarchies. It's when you get a level four female aiming for a level 10 male, basically, and they realistically think that they've got the same opportunity as the level 10 female, because they're all women and they're all equal in their own little mind. Mark: Right, that's right. Yeah, gold, I summed it up as gold diggers. And that is a feature of this man sphere, is it? Andy: It's very much so. That's why they keep asking them, rate yourself on a scale of one to 10, going around the table, rate yourselves. And the, the delusion is jaw dropping. And the misogyny involved in that is also jaw dropping. Because it's like asking them to name three countries. They know what the answers are going to be and they're just there to ridicule them. Mark: Yeah, but the thing is that... No, exactly. But the thing is that in my book, and obviously I'm a 60s middle-aged white man, in even asking those questions of these girls, the men automatically fall into a less than one out of ten category. Andy: It's the same with body count. There's this big thing about body count at the moment, and I don't understand it because my body count is three. I'm quite proud of that. Mark: What's body count? Andy: Well, actually, I thought it meant how many people have you killed, but apparently it's how many people you slept with. Now I killed three people. Mark: You've slept with three women? Really? You're right, you did say three people. Two of them were blokes, one of them was a cat. Andy: you Now I killed three people. ⁓ you get none of my jokes today. It's like, that was a good one. That was a damn good one. What's your body count? Three. That's not very high. Well, how many have you killed? That's the way it was supposed to go. Fucking hell, you're... I'm going to have to get Phil on board. Phil, make yourself available for next week's episode. Mark: What? Why was that a joke? Yeah You need to provide me with a script when it comes to your jokes so I know how to respond. Andy: You God, I've been waiting for weeks to use that one. Mark: What's your body count three? ⁓ dear. Well, in fact, yes, in fact that, I say poor girl, I mean, she seemed to be reasonably mentally competent. That woman that we talked about who had slept with a thousand men. Andy: ⁓ dear. Bonnie Blue. Mark: Yes, Bonnie Blue. She's English. Or she spoke with an English accent. Andy: Yeah. Well, she would. I mean, once she cleared her throat. Mark: I what was that in... in... how many men did she have... I was just about to say made love to, had sex with. In what time? A thousand men in 24 hours. Andy: 24 hours. 24 hours. Yeah, they didn't sort of go through four player anything. It was basically in two thrusts next. Mark: And what was the purpose of it? What was it to, I mean... Andy: It's like subscribe and get sponsors. also can you imagine the streaming money that they made from the fucking if you can find a thousand people to queue up to shag a bitch, you can find 20 million to pay to watch it. Mark: ⁓ I don't like your terminology of bitch, but... Andy: Well, I'm in the manosphere here at the moment, so. Mark: Yeah. No, but I mean, it's just, ⁓ Do you think? I mean, I can understand people watching porn because it's sort of, it's supposed to be titillating and turn you on, but what is the pleasure in watching a girl being shagged by a thousand men? Andy: Like me. Do you think? Where is the pleasure in watching two grown men beat the shit out of each other? Which you get in the boxing, which since live streaming, the purse has gone from a million pounds to 20, 30, 40 million quid because of the money that's generated by watching it live. Mark: Yeah, but hang on. That's that. That is a bit of a jump actually from boxing to. Andy: It's still a physical and sometimes violent sport. Mark: ⁓ anyway, funnily enough. Andy: It's not a massive jump. It's basically a spectator sport watching two human beings go at each other. Mark: ⁓ who was that fellow who actually, stood for candidate for congressman or something who was an MMA fighter, the fellow with, I think he had ginger hair. He always used to wear check suits. Andy: ⁓ Are you? No, I don't. No idea. Mark: Anyway, he part of this man- Are those people part of this Manosphere thing? Andy: I don't know who you're talking about, so I can't answer. Mark: All right. Well, I can't his name, obviously. Anyway, so yes. Yeah. So carry on. Andy: Anyway, can I continue? So, ⁓ yeah, the last one in my list that everybody's now forgotten was the decline of traditional values. So these ideas are presented not as opinions, but as truths, often framed as scientific or evolutionary, which we discussed yesterday with the AI science. Mark: Hmm. Yes, that guy. Ridiculous. Andy: So these transitions can be subtle. You're still watching the same creator and still getting some useful advice. But now, layered on top of that is a narrative about how the world works and who is to blame for your struggles. And the Manosphere is not successful by accident. It taps into psychological needs. Life is complicated. Relationships are unpredictable. and human behaviour is very messy, and the Manosphere amplifies all of it. It offers clear rules and framework. If you do X, you will get Y. If you behave like this, people will respond like that. And even when those rules are flawed, they feel reassuring because certainty is comforting. And many people who enter the Manosphere dealing with real frustration, either rejection, loneliness, or lack of direction. The Manosphere validates those feelings and it says, you're not imagining this, your pain is real. And that validation is important, but it often comes with a twist. It then assigns blame in a way that enforces resentment rather than encouraging growth. So the Manosphere also offers diversity, sorry. You're not just someone struggling, you're someone who sees the truth. And this creates a sense of superiority over those who don't share the same beliefs. It's no longer just about improving your life, but it's about belonging to a group that understands reality better than anybody else. Mark: Well, you see, it's very interesting because exactly the same philosophy is undertaken when you have political parties like Nigel Farage blaming immigrants. So they're doing it for political gain and obviously money and power at the end of it as well. These people are doing it purely for financial gain and the target is not people coming across on boats or what they describe as illegal immigrants, but women in general. It's quite a broad. Andy: young men. Mark: What do mean, Annyeong? What? Andy: they are definitely the victims of the Manosphere. Mark: ⁓ no no no no absolutely yeah ultimately they are the victims even though they're the target demographic absolutely yes but it's like it is it's it gives people ⁓ a target group to explain their misfortune. Andy: Yeah, their disenfranchisement. By the way, did you catch Arabella's advert yesterday? Mark: Exactly. Yes, yeah. Yeah, I did. Was she in the... Andy: How's your, how's your Andy coin doing? Mark: Yes, exactly. We should start one. Andy: I thought that was in touch with genius. Mark: Yeah, Andy coin. ⁓ No, so you're absolutely right. is. But OK, so we don't have to get too philosophical about this. But what's interesting is that all of these things are sort of coming about at the same time. Manosphere targeting immigrants, all of that sort of thing. It's all sort of happening together. And it's purely in my mind. Andy: It's the culmination of a century or two centuries of divide and conquer. Mark: Yeah, Yeah, but the thing is that ⁓ there is a ready audience for this stuff. And that is a true indisputable evidence of how, what was the word you used, disenfranchised people are generally, as we were saying the other day, who can blame young people in England having mental health problems when there's literally no hope of ever escaping from the grind that they find themselves in? Andy: It's a franchise too. Mark: Anyway, carry on because I want to talk obviously cars at some stage. We've got to talk about that bloke's Lamborghini. Andy: Well. So, yeah, a recurring theme is control. It's control over your body, control over your finances, and control over your relationships. In a world that can feel chaotic, the promise of control is deeply appealing. But it often comes with rigid definitions of what it means to be a man. And these definitions can be both limiting and unrealistic. Mark: Hmm. Andy: Critics argue that the Manosphere doesn't just attract people, it shapes them. And there are patterns in how content is structured and delivered that encourage deeper engagement and stronger belief. Rarely does someone encounter extreme content immediately. It's like I said to you, you'll start off with the whatever podcast, which is mildly disturbing and you end up singing along with winky wanky woo. So indeed there is some kind of progression. Mild advice becomes stronger claims and strong claims become rigid beliefs and then your rigid beliefs become hostility. Each step feels like a natural extension of the previous one. Content is designed to provoke. It's designed to provoke anger at perceived injustice. Fear of being left behind and resentment towards anybody else who is danger responsible. And these emotions keep people engaged and it makes them more receptive to persuasive messaging. Statistics and anecdotes are often used selectively. A single study might be presented as definitive proof. An isolated story might be treated as a universal pattern. And contradictory evidence is dismissed as bias, fake news or manipulation. Over time, this creates a closed system of belief where alternative perspectives are not seriously considered. And many of these influencers that we've spoken about ⁓ in the Manosphere monetize their content as the whole point of their existence. They sell courses, memberships, coaching programs, and access to exclusive content and communities. And this creates a powerful incentive structure. The more engaged the audience, the more money is generated. And engagement often increases with more extreme or emotionally charged content. The Manosphere's growth has been accelerated by highly visible figures who understand how to capture attention. They're often charismatic, confident and media savvy, and they appeal to the person in particular who's had no fucking male role model in their life. Mark: When you say confident Andy: They're confident in their own nonsense. They come across as believing their own shit. Mark: No. ⁓ Sorry. They come across as believing their own shit. But that was something interesting about the Louis Farouk thing that pretty much all of them clearly didn't believe in the bollocks that they were talking. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Andy: they're all acting. They're all acting, but they're acting, it's like any other actor, they're doing it for the money. Mark: Yeah, yeah, but so they don't they absolutely don't believe in what they're promoting or talking about is just it is literally just an act. Andy: No, they don't. can't. You can be sure. You can be sure that that fucking wanker whose girlfriend left him after Louis Thoreau pointed out the inequalities in the relationship live on Netflix, as it were. You can be sure that when the cameras stopped rolling on him, he called his girlfriend, mummy, and cleaned up after her. There's no way that he actually Mark: Yep. Andy: in real life treated her the way that he claimed. Mark: I mean, that was absolutely ridiculous ⁓ attempt to him to establish his masculinity by telling his girlfriend to clean up. It was just, it was ridiculous. Andy: Yeah, clean the room. I mean, what was everyone watching at home supposed to go? Well done. Well done that man. That's a real man. Fuck me. Honestly. Mark: Yeah, you told that girl to clean up. I it was just ridiculous. He was one, I think, I don't know, I certainly don't want to rank them, but he was one of the most pathetic. No, I certainly would characterize him as pathetic. He came across as macho. He came across as confident. Andy: Oh no, why not? Let's rank them on a scale of 1 to 10. Mark: But as soon as Louis Thoreau asked to interview, ⁓ I don't know whether I want you to do that. I don't think you should be speaking to her. You know, because she might expose me as the real pussy that I am. Andy: Well, obviously, my research. While I was doing my research for this, I looked into each of these fuckers and this particular guy who were not naming the one you're talking about. I'm going to sneeze. This particular guy, me. That ⁓ was it. he, at one point joined this Manosphere organization. Mark: ⁓ you did? Well done. Well done. ⁓ nice. You can do one or you're going to do another one? Andy: that was pretty racist. And, well, this is the problem, you see. He was accepted up to a point until someone turned around and said, well, frankly, I don't even know what you're fucking doing here, mate. And they threw him out. So that must have cut him a little bit deep. But I mean, that just goes to show that even he is susceptible to his own bullshit because as a man of Indian descent, Mark: But he was of Indian descent, wasn't he? ⁓ ⁓ yeah. But I mean... Andy: He joined a racist organization that were clearly picking on Indians as well as everybody else. Believing himself to not be an Indian because he's so alpha. Fucking unbelievable, these people. Anyway, so as I said, they're often charismatic, confident and media savvy. They speak in absolutes. Mark: Hmm Hmm. Hmm Hmm Andy: They simplify very complex issues to suit themselves and they present themselves as authorities on these matters. Mark: I don't think they would be able to communicate a complex concept. Andy: Well, they don't have to because all they have to do is spout that bullshit. Nobody is there to argue with them. When they do have people on their shows with them, they're sycophants. They agree with everything that's said. Mark: Yeah. But obviously there are sufficient numbers of girls who are willing to appear on the, I mean, you know, that table interview, I mean, it wasn't just one girl. mean, there were six of them. Well, because I assume it's because they want to increase their OnlyFans coverage or something. Andy: Yeah, and you know why? Do you know why? And it works. To appear on one of those shows, they will get 10, 20, 30,000 extra viewers. Even if they're only viewed once, they'll make thousands of dollars just for that appearance. Mark: Was it? Actually, you're absolutely right. It's probably very smart because the very men who listen to those sort of things or watch those sort of YouTube videos are exactly the sort of men who were willing to pay £5 to see her take her top off. Andy: Yeah. Yeah, they're telling their mates how they're alpha males and they go to the gym and they are in charge. And then when they go to the toilet, they quickly paid 20 bucks to some bird in Australia so they can get a glimpse of her toes. Sad motherfuckers. Mark: Yeah, yeah, no, you're right. So yeah, so I can almost see it. And you know, if that is the case, good luck to them that they're willing to at least come across as being humiliated. But in fact, they are the ones laughing at the end of the day, because they're making more money out of the situation. Not that I Andy: Yeah, unfortunately, it's a double-edged sword because they're making a few quid now. By the time they hit 30, they won't make a penny on OnlyFans and they won't find a husband. And if they've already had kids, their kids' lives are ruined forever. Mark: Yeah. Well, hopefully not that Andy, but you never know. Andy: I'm sorry, but it's a fact. If your mum had been on OnlyFans, can you imagine what it would have been like at school? Mark: Er, well I don't know, mean, Samantha Fox, was that her name? She probably had children who went to school, normal school. Andy: Samantha Fox is a lesbian, you know? Mark: Samantha Fox, well you probably came into my mind because she used to be a page three girl, didn't she, in the sun? ⁓ she's a lesbian, is she? Andy: Yes, but she's yes, she's she I think her wife just died actually. Mark: Samantha Fox, she can't be much older than us. She might be younger than us. Andy: Yeah, she's kind of our age. Mark: Anyway, sorry. Andy: ⁓ you're not letting me finish this. It's really hard. yeah, their content is optimized for virality. ⁓ very short clips, bold statements, high energy. And these figures. Mark: No, no. No, carry on, carry on. Hang on a second, that's how you make yourself popular, why the hell do we rant on for an hour and a half? Can't we do something for two minutes? Short and sharp, that's what we should be doing. Andy: But we're not known, we're not famous. Mark: I always say we have to get famous first, do we? Andy: And like, you know, the short clips are just to get people to engage. The big money comes when you keep them engaged and keep them online. Mark: What's it called? Death scrolling? Doom scroll... Doom scrolling. Andy: Ding the scrolling. Now these figures, these people don't just share ideas, they model a whole lifestyle. Luxury, discipline, success and dominance. followers of them encourage not just to listen, but to emulate. And this creates a powerful aspirational dynamic. While some individuals benefit from aspects of the Manosphere, particularly its focus on discipline and self-improvement, There are also some serious and quite obvious downsides. Relationships are often framed as transactional or adversarial. Connection is replaced with control. And this can make genuine intimacy more difficult. Now I was thinking about this yesterday in all of these, ⁓ Manosphere type, ⁓ podcasts, like whatever they talk about countries, they talk about, Did what did you study in college and tell me one thing that you took away from it? ⁓ what do you look for in a man? We want to know how much he has to earn. We want to know, ⁓ what, what he, what car he drives, if he's going to pay for dates, et cetera, not once in any of those programs, will you hear the word love? Mark: No, and that was something that I thought Louis Thoreau was going to ask these people. Andy: No, it doesn't come into it. It's basically a romance free zone. It's awful because they've taken the whole heart out of the relationship. What is the point of relationship if there is no love? Mark: Literally. Hmm. Now, I mean, you're absolutely right, and I did, you know, I thought it was, I mean, that was obviously from the girls' side as well. What a ridiculous question. What's the minimum income you'd think for a boyfriend? I mean, what an absurd question for anybody who lives in even anything close to reality. What possible difference does it make if you're in love with someone? Andy: And also knowing that the next question, the follow-up question is, okay, so he's bringing a million pounds. What are you bringing to the table? ⁓ well, my company. And that's it. They've got, they've got their punchline. Mark: Yeah, yeah. But you can hope, you can hope actually quite reasonably that just as the guys on that side of the table are obviously acting, that in fact the girls may be doing the same. Andy: Well, there is one girl who I'm in love with on whatever at the moment, Chloe. And she is the most stupid acting one they've ever had, but she's good. She's really good. Like when Brian asks her a question, she goes, Mark: Whatever. ⁓ yes, whatever. Well, which ones? You know his name, you're a regular viewer of this thing. Andy: up all the time on my bloody Facebook. But let me finish the story. When he asks her a question, she's always like, Brian, I don't know, but I need you to teach me. She's playing him as much as he's playing her. And the thing is, she's got him by the boo-boos. He blushes. Every time he talks to her, he blushes. Mark: Hmm, along with the Russian bride advertisements. Peace out. ⁓ Andy: She has got him by the boo boo. She could marry him, divorce him and get half tomorrow. I'm telling you. And if she's got any brains, Chloe, take it from me. Do it. Strike for the girls. Or come and marry me because you could have half of mine as well. Mark: Yeah exactly. Yeah you can have Ronnie and I'll keep Reggie. Andy: Yeah, no, yeah, I will keep Reggie my little sex offender. ⁓ so yeah, relationships framed as transactional adversarial and trust is replaced with strategy. Connection is replaced with control and there is no intimacy. So despite its emphasis on confidence, much of the messaging actually reinforces insecurity. You're only valuable if you meet certain standards. And if you foul those standards, it's because you're not good enough or because the system is rigged. But either way, the pressure is constant. As people become more immersed, they may begin to reject outside viewpoints as well. Friends, family and partners who disagree are seen as uninformed and hostile. And this can deepen your isolation, rather than resolve it. In more extreme spaces, hostility towards women or towards anyone perceived as an outsider can become normalized. And this ranges from online harassment to, in rare but serious cases, real world harm. The term toxic is often used, but it's worth explaining why. It's not just about offensive language or controversial opinions. It's about impact. The Manosphere can encourage adversarial thinking in relationships. It promotes rigid and unrealistic standards. It amplifies resentment and anger, and it discourages empathy and nuance. Even when it starts with positive intentions, the overall effects can be very damaging. Despite widespread criticism, the Manosphere, as you said earlier, is not fading. In many ways, it's expanding. And that's because it addresses these real needs, direction, belonging, understanding and purpose. The Manosphere provides those things quickly, clearly and confidently. The problem is, it's not the needs themselves. The problem is how those needs are being met. So the rise of the Manosphere is not just a story about the internet. It's a story about modern life, about uncertainty and identity, about the search for meaning in a rapidly changing world. And it reflects real struggles, but it offers solutions that are often incomplete, misleading or harmful. And ⁓ understanding it requires more than dismissal. It requires Looking at the conditions that created it, the systems that amplify it, and the people who are drawn to it. Because at its core, the Manosphere is not just an ideology, it's a response. And like any response, it tells us something important, not just about those who embrace it, but about the world that made it possible. That is technically the end of my explanation of the menace. Mark: What? But what, hang on, what about the conversation about Lamborghini man? Andy: Yes, we can do that. But I mean, that is the end of my script. So now it is time where the floor is open to you to ask questions and we can discuss. Mark: Lamborghini man. Andy: What about him? Mark: Well, what I found interesting, he was the only one that I think other than he was literally, I think it was his wife, literally saying to his wife, that I can shag anybody I want to, but I want you to be a faithful mother of his two daughters. Exactly. He was the only one where it was patently obvious and he was promoting Andy: which one? Because they all have a Lambo. ⁓ yeah, this is the one with the two daughters. Mark: purely financial stuff. I mean, it was, I don't know if, yes, expecting your wife to remain faithful while you go and shag who you like, I suppose that's a form of misogyny, but it wasn't blatant. He was sort of more on the investment. You can be successful like me, et cetera, et cetera, go to the gym, et cetera, whatever. So he was the least. toxic in spite of his offensiveness in the way he... and in fact it was very interesting. There was a car so immediately it grabs my attention. Andy: Yeah, so you've already subscribed, I'm guessing, to this channel. nice Lambo. £20 a month. Mark: Yeah. He was making, I think he was making the point to Louie Farrow that just because I drive a Lamborghini, you know, it doesn't mean anything. You know, this isn't me. Whereas, course, 99 % of Lamborghinis, the reason they buy them is because they want to be seen. Andy: Yeah, he said the car means nothing. Yeah, but that statement in itself, that statement in itself is a lie. Because if it meant nothing, he would have afford Fiesta. Mark: No wait, of course, absolutely. Well, whatever. Andy: Why would you waste this money that you're trying so hard to accumulate if it means nothing? Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Now, I mean, his sin, I would say in terms of Lamborghini man was more well, was more to do with sort of a much simpler form of ego. He was clearly driven by ego. There was no sense of empathy, humility. It was the opposite of that, which is obviously ego. That was what was driving him. I didn't I didn't read him. Andy: was being born. Mark: as a fundamentally evil person. Whereas the other guys, the two other guys, the one we were talking about earlier, the previous FBI agent who had the down market version of that, what's up, whatever you call it, whatever video thing, he was very suspect. Andy: Whatever. I can tell you that he is actually the biggest in the Manusphere, that one. As in most successful. Mark: You mean biggest? we've got to... and in what measure? He has the most views? Andy: He has the most viewers, the biggest audience. Mark: So even more than Titty Wang, I can't keep saying that expression. We need to look up his real name. Andy: Winky Winky Worm. No, Winky Winky Woo is fine. That was Peter Sellers and Dudley Moore did the Winky Winky Woo. You wouldn't remember that, you? Yeah. Derek and Clive live. Winky Winky Woo. Yes. Yes. Peter Sellers and Dudley Moore. Peter Cook, sorry. Not Peter Sellers. Mark: ⁓ So. Peter Sellers and Dudley Moore did a skit, did they? I'll have to. Derek and Clive Live, that was a record wasn't it? I had it. Both of them had died, unfortunately. Anyway, so more than him, maybe because he's English and the other fellow was American. Andy: I think the Lambo guy was a little less forthcoming because he was protecting his own brand. He knew that he probably knew that being on Louis Thoreau could go really badly for him. ⁓ and he was, he didn't want to say too much about anything because he, his, his whole business model is getting you to invest in some really dodgy fucking Bitcoin. Mark: Yes, but he wasn't there insulting women on a podcast is what I'm saying. Andy: No, but that's not, that's no, because he, that's not the audience he's after. He's not after the people who sleep in cars and the people who are from single parent families. He's after your middling successful person who is looking for an easy road to riches. Mark: me middling successful Yeah, yeah, but the most interesting one was, I say most interesting, none of them are particularly interesting, but the one who transitioned to Islam. So he was, I think, I didn't see his earlier work, he was the one where he was on the street where those youths ran up and said, well, well, well, I can't believe I'm meeting you, etc, etc. And he was the one and I didn't understand it, you'll be able to tell me about this. What is it with this photographs? If one of your eyes is covered, that's a sign of Satan or something. Andy: ⁓ that's Satanism. You see every magazine cover. Mark: No, but that's what he was saying. what's that got to do? What? You cover one eye and that's something to with Satan, is it? Andy: I know. Yeah, that proves it. Mark: Anyway, so at least he'd found religion. I mean, how did he transition from doing, you know, misogyny videos or whatever he did and ending up? Andy: Yeah, but... Will you go from one fake belief system to another? I don't see anything wrong with that. Mark: No, what do mean Islam is the last real, it's the true one. Andy: Don't you dare start promoting Islam on this podcast. We do not promote any religion on this podcast. Mark: as an atheist. ⁓ well I tell you what, I never will and shall I give you the reason? No, well, in fact, one thing that cured me of religion, I think I was about 13 and it probably happened to you. Walking down Oxford Street, a guy comes up to me and says, have you ever heard of who was the Beatles fellow, George Harrison? George Harrison. I said, yeah, I've heard of George Harrison and I've got one of his records here and it's a gift to you. And I said, well, that's very kind. Andy: George Harrison, yeah. Mark: you know, I was middle, you know, I was, I have to accept a bit middle class, well that's very kind of you, thank you very much. I start walking away, just one thing, we usually like a donation, ⁓ all right, okay, so I probably gave him a quid, he said no, we really like a donation of a minimum of a fiver. Anyway, it was George Harrison when he transitioned into, what was his name? Andy: Is it my sweet Lord? Yeah. You're thinking Cat Stevens. Mark: it wasn't. It was Cat Stevens. Yeah. And he transitioned into. Andy: Err, Muhammad something. Mark: something or other and that cured me of my religious beliefs at that stage. So I won't be promoting any religious beliefs. Andy: You I used to really like Cat Stevens as well when I was a kid. Mark: What group was he in? Andy: He was just Cat Stevens. He was his own group. Why St. Lord? No, he was not. No. Cat Stevens was Cat Stevens. Mark: No, no, no, he was part of something bigger. ⁓ wasn't he? What's a shame is that if Is that Cat Stevens? All right, all right, all right. It's a shame I had to sell my ⁓ record collection as a result of shortage of funds, because that sort of record is probably worth a few bob these days. Andy: Anything vinyl is actually worth money. Mark: is it? Anyway, so coming back to this Manosphere, let's close this discussion because, but it was, I don't know, it was worrying because what it illustrated was how bad things are really getting when there is such an appetite for this sort of content. Andy: and a proliferation of people providing it. Mark: and a proliferation of people providing it. Yes, yes, you're right. But I think as we started this conversation today, talking about, I think you're right, that at some point people are going to say, it's gone too far and the pendulum will swing in the other way and we're going to be living in a puritanical, know, people, women can't show their legs and all of that sort of nonsense. Andy: No, we'll start burning witches again. Mark: ⁓ would you think we're going to go that far? Andy: Yeah, I think we'll go back to the Middle Ages where we'll be eating potatoes and burning witches. Mark: Are you going to be a squire or are you going to be a... what's the opposite of a squire? A peasant. Andy: I'm going to be a bit of a Robin Hood figure, except I'll take from the rich and keep it. Mark: Yes, exactly. But it is, of course, it's not surprising that you made the very important point that emotional content completely irrelevant, that's all out the door. And it's all, as you described it again, quite accurately, as transactional, it's just how much money, whether you're going to be in the plus or minus column of the relationship. Andy: Yeah, there's no emotions in it. Yeah, it's basically what do you bring to the table? Mark: Yeah, what's it? I certainly don't want to get too philosophical. It's strange tough podcast for Christ's sake, but what Andy: But it is strange. It's strange that people accept this kind of ideology and look at it as though it's a normal way to think. Mark: Yes. Yes. No, but it's... and it's not just now, but it's certainly worse now. The common theme through all of it is what these people can get out of a situation. The measure of their satisfaction is how much they get out of a situation. And certainly in my experience, satisfaction only relates to what you put into. situation. It's the effort you put in, not what you take out. And that concept is just completely, literally dead in the water with these people. They do not understand that... I can't keep saying this titty wanky thing. And I can't say P diddy because that is a person, isn't it? Andy: Just add in the water. Winky Winky Woo. Yeah, but he's also a pretty awful person. Mark: Anyway, whatever that fellow is, however much money that fellow is able to extract out of the out of his podcasting, not podcasting, but videos, he literally ranks as a one on the scale of one to ten. And he'll probably never understand why poor fellow. He needs his mother to explain to him. Andy: I think he will call you a loser and then tell his mum about you. Mark: It's just... Anyway, whatever. But, you know, I think Louis Thoreau did a reasonably good job, but bearing in mind how, in my mind, bad these people really are, ⁓ he could have exposed more. Andy: I mean, we could have done 10 episodes on this. It's too big to cover. No, but it's too big to cover in one go. And Louis Thoreau did what he could, I think. I thought it was quite well done. It was just revolting enough. Mark: No, you're right. I wouldn't want to, but you're right. Yes. Yeah. In fact, is Louis Thoreau Jewish? Andy: ⁓ I would say so. Mark: can't Thoreau, it's an unusual name. Only because they start, I mean, we don't need to go over it, but you know, when ⁓ he's, Andy: I mean, he used to work for the BBC, didn't he? So I would say 90%. It's a qualification to enter the BBC. Mark: Well that doesn't mean you're Jewish. What? I don't think so, is it really? Anyway, ⁓ Jimmy Savile thing keeps haunting him. I don't know why, because what did he come across as sympathetic or something when he was interviewing Jimmy Savile? Andy: Yeah. No, not at all. was asking questions regarding the age of Jimmy Savile's companions and bringing it to light, but nobody cared. Mark: So he wasn't, ⁓ Andy: I mean, he didn't turn around like Johnny Rotland did and say, you're a fucking nonce. Mark: Yeah. Andy: But he did point to the disparity, the age disparity in the people he was attracted to. Mark: No, because I wonder why this fellow kept picking on Thoreau for having done an interview with you. Andy: Because he didn't even know about it. It was his viewers who were saying, ask him about Jimmy Sheville. He's mates with Jimmy Sheville. They equally didn't know anything about it. But if they did, they wouldn't have posed that question in the first place. Mark: Minion. Yeah. Mmm. Mm. Yeah. Andy: Anyway, Jimmy Savile is in hell happily. Mark: We don't want to do an episode about him. You know he operated in my area in Buckinghamshire. Andy: He operated all over the country. Yeah. He was, ⁓ he didn't, he had no borders. Mark: Have a day. Andy: Anyway, that brings us to the end of this double episode episode of Strange Stuff Podcast, which for I think this is the first time we're actually going to release two episodes on the same day, back to back, or maybe we've done it once before. Mark: Yeah. I hope our podcast can't be conceived as anything other than sort of mildly positive slight entertainment. Andy: Well, after the people we're talking about, we should be seen as children's entertainers. Mark: Yes, you're right, Yes, apart from the language. Andy: Fuck's sake. I think we need to finish this episode with one of my jokes. And I'm warning you, it's a joke in advance so that you know when to laugh. Mark: Right, let me see if I can laugh at the right point of the joke. What's it called? The touch line. Catch line. Punch line. Andy: Okay, so. punchline. See, we've lost it already. I'm setting myself up and you're knocking me down. So ⁓ vacuum cleaner salesman knocks on the door of a really big mansion in the middle of Surrey. The door's opened by an eight-year-old boy in a silk dressing gown, a glass of brandy in one hand and a cigar in the other. The vacuum cleaner salesman says, hello young man, is your mummy home? And the young man says, does it look like my fucking mum's home, you moron? Mark: What that's... We've got there, have we? Andy: He's eight years old smoking and drinking, home alone. Oh my God, I give up. Mark: Ha ha ha. ⁓ dear. Well done. Andy: I give myself a round of applause. Thanks for listening, guys. I hope you appreciated the efforts that we put into this one this week. Extra long episode. If anyone actually got to the end of both episodes, well done, you. Mark: Yes. Yep. ⁓ yes, you're right. You should have done your joke at the beginning Andy, because a lot of people might have missed it. Andy: Well I knew you were going to ruin it so it's probably best. Mark: What do you mean ruin I didn't need to ruin it. are you talking about? Some Macaulay Culkin wannabe type Joe. ⁓ dear, well done. Yeah, mean, you know, touchy subject, I have to say. I mean, what we were talking about, the Manosphere. But I mean, it's good to bring it out into people to people's attention who missed the documentary. Andy: Well, ⁓ I'll tell you what I've been doing actually. I've been re-watching Peaky Blinders for the simple reason that today comes out the film Peaky Blinders on Netflix, which is like the sequel. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And is it starring the same guy or the same characters? ⁓ really? Andy: Yes, yes, it's Blinders. It's Peaky Blinders. Yeah, so I've got to put back watching the film until I finish the entire series. Mark: You know they actually existed. They literally had razor blades sewn into the peaks of their caps. Andy: Yeah, we did do an episode on street gangs in Victorian England, I think. Mark: did we? What's next week? What's next week's episode about? Andy: Well, I'm not going to tell you that. I never do. Mark: You're always criticizing me for being in the dark. mean, you know, obviously I need a bit of help these days. Andy: But even when you have help, it's like talking to myself. It's pointless telling you what the episode's about because anyway, by next week you'll have forgotten. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Actually, I would have done. Yep. Andy: Anyway, let's finish this up. for listening. We'll see you same time, same place next week. And if you're one of our Patreon members, you can join us at patreon.com slash Strange Stuff podcast and listen on Wednesday as well. When you get an extra episode, plus there's the murdery bits. It's three episodes a week. It's a bonus. And we will not rate you out of 10, unless you really want us to. So add yourselves a Strange Week. Mark: Yep. Yep. you Andy: Don't join the Manosphere and we'll see you same time, same place next week. Goodbye for now. Mark: Bye for now.