Latest / The Good Builder Podcast / The Daily Dose #178 | Damon From Odyssey Legal | The Lawyer Builders Actually Want in Their Corner
Transcript
- Aaron Ng (00:01.102) Okay. Good morning and welcome to the Good Builder podcast. Today, I've been searching for someone like this guy that I've got on today. A lot of you out there have been asking a lot about the legal issues and legal things that you have to know about as a builder. And it's one of the most important things, especially coming out of COVID, we're hearing a lot of cases around litigation and customer complaints and things like that. And also I saw a post by this gentleman yesterday and he talked about protecting your reputation with reviews. And that's something that I've never seen a lawyer talk about. And I think that's really cool. He's an absolute weapon. He's one of the he's a bit of a gym goer himself. And we just talked about giving away my Tyson gloves and I'm introducing to you the legend Damien. sorry I'm introducing to you the legend Damon from Odyssey legal. How are you man? Yeah, good, man Thanks for having me on and it's good to be here. I'm in the studio. That's for sure. thanks mate Well, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on you know, I'll saying to you before the pod mate that Look, I was looking around for lawyers. We knew a few in a local area. As I was expressing the podcast yesterday, we had a few issues with a few lawyers here, but it's not even about that. What happened was my wife actually stumbled onto your Instagram and she goes, look at this bloke. He's a weapon. He's built. He knows what he's doing, you know. He loves the fight game, he loves the gym. And I think everyone in construction loves that. But then your content, she's like, you should do content like this guy. Aaron Ng (01:39.948) And I looked at you and I was like, that was cool, mate. So I want to know a little bit about the story of Damon and where you've come from and where that passion for sort of educating people and actually giving a shit about what you do. Where do we begin? guess, well, yeah, I've been in the legal game for long enough now, but kind of pulled the trigger last year in August or July, August, just to kind of do my own thing. And you may have seen the reel about, you know, the main reason was that was to obviously run it, run on my own firm, but also be a bit more present at home. What I probably should mention more often is my partner try and push me to do it more than anything. But essentially I've just since I started Odyssey Legal, and obviously my background is kind of litigation disputes and things of that nature. So once I did my own thing, I just really wanted to provide value, but I wanted to make it do it in a way that not a lot of other lawyers are doing at this stage. I could have sat there and pumped out articles and have 10,000 word articles that no one reads. Or I could have a 30 second video that someone goes, I've actually got something out of that and it didn't take up a lot of time and it was actually interesting. So for me, that was always kind of my goal in doing the social media side of things as well as just kind of allowing people to get a bit of understanding who I was. Obviously as lawyers, as a... one of the big factors is trust. So my thoughts were, was, you know, if I can start building that trust early on, then they can go, well, no, this is the guy I can see myself. If I'm in a dispute for two or three years, like I can go have a beer with him. I can tell him I messed up. He's the guy I wanna spend that time with rather than just another kind of guy in a suit. So I'm just trying to, yeah, at this stage have a bit of fun with it whilst also trying to give value out where I can. You do it well, mate. And to be honest, like you build trust with us straight away. Again, I'm not talking at the good builder We want to talk about positivity, not negativity. But mate, we're to be sending some of our legal stuff over to you. Yeah, I appreciate that. Just the way that you come across, meeting you now, all of that sort of stuff. I think it's very unique in that industry as well. And we really aligned with you because I was like, this guy's doing what we're doing. Aaron Ng (03:56.429) for builders, but in that legal space and for others in the legal space as well. think what you educate also helps some of the younger lawyers, as you said before, these pod and things like that as well. So you've got a real, I think, attitude for creating a legacy with what you're doing, not just the next transaction. Oh, 100%. And realistically, it's a bit of a catch 22, because like my... goal was obviously to build long-standing clients. But at the same time, if I do my job really well, they're not going to need me. So, yeah. But I've just, I've focused on here building that long-term relationship, you know, and with a lot of the good clients, like they have my mobile, they bring me on weekends if need to, obviously they understand that there's that boundary. So I'll take their call when I can, but you know, I'm happy to have a chat, even if it's just something to ease their mind. And I find that's the biggest thing with having a lawyer that you know, or have in your back pocket. And a mate actually told me that yesterday, he was also a client. He's like, you know, this is the main reason I ring you. Well, main reason I have you on retainer or whatever it is, is just I ring you, you go, we do this, this and this. And like my stress levels go from here to here. And that's. That pays for itself. Yeah, you did it for me yesterday. Yeah. I sent you a quick message about the pod that I ran. I'm like, hey, Damon, is that all right? And you were just like, you cool man. I see a lot of this, you know, everything's okay. And I was like, same sort of thing. I appreciate it. And it's just the support. I appreciate all that sort of thing. And that's why I'm wearing your shirt today too. I appreciate that. I don't know if you sell these as merch, but if anyone... No, they're not sold. They're just given to clients, referrals, supporters. Yeah, you can't buy them. They're just given to people who I think I kind of align with or yeah, the said clients or referrers. We've seen me wear it around. So you see it pop up on the Good Builder podcast a lot. Well, mate, thank you for telling us a little bit about you and you know, how you go about Odyssey Legal. But could you tell our audience a little bit about what you specialise in Odyssey Legal? What are the things that you can help builders with out there? Aaron Ng (06:00.737) where do you start? It's basically everything. So when I because my background is litigation disputes, I was planning on essentially just kind of mirroring my background or what I've done at other firms and just deal with disputes once they've gone wrong. ah but the more once I got started with Odyssey Legal, I realised that I actually really like dealing a lot with the front end of the business and you know, stopping disputes before they happen. And you know, speaking of that made us like that earlier, he was one of the people that really just kind of clicked in for me because I essentially came aboard, clean up all these disputes and we sorted out all the front end and back end stuff to the point where he rang me in December and said, like, we're good, like no disputes, cashflow is good. And then they've just launched like a second kind of joining business that runs with their main one earlier this year. And I was like, that's it. I love helping clients and businesses reach their full potential. And I was like, So to kind of provide clarity to it, yeah, I do a lot of the business law services, but yeah, a lot of the background litigation disputes so can, you know, deal with the front end before it goes wrong and deal with the backend once it does go wrong as well. Yeah, wow, that is so cool. So, okay, because, you know, obviously I'm not a legal professional and while we've got a legend like you on here, mate, but like, so you can help builders. sort of set those foundations, make sure they've got everything in place so that it prevents things from happening. I'm, you know, I'm being very cliche here. Prevention is better than cure. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. It's how do you do that? How do you work with them in that way? It's really a number of ways. And it's funny because even though you've got in organisations like master builders and HII, which have really good templates, a lot of people either don't use them or they don't rely on them. So when they find themselves in a situation, the homeowner is acting up or anything like that. They don't rely on their suspension clause. They don't rely on the notice from any breach. They don't do the variation. And then that's when they find themselves in the hot water. part of, guess, the content as well is trying to teach builders that it's okay to use the contract. Like it's there to protect both parties. It's not going to damage your reputation or you're not going to look bad because you've protected your interest and you've protected your business. Like it's, that's what the contract's there for. Aaron Ng (08:17.455) as well as, trying to move people across to actually using proper contracts. I think there's still a lot of people that kind of use the old templates or they use handshake deals. And it's like, well, then you find yourself in hot water because then you're chasing payment and they go, where's the contract? Yeah. Yeah. And I suppose a lot of the difference too, between, you know, the HIA master builder contracts and the service that they provide in yours is a much more customised personalised services seems rather than just a e-library or e-doc limitation of templates of contracts. think is the difference. Yeah. And a hundred percent. And the thing is, I prefer to build the relationship rather than take the money. So nine times out of 10, I have no issues with the HIA Master builders. I like their contracts. I think they cover the builders really well. So if the builder comes to me and goes, I want a contract. can go, well, it's going to cost you this much. you could just, if you're a member it's this amount. Like it's going to save your fortune. But I'm like, what you need to do, and this is where a lot of builders fall short is the admin side of things. The paperwork is where they get stuck. whether it's a commencement notice, a variation, an extension of time, that is, I'd say where 90 % of the issues arise. So that's what you can support them with. Yeah. And again, it's something that performance documents are available through master builders and stuff. It's just trying to educate the builders to say, Hey, look, use them. Yeah. You even set up or, know, we can discuss setting up automation process to say, Hey, look, this change to have your reception, send this out, do this, send this out. Once you get in a bit of a flow and you work out that you know these processes are in place to give you proper protection so that way you're not at the end of the bill chasing 60, 100, 200 grand or fighting over some sort of minor defect or an extension of time just because you didn't do the paperwork. It's just simple things I think change a lot. Yeah, absolutely. Well, there was an example here on the coast. You might've heard of it, Damon. Aaron Ng (10:14.253) Did you hear the builder that built for the builder was using a master builders contract or had access to the E-Doc library or whatever it is. Consumer contract, the end consumer contract, I think it is. They didn't, because there wasn't that, I guess support like you provide and I'm not bagging master builders, but the documents are available but you use them as just as you said. So this builder built for another builder. They did a handshake and the builder who he was, the client said, don't worry about that document. You and I are both builders. We don't need that document. He didn't do it. And that made him not have to be liable for the final payment. Yeah, right. And he didn't pay. Unfortunately, it's yeah story here all too often. It's like, oh, no, no, you change that. We'll change this, this, this, that's fine. And we'll fix it up later. Comes to, you know, payment. Oh, we didn't agree to that variation. That's what happened. Yeah. And that's why I love what you do. And I think that every builder needs some sort of support. whether it be you know, a huge amount of hours or it be a small amount, just have someone there that can guide you in this space because it's really, it's it's it's sticky even myself, I think I talked about it on the podcast the other day. And that was my, my marketing business that I had. Yeah. And I had a contract and you know, and I don't know if it was watertight. So you know, we're going through a, you know, probably gonna end it or bring it over to you, we're going through a dispute where, you know, we're They're coming back to us the people that we're going for and our lawyers aren't helping us But they're you know saying that there's all these little things in the contract it and I'll be honest that the contract was pretty much done by myself Yeah, yeah, so that's what you find it fall over and then that's that's tens of thousands of dollars into a small business It's a lot of money. Oh absolutely and yeah, that's Aaron Ng (12:10.893) Another reason why I really love the value side of things is because a lot of small businesses like myself included like I'm only really fresh as well if I didn't know the contracts myself and or have a background in contracts like it would be very difficult and So I am in addition to everything else I do trying to do a bit more of a webinar series because as you said it's not necessarily that They always need lawyers per se in their back pocket. Like it doesn't hurt to have a lawyer on call, but it's just about properly educating them on going, hey, look, this is what this clause is available to you. In this circumstances, do this. Don't, you know, be, and I think this is another issue with a lot of builders too, is a lot of people are too nice. They go, oh no, the client's lovely, they're this and that. I don't want to ruin that relationship. You're not going to ruin them. It's a contractual right. Do what you need to do, protect your interests first and then go, all right, we've got this protected. Now let's negotiate. Let's be, you know, reasonable and reach a resolution. That's exactly what happened to me. exactly what you said there. I had a really good relationship. Sorry to talk about me on this one. It's not about me, it's about you builders out there. But you know, we had a, I had a really good relationship, seemed lovely, I talked about it. I thought we were nearly best mates. We were going to lunch and then, bang. you know, and wasn't looked after myself. yeah, mate, if you do that webinar series, you can guarantee we will back you on we will pump it out through our platform I'd love to team up with you on it and we can use the studio and put it out there. That would be really cool. And maybe a small nominal fee for you, mate, for your experience. No stress at all. I haven't put that out for free because it's it would do the world of good because that's the thing. It's you know, like, even when we're arguing with QBCC, you know, complaints are made and we got up trying to knock down the merits or the penalization and stuff like that is, it's always just paperwork or being too nice. So just if we could educate people on that, that would do the world a difference, I think, which is, know I'm talking myself out of the job here, but. That's why we love you. Yeah. Because you're honest and it's, I don't know if you talk yourself out of a job, mate. I think it's more trusting when people tell you what to do and how to, Aaron Ng (14:19.659) You know this sounds bad, Damon, but how to almost... You're trying to educate people to get rid of you. 100%. As bad as that sounds, yeah. Okay, this podcast is about honesty legally. No, it is, I love it. I love you for life. And that's why we connected, mate. And that's where we saw, that's what Renae saw. And that's what I saw. And a lot of our builders when actually few guys out there, Craig and Steve and you guys out there, when I said we got this guy on, they sent me, he's really interesting. Interesting, like the way you go about stuff. So that's what we got you on, man. I love your attitude. And I think that makes it think it's a kind of very Well, at least in my opinion and who I've spoken to, it's a very fresh approach to a very mundane and boring industry. As bad as it sounds. You know. I no interest before you. I don't blame you. I struggle to have interest some days, but it's, yeah. You look at, well, you can't even see half the other firm socials because nothing's there. It's, you know, there's articles and that's it. So I guess me personally, I've been trying to do it yet to stand out. but also be kind of my authentic self. Like people don't need another guy in a suit. They need someone who's just gonna be like, right, this is what you need to do. But also be someone they're comfortable with and not necessarily intimidated or think, you know, there's a stigma and there's usually a stigma, know, know, lawyers, some lawyers put themselves on a pedestal to their clients. So I was like, as my own brand and myself, I'm like, I don't want that. I want to remove that. So. Dressed down, got my tattoos out, got my merch on. was like, I want to remove that barrier to go, I'm a human, I'm here to help you. Let's see what we can do. Yeah, I love it. And that's when I also, I keep going on socials, but then I saw your tats and then I saw your fight game and I saw all this and I'm like... Aaron Ng (16:10.509) Yeah, he's someone our builders need to talk to. He's going to relate to our builders and builders are going to relate to him. And then let alone the advice, as I said, you know, we would approach other builders around not bagging any but the advice that you were giving out and some that they had come back with, I was like, this guy knows his stuff and it's done in a way that our builders are going to understand. talking about that sort of understanding and some of those issues out there. What are some of the bigger issues you're seeing right now? Is it a roll out of, roll off of what happened in COVID and customer disputes? I think it's, yeah, I'd say it's still bit of an ongoing effect. Yeah, okay. I think a lot more homeowners are very cautious nowadays, whereas- You've seen that, reckon. 100%. I think pre-COVID everything was hunky dory. And then post-COVID everyone's seen that. the obviously industry is going under. So they're more money conscious more. And frankly speaking, COVID did bring out the woodwork some obviously unsatisfactory builders by all means, obviously I've acted, I've acted both sides homeowners and builders. And it's definitely shone light on people that weren't necessarily complying with their obligations either under the QBCC Act health and safety, anything, any number of things like that. And it's kind of just made it more public, I think. This is fascinating that you've worked on both sides too. It's cool. So I think it's given me good insight of, you and the reality is, I think even though post COVID has put a big pressure on it, as simple as it sounds, doing a really good job to like the proper standard will set the builders apart 100%. because the disputes I've acted for the homeowners, the builders just weren't up to scratch. They weren't doing the work they were supposed to do. They weren't doing it properly. You know, they were trying to cut corners. So then when we got to the end of it, there was, think the last, I had one recently and a QBCC report had, I think 90 defects on it. Wow. We can cut this bit later on. Yeah. I'll just put that in there. Aaron Ng (18:20.919) They're not local, they're Brisbane, I think that one was for. No, I don't want to cut that bit anyway. I'm gonna, what I'm about to say. yeah, okay. Yeah. And you can answer it or you don't have to answer it, Damon. But my perspective is the bar's pretty low. in the home building industry and in a few aspects in terms of even some of that quality assurance and craftsmanship to the business side of things, which is what we try and educate them on to become better builders. Your thoughts too, mate? Do you see a bit of that out there? Do you see there's a few cowboys and... Oh, 100%. That's what we want to get rid of. Like we are the good builder. As I said, we are positive, but it's good to get this. No one's ever spoken about this on the good builder. And I love it, mate. I'm happy to speak about it too. I think we need to. the thing is, you know, doing what I do, I do get an insight into both sides. So it's not necessarily like I'm pro builder, I'm pro homeowner. like, I just want good standards for both sides. So everyone, you know, the builders get good business, the homeowners get the house that they dreamed of. Like, it's a win win for everyone. But a lot of people I think look at it as what can I take out of this situation rather than how do we win win here? love it. love it. Wow, that's fascinating, man. So some of the builders that you're seeing out there that is it Just defects mainly, just totally, are they getting to them? Is that the biggest thing that they're getting pinned on by consumers? Not necessarily. There's obviously a plethora of things, things dragging on for years on end without any actual progress. So I had one probably a year or so ago. It was four years and they were only up to, I think, just after the frame stage. But no communication, no extensions of time, just essentially ghosted the client. until we essentially come on board and started relighting the fire. Holy shit. So those sort of things are really concerning, especially when you look at the current government grants and anything like that. Because what a lot of people don't actually know is if the build's not done in that time, you've got to pay that grant back to the government. Aaron Ng (20:18.485) And I've had a few instances where that's occurred and now I've just gone, well, we can't do anything. Like we should have done something a bit earlier. I'm sorry. Obviously acting for the homeowner in these circumstances. I'm like, we should have done something a lot earlier because now you pass a date and we can't extend that. You can't do anything. You've got to pay that back. Unfortunately. I think we could talk for days. I think there's a lot of things. just minding my head. I could give you a whole list of issues. Yeah, every day of the week. So could go on and on about it. about, I was really interested in because I am from that marketing background. the protection of your reputation. You know, I always used to say that when I used to run GJ Gardner Homes was that, you know, all we wanted to do was become the most reputable local builder in our local community. So we were hell bent on protecting it, but we did come into issues where Google reviews happened and we didn't know the customer or we thought it was a competitor. Could you just talk through some of the stuff you did? You might have pre-recorded it, but what you did yesterday on Instagram, I think it was, and LinkedIn, it was cool, man. Yeah. And it kind of goes back to what I said earlier, is, you know... protecting your interests won't ruin your reputation, but in circumstances where people have taken defamatory or made defamatory publications or statements about you through reviews or any other sort of means, there is action able to be taken. And there is actually a bill currently to amend the defamation legislation that allows it, allows a person who's looking to commence proceedings to apply to the court for say Google or Facebook. Aaron Ng (21:54.773) to disclose the details of that anonymous post because that's usually been the biggest issue is tracking down who actually did it. Do know what my job was? Like one of my jobs at GJ Gardner because we wanted to become the most trusted builder was to hunt down the negative reviews, find out what customers they came from and allocate them to the franchisee or if not, try and get them off Google if they were not correct. Phenomenal man. Yeah, and in recent times it seems to be a bit of, well, there's two real things as you know, Probably the first one is the extortion. Hey, you fix this or I'm giving you a terrible Google review, which is just ridiculous. And then the second one is like planned group attacks. So I've seen a few of those in my time where I was involved in one, they rubbed someone the wrong way and then it's just plethora of 10, 20 Google reviews of just negative. And it's all the same speed or just reworked. And it's like, well, that's obviously not a proper Google review. I was working in my previous business for a big builder in New Zealand and we should get them to talk to you. Actually I will, I'll make contact with them and get them involved with you. Yeah. Lovely builder. I think just due to some relationships within the ownership of the business that kind of looked at it differently. But they're great builder, great business, second biggest franchise in New Zealand. And there was a customer and I remember we battled it for, we battled it in terms of, I was trying to take him offline and I was like, man, come on, get this offline. And you'd see all his family jump in. would be in community boards. It would be in the particular builder's page. It was on product review. It was on Google. We were just hammered. We didn't know what to do. We didn't know where to turn. We didn't do anything. So what we tried to do was use digital marketing SEO tactics. Aaron Ng (23:39.727) which is horrible. Yeah. And just try to drown those reviews. if you, won't name the builder, I love the builder, but if you look them up, you'll always see those reviews. Yeah, right. Yeah. I've acted for a builder recently where pretty much this whole year, the homeowner has basically been doing that. Every community knows what they can. Every time someone does a post, Hey, do you recommend, well, what do you reckon of this? Or can anyone recommend a good builder and he'd be tagged in it? And then she jumped straight onto it to the point where obviously we went through the process of issuing initial concerns. notice, we reached an agreement and she signed an undertaking not to do anything further, still went back to it anyway. But what a lot of people don't realize is that when it's consistent harassment, it actually can be a criminal charge. wow. So it's I think it's a federal charge, using a carriage service to menace or ass. So when it goes to a point where it is consistently just and like some of the reviews, was, you know, terrible, like you deserve to be in hell, you're scum, all this sort like not even about the business anymore, like just personally attacking them. And then they went to the police and they were like, yeah, this is not okay. And so the police got involved in that one. This chat is cool, man. As I said, we're gonna have you back on and chat, because we could just chat on that subject. you know, every builder I talk to, that is such a concern for them. If you look like a lot of builders turn off their Google reviews and turn off their Facebook reviews, I Metricon did it for a little while. Metricon may even have their Google reviews off. I know the Metricon guys really well, I apologise if I'm wrong. I'm gonna leave this in here. But I know for a period you guys had your Google reviews off because you were getting bad Google reviews. know the guys. And that's a shame. And it's well, and I think it's a shame and not a shame depending on whether they did a good job if they did a bad job They deserve it. But I think there was a lot of this hate coming out Yeah, it's one of those kind of catch-22 things is is it real? No Aaron Ng (25:41.261) is it more authentic to have the bad reviews up or to get rid of them? Because a lot of people, as you mentioned, your job was to just deal with them. People look at it and it's business. You're human, you're not gonna be perfect 100 % of time. The business is gonna make mistakes. Obviously as a new business, can affect it, but is it such a bad thing that's gonna cause such detriment to where? And I think for me, I like to be pretty transparent with clients and go, Is the outcome you're chasing really worth the cost you're be spending on it or could you invest those costs back into the business to rebranding, do some marketing and take the attention away from that one particular Google review. Yeah. you're a legend. You don't even want their money. Yeah, I I love it. But that's, that's, they're the type of people we want in our community. Authentic, trusted. give you the best advice because there are going to be situations where they do need you, And when they don't need you and you tell them they don't, when they do need you, damn sure they're coming back to you, man. Because I'll be like, that's the guy that never fucked me over. Really? know, put it any other way. That's what I'm hoping to build because otherwise I'm just talking myself out the job again. I love it. I love it. think what you do is really good. And as I said, if this chat has been, well, I didn't expect the chat to go in this sort of realm. I was just going to kind of introduce you to the community, but there is so much value in everything that you'll just say. Good advice in the litigation stuff and also the review stuff. They're so important. I see that so much. But now in terms of a good builder, I guess, what do you see? Well, I'll ask you what a good builder is, but what do you see a good builder that has, that is legally ready? How do you say that? That is ready, you know, they're going to, they're minimizing their risk in litigation. What do you see that builder sort of doing? How could they set themselves up? Yeah, yeah. So it obviously starts with your foundation, which is your contracts, your policies, employment contracts. If you've got subbies, subcontractors, independent agreements, all that sort of stuff, just preparing the foundation. Aaron Ng (27:54.365) is kind of crucial. Because if there's a gap in one, then the foundation is going to fall like any kind of sturdy home. So setting themselves up from the beginning of getting all that in place, using the proforma documents if necessary, or if, for instance, HIA must be able to start to have something, just getting something prepared. then going from there. And then as well as just following, like setting up, sorry, not following, setting up processes. So going through the contract, understanding what your rights are going. All right, if we don't hear from, know, the homeowner doesn't pay us and it's been a month. suspension clause or suspension notice or notice to breach. You have to be fairly timely, don't you? And stick to the process. With things such as extensions of time or variations, yeah, you got to do it. So I think under the master builders and HIA, it's generally about like 10 business days of becoming aware of what the delay is. So you miss that. And you know, there has been plenty of instances I've seen where they've tried to throw it in later. And the lawyer on the other side is like, what are you doing? Stop wasting your time. So yeah, there's all lot of things that where timing plays a crucial role, especially when you're starting a new job, whether it's commencement notice, QBCC, consumer guide, all those sort of things, just making sure you essentially chicken going through a checklist and it would save your business, the world of drama, just doing simple steps. And I think I mentioned it earlier, admin. is 90 % of the issues I see. They didn't do a variation document. They didn't do an extension of time. Now they're claiming liquidated damages. They didn't issue the final defects document of practical completion. And now there's a whole, it's been two years and now there's a whole plethora of defects that weren't discussed. just, yeah. So foundation processes. And then I think probably one top three I'd say would be just transparent communication. And I think I've done a probably a reel on this particular topic. Aaron Ng (29:49.491) when the builder just stops communicating or ghosts the owner, they're going to get emotional because they've invested so much into this house. They need emotional and get stressed. And all of a sudden what could be reasonably fixed or reasonably agreed upon, negotiated, resolved is now a huge problem. And the homeowners aren't going to take anything less than blood to put it simply. So, there's been a few instances I've seen that and it's something that could have just been forwarded just going, Hey, look, you know, we're just doing this, we propose, you know, this, this, or just, know, just a simple touch base message to say, Hey, look, stock is delayed, something like that. And it doesn't even have to be from the builder. You know, they can have, obviously they'll have admin, they can have this, just some automated messages that go out to say, Hey, look, we're just keeping in touch because XYZ happened. We'll issue the appropriate document shortly once we work out the full delay or something like that. And in terms of that, sorry to cut you off, but do you, do you, um, Do you provide that sort of guard rails and framework for a business if you're working with them, setting up those foundations where you kind of go to them and say, Hey guys, you know, this is what you need to do. These are the time lengths and then they can kind of go on their merry way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we we can work with the business pretty much for whatever they need from the legality side of things. Process wise, it's obviously we can give suggestions and whatnot, but it's for them to work out what suits them. Cause what might work for one builder doesn't work for the other. So it's just trying to. at least guide them on what processes they should have in place to save them a hell of a drama down the road. And then for them just to implement that and you know, that may take some time as well. you know, obviously we'll check in and just go say, Hey, look, you know, what's going on with this? We implementing it. Are we doing this? If not, why not? What's been the cause of the delay? Like, you know, we're trying to make sure your business is growing the way it should be protected. So that way you're not necessarily having to deal with the legal dramas you can just focus on building the houses, focus on bringing the clients in, leave the other drama to us. If there's any builders out there that are thinking about this, so what will be the first area to review? Would it be those contracts, like you said, that foundational stuff, go on and get you in or have a look at it and just see if you need help in that space. Yeah, it's maybe the case that a lot of people are members of, know, HIA master builders already. So it's just understanding what Aaron Ng (32:02.829) the clauses actually are and understanding how to use them properly. So if you are using that, then you know, we don't necessarily need to spend, you don't necessarily need to spend the money to come see me to draft a separate contract because you've got one you can use. And as I said, I don't mind the HIA and the master builders, they're really good, but it's just understanding how to actually use them, when to use them and using them. Because a lot of people refuse to use the clauses. Yeah. I think it was, I was just actually speaking with an apprentice and he was saying to me, I know what to do, but I don't know why I'm doing it. And I was like... That's cool man. Like how self aware of that guy to say that to me. Yeah. And he was, cause I think he went to a job and he was saying like, I know what I need to do to do this job. the lady asked me why, and I couldn't answer the why. And I think you need that understanding. And that's why I love the support or, or, or I advise that you've got to have someone in your corner that can give you that understanding. So you know the why behind it, because otherwise it just becomes, you don't understand it. might not do it. Yeah. That's the thing too is, know, people when they don't understand the issue, either the incorrect document or they issue the incorrect reasoning for that document going out. You know, I've seen people make up random breaches and chuck it in and noticed a remedy breach before. And I looked at it I've gone, I don't understand what's going on right now. So having to at least- Yeah, I think Chat G GP played probably a big role in what they pulled through because it was interesting to look at and I was like, yeah, no, you should withdraw this pretty quickly and we should sort it out again. I love it. I love it. And there are a lot of chat GPT lawyers. Do you see that much? All the time, especially with defamation to it's becoming so interesting. that, because that's pretty interesting. What other things are you saying? Aaron Ng (34:04.557) change from a legal and compliance perspective in construction. You talked about the reputation stuff, Damon around, you know, that this can be a criminal charge if it becomes harassment, that, you know, you can go and approach Meta and Google to get the person's details if you need to contact them, which is interesting, man. Is there anything else that's going on out there, Not so much in the legal space, but I think there is still a lot of lack of awareness around the BIF Act or understanding how to process like a payment claim or subcontractors claim. Cause a lot of people and they'll go see other lawyers and they'll go, oh, just do a letter of demand, do this and that. It's like, well, no, you had rights under the BIF Act for a payment claim. And if you've gone through the proper process, know, one, for instance, if you've done a payment claim, they haven't done a payment schedule and response. And then you commence proceedings. That person can't file a defense. So a lot of people don't know like a lot of those simple things. And then they go see kind of other lawyers and lawyers go, Oh, I'll do a lot of demand, do this and that. And it's like, well, now you've missed the timeframes to do those steps, which could have saved you a fortune and saved you a lot of time because it's a lot quicker process. And similar with, you know, subcontractors where you're doing like insurance jobs and stuff like that. And, potentially the builder goes bust. You could still potentially go after the principal who is the insurer and things of that nature. I think just educating. A complete understanding of everything would be the main thing I'd say. Other than that, there's not too much going on the legal side of things. It doesn't change too quickly. Yeah, but mate, you're a weapon, mate. Like, I love that you just give out this advice. That's what I mean, like, it's just so cool, Damon, the way you... that you put it out there and educate people, man. Like just exactly what you were just saying, they just putting it out there. It's not, well, like it's good. It's, you the information's readily available for people. It's just putting it in a way, they just go, this is what you can do. And as I've obviously grown better as a lawyer, realised that, you know, people who don't need seven pages for legal advice, like yes, as a lawyer, have to do that because otherwise they'll run to the court and say I was negligent. But what they want is, all right, Aaron Ng (36:17.357) What's the issue? How do I fix it? What are my risks? Three clear things and you can generally put in bit of, know, try and do a bit of an executive summary of advice. So just being clear and being transparent and sometimes it might just be a quick call to say, Hey, don't do that. Changes everything. So I've never been one to try and hold back on advice. And that's why I do obviously the initial consultation as well. Cause there's a lot of people that come to us that don't necessarily need a lawyer or as you know, potentially not commercially viable for them to need a lawyer. So I just go, look, you know, this is what you can do. Obviously I can't give formal advice, but I can give you guidance and go, hey, look, this, this and this, if it's still not working out after that, then we can have another chat. And you know, if you do need a lawyer, come back to me then. So I'm just, my sales job is just not getting work. So I'm doing well. You're a different kind of lawyer. Well, I'm going to get you some work. want to outbuild, cause I want you community out there. Honestly guys, if you need a lawyer and it's why we got you on here, like honestly give this guy a chat. You know you're cool man and like you're the stuff you put out there. I reckon a lawyer don't put it out there because they want to charge for it. I know it seems really bad on being like a prick. Oh, it's a hundred percent. Even when I was doing my marketing, I tried to do a bit of marketing training when I first started. You're phenomenal there. they talk about, you tell them the why, the when, or whatever it is, but you don't tell them how. And I'm going, well, what's that? I can charge this person. You just told them how the whole podcast. Yeah, exactly. I'm supposed to avoid that, but it's like, what's the point? Why do I need to be secretive? And if they really want to find it, they can find it. So why can't I just give it to them in a concise . Yeah. And you still need someone to enact it. Yeah, exactly. And that's why honestly guys, honestly, like, damn, this has been frigging, I didn't expect this. was like an introduction podcast to our community. We're going to do a lot more. We've got a lot to talk about. But this was an introduction podcast just to talk broadly about, you just gave. Aaron Ng (38:21.165) $10,000 worth of legal advice because I'm noting it. This is recorded. So you're an absolute legend. And I think on that point of information is the biggest thing where AI is never going to take over. And you know, people always talk about AI taking over lawyer's job and you know, there may come a time there won't. You know, I've spoken to a few lawyers about there'll come a time where AI you just feed the evidence in and they'll make a determination because they'll be well aware. I'm not in that industry. So that's interesting. But it will never be because it can't implement it so it can give you advice and say hey this this and this and well actually I think they've restricted it now from doing that recently I that was last week but they can't implement it and The interesting thing about AI is that, it's not proper AI at the moment. I've talked to a few IT people about this because it still requires the prompts. Whoever's putting in the prompts still needs to know what they're talking about. The second thing is it draws information from public information. And a lot of what we do happens behind the scenes, whether it's negotiation, whether it's informal documents, whether it's all that. some court proceedings or QK proceedings don't necessarily get reported. So it's not publicly available for chat GPT or whatever else. So there is that big discrepancy of people going, oh, well, AI said this. since I won't feel they're wrong. I can give you three cases to say they're wrong. Good to hear. Again. Amazing advice, Damon You know, because I do see so many, I've spoken to builders and you know, they'll have a customer complaint when named the builder and they'll just put it through chat GPT and say, act like a lawyer and send back an email. And then you see someone that's still got the dashes and the emojis in it, the hyphens and you just like, yeah, come on now you've got to put in the no US writing and remove dashes prompt. Aaron Ng (40:08.847) understanding how to use it properly. Like I use a lot for marketing or, you know, some of my reels or editing and putting together some scripts because, you know, I have ideas in my head, but I can't necessarily get the words out properly when I'm trying to think of content or captions or real ideas and stuff like that. I'm like, but you're still guiding it with your expertise. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and for a lawyer, as I said, you produce a lot of content. So it's good to have a little hand, you know, to get stuff sorted out. I'll do the same. And all I do is content. We, use chat GPT a lot. We do check it because I've used it once in an article and it put out a quote that wasn't from the bloke. I've moved over to Claude.ai at the moment. Oh, is it good? It's like, I still go back and forth. Like one of the bots in ChatGPT was developed by an entrepreneur that I follow that's directly related to social media content. So I still use a bits and pieces for that particular bot, but a lot of like- A lot of the like kind of longer form content or some tightening with the captions and stuff I'll put through Claude A hour because it writes it much better. And that was actually a recommendation from a friend of mine who's business coaching and she's yeah really recommended it. So was like, I had a look into it. I've also heard Claude, I think it's Claude. is better for research. I've read on Reddit, someone, can you believe everything on Reddit? So far it hasn't given me some random case that it made up like chat GPT so it's doing better already. Well, mate, this has been a pleasure, but I've got a few quick fire questions that I bring on you because I just have loved this chat and love to get to know you. Number one favorite sport. What do you do outside of law? At the moment, probably nothing, just parent. Four and six months now. So trying to get over that newborn toddler, baby stage. So yeah, the time between running the business and parenting, I don't have a lot of time, but I still try to get the gym when I can. Trying to get back into Muay Thai and potentially considering BJJ. A friend of mine has been pushing me into it. Aaron Ng (42:16.651) but I had a bit of a break because I sprained me bloody MCL while doing sparring. So it put me out for a few months. So I'm trying to build back up and get back into it. But yeah, those sort of things. Love. Well, my background is kind of basketball. Would you believe it? Interestingly enough? Yeah. I played that for 12 years. Yeah. At a high level. Like obviously in my teenage years early 20s nothing too wild I love basketball even being 5 foot 4....that song, you know that song, I wish I was a little bit taller, I wish I was a baller, then yeah after our first kid I think I was he's probably one and I was weighing 112 kilos 110 kilos and just heavy. I just need something different. I need to change and went to a Muay Thai gym, free trial up the road, died, but like fell in love with it and just ever since then I'd love to go back into it. And I think I ended up losing like nearly 25, 26 kilos from that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were a fella. And I've even got bats at home for the kids. Well, for all you guys out there, I said to Damon before this pod, we're going to go out there and do a video. Stay tuned for that one, which leads me to my next question. What are we going to do with this day? Surely not. What are we going to do with this day? We're going to give away my Tyson glove. What are we going do with it? David question number two. Should we, we're trying to figure this out guys. We were either going to do a social campaign, but it's pretty valuable. I think it's worth a bit 12 and a half grand or something paid for it at an auction. Um, what could we do? Oh, either. Well, if you're looking at donations, at least we could donate to some charity. I think maybe between us and I can erase the money and give it out to someone. So stay tuned for that one guys. My next one, mate, favourite food. Where can you go to lunch next time you're around? That's tough. I never thought I was a foodie or I never thought I was a of a food snob or a coffee snob, but since being on the sunny coast, I've definitely got a bit of a palate. Yeah. I'm a sucker at the moment for a good market bistro steak. market bistro Can't go wrong. With B NI I'm at the See restaurant every week and they've always got good food, so I can't go wrong with SEe restaurant either. Yeah, yeah. Aaron Ng (44:27.605) But other than that, I'm usually pretty simple. I like a good burger. Good, Snitty at the pub. Yeah. And my last question, mate, you know, we're called the good builder. What do you think makes a good builder? tough question. It is. I think obviously just doing the works that you say you're to do. to the standard that's going to set you apart from the plethora of builders out there that cutting corners. And I think I mentioned it, just open communication. People don't understand or don't realize how much a simple message, a simple email can just settle everything. Like before I came here, like I've got a pretty busy afternoon. I just send out like three or four emails to say, Hey, look, I've got busy meetings today. I've got this, this, and this. I'll get to it this day. You manage the client expectations. You bring their stress levels down because they know you're still thinking about them. So just simple things like that. I'd say, you two things, communication, doing the work to a good standard. You are completely correct. And I don't say that on a podcast, because I talk a little bit about in building guys that, know, we used to do this customer experience program, what disappointed the customer really, and what made them positive, two things, not getting the job done, right. And the biggest thing, communication, 80 % of it was communication. And I used to just go, my And I'm not saying I'm the best either. I make lots of mistakes in communication. think I've done a few misses with you actually. Which is a bit awkward. It's as simple as that, isn't it? Like a lot of the customer complaints, so I'd give us three out of 10 for a build, but it wasn't the quality of the build. It was the experience of the communication. And it was like, gosh, flick an email, send a text to WhatsApp. I don't know, but do something. And it doesn't even hurt to even pick up the phone too. It's something I've realised, you know, even with, you know, the free consultations that I do, if I'm busy or I had a consultation plan, like I'll give them a call and just say, Hey, look, I'm just giving you a call to apologise Like I was planning to have the consult with Aaron Ng (46:33.391) all this court stuff just come up and like I had one the other day when I was out because a video because was doing them with the videographer and whatnot it ran a bit longer than anticipated well so I was there I was like oh wait and it quickly need to give this guy a call and he's like I've never heard of a lawyer or I've never spoken to a lawyer who's done that before and giving me the heads up to say hey look can we just move it like my bad That's cool. And that's that's customer experience. And that's shows you actually care for your clients, mate. And that's what we got you here. Now, we did do the last question. This is my last last question, guys. How do they get in touch with you? And this is probably the most important question. So How do they do it Damon? Anywhere you can type Odyssey Legal, you'd probably find me. I've worked pretty hard to make sure I'm accessible everywhere. Because that was all my marketing strategy was just pure guerrilla warfare, Odyssey Legal, Odyssey Legal. Otherwise, yeah, on the website, socials, Instagram is probably the main one I use more than anything. Otherwise, yeah, call the office, flick me an email. As I said, I'm usually happy to have a chat. If it doesn't warrant needing a lawyer, I'm happy to have a chat and just go, Hey, look, These are the things I probably recommend you should just implement just to save yourself some drama and save yourself, pay me some cost. It's so cool. Well, you'll also find Damon and Odyssey Legal on our partners page. I'm going to chuck you up on our partners page, goodbuilder.com.au and I'll put all the links. if I wanna put your email so you don't get a heap of emails, but I can. Reception email there, that's fine. email, I'll put everything, all the contact details under there. All you builders out there really, we've seen a lot of stuff happening in the industry which really can destroy a business from that legal perspective. It's been a fun pod, but it's a really serious one too. When you actually listen back to it, and I'm sure you've enjoyed it, there are a lot of lessons in this podcast that you guys should really have a look at because it could bring you to your knees. And I don't mean to talk negatively, Aaron Ng (48:28.847) But on the flip side, it can also make you fly and be such a sustainable business and a safe business that you know everything started. That's what we're about, man. Hey. 100%. I love the tagline is like, you know, scale with confidence. Yeah. You set it up right. You can scale with confidence without a drama in the world. Yeah, that's it. Well, thank you very much, Damon. Thanks for having me. You're absolute legend. We're going to have you back on and we're going to talk Google reviews. Give away this. Who ever wins this... That's going be pretty cool. I love Mike Tyson That's pretty cool. Yeah. I don't know how you ended up giving that up. Yeah. We'll see. If it's for a good cause and it educates people and gets people to understand who you are and what you do, happy to give it, mate, because I'm so passionate about this industry and I'm so passionate about protecting builders. And I think that, you know, one of the best ways to protect yourself is make sure you've got a legend like this bloke in your corner. So I'm happy to give away a glove just to get some people to understand that that's what you need to do. So, thank you so much for your time. You're a freaking legend. And yeah, let's do this in a couple of weeks time. and getting that ring and. Yeah, sounds good. I don't want to do anything here, smash me, but we'll have bit of fun. Yeah, that sounds good. Thanks for having me. You're a legend. That's it,