Latest / Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community / Differently Wired | Autism in Community With Dr. Harold Park

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Differently Wired | Autism in Community With Dr. Harold Park · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

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What does loving your neighbor actually look like? This
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is Journey with Care, where curious Canadians get inspired to
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love others well through real life stories and honest
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conversations.
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Welcome fellow sojourners to another episode of Journey with Care. This
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is Johan along with our co host, Wendy. Hello.
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Hello. Before we get started, I wanted to mention for those that
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have been enjoying Journey with Prayer, our corresponding prayer
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journey to every episode that we do just to kinda take it from the head
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to the heart, that is on its own separate podcast feed, so you can
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go find that on your favorite podcast player or check the show notes, and
0:45
there will be a link there for you to find it. Journey with Prayer, make
0:48
sure you go subscribe and follow that as well on your favorite podcast player.
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So we are in our second episode of our series,
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differently wired in community. Wendi, you wanna you wanna
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kick us off on this second episode? Yeah. We're in our series
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differently wired in community. Last episode, we had pastor
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Corinne Thomas with us from Center Street Church in Calgary to kick off
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this series, Differently Wired in Community. And today, we're gonna keep
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going diving into more stories and experiences of
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people differently wired. And when we talk about differently wired, we're talking
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about neurodiversities or disabilities, mental illness. It's gonna be a a a
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wide range. We're not going so much onto labels. But
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looking at the exceptionalities that are within our communities, within
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our churches, and we wanna look at how do people
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care differently and better together, and how can
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we care intentionally for those with exceptionalities. And
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with us today, we have a special guest, doctor Harold Park,
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who also happens to be my husband and cofounder of Care Impact.
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Welcome to the podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you. It's really great
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to be back. So for those who do not know you, Harold, can you give
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a little bit about yourself and what you do?
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Sure. So I'm a psychotherapist. I've been in the field of
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counseling for approximately 20 years. I work with individuals,
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couples, and families. I work with people from a very diverse
2:14
background. Currently, I would say I meet with probably about
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20 people a week, here in Winnipeg
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and also online. And tell us a little bit more
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about your background. What got you into counseling and
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a little bit of your educational background. Sure. So
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I studied for my master's, completed that 20 years
2:37
ago, and then I did a doctorate in marriage and family
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therapy. Currently, I'm working with
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a psychologist here in Winnipeg, as well as 2
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other organizations, where I do online counseling and
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coaching. Well, I know firsthand that you're
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curious, you love learning, and, you have put
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hours upon hours upon hours, years upon years into the
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practice that you currently have. And most recently, you
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have added to your doctorate some
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training in some neurodiversities, being able to do assessments and
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things like that. Can you tell me a little bit more about that recent
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interest of yours? I guess it really started from,
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our family where we discovered that we do have
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neurodiversity with our kids. And just through that
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journey, you and I, we've both traveled in this journey
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together. I've really wanted to learn more about,
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ADHD and ASD. And so
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that led me to getting some professional training in these
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areas, and that's something that I really feel strongly about, which is
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just a strong family connection to the neurodiversities.
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Yeah. And so for those not familiar with ASD, that would be
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autism spectrum disorder, a superpower that we
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know very, very personally. And,
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you have been able to help other people find their
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own diagnosis. And why is it important that as you're
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helping clients in your office and online, why is it
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important for people to discover their exceptionalities?
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Is it just for a label, or is there something more? Well, you
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know, when people come in to see me, oftentimes, they're
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struggling in life in various areas. So it could be a
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relationship. It could be work. It could be
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self care. And as we start talking, oftentimes,
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there are symptoms that really are very much aligned to
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the neurodiversities of ASD and ADHD.
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And so as we look into those areas, then it really
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opens up a new lens through which a person can look at their life,
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and people can find strategies, tools, and resources
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to be able to better, cope and to manage,
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with the symptoms. And, I found it very rewarding to be
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able to help people, navigate this area because,
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you know, unfortunately, sometimes these things are not discovered until
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later in life. And people, you know, they say, you
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know, I wish I would have been diagnosed earlier. And so,
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oftentimes when I'm meeting with university students who are struggling with their
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academics, they're having a hard time focusing,
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they're being inattentive in their schoolwork.
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Through the work that we do, we're able to help them to
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define treatment for this. And it's very fulfilling to see
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that that life can be better through this awareness.
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Yeah. And I've heard comments from people who have received diagnosis, a
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sense of relief in saying, oh, I'm not broken. I'm just I'm
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just differently wired. We sometimes liken it to Apple and Android.
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Just different functionalities and and different preferences in
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how we go about life. And and when we talk about neurodiversities,
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we're also not trying to put people in a particular box. The the
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saying with autism goes, when you've met a person with autism, you've met one
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person with autism, meaning that everybody is still very
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unique. It is a spectrum. And, I'd love to dive in a
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little bit. I know you have a lot of expertise
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in a lot of different diagnoses, but particularly autism
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today, To learn a little bit more about that, how did
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you come personally to learn about autism
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and go down that path? Well, it all started,
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with our son who was having some struggles with
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school, with anxiety, and, we brought him
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to a an anxiety clinic here in the city. And
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through assessments and things like that, we discovered
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that he does have autism, high functioning
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autism. And so it was through that discovery, which was
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approximately 8 years ago, It was I think it was about 7 years
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old. Through that discovery, you know, there's a
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saying, the apple doesn't fall far from the the tree.
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So we kinda looked into actually, you kinda helped me
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to look within myself and and look into the possibility that
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I may also be on the spectrum. And so that kind of led me
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down a journey of discovery. And through that,
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we were able to contact a psychiatrist who
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was able to provide that diagnosis. So in getting
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the diagnosis, how has that helped you understand
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yourself as a father as well as a leader
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in your home, as a husband? Well, I think the first
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thing which was a struggle, was acceptance,
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because with any diagnosis, you're wondering if it's
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true, if it's not true. And there there was a bit of
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wrestling early on, and so I had to to work through
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that. And I think that as I was able to
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become more aware and more educated about,
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ASD, and I was able to look back on my
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life, it really helped me to see where my
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struggles in life came from. And through that, I think a
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key part was having a level of acceptance
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that I'm wired a certain way, so I felt like
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I could have a level of acceptance. And I also knew, on the other hand,
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that I could grow and learn, find some strategies,
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be able to accommodate in certain areas. And so
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I think just having that combination of acceptance for who
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I am and the ability to know that, you know, I'm
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still able to learn new strategies of parenting,
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of being in relationship. So I think those things
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have really helped me to to progress as a as a person.
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And for myself as a wife and mother
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of people in my family on the autism spectrum, for
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me, it was helpful in the way to have better compassion and understanding on how
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to relate and
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now see I now see there's a lot I had to learn.
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I thought I knew what autism was. There's a classic kind of sense of that
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you see it in the movies or in media or a certain type
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of, characteristics, but you don't know it until you're
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in it. And even then, I didn't know it until I it was
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introduced to me by by professionals. And as I explored
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it, I found such relief. I said, you know what? There is
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hope. I'm not alone, and my kids and my husband aren't
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alone. And there's actually strategies on how we can do things
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better, and I need to adjust. I need to adjust what I thought was
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normal, so that we can accommodate. I was outnumbered
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in, 2 biological children diagnosed on the spectrum
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and a husband. And I'm like, this is so foreign to me, but now I
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have language, now I have skills, now I can identify with
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others and learn some strategies to to move forward in a good
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way. And it really was a strengthener for our family and our
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marriage, when we came to accept and understand
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what it is we were dealing with. Maybe I was odd. You know?
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I I see such exceptionalities, beautiful things, people on
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the spectrum, such intelligence, and such, gifts
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and abilities and straightforwardness, no beating around the bush. There's
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such beautiful things that I've learned that, wow, our society would be
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better if we created some belonging for everyone.
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Okay. So, Harold, you mentioned how you're able to look back on your
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life after receiving that diagnosis, and it helped you to understand
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yourself a little bit better. Do you have any of those stories that come to
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mind when you look back on your life? Anything that you wanna
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share as you were reflecting on that time?
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I think just looking at my entire life, from
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elementary school up to
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my work experiences, in my twenties,
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I think a common theme that I felt is I just really
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felt like I was on a different wavelength
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than a lot of other people. Like, I just couldn't feel like
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I I fit in when people were having conversations.
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It was hard for me to catch up on conversations
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within a group setting. Social interactions, I
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think I was very challenged with, so I didn't have
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friends for most of my life growing
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up. And so it just seemed like, for me, I didn't
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feel a sense of belonging within the school
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community or within the the workplace.
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So, Harold, I've had some fun conversations with your mom, and we've
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reminisced about your childhood. And she really identified with my
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my parenting journey saying it'll be okay, Wendy. I understand
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because I I raised Harold, and he was actually harder to handle.
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Can you share a few, stories that stand out
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about what was it like? You were so meek and mild. That's what
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everybody sees right now as this psychotherapist
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sitting there helping so many people and calm and
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mild, but that's not who you were. That's not the picture that your mom painted
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of you. Can you give us a glimpse of who you were as a
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child trying to adjust in this weird world?
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Yeah. There's quite a few stories where I just really
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I was, I guess, unique, I guess, is one way you could
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call it. There was this one situation where, my
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mom, she cut my hair, and I didn't like
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the way she cut it. This was when I was probably about, oh, maybe
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10 years old or so, and so I really got
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upset. I was quite angry, to the point where she
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had to call the police to control my behavior.
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So I had a a hat on at the time when the police came
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into the living room, and I remember the
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the police officer, pulled up by cap and and
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said, you know what? It's not that bad. And so he tried
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to calm me down, but I did have this, rigidity
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with things. I just had a hard time if things were
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different than what I was expecting, if it was unpredictable,
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like, a different type of haircut. I really had a hard time with that. And
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so that's just one story that sticks out from my childhood.
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Yeah. Meltdowns are a real thing. I remember your mom talking to me about it,
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and and she did seek help. And she tried to get parenting help,
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psychotherapy even back then. This is, like, 40,
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50 years ago. And what saddened me about her
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story, her side of the story, was that the professionals just
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said, you know what? It's it's your parenting, and they couldn't see it for the
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diagnosis that it was that, she felt so bad that she
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wasn't doing enough. And I know that feeling as a mom, just feeling you're not
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doing enough when you see these meltdowns and this rigidity. But
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knowing what you're going through, it makes a huge difference. And there were
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other stories as well. I remember, the the story
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about you selling raffle tickets. You had your independent
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business streak in your own little world that you had,
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crafted up. You went door to door selling
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raffle tickets. You wanna tell about that? Yeah. So I was
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really focused on having pizza. And, my
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parents, they were busy with their business, and so oftentimes, I was left at
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home. And so I was probably about 10 or 12 back
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then. And so I really wanted a pizza. I had no money. And so I
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was thinking, okay, how can I get enough money for a pizza? And so
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I thought, hey. Maybe if I I'd made these raffle tickets, and
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I I put on there that I'm giving away a a TV,
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and I went door to door and sold these raffle tickets. Maybe I can raise
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a few bucks to, order a pizza. And so I
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got some paper together, cut it up, and, you know, put, like, on their
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name, address, phone number. And I said on there that I was giving
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away a TV. And I went door to door, and,
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I Wendi to this one neighbor across the street, and she said to
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me, do you have a license to do this? And so
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she was pretty skeptical about the, the handwritten
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pieces of paper that I was trying to, put off as
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tickets. So, yeah, that was just one of the antics that
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I I did when I was younger. Well, when pizza is your
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hyper focus, you do what you gotta do and, love the tenacity.
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It's it's so funny. Also, you didn't get introduced to
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church or you weren't a part of a church till later on in
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life, but there was a hyperfocus that connected you to a faith
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community that every summer, they knew you would be
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around. Can you tell us about that hyperfocus and that passion
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and exceptionality you had that connected you to a local church?
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It's not a bible study. Yeah. So when I was in my
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high school and early university years, I, was
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connected to this church, and it was really a very loose connection. It
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was connection through softball. And so every
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summer, they would start up a softball team to play in
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this church league, and people in the church, they
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knew. When I showed up in the summer, they they knew they
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said, hey. It must be softball season. Harold's here. And so I would
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go to the church for just couple of months during the summer. My
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main objective was just to be able to, you know, show off my
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ability on the field that I wasn't really focused on going to
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church service. But that was just really my
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my focus back then was to to show that I could play and
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hit some home runs. And, obviously, it did create
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some kind of community for you. I know relationships had not been
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your strength growing up, but you did feel that you could show up there
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and find belonging, hitting a a baseball,
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and, getting involved in the church in that way. Did that have
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any impact on your perception of the church or your
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view of God or faith? Looking back?
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Can you see how that may have influenced, or was it strictly
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softball? Well, I think looking back and looking at it
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through this lens that I have now, I realized
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that back then, there was an expectation
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to be a certain way, to look a certain way
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in our youth group. At the time, I was, in the
17:41
high school and young adults groups, and I realized that, you
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know, there was an expectation that, you know, you kinda had to
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be social, you had to be interacting. And I really
17:52
wasn't so good at that, the group dynamics.
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I, you know, I really had to force myself to try to
17:59
have relationships. And so that was a struggle, but I
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knew that because I was good at softball, I would have a
18:07
level of acceptance and respect, and I felt
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like people accepted me because of
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that. And, you know, if it wasn't for softball, I don't think
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I would have entered that church because I wasn't a very
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social person. Social interactions were very difficult for
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me. And so looking back, I realized that,
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you know, people who have ASD and are trying to
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feel a connection to a church, it could be very difficult
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unless there is some sort of connection point. Yeah. And and one
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could say, well, you don't look autistic, and
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and people wouldn't know you are on the spectrum. Actually, most
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people, family and friends listening to this here on the episode
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are probably not even always aware that you have this diagnosis,
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because you don't look autistic. Have you heard that saying before?
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And does your experience of church still is it still like
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that? How is your church experience today? I think
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that, you know, for the most part, in my
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experience, there hasn't been much change in the church environment. I
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know that there are some churches out there that are aware
19:18
about neurodivergency. But for the most part, I
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think that there is a certain expectation that we do need to
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fit in a certain way, that there's an expectation that
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the leadership, they know what, neurodivergent people
19:33
need or want. But I think there's still a lot of
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ignorance and a lot of misunderstanding
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about being neurodivergent. And so I think
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there is still a need for many of us to put
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on this mask so that we could feel like we're actually
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fitting in, that we're part of the crowd, that we feel like we
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belong. And, you know, when you put on a mask for so
19:59
long, it can get stressful. It can get tiring.
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It can create depression, anxiety, a reduction
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in self esteem. There's so many things that can weigh you
20:11
down when you put on this mask for so long. So I think for myself,
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over the years, I have been putting on a mask, you
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know, in various aspects of my life. But I think that in
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the church in particular, I think that, you know, it
20:26
has been a struggle sometimes, fitting
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into some of the expectations, that are
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present in the church. So how have you done that? How have you
20:36
found a way to fit into some of those expectations?
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Well, I would say, you know, with the church that, we've been
20:44
attending, I, in particular, like to sit
20:48
in the back of the church, the back row. Just in
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terms of being in the front, I I have a hard time. Just
20:55
there's some anxiety if I'm more up in the front versus in the back.
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I I can feel more settled and more calm, in the back.
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So that's one way. You know, I do have a desire to connect with
21:07
people, but for me, I find 1 on 1 is the
21:11
way that I feel most comfortable. If there's several
21:14
people talking in a group, I tend not to want to
21:18
join in on those type of conversations. But if there's just
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one person, I I feel like that's more my my
21:25
comfort zone. I'm gonna go back to when you talked about how
21:29
having that connection point is what actually got you in
21:33
the church. Not every person on the spectrum is
21:36
gonna like baseball is their connection point. So how does
21:40
church create those connection points for others on the spectrum to
21:44
be able to come into the church, not knowing what those connection points
21:48
could be? Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah. That's a good question.
21:51
You know, I think when you think about how god has created us, how
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god has wired us, we have our different interests.
21:59
You know, some people within the church may be very focused on
22:03
theology, and that could be a good connection point,
22:07
if there's certain, opportunities to connect with people who who
22:11
wanna just talk theology. There could be other types of,
22:15
interest groups within the church. You know, I think there's so many
22:19
creative ways to connect people into the church.
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And so I think it's just a matter of having open
22:26
discussion about, you know, what are things that people are wanting? What
22:30
are things that people can be drawn into? And I think that
22:34
that could really be a a springboard to a lot of
22:38
potential for for people to to connect. I mean, I guess
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that's the same for anybody whether you're on the spectrum or not. But
22:45
knowing the diagnosis of ASD, are there any things the church could be
22:49
doing to make the church more accessible to those that are on the
22:52
spectrum? Yeah. I would say, you know, there's
22:56
there's a a variety of different things
23:00
that can be helpful. Like, for 1, sensitivities
23:04
to certain sounds, smells, environments,
23:09
you know, even things like just the smell of the building,
23:13
that can be triggering to certain people. It can be
23:17
very difficult to enter an environment for people who
23:21
are on the spectrum who have certain sensitivities. So I would say just
23:24
being aware of that and creating some opportunities
23:28
for, discussion about these things. Like, would it be a
23:32
possibility, let's say, to have a room where people who are
23:35
sensitive to sounds, they may want a more
23:39
quieter place to be able to to focus on their
23:43
relationship with God. So I think the key would be just to
23:46
really create an environment of inclusivity
23:50
where people worship and connect to God in different ways.
23:54
And if we can talk about those ways, and I think that could
23:58
really help us to, you know, to bring the body of Christ together.
24:03
And I guess it requires a certain sense of felt safety for
24:07
people to be able to open up to what they actually need.
24:11
You were talking earlier about, having a mask and
24:14
learning to in order to get by in life, not just in the
24:18
church, but in general, society sort of places these expectations. In
24:22
order to function, you have to wear a mask and and act
24:26
neurotypical. And so I'm just wondering, what ways
24:29
have made you feel safe with other people, 1 on 1 or in a
24:33
group? How have you felt safe with others? How do you know when you
24:37
can drop that mask? How do you know when you can be vulnerable with others
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and say, you know what? These sounds bother me or or these, if we could
24:44
do it in a certain way. Wendi do you know you feel comfortable to
24:47
to voice those things out? I think for me, it
24:51
would be if I feel like there would
24:55
be a level of acknowledgment, validation
24:59
that this is my reality, that these are the
25:03
challenges that I may have, these are the sensitivities that I may have,
25:06
and to at least have a a sense that the person,
25:10
or the leadership of the church is willing to listen
25:14
to to what I would have to say. So, you know, I think in terms
25:18
of leadership, church leadership, just to
25:21
have an openness to hearing from people who are,
25:25
neurodiverse. I know in a previous church, I
25:29
did see that there were several people who were in that category,
25:33
and I could tell that it it wasn't quite a good fit for
25:37
them. But the question I asked was, did they have
25:41
a feeling like they could talk to the leadership, talk about
25:44
any ideas, talk about how they felt being in the church,
25:48
just to have your voice heard, I think that would make a
25:52
a a big difference, and that could be a a very
25:55
helpful catalyst for change. And I think it's important
25:59
to note also that people on the spectrum, it doesn't
26:03
equate to a a cognitive delay or anything like
26:06
that. There may be some challenges or
26:10
disabilities attached to it, whether it's, like, auditory
26:14
processing or sensory things that they they struggle
26:17
with. But so often, more times than not, people
26:21
particularly it's not a diagnostic, but it like, high functioning,
26:25
meaning they're auditory. There there's a high cognitive ability,
26:29
an exceptional cognitive ability that doesn't always get
26:33
recognized within greater society. You will
26:37
see things. Our son will see things and
26:40
process things in a higher level often that,
26:45
the typical audience or or person you're talking to isn't
26:48
even thinking. I think of one example of our son
26:53
who was struggling through childcare,
26:57
struggling through, the Sunday school because they
27:00
were just talking about very simplistic Jesus loves me. And all of
27:04
that was true, except for he was like it was kinda like he was done
27:08
with philanthropy Jesus. He wanted to ask deeper questions on the
27:11
supremacy of Christ and the flood
27:15
and creation, and he had deep complex questions that I would have maybe
27:19
been asking to my professor in seminary, but he was asking at
27:23
4 years old. And, I think there's there's a
27:27
huge opportunity when we listen to people on
27:30
the spectrum on what their perspective is, no matter what their
27:35
IQ is, but to hear a different perspective. This is there's
27:38
such beauty in a lot of those perspectives that I
27:42
don't always think of. I think that we may sometimes
27:46
think of people, we stereotype them as, oh,
27:50
you don't look like that person on Rain Man. Oh, you're not
27:53
hyper in a certain way. You know? I think that it's important to
27:57
realize that, you know, there are highly successful
28:01
people who have neurodiversity,
28:04
Elon Musk, Bill Gates, people on the Shark Tank.
28:08
So we can't we can't just go by by how they look. There there's
28:12
a lot more to it than just appearance.
28:16
Harold, what about not just having the church be accessible, but what
28:19
about being able to contribute in the church? Have you found
28:23
that the church has been able to create space
28:26
for you to be able to contribute with with the giftings that you bring?
28:31
You know, this is something, I think, partially, I need to
28:35
be responsible for in realizing how I'm
28:38
wired and how I'm able to contribute to the body of
28:42
Christ. And so, you know, just looking at some of the gifts and how can
28:45
I use the gifts to to grow the church?
28:49
And so, you know, something like research. Like, for myself, I really
28:53
like doing research. Oh, does he ever? Yeah.
28:56
Golf balls, golf shafts. He knows how many divots in
29:00
the golf ball and what angles they are and what, like, he he
29:03
researches. It's one of his superpowers.
29:07
So things like that. Research is just one of those things. But for
29:11
myself, like, being very methodical and
29:14
having a desire to do things by the book, and
29:18
I I don't like surprises or changes, so kinda doing
29:22
more routine things. So I think there's certain things within the church where I
29:25
feel like I can use those type of abilities.
29:29
But sometimes, you know, the challenge is with the
29:33
ability to not do so well with social
29:37
interactions. That can be a challenge. So when you combine, you know,
29:40
the the social interaction challenges and then trying to use
29:44
your gifts, it can be a challenge. So it has been difficult,
29:48
but I think that it's not just about the leadership making
29:51
changes, but also for me to be able to be
29:55
assertive and state that there are some challenges
29:59
here, but there are some strengths as well that I can contribute
30:02
to body of Christ. Well, I've seen
30:06
you light up in the way that you have your
30:10
counseling practice and interact with other people 1 on
30:13
1. And as you, you have helped
30:17
people for years in the prisons as well, people in very
30:20
difficult situations, or some people would say I would get too burnt out
30:24
or too emotionally invested and and have
30:27
compassion fatigue, and yet you were able to, day by day, routinely
30:31
get up and face difficult, difficult situations and
30:35
journey through difficult pathways with people in some of the most
30:39
hopeless situations. And yet I think that was
30:42
one of your exceptionalities. You were able to show up in ways, and people might
30:46
think, could somebody on the autism spectrum who has relational
30:49
difficulty truly help and counsel other people, and yet I see you do
30:53
it with exceptionality. Can you share a little bit of what it's like to
30:57
be a psychotherapist in a relational way, working
31:01
1 on 1 with people and yet facing your own challenges
31:04
relationally? I think part of
31:08
my wiring has helped me to endure
31:12
the challenges that that I face through the, interaction with
31:16
people in the prisons, people going through difficult, marriage
31:20
issues. I think for me, the way that I'm wired,
31:24
I'm able to have empathy with others,
31:27
but I still have a level of grounding.
31:31
And it's hard to say whether it's definitely due to
31:35
ASD, but I feel like I don't take my work
31:39
home where it affects me in my home life. Like, I've never
31:43
really felt burnt out in my life. I don't know
31:47
specifically why, but I feel like wiring probably has
31:50
something to do with that. But in terms of how do I
31:54
interact with people, I think that as you grow
31:58
as an individual, you learn strategies. And, you know, when you
32:02
go into your masters and your doctorate program, you learn different, you
32:05
know, counselling techniques and things like that, learning about empathetic
32:09
statements. And and so there are some of those social
32:13
things that I've been able to pick up over time. You know,
32:17
certain situations are still difficult. Like, for example, if I were to
32:20
go out in public and try to start up a conversation with someone, that would
32:24
be a little bit challenging, not as much as when I was in
32:28
high school, for example. You'd be resting on the coach for sure after
32:32
that. Yeah. It it does take extra energy.
32:35
So I can do those things, but there's internally,
32:39
there's more going on. It's like an engine that's revving
32:43
at a higher RPM for me, and so I do get more
32:46
exhausted. But I think within a counseling environment, I
32:50
have had the training. I have had the experience where I am
32:54
able to know, you know, what are the, ways to
32:57
interact with people. I've learned various models. Through my
33:01
interest in research, I've been able to study different techniques
33:05
and different things. And so that side of me, that analytical side of me
33:09
has given me an ability to
33:12
process things and to kind of see where things are
33:16
going. So in for example, when I meet with a client,
33:20
I'm able to look into, okay, what are the steps
33:24
that I would need to do to help this person get through, let's say, depression
33:28
or anxiety? So there's that very methodical
33:31
research based approach that I can use. But I also know, you know, that's
33:35
something that I learned during my master's program that I do have a
33:39
tendency to go to the logical rather than the
33:43
emotional, side with people. And so through that type of
33:46
feedback, I've had to work on my, on myself to be
33:50
a helpful counselor, to know that I can't just
33:54
go to, you know, asking questions about what do you think about
33:57
this? What do you think about that? But I need to ask questions
34:01
like, how does that make you feel? And so that has been something
34:05
I I've learned throughout my my career as as a
34:08
counselor. I'm thinking about the lay pastor, the
34:12
pastoral teams. How do they effectively pastor those with
34:16
neurodiversities when they haven't had any special training
34:20
on how to relate? They haven't had mental health training, or they they don't
34:23
know anything about ASD. Do you have any suggestions of things that they can
34:27
do to effectively pastor those living with these
34:30
neurodiversities? Just thinking about the church. You
34:34
know, we are a very diverse body, and so
34:38
it's difficult for a pastor to be on top of
34:41
everything out there. But in terms of being
34:45
knowledgeable about things such as trauma
34:49
or poverty or neurodiversity, you know, I think it's just
34:52
trying to make an effort to read up on these things. So learning
34:56
about ADHD, ASD, and really
35:00
breaking down some of the stereotypes that a pastor may have about these
35:04
areas and really looking at stories
35:08
of of people who are, going through these
35:11
challenges and to just really learn what is it that would be
35:15
helpful for them in a church environment and just really being willing
35:19
to to be open to learning. I think that would be the
35:22
first step. And as a pastor does this and as
35:26
they are able to reach out to people who have neurodiversity,
35:30
that in itself will help those people to feel,
35:34
a greater level of acceptance, and they will feel more
35:38
welcome in the community. So just having a healthy curiosity about
35:41
it would be a very, helpful step. Can you think of
35:45
any practical things that they can do to create that sense of belonging
35:49
within the whole community? Because they can go study and they
35:53
they can learn about these things themselves, but how do they create that sense
35:56
of belonging within their whole community? Yeah. I think there are certain
36:00
things that can be done. For some people like
36:04
myself, I don't like to be a part of a big crowd.
36:08
And so maybe having a bit more of a one on one
36:12
type of opportunity, if a pastor is able
36:15
to take some time to reach out to someone 1
36:19
on 1 versus trying to have a big group
36:23
environment. Because I know the churches can have functions where
36:26
they do things in large groups, but this may be
36:30
discouraging or or challenging for certain individuals. So maybe
36:33
just a smaller environment would be helpful,
36:37
something that would reduce anxieties for
36:41
people. So, you know, I think there there's different things that can be
36:44
done, but I know that the key thing would be really not to
36:48
assume what people need, but to ask and and
36:52
see, you know, what what would be helpful for a person to really
36:56
connect with with the body. And I wonder too if it's
36:59
not necessarily a specific task
37:03
what to do, but maybe a posture,
37:07
a posture of humility and equality, of a posture of really
37:11
wanting to listen and learn, not as an other, like,
37:14
you're my mission project, and I wanna connect with you.
37:18
But help me to understand, and, what is it that
37:21
makes you light up and truly get at the same
37:25
level, I think, would be go a long way. And I and I think it
37:29
takes off some of the pressure for pastors and leaders
37:33
and just everyday people like myself to not have to have the answers
37:37
or to say the wrong thing and feel tripped up and paralyzed from saying
37:40
anything at all or doing anything kind at all to
37:44
to those around me on the spectrum or with other neurodivergence.
37:49
But to just listen and to say, hey. Like, to normalize it, let's
37:53
make neurodiversity normal. It is normal. It is actually
37:56
more normal than everybody thinks. There's so many people walking around. I live
38:00
and walk it all the time. Right? And I see it all around me, and
38:03
I I don't go around putting labels on people, but I'm like, wow. This is
38:07
really Apple and Android. Like, it is so much around us, and we often just
38:10
don't know what we don't know. But if we could just have a posture
38:14
of humility and just listen and learn
38:18
and just find ways to connect, There's so many ways that we can
38:22
connect and and be curious, like you said, I think is it's an
38:25
adventure. Right? It it doesn't have to be getting it
38:29
right and and walking on eggshells. Humility goes a long
38:33
way. Yeah. That's right. The pastors don't have to
38:36
have all the right answers right away. I think it's a a learning
38:40
experience where we journey with people and get
38:44
to know how they're wired, how they respond to different
38:47
things, and to be able to to work together
38:51
to see how can I, as a pastor, help you
38:55
to grow closer to God in the way that God has wired
38:58
you? Harold, I know we're we're close-up for time here,
39:02
but I would love to pull a thread on what you were just talking about
39:05
now. And what has caused your relationship with God to
39:09
grow? I know you have a had a mentor that has had
39:12
a CareImpact on how you came to Christ, but how has
39:16
your relationship with God been nurtured and developed
39:20
as somebody with autism connecting relationally
39:24
with God? So when I was in my
39:28
late twenties, I was attending church, and I
39:32
wasn't really a fully committed Christian at the time, but,
39:35
during that time they had a mentoring program at the church. And
39:39
thankfully I was paired up with my pastor. And so
39:43
through our regular meetings, he was able to walk
39:47
with me through life issues. I was going through some challenges
39:51
trying to figure out life, trying to figure out, what my purpose in
39:55
life was. And through the one on one time that we
39:58
had, every 2 weeks, he was able to bring clarity.
40:03
He shared insights that really helped me to
40:07
to focus on the giftings that I have
40:11
and to be able to take risks, to be able
40:15
to move forward with those gifting. So what it did for
40:19
me, practically speaking, was it helped me to
40:22
apply for the counseling program here in in the Winnipeg
40:26
area, and so that was a big step. So without his
40:30
support, without his encouragement, without the mentoring,
40:34
I don't know if I would be here today without that. So that's
40:38
why I believe that mentoring, this one on one type
40:41
of relationship can really have a huge impact.
40:45
And, I think that with that, that's something that churches can
40:49
really focus on to have mentoring as a part
40:53
of their, I guess, a way of developing Christians.
40:57
Some really good insights and stories. Thank you so much,
41:00
Harold, for everything that you shared today. I know there's a lot of takeaways, a
41:04
lot of stuff we can chew on, and there's so many more stories to come
41:07
in this series, differently wired in community, and we're looking forward to
41:11
more conversations. Thank you so much, Harold. You're welcome. It's great
41:15
to be here. And I know there are wives out there with
41:19
husbands maybe not even diagnosed or maybe they are
41:22
and moms of children with neurodiversities, I just wanna put
41:26
a shout out to you that, reach out to us. Give me your
41:30
questions. I would love to to connect with you. I wanna give you
41:33
hope. I wanna say there is there are so many things in store for you.
41:37
God has a hope and a future for you, and I am cheering for
41:41
you, and I would love to hear from you. So, listeners, if you wanna
41:44
respond to any any of these episodes, if you have any questions
41:48
or thoughts, head over to journey with care dot ca slash
41:52
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42:10
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42:15
Thank you for joining another conversation on Journey with Care,
42:18
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42:22
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