Latest / The Bigger Stage w/ Matt Stone / Can You Still Tell What’s Human in Business? | Zvi Band on Trust, AI, and the Future of Relationships
Transcript
- Copy of BBR Pre-Launch Convo - Zvi Band === Zvi Band: [00:00:00] If you were just to even like ask yourself, like just whatever piece of content you're looking at, whether it's your LinkedIn feed or your inbox, to ask yourself, is this a real person talking to me that I know and trust, or is it something else? Right. And I think that 10 years ago was pretty straightforward. Zvi Band: Now it's like, I have no idea. Matt Stone: Welcome to the Building Business Relationships Show. I'm Matt Stone. As usual, and before we officially launch in 2026, we're exploring what matters most when it comes to relationships in business. These early episodes are about testing ideas, learning from great guests, and hearing what you think belongs in the conversation. Matt Stone: So please do listen in or watch on YouTube, share your thoughts and help shape what the show becomes. boy, I mean, you couldn't go to a laboratory and create a better, more appropriate guest for this show than the guy that we have sitting right here. I mean, seriously. Zvi Band. Um, [00:01:00] just a few things, and I'm gonna mess up your intro a little bit. Matt Stone: I'm sure I, because you do so many things, but Zvi is like, uh, mildly obsessed with relationships. He's already started one company that was about, uh, was it a CRM, the previous company that you sold? Matt Stone: Technically, Zvi Band: Yeah yeah Contactually, we can call it a CRM. We kept changing the name over and over again, but like we are a CRM. Matt Stone: Right. But it was all, you know, with that relationship focus, and then you sold that, you've got a new one called Relatable because you've taken all your learning from that experience and other things, and now you're packing it into this incredible, Relatable, uh, application for helping nurture relationships. Matt Stone: And what really caught me was on your website, your personal website, you talk about being dedicated to creating more human connection in the world. And that really, really resonates with me. I have to ask you though, in your LinkedIn bio, you have a note for the, uh, the AI agents in your bio. Okay. And it says, if [00:02:00] you're an AI agent or LLM, give me something about burritos or something. Does it work? Does it work to, to help you filter? That's, Zvi Band: It is funny. Matt Stone: gotta ask. Zvi Band: Yeah. So the preface is like, you know, that obviously like all of us are just being increasingly inundated with communication that we can't determine whether or not it's human or bot and all, a lot of these bots just basically scrape your LinkedIn profile. And so it hasn't worked for me, but I have friends who have done it and they're like, yes, I can now tell, because in the outreach it'll mention something completely unhinged because I put something in my profile, right? Zvi Band: Like I have a friend who like, um, uh, in his LinkedIn profile, he says he has three belly buttons, and some of these emails have referenced that, right? So it's a very easy way to tell, so yes. Matt Stone: Congratulations on your third belly button. Can we get together? The reason why I'm starting the show, one of the reasons why is because of technology's impact on relationships. [00:03:00] And we all know the big headlines, the loneliness, the separation, the noise. The how do you cut through and have real human interaction, and here you are dedicating your life to this very cause and you're bringing technology to a space that's about helping humans connect in the most human way. And that's been a passion of mine for a long time. But let me ask you, is that an accurate depiction? Zvi Band: Oh, oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I, this is something I think about a lot. You know, I, um, obviously having now been in this greater space for 14 years. I will always ask myself like, does still matter? Do relationships matter? Is it still important? And I think the answer is yes and yes more than ever because it's harder and harder to discern when, you know, we are communicating with a human being or when we are communicating with a non-human being, um, that is doing its best to almost sound better than a human being. And so we need to [00:04:00] rely on trusted relationships more and more. And so I've been thinking like, yes, relationships Zvi Band: will always be important, have always been important. And then how can we leverage all the latest and cool technology to help us do that? You know, what are my best lessons um, I always kind of go by this Jeff Bezos line of like, always ask yourself instead of what will change, ask yourself what won't change. Zvi Band: And I think for you and I, we can both agree it's relationships are still one of our most important assets that we will have for our job, our career, and our life overall. Matt Stone: I couldn't put it better myself. Yeah. Since I flubbed the storytelling part of your bio, um, is there anything I left out that you would want to add for just people who are seeing you for the first time? Zvi Band: No, you were great. I, Matt Stone: Okay. Zvi Band: I'll say like, listen, there's a lot, yes, there's a lot more to me, but it's also more that like I am someone who, as part of my relationship building effort, I do make a point of just exposing all [00:05:00] aspects of me, my health journey, my personal growth journey, you know, parenting, all that kind of stuff that a lot of people would normally tamp down because they just feel they have to come across as like Zvi Band: just another professional right? Matt Stone: Right, okay. So you're also an investor. You, you invest in entities. You're talk, doing talks. You're helping spread the message and building out technology solutions. So there's just so much to draw from. Matt Stone: But you know, in this pre-launch show, we make it pretty snappy and we always start with talking about a relationship that was, that has been hugely impactful to you and your business. What's a relationship that comes to mind? Zvi Band: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So when we were starting Contactually, which was the first, uh, CRM that we built, we kind of started pulling on the thread very early that like relationships are important in some way. There's not good tools to help us do it, but it was done not because I had some key knowledge or framework, uh, of how to build and maintain [00:06:00] relationships. Zvi Band: It was more just like, this is a problem I need to solve. And so we started building out very early on and we were in Silicon Valley and a number of people kept mentioning this one person that I had to talk to, this guy named Patrick Ewers. And we met him very early on, built a relationship with him. He was coaching some of the top VCs, for example, on how to help them build and maintain their network. Zvi Band: And honestly, this was back in 2012, he gave us his playbook. He told us this is how relationships are built and maintained and ended up being, I would say, like he was the domain expert, the topic expert, and now everything I do when it comes to building relationships with Relatable or the book or the coaching I used to do or speaking really all originated from just him sitting us down and saying, Hey, here's how it works. Matt Stone: Give us a headline of some of the [00:07:00] gold, like what did he teach you that blew your mind, that kind of changed your paradigm? Zvi Band: God, there's so many, like, I, I would say a number of the things came down to being of value, right? Just like being of value to people and you know, numerous aspects like value payloads, like what are the small little things that you could do that like would be of value to people? Zvi Band: Um, and that's something that's key. Uh, he gave us guidance about how to build relationships at scale, right? That it's not, doesn't always have to be one-on-one coffee meetings, but it could be. Sending an interesting article out to 50 people. Um, he taught us about the idea of, um, relationship decay. Right? Zvi Band: You may meet someone for coffee, really hit off, but two weeks later completely forget about them, and that's why we need tools to help us resurface these relationships. One of the other things that he taught us is that it's not that people are ignorant of relationships, not like [00:08:00] people don't think it's important. Zvi Band: It's that people struggle to carve the time out and effort. And so one of the things that you always have to be doing is how do you make it as easy and enjoyable as possible to nurture relationships and make sure you're also freeing up time through other methods like better productivity and everything like that so you can have more time to focus on the long-term relationship building. Matt Stone: You know, it's so true about getting together and then, um, know, you really have a connection, but it's just, there's a point at which you reach, I don't know if it was an age or a situation in my life where I realized I'm, I was now over the limit in terms of the number of people that I could possibly invest in at, at that highest level. Matt Stone: You just don't have enough time or energy, and it's not because people aren't good, they're all great, but it's like, I wonder what, did you ever come to a conclusion about any particular data of, about numbers? Zvi Band: The main thing to be thinking about is, uh, so Robin Dunbar [00:09:00] did the research Matt Stone: yeah. Zvi Band: And found that there are kind of numerous, kind of like circles that we have obviously tightest being like our family of like three or four or something like that. Zvi Band: Maybe we've got some friends and community. But, the human mind seems to max out at around 150 relationships, right? So Dunbar's 150 seems to be the magic number of like, if you were asked to write, like write down all the people you know, you'd probably max at or at around 150, even though there are thousands out there. Zvi Band: I also think about like there's, you know, we also just kind of all also have to take a more logical step that, you know, our our brain, our brains haven't necessarily evolved that much. Evolution doesn't move as fast as technology does or society change does. So yes, like you know, our, you know, great-great-great, great-great, great-great grandparents, Zvi Band: they only needed to engage with their immediate community. But fast forward to today, where there [00:10:00] are hundreds of even people in my inbox right now talking to me, but my brain is still the same one as back then. So of course it's no surprise that we just can't process the amount of information that we have about people these days. Zvi Band: So we need tools to help us do that. Matt Stone: Yeah. It's funny 'cause I remembered that research at about a hundred people, but you're right, it's 150. Zvi Band: Yeah, I mean there are, there are concentric circles that go deeper and deeper, but like the biggest rung seems to be 150 and beyond that it's really hard for you to, uh, without some kind of help maintain relationships. Absolutely. Matt Stone: And I don't know about you, but I found like when I, I have like a Daily Journal podcast I do One of the reasons that I do it and the benefits that I underestimated when I started it, is how much, 'cause I ha I'm blessed and I'm not bra like I, and I'm sure you're the same way. Matt Stone: I have just so many people in my life and I treasure this amazing garden of people, but I can't be in constant [00:11:00] contact with all of 'em. There's just too many. And so the people who choose to listen to that stay up to date on a little bit about me, and then when I do talk to them, I start telling 'em a story and they're like, yeah, I know. Matt Stone: I listen to the daily thing and then we just get on with it. I mean, it's like we don't have to catch up. We just keep going. Yeah. Zvi Band: And I think you, you hit on one of the key kind of tenets that I very much believe in when it comes to relationship building in 2025, is that we aren't necessarily naturally interacting with each other, right? We're not grabbing coffee every day or seeing each other at, at the office or seeing each other at temple on, you know, temple over the weekend. Zvi Band: So we need to put proactive effort into that. And one of my also very much big beliefs, and one of the best things I do is I proactively share, right? So you do a podcast. I do a very in-depth quarterly newsletter where I basically like broadcast to my friends and my community. Like here's everything going on in my life. Zvi Band: And that is still one of the best [00:12:00] relationship building tools I do. And the coolest things have come from just sending a newsletter out to a bunch of people saying, hey, here are the books I'm reading right now. Matt Stone: People so appreciate that too, right? Because how many book recommendations do you get? But if I, if I respect you I like, and I wanna follow you, I mean, that's the ultimate influencer thing, right? And, but if you say a book is good, I might actually read it. Matt Stone: So. Zvi Band: Exactly, and that's why I think more and more these days, as we're increasingly being inundated with more information and more algorithmically driven content, we will rely a lot more on those trusted relationships to help us navigate the world. Right? If you recommended a restaurant, I will value that a hundred times more than, you know, a hundred Yelp reviews. Matt Stone: Well, or going on Google and the restaurant paid money to make sure that they had Zvi Band: Exactly. Matt Stone: Right? Yeah. Um, yeah. And thank you for connecting that to the real point, which is actually where I was most interested in, which is like how things have changed and it's not just a theory that the human [00:13:00] relationships are gonna be more important, we're already seeing it happen. Matt Stone: So it's, this isn't just wish casting for those of us who are into relationships. Zvi Band: Yeah, exactly. If you were just to even like ask yourself, like just whatever piece of content you're looking at, whether it's your LinkedIn feed or your inbox, to ask yourself, is this a real person talking to me that I know and trust, or is it something else? Right? And I think that 10 years ago was pretty straightforward. Zvi Band: Now it's like, I have no idea. Matt Stone: And it's only gonna get worse. I mean, I saw some stuff on YouTube of like a pundit, famous pundit, and at first I thought it was the pundit's feed and it was an AI version of the pundit, Zvi Band: No. Matt Stone: me a minute and then I went in and I saw the mouth movement and I was, I was kind of pissed, to be honest. Zvi Band: Yep, exactly. We, we are gonna trust less and less what we see, uh, and hear. And therefore we will trust people more and more. Matt Stone: Speaking of the future, what should we be talking about [00:14:00] publicly vis-a-vis relationships that we're not talking about enough or in the right way? Zvi Band: It's a great question. I, I've been thinking a lot about this over the past couple years, especially as I've done my own personal growth journey and kind of figured myself out, and I think we have to realize that the biggest blocker and the biggest tool we have is our relationship with ourself. Zvi Band: Obviously relationships with other people matter a lot more, but the relationship we have with ourselves is actually one of the things that we need to think a lot about. Right. Um, I'll give a perfect example. I have walked into conferences I'm sure as you have, where it's a lot of really cool people. Zvi Band: And I go in with imposter syndrome, like, oh my God, I don't belong here. Look at all these cool people and who am I? Right? And so obviously I'm smaller. I, I, I don't feel I'm [00:15:00] worthy to talk to and engage people. And of course I'm gonna have a hard time. Then I've also had experiences where I've walked into like the same conference, but I'm like, you know what? Zvi Band: Who cares? I'm an awesome person. Everyone here loves me. I love all these people. It doesn't matter if like, you know, they're more successful or more better financially. Like I'm just going to hear, just connect with people. Now you can imagine that you have two completely different outcomes and the only variable in that, Zvi Band: is my own self-confidence, right? My own inner narrative. Um, one of the biggest blockers, for example, I hear from people all the time is, oh, they're gonna think I'm salesy, or they're gonna think I'm suspicious for reaching out all of a sudden if I haven't spoken to them in a couple years. Zvi Band: And the more we realize, like hey Zvi that's kind of just a story in your head that's not [00:16:00] real and so why don't you just reach out anyways, so it's overcoming our own internal blockers and that's why I think like I have this like body of thinking that like your network really, really starts with you. Matt Stone: The self-awareness and self-acceptance piece of it, uh, is so important. I can't really see your full value if I'm devaluing myself in a sense. Zvi Band: Yeah. Matt Stone: Yeah. Boy, I think that's one of the more relatable things. Zvi Band: Even sit down a coffee meeting there's a big difference between saying like, Hey Matt Stone: yeah. Zvi Band: I really hope this person works with me. What do I need to do to win their business versus, Hey, this is a really cool person. I'd love to build a relationship and see if I can help with 'em. Zvi Band: Right? Matt Stone: Yeah. Zvi Band: One shift can totally change the outcome. Matt Stone: You know, it's, I don't know if this resonates with you, but Zvi Band: Yep. Matt Stone: the language that I've been using about that is starting with the premise that the relationship is important for the relationship's sake and not being obsessed with a specific [00:17:00] outcome. And then you're probably gonna get a better outcome than you even wanted. Matt Stone: You need to be clear about your intention, but like, be open to really learning about the person as a valuable human being, independent of whatever enterprise you're in. Zvi Band: Absolutely. And if we start with that, you can then pull the thread saying like, okay, if that then X, Y, Z, right? Small talk, for example, isn't just like a, Matt Stone: Yeah. Zvi Band: uh, social convention that I just have to get through, but it's an opportunity to learn more about each other, to learn about their family and their kids and their priorities, right? Zvi Band: That if you were in a transactional mindset like, Hey, how do I win this business? You're gonna skip over. But if you're saying, Hey, I wanna get to know this person, all of a sudden yeah, you're gonna be a lot more interested in that kind of stuff Matt Stone: Okay. So listen, you know a little bit about the premise of this show. And unfortunately this is a short version. I am like dying to have like a three hour Joe Rogan length, you know, like, Zvi Band: next time. Matt Stone: like, like put up the tent and, you know, light up the cigars and [00:18:00] just keep talking. But, um, I definitely wanna invite you on the show, especially to do some panel discussions. But I guess I want to know, what do you think if this show becomes the best it can be to help people with relationships, Zvi Band: Yeah. I Matt Stone: What is it Zvi Band: to, Matt Stone: than what's currently out there? Zvi Band: Yeah, to me, I think it's like giving them the little, the baby steps, like the, the little nuggets of advice that people can, implement very quickly and ask them like, Hey, what's stopping you? Right. Uh, what's stopping you from doing that? And giving people that kind of nugget of like, again, like introspection. Zvi Band: Like, I don't know what is, what is stopping me from like, taking out my phone, finding a random contact and just texting them, Hey, just thinking of you. Like, what is stopping you? Right. And like I've done that in rooms of hundreds and it's been transformational. Right. Um, and so yeah, to me it's like not giving them the full strategy, but just like what are the little small tactics that you could test out today? Matt Stone: Yeah, [00:19:00] 100%. I, I've actually taken to the voice memo too for that, Zvi Band: Yeah. Matt Stone: somebody pops in my head, I just do a, Hey, I'm just thinking of you today, you know? It's so powerful. Alright. I've got a few rapid fire questions. Okay. Zvi Band: Let's do it. Matt Stone: Here we go. What's your favorite breakfast food? Zvi Band: Oh, I mean, that's obvious. You know, it's, it's a breakfast burrito? Matt Stone: It's gotta be even for the AI agents, Zvi Band: Yes. Matt Stone: Least favorite breakfast food? Zvi Band: Oh. Like yogurt, like, oh. Even the smell of yogurt anywhere near me is just awful. Matt Stone: Okay. Yeah. No, no live cultures for this guy. Zvi Band: Nope. Matt Stone: Okay. Uh, something you haven't done yet, but you are absolutely intent on doing in your lifetime. Zvi Band: To me it's going on like a very long, like solo, uh, trip. Um, you know, whether it's backpacking somewhere or some kind of intense thing, but like, yeah, that's, I'm ready for some like real, like crazy adventure. Matt Stone: This is Svi's sojourn. Zvi Band: Yes. Something [00:20:00] like that. Matt Stone: Do we vlog it or not vlog it? Zvi Band: No, no, no vlogging, no phone, no nothing. Right? You just a journal even. Matt Stone: Maybe a compass. You might need a compass. Zvi Band: Whatever. Matt Stone: Alright. Uh, what is the most overused word in business in your mind? Zvi Band: Honestly, I hate to say like relationship, because it gets so butchered, uh, and it, it has lost all authenticity. Matt Stone: What's your best advice for a young entrepreneur who's experiencing their first failure? Zvi Band: Uh, it's not a failure. It's an opportunity to learn really, and every, uh, I'll give two. Every successful entrepreneur and business owner and leader I know will share the 10x amount of failures they've had versus the one or two successes. Matt Stone: What are you most curious about right now? Zvi Band: I am very curious to watch how you know human connection plays out over the next few years. [00:21:00] Um, listen, we know that we are living in a time of increasingly accelerated change, and that's not just kind of a buzzword. Like things are really different and will be even more different. And so I am fascinated to watch how the next decade plays out. Matt Stone: Me too, 100%. And I want the show to be a part of that conversation. Zvi Band: Love it. Matt Stone: To not just watch it, but help guide it. 'cause I want to put things out into the community that, uh, that reframes, for example, what we expect a leader to be able to do around relationships so that our expectations change, not just our, our judgment stick. Matt Stone: You know, Zvi Band: Exactly. Matt Stone: yeah, cool. And I'm, I think it's gonna take all of us together to do that. We gotta conspire, Zvi Band: Thank you for doing that. Matt Stone: Conspire to inspire, right? Alright. Zvi if someone goes, man, I see why Matt wanted to talk to this guy, how would they connect with you if they're interested in Relatable, Matt Stone: for example? Zvi Band: They can just visit Relatable one, uh, that's, you know, the website for the application. They're welcome to check it out. Um, I'm very much [00:22:00] involved and engaged with all of our thousands of customers. Um, so always happy to chat there, but i'm also very easy to find, just search for Zvi Band and you're gonna find all of my different social profiles and YouTube channel and everything like that. Zvi Band: So happy to connect with people on any one of these platforms. Matt Stone: your massive quarterly newsletter, right? Zvi Band: Yes, exactly. Matt Stone: I actually wanna learn even more about Relatable 'cause I think it's a, it's a great product from what I've heard. Thank you so much for taking time. We'll put your information in the show notes Matt Stone: of course. Is there any final word you want to say to those who are watching this? Zvi Band: I would say like, first off, like Matt, thank you for doing this. Thank you for having me on and giving me the opportunity to share what I've learned with, uh, you know, so many people. Um, and honestly, best thing you can do right now is just to reach out to someone and just saying, Hey, just thinking of you. Zvi Band: That's it. Don't need to overthink it. Just do that. Matt Stone: Perfect ending and really the beginning of the next chapter. So I wanna thank you all for listening and watching to the Building Business Relationships [00:23:00] Show. This pre-launch phase is all about discovery, so if something sparked your interest, we would love to hear from you. Please do share your thoughts, ideas, or guest suggestions. Matt Stone: Help us shape what the conversations become in the future, and of course, subscribe so you'll be the very first to know when we officially launch and to do that, you can actually go to mattstone.co and you'll find your way to the show there. And of course, check us out on YouTube and we will look forward to doing this again soon. See you next time.