Latest / The Virtual Couch / Pick Me Behaviors, Emotional Immaturity, and the Cost of Not Knowing Yourself: Is True Honesty in Relationships Possible? Tony and Mackie Overbay Live QA

Transcript

Pick Me Behaviors, Emotional Immaturity, and the Cost of Not Knowing Yourself: Is True Honesty in Relationships Possible? Tony and Mackie Overbay Live QA · The Virtual Couch

0:06
What if he's tripped over that cord?
0:08
Oh,
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I worried about tripping over that cord.
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, the whole night.
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Did you even do it?
0:12
Do I what?
0:13
Did you go live?
0:13
Yeah.
0:14
Oh.
0:14
Are we not live
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now?
0:16
We're
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okay.
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I hope we are.
0:17
There we are.
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Oh
0:18
my foot.
0:18
There we
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are.
0:19
Yeah.
0:19
Get that foot out there.
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Geez, I should have put socks on, although
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I don't think this is the time to talk about this, but man stuff.
0:26
I hear about people wanting people to send them things about their feet.
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That's a thing.
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There's someone I can tell you about that was like that.
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And I'll tell you one day.
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Okay.
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Someday.
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I mean as a, you can probably
0:36
guess.
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I don't know if I could but I will tell you the licensed marriage family therapist
0:41
in me, it is not an uncommon thing that I have people who bring that up.
0:48
, we could talk about that . Okay, so I gotta stay in the frame here as well.
0:50
Hey, everybody.
0:51
Yeah.
0:51
You're far, far away.
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Far far away.
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water.
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What do you think?
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I
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dunno, I'm just asking.
0:57
No,
0:57
It could have been like energy drink and stuff right?
0:59
But it is two propels, one berry water, berry water, kiwi strawberry.
1:03
One berry shaken, not stirred with pebble ice.
1:07
Gotcha.
1:07
Drink a choice.
1:09
Mackey McKinley Mackey over bay.
1:11
Thank you for joining me for this live question and answer.
1:14
Where, uh, licensed marriage and family therapist licensed
1:16
cosmetologist and aesthetician.
1:19
Or we're here to answer your relationship questions.
1:21
I'm, I really enjoy talking about narcissistic traits and tendencies,
1:26
behaviors, emotional maturity.
1:27
We can talk about relationships, although , I'm not your therapist.
1:31
I have to say that this is it's your
1:33
little disclaimer.
1:34
Yeah.
1:34
This is this is just, just a guy.
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Just, just some thoughts.
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Knows some things.
1:38
Who knows some things.
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20 years as a licensed marriage and family therapist has taught me a thing or two.
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About a thing or two, um,
1:45
a thing or two.
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Great.
1:46
Yeah, that's like
1:47
an old man line.
1:47
I'm realizing I'm doing more and more of those old man lines than ever before.
1:51
Here's our warmup topic.
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Well, people come on and you can ask anything at all.
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Please, people ask your questions and we are gonna answer 'em.
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I'm determined to answer your questions.
2:00
We're talking right here, not your therapist but a guy giving you advice who
2:03
happens to be a therapist, but I learned this is where I'm gonna show my age.
2:06
Mackey do you know what a pick me girl is?
2:10
Yes.
2:10
Okay.
2:11
Like how
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does that show your age?
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Because I'm just learning
2:14
about it.
2:14
Oh
2:14
yeah.
2:15
I thought you were saying you knew that from back in your day.
2:17
Like, oh no,
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there was no such thing.
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You're outta your time.
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So I wanna put this pieces together.
2:19
So first of all, tell me what that is Not, and I'm not trying to like, nuh.
2:23
Okay, so what is that
2:25
a pick Me girl is someone that basically just every single thing they do or
2:28
say is to get attention on them.
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. Okay.
2:31
I want to tie di.
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It.
2:33
Does it have to be ditzy or what is it?
2:35
Brilliant?
2:35
It doesn't have to be.
2:35
Yeah, but
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it's, yeah.
2:37
Usually the vi that they play dumb kind of, yes, they do that
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okay.
2:40
Could there be a just a girl?
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Could there be a pick me guy?
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Yes.
2:42
Is that a thing?
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Yes.
2:43
Are they called anything different?
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I
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don't know.
2:44
I never, I feel like people don't really say that, but technically speaking,
2:47
sure.
2:47
Okay, so here's the thing.
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Long pick me.
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, a long time ago, I worked with a woman she was going through relationship
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after relationship, and she said, and I will never forget this.
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She said, I'm really good at getting guys to like me.
3:00
And she said, if I date a cowboy guy, then I've got the.
3:03
Boots and the hat and I've got to go to,
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there's a parks and rec episode about this.
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Is it really?
3:08
Mm-hmm.
3:08
Okay.
3:09
What is it?
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You know, Anne?
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Yeah.
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She does that.
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She dates like she's dating a ton of guys.
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Okay.
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And she literally dresses as a cowgirl.
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Dresses like, gets pink in her hair, gets
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yeah, that's not good.
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All these things.
3:18
No,
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no.
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And that's
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the whole point of the episode.
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Okay.
3:20
But I think it's fascinating though because here's where it comes into.
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My world in the therapy world.
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So I'm trying to help people find out who they are.
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We want them to have a strong sense of self.
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And how do you find out who you are?
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You have to try things.
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You have to go through experiences.
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But if you think that the whole goal of the game is just to get the other
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person, then I have people that basically say, but no, that is who I am.
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I am very good at this.
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So they're trying to come in and say that that is who they are.
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Who am I to change this person?
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But yet they're in seeing me as a therapist saying, why do
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I keep losing relationships?
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And I might be overstating this or overgeneralizing, but when the person
3:56
doesn't know who they are, then they're saying, okay, I can figure
3:59
out how I can show up so that you think I'm this person that you like.
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And it's like, how long can you fake that?
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How long can you fake it?
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Yeah.
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Because if this person is,
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and they're done there.
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Okay.
4:08
Have you, I was gonna ask well, I
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feel like when I was
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younger,
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17, 18, 19, yeah.
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It totally was.
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How do I change myself?
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Oh, somebody said, can I ask a question?
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Person dating?
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Please do ask a question.
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Yeah,
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just comment on it.
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. But a hundred percent.
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. And we've talked about this before where it's like if somebody
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said, have you seen this movie?
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. The answer would just be, yeah, duh.
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Like, of course.
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Or Do you like this kinda music?
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Yeah.
4:28
Duh.
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When it's no, I haven't, no.
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Okay.
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But I don't want you to think I'm not good enough or not whatever.
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. And now if I haven't seen something, I just go, no,
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no.
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And then we went and we all saw the movie Sinners, which has like great.
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Reviews,
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great reviews, and I said, I don't get it.
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It, I know we came outta there.
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I was very front about it and we're, that's, I still don't get it.
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And I loved it.
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I really did.
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I thought it was really good.
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I
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liked it.
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Yeah.
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I just didn't,
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I really, really liked it.
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I don't get the, the hype,
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being honest.
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But that's even a good example . That is a movie , is it's a muse.
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It's something that I see and I, and it makes me think things and
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feel things and wonder things.
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Mm-hmm.
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And you're doing the same thing I would imagine.
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And so then our experiences don't have to be the same.
5:03
Yeah.
5:03
But I like that
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we're still friends.
5:05
Yeah.
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We're.
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Practically related, right.
5:10
Practically.
5:10
Okay.
5:11
Let's get your questions.
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What do we got?
5:12
, I think we have half of the questions so far.
5:13
Okay.
5:17
This is not good TV with us Bosa staring down.
5:20
Oh, okay.
5:20
Do you wanna I'll try to pull 'em up on here too, but what do you got?
5:23
I have half a question.
5:24
Oh, okay.
5:25
Well, gimme the half and I can give half an answer.
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I'm therapy patient.
5:28
Okay.
5:28
Do you hear that though?
5:28
That's a dad joke.
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Did you already said
5:30
No?
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I tune out your dad jokes at this point.
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Okay.
5:33
How dare you?
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Number one?
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But I said gimme half the question and I'll give him half an answer.
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Oh, funny.
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That's not bad.
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. Okay.
5:40
I'm a therapy patient, borderline personality disorder,
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depression and anxiety.
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I'm feeling like.
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The BPD is the most painful is DBT and medication the only hope?
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Oh, that's a great question.
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We got a lot of acronyms flying around there, ? BPD is is
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borderline personality disorder.
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Okay?
5:59
And a lot of times people get BPD they think that's bipolar because
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there's some similar initials in there.
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Big difference bipolar versus borderline personality disorder.
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Borderline personality disorder is in this cluster of personality disorders
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that features such hits as narcissism.
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Histrionic Antisocial.
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Borderline.
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What's
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histrionic?
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Histrionic.
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It's interesting.
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Never heard that in my life.
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Well, when I was studying for , my licensing exam histrionic, they
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would always give a sample question that was more about somebody.
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That was, I gotta not get the shadow band thing.
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What do people say?
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Segs.
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Around, overly flirtatious.
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And it involves trying to convince someone to join you in an intimate relationship
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in order to get your needs met.
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So now the siren song of the borderline is, I hate you, don't leave me.
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It's like this dramatic push and pull.
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And then you've got the narcissist that is, grandiose, malicious, lack, empathy.
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But all these are in this personality disorder cluster.
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And the most fascinating thing, this is why I think this will play into
6:56
this question, the most fascinating thing about a personality disorder is
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it is saying that this is who you are.
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This is your personality.
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So even if you , if you go to therapy and somebody says, okay,
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here's how you, here's normal.
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I'll air quote that.
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But then if you are then saying, okay, just it guy kinda goes back to the
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pick me thing we were talking about.
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Tell me what I need to do.
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Tell me how I need to.
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Act so that I will be viewed as normal in this relationship or in this job.
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But if at your core, at your character you don't really understand, I
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don't even know why I'm doing this.
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'cause to me, I don't think that I'm doing anything that wrong.
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It's like, you guys all don't get it, but okay, fine.
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Tell me.
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Does that make sense?
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I
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think so,
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yeah.
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So it's a trip because it is your core personality now disorder
7:37
sounds a little, little mean.
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Well, yeah.
7:39
Then that makes it seem.
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Rude.
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I mean it's, I can be offended.
7:43
So then their
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question is medication and DBT and DBT is a type of therapy called
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dialectical behavioral therapy.
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And it is.
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And now, and I wanna be so honest, the types of therapy modalities
7:53
that I know, I know well, like acceptance and commitment therapy.
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I can do cognitive behavioral therapy.
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There's some others, in the couple's world, I like emotionally focused therapy.
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I like differentiation.
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But dialectical behavioral therapy or DBT, I don't know enough about.
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But do you
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know what it's like closest?
8:08
Yeah.
8:08
So it has
8:09
like a, a mindfulness component, but also a behavioral component.
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So I know that when I've over generalized it for somebody before that it's saying,
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Hey, we're really not gonna go with your your manipulation, your exaggeration,
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your grandiosity, those sort of things.
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That's the part where it's so can I just get you to come
8:27
back to this present moment?
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And then trust me, let me teach you , the correct way to behave in this situation.
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But then the hope is that as you learn that you're trying to
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integrate it internally to change your character or who you are.
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I do have a document that I think would be.
8:40
Lemme see if I can find it.
8:41
Okay.
8:41
'cause I think it would be good to just throw this out there of DBT.
8:45
Okay.
8:45
Yeah.
8:45
So we've got skill, so DBT it combines cognitive behavioral therapy with
8:50
mindfulness practices and emphasizes a balance between acceptance and change.
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I'm a big fan of acceptance and commitment therapy, and that's
8:56
just saying, Hey, right now, accept the fact that this is how you're
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thinking, this is how you're feeling.
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But you also have a component of that that's saying, and it's not really
9:03
working well in your relationships.
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So that's a big part of, that's hard for somebody that is saying
9:07
but you guys are all wrong.
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And I think I'm right.
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But then that mindfulness practice, it does bring you back into this presence.
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And with some acceptance.
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And then what do we have to do to change?
9:17
So it has training and mindfulness distress tolerance.
9:20
Trying to deal with your discomfort, emotional regulation,
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and then basically the old Dr.
9:25
Phil adage of, and how's that working for you?
9:28
The way that you're showing up in your relationships.
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But DBT usually it's pretty intensive.
9:32
I've had a couple of clients that have gone to, it's not necessarily inpatient
9:36
treatment, but it but it's a pretty rigid outpatient treatment where you do certain
9:40
things every day and you're logging skills
9:43
. So I don't look at that.
9:44
I'm saying I don't know enough about DBT, but it's definitely
9:45
something to look into.
9:46
So, back to their question.
9:47
Yeah.
9:47
Yeah.
9:48
DBT is considered and medication.
9:50
So Medication, yeah, absolutely.
9:51
'cause The way you're interacting with others causes you a great deal of anxiety,
9:55
and then when you have anxiety, your heart rate elevates, your amygdala gets
9:58
hijacked, and then you end up being very reactionary and then all of a sudden
10:01
it's like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
10:03
But then when you're angry and you're flooded, you're being really mean.
10:06
Then you know you're gonna try to maybe work on your anxiety, or you might
10:10
need an antidepressant that's gonna flatten out your affect a little bit.
10:14
And it's that thing so you can access those tools that you need.
10:17
But, I did, we get the same part.
10:18
So is that the
10:19
only hope?
10:19
Oh, great point.
10:21
So I work a lot with the world of, I won't say personality disorders
10:25
'cause this is for anybody new.
10:27
My, my big platform.
10:29
Go check out my podcast.
10:29
Waking up to narcissism, for example.
10:31
And the number of people, or percentage of people that would be actually diagnosed as
10:35
narcissistic personality disorder or maybe even borderline personality disorder is.
10:40
It's pretty, it's relatively small, depending on the study
10:42
you look at two to five, 6%.
10:45
I typically say that if you are actually a diagnosed narcissist,
10:48
you're not going to therapy.
10:49
So the person here that's saying Hey, I'm diagnosed as borderline
10:53
and so I'm in therapy and I'm just.
10:55
Curious what will help.
10:57
And again, this is why I'm not your therapist, but to me I always say that
11:01
if you're asking the questions and you're tuning into a therapist and trying to find
11:06
out answers and you're going to therapy, then I don't, I would guess that it's most
11:11
likely not a personality disorder, but it's more extreme emotional immaturity.
11:15
And that's what I kind of hang my hat on, that the number of people that have
11:18
personality disorders is relatively small for how much we throw it around.
11:22
I mean, we go back to, oh, everybody's ex was narcissistic,
11:25
or everybody's ex-girlfriend was borderline, or that sort of thing.
11:28
Yeah.
11:29
And that one's an easy one just to throw that diagnosis.
11:31
And what's even worse about that is if somebody in the relationship says,
11:33
Hey, I think you have borderline personality disorder, number one, the
11:37
answers are gonna show immaturity.
11:39
No, I don't.
11:39
You do.
11:40
Or, you know, that kind of thing.
11:41
Yeah.
11:41
But then it's unfair because now that person's like, oh my
11:44
gosh, do I have borderline Now I gotta go figure out, do I?
11:46
I'm gonna go see a therapist and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, read books about it.
11:49
So if you're the person that took that advice or took that suggestion or that
11:53
criticism and now you're trying to figure it out, I would guess it's more
11:56
along the lines of you're probably more on the emotional immature category
12:00
and not a personality disorder.
12:01
So there's
12:03
lots of hope.
12:03
I think there's a lot of hope.
12:03
'cause there's lots of
12:04
things to be done.
12:05
Yeah.
12:05
and there's two thoughts on this.
12:07
I'd love to, for you to jump in at any point.
12:09
So in one, yeah.
12:10
You're going down you're getting treatment for DBT and you're taking medication.
12:14
And if you feel like you are starting to change and the other person is
12:18
saying, yeah, I don't know still that, that might be an answer, right?
12:22
There is, that is can that person just easily dismiss you with a
12:26
Yeah, I think you're still the same.
12:28
Mm-hmm.
12:28
, learn about differentiation, where that is.
12:30
Ultimately, you are the one who knows you best.
12:34
And I would love to, I'd love to help get my clients this place
12:37
where they have this 90% solid, maybe 10% flexible sense of self.
12:40
So if you know who you are and you're, and you know that the way you're thinking
12:43
and feeling is actually it's okay, but that other person has a problem with it,
12:48
maybe that's the additional work to bring to your therapist of saying it really is
12:52
saying, am I, I was gonna say, am I crazy?
12:55
That's a loaded word, but.
12:57
This is what's showing up in my relationship and you know, is the other
13:00
person actually being pretty reactionary?
13:01
Are they being pretty emotionally immature?
13:03
Are they engaging in all or nothing?
13:05
Black or white thinking?
13:06
I don't know, are they, I dunno,
13:08
either.
13:09
Well, yeah.
13:10
Yeah.
13:10
Okay.
13:10
Other questions?
13:11
Or do they give us more?
13:12
This one?
13:12
No, but this one, this one's interesting.
13:14
If you are always treating people, how do you turn it off when meeting new people?
13:18
Oh, you don't, you don't,
13:20
you're just diagnosing people other in your head.
13:22
Yeah, totally.
13:23
I, I, I think about this all the time.
13:24
And I talk to other people that have in their professions the easiest one
13:28
to go to is for some reason I end up working with a fair amount of dentists.
13:31
And I say, are you always looking at people's teeth?
13:33
They're saying, yeah, of course I am.
13:35
I don't think it's a bad thing though.
13:37
'cause the turning it off makes to me it's this assumption that it's just,
13:41
there's so much to carry with me.
13:43
Mm-hmm.
13:43
But I love what I do.
13:45
So I am trying to or read people constantly.
13:48
Like right now, is Mackey so bored?
13:51
I'm kidding.
13:51
Excuse me.
13:53
But no, it's a great question though.
13:54
But I don't, I don't turn it off, but , I don't think that it has
13:57
me then judging people and they're saying, you know, I had a rough day.
14:00
And I'm like, tell me about your mom.
14:01
Yeah,
14:01
it's not like that, but it's like your brain is still.
14:03
Sure.
14:04
Running.
14:04
Yeah.
14:05
Which, which, and I wanna answer all the questions today, but I just did a
14:09
podcast that I've been working on for so long and it's about , what emotional
14:13
immaturity looks like in adults.
14:15
Mm-hmm.
14:15
And and I'll tell you, maybe we'll just throw one on here a little bit
14:18
too, let me go to one of my favorites and it's magical thinking and my whole.
14:22
Hypothesis here is, well, and I got this from this therapist named Terry Real.
14:27
That's pretty amazing.
14:27
People should go look up Terry.
14:29
But it's the things that were adaptive or they helped us and our
14:32
childhood become maladaptive and they no longer help us as an adult.
14:36
So here's the coolest one, magical thinking.
14:39
Did you did we talk about, we talked a little bit about this, right?
14:41
We, yeah.
14:42
, we have a little grandson in the house, not we.
14:44
It's your.
14:45
He's
14:46
my nephew.
14:46
Nephew,
14:47
my grandson.
14:48
'cause you're my daughter.
14:49
I'm your dad.
14:49
Yeah.
14:50
And we had Easter and he had this big old egg and so he put it in front of his face.
14:54
And so what is he thinking?
14:55
Right then?
14:56
Everything's gone.
14:57
He,
14:57
he disappeared like it was, 'cause then when he, he alone, he's,
15:00
and then when he takes the egg away, we're all like, oh my gosh.
15:02
There you are.
15:03
So that's healthy, magical thinking.
15:05
It's age appropriate, or when you were a kid, did you think that if you left
15:09
your stuffed animals not like in a good position or something, they'd be sad?
15:14
Or did you have any of those kind of thoughts?
15:16
I wasn't listening.
15:17
Okay.
15:18
One more time.
15:19
Okay.
15:19
Did, did you, so when you were a kid, did you think if you left the room and
15:22
you're stuffed, the animals weren't in a nice position on the bed or something,
15:26
they might be sad or they might Oh
15:27
yeah.
15:28
Be okay?
15:29
Do you still.
15:30
No.
15:31
Okay.
15:32
I'm, I'm just checking
15:32
25. I mean, so that's like, but no, definitely that.
15:34
Yeah.
15:35
Yeah.
15:35
So that's magical thinking.
15:36
And so then what does it look like as an adult it's where adults with
15:40
the, with magical thinking, just assume partners should just know what
15:43
they want without communicating it.
15:45
So that's one.
15:46
Well, you should know.
15:47
Everybody knows, right?
15:47
That, that's magical if you think about that.
15:50
Because
15:50
how on earth should that person know?
15:52
How would they
15:52
possibly know?
15:52
Think of how many things go through your brain every second of every day.
15:54
Yeah.
15:55
Yeah.
15:55
There's no way.
15:57
No, and then the next part of magical thinking is, or if I
16:00
ignore it, it will go away.
16:02
And on this podcast episode I talked about how much I don't like opening my mail.
16:06
I'm a 55-year-old professional human being.
16:08
Yeah.
16:08
You don't
16:08
have a problem with that?
16:09
, because if I don't open it, then nothing bad will ever happen.
16:12
Yeah.
16:13
That's magical thinking.
16:14
It's emotional immaturity.
16:15
Yeah.
16:15
Is what I'm saying.
16:16
And that's, I kind of do that and mom gets on me for it.
16:18
Does she?
16:18
At night, when I have things in the morning that I don't wanna do, I stay up
16:22
late so that I don't have to go to sleep.
16:24
Because then if I go to sleep it goes, I used to do this in high
16:26
school all the time, and mom would be like, the day's gonna come anyways.
16:29
You might as well go to sleep
16:30
I'd be like, but if I go to sleep right now, it'll be like that.
16:33
Or I can stay awake and then it feels longer.
16:35
Okay.
16:35
That is this magical thinking.
16:36
Yeah.
16:36
Or the other one is people that don't look at their bank account.
16:38
'cause then they just think, then that means there's no problems.
16:40
Oh.
16:41
Again, maybe, maybe similar, maybe currently going through it.
16:43
And the last thing I'll say, and then I wanna jump back to
16:45
questions, is on this note, Kelly's
16:46
here.
16:47
Oh, hey, Kelly.
16:48
All right, Kelly.
16:48
I would say, where have you been?
16:49
We, we, where we been?
16:51
. But this magical thinking stuff is wild we go back to when you were a little kid.
16:53
If I close my eyes, you can't see me.
16:55
But then you mature out of it.
16:57
Hopefully.
16:58
But this is 'cause we're supposed to outgrow this magical thinking because
17:00
we're supposed to develop this cause and effect relationship with life.
17:04
So the cause and effect.
17:05
So I have had to pay more late car registration fees in my life.
17:10
'cause I'll get the thing from the DMV and I know it's in there, but if I just
17:13
put it over here, then I don't even know.
17:17
That's what's silly about magical.
17:19
Or even then it's the, another version of magical thinking is, if I
17:21
don't write it down, I'll remember.
17:23
Oh.
17:24
. I do that
17:25
Cause and effect, that has not worked so far or at all.
17:29
That's never worked.
17:30
No.
17:30
For the whole time you've been alive, , but it still seems like the window.
17:33
Yeah.
17:33
, I just think that's interesting and that ties back to when we were
17:36
talking about things like people that wanna know if they're borderline
17:38
or somebody narcissist and I , I.
17:40
I think we're all emotionally immature.
17:41
, when you find out , what emotional immaturity looks like, it's mind blowing
17:44
because then you , can't unsee it.
17:46
Even if somebody just says, well, I probably don't even want to try to talk
17:49
to them because I'm sure it's not gonna go well, then I'm doing magical thinking.
17:52
'cause I'm saying, okay, if I don't talk about it it'll be okay.
17:56
Or I've already said, and it's not gonna go well, black or white, all or nothing.
18:01
And magical thinking.
18:02
Now you throw one more in there that I've been really fixated on.
18:05
It's emotional reasoning.
18:06
So kids believe if I feel it, then it must be true.
18:10
So if I if I feel like you are mad at me, then you are mad at me.
18:13
And that's where a kid will say, stop yelling at me.
18:15
Because they think you are yelling at them because they think like
18:18
they've done something wrong.
18:19
And at some point the parents like, Hey bud, I'm not, and
18:22
they're like, geez, stop yelling.
18:23
And then I've,
18:24
we have had that interaction when I was little all the time.
18:26
Well, all
18:26
I know when you were little.
18:27
Yeah.
18:28
Hey kidding.
18:29
about like Hundred percent where I'd
18:30
be like, because you felt bad, I'd freak out
18:32
and be like, you're yelling
18:33
at me.
18:34
And it's like, you're not even talking any different.
18:36
But to me, I'm like, stop yelling.
18:37
And what's crazy is that talk about emotional maturity then at
18:39
some point then, if you don't.
18:42
Get it.
18:43
Then most parents inevitably say, finally they're like, I'll show
18:47
you what is yelling, and then they, I've never yelled at they why?
18:50
I know.
18:50
Wow.
18:50
That's very kind.
18:51
Um, you
18:51
really haven't,
18:52
but I've never heard you . , okay, I said one more, but one more, one more, and
18:54
then I hope there's some questions there.
18:56
Poor emotional boundaries because kids merge their identity with their caregiver.
18:59
, we get our sense of self from external validation and then eventually in
19:03
adults, it means that you start taking responsibility for other people's
19:06
emotions or feelings, and you make other people responsible for yours.
19:10
So then if I say things like, , if you wouldn't have said that, then I
19:13
wouldn't have had to react this way.
19:14
I just made that person responsible for my emotions.
19:17
Or the other one is, , and this one I think is interesting.
19:20
This is one of those you can't unsee.
19:22
Where if I said, well, man, Mac, . I almost didn't ask
19:24
you to come on here tonight.
19:25
'cause I didn't want you to think you had to and I didn't
19:27
want you to feel obligated.
19:28
And I was worried that you might think
19:30
You didn't even give me the chance.
19:31
Exactly.
19:32
Exactly.
19:33
To be like, I'm actually fine.
19:34
Yeah.
19:34
'cause I'm actually managing your emotions.
19:37
In that scenario, my emotions
19:38
were just fine.
19:39
And then
19:39
yeah.
19:39
And you said, yeah, I'd like to do it.
19:40
I'm like, are you sure?
19:41
And then at some point it's look old man.
19:43
I said I'm sure.
19:44
Look old man.
19:45
Okay.
19:45
Alright.
19:45
Okay.
19:46
We have to speed, run some things.
19:47
Okay, good.
19:47
When you weren't bringing 'em up, I was thinking, oh, what if nobody's doing?
19:51
No.
19:51
Okay.
19:51
Um, okay.
19:51
Going off of the one about you, how do you turn it off when meeting new people?
19:56
Oh yeah.
19:57
How does that affect your relationships?
19:59
Ooh.
20:01
I always thought it was super cool.
20:02
Yeah.
20:03
Anyway, you're breaking up.
20:04
I think No, I'll still, I stand by.
20:06
I think you balance it better than you maybe give yourself credit for.
20:09
Okay.
20:10
At least you portray it that way.
20:11
Yeah.
20:11
Where it doesn't feel like you are Mr. Therapist guy all the time.
20:15
All the time.
20:16
, and you have a good balance of, okay, I can step in and say these
20:19
things and like bring in these tools.
20:20
Yeah.
20:21
But you also have at least as my dad, like there were plenty of
20:24
times where you were just my dad.
20:25
. You know?
20:25
Yeah.
20:26
And that's, that could be hard.
20:27
And I think that that's a good way to say, and the reason I made the face was
20:31
I would say, okay, let's let's get your mom in here and ask her how it's been.
20:34
Because I think one of the, oh wow, okay.
20:37
I'm having a nice moment right now.
20:38
When I said, oh, yeah, I don't turn it off.
20:40
And it's no problem.
20:41
But then when somebody just wants to feel heard or understood, let's
20:43
say like a, a spouse and then.
20:46
And I talk all day about, Hey, don't try to fix your partner's problems.
20:49
Like just hear 'em.
20:50
But then there is that part of me that's okay, I will, but I
20:53
actually think I can help as well.
20:55
So it's like I still think you're not turning it off, but you're able to like,
20:58
hopefully
20:59
put it to the side for a second.
21:01
Yeah.
21:01
And be, you know,
21:02
you know what's funny though?
21:03
And I wonder if you, I say, would you have the courage to be this vulnerable and say,
21:08
yeah, you do this a lot again, old man.
21:10
But when you guys are telling stories or talking about certain people or
21:14
friends, it is interesting 'cause I want to interject constantly.
21:18
Oh, that's, yeah.
21:19
That's immaturity or that's when seen, you
21:21
don't do that.
21:22
Oh, I think I, okay.
21:23
Oh,
21:23
I don't, I think I do.
21:24
Okay.
21:25
A, not in a way that feels, I guess then that you're just like,
21:27
yeah, because I think that's my own way of wanting diagnosis, everything, ever.
21:30
And I think it's my own way of maybe a little bit of wanting validation,
21:33
but also I did 10 years in a. And a job I didn't really care about.
21:38
Yeah.
21:38
And I like this one so much that there's a part of me that just thinks,
21:41
okay, I do see that pattern in a relationship and I do want to say it.
21:45
Great question.
21:46
. How do you stop overthinking?
21:48
I, I thought I'd have a funny joke that would come out right now.
21:51
Okay.
21:51
Take this one out.
21:52
You know this one polar bear, right?
21:53
Yeah.
21:53
I'm not very good
21:54
at this one.
21:55
You've been working on it?
21:56
I've been working on it.
21:57
I think just.
21:58
You have to wrap your head around the fact that, that sounds harsh, but that
22:03
overthinking does not solve the problem.
22:05
. And it's like your brain is, I feel like it's, you have to practice it.
22:08
Yeah.
22:08
A lot like, a lot like years and years and years.
22:10
Like I'm talking, I've been practicing since I was what, 15 now at this point?
22:14
Yeah.
22:14
10 years.
22:15
Still not have it figured out.
22:16
What's the person's name?
22:17
I wanna look directly in the camera and be very powerful.
22:18
Esperanza
22:20
Esperanza.
22:21
That is a very good question , here's where I think some of the origin of this
22:24
is, , let's look at anxiety for example.
22:26
Anxiety initially was a very good thing for our ancestors because they were
22:32
worried about saber tooth tigers or turn in a corner and somebody robbing them.
22:37
And so you start to anticipate or overthink a lot of different things
22:41
and it's a survival mechanism.
22:42
But the problem is now we overthink so many things that are not gonna happen.
22:48
We're worried about just if, again, if somebody thinks something about me or if
22:52
somebody took something a certain way or what if, even if I like my job now, but
22:55
what if , what if people stop coming?
22:57
Or what if I get banned for something?
23:00
Or what if and what if?
23:01
And if we just think about those things all the time, then it will cause
23:03
us to then think about more things.
23:05
Well then, should I be doing this?
23:06
Or maybe I shouldn't say this, or, you know what I should do, I should probably
23:09
start looking at something else as well.
23:10
Or there.
23:11
So when you start thinking and thinking and then it moves into overthinking,
23:14
it'll ramp up your anxiety even more.
23:16
So what Mackey's talking about is so good.
23:18
You said the white polar bear thing.
23:20
What?
23:20
What was that?
23:21
You said you thought I was gonna say the white polar bear example.
23:24
You say this thing where you go, okay, don't think about a purple polar bear
23:29
wearing a tutu standing on a skateboard.
23:31
What color was the tutu?
23:33
I had a pink.
23:34
I kinda had it pink too.
23:35
Yeah.
23:35
So Mikey's and
23:37
I guarantee everybody just thought of that.
23:38
Yeah.
23:39
And if they didn't, they're super immature.
23:40
I didn't Yeah,
23:41
nice try.
23:42
So you can't not think about things.
23:44
So even your question where you're saying, how do I stop overthinking
23:47
your brain right there is saying, well, I will keep overthinking.
23:51
You have to change your relationship with your thoughts, which means I
23:54
am noticing that I am thinking, and I even think if you're calling it
23:58
overthinking, it's probably gonna cause a little bit of a bump of anxiety.
24:01
Because, oh my gosh, I'm doing that thing again.
24:03
I'm overthinking.
24:04
Okay.
24:04
Don't think about it.
24:05
It's like,
24:05
but you're just, the thoughts are gonna come and go.
24:06
It's just, yeah, part of having a brain.
24:09
It is and changing the relationship with your thought.
24:11
And then know that none of your thoughts that you're having are crazy
24:15
or wild, or they shouldn't be there because you're thinking that the
24:18
way you're thinking because you are.
24:20
And you're thinking the thoughts because you're the only version of you that's
24:24
ever been on Earth and you've had all of your experiences, , there's so many
24:28
variables that go into everything.
24:30
Mm-hmm.
24:30
Like we say, we go to a movie and I'm thinking about a million different things
24:33
about me or my experiences that then I see and I think I like this, or I don't
24:37
like this, or this reminds me of this and 'cause I get really scared easily.
24:41
So even at that movie Sinners that we were talking about.
24:43
There was still that part of me that I do not like to be scared.
24:46
Mm-hmm.
24:47
So in those moments, I wasn't even paying as much attention because I'm
24:50
thinking, okay, is it gonna be now or is the director gonna do the thing
24:53
where, when you least expect it?
24:55
Or is it when you most expect or when you, so I'm always thinking
24:57
of, I didn't feel any of that.
24:58
Didn't, so it's like
24:59
that.
24:59
Yeah.
25:00
Oh, so it's all, it's sort different.
25:01
Yeah.
25:01
It's crazy.
25:01
Let me give you a very short homework assignment, Esperanza.
25:05
And that is.
25:06
, the best tool you can start to use is is mindfulness meditation.
25:10
, here's the biggest key.
25:11
It's not about trying to stop your thoughts.
25:12
And I think that's the number one r Wrong answer.
25:15
I'm trying to not be so dramatic.
25:16
But that's the misconception about mindfulness is that people will
25:19
say, well, I can't stop my thoughts.
25:20
They
25:20
to clear your head.
25:21
Yeah.
25:21
That is not what you do.
25:22
Mm-hmm.
25:22
Not at all.
25:23
Yeah.
25:23
What do you do?
25:24
Well, there's a. I remember in the Headspace app.
25:27
Yeah, which is the mindfulness app.
25:29
There's little like videos and one of the videos they show you is to take
25:33
thinking like this and view it like every thought is a cloud in the sky.
25:37
Yeah.
25:37
And you're just laying on your back and you're looking up at the sky
25:40
and the clouds are just going by slowly, but they're not like nothing's
25:44
getting bigger or smaller or heavier.
25:45
It's like they're just going by and you can look at it and you
25:49
can watch it go by and you can even, and nothing has to change.
25:51
Nothing has to.
25:52
Cause you to spiral or go crazy.
25:53
It's just like a, hey, look at that.
25:55
There it goes.
25:57
And what's good about that example is I like that one as well because, and
26:00
you might even notice that some of the clouds are getting a little bit darker
26:03
and that might cause you to notice that you are feeling a little bit more
26:06
worried about is there gonna be rain?
26:08
But then you come back to noticing the shape of the cloud or the size of the
26:11
cloud or the darkness of the cloud.
26:12
And all of a sudden I am noticing.
26:14
That I'm feeling rain and then at some point, and
26:16
the cloud's still moving though.
26:17
Exactly.
26:17
And then it's still like,
26:18
yeah, it
26:19
doesn't have to take over.
26:20
Yeah.
26:20
And so I was gonna, that's a great example.
26:22
There's another one called Leafs on a stream.
26:24
And you can do this for 30 seconds.
26:26
You can do it for a minute, you can try to get it up to five minutes.
26:28
And all you have to do is just sit back and just notice thoughts.
26:32
And you might be thinking even this sounds ridiculous, and take, this sounds
26:36
ridiculous, and just put that on a leaf and watch it go down the stream.
26:39
And then all of a sudden you'll think this is really silly.
26:41
And then you think, put that one on a leaf and watch it go down the stream.
26:45
And you are practicing just it is a thought.
26:48
You're noticing that thought and and if you can even do it better,
26:51
but now I'm gonna get thinking about the Disney movie, Pocahontas.
26:54
Then you can even watch as it goes around the river bend.
26:57
Oh boy.
26:57
I know.
26:57
Can you start singing for
26:58
I I am in my head.
26:59
And don't tell me not to 'cause I'll do it even more.
27:02
Okay.
27:02
So you so moral of the story.
27:06
You what a what an adorable concept to try to stop overthinking.
27:10
But I can notice that I'm thinking and then I can now learn to change
27:14
my relationship with my thoughts.
27:16
Okay.
27:16
What do you got?
27:17
Somebody called me.
27:18
Maggie.
27:19
Maggie?
27:19
Yeah.
27:20
Do you like that?
27:20
No.
27:21
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
27:22
Do you, do you remember a walking dad where Maggie was she, is she still around?
27:26
On the Walking Dead.
27:27
As far as I know, I never finished it, but yeah.
27:29
Okay.
27:30
Whatever season I'm in, she's still there.
27:32
Okay.
27:32
How can you be completely honest in a relationship?
27:34
Ooh.
27:36
Oh, okay.
27:37
Side
27:37
note, someone said, now I know what my girlfriend feels like
27:39
when I talk about psychology.
27:41
Bless her soul.
27:43
Okay.
27:44
Meaning that it's awesome, right?
27:46
She's so lucky.
27:47
It's so fun.
27:47
Yeah.
27:48
Okay.
27:49
Okay.
27:49
Completely honest in a relationship though,
27:51
right outta the gate.
27:52
I wanna know.
27:53
We have a psychological philosophical discussion on should
27:57
one be a hundred percent honest,
28:00
should one be a hundred percent honest.
28:02
Is that the goal?
28:03
I would say, yeah.
28:04
Okay.
28:05
Is that not right?
28:06
Well,
28:06
th this is like I said, in terms terms of what, well, that's the big question.
28:09
, kinda goes back to if every single thought that goes through my head, then I think
28:12
that I need to share with somebody.
28:13
Oh
28:13
no, I don't think like that.
28:14
Yeah.
28:15
Yeah.
28:15
But I think don't.
28:17
Sit there and blatantly lie about things.
28:19
Yeah.
28:19
I, you know, yeah.
28:19
I think that's be open.
28:20
But no, I don't think you have to go, I don't think you have to
28:21
write down every thought you have in a day and be like, here you go.
28:24
Well, because I've had people that have done that and they
28:25
said, look, I'm just being honest.
28:27
This is what I'm thinking.
28:27
Again, it
28:28
goes to the thoughts come and go, and it doesn't mean there's truth
28:30
behind them and it doesn't mean, yeah.
28:31
Well, and that
28:31
one also, well, and here's one too where, let's say that somebody's
28:34
just thinking about something.
28:35
Here's one that I had recently in a session where a person came to me and
28:38
they said, man, I've been thinking about, the, my partner's sibling.
28:44
In a certain way.
28:46
And then they said, I guess I should let my partner know that your thoughts,
28:51
well, part of me goes, maybe don't, but then part of me goes, yeah,
28:54
tell 'em so they can get rid of you.
28:56
Okay, but what Okay does that
28:57
feels scary.
28:58
Well,
28:58
and that's what's interesting and that's why so, so now I don't know.
29:00
Because if that person, if it's just a thought and now they
29:03
feel guilty about their thought,
29:04
oh well, yeah.
29:05
Okay.
29:05
So it's so complicated.
29:06
It is because it's just a thought that was a second and it passes
29:09
through and it's like almo like.
29:10
Now.
29:11
Now if they start thinking, man, I shouldn't be thinking that,
29:13
but there's the truth I guess, is the, is the
29:14
well.
29:14
And that's where I think and then I go back to that where it gets complicated.
29:16
Can you go talk to a therapist about it or maybe even a friend about it?
29:20
Because here's where it gets a little bit fascinating, is
29:23
then if it is just a thought.
29:24
And now let's go back to that one earlier where I'm trying to stop
29:27
thinking that, and now that means I'm even thinking it more and now
29:30
it's starting to cause me anxiety.
29:32
And now if I want to now share that with my partner, is that just a way for me to
29:36
alleviate my anxiety or my discomfort?
29:39
And even goes back to this thing we were talking about earlier
29:41
with emotional immaturity.
29:42
Did I just say, Hey, I don't like the way I feel, so I need
29:45
you to manage my O emotions.
29:48
Mm-hmm.
29:48
I need you to tell me that it's okay that I'm thinking this versus I need to
29:51
know it's okay that I'm thinking this.
29:53
'cause that doesn't mean that I'm gonna do anything about it.
29:56
Hmm.
29:57
Your thoughts.
29:59
See, it's fascinating though, right?
30:01
It's fascinating, but then it's fun.
30:02
Then like my emotional immaturity is coming in.
30:05
'cause then I'm like.
30:06
If my boyfriend was thinking certain things, I'd be like,
30:08
you have to tell me that.
30:09
Okay.
30:09
You know?
30:10
Yeah.
30:10
But not really's not fair because are thoughts,
30:12
are your thoughts always just No.
30:14
Okay.
30:14
That's, that's, I love this question,
30:16
so that's why it's that's why I just said my, it's my emotional maturity where I'm
30:19
like, you have to tell me everything.
30:20
It's like, no, but I'm not going to
30:22
because my mine's different.
30:23
Right.
30:24
It's different
30:24
for me, but you need to let me know.
30:25
So it's like
30:25
that's not, no, that's not how it works.
30:27
This is where the beginning of this Interesting.
30:28
I know, and I've thought before about, okay and I'm not some math
30:32
guy or anything, but earlier I talked about helping a client have a 90%
30:35
solid, 10% flexible sense of self.
30:37
Meaning that what if when people are saying, I think you, you know what you
30:40
need to do, or you need to change this.
30:42
If 90% of me is saying, well, I'm actually good.
30:45
But I'm leaving 10% open because I wanna be the best me.
30:48
Yeah, I'll take, I'll, I wanna hear what you have to say.
30:49
Be a little bit open.
30:50
Yeah.
30:50
Yeah.
30:50
'cause oh, you, I hadn't thought about that.
30:52
In this scenario, I've often thought, alright, what would it be?
30:55
95% open and honest, 90% open and honest.
30:58
10% is a me thing.
31:00
And, but I do, and this is where I go back to what I love about my job is it
31:04
is nice when somebody does say, okay, I just wanna unload some thoughts.
31:09
Because sometimes they mean things and other times they are just thoughts.
31:12
Yeah.
31:13
Yeah.
31:13
So great question.
31:14
That was fun.
31:15
Tricky.
31:15
Yep.
31:16
Tips on how to handle the father-in-law that wants to be
31:18
called a grandpa, but he doesn't make a lot of effort to be a grandpa.
31:21
Oh, that's such a good question too.
31:23
Because my initial thought there is, and I love the way you phrased the question,
31:28
because that person, , first of all, do they even know how to be a good grandpa?
31:32
Do they not know what they don't know?
31:34
And so your expectation of them as a grandpa is.
31:37
I'm not saying it's too high, but are we on different pages here or is that
31:41
guy subconsciously or consciously aware that he's not being a very good grandpa?
31:45
But as long as you tell him that he is, then he's like, okay, cool.
31:47
I don't have to do anything else.
31:50
So it's like, yeah.
31:50
Is he, does he think he's doing a good job or does he know?
31:52
Yeah.
31:53
And this gets into, maybe this is a theme of tonight is this a little bit
31:56
of that emotional immaturity, which I'm saying we're all emotionally
31:59
immature If anybody's just joining.
32:01
But if there's a way that I think he should be, but I haven't
32:04
communicated to that, that would fall back into that magical thinking.
32:08
Mm-hmm.
32:08
Because he wouldn't know.
32:09
So it's like, has there been a conversation?
32:11
Yeah.
32:12
'cause if you're saying, Hey I really think it would be good if you
32:14
spent more time with your grandson.
32:17
And he's like, oh totally.
32:18
Well, I'm just so busy, or this or that, or whatever.
32:20
But then when you put him on the phone or hey, make sure you tell him that
32:23
your grandpa loves you, . Mm-hmm.
32:25
Then I could see where that would be frustrating.
32:26
So have you communicated what your, expectations are the right
32:30
word, but maybe of what you would like his role as a grandpa to be.
32:35
Yeah, that would be the question.
32:36
Yeah.
32:36
I'm not saying that like you're doing it wrong.
32:37
That's the starting.
32:37
No, but it's like that would be the starting point.
32:39
Yeah.
32:40
But then if those conversations have already been had,
32:43
there you go.
32:44
And he's still not showing up the way that he has, I think then you're
32:50
allowed to have your boundaries.
32:51
Mm-hmm.
32:52
And whatever that means for like you and your kids.
32:54
Yeah.
32:55
And I think that there's, I know not everyone feels that way, but
32:58
just because somebody is family and related to you does not mean that you.
33:03
Owe them anything really?
33:04
. Like, just because they're, I know people feel very differently about
33:06
that, but just because somebody is blood related to you, it doesn't
33:11
mean that you just have to like.
33:13
Roll over and do whatever, you know?
33:14
Yeah.
33:14
I'm with you there.
33:15
And we are blood related.
33:16
We are,
33:17
but if you are kind like you're, you too.
33:20
Okay.
33:21
But if, yeah, if you have to, if you feel like you're compromising your values or
33:24
your own sense of self or like that's
33:26
not
33:26
Yeah.
33:26
Just then that's not
33:27
respect from their side and there's so many other things to that.
33:30
Yeah.
33:31
So it's like it, yeah.
33:32
So I think complicated question depends on, but a good one.
33:35
The things, but.
33:37
So you have to give them a chance to Yeah.
33:39
Because if you're secretly resenting them because they're not doing
33:41
the things that you think they should do, goes back to that.
33:44
That's little magical thinking.
33:45
Isn't that wild?
33:47
. Yeah.
33:48
Okay.
33:48
But and if there's follow up questions too that feel free to Yeah.
33:51
Yeah.
33:51
'cause I, I can circle back to this.
33:52
I could love this one.
33:54
Okay.
33:54
Um,
33:54
difference of bipolar and just anger issues.
33:57
That is a great question.
33:59
'cause there, if we look at the diagnostic criteria of bipolar, let's
34:01
just look at a DX of bipolar disorder.
34:04
Okay.
34:05
Bipolar disorder.
34:06
Okay.
34:06
Diagnosed based on the presence of specific mood episodes including
34:09
mania, hypomania, or depression.
34:11
And then the absence of other potential causes.
34:14
And I think there's the key because if I am going through this depressive
34:18
episode or this manic episode, but there really aren't necessarily
34:21
these mitigating circumstances or triggers or that sort of thing, I.
34:24
Then I think we would be looking more at a bipolar diagnosis.
34:28
But if somebody is angry, one of the first things I wanna do is say, okay,
34:32
let's take a look at why you're angry.
34:34
But if it is just like anger issues, there typically is a trigger.
34:37
Yeah.
34:37
Is that what you're saying?
34:37
Yeah.
34:38
Yeah.
34:38
And what's fascinating now we get into that whole world of
34:40
primary and secondary emotions.
34:41
, let's say that I'm not happy with where I am in life.
34:44
And then I continue to have these anger outbursts, then is
34:49
it really a secondary emotion?
34:50
The primary emotion I'm feeling is embarrassment or, I'm frustrated
34:55
with myself, so now I'm lashing out with anger because if I can lash out
34:59
with anger and get you to go, geez, or whatever, then now we can make it
35:03
about our relationship and not about where I, how I feel or what I'm doing.
35:08
So that's one where then I think that you can look at the, if there's
35:11
a secondary emotion, then is it more about anger's actually there
35:14
to tell me something about myself.
35:16
It's just hard to really.
35:18
Understand that.
35:19
Yeah.
35:19
If you're that kind of anger anger is a primary emotion is a fascinating one.
35:23
That's usually more around it.
35:24
Like I, I can't think of a better phrase than just injustice.
35:27
So if somebody is treating you wrong, then you're gonna get,
35:31
you're gonna have an anger response.
35:32
And that is, thank you body for looking out for me.
35:36
But most likely when you were a kid, when you got angry, somebody's telling you.
35:40
Hey, calm down bud.
35:41
Or it's not a big deal.
35:42
Or don't worry about it, or just get over it.
35:44
So it goes back to have we been taught that our emotions are wrong to begin with?
35:48
So then I don't, I feel bad if I'm getting angry, so then it comes out in other ways.
35:53
That's what I would look at more.
35:54
But true bipolar is, you got these three, four day long manic episodes
35:59
where people, I've had, I had a guy buy a house down in Southern
36:03
California one time on a business trip.
36:05
'cause he just.
36:06
Stop by a neighborhood that he thought was pretty cool, a manic episode.
36:10
Then a few days later realizes, oh, that's a non-refundable deposit.
36:14
His wife is not very happy.
36:16
Yeah, that'll do it.
36:17
That'll do it.
36:18
. Okay.
36:18
. So it's a Venn diagram type of thing, but they do, they are very like, I
36:22
think that, yeah, but I would look at the, what's the trigger for the anger?
36:25
. . Have you ever felt days of mania, everything's great and you can fly
36:30
and solve all the world's problems?
36:32
I know, I can't
36:32
say that I have
36:33
me neither.
36:33
I, I do like this.
36:34
I like saying that you can't really, not that you can't help somebody
36:38
where with something that you haven't experienced or you can't lead someone
36:40
where you haven't been before.
36:42
But I do often say with something like bipolar, then I can help
36:45
with the diagnostic criteria.
36:46
We can go over examples but that's one that I haven't experienced.
36:49
So it is, it can be a little difficult to help.
36:51
Yeah.
36:51
Yeah.
36:51
Yeah.
36:52
I've been angry though.
36:54
Same.
36:54
Yeah.
36:55
I think this was back with when we were talking about
36:59
being honest in a relationship.
37:00
Mm-hmm.
37:00
And someone said, and being rudely honest is not nice or direct is not nice.
37:04
Yeah.
37:04
So again, it's like,
37:05
. Because that's where somebody hides behind.
37:06
He still
37:06
being honest.
37:06
But there are ways to be.
37:08
Yeah.
37:08
Kind.
37:09
Yeah.
37:09
'cause if somebody says, well, I don't like this thing.
37:11
Look, I'm just being honest.
37:12
I think, oh no, you're being a jerk and you're just like basically
37:15
diffusing your, an anger or frustration and then trying to justify it and
37:18
make it
37:18
. And saying, look, I'm telling you, I'm just being real.
37:20
Yeah.
37:21
And
37:21
sounds it's like that.
37:21
Yeah.
37:22
What's wild about that though?
37:23
Layer
37:23
to it.
37:23
Well,
37:23
I think you and I have talked about this before where, or if somebody says that
37:26
and if you just say, oh, okay, thank you.
37:28
But then they're like, well, what are you gonna say about it?
37:31
Like, nothing.
37:32
Nothing.
37:32
Thanks.
37:33
Yeah.
37:33
It is funny when you kinda show up that way.
37:35
Yeah.
37:36
Okay.
37:36
This.
37:37
This is the, from the person that said their girlfriend has to
37:40
listen and talk about psychology.
37:41
Okay.
37:41
I know I wanna hear
37:42
more about this.
37:43
No, but this one I'm curious 'cause I'm sure you know what comes first,
37:46
the thought behavior or the feeling.
37:49
Oh, so this gets into that whole like kind of behavioral therapy says,
37:52
you know, just change your thought.
37:54
It leads to a different emotion and that emotion leads to a behavior.
37:57
Again, I was a cognitive behavioral therapist for a decade.
37:59
Mm-hmm.
38:00
And then I learned acceptance and commitment therapy, which is
38:02
just, I am thinking, I am feeling.
38:06
And check that out.
38:07
There is no,
38:08
well, it's order in that sense, or, well, it gets to be the little bit
38:11
of chicken and the egg kind of thing.
38:12
Or in the world of addiction, when I work in there, we often talk about,
38:16
there's a trigger that then does bring up a thought, and then there's
38:20
typically an action that follows.
38:22
Mm-hmm.
38:22
So then you're trying to see if there, if you can address the triggers
38:25
like a trigger o often in with like addiction or turning down healthy coping
38:30
mechanisms, there's a acronym I like Halt Hungry, angry, lonely, tired.
38:34
There's one that's blast.
38:35
I like that one too, because it adds B, which is bored.
38:38
So if you are bored, and that's when you then typically turn to some unhealthy
38:41
coping mechanism then the work to do is to try to figure out the boredom.
38:45
Mm-hmm.
38:45
Um,
38:45
but if you have the feeling of boredom, then that can often lead to the thought
38:50
of, well, I could always turn to unhealthy coping mechanism and then the behavior.
38:54
But then there are also times where somebody's doing a behavior
38:57
and then that leads to the thought of, oh, this reminds me of this.
39:01
And I feel this way.
39:02
It
39:02
really is a chicken and egg thing.
39:03
Yeah.
39:04
And what I like about this is sometimes my experience as a therapist is
39:08
sometimes people do I appreciate like they want to know maybe the order, but
39:12
I would just kinda wanna understand more about why that is important.
39:16
Because if it's just like a, oh, I'm just curious.
39:18
Or if it, if it's
39:19
like a specific scenario of Yeah.
39:21
Yeah.
39:22
And that's why I default back to acceptance and commitment therapy is.
39:25
Every single moment of your life is the first time you've
39:27
ever been you in that situation.
39:29
And it is a unique combination of your nature, nurture,
39:32
birth order, DNA abandonment.
39:33
Mm-hmm.
39:33
Hopes, fears, rejections.
39:34
So then you are going to think something or feel something.
39:38
Or when you are behaving a certain way, it can, it can follow.
39:42
Okay.
39:42
Riddle nerd is huge.
39:43
Riddle nerd.
39:44
I finally looked, I looked up Real Nerd's account a little while ago.
39:46
Yeah.
39:46
And I think Riddle Nerd is a serious very smart person.
39:49
I think like smart person.
39:50
Yeah.
39:50
Yeah.
39:51
I think that, I think real nerd knows like engineer space.
39:52
Yeah.
39:53
Engineers and stuff.
39:54
So real nerd.
39:55
It's always good to see you,
39:55
but I think is said, that's how I bought a motorcycle outside of my budget.
39:58
I hated that thing.
39:59
I'm guessing that's why, too.
40:00
Oh, mania.
40:01
Yeah.
40:02
A little manic episode.
40:03
I, yeah, I can see that.
40:04
Yeah.
40:05
Mania plus money equals frustration.
40:07
Too
40:07
much credit.
40:07
Oh,
40:08
no.
40:09
Real nerd.
40:09
Thank you.
40:10
Now I got you in my mind after that, whenever I've when you're here, it's okay.
40:13
I think you're designing like spaceships and things like that.
40:16
We're just gonna leave it at that.
40:17
Okay.
40:17
Okay.
40:18
Believe that.
40:20
Okay.
40:20
This person dunno name.
40:22
Okay.
40:22
Jumped off real fast.
40:23
Did you guys answer that one about grandpa?
40:25
We did.
40:26
And basically to sum it up, we said, oh yeah,
40:28
we, we did a good one on that one.
40:29
So this will go up on YouTube at some point?
40:32
Yeah.
40:32
So you can go back and see it,
40:32
but just to kind of speed run it.
40:34
Yeah.
40:34
Yeah.
40:34
We basically just said you have to start from the part of, have you communicated.
40:41
Any of those thoughts, right?
40:42
Have you, yeah.
40:43
So we have you let the grandpa know that you're feeling that way or
40:48
that he's not showing up in the way that you want him to, because you do
40:52
have to give him the opportunity to show up and to correct those things.
40:57
But if you've already communicated those things.
41:02
And it should just be like common sense at this point of how he should show up.
41:06
And we're not
41:06
talking about the magical thinking, kind of common sense
41:08
like, well, everybody knows this.
41:09
No.
41:09
Like actually like just
41:10
be a decent human.
41:11
Yeah.
41:11
Common sense.
41:13
Then you are allowed to have any boundary that you need to have in that scenario.
41:17
And then we got into a little thing talking about how just because somebody
41:20
is related to you doesn't mean that you owe them anything or have to
41:25
compromise your values or,
41:27
. Just because they're family and you are allowed to.
41:30
Protect your values, protect your family, whatever that looks like.
41:33
. Yeah.
41:34
And was our
41:34
speed run?
41:35
It was, but please
41:36
go.
41:36
Go find this video when it goes up on YouTube in a few days.
41:39
Virtual catch YouTube channel because.
41:40
We went in depth there because I like so many things.
41:43
We talked about the magical thinking of somebody should just know, but then you
41:46
also have to give somebody a chance.
41:47
Well, okay, and we didn't talk about this, so here's what I've also noticed.
41:50
The more that I talk to people about emotional immaturity is let's just
41:54
say, and I don't know that this is what this, what you're saying,
41:56
person that asked this question, but if you are saying, well, oh, okay,
41:59
cool.
41:59
No, not yet.
42:00
Okay, I'll,
42:01
okay.
42:01
So even if it's okay, you know what, they should just know.
42:04
Well, oftentimes I, I will now even say, what would it look like?
42:07
How would you know that this person is, let's say, being a good grandpa?
42:11
And then I would say in a lot of situations where it's happened a lot
42:14
in my, I'm a couple's therapist, so when somebody says, man, I just don't
42:17
like the way that they did that, and they should know, and all those things,
42:20
then I'll say, okay, how would you feel seen or safe or heard right now?
42:24
And often the person, if they're being honest of saying.
42:27
I don't know.
42:28
I just, he should know.
42:29
And then I say, okay, now we're into the world of magical thinking.
42:32
And then that's where we need some good old vulnerability of
42:34
saying, okay, you know what?
42:35
This is what I would think that the role of a grandpa looks like.
42:38
Or This is how, I'm assuming that a husband would show up right now and
42:42
then, but then that person can't be immature and say, that's ridiculous.
42:46
Why would you think that way?
42:47
They need to go in with curiosity.
42:49
And say, okay, yeah, tell me about that.
42:51
Or help me understand or, 'cause if not, we're into this this poor
42:53
emotional boundaries or what I call it's emotional reasoning where
42:57
again, if I feel it, it must be true.
42:58
I. That's the immature version.
43:00
So with an adult, it's okay, I feel abandoned, so
43:02
therefore you're abandoning me.
43:04
So at that point, then the person is gonna, they feel bad, they feel like
43:07
something's off, but now they're saying, I don't really know even what it is, but I
43:11
need you to make me feel better about it.
43:13
So start dancing and then if you don't do it right, then they get to say,
43:16
gosh, you don't really care about me.
43:18
And internally I might even think, am I unlovable?
43:20
And the whole thing is like, or Hey, I don't even really know
43:22
what, what, how I feel right now, but let's kind talk about it.
43:25
Does that make sense?
43:26
It does.
43:26
And so it's just there are conversations that can be had there.
43:29
Yeah.
43:30
But that doesn't just justify someone not showing up the way that.
43:36
You think that they should,
43:38
you want them to for the sake of your kids
43:41
or like something like that.
43:41
I like what you said though.
43:41
The word I would, I, there it's okay to want certain things in a relationship.
43:45
Mm-hmm.
43:46
It, but you need to be able to communicate that.
43:48
Yeah.
43:48
Hey, I would love it if you spent, took our, your grandson
43:52
to breakfast every other Sunday.
43:54
Like, whatever that looks
43:54
like.
43:55
It's like you're allowed to have to communicate those things.
43:57
Yeah.
43:58
But then if you have communicated, have given the chance.
44:00
. And they continually don't show up in that sense.
44:03
. Then it's a different answer.
44:04
Yeah.
44:05
Tell me if you ever had this, what I see a lot also as a couples therapists
44:08
or maybe somebody that is saying, no, I want to, I wanna be there for you.
44:12
Just tell me whatever you need me to do, I'll do it.
44:14
And there's two things going on that are a challenge here.
44:16
Number one, is it saying, okay, I put the burden back on you.
44:19
No, you just need to tell me what I need to do.
44:21
'cause then if I do it, then I get to say, okay, check the box now.
44:25
Aren't you super happy?
44:26
Where's my trophy?
44:27
But then what I off often find is that person will say, okay it
44:31
might be like, I don't know, maybe you can mow the backyard more.
44:34
And, but they see, they literally just had to pull it outta their back pocket.
44:37
But then the person will often say things like, I don't know.
44:40
You know how my back is like, that doesn't really, but anything else
44:42
you need me to do, I'll do it.
44:44
So there's just so many layers of immaturity there.
44:47
And they said, they say they're so busy, but it feels like they're always too busy.
44:50
Oh, yeah.
44:51
And so again, that's the thing where I would argue.
44:54
They need to make the time.
44:55
. That's, they need to make the time there and that's not a
44:58
valid excuse all the time.
44:59
No, it's not.
45:00
Because I would imagine to this person that they're so busy except
45:03
for when they're not and Right.
45:04
And when they do the things that they want to do.
45:06
They're prioritizing other things.
45:08
And again, that's not how you want someone to show up.
45:10
. , this is why I love the concept around emotional maturity, because I would
45:13
imagine you've had conversations with them where they've told you something
45:15
about even, oh, and then we just laid around all day and wasn't even sure.
45:18
And then maybe later you're saying hey, why didn't you
45:21
make it to their T-ball game?
45:22
They're, oh man, I had so much going on.
45:24
Noisy.
45:25
And that's where it takes a lot of courage to say something about, Hey
45:28
so tell me more about these times where you feel like you don't have a
45:31
lot going on or, what would it need to, what would need to happen for you
45:35
to be able to go to the T-Ball game?
45:36
Or that sort of, because you almost want the guy to just
45:38
say, look, I don't like T-Ball.
45:40
Right.
45:41
You know, because it's like, you almost have to get them to that point.
45:43
I think we do too.
45:44
This is what you do if you want, but show up.
45:46
Yeah, exactly.
45:46
Like
45:46
show that you care.
45:47
Yeah.
45:47
To be fair, I did enjoy coaching Teeball.
45:50
Yeah, I didn't play
45:51
T-ball 'cause I was a girl.
45:53
Oh, you could've man.
45:54
And let me, oh no, no, don't say I don't
45:56
know that.
45:57
Thoughts on the, I don't wanna say the name.
46:00
Freudian.
46:00
Freudian.
46:01
Freudian.
46:01
Freudian.
46:02
Yeah.
46:02
Hate.
46:03
I believe it to be revisionist history.
46:05
Harmful to say.
46:06
That's an
46:07
interesting concept.
46:08
So Freudian hate, I think what they're going to is now we're throwing Freud,
46:12
Sigmund Freud, under the proverbial bus.
46:14
Oh, my guy.
46:15
Yeah, because a lot of his theories.
46:17
Maybe they don't hold up as well.
46:19
Okay.
46:19
But here was a guy that, that we didn't even talk about psychology.
46:22
Yes.
46:23
Granted, he, the joke about psycho he used the father of psychodynamic
46:26
theory, which is the, everything kind of resorts back to your parents.
46:31
Tell me about your mom, but as a practicing therapist, I went
46:35
into this whole thing saying, yeah, what does Freud know?
46:38
And then fast forward a decade, and it kinda is about your mom.
46:40
And your dad actually on this emotionally immature podcast I did,
46:44
I talked about why we typically go toward the familiar in relationships.
46:49
The Freud's version of it was, Hey, you marry your opposite, sex parent the
46:53
traits of 'em your opposite sex parent.
46:55
Repetition, compulsion, and then you are trying to heal your own wounds
46:59
with your parent, with your spouse.
47:01
So sometimes people are saying, I didn't marry my mom, and that's
47:04
kind of gross, but, so I've been calling it more of the familiar
47:07
Isn't that a thing though?
47:07
Don't people say that all the time?
47:09
Oh, that's what I'm saying guys always try to date their mom and whatever.
47:11
Yeah.
47:12
' cause they are, they're trying to work through those.
47:13
That's totally a thing.
47:14
Yeah.
47:14
So that's a Freud thing.
47:15
And then it's, I actually just had it listen to my last podcast.
47:18
I put it on the virtual couch and on waking up to narcissism
47:20
on emotional immaturity.
47:22
And I have a whole section in there of.
47:24
Of it, it is the familiar, so if you might have married somebody who you are
47:28
continually looking for their validation.
47:30
Yeah.
47:30
And it's because let's say that your mom was overwhelmed, she had a lot of
47:34
kids, or she was depressed, or your, her husband was maybe not the most present.
47:38
And so then she was going through a lot, and this is actually like the basis of
47:42
anxious attachment theory is where when you needed validation from your mom, who
47:46
was your primary caregiver, she was busy.
47:48
So she would kind of, Hey, not now, but then when she needed to feel like
47:51
a good mom, then she's saying, oh, come tell, come give your mom a hug.
47:54
So then all of a sudden you're like, okay, I guess.
47:56
So then you think to yourself, all I want is for somebody to really
47:59
pay attention to me, but you don't know what that feels like.
48:02
So then you get in relationships with people that you try to perform
48:05
to get them to pay attention because that's the familiar and so then when
48:09
you know, then all of a sudden when somebody, they turn their attention
48:11
toward you, then it's uncomfortable.
48:14
So that's like some good old Freud stuff.
48:15
So he had a lot of stuff Right.
48:17
Also had some stuff that's interesting.
48:19
But I like what they're saying.
48:19
Little revisionist history.
48:20
Something.
48:21
He was onto something.
48:21
Yeah.
48:22
Riddle Nerd said, my sister is marrying someone very similar to me.
48:25
I'm kind of weirded out by it.
48:26
Okay.
48:27
So what is, is that good or bad for Riddle Nerd?
48:30
Be flattered or offended?
48:31
Oh, that is really FI mean, what Riddle nerd, we will just call it the familiar.
48:35
Because it would be, it would be familiar if something is complete.
48:38
And this is what's fascinating.
48:39
This is why we, I say that we get into relationships and we're pretty
48:42
much codependent and meshed outta the gate is because we want the
48:46
familiar, we want it to be comfortable.
48:47
And that's why we even compromise our own sense of self and say,
48:50
no, I love this movie too.
48:51
Or I love these things too.
48:52
Even if we kind of don't.
48:54
Because we think that we need to be perfectly aligned in everything.
48:57
But then the whole thing about becoming differentiated is the
48:59
more you go through life and have experiences, you realize, oh, we're
49:02
two completely different human beings.
49:04
And now that we're having kids or we, we are having big kid jobs and we
49:07
have to deal with money and finances.
49:09
Now all the stuff that you dealt with in your growing up comes in
49:13
here and there's expectations.
49:14
Well, everybody knows this.
49:15
Or you just think that you're gonna be on the same page.
49:17
And meanwhile you start compromising who you are 'cause you think it's
49:21
just supposed to be super easy.
49:23
Is that, did you tune in?
49:24
I'm following.
49:24
I'm following,
49:25
but Riddle nerd said, well, she was very mean growing up
49:30
and he feels bad for the guy.
49:31
Oh.
49:32
And then said, thankfully she's learned to be an adult, but she definitely
49:34
wears the pants in that relationship.
49:35
Okay.
49:35
I, there we go.
49:36
So there would be the familiar right, is that she's finding someone that it,
49:40
that feels like what a relationship is.
49:43
Because if, let's say that there was somebody that then even in a
49:46
kind way stood up to her, or mm-hmm.
49:48
Or stood up for themselves, then it's gonna feel really uncomfortable
49:52
for her and that, so that would make sense where she's probably
49:55
gonna write that guy off because it's so different or uncomfortable.
50:00
And that's sometimes where our immaturity comes in a little bit,
50:02
where then we assume and this one's another, it's mind reading.
50:06
Children assume others see the world exactly as they do.
50:08
So adults with this pattern make assumptions about their partner's
50:10
intentions without checking, and then they feel, they feel hurt when
50:13
unstated expectations aren't met.
50:15
So that's where, we're assuming that everybody thinks the way we
50:18
do, and so they need to validate her for the things that she does.
50:21
And if she's, if people in the family have I wanna say enabled it, but I
50:25
worry that enable enabling sounds like such a judgmental word, but
50:30
it is, if she got away with it and.
50:32
Her home.
50:33
Yeah.
50:33
Then it works for her.
50:35
So
50:35
why would she not Yeah, continue.
50:37
Yeah.
50:37
She
50:37
doesn't know what she doesn't know.
50:39
Okay.
50:39
We're probably close to Yeah, the hour, so the puzzle piece
50:41
will come, we won't hit it.
50:42
Yeah.
50:42
We will probably disappear in a minute or two and we won't even know
50:46
it and we'll probably keep talking.
50:48
Anything less speed round, everyth, anything else there?
50:50
Back to grandpa.
50:51
How can a grandpa love his grandkids but not play with them at all?
50:55
Yeah.
50:56
I have a hard time with this one 'cause I've got a grandkid
50:59
and I do like playing with him.
51:00
Mm-hmm.
51:01
Okay.
51:01
There's a couple of things here.
51:02
You see, this is where I'm gonna over therapize this for a moment,
51:06
and this is where I do give people the benefit of the doubt.
51:08
They don't know what they don't know.
51:09
The hard part is that a grandpa is probably, by the time he's that
51:12
old, gonna have a hard time with some good old self confrontation.
51:15
So if he.
51:17
Thinks he's a good grandpa.
51:18
I would really wanna understand what his thoughts or expectations
51:21
about what a grandpa does is.
51:23
Right.
51:24
So it's like, I really think there's just,
51:25
there's something,
51:26
it sucks, but there's more communication that has to be had there because Yeah.
51:30
You can't rule out that he's, that he think he's doing well.
51:34
Yeah.
51:34
And that there's potential for him to end up being
51:36
. Good.
51:38
But you won't know until those conversations are Yeah.
51:40
But okay.
51:41
You and I were on a walk a couple days ago and we were talking about, but at
51:45
some point, is there almost like a, a limit for someone's ability to self
51:50
confront change, that sort of thing?
51:51
Yeah.
51:52
Because it would really take him to be able to be okay with the discomfort.
51:56
Right.
51:56
And he'd have to do some work.
51:57
Yeah.
51:58
And yeah,
51:59
sit with that discomfort and, yeah.
52:00
Yeah.
52:01
Because it's
52:01
really not as scary as people think for maybe a grandpa to say, oh, okay.
52:05
Yeah I don't know why I don't spend more time with.
52:07
My grandkid, but I want to be viewed as a good grandpa.
52:11
So what would I
52:11
ask him?
52:12
Oh, so what would I ask him?
52:13
That's a great question.
52:14
It really, okay.
52:15
No it's, I it still is a good question.
52:16
I realize I was doing it a little bit of the pause.
52:18
Watch it, watch the thing in right now.
52:20
I know it's but it's the, it really is, hey tell me about your grandpa.
52:23
What did you, what did your grandpa do with you?
52:26
'cause a lot of times people will get reminisce and, or they'll either say,
52:29
oh, we didn't do much of anything.
52:30
Well, then it's oh, well there's your model.
52:32
That would maybe be a good easier conversation starting point.
52:35
A good like, . . Or if their grand, if they say, my grandpa did all these
52:38
things with me, I could also see as him wanting to say, so therefore I have
52:41
to be that gram that type of grandpa.
52:44
But then I. They don't want to think that they're not doing the
52:47
things and then I call 'em Yeah.
52:48
Buts where then they can Yeah.
52:49
But well, yeah, but I'm busy.
52:51
Yeah.
52:51
But so then you could even be curious to say, Hey, what
52:53
would it, what would you need?
52:55
In order to spend more time with the kid.
52:57
Mm-hmm.
52:57
And then if it's well, I'm busy, I'm this, I'm that.
52:59
It's oh, totally, I totally hear you.
53:01
But you wanna be a good grandpa.
53:02
I would love for you to have a better relationship with their grandson.
53:05
So what would it take for you to be able to clear time or and that could be hard.
53:08
I have had a couple of people do a little bit of family therapy.
53:11
I.
53:12
Which is tricky 'cause if you said, Hey dad, or Can you come into therapy
53:16
so we can talk about something?
53:17
Yeah.
53:17
So that one might be a little bit too much.
53:19
Okay.
53:20
Advice for new therapists, best resources to assist with learning to diagnose.
53:24
Oh, I, this one's, I think about this a lot and I get this question a lot.
53:27
It, it's.
53:29
When you're a new therapist, it you currently just often feel like you
53:33
need to just know, know these things, but even diagnosis, a lot of the ways
53:37
that people show up are gonna come with getting reps in the couch, I
53:41
like to say, or reps in the chair.
53:42
Give yourself a lot of grace and you're going, it's gonna be bumpy
53:45
and if you have a, most likely, you probably have a clinical supervisor
53:48
that's there to look over your paperwork or help with the diagnosis.
53:51
And so this is where I. I wanna, I don't wanna say I wish I would've been
53:55
more vulnerable, but you don't know what you don't know, and the people
53:59
that you're working with hopefully do.
54:01
And so don't be afraid to ask them for help.
54:03
And if they say, well, you need to figure it out, or you should just know I.
54:06
I'm gonna call their emotional immaturity out on that one because you, if you
54:10
don't know, then that's what they're there for, is to help you understand more
54:14
because you can't really understand a lot of the, I know nuances of behavior
54:19
and diag and things that lead up to a diagnosis until you've seen a lot of reps.
54:22
You start to know what I use the word normal looks like, but a little bit
54:26
more of, ah, this is a pattern, . . So give yourself grace and ask for help.
54:29
And if somebody doesn't wanna help you, then they're a weenie.
54:32
Yeah.
54:32
That's a, that's a, that's a diagnosis.
54:35
Yeah.
54:36
Yeah.
54:36
Okay.
54:36
So helpful.
54:37
Thank you.
54:37
Yeah.
54:38
Should we wrap it up?
54:39
Yeah.
54:39
It's gonna end any second.
54:41
Okay.
54:41
Hey everybody.
54:42
Thank you so much.
54:43
Go watch podcast.
54:44
Wake up to Narcissism, virtual couch.
54:46
When are we gonna do another one of yours?
54:47
The mind and mirror me.
54:48
I gonna have,
54:48
it's been like a year.
54:49
It would.
54:50
And that's all we have to say do you wanna go turn it off on someone?
54:53
Yeah.
54:53
You can just sit there and stare at it.
54:54
Stare
54:55
duh, I'm frozen.
54:57
No, that's that little creepy right there.
54:59
I don't think I can pull that off.
55:00
Okay.
55:00
Bye.
55:01
Bye everybody.