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The Job: When AI Reads Your Soul · Cinema Yūgen

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G'day. That's right, it's that time again. Time for Cinema Yugen.
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Yes, hello Yugen. It's welcome back, Kent Hill, Cinema Yugen.
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If you can imagine Spike Jonze's Hermit, Sigmar Bergman's The Seventh Seal,
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or even something Philip K.
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Dick may have written interwoven into a Beckett play, then you're in the right frame of dreaming.
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To ingest and enjoy Craig Railsback's
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The Job, a parable of technology's insights into us, its users.
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This is an incredible short sci-fi short starring Le John as Todd and the unsurpassingly
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beautiful Donna Lee Hasing,
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the legend as Athena,
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the AI of the piece.
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She is magnificent majestic todd
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has problems he's got choices to
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make the ai looks right into
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his soul and challenges him at levels that he is not prepared to be challenged
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at it is a marvelous film directed by a marvelous gentleman he is my guest please
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welcome him to cinema yugen And Craig Riles back.
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G'day, Craig. Oh, great to be here. I hope the winter's a little better where
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you are. I'm in Dallas, Texas.
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It's warming up. It's going to be very tropical today. It's going to be high
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30s, I think, which translates to high 90s, I believe, in your scale.
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So it's going to be nice and hot and sweaty.
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In Freedom Units, I think that's around 95 or so, right? Okay, yeah. Yeah.
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So it's going to be warm and very humid, extraordinarily humid.
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We're getting more and more of the tropical humidity, which is, I love it. I love it.
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That's great. I don't mean that at all. It's even cold.
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Well, I left the, uh, I left the rain in LA to come to Dallas for Thanksgiving
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and it's, and the rains follow me. It's pouring down rain here too.
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We've had a week of rain in LA and now it's got rain in Dallas.
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So it's been a kind of a grim, grim week for me.
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I'm sorry to hear it. But yeah, so let's talk about all things movies.
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Let's talk about the job. Let's talk about the Railsback connection.
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Let's talk about the stuntman.
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But let's start with, uh, let's start with you. You have connections in the film business.
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Tell us about your journey into filmmaking and your inspiration cinematically and otherwise.
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Well, I think I was telling you, my father's the oldest of six boys.
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They grew up in Wichita Falls, Texas.
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And my uncle Steve is in the middle of the pack there.
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He ended up moving to New York in the early, I want to say the late 60s,
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early 70s, and was really a stage theater actor.
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Yes. And I think his first film was with, was The Visitors.
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And Ilya Kazan was the director for that. Yeah.
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So he started off with a bang, really. And then he went on to do,
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I guess Helter Skelter would have been his first really big one.
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But he did a lot of stage stuff, too.
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So, anyways, he's a great guy. And he's been a great influence on me and really helped me.
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I think the biggest influence, the direct influence on me is just really how to talk to actors.
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Right and and to try and create a safe space
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for them so they can go out and create and do their thing without you know without
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any fear he's a big fan of saying you know dive off the diving board into the
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ocean and and no fear and and i think if you look at his acting i mean that's
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that's how he lives and he's just
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he's just absolutely goes for it so he's really inspirational guy good,
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And so obviously he's been probably one of the, one of the best teachers you've
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had throughout your ascendance, having so much experience in, you know,
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many different types of film and filmmaking.
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Yeah. And, and I, through him, I got to be friends with Richard Rush,
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who was the director of the stuntman. Yes.
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And this is kind of a side story, but I'm a commercial airline pilot for my day job. Okay, cool.
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And Richard was actually a very accomplished pilot on his own,
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not a commercial pilot, but he had a number of airplanes.
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And so as he got older, he had lost his, his FAA physical, so he couldn't fly anymore.
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Right, right. So Steve, Steve put us together and asked me to take him flying.
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So Richard and I would go out flying and we'd go up and down the Malibu coast
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and then drop into Santa Monica and have lunch.
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And, uh, to be honest, I didn't really quite understand who I was hanging out with at the time.
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Right, right. And, and, well, it was just a couple of pilots hanging out.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. I knew he was a director. I knew he did the stuntman.
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Right, yeah. But I, as I'm sitting there one day, I got this guy,
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you mind if I tell a little story? Yeah, go.
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So we're at this, this Asian place that looks out on the runway in Santa Monica
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and having, it was famous. They had like fried insects.
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I mean, he had like fried grasshoppers there and stuff like that.
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So we're having lunch and Harrison Ford, Harrison Ford walks by and this was
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probably 20, 20 years ago, 15 years ago.
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And, and, you know, Harrison's, he's a movie star. He's a big, good looking guy.
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Yeah and all of a sudden the 80s kid is like holy
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these folks that's indiana jones walking by or han
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solo and i'm just like richard richard look that's that's harrison ford and
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richard didn't blink he put his uh he used to drink uh what was it uh is it
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the bob armstrong that's the lemonade iced tea right he puts it he puts his
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drink down and says oh i put him in his first movie and they just kept going like nothing happened.
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Wow and i was like wow i didn't
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quite i was like well i didn't know about that so i went home
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and fact-checked him and sure enough getting straight from 1970 was like one
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of harrison's first big speaking roles and getting straight was uh elliot gold
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and canis bergman so um so anyway that was the first that was my first clue
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that i was hanging out with somebody pretty special yeah that's amazing,
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I often ask the William Goldman thing about like movie stars aren't really as
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big as they look on screen like was Harrison Ford like relatively tall I was
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right back to being a 13 year old kid watching a movie,
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I can't tell I wasn't standing up I can't tell if he really was tall but he
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felt very tall and very broad to me and he had a striking I mean he's a beautiful
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man right yeah I mean there's There's a reason why some of these people are
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movie stars because you see them just go, man, yeah, he is good looking.
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It amazes me. I mean, I photographed and filmed a lot of people and it's just
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very strange to me still that some people just, they look good on camera.
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Yeah. They had that. The camera. Or the youth factor. They just, yeah, the camera.
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The camera likes them and I can't, I can't tell you why, but it,
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but it does. It doesn't like me.
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It doesn't like me either. but I'm much better on the other side of the camera.
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I've got a face for radio, mate. That's a, yeah, that's why I'm here. But, uh,
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That's why I never became a movie star, just far too hideous.
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My audience either hasn't been born yet or it hasn't been born at all.
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So whereabouts did the concept or I guess the birth or the conception of this
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film, The Job, where did it come out of?
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Well, the original idea was I just wanted to work with Donna and Lejean again.
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Right. I made a short film with them a few years ago. Thank you.
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It was really the first one I directed. It's called The Down and Out in Vampire Hills.
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I apologize for not saying it. No, I would be kind of impressed if you had seen it.
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But it was my first attempt. And basically, we gathered our cast of creatives on weekends.
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And when everybody had a day off, we'd shoot some footage.
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Right, yeah. And it took us about a year to make the thing. Yeah.
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But it's about a houseless vampire that's living in a tent, and she gets evicted
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from her tent and has to get a job.
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And, of course, vampires have a hard time holding a job down because they kill people.
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Yeah. They suck at it.
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So we had a great time making it, and it was really fun.
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And the woman that wrote the original screenplay is the sister of one of my
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best friends, and she had written that screenplay. And she's wonderfully original.
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And Donna wanted to, you know, I was looking for another project to do with Donna again.
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And I had always kind of seen Donna as maybe a gypsy fortune teller or something
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like that. So I was trying to come up with an idea of maybe a gypsy fortune
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teller and some kids in the woods kind of movie. And I was bouncing it off.
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Heather Withan Joseph is the woman I'm talking about.
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She said, well, what if we made Donna into an AI?
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And it kind of clicked on me that that could be kind of interesting.
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And down on where I live in Huntington Beach, there's a pier that goes out.
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It's a big touristy area.
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And on the pier, there's a Zoltan, the little fortune teller in a box. Right, yeah, from Beek.
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So I started thinking about, oh, well, what
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if we made her an AI and she's in
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a box and she's you know talking to people and any this
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this iteration evolved over many many i don't know how many drafts
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i had right right yeah and about the same
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time i started getting interested in ai because i
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just well i mean ai is a whole nother discussion about
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whether it's going to destroy us all or not but i figure i
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better experiment with it and see what happens yeah and
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so we ended up you know very intentionally using ai
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to help us i used to
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help to help me write the script okay and
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it was really i don't know have you been playing with it at all i've toyed with
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it yeah it's it's really interesting because it's it's clearly not human yeah
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you can't just say put a you know write me a script because it doesn't it just
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doesn't do a very good job yeah but what it's really good at is structure It's
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really good at organizing your thoughts.
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And then what I found as I kind of worked through this thing,
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you know, it would bounce something at me and then I'd go back and rewrite it.
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And I'd say, okay, what do you think about this?
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And you could give it prompts like, hey, what if we put a little Dusty Epsky
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in this or a little Camus or a little something something.
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And it would actually come up with some pretty, I hate to say it,
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it came up with some pretty good ideas. Yeah, yeah.
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And so I would incorporate some of that into the script.
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And it evolved into this story of Todd, who's a man with a secret and a past,
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and the AI interface is interviewing him for a job, but ultimately,
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you know, she discovers,
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or she brings it out of him, what's really bothering him.
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He doesn't really want a job, he's just really hiding from his past. Yeah, yes.
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It's kind of a long-winded way to say this thing, but it really is,
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it was really an evolution, and it was really a lot of fun to write.
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And then when we put it together to shoot, it was really, I mean,
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I really loved what Lejeune and Donna did with it. I mean, I'm just really impressed with those guys.
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Well, it kind of makes sense that you used
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AI to develop the idea because it's a movie where you're almost talking about
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the fact that is AI going to reach a point where it does develop something intuitive with the user?
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Whether it's you the user that personally subscribed to
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whatever ai it is or if it's just a general ai
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look at gtp scenario and
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it starts to have like like it starts to it starts to welcome your collaboration
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and every day and it and rather than just say hi how are you what can i do for
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you today it's like hey you look tired did you have oh yeah last night i had dreams Oh, what about?
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And then all of a sudden there's this, that, you know, we, we drift into this
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thing like, okay, now the AI is, is engaging with me on a personal level rather
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than just as subservient to randomize my ideas or something.
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And I think that's, that's, I think it's, it's definitely something to be afraid of.
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And I think it's also, it's really easy to just say, to let it do something
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and let it write it. Right. Yeah.
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And, uh, I think that's a real, it's a real danger. Yeah.
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You've probably heard the stories of people that are, you know,
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having deepened meaning with their AI, you know what I mean?
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No, and I think they are. And that's kind of how, you know, Athena in my story evolved.
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I mean, she, I was trying to be, there's so many negative AIs out there,
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you know, where the AI is just, you know, Terminator is going to destroy us all.
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I wanted to try and, you know, I wanted to be a little bit hopeful.
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And, you know, in the end, I think Athena helps bring out Todd's problem and
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is almost maternal in her helping him, you know, deal with his past.
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Well, she's, she, she's really sort of perfect for the role,
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Donna, because she's truly a woman of unsurpassing beauty.
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And we think of, we think of a construct as, as some sort of,
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you know, perfect, almost ethereal image.
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Was that all, was that all in camera or is there, is there any,
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is there any, like sort of, is there any sort of mood lighting on,
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on set to, to do anything or is it purely an opportunity?
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For me, cinematography-wise, this was kind of my big experiment with color.
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You know, there's quite a bit of color in it.
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Right, right. And so I was really trying to push color farther than I've personally
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done it before. Right, true.
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I actually, I even shot it on anamorphic lenses, although you can't really tell
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because the set was so small. And I mean, we shot this for essentially nothing.
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Right, yeah. And we shot it at a friend of mine's warehouse.
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You know, I made the sets out of Home Tito styrofoam, you know,
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so it was really about as indie as it gets.
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Right sure but but i i
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was just i thought that donna brought a real depth to
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the the role that i was hoping for and uh
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i can't say it was unexpected but i was really hoping that she would do it and
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i think if you see her at the beginning when she started talking to todd she's
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very stern and almost almost machine like you know and and then when he flips
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that last card the star over she to me that's where she really shines and she's
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the way her expression changes and she's just,
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like I said, almost maternal.
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Yeah, it becomes more soulful towards the...
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And so, you know, that to me is my positive outlook on AI.
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You know, maybe the next one I'll do, I might do a different version of it. I'm not sure.
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Well, I mean, it's, look, it's not something that is...
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A new thing that's been tackled in cinema.
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I mean, it's been around for ages. I remember movies like electric dreams and. Oh yeah. Yeah. Runaway.
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Um, you know, where the, the technology or, or of course people don't think
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sometimes it's a great, such a great movie, but that, uh, the one Stephen King
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directed where all the machinery, uh, what is it? Maximum overdrive.
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Oh, wow. All the machinery comes alive in the cars and they're trying to get
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people and all that sort of stuff.
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So, I mean, and of course, you know, the Terminator is another example and the
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Matrix and all that sort of stuff.
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So, I mean, look, I think like anything that's created by a person,
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ultimately it's only going to be as good as the people.
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It's either going to be as good or bad as the people that use it,
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you know, kind of like anything.
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Thing but the internet itself could
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could have been used for such wonderful things but
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it's used to spread such you know vitriolic hatred
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and and sometimes a lot of stupid stuff and
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you know you can become famous for
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exactly you know one million views in
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an hour now instead of 15 minutes or something
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like that so it's it's a crazy
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technology i'm afraid that
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you know i hate to say it it's it's probably just a mirror of humanity because
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you've got you could have web md and learn
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about cancer and how to solve things on on the
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internet or you could learn other terrible things and i think human beings are
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just deeply flawed yeah and i like to be optimistic i like to be hopeful i mean
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i've got kids and i want them to come into a world that's going to be as good
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as the one i came into and i liked it i hope that i'm going to make the world
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you know a little better.
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Well, and I hope, I mean, I hope they're, I hope they're going to try,
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you know, that's the optimistic side. And that's why, that's why this movie,
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you know, I could have made it pretty dark pretty early. And I tried to take an optimistic approach,
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I mean, they were dealing with some harsh tragedies, but at the same time,
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I wanted it to be optimistic, which is probably a reflection of me.
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Yeah. No, I mean, look, there was all the potential to keep going down that
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route where there is a dark edge to it, where in some ways the machine is manipulating,
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hence, in films like, what was that, Alex Garland one, Ex Machina?
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Deus Ex Machina? Yeah, Ex Machina. Yeah. Like, simply, like,
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planning to escape the whole time.
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But, you know, by the same token...
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Like you say, everything we do is a mirror.
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You make a film, like you say, this movie's a reflection of how I feel or my
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attitudes towards this particular subject.
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And I think what makes it special and what makes it different with indie films
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is that that type of filmmaking, what you're talking about, does still exist
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in indie filmmaking because it can.
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And when you work for a mainstream commercial side of things,
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they care about the bottom line.
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They don't really care about what you have to say or what you have to express.
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Like we need those pages by, you know, the close of business and,
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and you better make the changes or fire you and hire someone that will.
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So I could, you know, just, I could relate it to, you know, I told you Richard
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Rush was kind of my mentor and my friend, you know, he's a phenomenal. I'm a little director.
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And, you know, I met him later in life. And I asked him one time,
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I said, well, why haven't you made another movie? Because I think he made 14 films.
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And he kind of just didn't make any more. And I asked him why.
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He said, oh, I said, I can make a movie anytime I want.
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But they won't let me make the movie that I want to make.
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Yeah. And that's exactly, you know, that commercialism versus art.
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Yeah. But they want him to direct a movie, but not one that he wants to do.
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They want him to do. Exactly. One that they want to do. Exactly.
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I mean, have you ever seen Freebie and the Bean? yeah yeah sure so Freebie and
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the Beans his movie he could have he basically launched the whole buddy cop
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genre yeah and he could have he could have he could have made another five of
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those right right and the Ben Riches you know,
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anybody and he chose he chose not to he wouldn't make the stuff yeah yeah so
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that's what I liked about Richie like there's no like,
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He's, he's one of those directors that never repeated himself in many ways.
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Which, which today I think some of them are forced into it in a lot of ways.
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I'll keep doing that. The audience loved that. Do more of that.
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Do that. Well, I mean, it's about, I mean, you gotta make a living,
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but at the same time, uh, you try and sneak in something good while you're doing it. Yeah.
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The old Scorsese method, one for, one for them and one for me or one for us
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and one for them or whatever it is.
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You know, I mean, because, I mean, but, I mean, the thing is these passion projects
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that these directors hold on to, I mean, sometimes it's a great effect,
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but, you know, oftentimes,
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you know, I mean, as has been evidenced by some of the, the big opuses that
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have come out over the last year or so, that people have been hocking all of
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their wineries and their real estate to make.
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Like, you know, it just goes to show that sometimes all the money in the world
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doesn't really help if your story is no good or you don't have anything to say,
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like, you know, in the case of the job.
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You know, whereas you're making it for no money, but you've still got,
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you've still got something interesting to, to say, regardless of,
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you know, the budget that's behind it.
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Well, I appreciate that. And I certainly tried. I mean, I was trying to talk
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about something, frankly, something I'm afraid of. I'm afraid of AI taking everybody's
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jobs and taking things away from us.
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And, uh, I think that's, and I think that's going to be a real threat for a lot of people.
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So, but I think it's important for us to talk about these things.
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And if the job sparks some conversations, that would be, that'd be fantastic. I would love that.
21:47
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's, it, it, like a lot of science fiction or good science
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fiction is, is like you say, a mirror. It's a reflection of what is,
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but it's also a prognostication of what.
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If we are complacent and we turn all of ourselves over to the machines.
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And I mean, as every day goes by, we're vastly in danger of that happening.
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I mean, I've seen generations now, a generation of children that they sit on
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benches beside one another, but their focus is on the screen in front of them.
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Oh, it's hard to watch. You know, I've got one in college, one about to go to college.
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And I will say my daughter, they've changed her testing processes where they do it like we used to do.
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They actually have to go in and write out their papers in ink. Oh, well done.
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And so the schools, I think we seem to, well, I think, I like to think that
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the system, you know, called the world is correcting itself.
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I think we've seen the dangers of too much social media, too much of the phones.
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And I think the schools are trying to correct that. And so hopefully,
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hopefully we can turn the ship.
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Yeah. Or we hit the iceberg.
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Like I try to be, I have to be optimistic. I'm trying to be optimistic.
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Iceberg right ahead.
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So you're a fan of, you're a fan of Turkey shoot. I am. I'm a big fan of Turkey
23:24
shoot and all things Brian Trenchard.
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And, uh, it doesn't like, it's, it's, it's a film that people it's,
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it's, it's long before divisive films. It was very divisive.
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There's people. It's the first Hunger Games. Yeah.
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Yeah. I mean, look, to me, it was like, I like those, I like futuristic prison
23:46
movies. So it was in that, look, I like prison films, but I like futuristic
23:51
prison films too, which is a whole nother genre.
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Cause you've got like Stuart Gordon's fortress in there and you've got like,
23:57
you know, other films like that, because they're usually like.
24:02
Oh, you know, like in Riddick, you know, they sent him to the worst hell hole
24:05
on a planet where there's no sunlight and all this sort of stuff.
24:09
And so, yeah, it falls into that.
24:11
It falls into the dystopian future meets the prison film.
24:16
So, yeah, I, man...
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There's nothing. Oh, I know the reverential, the reverential and sadly now no
24:23
longer with us, the reverential David Stratton to his, to the end of his career.
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And it's even in the documentary they made about him.
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He's just like, no, I've got nothing more to say about Turkey shoot.
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He just thought that he's just the movie just disgusted him on.
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You can see it in his face when they even show him clips. he's
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just like he can't bear to even like breathe
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in the same direction as the screen it just disgusts him
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that movie but i love it well steve
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uh he he really liked the director yeah that's why he went he he made the film
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but i will i i think he'd be okay if i said one funny story about the director
25:05
there's one scene where he had to get into a pond or a i think it was a pond
25:09
or a lake or something like that.
25:11
Yeah. And they're, you know, getting ready for it. And the, I guess the pyro
25:14
guys are chucking dynamite into the, uh, into the pond.
25:19
He's like, why are you throwing dynamite into the pond? Well,
25:23
there might be some crocodiles in it.
25:26
And they want to drive the crocodiles away. And Steve's like,
25:29
I'm not getting that water.
25:32
And so he got, he made Brian get in the water to show that there were no crocodiles
25:37
in it. That's fantastic.
25:40
Why are you throwing explosives in the water? Oh, that's okay.
25:43
We just want to drive the Crocs out, mate. So it'll be safe for you to swim in it.
25:47
I mean, that was totally the Australian way. Let's clear it with some dynamite.
25:51
Exactly. It sounds so Australian. I just love it. I love it. Yeah.
25:55
Yeah. That's terrible. Geez. They were wild and crazy days. Obviously he's got
25:58
tons of stories about the chaos that happened on that.
26:03
There's a whole documentary right there. Just sit down with Stephen at camera
26:07
and go, tell me everything you remember about turkey shit from getting hired
26:11
to getting fired. What the whole way.
26:15
I'm trying to get him to talk about it. He doesn't. I know it was an unpleasant experience.
26:20
Like the times I've seen. It's kind of a painful memory for him. Yeah, yeah.
26:23
Like the times I've seen him do clips, he's like pretty resentful.
26:26
He's like, ah, they, you know, the producers were con men and they,
26:31
you know, they stole half the money and they expected what, you know, like.
26:36
Yeah. He didn't have any kind words for the producers, which. Yeah.
26:39
They were pretty, I mean, back in those days, it was all about,
26:42
I mean, cause they were making so much.
26:45
They were technically making so much because of all the tax incentives.
26:50
So they were writing off a fair bit and then because they were writing off a
26:54
fair bit, they were just pocketing it, you know, left, right and center.
26:58
So, you know, there was a lot of embezzling Like not all of the money usually
27:02
ended up on the production.
27:04
Yeah. It didn't end up. It certainly didn't end up on the screen.
27:08
Yeah. No, it was going into like private hands and the people,
27:11
the people who are actually interested in making the movie were like left like, oh, okay.
27:16
Like wake up day to day. Oh, sorry. We can't film this today.
27:19
Cause we don't have any money or, or we don't have anything,
27:24
you know, the actors have just left or we can't, we can't, instead of a hundred
27:29
people, now you're going to have 10.
27:31
Right or five so it's like make do with whatever so,
27:37
Well, that would be Steve's influence on me is I try to get every penny onto
27:41
the screen that I've got, which of course is very little, but maybe someday
27:46
I'd like to parlay this film into maybe finding some money for the next film.
27:51
Always good stuff. And I hope you do get to make more, mate.
27:56
If you'd like to tell our listeners down before we run out of time where they
28:01
can see the job and your other great filmmaking.
28:05
Well, Down and Out Vampire Hills, I believe, is on YouTube right now.
28:09
But right now, we're in the middle of a festival run with the job.
28:12
So we're still bouncing around in festivals.
28:14
Next month, we're going to be in Culver City at the Culver City Film Festival.
28:19
So then I believe we're in the Big Bear Film Festival in March.
28:23
So just stick with your local festivals and hopefully we'll be there.
28:27
Awesome. We'll put everything in the links in the description.
28:31
But for right now, thank the fantastic.
28:34
Craig railsback for coming on the show it's a great film
28:37
the job my review for it will be coming eventually to filmthreat.com craig mate
28:45
thank you for coming on the show thank you for making such a great little piece
28:50
of sci-fi gold can't wait for what you got next mate thank you for coming on,
28:55
You got it. And great. And thanks for finding me. And I have to give one last
28:58
plug to my sound designer, Rena Walsinger.
29:01
She did an incredible job with the music and the sound. And she's my partner in Prime.
29:06
And I can't wait to do something else with her and Donna at Lijot.
29:09
We'll let you know as soon as we have something in the hopper.
29:12
Yes, Craig Ralsbach, the job.
29:14
Check the links in the description. It's getting around doing the festivals.
29:19
Check it out where and when you can. it is great
29:22
topical science fiction because it
29:25
affects all of us it's out the genie is out of
29:28
the bottle and ai is something that is
29:32
going to for better or for worse change our future how we use it what we do
29:37
with it that is up to us whether it is for good or for evil will be decidedly
29:43
in the hands of humanity but for right now it's part of our storytelling the
29:48
job check it out craig Railsback, great bloke.
29:51
Check the links in the description.
29:54
And as always, my little Eugenites, thank you for listening to us on Spotify
30:00
or wherever you choose to listen to your favourite podcasts.
30:03
I'm Kent Hill and until next time, you've been listening to Cinema.
30:09
Little Degrees.