Latest / Sacrilegious Discourse - Bible Study for Atheists / 2 Maccabees Chapters 11 - 15 Q&A: Bible Study by Atheists

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2 Maccabees Chapters 11 - 15 Q&A: Bible Study by Atheists · Sacrilegious Discourse - Bible Study for Atheists

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: How's Ben?
0:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Why?
0:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what we're doing today?
0:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we've already finished second macabees.
0:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, it's fuck half.
0:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Which means that today we're probably answering some things, doing some what we're doing.
0:15
[SPEAKER_00]: We're doing a Q&A.
0:16
[SPEAKER_01]: We're doing a Q&A.
0:17
[SPEAKER_00]: We're doing a Q&A, but not on Saturday.
0:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Correct.
0:21
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the final chapters of second macadudos.
0:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
0:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and we didn't have a lot of questions because there was a lot of names and a lot of things going on that we didn't quite understand Yeah, I'm kind of looking forward to this.
0:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah me too.
0:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, all right, but we're this much closer to wrapping up and getting into the new testament to which I know burn is very excited about Speaking of which all firm can talk about we are the only thing firm will say is, but are we there yet speaking of which we're doing this live on discord
0:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Where Furn is letting me know how much they cannot wait till we start the new testament.
1:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so yes, but if you would like, you should dress on discord as well.
1:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So you could be with Furn and tell wife how much wife is wasting time and not getting there.
1:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:25
[SPEAKER_01]: 10 p.m. eastern on a discord every two of the way actually know that's probably got to be changing so yeah I do we just talked about this so I we it's probably going to end up we're probably going to be doing Sundays I don't know what time yet but back you know get back check out the website and do the things join us in discord and we'll tell you because those are the things that are happening but you join us because fun and then wife might go off about you on you know our podcasts like she just did.
1:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I just did.
1:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so yeah.
1:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, and then it throws husband off and he just dares to be blankly.
1:57
[SPEAKER_00]: That's pretty much what I was scripted.
1:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And so he's like, I don't know what to say now.
2:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And his face is blank panic.
2:04
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so then this is a second back of these chapters 11 through 15.
2:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Q&A.
2:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Not on Saturday.
2:11
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's do this.
2:11
[SPEAKER_00]: OK, OK.
2:18
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, we are finishing off the second Maca doodles, which is the Maca doodly is to all the doodles.
2:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It's sure the fuck is.
2:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm very excited about this because this this episode ends it.
2:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It's done.
2:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, Matt really do have to do a Maca.
2:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I was going to say macarappa.
2:35
[SPEAKER_01]: We're still, yeah, that you can't say that because then that indicates we'd be in the New Testament.
2:40
[SPEAKER_01]: The next.
2:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, I know.
2:41
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, but I am going to say this.
2:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to do a one episode macadoonal wrap up and it's going to talk about both of the doodles and the, um, what is it, what is it called when you're always wrong?
2:57
[SPEAKER_00]: your always wrong that one yeah yeah and um yeah so that's what i'm going to do okay i'm going to do all in one okay and that way so that's going to be the last macadudos and then the one after that that'll be where we start talking about the new testament okay yeah are you good with that i'm good with that okay so chapters 11 through 15 what the fuck
3:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know.
3:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there was wars, but there's always wars.
3:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
3:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay.
3:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So, chapter 11, let's talk about it.
3:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's do it.
3:33
[SPEAKER_00]: That one was called Judas Maccabees' Cases Campaigns.
3:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
3:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he did some campaigning.
3:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
3:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Not like political campaigning where he goes door to door and hopes you vote for him.
3:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It's his war machine campaigns.
3:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, where he goes door to door and kills people.
3:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
3:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
3:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
3:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Chapter 11 describes Judas and his brothers continuing their military campaigns to free Judea from psilasic control.
4:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're trying to get out from under the Greeks.
4:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's that's that's one way to put it.
4:05
[SPEAKER_01]: They also when they had the opportunity to try to expand their borders.
4:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
4:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're very worry.
4:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
4:12
[SPEAKER_00]: But right, but this is.
4:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and no, like that's a little bit later.
4:18
[SPEAKER_00]: That's in the next chapter, so I think chapter 12.
4:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever.
4:21
[SPEAKER_00]: In chapter 11, they're still under salacious and control.
4:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I got it.
4:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just saying, I'm just saying they like to present themselves as these righteous people who are defending their homeland and all this, but then they're like, no, but then let's go kill other people.
4:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, but in chapter 11, they are still under psilasic control, and so they're being forced to give up their Jewish ways, their Jewish traditions, they're not allowed to practice any of their practices.
4:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
4:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, the Greeks are still controlling their daily life.
4:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not that you're wrong, it's just that we're not there yet, okay, that chapter 12.
4:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
4:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
5:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So in chapter 11, they're like, fuck the Greeks.
5:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
5:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So Judas fights at Amaz in the first verse and then he fights at Giza and other towns.
5:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
5:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And the Salais said general gorgeous.
5:16
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
5:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, remember, I could remember how to say his name, but it's just forever gorgeous now.
5:21
[SPEAKER_00]: He's forever gorgeous.
5:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
5:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
5:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to say it's like, Gorgias or something like that.
5:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
5:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But Gorgias is just so much more fun.
5:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
5:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's the Greek general, and he attempts to ambush Judas with 9,000 troops.
5:37
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so weak because later they come at them with like 120,000 and then 110,000 right 9,000 fuck what the fucking is that and he gets to eat it, it's nothing now I did read a note that said that all of these large several tens of thousands of
5:54
[SPEAKER_00]: fighters is way ridiculous, like obviously ridiculous over the top because there's no way they could even even fed that many.
6:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
6:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So they there was no way to control that.
6:05
[SPEAKER_01]: It seemed ridiculous to me too.
6:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
6:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like there's no fucking way.
6:09
[SPEAKER_00]: There's probably more even that many people like alive at that time.
6:14
[SPEAKER_00]: At least not many that like fell under the same like yeah, I'll be a soldier for you.
6:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
6:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
6:20
[SPEAKER_00]: That sounds great.
6:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
6:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So a military expedition to Judea was led by the Regent Lycius, who was the guardian of young King and Taya kiss the fifth.
6:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
6:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
6:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
6:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've got which was a Taya kiss you, but what, right?
6:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, correct.
6:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that is correct.
6:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've got the Salaised General Gorgeous and then we've got King and Tyacus the fifth and his region like the S. Sure.
6:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
6:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And Judas and the Jews pray to God for deliverance and for him to send an angel to defend Israel.
6:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
7:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And that happened.
7:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, according to the book, it's sure.
7:03
[SPEAKER_01]: The fuck did.
7:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
7:04
[SPEAKER_00]: A mysterious horseman and white garments and golden weapons appears near Jerusalem to aid Judas' army.
7:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yay.
7:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
7:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So the Battle of Bethesur is a result of all this.
7:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
7:17
[SPEAKER_00]: The Maccabees and their heavenly ally, they win a resounding of course because God's on their side.
7:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you know, gold,
7:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're not even to the golden sword yet, are we?
7:30
[SPEAKER_01]: That's late.
7:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, no, but he's dressed in gold.
7:32
[SPEAKER_00]: He has gold in black.
7:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, let's wear this.
7:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a mysterious horseman.
7:35
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
7:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Garments.
7:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
7:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And gold in black.
7:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I forgot we had two gold.
7:38
[SPEAKER_00]: We had two gold.
7:39
[SPEAKER_00]: This guy.
7:40
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a guy dressed in white with gold weapons.
7:43
[SPEAKER_00]: He appeared.
7:44
[SPEAKER_00]: right did you get that yeah okay so it's a mysterious horseman in white garments and golden weapons okay he appears so of course the macabees and they're heavenly ally win in a resounding victory yeah okay liceus and his expedition are forced to shamefully retreat they're like oh if only we had
8:09
[SPEAKER_00]: That guy's so cool.
8:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that god, man.
8:12
[SPEAKER_00]: If only only he was like our God, that's totally what they were saying.
8:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
8:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
8:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe that.
8:18
[SPEAKER_01]: No way whatsoever.
8:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So as they're backing off, Judas is capturing strategic towns and he's purging pagan altars.
8:26
[SPEAKER_00]: He's restoring Judas warship according to law.
8:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he's going all over the place spread Jewish worship.
8:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
8:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he said judish.
8:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I did because I, because I made a mistake.
8:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I swear.
8:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I was hoping that you would not catch my slatter.
8:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
8:46
[SPEAKER_00]: But you did catch it, but you're an asshole.
8:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
8:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
8:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, he restores Jewish warship according to Jewish law.
8:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
8:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's going around like, yeah, Judaism is awesome.
8:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Be a Jew.
9:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so great.
9:01
[SPEAKER_00]: We get a golden angel guy and we get to beat all of those great guys.
9:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
9:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So Lysia is not being a fool.
9:10
[SPEAKER_00]: He realizes that the Hebrews are invincible.
9:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Hold on.
9:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to stop you right there.
9:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the reason mean because like we've talked about
9:19
[SPEAKER_01]: The Jewish folks, losing in battles before, right?
9:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And they always blame themselves for not worshiping the own God enough, right?
9:25
[SPEAKER_01]: We suck so hard.
9:27
[SPEAKER_01]: What makes you think it would be any different for any other culture?
9:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, why would they, why would they embody the ideals of this other God instead of taking upon themselves their failure to meet their own God's expectations?
9:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Just kind of one of the differences though, um, the Jewish people, they're so ready to blame themselves all the time, like they walk around in constant defeat, pre-programmed for to accept whatever they've done wrong, because they've been brainwashed into believing that everything is their fault anyway.
9:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But I just don't buy the fact that there's these other cultures out there going, man, that God is so awesome.
10:04
[SPEAKER_01]: He beat us, that's not what's happening.
10:07
[SPEAKER_01]: They're, they're, they're, they're seeing the loss from their own perspective.
10:11
[SPEAKER_01]: We're hearing about it from a Jewish perspective, where they're putting their own thoughts and ideas into these people.
10:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And yes and, but also.
10:20
[SPEAKER_00]: They have their own records, we have seen some of their own records.
10:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And some of their own records do indicate that they were like, man, we lost that sucks for us.
10:33
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll sure.
10:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But they're not like either our God failed us because we suck nor are they like man, they're God is so strong.
10:43
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just like, we lost the battle man.
10:47
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, I imagine it would be much like losing a battle today.
10:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you don't, if God didn't show up, which let's be honest, God didn't show up.
10:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, like that's not that's not real.
10:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes.
10:58
[SPEAKER_01]: you're just going to be like, man, that's suck we lost, you know, like, that's how that, that's how that goes.
11:04
[SPEAKER_01]: His people have to the fact injecting God into these battles for the sake of their religion to make a sound more holier, whatever the fuck they want to make, make a sound like, that's causing these things to come up in the book.
11:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So you tell me, you don't think that Jesus is very excited about Artemis going around the moon?
11:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, okay, we talked about this a little bit on a live discord, but like I was a little distraught Disturban distraught and and look, I haven't been paying enough attention to know all the ins and outs, but there was like Where's a quote from the guy that's running that that's the captain number And he was like doing a Jesus quote, and then he came back to us.
11:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean great likes it that we're going around the moon
11:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it came back to the NASA headquarters and the person that was speaking there also did like a guy Jesus quote type thing and I'm like what the fuck is happening this is science stop talking about Jesus and God and see I hear that and like well I pointed out was they're whole
12:10
[SPEAKER_00]: all the money that they get, all of their funding depends on the crazy fucks that are in charge of the government right now and those guys are crazy Christians and so they're like yes praise Jesus can NASA have your dollars so that we can do science, big science because in praise of God, because God loves science and discovering things but in the glory of God, God and glory and God in Jesus and God.
12:34
[SPEAKER_01]: but there's so much amazing shit in science that it just stands on its own legs.
12:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But it doesn't.
12:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I agree with you.
12:40
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't need the extra.
12:43
[SPEAKER_01]: your shit thrown in.
12:44
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not seeing anything that's not true, but you're also not being realistic.
12:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And must be honest, the fucking astrophysicists and then all the whatever whoever the fucks writes all the the code and the plans all the shit and play a night now, but whatever.
12:58
[SPEAKER_00]: All the masses.
12:59
[SPEAKER_01]: They they they're the ones that got these people there.
13:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't it wasn't God.
13:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not.
13:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It was completely death.
13:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't disagree with you and I'm sure that like at least 80% of the scientists and astronauts and astrophysicists and all them guys, I'm sure that at least 80% of NASA agrees with you.
13:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I also think that they are in the program and see the bigger picture, which is we don't have to believe what we're saying.
13:26
[SPEAKER_00]: We just have to say it because we won't, we're not going to throw ourselves
13:36
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not being the the son of of the Jewish woman right now.
13:41
[SPEAKER_00]: They are eating the bacon so that they can get the money Do you understand when I'm referencing?
13:46
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I get it.
13:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess sometimes you you have to be like, yes I totally love Jesus.
13:52
[SPEAKER_00]: He is awesome.
13:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for funding NASA
13:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's just such a turn-off instead of like, you know, but the one giant step for mankind, you know, that's your brain humanity as a whole.
14:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Which they did some of that, too, like they tried to bring us, and if they tried to put into perspective the entire world when they were talking to.
14:12
[SPEAKER_01]: So there were some good things that were said, but it was also couched in a religious tone at some level, too.
14:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was just like, could we just, if we just left that off and just made humanity one group that's working together to be better,
14:25
[SPEAKER_01]: That sounds more overall, and that accepts everybody that allows everybody to participate.
14:31
[SPEAKER_00]: But you're speaking as a humanist and a humanitarian, and if people were more humanists and humanitarian, we wouldn't be where we are politically right now anyway.
14:44
[SPEAKER_00]: It would make the whole conversation move.
14:47
[SPEAKER_00]: The fact that there is Jesus in our NASA is like, that is the problem, the problem is the problem, you know what I mean?
14:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, but that's why I was saying something about it.
14:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know, and I told, I totally get it, like I agree with you.
15:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't disagree with you.
15:05
[SPEAKER_00]: All I'm saying is, but I can also see why they did what they did and said what they said.
15:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just like, it's like, I take issue with it on many levels.
15:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, if you are coming out of surgery and the surgeons there and like, yeah, you pulled through and the person in the media is like, Oh, thank God.
15:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, no, thank.
15:21
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just fucking got you through the surgery because literally they got you through this.
15:27
[SPEAKER_00]: No, totally.
15:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I totally agree.
15:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever.
15:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just it's this whole attributing things to people that attributing things to a thing that doesn't really do the thing that you said.
15:36
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
15:37
[SPEAKER_00]: It takes away from the glory of the people and there are accomplishments.
15:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
15:41
[SPEAKER_00]: No, totally agree.
15:42
[SPEAKER_01]: That that surgeon did an amazing thing for you.
15:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Because of God.
15:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what they would say.
15:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyways, Lyceus, he is like, oh, this sucks.
15:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So not being a fool, he realizes that the Hebrews are invincible because they're got it so cool, right?
16:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And also because they keep winning.
16:04
[SPEAKER_00]: whether their God is cool or not, the Jews keep winning.
16:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
16:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's like, fuck me.
16:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So he negotiates to end hostilities, okay?
16:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And this chapter ends in four different letters, the show that that's happening, yeah, yeah.
16:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And these documents are pretty much historically accurate histories as they exist.
16:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they kind of covered them in the first Mac of these two, which kind of lens credens to this.
16:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
16:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, they detail negotiations with Lyceus and the Roman Republic, and they are dated to about 163 to 161 BCE.
16:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So that gives us an idea of not just when these letters were written, but when this book was actually compiled and put together.
16:50
[SPEAKER_00]: The one sixties is where we've settled.
16:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
16:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
16:54
[SPEAKER_00]: BCEs.
16:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
16:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So that gets us closer to the zero line of the Jesus years.
17:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so second macabees is about as close as we can get like accurately.
17:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So these were written around the same time that this was happening?
17:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, no, but it was compiled.
17:12
[SPEAKER_00]: The letters were written as it was happening.
17:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
17:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And then everything the book was compiled.
17:19
[SPEAKER_00]: like shortly thereafter.
17:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I see.
17:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So, okay.
17:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
17:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
17:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So, in reality, because they changed the the way that they referenced time in MACB specifically.
17:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
17:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So, in the sound when you're saying the 160 that it is 100, that's same time frame, but it's not because it was more like 300 or two.
17:38
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I've already accounted for that change.
17:41
[SPEAKER_00]: When I say 160 BCE, I'm actually saying 160 BCE is when these letters are dated too.
17:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it, so, okay, all the letters are okay.
17:52
[SPEAKER_00]: The letters were written in about 163 to 163 to 161 BC.
17:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess what I'm asking, did you find out when, like, approximately, I think, that the second mac was written?
18:04
[SPEAKER_00]: No, actually I'm going to, yes and no, I started to go down that rabbit hole when I was looking at the date of this letter, but remember I am going to be covering all the macadudos.
18:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
18:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're going to cover that time period and authorship and stuff in our next episode.
18:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
18:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Right now, I don't want to get lost in the weeds.
18:24
[SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about chapter 11 and these letters.
18:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And these letters were written.
18:31
[SPEAKER_00]: 163 to 161 BCE, okay, not S-E, which would be 163 years after the Babylonian exile, okay?
18:44
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the time period that you're thinking of, okay?
18:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
18:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, when we say S-E,
18:52
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the, like, rather than AG or BCS, the letter S, E, like S for Salacid, and I forget what the E stands for, but that meant so many years after the Babylonian exile, remember that?
19:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we had a whole thing about that kind of yeah.
19:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what you're kind of getting this confused with, okay?
19:16
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not talking about with regard to so many years after the Babylonian Exile.
19:22
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not talking about that.
19:23
[SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about period the end BCE, 160 BCE.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
19:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Right with me?
19:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
19:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
19:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So the four letters in this chapter are not in chronological order and the first third and fourth documents are separate from the second one.
19:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
19:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
19:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, and I did kind of mix myself up there.
19:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, the first, third and fourth documents are dated to 148 S.E.
19:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Which that's the 148 years after the Babylonian exile.
20:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
20:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And that would be equivalent to 165 to 164 BCE.
20:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
20:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the second document, it's undated.
20:11
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's written on Antichrist the fifth's behalf.
20:15
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
20:15
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, he's like the kid.
20:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
20:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So that suggests that's where I got the date of 163 to 161 BCE.
20:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So all of these were written in the 160 BCE's okay.
20:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah around that time frame that that 10 year that decade.
20:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
20:32
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
20:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
20:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
20:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, this chapter chapter 11 of second macabees overlaps and aligns with first macabees chapters five and six where Judas campaigns and he purges the pagan sites and he describes all that so that gives us some overlap there.
20:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay, the amaze ambush is also mentioned in first macabees in chapter six.
21:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
21:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So now we're moving on to chapter 12.
21:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
21:05
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, chapter 12 is about Judas' army and religious observance.
21:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So we won, right?
21:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yay, we won the war.
21:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
21:15
[SPEAKER_01]: But they've never won the war, but okay.
21:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they always win for like five seconds.
21:19
[SPEAKER_00]: They're awesome, they're God is great, and then they do bad.
21:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
21:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So yay!
21:23
[SPEAKER_00]: We're on top of the world.
21:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Chapter 12 discusses the struggles between the Jews and their neighbors in the Greater Palestine region.
21:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
21:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
21:33
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the part where you were talking about how it's more like they were trying to expand their territory.
21:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly.
21:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, the coastal city of Java, doors, the local Jews onto boats and then sinks them, killing about 200 people.
21:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
21:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And by people, we mean the wives and children.
21:52
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
21:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, let's be specific.
21:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't just people.
21:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I specifically remember it was the wives and children.
21:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
21:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So Judas infiltrates the city at night sets fire to the port and it's boats and he kills some locals to take revenge for the atrocity because that is godlike.
22:09
[SPEAKER_00]: We love us vengeance, don't we?
22:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
22:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Judas then burns the boats at Jamia as a reprisal for a similar anti-Jewish incident.
22:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
22:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So Judas is all over the place.
22:22
[SPEAKER_00]: He's going all these other little towns and he's like, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you and fuck you.
22:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, more accounts of the campaigns in outlying regions gets described vaguely against Timothy, gorgeous, and other people.
22:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is also supposed to have taken place about 163 BC.
22:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
22:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So after their victory, Judas' army collects the spoils and they pray for fallen soldiers.
22:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's one of the first times that we kind of see that where they're praying for their dead.
22:56
[SPEAKER_00]: which is interesting and Judas pays a torment for soldiers who had died with idolatry or sin showing early Jewish practices of praying for their dead like not just praying for, but also paying a torment for.
23:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And that light goes way back to like early Old Testament stuff, like
23:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember all those early sin, I forgot what they're called like sin fees, sin, I forgot what the word was like the atonement and the sin and they had ones for wheat and one for
23:44
[SPEAKER_00]: All the sacrifices, yeah, yeah, all the sacrifices.
23:47
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
23:48
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
23:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Send offering.
23:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, send offering.
23:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Offering.
23:52
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the word.
23:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
23:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
23:55
[SPEAKER_00]: This is like they do an atonement offering for their dead and like they haven't done that in ages.
24:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
24:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is interesting.
24:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
24:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And here we see an emphasis on obedience to mosaic law and proper worship.
24:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, that's what I said.
24:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It goes way back to early days.
24:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
24:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So with regard to how it overlaps with first macabees, this chapter is unique to second macabees.
24:23
[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't see this in first macabees.
24:26
[SPEAKER_00]: First macabees chapters three through six does not mention prayers for the dead.
24:31
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
24:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Which again, that's really interesting that we're like going back to like the start.
24:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
24:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
24:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
24:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
24:39
[SPEAKER_00]: We're like, hmm, let's get real Jewish here.
24:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's get old school Jewish.
24:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, every time things get, you know, there's every time there's death and then I don't know.
24:48
[SPEAKER_00]: We got to rally the crowds.
24:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go back.
24:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
24:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
24:52
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
24:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It reflects Jewish law principles seen in the Torah in numbers and due to autonomy regarding sin and atonement.
25:01
[SPEAKER_01]: God.
25:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
25:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So now we move on to chapter 13, which is about Judas' death and funeral.
25:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
25:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So Lyceus, remember he's the regent for kid and techias, lyceus orders the execution
25:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Mental AIS?
25:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
25:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Judas, Harry's Lyceus expedition with minor victories.
25:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Lyceus leaves and returns to the capital of Antioch to face the Eucerper Philip.
25:37
[SPEAKER_00]: This is all around 163 to 162 BCE.
25:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Likely near the time to the Battle of Beth, Zekaria or Zekoraia.
25:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
25:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
25:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
25:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a lot of confusion in the second macabees timeline because the author whoever it was, whatever priest guide wrote or compiled this, he sometimes crams two separate battles into one like the Bethesira battle.
26:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
26:14
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not certain whether he's talking about the
26:21
[SPEAKER_00]: battle, but there were two.
26:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
26:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's kind of confusing.
26:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Which lends to the idea that it was probably written much later than during this time frames.
26:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
26:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
26:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So Judas Maccabee is dies and battle against bucketies.
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Back, back, back.
26:39
[SPEAKER_00]: who is a salaised general during an encounter in Giliad.
26:43
[SPEAKER_01]: That's weird.
26:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I hardly remember that.
26:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like Judas was with us the whole time through the rest of the battles here.
26:50
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's because we're at Chapter 13.
26:52
[SPEAKER_00]: There's only two chapters left after that.
26:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't believe you didn't even look at me when I went.
26:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you're so used to my weird noises that they didn't face you.
27:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to point them out.
27:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
27:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So when Judas dies, his body is taken to Maudine and is buried with honor.
27:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
27:11
[SPEAKER_00]: His death deeply affects the Jewish people, but the revolt continues under his brother.
27:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
27:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
27:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:19
[SPEAKER_00]: that's kind of it for that chapter.
27:21
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a little bit of overlap with first macabees.
27:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It matches chapter nine, which also describes Judas's death and burial at modeme.
27:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
27:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But then that's it.
27:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So we move on to chapter 14, which is about peace and political negotiations, negotiations,
27:42
[SPEAKER_01]: negotiation.
27:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Negotiations.
27:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Like suddenly that word never said it before my entire life.
27:48
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
27:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So in this chapter.
27:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Demetrius the first becomes king.
27:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Alcimus who had replaced Manoleus as the high priest is affirmed by Demetrius the first.
28:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
28:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's who the king was.
28:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember we're like, who's a fucking king?
28:05
[SPEAKER_00]: What the fuck?
28:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It was.
28:08
[SPEAKER_01]: to me, trius.
28:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Demetrius.
28:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
28:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And Alcimus is now the high priest, Albus Dumbledore.
28:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Sort of.
28:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So Nickenor is a pointed governor of Judea.
28:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
28:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've got all these puppet leaders.
28:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Nick and Orange, Judas, and turn negotiations for peace, but are subverted by Alchemist, who complains to the king, because he does not like them but he not.
28:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was gonna say, yeah, they got buddy buddy and Alchemist didn't like that.
28:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, all this was like excuse y'all.
28:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You are not to be friends.
28:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I do not like it.
28:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
28:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And also why wasn't I part of the group chat.
28:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
28:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
28:50
[SPEAKER_00]: That I think that's what it was.
28:51
[SPEAKER_00]: He was just sad because he didn't get invited to the barbecue.
28:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
29:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You're like, we, he just died, Judas died in the last chapter of the Fox.
29:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So these are out of order.
29:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
29:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's another, yeah, that's what I was going to say.
29:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought Judas was there the rest of the fucking times.
29:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So he died, but yeah, then we're going back in time.
29:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Really, really, really, really, really.
29:22
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, all right.
29:23
[SPEAKER_00]: He died in 13, but then we're talking about 14, where he's still alive.
29:28
[SPEAKER_01]: That's really weird.
29:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the way these go.
29:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
29:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like they're not chronological.
29:34
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just different stories.
29:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
29:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Chapter 13 is like, remember this battle?
29:39
[SPEAKER_00]: That's when he died.
29:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And then Chapter 14 is like, remember that battle?
29:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Where you're still alive?
29:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay.
29:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, I feel like whoever compiled this did it wrong.
29:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they did the whole book wrong.
29:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
29:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's be honest.
29:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
29:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Whoever compiled all the compilations.
29:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is the entire Bible.
29:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
29:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So, this is the latest of general.
30:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It is negotiates a temporary piece with the Jews, bucketies with draws, and Jews have religious freedom, but only temporarily.
30:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And then some Jews are broad to accept Salais' set authority, but faithful resistance continues.
30:21
[SPEAKER_00]: This chapter mostly takes place in Judea, but some of the towns surrounding it that are under Salais' influence are mentioned.
30:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And this chapter overlaps with first macabees, chapters 9 and 10 where Bockeys campaign and temporary trusses are described.
30:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
30:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
30:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's it for chapter 14.
30:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
30:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
30:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Now we move into chapter 15 and we get the continued struggle and martyrdom stories.
30:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And then at the end of the chapter, we also get this weird little epilogue.
30:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
30:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was fucking me.
30:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
30:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
31:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So weird.
31:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
31:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a note about that.
31:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
31:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's just like the last two verses.
31:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
31:06
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to talk about those.
31:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
31:08
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just going to talk about the bulk of the chapter.
31:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Chapter 15 is mostly about the continued struggle and martyrdom stories.
31:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So Nick and North threatens to destroy the temple.
31:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And in a dream vision, oh, nice that third and the prophet Jeremiah,
31:23
[SPEAKER_00]: give Judas a divine golden sword.
31:26
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where you buy a golden weapon right from.
31:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
31:30
[SPEAKER_00]: at the Battle of Adasa, Judas, Defeat and Kills Nicanor preserving the sanctity of the temple and the day of Nicanor festival is established.
31:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yay!
31:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's where we put severed heads in our yards.
31:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and John and Ian, yeah, yeah.
31:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was about 161 BCE.
31:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, hey.
31:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys all celebrate Nicanor Day, right?
31:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
31:53
[SPEAKER_01]: With severed heads in your yard.
31:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, especially for Jewish, right?
31:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, yeah.
31:57
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing.
31:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So, Salais did oppression continues under the generals like Nick and War who does try, of course, to destroy the Jewish people because he's a villain.
32:08
[SPEAKER_00]: He's bad, bad, bad.
32:10
[SPEAKER_02]: And brave, right?
32:10
[SPEAKER_00]: The Jews demonstrate courage, and piety, and some are martyred rather than betray their faith.
32:17
[SPEAKER_00]: and this chapter highlights the theme of divine justice and miraculous deliverance, you know, they get their magic sword.
32:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
32:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
32:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
32:27
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a bunch of martyrs in this chapter, but they go unnamed.
32:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're just unnamed Jews who remain faithful.
32:34
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what martyr me.
32:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
32:37
[SPEAKER_01]: There was the one guy, what's his name?
32:41
[SPEAKER_01]: We got it.
32:41
[SPEAKER_01]: He had his bowels.
32:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, that was, I think, in 14 or so.
32:45
[SPEAKER_00]: That was in 14.
32:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, they named him.
32:48
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, but he was an in chapter 15.
32:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
32:50
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why.
32:51
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a crazy story.
32:53
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a crazy fucking story.
32:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
32:55
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a ridiculous crazy story.
32:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
32:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's where this chapter overlaps with first macabees.
33:04
[SPEAKER_00]: OK.
33:05
[SPEAKER_00]: This bit is mentioned in first macabees, Chapter 7, where Nick and Noah's defeat is described.
33:13
[SPEAKER_00]: but then martyrology and divine intervention are emphasized way more in second macabees.
33:22
[SPEAKER_00]: because let's not forget that first Macabees was just a straight board military account.
33:28
[SPEAKER_00]: It was so boring, and it was like, and then this and this and this and it was like, run on sentences and he did this to him over there with those and we're like, what even did you just say?
33:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
33:40
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, now we get to the epitomus epilogue, okay?
33:46
[SPEAKER_00]: versus 37 through 39 are a brief statement from the epitomist, which I just love that word.
33:54
[SPEAKER_00]: He wrote the epilogue.
33:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, he did.
33:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Concluding the history.
33:59
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, wasn't God.
34:00
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, it was a dude.
34:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a dude.
34:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and he wrote this, concluding the history, expressing his hope that the reader enjoys the word and apologizing if the reader didn't.
34:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, really fucking weird.
34:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Huck at the end of a mid summer nice dream when he's like saying I hope that you liked this and we're insulted by the story but if you were just remember it was done in Justin it was me don't blame them.
34:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm the one that did a sorry sorry sorry sorry.
34:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
34:34
[SPEAKER_00]: We just depart as friends.
34:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
34:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
34:36
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what this reminded me of.
34:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like oh my god are you puck?
34:39
[SPEAKER_01]: that's so cute.
34:42
[SPEAKER_01]: But it just, it doesn't sit well and no, the Bible.
34:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a lot of people that take issue with it.
34:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
34:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
34:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So the other apparently did not consider whatever happened in Jerusalem after Judas' defeat, as sufficiently bad to contradict the statement.
34:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
35:00
[UNKNOWN]: Or,
35:00
[SPEAKER_00]: he was referring only to the temple sanctuary rather than the city as a whole.
35:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Or he did not intend to extend the claim beyond Nick and Norse's death, okay?
35:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Because he just stopped right at Nick and Norse's death.
35:15
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, and the end, and I hope you like that story.
35:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's like a lot of like, whoa, what the fuck?
35:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, verse 37 suggests that second macabees was unlikely to have been written after 63 BCE, 63 BCE, not 163 BCE, 63, where I'm real close to the zero line now.
35:41
[SPEAKER_00]: when the has many in kingdom was reduced to client state status to the Roman Republic.
35:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
35:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So it had to been written way prior to that.
35:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
35:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So there was a big gap in time between when this happened versus when it was written, which is why we have a lot of.
36:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So sometime between 160 and 60 BCE.
36:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's like a hundred
36:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Because one 60 is when you put it closer to the six to the 60.
36:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So if second macabees was intended as a quote unquote, that's the whole book, meaning, you know, to read at festivals and stuff or to like,
36:27
[SPEAKER_00]: encourage the people to rally them, you know, to be used as reading material during Nick and Wednesday or Hanukkah, the establishment of the festival itself may have been just a logical stopping point of the text because that is literally where it stops.
36:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
36:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So that may have been its intended purpose.
36:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
36:47
[SPEAKER_01]: That makes sense.
36:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So getting back to the, I'm sorry, you're apologizing for what you wrote and people might not like it.
36:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Hold on, hold on, hold on.
36:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So John Calvin, right?
37:00
[SPEAKER_00]: He was a French theologian pastor and reformer in Geneva during the Protestant Reformation.
37:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, he was the principal figure in the development of the system of Christian theology, later called Calvinism.
37:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
37:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So Calvinism, including it's doctrines of predestination and of God's absolute sovereignty and the salvation of the human soul from death and eternal damnation, like Calvinism is like hardcore Protestant, right, like to the max.
37:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
37:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
37:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So he used the epilogue to argue in favor of the decannon's colonization, like he did not want this to be canon.
37:46
[SPEAKER_02]: God, okay, he wanted to get the shit out of my mind.
37:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
37:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
37:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
37:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
37:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
37:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
37:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
37:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
37:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
37:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
38:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
38:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
38:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
38:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
38:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
38:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
38:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
38:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
38:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
38:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my mind.
38:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the shit out of my
38:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
38:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I added the F bomb, but I think if this the tone of what he's saying, right, he's like, if you are apologizing for what you're writing, like, hmm, hope you like that, but if not, sorry.
38:21
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just not strong enough.
38:24
[SPEAKER_01]: He's, yeah, you know, you got no place.
38:25
[SPEAKER_00]: see, whereas I could make an argument for, I hope you like it.
38:30
[SPEAKER_00]: If you didn't sorry, it wasn't me.
38:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't do it.
38:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just telling you what God said.
38:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it could go either way.
38:37
[SPEAKER_00]: But Calvin was like, nah, not dog.
38:40
[SPEAKER_00]: If God wrote it as perfect and great, it doesn't matter if you like it or not.
38:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the fun part.
38:46
[SPEAKER_01]: He took that as proof for that.
38:47
[SPEAKER_00]: This was God's obviously man-made.
38:49
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't need this in our book.
38:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Get it out.
38:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So the epilogue makes, this is just a side note.
38:57
[SPEAKER_00]: This is just an interesting side note, okay?
38:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Like not pertinent to any of the stories here in or the chapters themselves.
39:05
[SPEAKER_00]: But,
39:06
[SPEAKER_00]: The epilogue makes an analogy to how water alone and wine alone are worse than drinking water mixed with wine.
39:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And the common practice in that era when wine was stored in a very potent form for efficient transit.
39:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So it would be like, what's it called concentrated?
39:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So they had concentrated wine, right?
39:31
[SPEAKER_00]: That you would have to water down to make it drinkable.
39:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
39:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
39:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So water by itself, who grows this concentrated wine?
39:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Who grows, right?
39:41
[SPEAKER_00]: But you mix them together.
39:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
39:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they're perfect.
39:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right?
39:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
39:46
[SPEAKER_00]: The only question was,
39:49
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you comparing this to?
39:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Like are you saying that yours is the water down version of a more perfect like the wine right like and what the wine the question is um you know how there was that Jason guy who wrote that book and i always kept saying ha Jason and the organauts and you were like who's that and then i had to explain fucking Greek drama to you Jason and the organauts but it's not even relevant because that's not the Jason and
40:16
[SPEAKER_00]: question, but there was some Jason that wrote history.
40:20
[SPEAKER_00]: That guy, that Jason, remember?
40:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
40:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
40:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So that Jason had this history.
40:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's a question about whether his version would have been the wine because it was more complete.
40:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And then so would second Macadoodles be like the water, the water down version?
40:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to admit, you kind of lost me there.
40:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so Jason is organ out some water and wine and I'm like I have no idea what you just said.
40:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me start over.
40:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me start over.
40:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's his story and guy name Jason.
40:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
40:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
40:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
40:58
[SPEAKER_00]: He wrote a bunch of histories.
41:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
41:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
41:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Just forget everything else I said about him.
41:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
41:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I've talked about him before.
41:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
41:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember me talking about him before Jason the story and possibly so no.
41:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
41:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, starting over from scratch, there's this historian guy named Jason.
41:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
41:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
41:15
[SPEAKER_00]: That apparently you've never heard of it.
41:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Even though I've mentioned him more than once.
41:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so there's this historian guy named Jason and he wrote a history of all this shit.
41:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
41:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And apparently his was really great.
41:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Right his history was great.
41:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It was awesome.
41:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And so then this guy that wrote the epilogue of mac and second macabees.
41:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
41:39
[SPEAKER_00]: He's saying.
41:42
[SPEAKER_00]: wine alone, yucky, water alone, yucky, but water and wine together is great.
41:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yay.
41:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So then the question would be, are you referring to your thing as the water and Jason as the wine?
41:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
42:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you follow that?
42:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You look really cute.
42:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose.
42:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
42:05
[SPEAKER_01]: We're good though.
42:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
42:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I can't bring it down any further.
42:09
[SPEAKER_01]: No, you're fine.
42:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just, I just, there's only three verses where he's like saying this thing about the water and the wine.
42:16
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
42:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, there was a Greek cultural belief that only Dionysus himself could drink unmixed wine without going crazy.
42:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you had to water it down.
42:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
42:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh.
42:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So this maybe would be the water down version.
42:32
[SPEAKER_00]: of something better.
42:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Question mark and could that be Jason's version?
42:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Question mark?
42:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Who knows?
42:39
[SPEAKER_00]: What exactly the water and wine correspond to is less clear and even more so for you?
42:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's it.
42:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
42:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
42:50
[SPEAKER_00]: That's chapters 11 through 15 of second macabees and what we have here for overall themes in these five chapters is military victories intertwined with religious devotion.
43:05
[SPEAKER_00]: leadership transition from Judas to Simon, which we didn't really hear much about in these chapters.
43:11
[SPEAKER_00]: We heard more about that in the military history and first macabees, I think, right?
43:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
43:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And then divine justice and prayers for the dead, which was really unique to second macabees, which we already talked about, but still very interesting to point out again.
43:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we've got martyrdom and faithfulness as central motifs in these chapters.
43:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
43:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
43:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And then that's it.
43:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So now we're done with those five chapters.
43:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And next time we will get into all the macadudos and the you're always wrong.
43:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I am not.
43:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I am not.
43:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I am you are always wrong.
43:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You are.
43:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's not even a question.
43:58
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
43:58
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
43:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that was our Q&A for today.
44:01
[SPEAKER_01]: For chapters of fellow 11 through 15 of Second Macbees and next time we'll be back with
44:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm always wrong, okay, perfect.
44:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we will see you next time.
44:17
[SPEAKER_01]: You still look so confused.
44:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I am.
44:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I really am.
44:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's okay, it's recorded.
44:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So if I really want to, I can go back and listen to it over and over and over and over again.
44:27
[SPEAKER_00]: That is what I really want to.
44:28
[SPEAKER_00]: If you really want to, I don't think you want to, though.
44:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think you want to, though.
44:34
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, thanks everybody.
44:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.