Latest / Church Staff Book Club / Stop Fearing Rejection... Become Unstoppable
Transcript
- Jonathan Malm: This is not your window of opportunity. It gets much bigger than this. Hey, welcome back to the Church Staff Book Club. My name is Jonathan Malm. And I'm Jason Young. And we are talking about our book. Not our book. The book that we're talking about is I wish it was our book. Yeah. Not a bad, not a bad gig to have a Maxwell book, but how to get a return on failure. ⁓ this is our third book of the podcast. We've first one we did is the comeback effect, one that Jason and I wrote. We did the emotionally healthy leader, which was a good one. And then this one is just continuing the good, but it's all it's all been all over the place. Like we have emotional health, we have ⁓ personal failure. Probably I feel like this one's more about like personal failure as a leader. We had our book, which is just hospitality. So that's our goal is that we can learn better when we learn together. ⁓ so we have leadership books, personal development books, ministry books. Our goal is that we just can be better rounded as Ministry leaders by reading together. So this book, we're in chapter three. ⁓ this is our third episode of this one. This one is get over failure by getting over yourself. ⁓ Jason, what what what what's this chapter about? Yeah, this one's all about our ego. I know nobody has a problem with that. But I don't know if anybody has found this to be true. But sometimes the hardest thing to recover from after a failure. Is the story that we tell ourselves about it. And a lot of that is really rooted in our ego. And that's where this chapter unpo ⁓ unpacks. Or or or the story we think others are telling about ourselves, I think. Yeah. That which is a whole nother perspective. ⁓ so yeah, I mean, ⁓ but this chapter really unpacks that that whole idea of a failure can actually get exacerbated. ⁓ or more damaging when pride, insecurity, defensiveness, overexplaining, when those things take over, like it can actually make the failure worse than it really is. Yeah. Yeah. So so John gives us seven big ideas on getting over this ego part of failure. I really loved last one because I think so the last one is basically think about the big picture. Yeah. And that one's been huge for me. I don't know. I mean, you probably have never had a bad experience speaking. When I when I first started speaking, I hate I hate I still kind of hate speaking, honestly. Like I I that's why we write books together, Jason, is that like you get to do the majority of the speaking. I get to do the writing and some of the like I I get to do the stuff that I love, you get to do the stuff you love, and maybe you're good at, but still people ask me to speak and and A while ago, I had to change my perspective on speaking. I was I would always get off stage and I was like, ⁓ I just hate, I hate how they went. I felt so nervous. And a while ago, I made this change and it's it's made a huge difference. Is before I go on stage, I pray, God, let them get something from this instead of like it's been it's it's a subtle tweak, but it's been about like, how can I give them something instead of how can I make sure they think I'm cool or they think I'm so smart or so knowledgeable? And that That subtle change has made a a big difference in the way that I speak. ⁓ but it it it's really talking about what John says here is is think about the big picture. So the big picture is, you know, did I say something stupid or did I, you know, I I did I didn't get that one point that I really wanted to get across, but like did they get something from it? Did ⁓ and that that I mean, this was this was a big point of the chapter was really just start thinking about other people instead of thinking about yourself whenever it comes to failure. Yeah. I So let's go back to your first comment. I have for sure had speaking opportunities, ⁓ large and small that Even before I took the stage, I was already in my head preparing for the possibility of failure. ⁓ So there, so there was already a story that was happening. And sometimes this, well, what will people think about me? Yeah. Well, well, they, you know, won't hire me back or whatever. And then sometimes, I mean, I hate to admit this, but even sometimes in the middle of a talk. I'm having these thoughts related to this. But you know what I noticed? And even on the backside too, but they're always about me. Yeah. Even though I might sometimes filter them through, ⁓ it's for the people. Yeah. They're getting nothing from this, but it's still about me failing as a speaker, not about them not getting what they need. Yeah. And I agree with you on the bigger picture because I think when we understand the weight of whatever it is, the best way to do that is to understand the bigger picture and and know where impact is. I also love on page 42, stop worrying about what others think about you. And let me read this quote. When you're 20, you care about what everyone thinks. When you're 40, you stop caring what everyone thinks. When you're 60, you realize no one was ever thinking about you in the first place. And so while many of us may not say or admit that we care what people th say or think about us, there there's probably an aspect that it it does matter and one way to work through it. is I think is to see the bigger picture and appreciate the positive aspects or impact or, you know, understand like, ⁓ that helped so and so. Like you just said, your prayer is that it would help someone. And, you know, when three or four people say, Jonathan, man, that really helped me, if we're not careful, there's another part of our story that says, Yeah, but you didn't say this and that was the gold. Or you did this and dude, you know, you totally. So I think Part of this chapter what's helpful is Ego can sink the ship. And so I think being careful of of that is is really, really important. And I love how he guides us like how do we get over ourselves? Which I would suspect all of us want to do, especially in the ministry world. We're like, ⁓ yeah, it's kind of a part of it. Yeah. But like, how do we do that? And I love how John kind of gives us some examples of what that looks like practically in our world. So Yeah, ca because that's the idea. This this whole book is how do you get a return on failure? It's how do you how do you make it worth something? How do you make it have value? And the premise of this chapter is that it can't have value whenever it gets tied up in our ego. Yeah. When it that that's when the failure becomes an identity instead of a learning opportunity or a launching point. And I mean to to to your point, this, you know, this this section of the chapter is stop worrying about what others think about you. I love this. He gave us these five filtering questions on how do you kind of get over what you think, what people are thinking about you. Is the question is do they care about me? Do they want what's best for me? Do they understand me? Do they want to help me or control me? Are they mature or self-centered? I think about, you know, some of the things that I post online, ⁓ people will be really upset about it. Like, this was not good. You know, they'll say that. And I've had to learn. More often it's because they wish I would have posted something that aligns with what their agenda was, right? That would that's so it's so it goes to that. Do they want to help me or control me? It wasn't like this was not good, you could have done better. This was this did not fulfill my purposes that I feel like should be happening online, right? And I think that I mean it goes to speaking too, right? Like you'll have someone criticize a sermon because you didn't say the thing that they thought you should have said. They wanted to be the speaker. They want to they want you to be their puppet on stage, right? Instead of do they actually care about you? Do they want to help you get better or are they really just trying to get you to say what they want to say? and so I think that helps a lot is realizing, I mean, honestly, realizing a lot of people don't don't really care about you. This I'm gonna be I I might feel s I might be really cynical in this in this podcast episode. Because another thing I think is that ⁓ I I've As I've gotten older, I'm 41 now, I still do care what people think a lot. But I've realized that, I mean, here's my here's my cynical perspective on the world is that, and maybe I've said this in another episode, but 50% of people are below average. So there's a whole I mean below average, meaning just statistically, 50% of people below average, right? Like there's there's an average, and 50% are below that, right? So you have largely the most vocal people are in that below average group and they're the ones who are most vocal about what went wrong or what they think should have happened differently. And I'm like, man, should I be listening to below average people? That's a really arrogant sounding statement, but I think it's valid. I I think, especially in the ministry world, typically if you're chosen for ministry, if you're on Sapphota church, if you are a pastor or second tier, third tier, whatever you are, It's probably because you are above average. It is really hard to get hired at a church, I would say. ⁓ it well, it's really hard to do well at a church. It's really hard to lead volunteers. It's really hard to you know, to to to seek God and and try to listen to him and and give give that message to people. It's really hard. And so I would say you're in the above average category already. And so maybe I don't know. This is very cynical. What do you think? Talk me down here, Jason. Fuck you down. I mean, we all use different tactics. ⁓ it it strategies. It sounds so arrogant, but it's just it helps me. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, but it also like I know you. Uh-huh. And so like I f when I hear you, I filter things based on like how what I know about you. Right. So if somebody listens, they could like, dude, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna email Jonathan and Well, let me just say, like, I've known Jonathan for a long time. And so like I I do, I do get what you're saying. What what's interesting is this. Again, everybody listening, everybody watching, Jonathan, you know this, we all know this. We we want to become better leaders, but the tension arises when the things that we need to do to become a better leader we don't like. ⁓ For example, get over ourselves. You say, well, yeah, I want to do that. When I read the Bible, I see what happens when pride takes over. Whew, not a good result, right? And and yet it's like what Paul said in Romans the things that I want to do, I don't ⁓ you know, I should do, I don't do, and vice versa, right? There's this, there's this tension. I think the starting point is that when we make the decision to grow as a leader, it begins where defensiveness ends. Because see, In failure, what the temptation is as a leader, we get embarrassed and so we blame. We get embarrassed and so we hide. We get embarrassed and we ⁓ but because one of the things, and John talks about this, and this is so true. When we fail at something, we automatically say, Well, I'm a failure, versus like, I failed with that Excel. Project, which I always do because it's Excel. And as soon as I hear the word spreadsheet, I'm like, you know, I go to sleep. And so I could just ⁓ tell I in fact I had to confess to somebody just this morning in a meeting, they said, Well, you know, for those of you, this is perfect, for those of you that put your stuff down into an Excel spreadsheet and I just put in the chat, that does not include me. And in fact, I have not done that ever. Right. And so I'm like, I am sorry. So it's a little bit of an L O L but it's also this like I'm like, ⁓ dude, like, you know, failing at that. So when we think about Growing as leaders. It's like, all right, what would defensiveness taking a stop, hit and stop sign look like? Would it be instead of blaming, you know, I I hold up a mirror and I ask the harder questions, right? Because I'm human. When, you know, because that's humility and self-awareness. I mean, here's the reality: when we evaluate a failure, it actually allows us to accelerate our growth because we become more self aware. And self awareness is the hinge on which the door swings. Yeah. Right. And you find this in emotional intelligence. i if you if you study that at all. And the other thing is that just because you have failed, it doesn't mean you're a failure. So there's this identity thing that, you know, we feel. But one thing I love that John talks about is become comfortable with rejection. I I wrote I wrote in my notes, no, in little parentheses. Cause I hate rejection. Yeah. Yeah, because who gets up in the morning and goes, Man, if I could just experience rejection. Mm and become come like that that's not the that's not the the norm. And so because Jonathan and I but ⁓ we've talked about I don't know if we've talked about it in the episode or or just off air, rejection is is really one of the worst types of pain that we could feel because nobody wants to feel rejected. I mean, think back to a moment that you felt rejected from a leader because maybe you said or did something or you didn't say something or didn't do something and it felt and it was like a wound, or maybe growing up as a child, there was an aspect of rejection, or in a marriage, or with children. Like rejection is really, really painful. And so thinking about being comfortable with it, you're like, ⁓ I don't know if that's really what I want to do. He he made a he put a quote in this part. The sooner you stop fearing rejection, the sooner you can become unstoppable. And so Here is my encouragement to you. Also a challenge for Jason Young here. If I will step into the uncomfortableness of rejection, I can begin to build the resilience that allows me not to love it, but to become more comfortable with it. But I can't become more comfortable with it until I sit in it. Right. And so it's this invitation. To sit in these moments, because let me say last thing I'll say ⁓ and then stop. Sometimes we avoid hard emotions because we're afraid they're gonna last longer than they will. The reality is on average, emotions are gonna last 90 seconds. And if you can sit in it and train yourself, ooh, I sat in it. I felt it. That was hard. Remember, if you can name it, you can tame it, right? I feel Disappointed, frustrated, excited, whatever it is. And emotions have gradients, right? There's not all like the the top seven. There's gradients of emotions. If I could sit in it for 90 seconds, guess what? You did it. Yeah. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again. And that's where the comfort level becomes. I I don't love it, but I can at least become comfortable with it. Yeah. And I I would say that probably ninety percent. You gave ninety seconds, I'll say ninety percent. Because I make up statistics. You actually have statistics. But I say, I would say 90% of rejections that I experience in life are not because someone is rejecting me. It's not even necessarily because someone is rejecting what I am proposing or what I'm offering or whatever. You know, whenever we, whenever we whenever we write a book, right, ⁓ we submit a book proposal to the publisher. And what they do, one of the things they do, which is interesting, is they, you know, they're not evaluating this book by itself. They're evaluating their summer catalog or their fall catalog. And so if they have a book about volunteers at the time that we're pit pitching the book about volunteers to them, they say, we can't have two books about volunteers. They're going to compete with each other. So, you know, we maybe already committed to this one book about volunteers. So we have to say no to Jason and Jonathan. ⁓ or, you know, we, you know, we just published one. And so there's there's this reality of, you know, there constantly I have Designers reaching out to me to work for Sunday Social. And I'm like, I just don't have capacity. Sometimes a phenomenal designer will send me their portfolio and I say, we just, we have more vol more, more designers than we can use, right? So the the rejection that I give them is not like, no, you're bad or no, I wouldn't work with you. It's just, this is just the reality of the situation. It's not a rejection of you. It's not a rejection rejection of your offer. It is a this does not fit at this moment. And I think that's one of the things that, you know, you have to get over is the idea that like, Rejection is not rejection. Rejection is just not right now, ⁓ or or this is not the right moment. And sometimes it's just a numbers game at that point then. So then you, you know, you we pitch a book to 20 different publishers, and one publisher says, We were hoping for a book about volunteers at this time, and there's no book. We didn't have one in our catalog. This would be fantastic, right? Like it's just finding that timing. I feel like timing plays such a big part of this. And so often we deem something as failure when it was just bad timing. Yeah, that's a that's a great point. L let me ask you a question because I I don't know if this is true. So instead of a com instead of a comment, let me ask you let me ask you question. Uh-huh. Well when we think about, you know, I and I love that. You maybe it's not rejection, maybe it is timing, right? So in these moments of, you know, something failing. I'd find ⁓ leaders could take themselves too seriously. Why why is it important for leaders not to take themselves too seriously, especially in the context of the conversation we're talking about? I mean, this probably goes into the ⁓ bigger picture thing. ⁓ or maybe become too big to let things bother you, which is another But the idea that the idea that If I'm worried about myself, I can only lead myself. ⁓ It's a it's kind of like ⁓ you know, the principle of focus. I can either focus on my thumb or I can focus on the screen behind me, right? If I'm focusing on my thumb, I don't ⁓ yeah, there's some peripheral vision, there's some blurry, I can see kind of what's going on, but I'm not able to see the big picture. And so often when we focus on ourselves, this small nearsighted. We don't see the people that we're leading and we lead ineffectually. We ⁓ we blame people because again, all we're looking at is this instead of seeing like, ⁓ there are people hurting right now, or there are people doing their best, or there are people who, you know, are busy with with work and life and they're volunteering for us. You know, we we so focus on what we're providing instead of focusing on the people that we're leading. I I so I would say you can't be a leader and focus on yourself. So let me ask you this ⁓ because this is something I find that you do. ⁓ pretty well and that I struggle with and I don't do well. And it's around humor and mistakes. Uh-huh. And so I'll take things too seriously and like you're better at it's not that you don't, but you you just have a a better approach to it. So is there a way for a leader to use humor to help them recover from mistake or to use it as a tool to navigate a mistake or a failure? Again, I know these words kind of like we use them interchangeably, but I I find you using humor well. So how do you do that and how can that be helpful? I mean, you're probably pointing out a personality flaw as a feature. Like that's one of those like you know, in the Enneagram seven we reject negative emotions, right? So if I can spin it as a positive, that that that scratches my back a little better than sitting in that negative emotion. But I do think I do think that humor disarms people. I think there's a humility. ⁓ there's a humility in humor, true humor, you know really really good stand-up comedians, for instance, make themselves look bad ⁓ with the jokes that they say. You know, because they say the the horrible thing that no one else was willing to say out loud. They say it, right? ⁓ but they're so so in doing that, you disarm people and they're more willing to go along for the ride, I would say. So yeah, I I think I feign I mean th this is my dad, like, you know, he would come home from a busy day at work and I would try to tell him things. And he would make a joke nonstop, like just joke after joke after joke. And I would have to say, Dad, you had a stressful day today, didn't you? Because his his like his defense mechanism was humor whenever he was stressed, right? And so I learned that. I learned that like humor is but I also have to be because I noticed that in him, I try to be very intentional. Whenever I'm just trying to make a joke about everything, I have to say, Okay, I'm probably in a very stressed state state right now. And I should probably be a little bit more like, okay, calm down, listen. Don't try to turn this into a joke. ⁓ but yeah, so I mean, you you definitely pointed out a personality flaw as a feature, but I I think that's a reality though. I think all of our flaws do have like it's it's not it's not one or the other. There's two sides of the coin. There's the the there's the bad side and the good side. And I think we have to learn to embrace the good side and then maybe make allowances for the bad side. Yeah, I was leading ⁓ a session to your point about humor and what it How people use it and what it reveals. I was leading a session for some executive recently, ⁓ leadership dev session, and there was a guy on the team that he, you wouldn't expect him to be funny, but he is. So in this session, it was very interesting because he discovered something about himself related to humor that he often uses humor to ⁓ not that it's not genuine, but sometimes to hide behind. ⁓ a bigger emotion. Or to c I don't mean cover up in a negative way, like hiding something, but kinda sorta. And so it's interesting. Escapism, if you want, like escape negative emotion. Yeah, it it it could be. And so it was super interesting that he's kind of like saying this out loud as he's learning. And this is like a guy like it's almost 60, right? And this was like a re revelatory for him. Then fast forward to the end of our session together. Again, these are all executives. And they would take it like, hey, what's something that really stood out to you? And it was amazing. Like three people in the room clued in on what this guy said earlier in the session. They said, We never, as many years as it we've worked with you, we we never thought that about you were funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was we actually thought you were funny, but you aren't. Yeah, somebody said that. And but it was a real it was a real conversation of like how humor can show up. And the reality is. We we can learn to laugh at ourselves. We can let me say this a more serious statement. I bet somebody listening, watching right now, you're exhausted, not because of your task list, not even because of the people that you lead, but you spend so much time protecting the image that you want people to think exists. Yeah. To that exist. And that's not a criticism on you because guess what? I I I often do do the same. And we actually find that to be fairly common in the church world. In fact, I find it more common on ministry church staff than when I work in the corporate culture. Probably again, because the last week what we were talking about, the the fact that we don't have clear markers of success. Yeah. clear marker of success in the business world is I made money, I hit my goals, I whatever. In ministry, there's no, there's no clarity. I mean, there's some clarity. Some churches will have clarity, like we need 500 people in the pews or whatever, right? Like, but like there's not a clear, did I succeed? And so then the only thing that we can decide whether or not we succeeded on is do I feel good about myself in ministry? Do I feel like I did a I did a good job? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, if you want to grow faster, then we have to like stop pretending. To be perfect. And I'm speaking I'm speaking to myself and a tool, a way, is man using laughter. What's interesting, you you talked about the relatability of, you know, how humor is a relatable ⁓ quality, if you will, or ⁓ the way it it works. Yeah. The ability to laugh at yourself actually is a sign of security. But many leaders go to blame and that actually reveals insecurity. Yeah. And so it's like, all right, well, as a leader, do you wanna come across as secure or insecure? And how you show up is gonna inform people which of those you, you know, you're you're trying to do. But the the the chapter is really, really good. To be personal and like, yeah, this is a this is a thing because failure, it's already hard enough. Ego makes it harder. And it's like, well, I don't want to do the ego thing. And I think spending a little bit of time in this chapter and finding something that resonates with you, like Jonathan talked about the big picture. Man, what a it's kind of like looking at the same thing from a different perspective, right? Yeah, ⁓ if I could just do that. All right, well, what do I need to do to do that? And I think this chapter is super practical. ⁓ on on how it helps you to, you know, to achieve some of those things that you're trying to do, which is reduce ego, get over failure faster, get from it what you can, and keep moving. And and I would say, so another another section of this chapter is the idea of focusing on progress over perfection. ⁓ yeah. I think one of the traps I fell into in my twenties, and I'm probably still falling into now, is the idea that This is my opportunity. And I don't have space for progress because if I don't do it now, it won't happen. Yes, that's good. And and I I yeah, I was in this parenting seminar seminar and someone said something like, you know, the majority of people make their most money in their 50s and 60s. ⁓ which I I question that. I'm maybe it's true. I don't know. I didn't look up that stat, but it struck me that, you know, what he was trying to say was the idea that like we As parents, we're so worried about working, we gotta make the buck. We might gotta make the buck because this is our shot, realizing that this isn't your shot. This is still preparation for 50s and 60s. And I think our culture so values youth that we assume we are on the shelf in our 40s or 50s or 60s, right? ⁓ the majority of the big things people do in their career is in their 40s, right? Like There the the reality is later on in life is where you make those big moves. And I would say even even more than that, 50s and 60s, you you have this huge opportunity if you grow properly, right? So I think some of some of the thing that I have to focus on in the idea of progress over perfection is that like I still have time. And me, me learning to grow during this failure is actually going to benefit me in those peak times of my life where I I can make money or make an impact. It doesn't need to happen right now. And I think that's been huge. and I think that that's probably what I something I would recommend to any twenty, thirty year old is the idea that like this is not it. Like this is not your this is not your window of opportunity. It g it's much bigger than this. And I think that's a hard thing for us to to wrap our minds around. So to compliment what you're saying. If everything in front of you you feel like is the only thing that man I you know, that it it's life and death, right? It really becomes this overwhelming thing. And that's when kind of the failure aspect of story begins to take over because it's a thing. Yeah. Right. It's not the only thing. In fact, recently, ⁓ I designed ⁓ a learning experience for ⁓ interns, for 70 interns, and I felt really good about it. And I th I know maybe listening, watching, you're gonna laugh. You're like, ⁓ Jason, you're still immature. still growing. I felt really good about it and I sent it and I thought there's like this is good enough. Like it's good. Uh-huh. And the response back like seven or ten days later, and I was like, Well, it's taking so long. What are they thinking? Response was, hey, overall it was great. Wanna make some make some tweaks. And and when I first saw that, I'm like, ⁓ yeah, a piece of cake. And then but there was another part of me that was like thinking, ⁓ but they didn't think it was perfect. Yeah. So what are they thinking about me? Right. And so this is this idea of falling into a trap that That is just really kind of crazy. In fact, I in the section you just mentioned, I love I love what he says. ⁓ On the progress side, we have to take risks. Right. And if we see things as the only thing, we might not be inclined to take a risk because it's like it's too much. It's the gamble's too big versus this is not the only thing. It's one of the things. But it's like we learn things faster than people who don't take risks. Yeah. Right. We have a broader and more mature range of experiences than those who don't take risks. We bump in obstacles sooner than people who don't take risks. We learn to overcome those obstacles that others don't. So To Jonathan's point, in the in the journey of progress is where we can take those risks and we can learn from those risks, risks, and we can apply the next time what we've learned from them after we reflect. Because we're going to fail. The question is, how will we use that failure and not allow our ego to get so tied up in it that it actually makes the situation worse? Whereas using it and moving forward. Is a way better approach when it comes to failure and leadership. Yeah, that's good. Well, hey, this was our episode today. We will see you next week. Again, if you want to grab the book, it's How to Get a Return on Failure by John Maxwell. It's been a good read so far. But if you don't read, we'll hopefully be able to summarize it well enough that you can follow along. But again, subscribe. We'll see you next week.