Latest / The Steve Harvey Morning Show / Interview of the Week: The Today Show's Craig Melvin talks about his new book “Pops: Learning to Be a Son and a Father”

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Interview of the Week: The Today Show's Craig Melvin talks about his new book “Pops: Learning to Be a Son and a Father” · The Steve Harvey Morning Show

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Speaker 1: by the Ad Council. I'm Tanya sam Post of the
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Speaker 1: Money Moves Podcast powered by Greenwood. This daily podcast will
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Speaker 1: powered by Greenland on the I Heart Radio app or
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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, and make sure you leave
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Speaker 1: a review. My next guest is a Craig Melvin. He's
1:17
Speaker 1: the co host of The Today Show and the author
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Speaker 1: of the book Pops Learning to Be a Son and
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Speaker 1: the Father. You may know Crigts and the war winning
1:25
Speaker 1: news anchor. As I said earlier on the Today's Show.
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Speaker 1: You also have seen him on MSNBC Live and the
1:30
Speaker 1: host of Dateline. He's on the show discussed his book,
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Speaker 1: Pops Learning to Be a Son and the Father. It's
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Speaker 1: the story of all the father figures in Craig's life,
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Speaker 1: and that includes inspiring men from his program or his
1:40
Speaker 1: series called Dad's Got This series on NBC NBC News Today.
1:46
Speaker 1: These experiences and encounters have shaped crests understanding of his
1:49
Speaker 1: own role as a dad, and I'm sure I can
1:50
Speaker 1: be related. We'll have a nice conversation since Father's Day
1:53
Speaker 1: has recently passed. He has two young children. Please welcome
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Speaker 1: the money making conversation. My man, Craig Melvin, how you
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Speaker 1: don't create Sean? I'm well I'm well, thank you so
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Speaker 1: much for having me. I always enjoy your conversation, so
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Speaker 1: I don't have to be a part of one. Thank you. Man.
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Speaker 1: A Southern boy, South Carolina, Okay, you know, uh, you
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Speaker 1: know when I when I see people on TV and
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Speaker 1: you saw articulate, there's no yalls, there's no access. How
2:20
Speaker 1: does a man come straight out of Columbia? I know
2:23
Speaker 1: color because Steve Harvey. I used to go down a
2:24
Speaker 1: lot of performative town center selling that place out all
2:27
Speaker 1: the time. So I'm fair for me with South Carolina, Charleston,
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Speaker 1: that whole low country. There's no low country in your tone?
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Speaker 1: What's going on there? You are? You break that low
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Speaker 1: country accent? Low country accent? Funny because I did. I
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Speaker 1: never I never had it. My mom, Uh, you'll appreciate this.
2:45
Speaker 1: Growing up in Houston, Uh, the way that you grew up.
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Speaker 1: My mom grew up in the projects and first in
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Speaker 1: the family to go to college and first in the
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Speaker 1: family to get a graduate degree. So when we came along,
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Speaker 1: she wanted to expose us to two things and places
3:02
Speaker 1: that she had not been exposed to. And consequently, I
3:07
Speaker 1: think it's that was probably fourteen or fifteen and she
3:10
Speaker 1: had us take part in these oratorical contests. Um and
3:15
Speaker 1: and that was was kind of how it started. So
3:18
Speaker 1: I took some public speaking classes and then these oratorical contests,
3:24
Speaker 1: and then the next thing you knew, I had what
3:26
Speaker 1: they what they like to call in the business a
3:29
Speaker 1: nondescript dialect. You can't really tell based on listening to
3:34
Speaker 1: me where I'm from. It's a blessing. Now. When I
3:38
Speaker 1: was growing up, it was always he's he's talking white. Absolutely,
3:42
Speaker 1: he talks like he talks like a white boy. So
3:45
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's it was the curse. Now it's
3:48
Speaker 1: a blessing. Well, you know, it's interesting because I knew
3:51
Speaker 1: in my middle school. I remember my teacher used to
3:53
Speaker 1: always ask me to read, just always ask me to read.
3:56
Speaker 1: And you know, people talk about bullying, and you know,
3:58
Speaker 1: when you people are talking about they call you snowflake.
4:01
Speaker 1: That was amal bully. And then so it's it's popularized
4:04
Speaker 1: now because people are willing to talk about it. But
4:06
Speaker 1: we all grew up in some form of physical or
4:08
Speaker 1: mental abuse from high school kids or people in the neighborhood.
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Speaker 1: And my remember this, this this girl, she made such
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Speaker 1: a big deal that I was always asked to read that.
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Speaker 1: It almost, I have to say, traumatized me because I
4:22
Speaker 1: went exactly the opposite. I wanted to talk, I wanted
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Speaker 1: to say, ain't I wanted to have I wanted to
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Speaker 1: slur my word. I wanted to fit in. And so
4:29
Speaker 1: what you I bring that story up because you talked
4:32
Speaker 1: about because you was hit with it. You was hit,
4:34
Speaker 1: you know, talking why I didn't want to act? Why
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Speaker 1: you you're calling you snowflake? What kept you focused? What
4:40
Speaker 1: kept you from from veering off like I veered off?
4:43
Speaker 1: I veered off and I said, hey, man, I want
4:44
Speaker 1: to fit in and not be me. You know, I
4:47
Speaker 1: think it was I wroted about in the book. My mother.
4:50
Speaker 1: My mother really sean. I mean she um she she
4:54
Speaker 1: kept us on the straight and narrow at the time. Uh.
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Speaker 1: We we resented the strictness. I mean my mom, she
5:02
Speaker 1: knew all of our friends, and she all of her parents.
5:06
Speaker 1: We weren't allowed to stay out past you know, during
5:09
Speaker 1: the week maybe nine o'clock, maybe on the weekends when
5:13
Speaker 1: kids were going to parties and having fun. I was
5:16
Speaker 1: doing oratorical contests and activities, and I went to in
5:21
Speaker 1: high school. I think I probably went to maybe three
5:24
Speaker 1: high school football games on Friday night. I just I didn't.
5:27
Speaker 1: I grew up with a very tight leash, right uh.
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Speaker 1: And And part of it was my mother overcompensating for
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Speaker 1: for my father not being the kind of dad that
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Speaker 1: he should have been. But part of it was mom knew.
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Speaker 1: She knew back then, I think kind of what it took.
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Speaker 1: She was a school teacher, then she went into an administration.
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Speaker 1: She knew what it took um to to shape and
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Speaker 1: mold young black boys, especially right, And and that was it.
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Speaker 1: Had it not been for her, had I grown up
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Speaker 1: in another house, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Well,
5:58
Speaker 1: you know, I write you a book, you know the
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Speaker 1: book we're talking for talking to interviewing Craig Melvin, his
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Speaker 1: book Pops, Learning to Be a Son and the Father.
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Speaker 1: Is it because the fact that your father wasn't there,
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Speaker 1: that she may be overcompensated and wanted to make sure
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Speaker 1: you didn't you had a better life, or you pursue
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Speaker 1: the options even though I knew she went to college.
6:16
Speaker 1: And think in the age of twenty two is when
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Speaker 1: she became pregnant with you. Well, talk about that in
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Speaker 1: the middle because as we talked about trying to shape
6:24
Speaker 1: you because of the fact that you've been shaped by
6:27
Speaker 1: a lot of people, especially to the stories that were
6:29
Speaker 1: wanta talk about the the president incident when he was
6:31
Speaker 1: out of camp grades. How that really kind of like
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Speaker 1: started you in this direction of humanizing all men, especially
6:38
Speaker 1: men who are incoss already. Talk about your mom in
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Speaker 1: her role versus your dad role because you mentioned it
6:44
Speaker 1: just a little bit, but that sent ers around us
6:46
Speaker 1: getting into the story and your father changing his life
6:48
Speaker 1: at the age of sixt or seven. Mom, Yeah, Mom, Mom.
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Speaker 1: Mom had to play the role of mom and dad
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Speaker 1: for the better part of my challenge. Um, it was,
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Speaker 1: it was. It was a role that she was. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: she was unfortunately well prepared for it because she ended
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Speaker 1: up she had to take care of her three younger
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Speaker 1: siblings UM when she was in college and her father
7:11
Speaker 1: skipped out of the family. Ended up essentially dying on
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Speaker 1: the streets and squalord. But no a mom. Because my
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Speaker 1: father was not physically present as often as I would
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Speaker 1: have liked, and my younger brother would have liked my
7:27
Speaker 1: older brother as well. Mom stepped in the trip to
7:30
Speaker 1: fill the gap. She filled her She filled her boy
7:32
Speaker 1: and not just not just being present in a sense
7:34
Speaker 1: of sean a little league games or soccer games or
7:39
Speaker 1: or concerts, not just physically present, but but but emotionally
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Speaker 1: president right A spiritually present. I mean, the relationship that
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Speaker 1: I have with God is because of my mother's relationship
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Speaker 1: with God. So it was it was divine intervention. You know,
7:57
Speaker 1: had I had any other mother, things would not have
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Speaker 1: gone the way that they did. But you know, it's
8:05
Speaker 1: it's also and I write about in the book as
8:07
Speaker 1: you know, and I do appreciate the fact that you
8:09
Speaker 1: read the book. You'd be surprised. And how often to
8:11
Speaker 1: talk to people about books and they haven't read word one,
8:15
Speaker 1: But I can tell you read the whole thing. And
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Speaker 1: I read about in the book. My father, I asked
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Speaker 1: him doing the course of my my interviews with him
8:23
Speaker 1: for the book. I said, Pops, what was the most
8:25
Speaker 1: money you ever wasted? M Without missing a beat, he
8:29
Speaker 1: said it was about fifts back in nineteen six. I said,
8:33
Speaker 1: that was a lot of money back then, when you
8:34
Speaker 1: spend that money on he said, that's how much. That's
8:37
Speaker 1: how much it cost to put my daddy in the ground.
8:39
Speaker 1: And in that moment I realized, Um, that While I
8:44
Speaker 1: had been frustrated by the lack of relationship I had
8:47
Speaker 1: with my dad, it was exponentially better than the relationship
8:51
Speaker 1: he had with his own father. Right, he didn't know
8:53
Speaker 1: who his dad was until he was almost a teenager,
8:56
Speaker 1: So it was it was wholly on realistic of me
9:01
Speaker 1: to expect him to be the kind of dad that
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Speaker 1: I had come to to to idolize. He couldn't be
9:09
Speaker 1: it because he hadn't seen it, and you can't be
9:11
Speaker 1: something trust that. It's really hard to be something. Yes,
9:15
Speaker 1: if if you if you haven't seen it, if you
9:18
Speaker 1: haven't been exposed to it. So that's what my dad
9:20
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10:17
Speaker 1: here outside the Perez family home, just waiting for the
10:21
Speaker 1: and there they go, almost on time. This morning. Mom
10:24
Speaker 1: is coming out the front door strong with a double
10:26
Speaker 1: arm kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter
10:29
Speaker 1: is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag
10:32
Speaker 1: wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. Oh but mom
10:38
Speaker 1: has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler.
10:42
Speaker 1: And now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about
10:44
Speaker 1: nine or ten, has secured herself in the booster seat.
10:47
Speaker 1: Dad zips to bag closed and they're off. Ah, but
10:51
Speaker 1: looks like Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still
10:53
Speaker 1: on the roof of the car. And there it goes. Oh,
10:58
Speaker 1: that's a shame that mug was a am favorite. Don't
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Speaker 1: world for them. You look and see a tree. They
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11:28
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Speaker 1: and the AD Council. You know when I when I
11:48
Speaker 1: read the book, you know, um, you know I heard
11:50
Speaker 1: shotgun House. Okay, I grew up in there. I was
11:53
Speaker 1: born in the shotgun house. Two very shotgun house. People.
11:56
Speaker 1: If you listen to shotgun House, open to the front door,
11:58
Speaker 1: shoot the gun out, shotgun out. The go out the
12:00
Speaker 1: front back door. Don't hit anything that's a shotgun house. Okay,
12:05
Speaker 1: you referenced pig feats. Grew up with big feasts, but man,
12:07
Speaker 1: heyg I would touch But big feats were part of
12:14
Speaker 1: our lifestyle. And so that's the Southern not from Houston, Texas.
12:17
Speaker 1: I'm from the South. It was it was a lifestyle
12:20
Speaker 1: that was normal to me. But it was also a
12:21
Speaker 1: community lifestyle of people taking care of each other. And
12:25
Speaker 1: that was really important. Not only your dad. Even though
12:28
Speaker 1: there were some missteps, there were still people there to
12:31
Speaker 1: take care of him, you know, to make sure he
12:33
Speaker 1: was focused, to shout at him as he became an adult.
12:36
Speaker 1: There were people in the community. That's really important in
12:40
Speaker 1: this book that no matter what, there's some form of
12:43
Speaker 1: family tied to your story, and the people in your
12:46
Speaker 1: life talk about that. You know, it's a It's It's
12:50
Speaker 1: funny because long before people started talking about it taking
12:54
Speaker 1: a village, uh to to rear a child. I had
12:58
Speaker 1: a village. You know, it wasn't all that back back
13:01
Speaker 1: in the eighties in South Carolina, back in the eighties
13:03
Speaker 1: and nineties where I grew up. But I had a village,
13:06
Speaker 1: and and yes, there were a number of men who
13:10
Speaker 1: played the role of dad alone the way my uncle James,
13:13
Speaker 1: my uncle Jake, my uncle Frank, um. But there were
13:17
Speaker 1: also a lot of women that that that played the
13:20
Speaker 1: part as well. I was disciplined, and I think that's
13:23
Speaker 1: the politically correct term I was. I was disciplined by
13:28
Speaker 1: more women growing up than men, whether it's my mom
13:31
Speaker 1: or one of my aunts and my grandma. I spent
13:34
Speaker 1: a lot of time with my two grandmothers growing up,
13:37
Speaker 1: and they really shaped me in myriad ways that I
13:42
Speaker 1: didn't fully appreciate until I was older, right. Uh. But
13:45
Speaker 1: and then after that, I had coaches along the way.
13:48
Speaker 1: I always God always blessed me with with with people
13:52
Speaker 1: along the road, right Uh. That that gave me a
13:56
Speaker 1: little part of something that I was. I was able
13:59
Speaker 1: to take and build on. It's difficult for young black
14:03
Speaker 1: men especially, it's it's difficult to to learn how to
14:07
Speaker 1: carry yourself in this world, um with without examples of it.
14:13
Speaker 1: And I had lots of examples, thankfully along the way.
14:18
Speaker 1: But the reality is, you know, Sean, a lot of
14:20
Speaker 1: kids don't have that. A lot of kids don't they
14:23
Speaker 1: just you know, through no fault of their own mind.
14:26
Speaker 1: They they don't have a mother or a father, or
14:29
Speaker 1: an uncle or an aunt to take their hands on
14:34
Speaker 1: this journey of life, and so they end up finding
14:37
Speaker 1: role models uh that they should not be held up,
14:41
Speaker 1: but that should not be on a paddle still, and
14:43
Speaker 1: they begin to emulate them. You know, the thing I
14:47
Speaker 1: really like about your book is that sometimes uh, because
14:51
Speaker 1: my father was a truck driver, you know, so you
14:53
Speaker 1: know when he wasn't driving trucks, you know he was
14:56
Speaker 1: he was, he wasn't really connected to me. I could
14:59
Speaker 1: I could tell you he was my father. I can
15:02
Speaker 1: tell you that my mom was there for me. My
15:04
Speaker 1: mom pushed me. My mom always felt that could be
15:07
Speaker 1: somebody special in life. When your father showed up for
15:10
Speaker 1: your ball game, that that memory. You don't know if
15:12
Speaker 1: you got to hit a home running, gott struck out
15:15
Speaker 1: over time you went up the bat, but you remember
15:17
Speaker 1: that moment. And then when your mom rescued you, when
15:19
Speaker 1: you thought, uh, you had in an entered early fatherhood.
15:25
Speaker 1: You know, those are two moments that really I bring
15:29
Speaker 1: up those two moments prayer because despite of all the
15:31
Speaker 1: things we do in our life, there are always memories
15:34
Speaker 1: that really some haunt people, some inspired people, your father
15:39
Speaker 1: showing up for your game, and your mom basically coming
15:43
Speaker 1: to the rescue because she did something that enabled you
15:45
Speaker 1: to relax. Talk about those two key moments of parenting.
15:50
Speaker 1: Even though your father wasn't there, that was a key
15:52
Speaker 1: parenting moment that he provided for you that stays with
15:55
Speaker 1: you today. It probably cares into your parenty with your
15:58
Speaker 1: with your children today and your mom being there for
16:01
Speaker 1: you at a moment of doubt, frustration, fear. But both
16:05
Speaker 1: them were there at different times. I mean, you're you're
16:08
Speaker 1: you're talking about the partment book where I almost became
16:13
Speaker 1: a teenage father. I was almost a statistic at the
16:15
Speaker 1: age of fourteen. Uh No, that's I made a bad choice.
16:22
Speaker 1: I made a bad choice. And you know what, I
16:25
Speaker 1: write about it because I wrote about it because I
16:27
Speaker 1: wanted people to understand. Uh, there but for the grace
16:32
Speaker 1: of God go I and and and and I think
16:35
Speaker 1: a lot of folks can relate to this, this idea
16:37
Speaker 1: that you know, there's that night or sometimes that day,
16:40
Speaker 1: but usually it's it's that night where you went left,
16:44
Speaker 1: but you could have gone right right and and and
16:48
Speaker 1: had you made a different decision, it would have altered
16:52
Speaker 1: the course of your life in a dramatic way. Um,
16:55
Speaker 1: that almost happened to me. I got lucky and and
16:58
Speaker 1: and at that in my life, I was, I didn't
17:01
Speaker 1: have much of relationship with my father. I was I
17:05
Speaker 1: was afraid of my mother, Uh, definitely afraid, so I
17:09
Speaker 1: couldn't talk to her about it. And it was a
17:12
Speaker 1: situation where, you know, this young lady was convinced she
17:15
Speaker 1: was pregnant, and I like, I had to I had
17:18
Speaker 1: to do something. This was not one of the situations
17:21
Speaker 1: where in action was an option. And uh and I
17:25
Speaker 1: write in the book about how I went to my
17:26
Speaker 1: my aunt, and it was my aunt that finally convinced
17:29
Speaker 1: me that I had no choice but to talk to
17:31
Speaker 1: my mother. But my mom has always been long before
17:35
Speaker 1: we started calling people fixers, my mom was a fixer,
17:39
Speaker 1: like it was. It was that that obviously was an
17:42
Speaker 1: extreme example, but there were so many other times in
17:44
Speaker 1: my life where I thought I was out of option.
17:48
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was gonna do, and I
17:49
Speaker 1: prayed to God and put trust in Betty Joe Melvine
17:52
Speaker 1: and and Betty Joe Melvine always came through and still
17:55
Speaker 1: does now. Mind you, in a different way, my dad,
17:58
Speaker 1: you know, rude about that that part in the book
18:00
Speaker 1: sell where he showed up at my little league game,
18:04
Speaker 1: and the memory steed with me because it was so
18:07
Speaker 1: rare to that point my dad. Um. And and again
18:11
Speaker 1: now looking back on it, knowing what we know about addiction,
18:15
Speaker 1: about it being a disease and not a weakness, I
18:18
Speaker 1: understand why he wasn't there. I understand why he had
18:22
Speaker 1: walled himself off from our family and society at large.
18:25
Speaker 1: But back then I was a kid, you know, I
18:28
Speaker 1: was a kid in one of my my my dad
18:30
Speaker 1: to to be proud of me and see me, uh
18:33
Speaker 1: and certainly watch watch my little league games. And so
18:35
Speaker 1: when he showed up that evening, I saw him down
18:39
Speaker 1: the third base line there on the on the fence.
18:41
Speaker 1: It's a it's a memory that that stayed with me
18:42
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18:51
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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and
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Speaker 1: the AD Council. You know, um it was. The book
20:43
Speaker 1: is um an emotional book. And I would say emotional
20:46
Speaker 1: because I told people when I get a book like
20:48
Speaker 1: this after slow read it, because sometimes they hit points
20:51
Speaker 1: where I go, oh, I'm about to about to go there,
20:54
Speaker 1: I'm not. Let me finish this moment. And because I
20:57
Speaker 1: remember a moment with my dad, um nateen ain'ty too
21:00
Speaker 1: when I owned a comedy club and my dad had
21:03
Speaker 1: never ever been to anything that I've been and he
21:06
Speaker 1: just showed up at the comedy club and uh, it
21:09
Speaker 1: was sold out and looked at the lobberists. What you're doing,
21:12
Speaker 1: your dad? He goes, I come to see my son.
21:15
Speaker 1: And he looked around. He looked, wow, this you this
21:18
Speaker 1: you this you? And I went, uh, yes, sir, yes,
21:21
Speaker 1: sir you because I always said certainly my dad and
21:24
Speaker 1: uh and he said he said, he said, I'm proud
21:27
Speaker 1: of your son, and and and like I said, this
21:30
Speaker 1: is because that's what the book did to me as
21:33
Speaker 1: a dad. Because when you start talking about incarceration and
21:38
Speaker 1: you talked about remember you're talking, you just said earlier,
21:40
Speaker 1: right turn, left, turn those turns. I always say that.
21:43
Speaker 1: When I was in college, you know, you you played
21:45
Speaker 1: a fraternity. I played to make a side five, and
21:48
Speaker 1: you always do stupid things. I remember the Big Brothers said,
21:50
Speaker 1: we want some plants. Well, we didn't have no money,
21:53
Speaker 1: and so I remember just this giant open field where
21:56
Speaker 1: they had plants back in the day, and rember Lyon
21:59
Speaker 1: Brothers we went and stole these plants. Man. I mean,
22:02
Speaker 1: if you look back on the Craig from the freeway,
22:05
Speaker 1: you would have seen us running across this field with
22:08
Speaker 1: these plants. Okay, So anybody could have went, what are
22:11
Speaker 1: those black dudes boys doing running with all these giant plants.
22:15
Speaker 1: And I had a little Fiat h X y nine,
22:18
Speaker 1: which is a two seater, and the truck was in
22:20
Speaker 1: the front, so I had to put the plants in
22:22
Speaker 1: the front and were black, and my win seal. So
22:26
Speaker 1: along the way I could have stopped and stopped by
22:28
Speaker 1: the police and been incarcerated. And my life could have
22:31
Speaker 1: changed on that right turn left turn that you were
22:33
Speaker 1: talking about earlier. You are meeting men who have done
22:37
Speaker 1: something far worse than what I've talked about, but they
22:40
Speaker 1: have made a mistake. And sometimes because they made a mistake,
22:43
Speaker 1: we don't give them a second chance, because we feel
22:45
Speaker 1: that they're unworthy of that second chance. And then in
22:48
Speaker 1: your book you talk about guess what they are fathers too.
22:52
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that journey of you doing a story
22:56
Speaker 1: I think basically changed your life, and it started with
22:58
Speaker 1: Camp Grace. Yeah, it was one of the most impactful
23:02
Speaker 1: stories I've ever done. Uh, there's a I don't even
23:05
Speaker 1: remember how we found out about this camp, but um,
23:07
Speaker 1: I was probably reading some article in an obscure publication
23:11
Speaker 1: about this um summer camp at a maximum security prison
23:17
Speaker 1: in California. Salina's State Valley Prison was the name of
23:21
Speaker 1: the facility. And for one week every summer um they
23:27
Speaker 1: bring in about a dozen or so kids to basically
23:32
Speaker 1: have a camp experience with their dads. I mean, you know,
23:36
Speaker 1: arts and crafts, and they play games, and they sing
23:39
Speaker 1: songs and they do all the stuff that you do
23:42
Speaker 1: at a camp. And these kids are between the ages
23:44
Speaker 1: of you know, seven or eight and in fifteen or sixteen,
23:49
Speaker 1: and the guys who are part of the program have
23:52
Speaker 1: to UM exhibit good behavior for a full year. The
23:56
Speaker 1: camp is a it's a privilege. And UM. I went
24:00
Speaker 1: out and spend some time talking to these guys and
24:04
Speaker 1: it ended up being just an emotional day because these
24:08
Speaker 1: these are men. First of all, most of them are
24:10
Speaker 1: not going to be getting out of prison. I mean
24:12
Speaker 1: they've some of them have have have been convicted of
24:15
Speaker 1: doing some pretty heinous things. UM. But the two women
24:20
Speaker 1: that started the camp, both of their husbands were incarcerated
24:24
Speaker 1: and consequently weren't really a part of the child's lives.
24:31
Speaker 1: They would get the occasional visit, you know, on a
24:33
Speaker 1: weekend and you've got the glass, and but they weren't
24:36
Speaker 1: able to really be a part of the child's lives.
24:38
Speaker 1: So they came up the side therefore camp and I
24:40
Speaker 1: talked to one of the guys out there, and I
24:41
Speaker 1: asked him the question I knew a lot of people
24:43
Speaker 1: are going to be asking when they watched and read
24:45
Speaker 1: the story, how can someone um accused of some of
24:51
Speaker 1: the things these guys were accused of. How in what
24:55
Speaker 1: universe do they deserve the right to spend time I'm
25:00
Speaker 1: with with it with the child. And without missing a beat,
25:04
Speaker 1: he said to me, tears in his eyes. Um, they
25:08
Speaker 1: might be right. I may not deserve it, but you
25:11
Speaker 1: know what credit my kids do. My kids deserve to
25:15
Speaker 1: know their father. They didn't do anything wrong, they didn't
25:19
Speaker 1: make any bad choices. Uh. And his larger point, and
25:22
Speaker 1: I think this was just a valid If we're serious
25:24
Speaker 1: about stopping the prison pipeline that we always talk about, uh,
25:30
Speaker 1: then we need to make sure that kids of of
25:32
Speaker 1: incarcerated individuals have relationships with them. He spent a fair
25:36
Speaker 1: amount of his time talking to his daughter about choices,
25:40
Speaker 1: making good choices, not ending up where he ended up.
25:44
Speaker 1: It's a fantastic program, and it moved me. It also
25:47
Speaker 1: moved me with Sean because my grandmother, and it's the
25:50
Speaker 1: first line in the book. Not to give way too much,
25:52
Speaker 1: but you know my my grandmother. Uh. Now, when I
25:55
Speaker 1: knew her, she was here, she was going to church,
25:59
Speaker 1: at coming home from church. She she only loved the Lord,
26:04
Speaker 1: but apparently long before I came along. But this just
26:08
Speaker 1: just say she's a bootlegger. I want to give it
26:10
Speaker 1: no more than that, just say she's a bootleg. I
26:11
Speaker 1: don't want to give her the earther part. Okay, she's
26:13
Speaker 1: a bootlegger. She was a bootlegger. She was a bootlegger.
26:16
Speaker 1: And and and and got a second chance, Yes she did.
26:21
Speaker 1: And had she not gotten a second chance, who's to
26:25
Speaker 1: say whether I would be here right now, you know.
26:28
Speaker 1: But here's the thing I want to point out about
26:29
Speaker 1: that now his grandmother was in the same jail that
26:33
Speaker 1: Martha Stewart was in. So she got how many chances
26:36
Speaker 1: as she's got, Okay, but in the same facility now.
26:41
Speaker 1: And so so when I when I when I read
26:43
Speaker 1: the book and and and and it's, like I said,
26:45
Speaker 1: an emotional journey because it's your story. But it's a
26:48
Speaker 1: relatable story because I remember when my younger brother was
26:51
Speaker 1: incarcerated in California and uh glass talking and uh and
26:56
Speaker 1: I was in tears and and and he told me
26:58
Speaker 1: he couldn't cry. He's I reached I I can't cry.
27:01
Speaker 1: I can't they can't, he said, I can't. And my
27:04
Speaker 1: nickname is Ricky Rickie. I can't cry because they see
27:06
Speaker 1: me crying out here. I pay a price when I
27:09
Speaker 1: go back inside. And in that book, you know, gen
27:13
Speaker 1: when you interview, and he said, look, he said, thank
27:15
Speaker 1: god I have a sale by myself because now I
27:19
Speaker 1: can't cry. And so I love the fact that you
27:22
Speaker 1: were humanizing people because we we see these we see this,
27:25
Speaker 1: we see the violent size, and nobody's trying to downplay that.
27:29
Speaker 1: But we have made mistakes. There are people on the
27:31
Speaker 1: other side of this that have to deal with the
27:33
Speaker 1: emotionalities of kids, and like one of them said, look, um,
27:37
Speaker 1: it's all right early on when you're playing cards and
27:40
Speaker 1: you're playing catch, but when they become teens, the conversation
27:43
Speaker 1: becomes different. And that's what fatherhood is all about, which
27:47
Speaker 1: leads to your whole life or being a father, being
27:50
Speaker 1: connected to your dad and not being the present day father.
27:53
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that, correct. You know what I think
27:57
Speaker 1: that I think that you can be sheet by negative examples, um,
28:04
Speaker 1: just as much as you can be shaped by positive examples.
28:06
Speaker 1: In fact, I think in so many instances, maybe even
28:08
Speaker 1: more so so. You know, growing up, I didn't know
28:13
Speaker 1: the kind of man that I wanted to be. I
28:16
Speaker 1: didn't certainly know the kind of father that I wanted
28:18
Speaker 1: to be. But up until a few years ago, I
28:20
Speaker 1: knew I didn't want to be anything of anything like
28:22
Speaker 1: my dad. Yes, um and and and and that was
28:26
Speaker 1: what what motivated me personally and professionally, probably to a
28:29
Speaker 1: certain extent now that I'm talking about it, but no,
28:33
Speaker 1: it's it's it's funny because I have to remind my
28:36
Speaker 1: kids sometimes and I have a job, and and and
28:39
Speaker 1: consequently I I cannot be at their back and call
28:44
Speaker 1: uh day and night, because you know, when my dad
28:47
Speaker 1: was there when we were younger, it was it was big,
28:50
Speaker 1: like it was a wedding or funeral or graduation or
28:54
Speaker 1: that that little league game, and I write about it.
28:56
Speaker 1: I remember because it was so weird. Dad didn't show
28:59
Speaker 1: up with stuff, part because he worked third shift at
29:02
Speaker 1: the post office, but in larger part because because of
29:05
Speaker 1: the addiction issues that he had. UM. So, as a result,
29:10
Speaker 1: I'm going to the other end of the spectrum. So
29:12
Speaker 1: if you know, I'm there for soccer games and my
29:14
Speaker 1: daughter had a gymnastics recital last Sunday morning, and you know,
29:19
Speaker 1: I'm physically present as often as and as much as
29:22
Speaker 1: I can to do you know, pick I do school
29:24
Speaker 1: pick up, and I'm trying to do it all because
29:28
Speaker 1: you know, my dad didn't do any other Another problem
29:32
Speaker 1: that that that you create when you do that, And
29:34
Speaker 1: it took me a while to pigure this out. I've
29:36
Speaker 1: created expectations. So if if I'm not there to go,
29:41
Speaker 1: Daddy's got to travel for work, Well daddy, why can't
29:44
Speaker 1: you can take a later flight and they can go tomorrow.
29:48
Speaker 1: And I've had to say a few times, you know
29:50
Speaker 1: that it's the job that pays for all of this.
29:56
Speaker 1: You don't get to go to dance or you don't
29:58
Speaker 1: get to go to soccer if that is not hopping
30:01
Speaker 1: on playing absolute So that that's the that's the that's
30:05
Speaker 1: the unfortunate part. But they're you know, they're starting to understand.
30:08
Speaker 1: But it's funny as you become a parent, how you
30:11
Speaker 1: at some point to come you become the kind of
30:15
Speaker 1: for me at least, the kind of father that I
30:16
Speaker 1: used to mock, yes, hate it with My dad would
30:19
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, how much something costs. You don't
30:22
Speaker 1: have money for us, and and when we were younger,
30:26
Speaker 1: we didn't like you know, he wasn't lying, like we
30:28
Speaker 1: knew we didn't have a lot of money when we
30:30
Speaker 1: had enough with my kids, you know, I've said a
30:33
Speaker 1: few times, and we can't afford this, and myself. I
30:36
Speaker 1: missed a beto say yes we can, what you can,
30:41
Speaker 1: and I'm like, and then you then you find yourself
30:43
Speaker 1: trying to come up with a new excuse like, uh,
30:46
Speaker 1: well maybe we can't afford it, but that we don't
30:49
Speaker 1: need it. You don't need that, right right right? You know.
30:53
Speaker 1: So it's it's hard, and I thought we're about to
30:56
Speaker 1: wrap up. I want to bring up a very um
30:59
Speaker 1: a moment as a parent and I want to share
31:02
Speaker 1: with you because you wrote about it when your son
31:04
Speaker 1: climbed into bed and you know, and then your kids
31:07
Speaker 1: when they sleep. If you if you don't have kids children,
31:10
Speaker 1: you got a very young child. When they climb in
31:13
Speaker 1: the bed, they forget you in bed. They kids got
31:16
Speaker 1: the worst sleepers in the world, especial when they get
31:18
Speaker 1: that six to ten years of age were sleep And
31:22
Speaker 1: so when you said that in the book, you said
31:24
Speaker 1: you you may miss that. I remember I talked to
31:28
Speaker 1: my daughter when she was like seventeen. I said, hey,
31:30
Speaker 1: what you what you're hopping bed and watch your TV?
31:32
Speaker 1: Sit what you're talking about? I said, you know, can
31:35
Speaker 1: we not watching TV? Can we not watch TV? Together? Men?
31:39
Speaker 1: When used to go I don't do that. No, more Dad. No, no,
31:42
Speaker 1: we're not doing that. So I would tell you Craig,
31:45
Speaker 1: that moment brought brought laughter to me. It brought back
31:48
Speaker 1: memories as your book, you know, the amazingly good book
31:51
Speaker 1: Pops Learning to Be a Son and the Father Man. Uh,
31:54
Speaker 1: it's a great read. And like I said, it slowed
31:56
Speaker 1: me when I said the word slowed me because I
31:58
Speaker 1: was becoming emotional because, like I said, my father was
32:01
Speaker 1: a beer drinker. My father worked hard as a truck driver.
32:05
Speaker 1: My father, like I said, was he in my life?
32:08
Speaker 1: I don't know, But did he shape me to be
32:09
Speaker 1: the man I am today? Yes he did, because he
32:12
Speaker 1: had a role in it and that that role has
32:14
Speaker 1: made me to be the man I am. I'd like
32:16
Speaker 1: to believe I'm a good parent to my daughter, a
32:18
Speaker 1: good husband to my wife. And uh, those are the
32:21
Speaker 1: things that that the stories that you tell out of
32:23
Speaker 1: this book, from the incarcerated to individuals who raised you
32:27
Speaker 1: as a family, the community, and whether teachers who shaped
32:31
Speaker 1: you as third grade, teachers who shaped you as as
32:34
Speaker 1: you go through life and you went to school and
32:36
Speaker 1: you didn't wanna didn't want to shame your uncle when
32:39
Speaker 1: you didn't pledge cap outside but it was all good man.
32:43
Speaker 1: I love your book, Craig. I want to appreciate you
32:45
Speaker 1: for putting it out there. Man, thank you, Thank you
32:48
Speaker 1: for your time. I've enjoyed this conversation. You're very good
32:51
Speaker 1: at what you do. Thank you for having Okay, we
32:53
Speaker 1: talked soon, man, I'm gonna put this on. I got look,
32:55
Speaker 1: I got a nice little social media I'm gonna put
32:57
Speaker 1: that out there and my my news letter. We're gonna
32:59
Speaker 1: get that out there for you. Okay, Greig, thank you, sir.
33:02
Speaker 1: All right by by. If you want to see you
33:04
Speaker 1: here in my interviews and Money Making Conversation, please go
33:07
Speaker 1: to Money Making Conversation dot com. I'm Sean McDonald. I
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