Latest / The Virtual Couch / Validation, Co-regulation, and Emotional Immaturity (with a Hint of Spirituality) w/Angela De Hoyos, ALC

Transcript

Validation, Co-regulation, and Emotional Immaturity (with a Hint of Spirituality) w/Angela De Hoyos, ALC · The Virtual Couch

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Another episode of Waking Up to Narcissism and or The Virtual Couch.
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If you end up watching this on YouTube, you will see
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basically a patchwork quilt of video because I came back on after editing this
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entire episode and re-recorded so that I can put in the introduction that we're
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running this on The Virtual Couch as well as Waking Up to Narcissism because
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I cannot tell you how much I think that you're going to enjoy today's episode.
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Now, with that said, watch as we now smoothly transition over into the regular
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opening that I had recorded specifically for the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast.
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But if you are listening to this on the virtual couch, you are in the right place.
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Sit back and enjoy the show. I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage
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and family therapist, host of the virtual couch podcast as well.
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And thank you as always to Riley Hope for her intro, the theme song, Not My Job.
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Please go find Riley and her music wherever you stream your music.
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I'm really excited today. That is a line. That's a line that I say often.
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I can't actually think of a time where I said, hey, you know what,
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folks? Today, this one's kind of a dud.
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To buckle up. Not all the balls are strikes, but I really am. I'm excited.
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I'm excited to share this episode with you because recently I had the chance
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to sit down with my friend and fellow therapist, Angela DeHoyos on her podcast
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called Finding Balance with Mental Health and Spirituality.
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We talked about validation and we ended up having one of those conversations that felt very dense.
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I don't like going back and listening to my own podcasts.
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And I was on a walk a couple of nights ago.
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And I thought, okay, I want to hear how she does the intro. And then I listened
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to the whole episode. We cover so much ground.
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There's an episode on Frank Kate Anthony's Divorce Survival Guide podcast,
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where we go into so much detail about the concepts around differentiation,
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especially in an unhealthy relationship, that I often refer to that one when
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I am talking about really deep diving into differentiation.
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And I had the same feeling talking about validation and finding who you are,
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your sense of self, as I listen to this episode, I want to encourage you to
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go find the podcast and follow it and listen to all of Angela's work because
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she's a really good therapist.
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I think she's found exactly what she loves doing.
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And Angela also sent me the audio file because back in the day,
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I used to post some of the interviews where I went out on somebody else's podcast
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to hopefully help my listeners connect with other podcasts that I think that they may enjoy.
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I've got the link in the show notes. So we talked about validation and we talked
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about what it is and what it isn't and why so many of us are still walking around
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just starving for it without even realizing how many things fit in this validation bucket.
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And before we get to today's episode, let me own up to the fact that I am about
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to throw you a pitch, a sales pitch.
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So while my business manager would not like how I'm about to do this pitch,
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I am going to let you know that you are welcome to hit that forward 30 seconds
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button. I don't know, four or five, six times if you want to skip this or hear me out.
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So I want to talk really briefly about a reboot of my Magnetic Marriage course.
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It is coming soon to an internet near you.
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And if you happen to listen to both the virtual couch and waking up to narcissism,
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they attract different audiences.
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And so then that leads to different emails, different conversations,
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and different tones in the episodes.
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The emails from the virtual couch are often from listeners who are saying things
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like, we've grown apart, we don't communicate anymore, but we both are willing to work on it.
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And those are very real struggles. But if you're a long time waking up to narcissism
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listener, you know that these emails that I get are a little bit different because
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they come from people who aren't just disconnected.
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Often there's an individual in the relationship that is destabilized and they
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are really not understanding what is happening at all.
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And they're definitely convinced that they're the problem.
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And these are the people that feel very alone in their relationships.
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People have been told so often that they're too sensitive, that they've remembered everything wrong.
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And so they've started doubting their own perception. These are people whose
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nervous systems won't settle down around their partner, even when nothing obvious is happening.
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So that's a very different starting place than, hey, we're both just kind of not sure what to do.
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I want to honor the difference because now as I talk about a marriage course,
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I want to be really clear about what my magnetic marriage course is and what
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it isn't. It's not a cure for narcissism.
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I'm not promising a secret formula that will finally give your partner the aha
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moment. And I do see that messaging out there from some people that are creating a lot of content.
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And I think that often leads to more confusion and damage and self-blame because
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it's not going to work that way. There is no cure.
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I'm not saying that there's no hope. That's probably something for a different
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episode. But what I do believe is in the power of a solid framework.
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Sometimes I think we understand ourselves better when we have something grounded
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to interact with a lens, a mirror, a structure that helps us see what's actually happening.
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And then who we are inside of it.
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That's more of what my Magnetic Marriage course is designed to be.
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In it, I share what I've learned from more than 20 years working with couples.
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And in it, we explore how and why we choose our partners, this anxious avoidance
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cycle that keeps so many couples stuck.
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We talk about my four pillars of a connected conversation, which will give you
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a stable place to return when everything in your reality feels pretty slippery.
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I cover losing strategies and circular arguments, and I go really deep into
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Schnarch's four points of balance of differentiation or learning how to hold
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on to yourself in a relationship without attacking or collapsing or withdrawing.
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Will it fix everything? No. Can it help an individual in a challenging relationship? Yes.
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Am I going to continue to interview myself? No. No, I'm not.
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But the course may help you see more clearly. It may give language to what you've
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been feeling, and it may help you determine what you need, whether that is a
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healthier path forward together or the clarity to make a different decision.
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So the next round isn't open yet, but the wait list is. So go to TonyOverBay.com
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slash magnetic and sign up today, and I will buzz through this quickly.
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I would greatly appreciate it if you follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch
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or TikTok at virtualcouch. And let me do something very ironic because we're
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going to talk today about validation. And I'm sure at some point I'm going to
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talk about not needing validation any longer once you know who you are.
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And while I also am claiming to know who I am, don't get me wrong.
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Validation still feels really good, especially when you do feel seen and understood,
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especially if it's from somebody that you care about.
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And because I'm trying not to say but in the new year, and I'm going to ask for a favor.
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If you haven't ever left a review for Waking Up the Narcissism and or the Virtual
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Couch podcast and you genuinely enjoy the content.
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It would do this old man good if you would take the time to rate and review the podcast.
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There's a pretty funny thing that happens. It's almost like the opposite of
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if you've ever heard of Gottman's concepts of the ratio of positive to negative comments.
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It needs to be something like five positives to every one negative.
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In the world of ratings and reviews, all it takes is one negative review to
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undo very many positive reviews.
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And the negative reviews for waking up to narcissism in particular,
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it's usually all or nothing, which is kind of ironic because that is immature.
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And it is somewhat narcissistic in that it's either people really connect with
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it or people absolutely say this is ridiculous and dumb.
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Because I do think, and I may sound immature here, but a lot of those reviews
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show the emotional immaturity of the reviewer.
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Yet the review process itself does not care.
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So I could have hundreds of five-star reviews and then one person who is probably
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told they're the narcissist or they caught their spouse listening to Waking
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Up to Narcissism. Those are the people who are typically motivated to go leave
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a review, and then they often sound like this. These are some real ones.
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He's dumb. One star. All he cares about is money.
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One star. I listened for five minutes. I couldn't understand a word he was saying,
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which in my book is actually a positive review, yet they only gave me one star.
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So I really would appreciate it if you took a second rated and reviewed the
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podcast. So back to today's episode.
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So there's a moment in this interview with Angela where we talk about something
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that I see, I would say most every day in my office, people come into therapy
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and very understandably so they want me to tell them what to do.
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They want clarity. They want direction.
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They want certainty. They want somebody to say, here's what you need to do.
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You're paying me the big bucks. Here's the right answer.
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And here's who's right. And here's who's wrong. And here's how you fix this.
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And here's what you say. and by the way, yes, you are absolutely okay.
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And I genuinely understand that desire and by the way, you are okay because
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it would be so much easier if somebody could just come in and hand you a blueprint for your life.
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Here's who you are, here's what you like, here's what you should tolerate,
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here's what you shouldn't and here's how to make your partner finally act differently.
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But that is not therapy, it's actually more like parenting.
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And even then, it's not really healthy parenting because a grounded.
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Differentiated, securely attached parent understands something that emotionally
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immature parents often don't.
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That my child's emotions are not a referendum of my worth as a parent.
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So when a child comes home and says, hey, hey, dad, I didn't make the team,
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a grounded parent may feel sad for their child, but they don't collapse into
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shame or defensiveness.
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They may say things like, you seem really sad, or tell me what that was like, or that must hurt.
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They make space. They don't rush to fix it or minimize it or turn it into a
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commentary about their own competence as a parent.
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The old Uncle Rico moment. Oh man, I never got cut from a team.
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And as a matter of fact, toss me that football champ. I can throw it over that mountain.
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An emotionally immature parent, on the other hand, might respond with something
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like, man, I thought you tried your best. Or, well, that coach clearly doesn't know talent.
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Or even, I can't believe this. After all the time and effort that we put into
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this, do you know how much I sacrificed to play catch with you, champ?
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So what just happened there is a subtle thing, but it's really powerful that
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the child's disappointment gets swallowed up by the parent's insecurity.
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That also happens to be projection. Projection is when I can't tolerate my own
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uncomfortable feelings like inadequacy or embarrassment or rejection.
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So then I unconsciously assign them over onto you.
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So instead of sitting with a thought of, man, I'm noticing that this makes me
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feel like I failed for some reason, the parent pushes that discomfort outward
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and it becomes, you didn't try hard enough.
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Or it's sometimes I hear the versions where somebody says that the parent has
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told them, man, you really made me look bad. You embarrassed me.
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So that same thing will show up when the teenager says, hey,
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I don't necessarily still believe the same things that you believe anymore to a parent.
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Now, a differentiated parent will still feel sad.
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They might even feel fear and even grief, but they regulate themselves first.
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They say, okay, hey, help me understand what you're thinking.
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I'm so proud of you for coming to me
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with this. That must have been really difficult. Tell me more about that.
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An emotionally immature parent might say, after everything that we've taught
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you, and now this is what you're doing?
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Or, you know, you're breaking your mom's heart if you break away from our faith
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tradition or if you really do believe these things.
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Because the child's independence feels like a threat to that parent or that
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family, that family system's identity. Again, projection.
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The parent's anxiety gets placed onto the child. And now the child isn't just
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navigating their own development as a human, but they're managing the parent's emotional stability.
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So if you grow up in a home like that, you probably learned something really specific.
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You learned that your job was
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to regulate other people and you became hyper-tuned. You became very kind.
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You became very careful. You became good at reading a room.
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The highly sensitive person concept, HSP.
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And that skill set helped you survive. It was an adaptive way to live that is
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maladaptive now as an adult. But you survived.
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It got you here. Thank you, inner child.
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But it's probably also made you really vulnerable to partnering later in life
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with somebody who also needs you to regulate them. It's the familiar.
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This is where the concept of being pathologically kind, I think, becomes so important.
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And kindness is beautiful. Don't get me wrong. It's one of the best human traits.
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But when it becomes pathological, when it becomes to your detriment,
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then that's where it's a challenge, a problem.
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When your empathy, when your willingness to self-reflect, when your sensitivity
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then become the very tools that somebody else uses to convince you that everything's your fault.
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Many of the people who find themselves in long-term relationships with emotionally
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immature partners are the ones that did grow up in homes and they were wired
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for hypervigilance. where love felt conditional and then connection would disappear without warning.
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So when their adult partner says you're too much or you're too sensitive or
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you're not supportive enough, they don't immediately reject that message.
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They internalize it because if it's their fault, then maybe they can fix it.
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It's really fascinating because admittedly, I start to recognize that truly
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is a lot of the stories that I'm hearing more behind why a therapist becomes a therapist.
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Now, not me. I was the special flower. I did it just because I like people.
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No, it's because of exactly what I just shared.
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That if you go through life assuming, well, everything must be my fault,
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but if I work hard enough, I can fix it.
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If I can learn enough concepts and then share those with the people around me,
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then they'll finally understand that I am of worth and value,
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and that will make our relationships better.
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And that is a pretty adorable thought for so many people.
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Because if you're doing it so that, then people will like you.
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While that might be the push you need, ultimately, you need to do it so that you like yourself.
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But if I can make everything my fault, then again, I can fix it.
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And that feels probably safer than accepting the far more destabilizing possibility
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that But the person that you chose, the person that you really want to grow
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old with may not reciprocate what you are hoping for in the relationship.
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And sometimes I'm working with couples where we start talking about a concept
14:13
of capacity, where you may then recognize because of their own childhood wounding,
14:18
trauma, abandonment issues, that they may not be capable of the kind of emotional maturity,
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that you now recognize you really want in the relationship.
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The more that I sit with this dynamic, the more I'm beginning to see it as its own form of betrayal.
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And I've thought about this for, it's been a couple of years,
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and I don't think I've recorded anything about it because I know betrayal trauma is a thing.
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I've been trained in betrayal trauma by a psychologist who is very well known in the field.
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And betrayal trauma is often associated with infidelity. But I think that the
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concepts can be so much more.
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I think it can often be about the slow erosion that happens when you repeatedly
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go to the person who is supposed to be your safe place, your co-regulator, your partner in growth.
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And they continually tell you that the The way that you think,
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the way that you feel, the way that you exist is wrong.
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And then often they don't do anything about it.
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You do. And when you come back to the relationship and say, okay,
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I've worked on the thing that you have told me that I am, and then they have
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another thing, and then they have another thing.
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That's not their role. Their role isn't to define you. It isn't to parent you.
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It isn't to determine whether your inner world is valid. When you finally walk
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into therapy after years of trying harder, being kinder, being more understanding.
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Reading more books, listening to more podcasts, trying to figure out and understand
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what is wrong with me that's making the relationship not connected,
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you often don't come in and say, hey, help me discover myself.
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You come in saying, please tell me what I'm doing wrong.
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And that's where therapy can feel almost infuriating at first because I don't
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want to tell you who you are and I won't tell you what you should do because
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nobody likes to be shut on. Here's the big part of this.
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My job is not to replace your partner who replaced your parent as the new authority over your identity.
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My job is to help you build a solid sense of self. So you don't need to outsource
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your worth to someone else who is not looking at it with your best interest in mind.
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So in this conversation with Angela, we go all the way back to the origin of
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validation, literally to the moment of exiting the womb and learning that we
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exist through interactions with other people.
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We talk about co-regulation and a lot about emotional immaturity.
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And we unpack the difference between validation and agreement and how you can
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acknowledge and consider someone else's experience without unfolding your own sense of self.
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We even explore a spiritual lens. And that's not something I get to do very often.
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And we look at the idea of a differentiated, grounded, loving parental figure in God, in your creator,
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in your higher power, who doesn't fluctuate in approval based on your performance,
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which is so meaningful for those of you who have discovered that often a bonus
16:56
or free faith crisis or faith deconstruction comes with.
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The awareness that your relationship isn't what you've always hoped it would
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be. So if you have spent years asking, am I okay?
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If you've been trying to decode somebody else's moods in order for you to feel
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safe, or if you are chasing validation from somebody who just can't seem to
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hold it steadily, then I really think you're going to get a lot from this episode.
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And as you listen, what is what that brings up for you?
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Notice whether it feels like, and just seems like Angela and Tony just validating me.
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But I want you to notice whether you can begin to practice that quiet,
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grounded internal voice that says, you know what? Maybe I am okay.
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I'm not as crazy as I think I am or that I've been told that I am.
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I do exist. I matter. My experience is real. And maybe I don't need somebody
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else's approval in order for that to be true.
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I think you're really going to enjoy this interview where I went on Angela's podcast.
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Again, it's called Finding Balance with Mental Health and Spirituality.
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I'll include a link to her podcast in the show notes.
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Please go subscribe to Angela's podcast as well, wherever you listen to podcasts.
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Okay, let's get to this episode.
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Well, I am more than excited. The fact that Tony Overbay has said yes to being
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interviewed on my little teeny podcast.
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I want to introduce you to Tony. Tony is a marriage and family therapist,
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and he was in California, and he's also in Arizona.
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I found Tony several years because you've gone on Jodi Moore's podcast.
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And she interviewed you. You talked to her about some things that are pretty important.
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And Tony specializes in a few things that I've really admired.
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A couple's therapy modality from Sue Johnson called Emotionally Focused Therapy.
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He also has really great parenting modality.
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And one of the things that he's most known for is how he views narcissism in the world.
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Not as this scary, you must walk away from anybody who has this,
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to introducing the idea that this is more about emotional immaturity.
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People that just didn't get good models growing up.
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And today, as we go on our ABCs, he's going to talk to us about validation,
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which is something that encompasses all of these types of relationships.
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I am grateful. I feel very seen right now because, yeah, narcissism, it's a big word.
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And I've got the two podcasts, Virtual Couch and Waking Up to Narcissism.
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And then the whole point of the waking up to narcissism is I knew fairly early
19:23
going in that I wanted to change the conversation because only a small percentage
19:28
of people would be diagnosed narcissists.
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But then we throw it around like it's half or more of the population.
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But then if you reframe it of we're all emotionally immature till we're not
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and we don't know what we don't know and all those wonderful things,
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people are a little more willing to listen.
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If you tell somebody, hey, you're a narcissist, then that is that never goes
19:47
well. And I don't use all or nothing statements very often, but that one doesn't.
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But if you if we talk about our immaturity, you might get a well,
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you are, too, which is a pretty immature response. But then we can at least
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start talking about it, hopefully.
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Yes, for sure. Based on what I have shared, is there anything on your mind that
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you're like, I've got to talk about today?
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There's a lot. And it's funny, I love that you're asking me that because I do
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find that I get on something shiny and new and it becomes what I'm viewing everything through.
20:13
And that has been all of these things from emotional maturity and the ways that
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the things we do now were adaptive in childhood and they become maladaptive
20:22
as an adult or, you know, emotional maturity as what you were saying in the
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introduction of how we saw things modeled.
20:28
If our parents didn't model taking ownership or accountability of something
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and that nothing was their fault,
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then it's hard to blame the kid coming out of a relationship or a situation
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like that where he also says, well, I mean, you didn't say that or I didn't do that.
20:44
But I'm currently obsessed with this concept of co-regulation.
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And it's the way that we react, how our emotions are talking to each other.
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And the most basic example of this is when a newborn is crying and a mom holds it close to her.
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And what she's saying is, hey, you don't know how to regulate your own emotions.
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So let me let you borrow my central nervous system.
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And then when you calm down, we are co-regulating.
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And that is a beautiful version of it. And in theory, we would then be able
21:15
to healthily co-regulate with our partners.
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So if one person's really feeling amped up and the other one's nice and grounded
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and calm, then it would then calm that person down as well.
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And Brene Brown has some really cool concepts around this. She talked about numbers.
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Maybe I come in and I tell my wife, hey, I'm firing at an 80 today.
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So if she says I'm firing at a 10, well, I've got you. But if I come in and
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say I'm at a 30 and she says I'm at a 20, maybe we shouldn't have these emotionally
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charged conversations or potentially emotionally charged conversations.
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I'm obsessed with the concept of co-regulating and I think it fits in a little
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bit with the validation concept.
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I think it does really well. Some of the things that I discovered early on with
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my emotional immaturity was boundaries.
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When you read the boundaries book, it talks about how we're responsible to others, but not for them.
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And one of the things it talks about is that we're not responsible for other people's emotions.
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Now, on my podcast, it's all about finding balance.
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So we could go into a situation and say, well, I can do whatever I want and
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you're responsible for your emotion.
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But what you're talking about is that we do have a lot of effect on each other.
22:17
Absolutely. And I love that you brought it up that way because co-regulation
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speaks to, it's this work by a guy named Dan Siegel and it talks about the familiar.
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So if I grew up in a home where there was a lot of chaos and where I never knew
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which version of my mom or my dad I was going to get, and I'm going to be a
22:33
little more wired for hypervigilance, I'm going to understand that love or validation
22:36
can disappear at any moment. And if it did, it's probably my fault.
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I mean, this is the message I'm getting as a kid because the parent isn't taking
22:43
ownership of things, then I become wired for this hypervigilance.
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And I'm going to think that is what a relationship looks like.
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So if I am going out into the world as an adolescent or dating,
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and there's somebody that is incredibly grounded, it might seem foreign to me
23:00
because they don't have enough.
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Excitement is what we call it. Reactivity and drama.
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Not of drama and chaos. To us, it feels familiar.
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And so that's what a relationship feels like. And our emotions travel,
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I believe, two to two and a half times faster than our logic.
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So we're actually reacting to things.
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And a lot of times then the logical brain kicks in and tries to make sense of
23:21
it. We don't even recognize that we're reacting to that person's reactions.
23:26
And then they're reacting to my reaction. And we're going to fill in some words
23:30
at some point because that's what we do. and try to then make big meaning of
23:34
these words when really it's our central nervous systems that are arguing with each other.
23:38
Okay, so it's like bypassing stuff that we don't really know how to articulate
23:42
anyways, getting to something deeper and how do we do that?
23:46
And I just love going deeper and deeper and deeper because I'll give you an
23:49
example from the emotionally immature world.
23:51
There's one of my favorites and it's already come up today in a couple of sessions.
23:54
I call it emotional reasoning. If I think it or if I feel it, it must be true.
23:58
The classic example that came up today was a wife and it can be either wife
24:02
or husband whoever starts this wonderful concept.
24:05
But if she just said, yeah, I just kind of feel like you're mad at me.
24:07
So then if I think it, it's true. So therefore you are mad at me to her husband.
24:11
And the husband happens to be a people pleaser.
24:14
So then he's like, oh man, oh, I'm so sorry.
24:16
Even though he's kind of trying to feel, and you can see his awkwardness now,
24:20
but whereas, I mean, I don't think I'm mad at you, but I don't want to tell you that you're wrong.
24:24
So then he's, I'm so sorry. Let me, let me try to do better,
24:27
but he doesn't even know what he's doing.
24:29
And so when you slow that one down, she doesn't like the way something feels.
24:34
And so what she's seen model is if I think it or I feel it, it's true.
24:37
And now I need you to make me feel better, even though I don't even exactly
24:41
know what I need. And you certainly don't know what I'm talking about. But now it's on you.
24:46
And you can see that there's so many layers there, but it is the dance.
24:49
And so to this couple, it's familiar.
24:51
And so then they start talking. I'm trying to get them to use my beloved four
24:54
pillars of a connected conversation.
24:55
And eventually, they're not even really hearing the words I say,
24:59
but then he says some things and it sounds like the right things to say.
25:03
So she tells him she appreciates that. He feels great. And so they feel better.
25:09
If I ask them 10 minutes later what they just talked about, nothing.
25:12
They won't know. So it's just like this emotional co-regulation.
25:15
So really what we're just trying to circle around today is validation.
25:18
I've had some therapists that I've listened to that almost talk about validation,
25:22
like it's an unnecessary or the fact that we want it as a dependence and the
25:27
validation feels great, but it's not what we really should be looking for.
25:32
And I've really come to not enjoy that idea because I think validation is very
25:38
important the way I understand it.
25:39
So I'd love to hear your opinions about what is validation.
25:43
Well, I'm going to go all the way back to the exit of the womb.
25:46
I think that's a good place to start.
25:47
So a child exits and then we don't even know that we exist until we interact
25:52
with another human. We don't even know we're a thing.
25:55
It's in our interactions as a baby that the way I interact with the world is
26:00
going to help me survive.
26:01
And so for a baby, all they have to do is cry and then they'll get fed and they'll
26:05
get held. They'll get their diaper changed.
26:07
And thank goodness, babies are pretty cute. And so they are validated for the
26:12
things that they're expressing, the things that they need.
26:15
That's why you're saying that they're getting responded to in a way that lets them know they exist.
26:20
Yeah, exactly. Yes. Oh, I need to carry you along with me. People noticing and responding.
26:24
You can be the person that makes sense. I'll say a bunch of words and then I'll
26:27
say, Angela, tell them what I said because I know I can get pretty excited about this.
26:31
So then at that point, the kid gets a little older And they've learned.
26:34
And the reason I like starting all the way back exiting the womb is because
26:37
it's built in to need people to know I exist.
26:42
And how do I get them to know I exist? By doing or saying things,
26:46
by the way that I show up in the world.
26:48
And so I think we can start introducing the concepts of I need to be validated that I exist.
26:53
Is this why when you get like the cold shoulder or the silent treatment,
26:56
it is so painful? I think so.
26:59
I really do. Because all of a sudden, wait, do I not exist?
27:02
If I don't get anybody interacting with me, then do I disappear?
27:06
And I know that sounds like some magical thinking. But again,
27:10
if you're a kid, you're just existing in the world.
27:12
And so now you get a little older and you say, I would like some dessert before
27:17
dinner. And then the parent says no.
27:19
And all of a sudden, wait a minute, I asked for something and I didn't get it.
27:23
So then how do I get this to happen? So now I'm going to need to either go really
27:28
be really sad, get really angry,
27:30
push buttons, whatever, because I need to get the thing that I want.
27:34
Because if I don't, then I may not exist.
27:37
I may not live. Sad anger is what used to work as a baby.
27:40
Yeah. So you're trying it again. Well, it's funny you say that as a baby,
27:43
but I always like giving the example of if anybody's taking their kid out in
27:46
public and kid wants toy.
27:48
It's so cliched, but kid wants toy. I say, not now, bud. And then they get really
27:52
angry and then they throw a fit and I say no. And then eventually,
27:56
what do I do to get rid of my own discomfort and to calm them down?
27:59
As then I say, okay, just this one time, but I'm not doing this again.
28:03
And then I feel like I just said the right things. And then they get the toy.
28:06
They don't care at all about the thing I just said.
28:09
They just know, oh, so if I get really big with my emotions,
28:13
then I get the thing I want. Watching what you say, but watching what you do.
28:17
Exactly, right? So then they're learning that this is like the emotions behind that.
28:20
Again, it doesn't even matter. Now they we co-regulated wasn't very healthy,
28:23
but we did. And they just learned that, OK, man, I got to go pretty big to get the things I need.
28:28
And then I tell myself that, OK, but I said I won't do that again.
28:33
And I won't right now, except for the next time when they get really loud again.
28:37
And you said something earlier that we might not know we exist if we're being ignored.
28:41
And I know as adults, we've got the knowledge to know, well,
28:44
I do exist, you know, I can touch a door and it responds.
28:47
But what we as a child where we might feel like, am I actually invisible?
28:51
As an adult, we're going is our value invisible?
28:56
Is my need to be needed and valued in this relationship disappearing?
29:01
Well, you sent me a nice text about a podcast series I did. I did this two-part
29:06
one of Jack and Jill. Which is incredible.
29:08
You're very kind. I worked on that one a long time. But you got Jill,
29:12
who's her childhood was unpredictable.
29:14
Her mom struggled with untreated anxiety, depression, oscillated between emotional
29:17
absence and emotional flooding. Then you've got a kid that if she was upset,
29:21
her mom sometimes didn't even notice.
29:23
And then sometimes she would notice, but she didn't respond.
29:26
And then sometimes, even more confusingly, Jill's emotions, and we're talking
29:31
when she was a kid, would then trigger this complete collapse of her mom.
29:35
And then Jill would then have to go and...
29:37
Comfort her mom. And then Jill's dad was really emotionally distant.
29:40
These were based off of real people.
29:42
So her nervous system now is learning that connection's unstable and it could vanish at any minute.
29:46
And that when somebody withdraws, it means I did something wrong.
29:50
So you just look at the way that that starts playing out or her feelings are
29:53
either too much or not enough.
29:55
She's responsible for other people's emotions because that's literally what her mom was showing her.
29:59
And then the bigger one is if I can just be attentive enough,
30:02
loving enough, perfect enough, then people will stay.
30:04
And so you've got somebody that then shows up in a relationship and they become this human doing.
30:09
I just have to continually do. And basically it goes back to what we're talking
30:12
about where in order to know that I matter or that in a translation that I exist,
30:17
she learns that connection is uncertain and I have to continually work to secure it.
30:23
If it isn't there, then I'm doing something wrong.
30:25
Talk about a disadvantage of somebody just learning how to be or become versus
30:29
what do I have to do? And then it will literally never feel like enough.
30:33
It sounds like a good explanation of what validation is. is acknowledging and considering.
30:39
Yes, I like this acknowledging and considering. And especially the,
30:42
because acknowledging, and it's when you're introduced to me with the parenting
30:46
information too, I love this nurtured heart approach is the parenting model I love.
30:50
And one of the first parts about that is just, they call it active recognition
30:55
of just even my kid walks in the room and I say, hey, Jake, Sid,
30:59
I just say their name. I acknowledge that you are there.
31:01
I remember when I used to do a lot of work with teenagers where I would hear
31:04
this, I don't even know if my parents know I'm part of the family.
31:07
I think that people do start to think, okay, what do I have to do in order to
31:11
know that I exist or I matter?
31:12
And unfortunately, a lot of times they don't get acknowledged until or validated,
31:17
as sad as it is, until they are in trouble or they do something wrong or bad.
31:21
And when they're doing things well, it's almost like the parent saying,
31:25
okay, well, I don't want to, I don't want to disturb them.
31:27
Or, well, I need, I have to focus more on the kids that are getting in trouble.
31:31
And so then this person doesn't even, they're not even seen or understood or
31:35
acknowledged. And then what was the other one you said? Was it considered?
31:38
Considered. Yeah. Tell me about that. Well, I think that it's,
31:41
that someone's willing to look at things from your perspective.
31:44
Yeah. If you had to describe or define validation, what would you say?
31:49
I'm going to go with the two.
31:51
And only because I don't have a go-to definition and I like exploring the concept.
31:55
But what I like about considered is that it means that somebody really does
31:58
see me. They want to know me.
32:00
They want to know the things about me. And I think that does calm our central
32:04
nervous system to know that, man, this person is invested in getting to know me.
32:09
And I think so often as a couples therapist, and I think I borrowed this from
32:12
Jennifer Finless and Fife, but it's the courage to be known and then the courage to know somebody.
32:17
And a lot of times we can put ourselves out there, but then if we aren't validated,
32:22
we aren't considered, it can feel pretty hollow to then say,
32:25
man, I'm really putting out, putting myself out there, especially to a partner.
32:28
And then they're not responding with consideration, curiosity.
32:32
There's a client that I just love to death and she talks about being nothing.
32:35
And that phrase just hits me every time where she could put herself out there
32:39
and a spouse who's not saying anything, that that can feel worse than even sometimes
32:44
when one is criticizing.
32:46
Because criticizing, at least
32:47
you know you exist, that this person is willing to interact with you.
32:50
But then the nothing is, I just said words out into the void,
32:53
and this person's literally in front of me and no response at all.
32:57
And are you familiar with the never-ending story?
33:01
Oh, is that with the bad animation and the puppets back in the 70s or 80s? No, it is in the 80s.
33:08
No, but the never-ending story has this different planet.
33:12
And they have the nothing that is like eating the planet. I forgot about that. Nothing.
33:17
Yeah, that is scary. We do. We want somebody to know us. We want somebody to
33:21
hopefully be genuinely curious about us. And oh, and this is what I like, Angela.
33:25
Back to the people that say you don't need validation. Validation is a bad word.
33:29
When you're healthy, that you're learning that I am okay.
33:35
And now I want to share this thing with another person. I still want a connection,
33:39
but it doesn't mean that I don't want validation.
33:43
It's, I think it's really good, especially when somebody is giving it to me
33:47
who knows me, who cares about me.
33:50
And it's the old cliche that if I don't love myself, then I can't truly love
33:54
somebody else because if I don't love myself, then I'm trying to figure out
33:56
a way to get this person to love me.
33:58
And I think that can often be part of that trap of seeking validation because
34:02
I'm trying to get this person to validate me.
34:04
But if I know who I am and then I'm putting myself out there because I want
34:09
to share an experience with another person.
34:12
And they respond, then that feels amazing. That can be a healthy form of validation.
34:17
But it's when I'm seeking it or I desperately need it, that's where it can really be a challenge.
34:22
Because if I'm trying to figure out a way to get this person to validate me
34:25
and I'm not being myself, I'm worried about the things I say or I'm not willing.
34:30
People pleasing, jumping through the hoops, trying to be the doers so you can
34:33
get the reward at the end. Yes.
34:35
Yeah. Yeah. You tied that up well. So then if I go back to what we were talking
34:38
about with this earlier example, that if I do the right things,
34:41
then and then the person says, great job.
34:44
Cool. Okay. I just have to do that combination of things again every time and I'll get the good job.
34:49
But then I'm so desperate of trying to figure out what those things are.
34:52
Did I do them well enough, long enough?
34:54
And then why is it that sometimes I do those things and I'm told that those
34:58
weren't even the right things to do.
34:59
So it can be really confusing versus I have to know they're the right things to do, period.
35:04
And I connect in my mind this idea that if we are living to please somebody
35:10
else, we're not necessarily living according to our values.
35:14
Right. And so if other people seeing us, acknowledging us, considering us is validation.
35:19
But one of the core things you brought up is this concept of I am okay.
35:23
I would call that self-validation. Yeah. Like you're letting yourself know I'm
35:28
okay and I exist and these are my values. and then you can enjoy living from
35:34
your values and getting feedback from others if it's positive,
35:37
then that validation changes.
35:39
Feels a lot better. Yeah, it does. And then if somebody is not validating you
35:43
and you're okay, if you're in a relationship with this person,
35:46
you can be genuinely curious about why they said the things they did or why
35:50
they aren't responding.
35:52
Hey, I want to understand why you don't say anything back. But you have to be
35:56
so okay with yourself and grounded to be able to do that because the answers
36:00
could be, well, I thought what you said was dumb.
36:03
Well, then I have to know, okay, well, I know what I said wasn't dumb.
36:05
That seems pretty immature, but tell me why you thought it was dumb.
36:08
I really want to know you.
36:09
And I will put these numbers on it that I think ultimately try to help somebody
36:13
get to this. I call it 90% solid, 10% flexible sense of self.
36:16
So I know who I am. What if 90% of the time my response is going to be that
36:21
I'm okay, but I'm gonna leave 10% open because I want to interact with other humans.
36:25
And then I want feedback, but that doesn't mean that I have to fold or say you're
36:30
right, or okay, I'll do the thing that you're telling me to do.
36:33
But I can be genuinely curious about why you think that would be good or beneficial for me.
36:37
And I love that you say that, too, and that you say, I don't have to fold.
36:41
I don't have to agree because you just highlighted what validation is not.
36:45
Validation is not necessarily agreeing.
36:48
It's recognizing and understanding, acknowledging, but you can still have a
36:53
different opinion while also addressing someone else's, which is validating. Yeah.
36:57
And when you go back to this concept of co-regulating, when one person starts
37:00
to become more grounded, more differentiated, the other person doesn't always
37:04
just ease into safety like the baby does to the mom.
37:09
They will typically then think, okay, this doesn't feel right.
37:12
So I'm going to say bigger things or I'm going to push new buttons to try to
37:16
get you to react because I'm used to you reacting.
37:18
Because if we really get into the weeds of truly emotionally immature...
37:22
Is that because if I really don't even know why I'm saying the things I'm doing,
37:26
I just say these things, you react, and I get to say, okay, well, you're the problem.
37:30
But if you all of a sudden are reacting, then wait, do I have to do something about that myself?
37:35
Do I have to look at my own behavior? And that's not something that is very
37:38
fun for the emotionally mature to do. And I think in family systems,
37:42
they talk about this idea of equilibrium, where we're used to being a certain
37:46
way, and that's comfortable, even if it's not healthy.
37:49
And so as one person does become more grounded, the other person might be striving
37:53
for that equilibrium in the ways they know how.
37:57
And one of my therapists that I talked to said, the more awkward you feel,
38:01
the better you're likely doing.
38:02
Because change is going to feel uncomfortable. If we're doing it,
38:07
hopefully we're doing it right.
38:09
If we're following good advice, there's going to be an awkwardness until we
38:12
ease into that comfort with time.
38:14
That's so good. I like that. I think it is so often somebody that is finally
38:18
expressing themselves.
38:19
But if they don't get the validation in real time from the other person,
38:23
it's awkward. If I don't get the validation, then I need to ask for the validation.
38:28
Usually after I'll do the 90-10, I'll say, okay, let's say that somebody's 40%
38:32
solid, but 60% flexible sense of self.
38:34
Then I literally am asking others, well, what do you think about me?
38:37
Or what do you think I should do?
38:39
And I want to just say, hold on, I have no idea what it feels like to be you.
38:43
How much you think about this thing that whatever it is you're asking me for
38:45
my opinion on. And as a therapist, it's kind of interesting because they train you when people ask you.
38:51
Our job is to not answer and let them decide who they are. I'm not here to tell
38:56
you what to do or who you are.
38:58
We get to discover that together and you could talk about it,
39:01
but not my job, your job. Right.
39:04
And it's so good to Angela, because that does speak so often to the person that's
39:08
in our office has not even had that chance before. So they genuinely don't know.
39:12
They want to say, well, I don't know what the right answer is.
39:14
And, oh, there isn't one. This is your life. You get to go do and explore and decide.
39:20
And there's going to be plenty more choices after that one. But if somebody
39:24
has been raised in this, I don't want to get it wrong.
39:26
Or there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. Then that means,
39:30
well, if I'm not thinking about things the way that you do, then I must be doing it the wrong way.
39:35
And the wrong way comes with a good old dose of good old guilt,
39:39
which eventually makes us all the way to shame.
39:40
Not, oh man, I feel bad about that versus I am bad. I am. I continually think the wrong thing.
39:45
Versus this is what I'm thinking.
39:48
But then nobody's there to be curious about it. They're just there to tell me,
39:50
well, that's not the right thing, champ. You shouldn't be thinking that.
39:53
And I would say if that's the response you're getting from a lot of people in
39:56
your life, look for some more people in your life. Yeah, yeah.
40:00
Maybe you can branch out and find somebody who does.
40:03
Right. And it's such a good point about the origin story of this need for validation.
40:07
If we grew up in homes, and in this two-part Jack and Jill episode that I did,
40:11
I tried to lay out what it would have looked like in a healthy version,
40:15
where if Jill, the one we were talking about earlier, grows up where her parents
40:19
are grounded, and they're good, they're differentiated, they model accepting responsibility,
40:24
acknowledging if they did something that they didn't mean to,
40:26
or that hurt somebody's feelings, or if Jill comes home and she's upset,
40:30
and then they're able to say, man, tell me about it, and they make space for it.
40:33
Because there's even a good sounding version of this where the parent says,
40:36
well, don't worry about it. It's not a big deal.
40:37
You'll get over it. And everybody has these problems or challenges.
40:40
But what they're telling the kid is, hey, I know you're having feelings and
40:43
emotions, but you shouldn't be. And they're not a big deal, even though they
40:47
feel like a big deal to you.
40:48
And so there's even a nice version of that, that the kid is learning.
40:51
Okay, so not only are my feelings and emotions wrong, but I need somebody else to tell me that I'm okay.
40:58
Exactly. So, this podcast is specifically about mental health and spirituality.
41:04
So, I would love to hear what you think about validation from a spiritual standpoint.
41:10
Okay. Let me find my soapbox and my wind machine because I want my hair to blow while I say this.
41:15
I do want to say where I want to meet people where they're at.
41:17
And for some people, spirituality is a really important aspect.
41:20
And others deal with a lot of people that have navigated faith journey,
41:23
faith deconstruction, faith crisis. this. It's interesting.
41:26
It's called this relational frame of where we all have a word,
41:29
has a meaning, and it has an emotion behind it.
41:31
And so, sometimes talking about spiritual things with someone will trigger them.
41:36
And other times, it will be the familiar and that the person wants to have some
41:40
sort of spiritual reference or frame.
41:42
I have two big concepts that I'm grateful to be able to share.
41:46
I've got the atonement, and I also have God as a differentiated father.
41:49
So, those are my two big ones that I don't get to speak enough about.
41:52
So, whether it's literal or metaphorical. The concept about the atonement of
41:57
Christ is that he took on the sins of the world, bled at every poor,
42:01
has felt everything. So, he has this perfect knowledge.
42:04
What I think gets overlooked is that the atonement isn't just about sin.
42:07
It's about grief and sorrow and pain and loss and all the big feelings.
42:10
So, I like this concept that Jesus had perfect empathy. He's a great empath.
42:15
And so, then when we go to somebody and we say, what do you think I should do
42:19
or somebody goes to someone, even from a place of confession, is that you're.
42:24
Often asking, I don't like the way I feel right now and I need somebody else
42:29
to tell me that I'm going to be okay.
42:31
I've worked with a lot of people and there's almost like a spiritual roulette
42:35
of sorts, a leadership roulette, where somebody can go to a leader and then
42:39
they can confess or look for spiritual guidance and leave feeling worse because
42:44
the person says, man, that's really bad.
42:45
I can't believe you did that. Do you know what you're risking?
42:48
And I can have another spiritual leader say, thank you so much for sharing that
42:51
with me. That must've been really hard. How am I here to support you?
42:54
And you don't know. You don't know which version of that you can get.
42:58
And I could talk about that for a long time.
43:00
And so the concept of wanting to go to somebody for validation or to be told that you're okay is.
43:06
Again, it can work except for the times it doesn't. But if you look at that
43:09
concept of the atonement, going to Christ to say, am I okay?
43:13
That atonement, then if we say nobody knows exactly how it feels to be you other than Jesus.
43:19
Again, this is why I love the concept of it's literal or it's metaphorical,
43:22
is that he knows your hopes, your dreams, your pains, your fears,
43:26
your sorrows, your grief, your joy, your sadness.
43:28
And so no one that you're going to talk to on a day-to-day basis will ever know
43:32
what it feels like to be you. My big joke here is when somebody says,
43:36
I know exactly what you're going through.
43:38
Like they don't. And my most hilarious moment of this was I was doing a big training.
43:42
They had a bunch of people that were in these bishoprics and relief side presidencies,
43:46
elders horn presidencies.
43:47
And this guy got up and he said, hey, can you just give me advice on what's the best way to tell?
43:51
He's like, I've got this lady. She's single. She's got three kids. I'm working with her.
43:55
And he's like, look, I know exactly what it's like to have three little kids.
43:57
And she just doesn't really want to hear what I have to say.
44:00
And so I said, so when you were a single mom, it was a guy, right?
44:04
I said, when you were a single mom of three, then I mean, this is what you did
44:08
that made you feel better. And everybody laughed and he was a good sport.
44:10
But it's like, nobody knows what it feels like to be you because we're all this
44:14
combination of our nature, nurture, birth order, DNA, abandonment,
44:16
all the things that make us us.
44:18
So no one, of course, no one knows what it feels like to be you.
44:21
Even when somebody says that, it actually shuts us down a little bit.
44:24
Even being able to say, man, I have no idea what that must feel like,
44:27
or I can only imagine what that would feel like. But I really want to understand.
44:31
It's difficult because even when the person starts to explain what it's like
44:34
to be them, our natural almost fix it or defense mechanisms are going to say,
44:38
but you're doing a great job or you don't need to worry about that.
44:41
Or a lot of people are going through this and it can just feel so unseen.
44:44
So, I love the concept of that the atonement is this example of no one knows
44:48
what it feels like to be you except for Jesus.
44:50
And maybe we need to think before we go to somebody else to say, am I okay?
44:55
And asking someone else to then validate something that they could never imagine
45:00
that we've been through before.
45:01
I love that about the atonement. I would love your thoughts if anything comes up from that.
45:06
I was thinking, anytime that we have any sort of revelation or inspiration or
45:11
messages from God, even if people have really messed up, the first thing that he says is, I love you.
45:17
Yep. Or he calls them beloved.
45:20
And then he might address the problem and then immediately tells them how to move forward.
45:26
Yeah, moving forward with love and kindness and compassion and charity and love
45:30
unfeigned and hope and the bright.
45:31
And it actually sets the table perfectly for this other concept is that God,
45:36
as a heavenly father, is the most differentiated entity, being,
45:40
because he knows, and I will go he, she,
45:43
they, the universe, whatever one's spiritual higher power would be.
45:48
They're good because they are, because they know they are.
45:51
So then I can do things that aren't perfect and they don't look at that as I'm
45:56
a bad parent, because that's the lack of differentiation.
45:59
If my kids do something and I'm upset because they make me feel bad or they
46:03
make me look bad, I lack differentiation. I lack true grounded.
46:07
But if I'm okay, then they're going to go and do the things they're going to
46:10
do because they are, because they're kids, because they're going to go through
46:13
experiences and things are not going to be perfect and life is messy and all those things.
46:17
But a differentiated parent is grounded and they're steady. I know who I am.
46:22
So you don't need to make me feel better.
46:24
And I am not disappointed in you. So then this is where I go with,
46:27
if God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and his love is unconditional,
46:31
which I believe in all those things, then whenever I think God's mad at me, that's a me thing.
46:36
I can turn to God and say, man, you must be disappointed.
46:39
It's like, nope, that's a you thing. I'm good. I love you the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
46:43
My love is unchanging and unconditional. And I am here. Now we look at the concept
46:47
of repentance, which the definition I wanted was the one about turning to.
46:51
So now if repentance means to turn toward a God who is so differentiated,
46:56
grounded, and loving, and is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow,
47:00
then I will repent all the time because my repentance is me being able to check
47:04
in with my grounded parent that's, hey, I can make space for all your big emotions
47:09
and your feelings, and you're okay.
47:11
I don't have to tell you that you need to do it a different way.
47:15
I'm here and I can provide you with what I, if you really want to know what
47:18
I would do, sure, I'll have that conversation.
47:20
But ultimately, you're going to do the things you're going to do because you're
47:23
you and that's how I made you. And isn't that amazing?
47:25
So stop trying to outsource your worth and your need for validation to other
47:29
people because that has the potential for them to tell you that you're not of
47:32
worth. If I'm going to go to somebody else and say, what do you think?
47:35
What I'm really asking is, I think I know that I'm okay, but I need another
47:39
person to interact with in order to bring up some more feelings and emotions in me.
47:43
I may go to somebody and say, what do you think? And they say,
47:45
well, I think you should do this. And I can even tell them, hey, thank you.
47:47
But on the inside say, oh, wow, that is like the craziest thing I've ever heard.
47:51
I'm definitely not going to be doing that, which further helps me solidify the
47:54
way that I want to show up. So I think when you put that concept of the atonement
47:57
that nobody knows what it feels like to be you except for Christ and Christ said, you're good.
48:02
And I can turn to a grounded, differentiated Heavenly Father who says,
48:04
not only are you good, I love you always.
48:07
I think that is the model that I'd like to think that I'm trying to work toward or achieve.
48:13
That's awesome. And it reminds me of the Max Licato book, You Are Special.
48:17
That is just one of my favorite things because you go to other people for validation
48:22
but sometimes we just need to go to God and to establish our identity and recognize
48:27
our worth we don't have to find our worth our worth is there sometimes we want
48:31
a mirror and so it's best if we go to the best mirror that there can be which is
48:37
And knowing that he loves me because he loves me because he loves me.
48:41
And like I said earlier, because I am loved, I am the beloved. So I am loved.
48:46
So when I don't feel like he loves me, I think it's so important to know that
48:49
is a me thing. Why am I not feeling that?
48:52
Because I can turn to him and he's there and he loves me because he does.
48:57
I can get a little woo on this too.
48:59
I'm not the biggest fan of the concept even of around the feelings or meanings
49:03
even the word sin can have with it because we're just going through life the
49:06
first time. doing things.
49:07
And we do things. And sometimes people say, man, I love the way you did that.
49:11
And I think, oh, cool, I did it good.
49:13
But the same thing I might do, somebody else, they don't like it.
49:16
Then they say, I don't like that you did that thing. I think,
49:18
man, darn it, I did a bad thing.
49:19
And so I'm outsourcing even my approval or validation on how someone else is
49:24
feeling about something and whatever their experience is.
49:26
If I say this and somebody's like, oh, so murder is okay. I'm like,
49:29
if you go right to murder when I say that, that's probably the problem, you know?
49:33
Right. Sometimes when we look at it, a benign example, it can make more sense
49:36
because what you're talking about is experience.
49:39
Sin sometimes is something that you can never wipe away, but it's not like that.
49:44
And my daughter runs cross country and she did a race and it wasn't a really great time.
49:47
And her coach afterwards was talking to them and said, the only bad race is
49:50
the one that you don't learn from.
49:52
Yeah. And I think that's how it works with sin too. The only unpardonable sin
49:56
is the one you don't learn from.
49:58
So it's this experience. Yeah, we're going to make mistakes,
50:01
but these mistakes are to help us learn.
50:03
I know. And I have to tell you, Angela, just because I'm trying to be the most
50:05
grounded, authentic, valid, whatever person that I can be, is even the concept
50:10
of a mistake is fascinating to me because if I'm going through life for the
50:12
very first time as me doing things,
50:14
then I mean, I don't think I'm trying to do them in order to make someone upset
50:19
or with the hope that this will be identified as a mistake, but I might not
50:23
show up the way that I had hoped I would.
50:25
And then I like what you're saying because at the core of that is like,
50:27
well, there's more data. That's interesting.
50:30
And one of my favorite things is when somebody will even say,
50:32
well, why'd you do that? My actual answer is because I did.
50:35
But now we can take a look at why I did it, whatever it is, because it sounds
50:38
like you're pretty disappointed in what I did.
50:41
And so I do want to understand. And then I will take ownership of it,
50:44
something that I'm not a big fan of either, because the real reason I did it
50:47
was because I reacted to something in that moment the way that I did.
50:50
Because I think so much of this is I will have somebody practice in my office
50:54
of being grounded and differentiated and curious.
50:56
And then they go out and start trying to have the conversation with somebody
50:59
and it doesn't go like they had planned.
51:01
And they come back and it's all this talk about, man, I blew it and I couldn't
51:04
even do this thing. And I know that you're disappointed. And I'm like,
51:07
oh, that is a lot of stuff we got to cut through versus.
51:09
So check this out. I felt great about it here. I went out there.
51:12
That didn't go very well. That's fascinating. So now we can look at it.
51:16
We just got so much more session out of that thing than I need to put you back
51:20
together for half an hour to then see if we can get to the, well, tell me more about that.
51:24
Oh my goodness. Well, I know we have to get you ready to go on to meet some more people today.
51:29
I could talk to you for hours and hours. Angela, you're doing great work.
51:34
You're in the right place, the right profession. Thank you. is really exciting
51:39
to be able to be part of this where things that we can learn ourselves and get to turn around.
51:44
And one of the other podcasts I really love is The Full Cup.
51:46
And he always talks about how cool is it that I get to sit here and learn from
51:49
other people's experiences.
51:52
And he calls it turning it to wisdom. And I just think that is,
51:55
that's exactly what we get to do. We get to turn it to wisdom.
51:58
So thank you, Tony, for coming on and sharing your wisdom today about validation
52:02
and especially with a spiritual lens.
52:05
I just love that we can apply that. Yeah, no, thanks for letting me do that.
52:08
That isn't all the time. All right, until we meet again.
52:10
Thanks, Angela. All right. All right, we'll talk to you later. Okay, bye-bye.