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Stop Managing Your Partner's Emotions: How One Couple Broke Free From the Anxious-Avoidant Trap · The Virtual Couch

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Welcome to episode 462 of The Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay.
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I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach,
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writer, speaker, husband, father of four.
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And I am really excited to talk about...
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A couple's aha moment. And I often say with individuals that you can never be
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the one to give someone else an aha moment or an epiphany.
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But when you see a couple work together, there's just something really special
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about that as a couple's therapist.
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But before I tell you more about what the episode's about, I want to take you on my train of thought.
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I would love for you to imagine a few scenarios with me.
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Scenario one, your partner comes home from work and you can tell that they are
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visibly stressed. You can see it in their face, in their body language.
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And then immediately before they've even said a word, you feel yourself start to tense up.
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And part of you wants to ask, hey, what's wrong? But another part of you is already calculating.
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If I ask, then they're going to vent for 20 minutes or maybe I'm already supposed to know.
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Then I'll probably say the wrong thing and we'll end up in a fight.
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So maybe if I just stay quiet and I just let them decompress,
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that will be the right thing to do.
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So you say nothing. or you retreat to another room.
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And then later that night, they're upset that you didn't seem to care about
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their day. He didn't ask him anything.
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Or scenario two, you forgot to do something that you said you'd do.
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And again, not a big thing, pick something up from the store,
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make a phone call, whatever it is, something like that.
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But let's say it's the third, maybe fourth time this month that you forgot to
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do some things that you said you were going to do.
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And you really mean, well, you really do mean to do them when you say that you're going to do them.
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So your partner brings it up and then you can kind of hear the frustration in their voice.
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And then here's what happens in your head. Okay, here we go. Here we go again.
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They're building this up to be a bigger conversation about how I never follow through.
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And if I just go ahead and apologize right now, maybe I can head this off.
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Or maybe this is the time I defend myself.
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Maybe what I'll do is I'll point out all the things that they didn't do today.
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What's the right response that will make this go away the fastest?
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So you're not actually listening to what they're saying. You're calculating your next move. Okay.
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Or let's go with one more. You're trying to tell your partner about something that really hurt you.
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Something that they said last week that's really just been bothering you.
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It's just been kind of eating you up.
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And as you're talking, you watch their face start to change.
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They're starting to shut down. Or maybe they're getting very defensive.
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And you can feel the conversation slipping away before you're even finished making your point.
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So you escalate. Your voice gets louder. And your examples get a little bit
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more dramatic and a little more hurried. because some part of you knows if you
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don't land this right now, if you don't really get them to hear you,
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the moment will pass, nothing will change.
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And all of a sudden, you're in a full-blown argument about something that started
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as you just really trying to share your feelings.
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So if any of those sound familiar, you are a regular human being.
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Here's what's happening in all three of those scenarios.
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And this is going to be the thread that runs through everything that we talk about today.
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Both people are trying to manage
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the other person's emotions instead of really being present to them.
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Now, earlier this month, I did a two-part episode on the concept of co-regulation
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in relationships or how our nervous systems learned in childhood to either seek
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connection when we're distressed or to protect ourselves through distance.
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And honestly, I am grateful for your feedback. The feedback I got from those
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episodes was incredible.
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So a lot of people reached out and said, hey, this explains a lot about my relationship.
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And they love the fact that it explained the things in their relationship because
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if there's these origin stories that make sense of why we're together,
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then maybe that will help us figure out how to get out of these negative patterns.
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So here's what I want to do today. I want to take those concepts and then show
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you what they actually look like in real time and a real couple's journey from
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that stuck place to something profoundly different.
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Because here's the thing about co-regulation that I didn't fully get into in
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those earlier episodes.
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When your nervous system learned as a child that connection is unreliable or
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dangerous, you don't just carry that forward as a belief. You carry it forward as a state of being.
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You carry it forward as a survival strategy that most likely plays out every
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single day in your adult relationships, not just in your romantic relationships,
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but in the relationships with friends, colleagues, you name it.
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So if you're anxiously attached, if your childhood taught you that connection
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is unstable and you need to work constantly to secure it, then you develop strategies
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for managing other people's emotions to keep them close.
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You become hypervigilant to their moods. You try to anticipate their needs and
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you calculate what to say to keep them engaged because disconnection feels like
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abandonment. It can feel like death.
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Now, if you're avoidantly attached, if your childhood taught you that connection
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is dangerous and people will fall apart on you and it will be nothing but criticism
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and you need to protect yourself through distance, you develop strategies for
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managing other people's emotions to keep yourself safe.
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So you may withdraw or you minimize or you give calculated responses designed
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to make uncomfortable emotions go away as quickly as possible because emotional
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intensity not only feels dangerous, but it feels like a trap.
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And then here's what is wild. Both strategies are about the same thing, emotional management.
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One person is managing to pull closer and the other is managing to push away.
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But both people are trying to control the other person's emotional state rather
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than actually being present to it.
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And this is exhausting for everybody involved. And it's not going to bring you closer.
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You're just trying to get out of the moment. You're trying to manage someone's
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emotions without even probably knowing what you don't know about how to communicate more effectively.
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Today, I want to share a story about a couple that I worked with,
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and it's more based on a accumulation of couples. So, I've changed details so
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that we're not breaking any confidentiality.
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I can only describe what they had in session that really drove me to create
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this episode as a profound breakthrough moment, almost an aha moment.
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And I've been doing the couple's work for over 20 years.
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I really do enjoy it. A lot of times people tell me that they don't really even
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know what a healthy relationship looks like.
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I want to do more of these kind of episodes to say, here's what it can look like.
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I want you to at least have something in mind because when you witness these
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moments, these genuine shifts, it never gets old.
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It's actually one of the reasons I love doing couple's work so much.
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But before I get to their story, I want you to think about something.
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And this connects directly to those three scenarios that I described at the beginning.
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When your partner is upset, and I mean, you could even say when one of your
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kids is upset, again, a work colleague, you name it.
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But when your partner's upset, and I mean really upset, how often do you find
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yourself calculating what to say?
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Not what is true, but what will manage their emotions or what will diffuse yours or get rid of yours?
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What will get them to calm down? What will make this whole thing go away?
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What are the right mouth noises and arm movements that will be the right combination
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that will get us out of this moment?
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What will keep them from shutting down or from escalating?
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And then here's the companion question to that. How often do you find yourself
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escalating or withdrawing based on whether your calculated response is working?
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When your attempt to manage their emotions isn't landing the way you hoped,
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do you then pursue harder? Do you get more frantic?
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Do you talk faster, louder, or do you retreat?
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Do you shut down? Do you hunker down and wait for the storm to pass?
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Hold those thoughts because we're going to come back to them.
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So let me tell you about this couple.
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I'll call them Mark and Sarah. And they came to therapy after Sarah discovered
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that Mark had been hiding a significant amount of debt from her.
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And we're not talking about forgetting to mention a credit card bill or an extra
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Netflix subscription. We're talking about tens and tens of thousands of dollars
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that she had no idea existed.
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Some credit cards, maybe we'll call them secret loans that he'd taken out without
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telling her money that had been slowly accumulating while she thought that they
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were working toward their financial goals together.
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When Sarah found out, and unfortunately she found out the hard way,
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when a collection agency contacted her, she felt completely betrayed.
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The foundation of their relationship felt like it had crumbled underneath her
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because here's the thing about financial infidelity, and that's what we're calling
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it. It carries a lot of the same elements as even things like a physical affair.
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And I know it's not exactly the same.
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I'm not trying to say that, but there's the secrecy, the lying,
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the breaking of trust, the separate life your partner was living that you knew nothing about.
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And Mark, at first, he did not handle it well, not well at all.
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He was defensive. He minimized. He got angry that she was overreacting.
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He felt like she wasn't giving him a fair chance to explain himself.
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A lot of signs of emotional maturity. He'd say things like, hey,
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I was trying to protect you, or I was going to tell you when I figured it out,
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or hey, you're making this into a bigger deal than it is, not like you're perfect yourself.
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And I would imagine that some of those things sound familiar.
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For the first several weeks of therapy, they were stuck in this pattern.
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Sarah would come in desperately needing assurance, and she would get upset,
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and she just needed Mark to take it, to take a tongue lashing of sorts.
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But she also needed Mark to guarantee it would never, ever happen again.
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She needed him to prove that he was trustworthy.
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And when we dip back into the world of emotional immaturity,
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she just needed to feel that way, but she did not even know what it would take to feel that way.
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So, Mark needed to put on his tap shoes and start dancing. But here's what he was actually doing.
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He was calculating, not in a twist his mustache being very nefarious way.
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It's something that I think most of us do.
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Every response was reactive or it was designed to manage Sarah's anxiety.
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He'd say things like, hey, I promise I'll never lie to you again.
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Or you can check all the accounts anytime you want, or I'll do whatever it takes
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to earn your trust back. Now, those sound like the right mouth sounds.
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They sound like good things to say, right? And they are good things,
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except when they aren't genuine, when they're just words designed to make the
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other person feel better so you can stop feeling so uncomfortable.
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Or if we're looking at the world of differentiation and David Schnarch's four
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points of balance, there is a concept where it sounds like he is taking ownership
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of his part and not projecting it onto Sarah.
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But there's a little extra part that I think is overlooked very often.
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And that is, but is he making meaningful effort for change or is he just saying the right things?
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And I believe he means it in the moment, but then once he says the right things and it feels good,
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then what does he do to make sure that this isn't going to happen again,
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as well as what role does Sarah play in being able to share her true emotions
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or feelings as well? And Sarah, she could feel it.
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She'd hear these promises and apologies. And after a few weeks or months where
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they sounded good, but then a day or two later, she was back to being upset.
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So now he would say them, but they would land flat.
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And she would say things like, I know you're just saying what I want to hear.
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Or she would look at me and say, he doesn't really feel bad about what he did.
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Or if he was truly sorry, it would sound and look a lot different than this.
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They would have these explosive conflicts, Sarah pushing for certainty and Mark
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giving calculated responses to manage her anxiety.
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And then boom, everything would blow up because his answers didn't sound good
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enough. They weren't enough.
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And probably because they weren't genuine. They weren't authentic.
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They weren't real. They weren't coming from a place of true confidence or him being grounded.
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And as we worked together over several months, we started identifying their
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patterns. And this is where the real work begins because you can't change what you don't see.
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Sarah started recognizing something about herself. She told me,
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okay, when I'm feeling apathetic toward our relationship, then I know now I
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withdraw, I shut down, I don't engage with them at all.
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But if I'm feeling hopeful when I think maybe we're going to get through this,
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then I try to connect and I'm happy and I suggest we go do something together
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and I'll try and talk through things. she was recognizing that she was oscillating
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between complete withdrawal and then attempts at connection.
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And it was entirely dependent on her mood, on her level of hope.
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And that could be dependent on what kind of day she had with the kids or with
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friends or just how she felt overall.
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When she felt discouraged, she was out. When she felt hopeful, she was in.
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And it was so wonderful, even though that doesn't sound so wonderful as far
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as how she was feeling, but for her to start to recognize this,
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that this is something that was happening.
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And it wasn't so that I could tell her she's doing it wrong or tell her,
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well, here's what you need to do. We first just had to say, this is happening.
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So when she shuts down, again, won't engage. When she's feeling hopeful,
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we're going to get through this.
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She was essentially riding a very, very unsteady emotional roller coaster.
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And Mark was right there along for the ride, whether he wanted to be or not.
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And then Mark, he started seeing his own pattern. He said something in one session
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that really stuck with me.
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He said, in those conversations when she's upset, it really does feel like what
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matters most to her is eliminating all uncertainty.
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So he said, I'll do this calculation, I guess, in my head.
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And things aren't really great right now. So the chances of me messing up financially aren't zero.
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I can't say that. So, I just try to say what I think will give her the clarity
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or the certainty she wants.
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I tell her what will make her feel better. Hopefully, you can see what he's doing there.
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He's using logic and this calculated way to share information with her to manage
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Sarah's emotions instead of just sharing his genuine thoughts and experiences and feelings.
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He's being a little bit more of a feelings manager instead of a partner.
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But let's talk about the breakthrough session, the session where everything
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truly shifted. And I want to be really clear as well. They didn't solve their
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problem in this session.
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Mark still couldn't guarantee with absolute certainty that he would never make
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another financial mistake again.
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And Sarah still wanted that. She said she still needed that guarantee to truly feel safe.
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But something fundamental changed. We're about 40 minutes into the session.
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We'd been going a little bit in circles. Sarah was saying that she needed to
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hear that Mark would never lie to her again.
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And she even said, you don't understand saying it to me and to him what that feels like.
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And she said, I guarantee I could pull somebody in off the street.
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They would get it. They would understand.
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But she said, I have to hear that he will never do it again.
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She wanted him to say that he was trustworthy, even though she didn't feel like he was.
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And Mark was still trying to find the right words, the right tone,
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the right level of emotion to convince her.
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And I stopped him. And I said something like, hey, Mark, what's happening for
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you right now as you're trying to respond to Sarah?
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And he paused and I could see him really thinking about it. And he said,
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I'm trying to figure out what to say that will make her feel better.
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I'm doing it again. I'm calculating how much emotion to show in hopes that she'll believe me.
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But the truth is, and he took a breath, he said, the truth is,
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I don't think the likelihood of me hiding money again is very high.
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I really don't. But I know I can't guarantee it won't happen again.
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I can't guarantee that I won't lie in some way to her again.
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I can't make that promise with absolute certainty. And the room got pretty quiet.
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And Sarah looked at him and said, oh, so you're saying you're going to do it again.
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And this is where Mark could have backtracked. And he could have said,
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no, that's not what I meant.
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He could have tried to soften it. He could have played the victim.
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He could have tried to manage her response just to make her feel better, but he didn't.
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And he said, what I'm saying is I'm a human being who makes mistakes.
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And I'm saying that what I can promise is to be honest with you going forward
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and to work on my own stuff that led me to hide things in the first place,
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to keep showing up to therapy, to keep having these hard conversations.
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So we hopefully don't get that disconnected again.
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But I know that But I can't promise perfect behavior forever.
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That's not realistic. And saying that it would be is actually another lie.
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And what did Sarah do? She didn't blow up.
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She didn't storm out. She said, okay, that's the first time that you've sounded
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real to me since the whole thing started.
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And then I worried he was going to say first time. She said something that really
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showed how much work she'd been doing on her own.
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She said, I've been waiting for you to say the perfect thing that would make me feel safe again.
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And I'm realizing that probably nothing that you're going to say is going to
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do that. You can't actually make me feel safe.
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I have to figure out how to feel safe, or at least how to be okay with not feeling completely safe.
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This was differentiation happening in real time. They were both being totally
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open and honest, and they were holding space for incompatible truths.
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Sarah still wanted and needed certainty, and Mark couldn't give it to her, and they were both okay.
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I mean, not okay, okay, but they were present with that reality,
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and they did not attack, and they didn't withdraw.
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They were owning their patterns. Sarah did something that really moved the conversation
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forward. She started talking about her own contribution to the dynamic.
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And I really want to be clear, I'm not talking about her taking responsibility
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for Mark's choices, the financial deception, that was his responsibility.
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But she started talking about the pattern that she'd brought into the relationship
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that made it harder for Mark to be honest with her.
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She said, I really didn't understand how much pressure that you felt to be perfect.
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When you'd have a setback at work or when something didn't go the way you planned,
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we get an extra bill, something would come up.
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She said, I get anxious and I make it about us, about me, about our security,
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about how frightened I was.
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I would catastrophize and you would shut down and you couldn't talk to me about
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your stress without me adding to it.
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And Mark was just listening and you could see him take it in.
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And I have to tell you quick there, but side note, I wanted to say something in that moment.
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Look at how good you guys are doing. And I realized, oh, that's me wanting to
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jump in and get a little validation myself.
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We just let Sarah go and continue to talk. And she said, I'm starting to understand.
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I'm not saying it excuses what you did, but I understand how you got to a place
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where hiding things felt probably easier than facing my anxiety on top of your own.
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And I'm really sorry for how that dynamic was. I can't imagine what that would have been like.
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And this is what taking ownership without requiring reciprocation looks like.
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It's not, hey, I'm sorry. And then, oh, no, I am too.
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She wasn't saying, I did this. So now you have to acknowledge what you did.
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She was just saying what was true for her.
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And Mark didn't immediately jump in with his own apology or acknowledgement.
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He just said, thank you for saying that. It means a whole lot to hear.
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No calculation, no performance. That was a genuine response.
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Now, later in the session, we got into something really uncomfortable.
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And Sarah said, I want to be honest about something though.
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When you apologize to me, it really doesn't land. I hear the words,
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but it doesn't feel real.
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And I've been sitting here thinking that you don't actually feel bad about what you did.
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And now I knew from our previous sessions that Mark had apologized a few different
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times. I had heard it myself because yes, I've been in sessions,
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plenty of sessions where somebody literally cannot apologize, but Mark had.
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So, then I just gently point this out. I said, Sarah, I have actually heard
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Mark apologize in our session.
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So, I'm wondering if you are hearing that or if maybe the issue isn't whether
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he's apologized, but whether his apology sounds the way that you need it to sound.
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And Sarah sat with that for a moment and then she nodded. She's like, yeah, probably.
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Yeah, he has said, sorry. Yeah, I've heard that, but it doesn't sound,
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she said, I don't know, emotional enough, big enough. It doesn't seem like he really cares.
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And I brought up the concept from emotional maturity of if I feel it, it is true.
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And she did not think that it was serious. So then therefore it wasn't.
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And now he needed to prove to her that he was serious.
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But again, she doesn't even really know what it's going to take to have her feel that way.
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And he thought he was explaining himself or apologizing.
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Again, get those tap shoes on and start dancing and see if you can get it right.
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But she said, I really need him to feel it. And Mark said something that was honest and vulnerable.
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He said, this is genuinely how I express remorse.
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I don't know how else to do it. I've tried, but he said, I'm really not a big
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emotional guy. I don't cry easily, but that doesn't mean I don't feel terrible about what I did.
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It just means I express it differently than I think what you're expecting.
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And then Sarah said something that I think is really at the heart of what they've been struggling with.
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She said, okay, I guess what I probably want is for you to sit there and take
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it until all my anger is out of me.
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And I want you to feel as bad as I feel. And I want you to hurt the way I hurt.
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And I want you to do that until I feel better.
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And I just let that one land for a little bit. And I just said,
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man, Sarah, thank you so much.
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Because what you're describing sounds to me like you're wanting Mark to manage
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your emotions. If you can dump them all off onto him, then you're hoping you'll
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feel better. You're wanting him to absorb all your pain until you don't have to feel it anymore.
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And I can understand why you would want that. Who wouldn't want that in hopes
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that it would take all that pain away?
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But I don't think that's something that he can do. And I don't really believe
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that anybody can do that for another person.
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And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, what a moment here. And then she starts to get upset, starts to cry.
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But then she said, so I guess I just have to sit with this pain forever.
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I have to accept that. and said, oh, no, thank you so much for sharing that.
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You don't have to accept it. But yeah, you do need to sit with it.
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You do have to feel it, make room for it.
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And here's the thing. Mark can be present with you while you feel it.
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He can witness it. He can validate it. He can stay connected to you through it.
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He can't take it away. And this is where we get to the real work of differentiation.
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They were both starting to understand something profound. And it is something
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I just want couples to really get to embody, to understand.
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Intimate connection doesn't come from partners meeting all of each other's needs.
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It comes from the courage to be honest about what you think,
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what you feel, what you did, what you need, what you can offer.
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And then that gap between them while staying present with each other through
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the discomfort, not attacking, not withdrawing.
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Sarah still said she needed absolute certainty that Mark would never deceive
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her again. Mark could not give her that certainty without lying, without performing.
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Those are incompatible truths. And they were learning to hold both of those
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truths simultaneously without one of them collapsing into the other person's
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position just to make them feel good.
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Sarah wasn't saying, okay, I guess I'll just accept the fact that you might lie to me again.
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And Mark wasn't saying, I promise I will never make another mistake ever for
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the rest of my life. They were both holding their ground, speaking their truth,
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staying in the relationship.
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Later in the session, I asked them to reflect on what had been different about
23:10
this conversation compared to the previous ones.
23:12
And Mark said, okay, I stopped trying to find the right answer.
23:15
I stopped calculating what would make Sarah feel better. And I just said what was true.
23:20
And Sarah said, I stopped pretending that if he just said the right thing, I'd feel okay.
23:24
I guess I faced the fact that I'm not okay, but that's where I'm at right now.
23:30
And they were recognizing that their reactive patterns were there and they were
23:34
making space for him. They didn't have to get rid of him.
23:37
They didn't have to defend them. But they weren't saying, I do this because you do that.
23:41
They were saying, this is what is happening. This is what I'm doing. This is how I'm feeling.
23:46
And Mark could then see how he'd been using logic and this managing of her emotions
23:52
to avoid genuine vulnerability because he was so terrified of that criticism.
23:58
And Sarah could see how she'd been oscillating between withdrawal and pursuit
24:01
based on however she felt that day. and they both noticed how exhausting that
24:06
had been for both of them.
24:08
And near the end of the session, Mark said something that I thought really captured the shift.
24:11
He said, okay, Sarah, I realize now I'm genuinely sorry for deceiving you about
24:15
our finances. I really am.
24:17
I made choices that I had good reason for, but I broke your trust and I'm going
24:23
to own that completely and I can't undo it.
24:25
And I know I can't promise perfect behavior going forward, but I will promise
24:29
to keep showing up, to keep being honest, even if it's uncomfortable.
24:31
And if you think something's off, I would love for you to come to me and ask,
24:37
and I will make space for that.
24:38
I'll do my best to not be reactive or defensive because he said,
24:42
I want to work on those parts of himself that led him to hide things in the first place.
24:46
And Sarah said, that is probably the first apology that's felt real to me.
24:50
And again, I worried that he would take offense to that and say,
24:53
that's not the first one, but he sat with that. That was her experience in that moment.
24:57
And she said, because you're not promising to fix everything,
25:00
you're just being honest.
25:01
So what does all that mean? What can we take from Mark and Sarah's breakthrough?
25:04
First, recognize the managing of your partner's emotions, that that's not the same as loving them.
25:10
When you're calculating what to say to make them feel better,
25:12
you're not being genuine and your partner can feel that.
25:15
Now let's get into the woo-woo energy vibes that I'm so enjoying as a couples therapist.
25:20
If somebody is operating from a place of authenticity and vulnerability and
25:24
being, this is what I am thinking and feeling, turns out you can stay a little
25:28
more grounded because this is what you're thinking. This is how you're feeling.
25:32
Because if you're trying to find the right thing to say, your partner might
25:36
not be able to articulate what is off, but they know something's off. They feel it.
25:41
Second, your patterns make sense. If you're withdrawing when you feel hopeless
25:45
and pursuing when you feel hopeful, it's not wrong.
25:48
It's just important to notice it. We have to identify it. If you're using logic
25:51
to avoid vulnerability, not bad.
25:54
It's just something to start to notice and understand. And third,
25:58
you really can't make your partner okay with uncomfortable truths.
26:02
Sarah couldn't make Mark promise perfect behavior and Mark couldn't make Sarah
26:06
feel safe through words alone. And that's actually okay. It's not failure. It's a reality.
26:10
One of the questions I get asked often, I've had it several times today in therapy,
26:16
is somebody saying, hey, how do I say this so that my wife won't get mad?
26:20
And I say, oh, you can't. And at first they think, well, you must not have understood the question.
26:24
But it's, I need to say this thing and then allow my wife to feel the way she's
26:29
going to feel and then be able to stay in the conversation.
26:32
Or if you're finding yourself saying, man, I don't want to say this because
26:35
I don't want this person to think this about me.
26:37
Well, I'm actually managing their emotions. I'm not even giving them a chance to feel.
26:42
Now, if somebody still wants to do that, it's a thing. It's okay.
26:47
But then accept the fact that you're not allowing that person to have their
26:50
own emotional experience and you're not allowing them to truly know you of what
26:55
you're thinking or how you're feeling.
26:56
Fourth, genuine intimacy requires the capacity to hold incompatible truths.
27:01
Sarah needs certainty. Mark can't provide absolute certainty.
27:04
Both of those things can be true and they can stay in the relationship.
27:07
Whole object relations.
27:08
I can view myself. I can be my partner in the relationship all as an entire entity.
27:13
So I can love things about it and I can be frustrated about things about it
27:17
and we can still have a relationship.
27:19
And last, taking ownership of your patterns doesn't require reciprocation.
27:24
When Sarah acknowledged how her anxiety contributed their dynamic,
27:27
she wasn't doing it to get Mark to reciprocate.
27:30
She was doing it because it was true. It was how she felt. It was what she was
27:35
recognizing. And that actually freed both of them.
27:38
Mark and Sarah didn't leave that session with their problem solved.
27:41
They're still working on rebuilding trust.
27:42
And I thought it would be really funny to do an epilogue now and say,
27:45
you know, a few weeks later, went right back to the same old patterns.
27:47
Now they're not doing so great. But that's not necessarily the case.
27:50
But Sarah still has days where she's triggered by anything financial.
27:53
And Mark still has moments where he wants to hide his stress instead of sharing
27:56
it. But they have something they didn't have before.
27:59
Honesty or the framework to get there too. And not the kind of honesty that's
28:03
designed to manage emotions, but the kind that creates genuine connection,
28:06
even if it's uncomfortable at times.
28:08
They're learning to stay present with each other through the discomfort instead
28:11
of trying to eliminate the discomfort.
28:12
They're learning that I can't guarantee that is sometimes more loving than I
28:16
promise. And they're learning that their job isn't to make each other okay,
28:20
it's to stay connected while each of them does their own work of becoming okay.
28:26
I've got a bonus section that I think you'll enjoy, but before I get to that,
28:30
a little reflection from what I've shared,
28:32
I would love to ask some questions and have you consider these in your own relationship
28:38
and reach out to me and let me know your answers. And I want to cover those on an upcoming episode.
28:42
Where are you managing your partner's emotions instead of speaking your truth?
28:45
Give me your examples. And what patterns do you see in yourself,
28:48
but you continue to defend?
28:50
And what truth about your relationship feels impossible to accept?
28:55
And then how might honesty, even uncomfortable honesty, create more genuine
28:59
intimacy than emotional management ever could? Or do you, yeah, but that?
29:02
Is it hard to even understand what that could look like? And that's okay.
29:07
And can you identify times when your engagement in the relationship shifts based
29:10
on your hope levels, how you're feeling that day, whether you had a bad ice cream sundae or not?
29:15
When you receive an apology or an acknowledgement that you've asked for,
29:18
does it sometimes still leave you feeling unsatisfied?
29:20
And if so, that's okay. Kind of normal. because that's, oh, I think this is
29:24
what I would need to feel better.
29:25
But that person's now finally able to try and give that to you and it may not feel good.
29:31
And then you have to have the courage to say, oh man, I thought that that would
29:33
clear everything up. It didn't though. Check that out.
29:36
The goal isn't to eliminate relationship discomfort.
29:40
The goal is to increase your capacity to stay connected to yourself and your
29:43
partner while navigating that discomfort because that's where real intimacy lives.
29:48
Not in the absence of problems, but in the presence of honesty.
29:52
Okay, so before we wrap up today, I do want to give you a bonus section because
29:55
I got such incredible feedback from the two-part series I did on the origin
29:59
stories of the anxious and avoidant attached.
30:02
And especially around the concept of co-regulation and relationships that I
30:05
thought, okay, you know what?
30:06
Let me give you a little more because I want to show you theoretically how Mark
30:10
and Sarah could have gotten to this breakthrough point.
30:13
And if you are coming off of those last two episodes, the role of Jack in the
30:21
two-part episode will be played by Mark and the role of Jill will be played by Sarah.
30:26
Because I really think understanding co-regulation helps explain why the progress
30:30
that they made in couples therapy was so significant. So let's start with where
30:35
this concept comes from.
30:36
The term co-regulation was really brought
30:38
in the mainstream by a couple of researchers, a guy named Ed Tronick.
30:43
And some of his colleagues in the late 1980s and early 1990s,
30:46
which shows my age because I want to say, so it wasn't that long ago because
30:49
that's when I was getting out of high school.
30:51
But if we're talking about the foundational work, we go all the way back to
30:54
Mary Ainsworth and her strange situation experiments back in the 1970s.
30:58
And then you've got John Bowlby and his work with attachment theory back in
31:02
the fifties and the sixties.
31:04
But what's fascinating, the specific mechanics of co-regulation,
31:08
the moment to moment dance of this emotional attunement between parent and child
31:12
really came into focus through Ed Tronick's work.
31:16
He did this famous experiment called the still face experiment.
31:19
And if you've never seen the video, I kind of recommend that you go look it
31:23
up on YouTube. It's fascinating, but it's also heartbreaking.
31:25
It's one of those where I don't know if it would be something that people would
31:29
do today. So here's what happens. A mom is playing with her baby.
31:32
Let's say the baby's six months old and the mom is engaged and smiling and talking
31:36
and responding to the baby's coos and movements and the baby's happy and engaged
31:40
and reaching out and everything looks great.
31:43
Until. But then the researcher asked the mom to turn away briefly and then turn
31:48
back with a completely neutral expressionless face.
31:50
And I don't think I could do it without laughing, first of all.
31:53
But she turns back, no smiling, no talking, no responding, just a blank face looking at the baby.
32:00
And then if you find the video, watch what happens. The baby immediately tries
32:03
to get the mom to re-engage and the baby smiles bigger and coos louder and reaches out.
32:08
And when that doesn't work, the baby starts to get distressed.
32:11
And so they might start crying and arching their back and looking away and then
32:15
looking back to check and see if mom's face has changed.
32:18
And what you're watching is the baby trying to desperately co-regulate.
32:22
The baby's nervous system is dysregulated, meaning it's in distress.
32:25
And the baby is doing everything it knows how to do to get the mom to help regulate those emotions.
32:31
And when the mom is finally allowed to re-engage, when her face lights up again,
32:35
when she responds, the baby kind of needs a moment.
32:38
There's a brief period where the baby's almost suspicious. check in to make
32:41
sure if it's real and then relief and the baby settles and the nervous system
32:46
regulates and connection is restored.
32:48
So here's what co-regulation is. It's this process by which one person's regulated
32:53
nervous system helps regulate another person's dysregulated nervous system.
32:57
So when we're talking about in infancy and in childhood, this happens through
33:01
what researchers call serve and return.
33:04
I'm thinking tennis or maybe more applicable now, pickleball,
33:08
the baby cries, there's a serve, and the caregiver responds with soothing. There's a return.
33:12
The baby's system begins to calm. The cycle repeats thousands and thousands of times.
33:16
And when this works consistently, when the caregiver is attuned and responsive
33:20
most of the time, the child's nervous system learns something crucial.
33:23
When I'm dysregulated, connection helps.
33:26
Other people can help me feel safe and my emotions are manageable and,
33:29
Here's the key, and this is where it connects to Mark and Sarah's story.
33:33
The child is also learning to self-regulate by internalizing these co-regulation experiences.
33:38
It's like the child's nervous system is learning the rhythm,
33:40
the pattern, the dance, the pathway that goes from dysregulation back to regulation.
33:46
But let's talk about when co-regulation fails.
33:49
If you remember from this episode before, and you can reach out,
33:53
I've got a cheat sheet, contact me through my website.
33:56
But I talk about Mark's childhood.
33:59
Well, it's Jack's childhood. So the role of Jack in this previous episode is
34:03
now being played by Mark, but he had a critical abusive dad and an emotionally withdrawn mom.
34:08
Think about what that meant for co-regulation. When Mark was distressed as a
34:12
child, when his nervous system was dysregulated, what happened?
34:15
If he showed his distress to his dad, he got criticized or dismissed.
34:19
Man up, stop being weak. His dad's response did not regulate Mark's nervous system.
34:24
It actually dysregulated it further and it added shame and fear on top of whatever
34:28
Mark was already feeling.
34:30
If he showed his distress to his mom, she withdrew. She was not equipped to
34:34
handle his emotions because she could handle her own.
34:36
And her withdrawal communicated, hey, your emotions are too much and I cannot help you with this.
34:41
So Mark's nervous system learned something devastating in childhood.
34:44
When I'm dysregulated, connection makes it worse.
34:46
Other people are either dangerous or unavailable and I have to handle my emotions
34:51
all by myself. And this is why Mark developed an avoidant attachment style,
34:55
not a character flaw. It was an adaptation.
34:57
His nervous system learned that the safest strategy was self-regulation through
35:02
disconnection, sitting this one out, shutting down the emotions,
35:06
withdrawing from people, handling everything alone.
35:08
And then look over at Sarah and here's her origin story when co-regulation is unpredictable.
35:15
She had an anxious, depressed mom. So when Sarah was distressed,
35:18
when her nervous system needed co-regulation, sometimes her mom was responsive.
35:22
Sometimes she wasn't. Sometimes Sarah's distress would cause her mom to completely fall apart.
35:25
And now Sarah, as a kid, was managing her mom's dysregulation on top of her own.
35:31
And this is inconsistent caregiving. And it's incredibly confusing for a child's
35:35
development and their little developing nervous system.
35:38
So Sarah's nervous system learned connection.
35:40
Actually, it's unstable. And sometimes it helps. Sometimes it doesn't.
35:43
Sometimes it makes things worse. And I can't predict which. I don't know which
35:47
version of people are going to show up for me. So I have to stay vigilant.
35:51
I have to work really hard to keep people engaged because they may disappear at any moment.
35:57
And this is why Sarah developed an anxious attachment style.
35:59
Her nervous system learned that the only strategy was hypervigilance and pursuit.
36:04
Keep people close, monitor their emotional state, constantly try harder when
36:08
connection feels threatened.
36:09
Keep doing, you're a human doing, not a human being.
36:12
So now you got the anxious avoidant trap. Here's where it gets so fascinating.
36:16
When Mark and Sarah came together as adults, their nervous systems were actually
36:20
playing out these childhood co-regulation patterns.
36:22
When Sarah was dysregulated, when she discovered the financial betrayal and
36:26
her nervous system went into threat mode, what did she need?
36:28
She needed co-regulation.
36:30
She needed Mark's regulated nervous system to help calm hers.
36:33
She needed him to stay present and attuned and connected while she processed
36:38
the enormous stress that she was experiencing. But what happened?
36:41
Mark withdrew because his nervous system learned that other people's dysregulation
36:44
is really scary and dangerous.
36:46
So when Sarah showed her distress, Mark's system said, threat,
36:49
protect yourself, disconnect.
36:51
And when Mark withdrew, what happened to Sarah? Her dysregulation intensified
36:55
because her nervous system learned that withdrawal means abandonment.
36:59
Her system said connection is disappearing.
37:01
Get it, pursue it, go after it, get him to engage however you can.
37:06
So Sarah pursued harder, which made Mark withdraw further, which made Sarah
37:10
pursue harder and neither of them could co-regulate.
37:13
They were stuck in a pattern where each person's attempt to regulate their own
37:17
nervous system was dysregulating the other person's nervous system.
37:21
This is the anxious avoidant trap in neurobiological terms.
37:24
And it's not about bad communication or different personalities.
37:27
It's about two nervous systems that learn incompatible strategies for regulation.
37:31
Now they're triggering each other's deepest wounds.
37:34
So what changed in that session where Mark and Sarah had their breakthrough
37:37
and what made it different is where the co-regulation piece started to show up.
37:42
First, they both started staying present with their own dysregulation instead
37:47
of immediately trying to get rid of it, stuff it, bring it up in an immature way.
37:50
When Sarah was distressed about not feeling safe, instead of immediately pursuing
37:55
Mark to make her feel better, she stayed with her own discomfort.
37:57
She said, I need certainty and you can't give it to me.
38:01
She acknowledged her dysregulation without demanding Mark fix it.
38:04
And when Mark felt the pressure of Sarah's need for certainty,
38:08
instead of immediately withdrawing or giving a calculated answer to make her
38:12
go away, he stayed present and he said, I can't promise perfection.
38:16
And saying, if I could, it would be another lie. So he stayed in connection
38:20
even while setting a boundary.
38:21
And this is what adult co-regulation looks like. And it's different from childhood co-regulation.
38:26
In childhood, the caregiver's job is to regulate the child's nervous system
38:29
because the child can't do it alone yet.
38:31
The child is dependent on external regulation. But in adult relationships,
38:35
co-regulation is about staying in connection while each person does their own
38:39
work of self-regulation.
38:40
It's about being present to each other's emotional experience without trying
38:44
to manage it or without being consumed by it, without shutting down.
38:47
And this is where it gets to be pretty fun to be a therapist because I think
38:50
it's important and why people need a third party, why they need a good couples therapist.
38:56
Because as a therapist, part of what I was doing was providing a regulated nervous
39:00
system that both of them could latch onto for a little bit.
39:03
When Sarah was expressing her pain and Mark was starting to shut down,
39:06
it's my job to stay calm and curious.
39:09
And I don't necessarily get activated by Sarah's intensity or frustrated by
39:13
Mark's withdrawal. I noticed those things. I'm a.
39:17
My regulated state was helping create, we'll call it a container,
39:21
where both of them could feel safe enough to stay in the discomfort.
39:24
This is why therapy can be so powerful for individuals and mainly for couples.
39:29
Not mainly, and especially for couples.
39:31
It's not just about learning skills or insights or my beloved four pillars of
39:35
a connected conversation of how to communicate.
39:37
It's about experiencing co-regulation in a new way with a third person's regulated
39:41
nervous system helping both partners stay present when their own systems are
39:45
screaming at them to fight, flee, or freeze.
39:48
So in that, what I'm going to call breakthrough session, here's what happened
39:51
at the nervous system level.
39:53
Sarah's anxious attachment system was signaling danger. He's not giving you
39:56
what you need. Pursue harder.
39:58
But instead of automatically following that impulse, Sarah was able to observe it.
40:02
She could feel the urge to pursue without being completely controlled by it.
40:05
She could say, I want you to promise you'll never do it again while also recognizing.
40:09
And I'm realizing that nothing you say is actually going to make me feel completely safe. That was huge.
40:15
That is her nervous system beginning to learn that she can tolerate dysregulation
40:19
without immediately trying to eliminate it through pursuit and control.
40:22
And Mark's avoidant attachment system was saying, danger, she needs too much.
40:26
And all I'm trying to do now is express myself and she's telling me I'm wrong.
40:31
She's criticizing me. So withdraw, protect yourself.
40:34
But instead of automatically disconnecting, Mark was able to stay present.
40:37
He could feel the urge to shut down or to give a calculated answer without following
40:41
it. He could say, I can't guarantee perfect behavior and stay in the conversation,
40:45
maintain eye contact, remain emotionally available. And that again is huge.
40:50
This is his nervous system beginning to learn that he can stay in connection,
40:54
even when somebody is distressed, even when there's pressure,
40:57
even when it's uncomfortable.
40:59
What they were discovering together, and this is the path forward for them,
41:03
is a new way to co-regulate that respects both people's nervous system patterns
41:06
while slowly teaching those systems something different.
41:09
Sarah's learning, I can feel anxious and uncertain without needing Mark to immediately
41:13
fix it. And I can express it. And I can tolerate not knowing.
41:16
My dysregulation won't destroy me. And pursuing harder doesn't actually help.
41:20
But Mark is also learning, I can stay present with Sarah's distress without
41:24
being consumed by it or responsible for fixing it and without shutting down.
41:28
Her emotions aren't a threat to me. I can set a boundary or I can be honest
41:32
without disconnecting. And here's what's so beautiful.
41:35
As each of them learns to regulate their own nervous systems more effectively,
41:39
they actually become better at co-regulating with each other.
41:43
That's where I go back to the concepts around emotionally focused therapy.
41:46
We're designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human.
41:49
This is what we're talking about. When Sarah is less desperately pursuing,
41:52
Mark's nervous system doesn't get as triggered.
41:54
When Mark stays more present and engaged, Sarah's nervous system doesn't go into panic mode.
41:58
They're slowly interrupting the old dance and they're learning a new one.
42:01
And there's neuroscience behind why this works because our nervous systems are plastic.
42:06
Neuroplasticity, they can change and adapt throughout our lives,
42:08
but they can also dig in deeper and deeper rutted neuropathways if we aren't
42:14
willing to do something different, to self-confront, to admit that there are things we don't know.
42:18
Our nervous systems adapt throughout our lives.
42:21
Every time Mark stays present when his instinct is to withdraw,
42:24
he's creating new neural pathways.
42:25
Every time Sarah tolerates uncertainty without pursuing, she's creating new neural pathways.
42:30
And it's like they're building new highways in their brains,
42:32
new routes from dysregulation to regulation that don't depend on the old childhood strategies.
42:36
And the research is actually really clear. Secure attachment can be learned.
42:40
You're not stuck with the attachment style you developed in childhood.
42:43
Through relationships, Whether that's therapy, a secure romantic partner,
42:47
close friendships, or your own conscious effort and practice,
42:50
you can rewire your nervous system for a secure connection. But it takes time.
42:54
It takes thousands of repetitions. It takes being willing to feel uncomfortable
42:58
while your nervous system learns something new.
43:00
Mark and Sarah are in the early stages of this process, but that breakthrough
43:04
session showed me they are capable of it.
43:06
So why is understanding co-regulation so significant for Mark and Sarah and
43:10
the healing process? Because first, it helps them depersonalize their pattern.
43:14
When Sarah understands Mark's withdrawal isn't about her being too much,
43:17
it's about his nervous system's learned strategy for handling threat,
43:20
she can have more compassion for him even while holding him accountable for his behavior.
43:24
And when Mark understands that Sarah's pursuit isn't about her being controlling,
43:27
it's about her nervous system's learned strategy for trying to secure connection,
43:31
he can have more compassion for her even while setting boundaries about what
43:35
he realistically can or can't provide.
43:37
And second, it gives them a framework for understanding what's actually happening in the conflict.
43:41
They're not just bad at communication. They love each other.
43:44
They care about each other, but they're two nervous systems with different regulation
43:47
strategies trying to coordinate.
43:49
That's a very different problem and it requires a different solution.
43:52
And then third, it shows that the path forward, they can't just decide to change
43:56
their patterns through willpower alone.
43:58
They need to slowly, deliberately, intentionally create new experiences of co-regulation
44:03
that teach their nervous system something different.
44:05
And they need to be practicing when they're not together and when they're outside
44:08
of sessions. They can't just show up and do it and then get it kind of right
44:12
and then go about the week.
44:15
They need to practice and read and do and stay present with discomfort.
44:19
They have to practice reaching for connection in new ways. And ideally, it's both of them.
44:23
And fourth, and this is really important, it helps them understand why the breakthrough
44:27
felt so significant. In that session, They weren't just communicating better.
44:30
They were actually experiencing a new emotional reaction, a new form of co-regulation.
44:36
They were showing their nervous systems. Look, we can both be dysregulated and
44:40
we can actually still stay in connection.
44:41
We can hold incompatible truths
44:43
and not collapse. We can be honest without destroying the relationship.
44:46
And what that eventually leads to is we can express our needs and the other
44:50
person can say, man, I don't know.
44:52
I don't know why that's so hard for me to try to do, but I care about you. So I want to try.
44:57
I want to lean in. And that's powerful.
44:59
That's nervous system level learning. That's the foundation of secure attachment
45:02
that's being built in real time.
45:05
So that's the piece I wanted to add about co-regulation and understanding this
45:08
concept. I think it really helps explain why the anxious and avoidant partners
45:11
struggle so much together and why the path forward requires more than just better
45:15
communication. And you can't just kick the can down the road.
45:17
You can't just say I'm working on it and not be doing anything.
45:20
I'm sorry, but you can't.
45:22
It requires nervous system level healing and it really, you both need to be doing it.
45:27
Mark and Sarah are learning to co-regulate as adults, which means staying present
45:30
to each other's emotional experience while each taking responsibility for their
45:34
own regulation, their own healing, their own self-confrontation,
45:38
their own why am I not able to show up for my partner?
45:41
And it means Sarah's learning that she can survive uncertainty without getting
45:44
immediate reassurance.
45:45
And Mark's learning that he can stay connected even when things are intense.
45:48
This is the work and it's not fast and it's not easy, but it is possible.
45:53
And that's what I see as a couples therapist. It can work.
45:56
If it's not, it's often because one of the parties is not really doing the work.
46:03
If I'm being honest and understanding, hopefully the neuroscience and the attachment
46:06
theory behind it makes it a little less mysterious and a little more hopeful.
46:10
Okay, everybody, that is it for today's episode, the bonus section and all.
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I hope it resonated with you. And if it did share it with somebody who might benefit.
46:17
And if you're working through any kind of betrayal in your own relationship,
46:20
financial or otherwise, or if you're recognizing these anxious and avoidant
46:23
patterns in yourself, please know healing is possible, but it's not always linear.
46:27
It's not always comfortable, but it's possible. And as always,
46:30
you can find more resources at my website, tonyoverbay.com or go to my Instagram
46:36
at virtual.couch or TikTok at virtual couch or my sub stack really at no sub
46:41
stack.com slash the virtual couch.
46:45
You are interested in working with me, you can reach out through the website.
46:48
There are times where I will have some space and I will be honest,
46:52
I'm becoming an old man. I'm becoming a little more picky.
46:54
I want people that are up for the work and they're familiar with my content
46:57
and hopefully it resonates and we can get somewhere pretty quickly.
47:01
Thanks for spending the time with me. Thanks for sticking around for the bonus
47:04
section. I know it was a long one, but I really wanted to give you the full
47:06
picture of how co-regulation works and why it matters so much in healing attachment wounds.
47:10
Until next time, I hope you take care of yourselves and each
47:14
other and i am grateful to be putting
47:17
out episode 462 of this there's 140 something waking up the narcissism podcast
47:23
it's still phenomenal that i get to do this and i'm grateful for your support
47:26
taking us out per usual the wonderful the talented aurora florence with her
47:30
song it's wonderful because honestly it can be have a great week everybody we'll
47:34
see you next time on the virtual.