Latest / Logosofia no Dia a Dia / When Parents Always Side Against You
Transcript
- [Prompt] custom: I grew up with a challenging parental figure who was, to put it generously, unsupportive. Maybe she | Hosts: corn, herman [Response] Corn: We have a special prompt today. Tim Shortnap sent us this one — and honestly, it's the kind of thing that a lot of people experience but almost nobody talks about openly. Tim grew up with a parent who, every time he shared a struggle, would reflexively take the other person's side. Boss is angry? Boss must be right. Conflict with a teacher? Teacher's got a point. And this wasn't balanced perspective-taking — it was a pattern, corrosive and consistent, dressed up as tough love. He's asking us to unpack why some parents do this, and just as importantly, how to avoid becoming that parent yourself. Herman: This one lands hard. Because the cultural script we all know is the parent who thinks their kid can do no wrong — the one storming into the principal's office demanding to know why little Timmy got a B plus. But Tim's describing the precise opposite. The parent who defaults to "you're the problem" before the sentence is even finished. Corn: The damage from that isn't smaller than the helicopter version. It's just quieter. You don't get the dramatic confrontation. You get the slow erosion — learning, over years, that sharing a problem means getting cross-examined about why you probably caused it. Herman: What makes this timely is that we're seeing a significant rise in adult children choosing to go no-contact with parents. The research on estrangement has really accelerated, and one of the recurring themes isn't big explosive incidents. It's this exact pattern. The accumulated weight of never being seen, never being validated, always being the one who's somehow at fault. Corn: The question isn't just "why are some parents like this." It's also: what's actually happening psychologically when a parent hears their child's distress and their first instinct is to align with the person causing it? Because that's not normal objectivity. That's something else entirely. Herman: Right — and we need to name that distinction upfront. There's a difference between a parent saying "let me help you see the other side here" and a parent saying "you are wrong, they are right, end of discussion." The first one is parenting. The second one is something closer to a reflex — and it's not about fairness, it's about the parent's own psychology. Corn: Tim's read on his own situation is that this parent likely has narcissistic traits, and that the "tough love" framing is a rationalization for something that's actually about emotional incapacity. What I find striking is how he's chosen to handle it — not by cutting her off, but by trying to understand the mechanism. He says understanding is itself a form of therapy, because it makes the mystery less of a mystery, even if it doesn't minimize the pain. Herman: That's a remarkably mature approach. And it tracks with what we know about cognitive reframing — naming a pattern reduces its power over you. But it also raises a question: if you understand why the parent does this, does that actually change anything? Or does it just make the dynamic more bearable for you while leaving it intact? Corn: That's the tension at the heart of this. Understanding as therapy versus understanding as a reason to stay in something harmful. But before we get to what you do about it, we need to understand what's actually driving it. So walk me through the psychology here. What's happening in the parent's head when they hear "my boss was unfair to me" and their immediate response is "well, your boss probably had a reason"? Herman: There are a few mechanisms, and they overlap. The first one — and this is central to the narcissistic parent dynamic — is that these parents don't fully see their children as separate individuals. The child is an extension of the self. So when the child faces criticism from an outside authority, the parent experiences it as criticism of themselves. And the fastest way to resolve that threat isn't to defend the child — it's to align with the critic, because that protects the parent's standing with the outside world. Corn: It's not "my child is being mistreated." It's "someone is criticizing something connected to me, and I need to distance myself from the thing being criticized. Herman: And that's where triangulation comes in — what Psychology Today's analysis identified as the narcissistic parent's favorite weapon. Triangulation is when the parent brings in a third party — the boss, the teacher, the sibling — to validate their position and destabilize the child's sense of reality. The clinical example was a mother who calls her daughter's teacher to "get the real story" before even speaking to her daughter. The message is: your account isn't trustworthy. The outside authority is the real source of truth. Corn: Which teaches the child something devastating — that their own experience isn't a reliable source of information. You learn to doubt your own read on situations before you even finish forming one. Herman: That's the knock-on effect we should trace later, because it shapes adult relationships in really specific ways. But there's another mechanism here that's less about narcissism per se and more about emotional regulation. These parents often lack the capacity to hold their child's emotional distress. Sitting with someone else's pain requires a kind of emotional steadiness they don't have. So siding against the child becomes a shortcut. It shuts down the uncomfortable conversation. If I immediately tell you why you're wrong, I don't have to sit with how you're feeling. Corn: That's grim. The parent isn't even necessarily being malicious — they're being avoidant. The discomfort of the child's distress is so intolerable that they'll sacrifice the child's sense of being heard just to make the feeling stop. Herman: That's where the "tough love" rationalization does its work. The parent reframes this avoidance as character-building. "I'm preparing you for the real world." "You need to hear the hard truths." But the actual effect isn't resilience. It's the erosion of self-trust. The child learns that sharing a struggle doesn't lead to support — it leads to being cross-examined, invalidated, and ultimately blamed. So they stop sharing. Corn: Tim says it outright — sharing was always a mistake. He learned that pattern and internalized it. And once you've internalized "sharing problems makes things worse," you don't just apply that to the parent. You apply it everywhere. Herman: Which brings us to something Tim mentioned that I think is the most quietly devastating part of this. He said what's lacking isn't the parent always taking his side — it's the tact to know when it's better to say nothing at all. Silence, in this context, isn't neglect. It's actually a form of support. The parent who can sit with their child's distress without immediately trying to fix it, analyze it, or assign blame — that parent is doing something profound. Corn: The parent who can't do that — who has to fill the silence with judgment — is communicating something specific. They're saying "your distress makes me uncomfortable, and I need to resolve my discomfort by making this your fault." The child's actual experience never gets the floor. Herman: There's solid research backing this up. Studies on active listening show that unsolicited advice, even when well-intentioned, damages trust more than silence would. Jumping in with analysis or correction before the person has finished describing what happened signals that you're not actually listening. You're waiting for your turn to diagnose. Corn: In Tim's case, the diagnosis was always the same: you're the problem. So let's map out what we're actually unpacking here. We've got the psychological mechanisms — the narcissistic extension-of-self, the triangulation, the emotional regulation deficits. We've got the "tough love" rationalization that masks all of it. And then we've got the long-term effects on the child — what happens to a person's sense of self when they grow up learning that their problems are always, somehow, their fault. Herman: Then the practical layer. Because Tim asked two questions, and the second one is just as important: how do you avoid becoming this parent yourself? What are the concrete strategies for breaking the cycle? Corn: We'll trace this from the psychology to the damage to the repair. And along the way we'll talk about what understanding can and can't do — because Tim's approach of using understanding as therapy is powerful, but it also has limits. Understanding why someone hurts you doesn't obligate you to keep standing in the line of fire. Herman: Let's get precise about what this pattern actually is, because I think a lot of people experience it without having language for it. The core phenomenon is a parent who consistently sides with outsiders — bosses, teachers, romantic partners, even strangers — against their own child. And the key word there is "consistently." This isn't the occasional "well, let's think about what your teacher might have been feeling." This is a default orientation. Corn: The parent as defense attorney for everyone except their own kid. Which is a strange way to run a family, when you say it out loud. Herman: And what makes it confusing for the child — and later for the adult trying to make sense of it — is that it can look, from the outside, like the parent is just being fair-minded. But the distinction between healthy objectivity and this pattern is pretty clear once you know what to look for. Corn: Walk me through that line. Where's the boundary between "let me help you see the other perspective" and "I am reflexively positioning myself against you"? Herman: A healthy parent who's trying to teach perspective-taking does a few things. They hear the child out first — fully. They validate the emotional experience before they introduce any nuance. And when they do say "here's what the other person might have been thinking," it's offered as additional information, not as a verdict. The child still gets to have their own take. Corn: Whereas the pattern Tim's describing is: the verdict comes first, and the child's experience never even gets admitted as evidence. Herman: The parent who does this doesn't say "that sounds really hard — and also, let's think about what your boss might have been dealing with." They skip straight to "your boss has the right to be angry with you." The child's distress isn't acknowledged at all. It's treated as irrelevant, or worse, as proof that the child is being oversensitive. Corn: Tim's read on this — which I think is probably correct — is that the parent in question has narcissistic traits, and the "tough love" framing is a cover story. The actual mechanism isn't about building character. It's about something the parent needs. Herman: That's exactly what the clinical literature points to. The "tough love" rationalization is almost perfect as a defense mechanism because it's hard to argue against. If you push back, you're proving you're too soft to handle hard truths. If you get upset, you're demonstrating exactly why you need toughening up. It's a closed loop. Corn: The parent gets to be cruel while feeling virtuous about it. That's the part that makes my fur stand up. It's not just the siding-against — it's the moral righteousness that comes with it. "I'm doing this for your own good. Herman: That's where the narcissism piece becomes important. A parent with narcissistic traits isn't really interested in what's good for the child. They're interested in what stabilizes their own sense of self. The "tough love" story lets them reframe their emotional incapacity as wisdom. They're not failing to support you — they're teaching you. Corn: The question hanging over all of this is: what are we actually looking at here? Is this tough love that's just badly delivered? Or is it something darker that's been dressed up in tough love clothing? Herman: I'd argue it's the second one. Tough love, when it's genuine, comes from a place of investment. The parent is willing to be uncomfortable because they genuinely believe it'll help the child grow. What Tim's describing doesn't have that quality. It has the quality of a reflex — something the parent does to manage their own internal state, not something they do because they've thought carefully about what the child needs. Corn: That's the mystery we need to unpack. What's actually driving that reflex? Herman: Let's start with the first mechanism, because it's the one that makes sense of everything else. Narcissistic parents don't fully see their children as separate people. The child is an extension of the self — a satellite, not an independent planet. And when that satellite gets criticized by an outside authority, the parent doesn't experience it as "my child is hurting." They experience it as "I am being criticized. Corn: The parent's instinct isn't protective. It's self-protective. Herman: If your boss is angry with you, that means someone is angry at something connected to me. And the fastest way to neutralize that threat isn't to defend you — it's to align with the boss. "Your boss has the right to be angry with you" isn't a parenting judgment. It's a preemptive surrender. The parent is saying: I'm with the critic, not with the criticized, so please don't associate me with the person you're criticizing. Corn: That's a survival reflex dressed up as wisdom. The child hears "I'm teaching you about the world," but what's actually happening is the parent scrambling to protect their own social standing by throwing the kid under the bus. Herman: Tim's example is almost textbook. Sharing a workplace conflict and having the parent immediately side with the boss — without even hearing the full story. That's not perspective-taking. That's the parent locating the nearest authority figure and attaching themselves to it, because that's where the safety is. Corn: Which means the child learns something very specific about their place in the family hierarchy. They're not the person you defend. They're the person you distance yourself from when things get uncomfortable. Herman: That connects directly to the second mechanism — triangulation. Psychology Today's analysis of narcissistic parents identified this as their favorite weapon. The parent brings in a third party to validate their position and destabilize the child's sense of reality. It's not enough for the parent to say "I think you're wrong." They need an external authority to confirm it. Corn: It's not "I disagree with you." It's "your teacher agrees with me, so you're wrong on two fronts now. Herman: The clinical example they gave is a mother who calls her daughter's teacher to "get the real story" before even speaking to her daughter. The message is devastating: your account of your own experience isn't trustworthy. I need to check with an outside source before I'll even consider what you're telling me. Corn: That's not about fact-finding. If you wanted to understand what happened, you'd start with your kid. Calling the teacher first is a statement about whose version of reality you've already decided to trust. Herman: And the triangulation doesn't have to involve an actual phone call. It can be as simple as "well, your brother never had this problem" or "I was talking to your aunt and she agrees with me." The parent is assembling a coalition. And the child is always on the outside of it. Corn: That's the destabilization part. It's not just "you're wrong." It's "multiple people think you're wrong, and I've gone out of my way to confirm it." At that point, the child isn't just doubting their position in the argument. They're doubting their entire ability to perceive reality accurately. Herman: Which is exactly the point. Triangulation isn't about resolving the conflict. It's about winning it, and winning it in a way that leaves the child less sure of themselves than before. Corn: We've got the extension-of-self thing and the triangulation. But you mentioned a third mechanism that's less about narcissism per se and more about emotional capacity. What's happening there? Herman: This is where the research from the "seven ways narcissistic parents harm their children" analysis comes in. These parents often have profound emotional regulation deficits. They lack the capacity to hold their child's emotional distress. Sitting with someone else's pain — really sitting with it, without rushing to fix it or deflect it — requires a kind of internal steadiness they don't possess. Corn: The child comes to them upset, and the parent's internal experience isn't "my child needs comfort." It's "I need this uncomfortable feeling to stop. Herman: And the fastest way to stop it is to shut down the conversation. Siding against the child accomplishes that instantly. If I tell you why you're wrong, I don't have to sit with how you're feeling. I've converted your emotional distress into a problem I can solve by assigning blame — to you. Corn: That reframes the whole interaction. The parent isn't necessarily thinking "I want to hurt my child." They're thinking "I want this discomfort to end, and blaming you is the quickest exit. Herman: That's what makes it so insidious. It doesn't always look like malice. It looks like impatience, or brusqueness, or a kind of emotional clumsiness. But the cumulative effect on the child is the same as if it were deliberate. You learn that your distress doesn't get met with comfort. It gets met with a door closing. Corn: The "tough love" framing swoops in to make that door-closing sound noble. "I'm not being dismissive — I'm preparing you for the real world. Herman: That's the rationalization that seals the whole thing shut. Because once the parent has framed their emotional incapacity as character-building, the child can't even object without seeming weak. "You're upset that I'm toughening you up? That just proves you need toughening." It's a closed loop. There's no way to argue against it from inside the relationship. Corn: The actual effect isn't resilience. Tim said it outright — the effect was corrosive. You don't learn to handle criticism. You learn to hide your problems entirely, because sharing them has a predictable result: you get blamed for having them. Herman: That's the real damage. Resilience is built when someone holds space for your struggle and helps you work through it. What Tim's describing produces the opposite — hypervigilance. You become an expert at anticipating how sharing will backfire, so you preemptively shut down. You walk into every conflict already arguing the case against yourself, because you've internalized that you're always the one at fault. Corn: The parent as internal prosecutor. You don't need them in the room anymore — you've absorbed their voice and it's running on a loop in your own head. Herman: That internal prosecutor follows you into adulthood. Adults who grew up with this dynamic often develop what I'd call "prosecutor mode." They walk into every conflict preemptively arguing the case against themselves, because experience has taught them that the other person will side against them anyway. Might as well get there first. Corn: You become your own cross-examiner before anyone else gets the chance. You've internalized the parent's voice so thoroughly that you're doing their job for them. Herman: It shows up in relationships in really specific ways. You over-explain. You lead with self-criticism. You anticipate rejection and try to neutralize it by agreeing with it in advance. It's exhausting for the person doing it, and it's confusing for partners and friends who don't understand why every small disagreement turns into a full legal defense. Corn: The partner says "hey, you forgot to take out the trash" and suddenly they're getting a ten-minute presentation on your childhood and your character flaws and why you understand completely if they want to leave you. Herman: And the tragedy is that this pattern was adaptive once. In the original family system, preemptive self-blame was a survival strategy. If you could get to the verdict before the parent did, you might avoid the worst of it. But what was adaptive in childhood becomes corrosive in adulthood. You're defending yourself against attacks that aren't coming. Corn: Which brings us to something Tim said that I think is important. His approach to dealing with this hasn't been to cut the parent off. It's been to understand the mechanism. He describes understanding as a form of therapy — it makes the mystery less of a mystery, even though it doesn't minimize the pain. Herman: That aligns with what we know about cognitive reframing. Naming the pattern reduces its power. Once you can say "this isn't about me — this is her emotional regulation deficit playing out in real time," the interaction becomes less disorienting. You're no longer standing there thinking "what did I do wrong?" You're observing a mechanism. Corn: The parent becomes less of an oracle and more of a predictable system. And predictable systems, even harmful ones, are easier to navigate than chaos. Herman: There's a limit to that, and we should name it. Understanding why someone hurts you doesn't obligate you to keep standing in the line of fire. Tim's approach is powerful — but it works partly because he's also set boundaries around how much he shares with this parent. He said sharing was always a mistake, which suggests he's learned to stop doing it. Corn: The understanding helps you stop hoping for a different outcome. But it doesn't change the outcome. If the parent is unwilling to acknowledge the pattern, understanding may help the child heal, but it won't change the relationship dynamic. Herman: That's where the practical question comes in. Tim asked how to avoid becoming this parent yourself. And I think there are concrete strategies worth naming. Corn: Let's hear them. Herman: The first one comes straight out of family therapy research. It's something I'd call "holding both truths." Your child can be wrong about the facts of a situation and still deserve your support. Those two things aren't contradictory. You can say "I think you might be misreading what your friend intended" while also saying "and I can see why you'd feel hurt, and I'm here with you in that. Corn: The parent doesn't have to choose between honesty and empathy. They can do both, but the empathy has to come first. If you skip straight to the correction, you've lost the child before you've even started. Herman: The second strategy is something family therapists call the twenty-four-hour rule for non-urgent situations. When your child shares a conflict, delay your response. Not because you're ignoring them — you acknowledge what they've said. But you give yourself time before you offer any analysis or judgment. Because the reflex to side against the child is often immediate, and it's driven by your own discomfort. A day's space lets that reflex cool off. Herman: Ask "do you want empathy or advice?" before you respond. It's such a simple question, but it fundamentally changes the dynamic. It communicates that you're not going to assume what they need. And it gives the child agency in the conversation — which is exactly what the siding-against pattern takes away. Corn: That question also forces the parent to pause and recognize that their instinct to problem-solve might not be what the moment calls for. Sometimes the child doesn't need a solution. They need someone to sit with them in the mess. Herman: Which brings us to what Tim identified as the core missing piece — the tact of silence. Sometimes the most supportive thing a parent can say is nothing at all. The research on active listening backs this up pretty decisively. Unsolicited advice, even when well-intentioned, damages trust more than silence would. Because jumping in with analysis signals that you're uncomfortable with their distress and you're trying to resolve it for your own sake. Corn: The parent who can sit with their child's pain without rushing to fix it is doing something rare. They're communicating "your feelings aren't a problem I need to solve. They're something I'm willing to be present for. Herman: That's the opposite of the pattern Tim described. His parent couldn't tolerate his distress, so she shut it down by siding against him. The silence we're talking about isn't neglectful silence — it's the silence of someone who's actually listening. Corn: Let's make this concrete. If you're the adult child in this dynamic, there's a script worth practicing: "I need you to hear me before you analyze me." You're not asking the parent to agree with you. You're asking them to do the one thing they've never been able to do — hold space before jumping to judgment. Herman: The parent's response to that request tells you everything you need to know. If they can hear it and adjust, even a little, there's something to work with. If they can't — if they deflect, or get defensive, or turn it back on you — then you have your answer. The pattern isn't going to change because you found the right words. Corn: That's the hard part. A lot of people in Tim's position spend years searching for the perfect way to phrase things, as if the problem is that they just haven't explained it clearly enough. But if the parent's behavior is driven by their own emotional regulation deficits, no amount of careful wording on your part is going to fix that. At a certain point, the work shifts from "how do I get them to hear me" to "how do I adjust my expectations so I stop hoping for something they can't give. Herman: That adjustment is a form of grief, honestly. You're not just accepting that the parent is limited. You're grieving the parent you needed and didn't get. Tim said understanding is therapeutic, and it is — but I think step two of that therapy is letting yourself mourn. That grief isn't a sign that you're stuck. It's the work of healing. Corn: That's a crucial point, and it's one that gets missed in a lot of the self-help framing around this. People want to jump straight to forgiveness, or to strategies, or to "five ways to fix your relationship with your difficult parent." But if you skip the grief, you're building on a foundation that hasn't been acknowledged. You needed someone who could hold your distress without making it about them. You didn't get that. That's a real loss, and it deserves to be named. Herman: Naming it doesn't mean you're blaming the parent or wallowing. It means you're being honest about what happened so you can stop carrying the hope that it might unhappen. Corn: Now if you're on the other side of this — if you're a parent, or you plan to be — there's a framework I've found useful that builds on what we said about the empathy-first approach. Think of it as three doors. Door A is empathy. Door B is silent presence. Door C is problem-solving. When your child comes to you with a struggle, your job is to check Door A and Door B before you even touch Door C. Herman: The parent who always goes straight for Door C — the fixer, the analyzer, the "here's what you should have done" parent — is the parent who ends up siding against their own kid without even realizing that's what they're doing. Corn: Door C isn't bad. Problem-solving has its place. But it only works after the child feels heard. If you skip to it, you're not solving their problem — you're solving your own discomfort with their distress. And that's the mechanism we've been tracing this whole time. Herman: The single question that can break the reflexive siding-against pattern is some version of "do you want me to listen, help, or just sit with you?" It sounds almost too simple. But what it does is force the parent to pause and ask what's actually needed, instead of assuming. And it gives the child permission to say "I just need you to hear me" — which is something Tim's parent never made space for. Corn: That question also does something subtle but important. It communicates that the child's needs, not the parent's instincts, get to drive the response. For a parent with narcissistic traits, that's difficult. Their whole orientation is that the child exists to serve their emotional needs, not the other way around. Asking "what do you need from me right now" inverts that. Herman: If you can't do that — if you can't ask the question, or you can't honor the answer — that's worth sitting with. It might tell you something about your own emotional capacity that you'd rather not know. Corn: That raises the question I think we've been circling the whole episode. Can a parent with narcissistic traits change? Or is understanding the mechanism the best the child can hope for? Herman: I'm skeptical about the change part. Not because people can't grow — they can. But the pattern we're describing requires the parent to do something that's fundamentally threatening to their psychological defenses. They'd have to acknowledge that what they called tough love was actually emotional incapacity dressed up in virtue. That's not a small adjustment. That's a demolition and rebuild. Corn: The clinical picture backs that up, unfortunately. Narcissistic traits exist on a spectrum, and someone with milder traits who's motivated — maybe because they're facing real consequences, like estrangement — can do meaningful work in therapy. But the parent who's spent decades perfecting the "I'm just being honest with you" defense has built a fortress. They're not likely to tear it down because their adult child found the right words. Herman: That's where the research on intergenerational trauma becomes relevant. We're getting better at mapping how these patterns transmit — how the parent who couldn't hold their child's distress was often themselves a child whose distress was never held. Understanding that lineage doesn't excuse the behavior, but it does clarify what we're up against. These aren't just individual quirks. They're inherited architectures. Corn: The hope — and I think this is where the field is heading — is that as we develop better interventions for parents who actually want to break the cycle, we can catch these patterns earlier. Not when someone's forty and trying to explain to their seventy-year-old mother why they're in therapy. But when they're thirty and holding their own newborn and thinking "I don't want to do what was done to me. Herman: The onus shouldn't always be on the child to do the repair work. That's the thing I want to land. Tim's approach — understanding as therapy — is valid and powerful. But understanding doesn't require staying in a relationship that continues to harm you. Sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do is see the pattern clearly and then step back. Corn: That's the distinction that gets lost in a lot of these conversations. Understanding is for your own healing. It's not a contract that obligates you to keep showing up for more of the same. You can understand why someone is the way they are and still decide the cost of proximity is too high. Herman: Naming that isn't cruelty. It's the same self-protective instinct the parent never extended to you. You're finally giving yourself what they couldn't. Corn: Tim Shortnap, thank you for sending this in. It's the kind of question that sits with you long after the episode ends. Herman: Now: Hilbert's daily fun fact. Hilbert: In the eighteen-tens, a sandalwood trader on the island of Tanna in Vanuatu recorded that locals measured the height of a chief's prestige by how many full-grown coconut palms he could claim — with one particularly revered chief said to possess over four hundred, which by modern agricultural estimates would require roughly thirty-seven acres of continuous grove. Corn: The chief's net worth was basically a coconut portfolio. Herman: I respect it. Corn: This has been My Weird Prompts. If you enjoyed this episode, leave us a review wherever you listen — it helps other people find the show. We'll be back next week.