Latest / Leading Leaders Podcast with J Loren Norris / 4/15/2026 LEADERSHIP ALCHEMY IS A MYTH

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4/15/2026 LEADERSHIP ALCHEMY IS A MYTH · Leading Leaders Podcast with J Loren Norris

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Join us, get away and relax. I cranked on that lawn mower
1:33
until I had blisters between my fingers.
1:35
I couldn't get it to start. Finally I went and got the kid
1:38
that was supposed to be helping me with the yard and I was like
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dude what is wrong with my lawn mower?
1:43
It worked yesterday. I did the backyard yesterday.
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I just need you to finish up the sides in the front.
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And he looks at me so well I just filled it up with fuel.
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I don't know why it won't work. Must be something wrong with
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your lawn mower. I said, well, where's the can
1:55
you used? And then I knew the problem.
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And that's what I want to talk about in this episode of Leading
2:03
Leaders. Stay tuned.
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I'm Jay Lauren Norris with Leading Leaders Podcast.
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You know, it, it doesn't seem like a really hard thing that
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the reason we use little green labels on the top of our gas
2:17
cans is because we have things that run on diesel and things
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that run on gas or maybe on your farm you have kerosene as
2:24
opposed to diesel, but they don't work the same in every
2:28
machine. In fact, I was standing in a
2:30
mechanic shop getting our the valves adjusted on our Suburban
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and a guy comes walking up in a very nice suit and he is
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steaming mad and he says, I can't believe this just happened
2:43
again, but I need you to send a wrecker.
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And the guy's like, you got to be kidding me.
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He said no. I told her to fill it up I was
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going to go inside and pay. And I came back and realized she
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had put gasoline and my diesel truck for the second time.
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And the mechanic said, isn't that what you just picked it up
2:58
for so we could clean all the gasoline now the fuel lines.
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He said yes, it literally left the shop yesterday and she
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filled it up with the wrong fuel again today.
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OK, it doesn't seem like a big deal, right?
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I mean, it's just a nozzle. It's just one type of fuel
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versus another. I, I want you to understand
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though, from a leadership principle and from a
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communication principle, we often has the the same problem.
3:24
We don't realize that the one molecule difference, one word
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difference, one tiny little adjustment changes everything.
3:35
Often what we find as leaders is we have this fantastic notion,
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this fantasy, this imagination that as leaders we have the
3:45
ability to perform alchemy. We can take anything and make
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gold out of it. No, that's a myth.
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The idea of taking one person and raising them up to this
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phenomenal superstar. Look, if the chemistry is there,
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if if you have all the right stuff in the beginning, then
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yeah. But you know what the biggest
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key indicator is for whether or not you can take somebody from
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where they are to where they could be, to their potential
4:14
them. You know what stops most people
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in their life? It's not the obstacles, it's not
4:21
even the trauma. It's them.
4:25
It's the base material that you're working with, Right.
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This is going to sound really harsh, but most leaders don't
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fail to lead the people on their team because they fail at
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leadership strategy. Most leaders don't fail to lead
4:39
their team to great successes because they've got just the
4:43
absolute worst people. Generally you don't hire people
4:48
if you don't see some potential in them, if you don't see some
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skill set, some natural talent OR ability, the right kind of
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personality. If none of that existed, you
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wouldn't even have them on your team.
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I mean, unless they're family and you don't have a choice.
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But generally speaking, you hire people because they've got some
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skill and some personality and the right aptitude and the
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potential to grow and you put it on your team And you think I can
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make gold from this. And I don't mean just profit and
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and money. While obviously if you're in
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business, that's a big part of it.
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But if you're in ministry, if you lead a team of volunteers,
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many of us as leaders still come to the table, so to speak, with
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the notion that I can take anybody and make them a
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superstar. It's just not true.
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Now, let me delineate talent, skill and willpower, because
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when you've got somebody like a Spud Webb as a perfect example,
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nobody who met Spud Webb in high school under 5 foot eight, that
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means he was shorter than me playing against guys in the NBA
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that were well over 6 feet, someone pushing 7 feet tall.
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And he dominated in his era. Why?
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Because he had the willpower to do it.
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He had the discipline. He had the habits of getting out
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there and doing what has to be done to become the best.
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He worked on his vertical leap. He works on his speed.
6:13
He worked on his agility. He worked on his ball handling
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skills. He worked on his shots short and
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long, and he never stopped doing those things.
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He didn't allow himself, not his physical stature, not his own
6:26
demeanor, to stand in the way of his success.
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The challenge for a lot of leaders is we have this myth in
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our imagination that we can take anybody, and if they just follow
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our process, we can turn them into great potential.
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If they just do what we tell them to do, suddenly they'll be
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incredible people. But the one thing that you keep
6:45
forgetting is that you're trying to make lead into gold.
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If they don't want to be better, if they come at you with an
6:54
attitude of entitlement and disrespect, it doesn't matter
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how much authority you have in everybody else's life, in that
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one person's life, you can't move the needle.
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See, this young man that put diesel in my lawn mower played
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it really, really well. I think he had everybody else
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convinced it was an accident. I didn't buy it for one second.
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Right? Look, if you've been around a
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car for 5 minutes, you can smell the difference between gasoline
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and diesel. It doesn't take a rocket
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scientist to distinguish the two just by smell.
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The fact that they're in different cans, different
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containers, even the nozzle on the top of it is a different
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size. I don't know if you remember
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this, it's been a minute, but back in my day, my first car was
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the 1967 Chevy Impala. The nozzle on that gas tank,
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when you open that thing up to put the gas in, you could have
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put a bowling ball in that thing.
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It was enormous. But the gas nozzle for the gas
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pump was also that big for regular gasoline.
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When they came out with unleaded, the first thing they
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did was they put that little flappy thing on the inside of
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your gas can and the gas cap. So when you open the gas cap to
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put gas and you couldn't put a regular nozzle in that, not into
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that gas tank, you can only put the unleaded.
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It's a different size. There's a reason for that, so
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you don't put the wrong one in there.
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Same thing with a diesel. Now these days, you pull up in
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all of your gas fuel. All of your fuel on the gasoline
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side comes out of exactly the same nozzle.
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You just have to pick the button.
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You can accidentally put in ethanol and many of your new
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cars won't run on it all, but it's really hard to put in
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diesel. It's a different color.
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It's on the other end of the pump.
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If you drive both vehicles, though, you run a risk.
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Doing it by accident is one thing.
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Doing it on purpose is a whole different thing.
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This young man made a lot of decisions.
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He made a lot of decisions that were dangerous, a lot of choices
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that were risky. And in the season that he was
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involved in our life, we kind of fell in love with him.
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The kids fell in love with him. We thought, you know, this guy's
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had a rough life. He's had a really hard journey,
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but he's got a lot of potential. He's a sharp kid, he's very
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charming, he's very attractive. He could go a long way in life
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if you'll just stop making those self sabotaging, dangerous,
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crazy decisions. Here was the challenge.
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The Who that he was lived on the attention that was given to him
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because of the crazy, dangerous choices that he made.
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That's how he stood out in the crowd.
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That's how he got the attention that he wanted.
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That's how he got all eyes on him.
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And I hate to say it, but I think it's true and I know it
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because it was a season of my life that it was true as well.
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There was a time you could ask my mother about it.
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There was a season of my life that I would lie to get myself
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in trouble. I would tell things that I knew
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not to be true because the attention that I got being in
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trouble was better than being ignored.
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I'm going to tell you as a leader, you have people on your
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team like that right now, and how you navigate that as a
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leader is going to make the difference between their success
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and your business's failure. I know that that sounds so
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harsh. It sounds like a big giant
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hyperbole. It sounds like I'm making stuff
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up. But I'm telling you right now,
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there are people in your organization who are so
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desperate for the attention, for the eyes to be on them that they
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will do obnoxious, dangerous things for your business, for
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your brand, for other relationships.
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They will damage your culture because their attitude, how they
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think, plus how they feel that chemistry is creating a volatile
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work environment inside themselves.
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The story that they're telling themselves.
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I've got to be in the spotlight. Everybody's got to pay attention
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to me. Everybody's got to look at me,
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and they will do the crazy stuff to get people to look at them.
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Just think back for a moment. I was going through wedding
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photos just yesterday and I found a wedding photo and it
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struck me how odd it was. I know the character of the
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person in this photo and personality wise it's just so
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her. But what I saw was a picture of
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a four year old laying in the floor, ankles tightly together,
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hands tightly together, and the bouquet from the bride laying on
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her chest, eyes closed, face to the ceiling like she was in a
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casket in the middle of the floor, in the middle of the
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sanctuary, in the middle of a wedding.
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Because something inside of her says all eyes must be on me.
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Whatever I have to do, however much trouble I have to get into,
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no matter whether I get scolded or might even get a little swat,
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it's OK if all eyes are on me. Now when that moves from that 4
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year old to that teenager who says I don't care if I get
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yelled at for destroying the lawnmower, if the attention is
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on me and I don't have to do the work but I do get noticed, I'm
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OK with that. Now advance that 5-10 years and
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you have someone who's responsible for major things in
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an organization, major decision making, major finances, customer
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relationships and they have the same tendency.
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I don't care how bad the consequences are, if in the
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moment I get all the attention on me, I win.
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How many social media influencers operate with the
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same MO? They just want all eyes on me.
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You hear me mock them all the time.
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The clown on the unicycle, anything to get you to look at
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me. I just want attention.
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The challenge with that is when you're the leader in an
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organization and you have 1-2 or ten people, because it's kind of
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a generational thing at this point.
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So many in my era. It was the last key kids, right?
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We were invisible. Nobody knew who we were.
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We came home from school, we unlocked the door, did our own
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thing. If we didn't have a key under
13:36
the mat, we had one around our neck.
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We walked into the house sometimes, locked the door
13:41
behind us sometimes because there was nobody home to know
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when we got home. Sometimes we didn't even go
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home. We got out of school, got on our
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bicycles and rode to God knows where.
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I remember making a 40 mile round trip on my 20 inch
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bicycle. It's one of the reasons my knees
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are destroyed, because there was nobody to tell me I couldn't.
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What are they going to do? Come find me?
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That kind of attitude of I can just get away with anything that
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I want to and and nobody's going to do anything has transferred
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now to that. We're always scrolling.
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We're not really paying attention to what's going on
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around us. We're sitting in our job
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assignment, we're sitting at a red light, we're in the middle
14:25
of a client negotiation, and then the phone goes off and this
14:28
device gets the attention. When you understand what that
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means for you as a leader, you may think it's just a
14:36
distraction, but it's not that dopamine hit.
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That's exactly what the kid laying on the floor was looking
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for, all eyes on me. It's exactly what the teenager
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who put the raw on fuel of the lawnmower was looking for, all
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eyes on me. It's the same dopamine hit.
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And if you're 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 years old and you're still
14:57
addicted to the dopamine hit of all eyes on me, you can't be
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focused on the task at hand, on the job, on the business, on the
15:07
brand, on the culture that you're supposed to be invested
15:10
in, because you're still driven by all eyes on me.
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Now, as a leader, you might think there's a little alchemy
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that I can do there. I can, I can transform that
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person into something different. Well, you can and, and some
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people might think, well, I just need to rearrange the chemicals
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in my workplace. I just need to get rid of that
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and, and add this. I need to have less of that
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personality and more of this personality.
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And there's some truth to that. I want to take you back to some
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of the basics though. Jim Collins, good degree, had a
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great notion. I still don't completely agree
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with the analogy, but almost everybody in leadership knows
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it. He said you're going to get the
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right people on the bus. OK, we'll take that analogy.
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I still think it's silly because nobody in the bus does anything
15:54
except the driver. Everybody else is just a
15:56
passenger. So to take that analogy one step
15:59
further and say you get the right people in the right seat
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on the bus, I'm like, who cares what seat you're in if you're
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not the driver, you're just here for the ride.
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But we'll stick with his analogy.
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How often do you get the people in the bus?
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And then you realize part of the friction that you have is that
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you have two of those people who are dopamine starved who
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absolutely thrive on getting attention.
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Now, we've all seen, probably been involved in at some point,
16:25
the one upsmanship game, right? Well, I did so and so, yeah,
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Well, I did this and it was that times this, and then I did that.
16:33
And then we go back and forth and it's just got to be a little
16:35
better. It's got to be a little more
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outrageous, a little more egregious, a little more
16:40
attention getting, you know. So you ran the mile in 10
16:44
minutes. Woohoo.
16:45
I did it in seven. Well, well, I didn't do it in
16:47
seven. I did it in 3 1/2.
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Well, I did it in 1.2. Nobody's ever run the mile in
16:53
one minute, right? But you'll make up that fantasy.
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You'll make up that lie. You'll exaggerate those numbers.
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Why? Because I still have to be the
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best. I still have to get the
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attention. What happens when you put those
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two people on the same seat on the bus?
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You put those two people as department heads and they
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competed against each other. You put those two people in the
17:17
same department and they'll sabotage each other.
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Your choice as a leader is, do I put them in departments so that
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they compete, so they constantly push the pressure against the
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other one. I don't have to pay for the
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incentive on that. Their own internal motivations
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are going to do that. They can't stand not being the
17:38
best. They can't stand being ignored.
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They'll do anything they can to get the attention to take the
17:43
next level. If I know that's their makeup,
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this is diesel fuel, this is gasoline.
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If I know that's their makeup, I don't have to change them into
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something else. I just have to know, as a
17:55
leader, how to put people in the right place so that their
17:59
internal motivations work together with the internal
18:03
motivations of others. My job isn't necessarily to
18:07
perform alchemy, it's a myth, but it is to perform kind of a
18:12
chemistry experiment. The challenge for a lot of
18:16
people is they look at the resume only.
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Leaders do this all the time. They look at the surface,
18:21
resume, what have you done in the past?
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They're not looking at the imagination, they're not looking
18:26
at the character, they're not looking at the makeup.
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I highly recommend to all of my clients who are in leadership,
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all of the executives that I coach, I tell them you need to
18:36
read the strength finders and take the assessment.
18:38
You need to read the six working types of genius and take the
18:41
assessment. I highly recommend that
18:44
everybody in your leadership team do the same thing because
18:47
what you're going to find is not only do you have a personality
18:50
style disc assessments and all those are those are good tools
18:52
as well. But in the strength finders,
18:55
you're going to realize that the way you process thought has been
18:59
a marker all of your life. And once you see what that that
19:04
format is, that grid is that template is the chemistry test
19:07
that you look at and go, Oh yeah, it's some of that.
19:11
No wonder I couldn't get it to burn.
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Oh yeah, it's some of that. No wonder it was burning so hot.
19:18
See, there's makeup in you, chemical makeup, emotional
19:22
makeup, historicity makeup, the stories that you've been telling
19:26
yourself all your life, kind of makeup The Who that you are is
19:30
made-up of all of those things put together.
19:33
And some of those have been your nature since your first words
19:39
and your first steps. And you may not have quite put
19:43
your finger on the pattern yet, but the minute in that pattern
19:46
of marriage is you look back at some of the things in your life
19:48
and you go, oh, that explains a lot.
19:51
I in my own journey, I didn't take the strengths Finders test
19:55
until about 2012, 2014. And when I took the test.
20:05
There was a a revelation that hit me.
20:07
Now I can go back to middle school and high school in in the
20:11
second and third grade. From 2nd grade to 3rd grade, I
20:14
skipped a grade. I didn't finish second grade.
20:16
I went first two weeks of 2nd grade.
20:18
I went to 3rd, 3rd grade to 4th grade.
20:21
I skipped 3rd grade or skipped the 4th grade, went from 3rd
20:24
grade to 5th grade. So I was, I had a couple of
20:26
years, but even then, by the time I got 5th, 6th grade, I was
20:31
the one always getting in trouble because the teacher
20:33
would explain something and I would always have my hand up.
20:36
And everybody else is like, can't we just move on?
20:39
It's time for recess, it's time for lunch.
20:40
Let's go to the next subject. We're done with this, let's move
20:42
on. And in my head, even then I was
20:46
thinking, there is no chance you truly understand this.
20:49
I mean, I get it. You say I got this, we're ready
20:52
to move on, but there's no chance you really get this.
20:55
And so all of my life, I, I had my hand up.
20:57
I want to know more. I want to know more.
20:58
I want to understand more. Tell me again, explain it like
21:00
this. By the time I got to high
21:04
school, I got the other side of that same problem.
21:10
People thought I was asleep in class and I could pop up and
21:15
answer the question. I wasn't asleep.
21:17
I was bored. It was a challenge for me, but I
21:21
was still reading stuff that nobody else reading.
21:23
Nobody cared. First place in the science fair,
21:27
2 years in a row, one for overall and one for physics.
21:33
I was still bored. I would get in trouble for being
21:37
asleep in class. I would get in trouble for
21:39
raising my hand and asking questions.
21:41
And everybody else is like, where did that question even
21:43
come from? I'm like, I just have to figure
21:45
it out. I was accused by a boss of being
21:47
a know it all and then I took string finders and my number one
21:52
is learner. I'm like a sponge.
21:55
I can't stop learning. It's not an addiction.
21:59
It's my makeup. It's the chemistry of who I am.
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Well, now that I know that it explains a lot.
22:08
How many people on your team are you looking at going?
22:11
What is wrong with them? Why can't they?
22:13
They, but they won't, and and yet they the answer is their
22:18
chemical makeup and you can't be an alchemist.
22:21
Look, if what you're working with is lead, figure out how to
22:24
use lead as a leader is part of your responsibility.
22:29
Get them on the bus if you must. Get them in the right seats on
22:32
the bus if you have to, but understand who it is that you're
22:35
working with. That's part of your job.
22:38
Part of your job as the leader isn't just to pick people out of
22:41
the ether and assign them a task.
22:44
Part of your job is to grow them up, to help them understand who
22:47
they should be, to help them understand who they could be.
22:52
And if you'll do some of these simple analysis, and I challenge
22:55
you, don't just take the six types of working genius
22:59
assessment test. Do take it.
23:02
Don't stop there. Read the book.
23:05
In the analogy and in several of the podcast, Patrick Lencioni
23:08
talks a lot about people who realized, after taking the
23:11
assessment and understanding their own makeup, The Who that
23:15
they are, the kind of person they are, what makes them happy,
23:18
what makes them sad, what drives them.
23:20
Once they understood that a little better, they adapted
23:23
their working process, their working environment, sometimes
23:26
even their job description. You have the wrong job.
23:29
That's why you are terrible at that.
23:31
You could be so much better if your job was this.
23:35
And they see people move and thrive.
23:39
Look, you don't have to fire everybody on your team and start
23:41
all over every time you have a clash.
23:43
But you might be asking yourself, am I operating this
23:46
chemistry experiment all wrong? Am I mixing the wrong people in
23:51
the wrong work environment? Am I trying to get something out
23:53
of them that I never will get? Look, if you put vinegar and
23:57
baking soda together, you know what happens with that, right?
23:59
Add a little red food coloring and all of a sudden you have
24:01
lava, right? What if you use something other
24:05
than vinegar, water? What do you get?
24:09
Nothing. There's no chemical reaction
24:11
there. You get toothpaste, baking soda
24:15
and water. Toothpaste.
24:18
That's kind of a nerd, that's kind of useless.
24:20
What are you going to get out of that?
24:22
But if you understand the properties, the chemicals, the
24:24
makeup of your team, now you can get somewhere with that.
24:29
When we talk about attitude engineering, we talk at the talk
24:32
about the power of story. If you listen to the stories
24:35
that they're telling, they're going to tell you a lot about
24:38
themselves that you wouldn't have heard otherwise.
24:41
On many occasions, I sat in the backroom doing my work, but also
24:45
listening to the conversations upfront.
24:47
On many occasions, I walked around with my team and just
24:50
listened the way they interact with other people, with
24:54
customers, and that listening wasn't how are you doing on your
24:59
job description? How are you meeting your KPI?
25:01
See how all those things are important, but if you understand
25:04
The Who that they are, what makes them up, what makes them
25:08
tick, if you'll take the time to do that as a leader, you can
25:12
really accelerate their attitude, your engagement, and
25:16
the chemistry within your place of business.
25:19
When I realized that Lerner was my #1 strategy, communication,
25:24
connectedness, those round out my top five.
25:28
When I start putting those things into place and I
25:30
understand this is who I am, this is what drives me.
25:33
This is why I behave the way that I do.
25:35
It changed the way that I interact with people.
25:38
And when I have the opportunity to walk through that with
25:40
someone as a leadership coach, I see the light come on and I see
25:45
them go, oh, that's why I do this.
25:48
Yep, it's just your makeup. It's what you do.
25:51
If you're a bottle of vinegar and I throw baking soda in
25:54
there, there's going to be reaction to that.
25:56
Not because you tried to, not because you want to, but because
26:00
it's your nature. You don't have a choice.
26:03
The question isn't how do I change your nature, The question
26:06
is how do I maximize the gifts you've been given?
26:09
That's the job of the leader. Don't try to make something out
26:11
of them that's not there. Just figure out what they
26:14
interact with best and accelerate that to their
26:19
advantage and yours. Alchemy is a myth.
26:23
You're not going to take lead or aluminum and change it from
26:26
tinfoil to gold bars. It it's not going to happen.
26:29
Or you can make them look that way.
26:31
Many people have tried. Press it down enough, you can
26:34
make it look like a gold bar. Put enough paint on it, you can
26:36
make it look like a gold bar. You can even make it out of
26:39
fool's gold. But it's not going to have the
26:41
value. And the challenge is when we do
26:44
that to people, when we try so hard to alter them from what
26:49
they were made to be into what we need them to be, we end up
26:53
with something different. We end up with a potential
26:55
disaster in the making. See, I, I didn't have enough
26:58
time in this young man's life to make a drastic difference.
27:01
He was in and out of our life in a short period of time, probably
27:04
less than six months. We tried, we welcomed him, we
27:07
loved him, we accepted him, we challenged him, we corrected
27:11
him. But that series of bad choices
27:14
that he would constantly make just to get attention, all eyes
27:18
on me, led to him shortening his own life in a DUI accident.
27:24
Tragic. Tragic.
27:29
It may not be that it's a life or death decision, but it might
27:33
be a career ending decision. When someone feels like I don't
27:37
get enough attention, nobody's looking at me and I have to do
27:39
whatever I have to do to get attention.
27:42
That may be on the leader, unwilling to say I understand
27:46
your makeup. I'm going to put you in a place
27:48
where you can thrive, where you get attention for doing the
27:50
right things and not the wrong things.
27:53
If you're a leader and you're challenged with that, you're not
27:55
sure exactly how to get the best chemical reaction out of your
27:58
team, Let's talk. Let's talk about the attitude
28:00
hack. Let's better understand the
28:02
stories that there are already telling, what drives them and
28:05
what motivates them. And then let's help define the
28:07
culture by attitude, engineering the right conversations into
28:10
your workplace. That's what we're here for.
28:14
I'm Jay Lauren Norris with leading leaders podcast for tell
28:16
her like it is TV. Have a blessed day.
28:26
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I'd really love to know what you hope to get out of this course.
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And if you leave any one of those parts out, you're going to
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