Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E62: Matt and Cameron Fradd on Parenting, Marriage, & Homeschooling

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E62: Matt and Cameron Fradd on Parenting, Marriage, & Homeschooling · The Lila Rose Show

• 0:00
  How does someone know that the person that they're dating is
• 0:03
  the one? How did I know?
• 0:05
  I I just wanted to marry her. I wanted her to be the mother of
• 0:07
  my children. I wanted to spend my life with
• 0:10
  her. It was that simple.
• 0:11
  I think it was the fact that he loved me so much, but he loved
• 0:16
  God even more than me. I feel like he had things in
• 0:18
  right order. He loved God first and foremost.
• 0:20
  He loved me and would put me above his own needs.
• 0:23
  And then he was my best friend. Yeah, who else would I wanna do
• 0:26
  life with? And my best friend.
• 0:32
  Hey guys, welcome back to the Lila Rose podcast.
• 0:35
  Today is going to be fun. We're going to have in the
• 0:37
  studio 2 friends of mine, a beautiful couple, Matt and
• 0:41
  Cameron Frad. You may have heard of Matt Frad
• 0:44
  from Pints with Aquinas or Cameron Frad from her podcast
• 0:47
  Among the Lilies. They're an amazing couple doing
• 0:50
  amazing things in the world. And we're going to get into,
• 0:52
  yes, their story, their relationship advice, parenting
• 0:55
  advice, homeschooling, all, all of the things, you know, I look
• 0:58
  at them and I see what they've built with their family.
• 1:00
  They've got 4 kids, been married 19 years, and there's just a lot
• 1:04
  of wisdom to glean from them. And the conversation also
• 1:07
  includes a lot of banter. It's very friendly banter, but
• 1:10
  it's maybe a little bit of a different tack than some of the
• 1:13
  more serious podcasts. We've done it, but I hope you'll
• 1:14
  enjoy. All right, so today we have a
• 1:17
  treat. We have two frieds in the
• 1:19
  studio. We have the husband of Cameron
• 1:22
  Frad. Who you may know from among the
• 1:25
  lilies. Yes, among the lilies, which I
• 1:28
  was leaving our house today and talking to one of your many
• 1:31
  fans, our sitter who loves your show.
• 1:34
  It's an amazing show. And then Matt, you have a show,
• 1:36
  I think some people. What's the name of it again?
• 1:39
  Pints with a quietness, I think. OK, pints with a quietness.
• 1:42
  OK, so you guys are tell me, I want to start with we're going
• 1:45
  to do a lot in this interview. We're going to talk about your
• 1:48
  love story. Have you guys met, especially
• 1:52
  from Cameron's point of view, since you, you know, laughing,
• 1:55
  you laugh. And then and then we're going to
• 1:58
  hear about parenting. We're going to talk about
• 2:00
  whatever we, wherever we go with this.
• 2:02
  There's lots of interesting things.
• 2:04
  We have really good editors over there.
• 2:06
  So. But first I'll start with you,
• 2:09
  Cameron, where are you from? East Coast and South is what I
• 2:13
  always say. I moved a lot as a kid, so I
• 2:15
  supported Massachusetts, South Carolina, Virginia, Louisiana,
• 2:19
  Texas. I graduated from school in
• 2:21
  Texas. So I kind of claimed that a
• 2:23
  little more did missionary work with NET ministries in Canada
• 2:27
  and then eventually did NET Ireland where Matt and I met
• 2:31
  from East Coast and. South and then you have kids
• 2:33
  together, of course. We do.
• 2:35
  Yep, they all look just like him.
• 2:37
  OK, so. Is that true?
• 2:40
  That's good for sure. Very unfortunate.
• 2:42
  No, they're really good. So lovely.
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  They're a good looking man. And you have how many kids we
• 2:46
  have? 4, OK, yeah, we have 4 ones.
• 2:48
  And then you also host among the lilies.
• 2:50
  I do, yes. And what do you talk about on
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  that show? So my catch phrase is among the
• 2:56
  lilies is for ladies who are tired of pretending and are
• 2:58
  ready to be real. And when we had our fourth
• 3:01
  child, I broke and fell apart. He was a preemie.
• 3:05
  He was a NICU baby. He was on a feeding tube for a
• 3:07
  long time and I felt like, I think Jim.
• 3:10
  Is it Jim Gaffigan? Is he the one?
• 3:11
  No, Jim Gaffigan has a joke if. You want to know what it's like
• 3:14
  to have four babies? Just imagine you're drowning and
• 3:18
  someone hand you a baby. Something to that effect.
• 3:19
  So that that was me. I was drowning with three babies
• 3:21
  and then I was given a sick 1 and I did not sleep.
• 3:25
  He kept almost dying. And and then I I had good
• 3:30
  beautiful friends that came around me and helped me get
• 3:32
  help. And I remember trying to listen
• 3:35
  to a podcast and this is a while ago, so like if you were around,
• 3:38
  I would have loved your podcast, but this is back before I feel
• 3:41
  like there were many and I tried a couple.
• 3:44
  He was born in 2014. So this is like 2015.
• 3:47
  And I remember looking for a good Catholic podcast or even a
• 3:50
  Christian podcast and they were horrible.
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  They were really bad. Like I remember this one I
• 3:54
  listened to it was women and they were sharing like sometimes
• 3:57
  I'm not the best wife like today only.
• 3:59
  Once a month I didn't. Sweep my floors.
• 4:01
  Oh, and and I was just angry and I wanted to punch them in the
• 4:04
  face. And I remember just being like,
• 4:06
  God, why is no one being real? Like these women are not helping
• 4:09
  anyone. They're being extremely fake and
• 4:11
  they're making me who's like struggling with depression and
• 4:15
  life and feel like a failure. And then I had some friends like
• 4:19
  Christlina Everett and. She's amazing.
• 4:21
  Yeah, Sarah Swofford and some other friends encouraged me.
• 4:24
  And I felt the Lord say, you have the gift of gab.
• 4:27
  And there's a microphone literally in this room, so just
• 4:29
  do it. So I started it just to talk.
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  And I feel like it was like my therapy sessions and.
• 4:35
  Do you remember the first name we thought of?
• 4:37
  Mark Hart. Yeah.
• 4:39
  Like, what's like a name just about being real?
• 4:40
  And he said, what about vodka in the linen closet?
• 4:43
  OK, it was almost my. Vodka that's very close to among
• 4:46
  the lilies. Same same, same veins.
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  And I didn't drink. Vodka.
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  But you're having NICU baby. You just were handed the 4th
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  child, you know, a blessing from God, but you're in total chaos.
• 4:55
  And you're like, now's a great time to start a podcast.
• 4:58
  Yeah, Pretty. How did you do that with four
• 4:59
  kids and a baby that's so sick and a NICU?
• 5:02
  So I never learned how to edit. I still don't.
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  That's you. Know that is a an interesting
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  silver lining right there. I was just just put it out.
• 5:09
  I'm just going to say. Whatever and whatever comes out,
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  great. You just upload voice notes on
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  your phone. Upload to the.
• 5:17
  Yeah, I didn't even know I could do that.
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  I just use Matt's microphone. And so I feel like I record less
• 5:21
  now because I tried to do YouTube once I moved to
• 5:24
  Steubenville. So I record.
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  I need, I need to just do the voice thing on my phone because
• 5:28
  whenever I get passionate about something, yeah, which is often.
• 5:32
  That's that's definitely real. You should love cause the
• 5:34
  microphones are so good on phones today.
• 5:37
  Look at you. You just you can actually.
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  Get a little plug in for your phone that's basically a high
• 5:42
  quality microphone you could literally carry in your purse.
• 5:44
  Yeah, so when inspiration strikes.
• 5:46
  It's like all of a sudden mum's out on the back porch ranting,
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  leave her alone, kids. Yes, she's.
• 5:51
  She's she has to talk. There might be a scream in the
• 5:53
  background, but that's a raw and authentic podcast right there.
• 5:56
  Yes, I may drop words that aren't appropriate, but that's
• 6:00
  OK. I did open an episode with that.
• 6:03
  OK, that's OK. That's a.
• 6:04
  That's a it. Was a loving term of interior.
• 6:07
  Which word was it? What's up?
• 6:09
  Are you wow? We've never said that word in my
• 6:12
  podcast, but I expected that. I expected that I.
• 6:16
  Think it's because I said to you like, how come all the women
• 6:19
  whenever they record whenever? If you are listening with
• 6:22
  children right now, I apologize. I don't know how this episode is
• 6:25
  going to go. Well, we will.
• 6:27
  I had no promises they. Seem like we have a women give a
• 6:29
  talk in like Christian context. They would always go, what's
• 6:32
  hello ladies, right? And she's like, what's a.
• 6:36
  All right, well. Just to be different, you just.
• 6:38
  To be different. OK, so.
• 6:41
  When I said it there, everyone was server offended.
• 6:43
  Do you say it? No, no, no.
• 6:44
  Remember Jason Everett said that you could say whatever because
• 6:47
  you you were at some conference with a bunch of bishops and
• 6:49
  maybe a cardinal or something and you said something and
• 6:52
  Jesus, like anyone else, saying that everybody would have been
• 6:54
  in trouble, but you get away with it or.
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  Australian. OK, what don't you know?
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  Just say the word. Just spell it or say the first.
• 7:00
  Letter. But letter, I'm just you were
• 7:02
  out of conference. There's no way it was explaining
• 7:04
  it was. A real looking.
• 7:05
  Into it, sorry. And you you won't want me to.
• 7:09
  OK, if you want to know what the word was, you can join the
• 7:13
  Patreon. We'll put that on the Patreon
• 7:17
  page for our patrons. OK, and it's fall.
• 7:20
  It's time to sit down with your steaming cup of hot coffee and
• 7:24
  read your favorite book under a warm blanket.
• 7:26
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• 7:29
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  and you can use the code Lila at checkout for 10% off your order.
• 8:16
  And then Matt, you are give us your background where you're
• 8:19
  from, then we're going to go to the point where you met each
• 8:21
  other, but also just for folks that aren't yet familiar with
• 8:24
  the Joe Rogan of Catholic podcasting.
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  I'm from Australia. I grew up there and I was
• 8:31
  agnostic or atheistic in my teenage years.
• 8:34
  At the age of 17, I had a profound conversion to Jesus
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  Christ and to embrace the Catholic faith of my my youth.
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  After that, I just wanted to talk about our Lord.
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  And so I eventually served as a missionary in Canada with a
• 8:47
  particular group and then in Ireland.
• 8:49
  And that's How I Met my wife. And you then when you after you
• 8:54
  met Cameron, which we're going to talk about in a minute, you
• 8:56
  ended on going on to write books.
• 8:58
  You were the anti porn expert for well, you still are I.
• 9:02
  Don't know about an expert but I but.
• 9:03
  You wrote books on that? Everyone says that about him
• 9:06
  behind his back. Yeah.
• 9:07
  Are you? He's not.
• 9:08
  He doesn't like that. Well, I don't think I am.
• 9:10
  I just I like, I like thinking about it a lot.
• 9:13
  And you were a very you've been a very important speaker and
• 9:16
  writer. On it, I spoke, I spoke to about
• 9:18
  50 to 70,000 people every year for the last Wow, Yeah, for
• 9:21
  about 10 years straight on. Pornography.
• 9:23
  Whoa, you. Know where would it go to?
• 9:26
  I think even just in the Christian world, like, yeah, I
• 9:29
  know you're being humble. She is, yeah.
• 9:31
  Anyway. That's why I did that and I
• 9:32
  loved it. It was very great.
• 9:33
  It was beautiful to do. And I don't know if it's 'cause
• 9:37
  it's like a very difficult topic.
• 9:39
  It is. It's like abortion, right?
• 9:41
  I'm sure to be in that topic constantly.
• 9:43
  You're dealing with fallout, you know, and so I was doing my
• 9:47
  master's degree in philosophy and I wanted to start a podcast
• 9:50
  where I could just kind of talk about Catholic philosophy,
• 9:53
  Thomas Aquinas's thought because I was doing a master's degree in
• 9:55
  to Mystic philosophy. And so I started a podcast
• 9:58
  called Pines with Aquinas. I didn't really forget the name
• 10:01
  of my podcast and and that kind of developed from just me kind
• 10:05
  of like looking at different Suma articles to now long form
• 10:08
  discussions. OK.
• 10:09
  So and then at some point you when you were both doing that,
• 10:13
  you met each other. So how did you meet and Matt,
• 10:16
  how did you make your first move do?
• 10:19
  You want me to do it? Yeah.
• 10:20
  So. Well, OK, here you go.
• 10:23
  So we served with net. Ministry, give me the real
• 10:25
  truth. Oh, I will.
• 10:27
  That's all we know how to do. I think you can correct me if
• 10:29
  it's not real, but I we served with Net Ministries of Canada
• 10:32
  and this is back in the day where you know, the Internet was
• 10:35
  it's. Like an early 2000s.
• 10:36
  Yeah, the internet's humming along, but they're going to send
• 10:38
  you pamphlets and brochures and packages, you know?
• 10:41
  So I reached out to Net Canada. They sent me a package and I
• 10:44
  opened up this pamphlet and I'm looking through it and there's
• 10:46
  like these young missionaries and there was this really pretty
• 10:48
  missionary on the front cover and that was her.
• 10:51
  And so then after I served a year in Canada, they wanted to
• 10:54
  send a pilot team to Ireland. And so they.
• 10:57
  Saying Ireland not. Ireland.
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  The island of Ireland and they chose missionaries from previous
• 11:05
  net years and put us on a team together.
• 11:06
  And I knew that Cameron would be on that team and I sent out an
• 11:09
  e-mail to my new team members and ignored everybody who
• 11:13
  responded except this one and saying.
• 11:15
  Hey, you want to get drinks? Yeah, You, you bloke.
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  I. Don't know now.
• 11:20
  There was MSMSN that was. After So you asked Cameron out
• 11:23
  by asking all the. No, you don't date on that.
• 11:26
  So we just you can't date on. That it's like focus.
• 11:29
  Is that right? No, it's stricter.
• 11:30
  Wow. Yeah.
• 11:31
  Well, do you know I don't. Know so you weren't allowed to
• 11:33
  date but you were like I still want to go on AI sort of chat
• 11:38
  with. Just to get to know her a bit
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  maybe. And then she then we kind of, we
• 11:42
  came together as a team and yeah, we just really liked each
• 11:47
  other. OK, so if you weren't allowed
• 11:51
  to. Date I like, I don't mean I
• 11:52
  don't even mean physically attracted, I just mean I really
• 11:54
  think you're cool. Yeah, I like.
• 11:56
  Talking to you, yeah. Of course you were physically
• 11:58
  attracted. I don't know if I was at front
• 12:00
  at first. There's a lot of pretty women
• 12:01
  just like, there's like. Yeah, there's a lot of handsome
• 12:03
  guys on the team, but I don't think there was, for me at
• 12:06
  least, it wasn't this like, Oh my goodness, he's the cutest.
• 12:09
  Yes, there's moments of that, but I also, with net, I've seen
• 12:13
  it handled really well when someone's had an attraction and
• 12:16
  they choose not to act on it, put the mission of the team
• 12:19
  above it and then afterwards get married and go on.
• 12:22
  And it's lovely. And I've seen other people where
• 12:24
  they kind of date or like flirt with each other and it ruins the
• 12:27
  mission. It's it's kind of hard for
• 12:28
  people who haven't served in a team like this to understand.
• 12:31
  It might seem weird, why couldn't you date on a team?
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  But you're living in close proximity and your primary
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  mission is to evangelize young people and tell them about Jesus
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  Christ. If you take your eyes off of the
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  mission and on to Susie or John or whatever it, it creates weird
• 12:43
  dynamics within a team environment.
• 12:45
  That, that, that makes sense. But it's, I want to, I think
• 12:49
  it's really interesting what you said and what you both are
• 12:51
  saying, which is that you both were attractive people, but you
• 12:54
  didn't necessarily feel immediate sparks are physical
• 12:57
  attraction to each other, which I think is.
• 13:00
  Well, I actually don't even know if that's true because I think
• 13:02
  about when we were in that that pub in Ottawa, we were playing
• 13:05
  darts. And I remember at one point
• 13:07
  thinking everyone else in the pub disappeared except for Matt.
• 13:10
  And I was like embarrassed. So I had moments of that, but I
• 13:13
  wasn't going to let that take over.
• 13:16
  So I think we were attracted to each other, but it wasn't this.
• 13:19
  We have to act on it now. It's like, OK, let's just put
• 13:21
  that aside. Yeah.
• 13:23
  I think that's probably how everybody thinks.
• 13:24
  Like, I'm in California, there's lots of pretty people
• 13:27
  everywhere, but you don't walk around going, oh, you just like,
• 13:30
  oh, she's beautiful. He looks like a handsome dude,
• 13:32
  but whatever. It's like when you kind of get
• 13:34
  to know the person that you're starting to be drawn in.
• 13:37
  Well, and I think that's the right way to respond, but I
• 13:40
  think in today's world with the way people are, I think they'll
• 13:44
  expect life experiences. They have things like
• 13:47
  pornography, etcetera. I think the step between
• 13:49
  acknowledging someone's attractiveness and then moving
• 13:52
  into maybe intense interest or lust is unfortunately, I think a
• 13:57
  short a short path for a lot of people.
• 14:00
  So, but it sounds like that was not your story.
• 14:03
  You started as friends. You had this friendship.
• 14:05
  I remember saying to my friend Todd, who was on our team, I
• 14:07
  said I don't think I'm attracted to Cameron, but I want to be
• 14:10
  attracted to her because she's so great.
• 14:13
  I really like her. So then when did, when did that?
• 14:16
  When when you left net, then you called her up and said.
• 14:19
  OK so there's a quote from CS Lewis and Matt at the beginning
• 14:23
  of training lent me this book and it says love is friendship
• 14:25
  caught on fire. And that have been my prayer all
• 14:28
  year that I would experience that with someone, whether it be
• 14:31
  my ex-boyfriend that I broke up with right before I went on met
• 14:34
  Ireland or someone else maybe Matt but I just didn't know.
• 14:39
  And we went, I remember right before we left Ireland, it was
• 14:42
  the night before everybody on our team was flying home and and
• 14:47
  I remember saying to one of the girls on my team, the thought of
• 14:49
  never seeing Matt again breaks my heart.
• 14:51
  But I don't like him like that. I was convinced I didn't like
• 14:53
  him like that. They're like, he's like a little
• 14:55
  brother and I would really miss my little.
• 14:57
  I loved him like a brother and but I have been praying that and
• 15:02
  I went back to Texas, he went back to Australia.
• 15:04
  We were talking sometimes we'd be on the phone and it was
• 15:06
  amazing. And it was like we're going to
• 15:07
  get married. And then other times it's like I
• 15:09
  don't like you. Anyhow, he's going to be a
• 15:10
  Friar. The renewal.
• 15:11
  I'm going with Sisters of life or something else, you know, and
• 15:14
  it was real. It was hard.
• 15:17
  It dating was very hard. It was before there was
• 15:19
  space-time and we're in different countries and I went
• 15:22
  to go visit Matt in Australia. And should I just tell that
• 15:27
  little bit what do you want? Whatever you like, you just.
• 15:29
  Go for. It the truth the.
• 15:31
  Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
• 15:34
  OK so I flew to Australia and we had this amazing beautiful day
• 15:38
  where we went for a rosary walk first thing in the morning,
• 15:40
  watched the sunrise, not packed a picnic lunch.
• 15:43
  It was amazing, beautiful. We went on like a river cruise
• 15:47
  around Brisbane Harbor. You're doing great.
• 15:50
  No, you you could pick up. Your turn now.
• 15:53
  I said I was about to say ferry, and then you say cruise.
• 15:55
  So you got it. Yeah.
• 15:56
  And we went to a place where you got to hold a koala and see the
• 15:59
  Kangaroos. Feed Kangaroos.
• 16:01
  It's pretty amazing. And then we took a drive up to
• 16:03
  this lovely lookout over Brisbane and I forget the name
• 16:06
  of it, but anyone watching from Brisbane would know what it is.
• 16:09
  And I we. Have a lot of Brisbane.
• 16:10
  Brisbane, you probably do more than.
• 16:12
  I think you do. I hope.
• 16:13
  So I leaned in to kiss her and oh wow, I was denied.
• 16:16
  Wow wait, were you even you were dating at this point of?
• 16:19
  No, we weren't really. This is a friend.
• 16:21
  Kiss well, you say. Why?
• 16:22
  Because OK, so the reason I said no and I didn't let him kiss me
• 16:25
  is because I said we have two weeks to figure out what we are.
• 16:29
  I love you as my brother and there's times where I think I'm
• 16:33
  attracted to you and then there's other times that I
• 16:35
  don't. So I don't know.
• 16:36
  And I want to have strong boundaries here.
• 16:38
  And he got very upset and I felt bad, but I was like, I didn't
• 16:42
  get very. Upset so you weren't even sure
• 16:44
  you were. Attracted.
• 16:45
  But when you said that to me, I was like, I'm I'm just, I'm
• 16:48
  going to be a priest. I don't.
• 16:49
  OK, so I felt like you put a wall up and maybe had some
• 16:52
  distance because prior to that I feel like there was moments that
• 16:57
  he'd look at me and I swear he saw through my heart and like
• 17:01
  saw a part of me that I didn't even want to let anyone see.
• 17:05
  And I think he saw a part of me that God knows, but no one else
• 17:09
  knows. And it was embarrassing.
• 17:11
  You wrote a song about it, and one of the lines in the song is.
• 17:15
  Wait, can you sing it? No, we don't wanna.
• 17:17
  Do that. No, he's definitely not gonna
• 17:18
  sing it, and I don't even know if you should say that.
• 17:20
  Not gonna. Have.
• 17:20
  Why can it? Can I ask?
• 17:21
  Just the line. Lila, I'm not here for your
• 17:23
  views and subscribers. I'm here for mine.
• 17:25
  I'm not singing it. Yours might appreciate it.
• 17:28
  Have you sung on your podcast before?
• 17:29
  I I I think I've sung occasionally.
• 17:31
  But they loved it. I'm I actually, we have one of
• 17:34
  your fans in the studio. Did you like it when Matt sang
• 17:36
  on the postcards? Just say yes.
• 17:38
  He loved it so. So for our wedding, what was the
• 17:40
  line? You don't.
• 17:41
  Just sing it. What was the line?
• 17:42
  So we had a CD that was love. Actually, if anyone's watching
• 17:45
  and you have the CDI want it. It's called Love Songs for Cami
• 17:48
  and he wrote all these songs. Why would someone else have his
• 17:51
  CD? Because we gave it as gifts.
• 17:53
  At the wedding. Wow.
• 17:54
  But I did because we moved so many countries.
• 17:56
  And this was before digital. This is on a.
• 17:58
  It's on. A disk?
• 17:59
  Yeah. I would love to get it one of
• 18:01
  these days. What a gift to give away at your
• 18:03
  wedding. I know it was a beautiful gift,
• 18:05
  but the line is you bite your lip and shy away.
• 18:10
  And then something I forgot what it.
• 18:12
  Was it's so good to prove it a lot, but.
• 18:16
  It's that part you. Look, this is getting way too
• 18:19
  intimate for me. I can't.
• 18:21
  You can't do this. The light's so good, but it's
• 18:23
  something. Like you look at me, Kangaroos
• 18:25
  are great. You bite your lip and shy away,
• 18:28
  but I want to pull you close into me and.
• 18:30
  You look at me and I see your heart when I.
• 18:33
  Realize it was lovely. I can scratch.
• 18:38
  Professionalism here. Just to clarify for a second,
• 18:42
  this CD had original love song that Matt wrote for you,
• 18:47
  recorded for you and and you know, it is sweet I guess that
• 18:51
  you gave it away at 11. Why would you give that away at
• 18:53
  your wedding and not keep that? We had one.
• 18:55
  We have no you've had coffee, but.
• 18:57
  But you've been lost over the food.
• 18:58
  Wow. You've been married a really
• 19:00
  long time. How many years have you been
• 19:02
  married? 1717 years married, so we've got
• 19:06
  to find that CD. Yes, I would love to have that
• 19:08
  CD again. Love songs for Cam Cam or cami?
• 19:11
  Cami. It was Cami.
• 19:12
  CAMI. CAMI.
• 19:14
  If anyone is good at eBay fines or how much money would you give
• 19:22
  someone who could find love songs for cami of the original?
• 19:24
  No, she's actually asking you. It wasn't rhetorical.
• 19:27
  I feel like your parents or my parents should.
• 19:29
  Have all right, The Lila Rose podcast will give $150.00.
• 19:33
  If you get 100. And 50 dollars $300 you can
• 19:36
  recover love songs for a candy CAMMI EE OMM i.e.
• 19:41
  It's a blue. CD.
• 19:42
  That's so lovely, Matt, that you did that in the.
• 19:45
  Cover was blue. Nope.
• 19:46
  That's a different CD you're thinking about.
• 19:48
  This one had you and me on it and it was black and white.
• 19:50
  Wow yes it was a sticker that he put the stickers on the CDs I
• 19:54
  forgot. That's very sweet.
• 19:56
  OK, so I had, I had these intimate moments, but I just
• 20:00
  didn't want to confuse things. I was like, I know that I love
• 20:03
  this guy as my brother in Christ.
• 20:05
  So we were both talking with religious orders at the time.
• 20:07
  Do. You understand?
• 20:08
  So it wasn't it wasn't that. Now for that we have a lot of
• 20:10
  Catholic Zulus and we have a lot of Protestants.
• 20:12
  We have a lot of non even non religious.
• 20:13
  So we've loved her. So you were considering
• 20:16
  religious orders, meaning you're discerning whether you be a
• 20:18
  priest and a nun, basically, and you're also kind of dating.
• 20:22
  Exactly. And that very it's not.
• 20:24
  It wasn't that we weren't attracted to each other, was
• 20:27
  that? Well, obviously.
• 20:28
  She wasn't sure. Matt She.
• 20:29
  Wasn't sure, I was definitely attracted to her but I wasn't
• 20:32
  sure if we wanted to confuse things while I'm in
• 20:36
  conversations with her. Well, I think going to Australia
• 20:40
  and walking along the beach. I was getting.
• 20:42
  Mixed messages holding koalas. I know that does not sound like
• 20:46
  discerning to me. The koala did poop in my hand.
• 20:49
  I didn't even care because it was adorable and it was a koala.
• 20:52
  And have you ever held? Koala.
• 20:53
  I haven't, but that. Oh, not a koala.
• 20:55
  Have you ever heard of Held Koala?
• 20:57
  I would. I'd never held a koala or their
• 20:59
  excrement, but I would love to hold a koala.
• 21:02
  It was awesome. I feel like you gotta get to the
• 21:04
  Bishop bit quick. OK so Fast forward and we are so
• 21:09
  same visit but now we're in SA where Matt's from and we go to
• 21:12
  have tea with his Bishop and Matt's.
• 21:14
  One of one of Matt's main sources of fellowship was his
• 21:17
  Bishop so he calls him Bish. They were very close friends.
• 21:21
  Things are a little informal in Australia.
• 21:23
  So it was a small country town. So our Bishop, Eugene Hurley.
• 21:25
  Wonderful. Amazing beauty, but I feel like
• 21:28
  the intimacy he had with him was more like you would have with
• 21:31
  just a normal parish priest, Right.
• 21:33
  So we're sitting there and he's talking about how beautiful it
• 21:36
  is to be in love. All the stuff.
• 21:37
  We're having tea. And the Bishop was saying.
• 21:39
  This, the Bishop's saying this, and in my head I'm thinking it's
• 21:42
  not telling the Bishop we're in love because I don't know.
• 21:45
  I'm still not sure, but I'm smiling and nodding because
• 21:47
  that's what you do when you're having tea with the Bishop.
• 21:50
  And then he asks just. Give each other a kiss and
• 21:53
  you're like OK, fine, you're better than that.
• 21:55
  Oh, sorry, I'll. Just let you talk about her, not
• 21:58
  to build it up, but it's better than that.
• 22:00
  So he asked if he can pray over us.
• 22:02
  And so we stand up and the Bishop puts his hands over us
• 22:06
  both his hands, one on my head. One of Matt's head leads a
• 22:09
  beautiful prayer and I pray, Lord, let me know.
• 22:12
  And so that CS Lewis quote love, his friendship caught on fire.
• 22:15
  I'm praying that too. I'm like, Lord, if I'm supposed
• 22:17
  to marry this man, let me know. He's finishes the prayer and
• 22:21
  then he kneels down before us and says, will you 2 pray over
• 22:24
  me? So Matt and I are standing there
• 22:27
  and we put our hands on the Bishop.
• 22:29
  And I swear my heart just ignited.
• 22:32
  Like in that moment, I know, like it was just like I felt my
• 22:36
  heart like beating and just, I don't know, it just felt like it
• 22:41
  exploded. And I just felt like the Lord
• 22:42
  was saying, yes, this is the man you're going to spend the rest
• 22:45
  of your life with. This is who you're going to
• 22:46
  marry. It's real love.
• 22:47
  I desire this. And I remember praying, OK,
• 22:50
  Lord, you know me and I feel like you're saying this, but
• 22:53
  could you make it clear? Because I'm one of those people.
• 22:55
  He needs to hit over the head with a 2 by 4.
• 22:58
  And then the Bishop, we say Amen.
• 23:00
  And the Bishop opens his eyes, looks at Matt and says, Matt,
• 23:03
  just as we need holy priests and brothers, we need good holy
• 23:08
  husbands and fathers. And that was my confirmation.
• 23:12
  I'm going to marry this guy. And then the Bishop got up, and
• 23:15
  then Matt got down on when he noticed what happened next.
• 23:21
  We went and made out in a car. Wow, OK.
• 23:23
  It was terrific. Chase Lee.
• 23:27
  Well, I. Flirting with the edges it just.
• 23:30
  Stopped a little bit. We were excited.
• 23:33
  It was beautiful, passionate, but it was appropriate.
• 23:36
  Wall up of like, I'm not going to kiss you because I don't want
• 23:39
  to confuse things that wall came down.
• 23:41
  I think is what you were ready to get, yes.
• 23:42
  No, but it was chase. I'm beast, but it was beautiful
• 23:45
  as beautiful and. I mean, I'm sure there's,
• 23:48
  there's, there's obviously a debate about is there any, is it
• 23:50
  possible to kiss before you're married?
• 23:52
  So I have strong views about it, but I'm a hypocrite because.
• 23:54
  I live by OH. Really.
• 23:56
  So my views are that you shouldn't be engaging in an
• 23:59
  activity in which your body is physiologically preparing for
• 24:04
  intercourse. I think that's a good rule of
• 24:06
  thumb. It's a tough one though, when
• 24:08
  you're in love with someone very tough.
• 24:10
  Yes, anyway. Anyway, so then that's where the
• 24:13
  little Peck on the cheek is more the way to go.
• 24:16
  She went so after we kissed and it was just glorious, wonderful
• 24:19
  time, but we're not going to get into it because it makes me
• 24:21
  embarrassed. And then Cameron went not.
• 24:23
  Embarrassed enough to, I know, share it with the podcast, no.
• 24:26
  I can talk about making out in the car, but I can't talk about
• 24:29
  the kind of lyrics I wrote for you in a song.
• 24:31
  I don't know why. Come on and sort it out in the
• 24:33
  car shows. The lack of willingness to let
• 24:35
  your sensitivity out. Maybe.
• 24:37
  So anyway, Cameron goes back to Texas and I'm in Australia.
• 24:41
  And then I went and visited her and just.
• 24:44
  Wait, wait, wait. Sorry, really quick before
• 24:46
  Cameron leaves Australia. You are.
• 24:48
  You are a couple. Yes, you are boyfriend.
• 24:50
  Girlfriend, definitely. Are you talking about marriage
• 24:53
  so you know it's. Crazy.
• 24:54
  I met his grandmother on her birthday and she gave me a
• 24:58
  jewellery box of hers and and Matt's, it's Matt's mom's mom
• 25:04
  and they were very close and, and it was just beautiful.
• 25:08
  I was like, thank you so much. And she was very prayerful.
• 25:11
  She always had rosary beads and she was just this beautiful
• 25:13
  woman. And by the time I got home and
• 25:16
  wrote a thank you note and mailed it to her, she died.
• 25:19
  And it was just like, I feel like she knew.
• 25:22
  This is taking so many unexpected.
• 25:23
  Turns I know, but I just I feel like it's it was really
• 25:26
  beautiful. I feel like we were aware and I
• 25:28
  think even spending time with your family, like I feel like
• 25:32
  the Lord just. He knew.
• 25:33
  Yeah, he set it up. Yeah, so I was only there for
• 25:36
  two weeks, but I feel like I had certain certainty in that time,
• 25:39
  but still trusting the Lord's will.
• 25:41
  But I flew back to Texas. Yeah.
• 25:45
  I just want to derail the whole interview.
• 25:46
  And then we made out in Texas that didn't have, but I just, I
• 25:49
  don't know why it's making me OK.
• 25:51
  So anyway, then what happened was I went and visited her for
• 25:54
  two weeks and it was just terrific.
• 25:55
  I went back to Australia, bought an engagement ring, got a job in
• 25:59
  Texas and moved there in December 2005.
• 26:03
  What job was that? Doesn't matter.
• 26:04
  It was a youth minister. Nice new job and then proposed a
• 26:08
  month later. Yeah, so when I made my friends,
• 26:11
  I was engaged. They're like, you have a
• 26:12
  boyfriend? I was like, Oh yeah, there's
• 26:14
  this guy, he just moved from Australia.
• 26:16
  Like my little brother. Yeah, yeah.
• 26:18
  Yep, love him greatly. Why do you keep saying?
• 26:20
  Little I think she's older than me.
• 26:21
  I no, but I the way Cameron was talking earlier about like she
• 26:25
  isn't sure if she liked you. Like, I kind of gave me the vibe
• 26:28
  of, you know, Cameron, mature, sophisticated, kind of I was.
• 26:31
  Two years older, so maybe you. Are a little older.
• 26:34
  Yeah, two years. So it's a temperament.
• 26:36
  Thing but but I also I joke and I don't know if this is true or
• 26:39
  not but I joke about my nose ring we got in Ireland together.
• 26:43
  Together. Yep.
• 26:44
  I actually just realized you have a little nest head.
• 26:47
  Yeah, a little. Nose ring.
• 26:48
  My mom said I would never get a real job again.
• 26:50
  No one would hire me. I don't.
• 26:52
  Know why did you bring that up? I don't know, there was a point
• 26:54
  I forgot what it was. You and I 'cause you and I had a
• 26:57
  couple of beers in Ireland. Wait, this is when you're a net.
• 26:59
  Missioner, this is net. OK, net ends all right, everyone
• 27:02
  goes home so. Now you get the.
• 27:04
  We go get when you're a missionary beers.
• 27:06
  Yeah. And you go, what if I got a nose
• 27:08
  ring and I'm like, yes. And then we went down and they
• 27:11
  they put that thing through your nose and I nearly punched that
• 27:14
  woman. Matt, is this when you got your
• 27:15
  tattoo? I wish you hadn't brought that
• 27:17
  up. That was that a secret?
• 27:19
  I'm very embarrassed. No, I got this a while ago.
• 27:22
  When did I get this 2000? And I actually didn't even know
• 27:24
  you had a tattoo. I just I told him I have.
• 27:26
  Strong views about tattoos as well.
• 27:27
  I think that's so boring and lame.
• 27:29
  I shouldn't get one I regret. Getting this OK, so but you got
• 27:32
  that tattoo in Ireland? No, I've just.
• 27:33
  Got it. But.
• 27:34
  It was years after, OK. Oh you ticket in Ireland but you
• 27:36
  don't think people should get tattoos?
• 27:38
  People can do whatever they want, I just think you don't
• 27:40
  think tattoos are never as interesting as you think they
• 27:43
  are. Get scars instead.
• 27:44
  Scars are tattoos but with a better story.
• 27:47
  How? How would you go and?
• 27:49
  Start fighting people. OK, cool.
• 27:54
  All right, like we already said, it's fall.
• 27:56
  It's time to dress up and wear that warm cozy sweater and get
• 27:59
  that new cozy sweater dress and wear those new cute earrings,
• 28:03
  whatever it is going to be. carlyjeanlosangeles.com has got
• 28:07
  your fall capsule clothing. They've got the basics.
• 28:10
  They've got the pants, the tops, the long sleeve shirts, the cute
• 28:13
  sweaters, the dresses, all of it.
• 28:14
  I just ordered a great pair of jeans from
• 28:16
  carlyjeanlosangeles.com. You're going to love this
• 28:18
  company because it's capsule clothing so you can simplify
• 28:21
  your closet but also make it more sophisticated and the price
• 28:24
  point is great. This is a company that supports
• 28:26
  pregnancy centers and the pro-life movement.
• 28:29
  Again, carlyjeanlosangeles.com is a company that shares your
• 28:32
  values, has adorable clothes, and you can use the code Lila
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  Rose at checkout for 20% off your order.
• 28:38
  So, so then you get engaged. Then how long till he get
• 28:41
  engaged to get married? Seven months.
• 28:43
  Yeah, Yeah. So within a month of him living
• 28:46
  in. The United States, how I
• 28:47
  proposed to it, yeah, that's not the specific like lovely part.
• 28:51
  So. But more than.
• 28:52
  OK. So from the time that we like so
• 28:55
  there was less than a year from the time we started dating till
• 28:57
  we got married, it was short. And did he say, did you get sing
• 29:01
  a song to Cameron? Did you talk about it?
• 29:05
  No, no. Anyway, so all the bloody usual
• 29:07
  is I I called my mate in. Australia.
• 29:09
  Oh yeah, this is the prelude to this.
• 29:11
  Because I had my, I had my engagement ring and I had a good
• 29:15
  friend who said that he prayed that the Lord would give him
• 29:17
  three very specific signs. And within that day, the Lord
• 29:20
  did. And I thought, Gee, there's a
• 29:21
  template to follow. So I asked the Lord for the same
• 29:23
  signs, doesn't matter what they were, but I didn't get him.
• 29:27
  About whether or not to marry. No, because I already had the
• 29:30
  ring. I moved to America with the ring
• 29:32
  and I, you know, sometimes you wonder what the Lord would say
• 29:35
  to you. I didn't hear a voice or
• 29:36
  anything, but in Australia there's a saying.
• 29:38
  It's quite insulting. You're old enough and ugly
• 29:40
  enough to do this yourself. Felt like the Lord was like
• 29:43
  you're old enough and ugly enough to fit.
• 29:44
  Do you want to marry her? My fierce is like we're bloody.
• 29:46
  Right, because we hyper spiritualize.
• 29:48
  So I think that's right. So I called my mate Mark
• 29:52
  Bennett, find a man there never has been.
• 29:55
  And I said, Mark, I'm going to propose I guess, but I'm just
• 29:58
  really scared. I don't know, Maybe I'll make a
• 30:01
  wrong decision here. And his exact words were.
• 30:04
  What the bloody hell are you waiting for, you idiot?
• 30:06
  She's better than you anyway. You should.
• 30:09
  You should propose before she figures that out.
• 30:11
  Wow. So that night I proposed.
• 30:13
  Lock it down. Yeah.
• 30:15
  And then the proposal included an original song by Matt Fred.
• 30:18
  No, this one was a Ben Harper song forever.
• 30:21
  Yeah, that you didn't go original.
• 30:23
  Then we made out. We didn't.
• 30:25
  Just every time you bring it up, I'm going to.
• 30:28
  Do it. I'm like, you just hang me out.
• 30:29
  I'm just like. No so So The funny thing is I
• 30:33
  was a youth minister as well and I was in jeans and AT shirt, no
• 30:36
  makeup, hair and a ponytail. You didn't know it was coming.
• 30:39
  Definitely didn't know and I didn't think you.
• 30:40
  Could get the nails like nails were not.
• 30:42
  Done the nails and I'm not like a dude nail person, but I I
• 30:45
  would do my hair and put on makeup or at least a dress
• 30:48
  something. But I go over and he sings this
• 30:50
  beautiful song and he's sitting on his couch with his guitar and
• 30:53
  it's forever by Ben. Harper It's a lovely song.
• 30:57
  What are the words? What are the words?
• 30:58
  Can you? Can you sing a little line?
• 31:00
  For us. One line, Matt.
• 31:01
  Come on, what happened then? No one line, just one.
• 31:04
  Line. It's not going to happen.
• 31:05
  Just one line. Come on, Matt.
• 31:07
  Matt, you sing on your podcast. Why won't you sing online?
• 31:10
  He really doesn't. Sing, you're trying to stunt my
• 31:12
  views. Or maybe protect?
• 31:14
  Them keep talking about us making outline.
• 31:15
  OK, OK, listen. So then he sings this lovely
• 31:18
  song and I remember thinking that would be a really good song
• 31:21
  to propose to, but not thinking that he's proposing.
• 31:23
  And then he said, let's go for a walk to the church.
• 31:26
  So we walked to a church down the street and they have this
• 31:29
  beautiful Sacred Heart garden and there's all these roses and
• 31:33
  lovely statue of the Sacred Heart.
• 31:35
  And we had a strong devotion to Christ's Sacred Heart.
• 31:38
  And there's candles lit and he leads this amazing long prayer.
• 31:43
  And I remember thinking, if he doesn't propose, I'm punching
• 31:46
  him in the well. Because I also had a bunch of
• 31:48
  candles lit. Yes, I was.
• 31:50
  Gonna say talking about. Toying with a woman's heart if I
• 31:53
  didn't. Propose so the roses and candles
• 31:56
  weren't already at the church. These were.
• 31:57
  Roses. The roses were already there,
• 31:59
  but all the candles? I had I had lit and it had
• 32:02
  someone watch over them. That's a fire hazard.
• 32:04
  Exactly. He's lucky.
• 32:06
  In the heat of the day, it's like during the day.
• 32:09
  It was very dry grass. Actually, it was quite.
• 32:12
  Inappropriate more I think. Gotta get that.
• 32:14
  He let up this beautiful prayer and I just said your will be
• 32:18
  done, Lord, Amen. And he got down on one knee and
• 32:22
  proposed and it was lovely. I said yes, obviously.
• 32:26
  And then, 19 years later, here you are.
• 32:29
  Cracky. So do you think getting down on
• 32:31
  one knee is a really beautiful and good tradition that men
• 32:35
  should do this is a question for both of.
• 32:38
  You comes from but I but I suppose it's just a physical way
• 32:42
  of honoring my beautiful bride. Yeah, I thought it was very
• 32:45
  humbling and yeah. I I love it too.
• 32:49
  That's a Twitter debate. No, I like it very much.
• 32:51
  I I. Think it's.
• 32:52
  If you're. Kneeling.
• 32:54
  Oh, I'm pro kneeling for sure. Well, I'm very I love this
• 32:56
  women. Either proposing or initiating
• 32:59
  the conversation, I think. The the woman shouldn't propose
• 33:01
  is what you're saying that? I think, I think that's, I mean,
• 33:04
  look, it's like tattoos. I have strong opinions, but I'm
• 33:06
  not going to hold you to them. But I do think that a man should
• 33:09
  put himself in the position to get rejected.
• 33:12
  He should love his woman enough to not have to put her in that.
• 33:15
  Position Why? Why is that something only men
• 33:17
  should do versus women? Because men are stronger than
• 33:19
  women. In what way?
• 33:20
  Both. Every way.
• 33:21
  They're stronger emotionally, they're stronger physically.
• 33:24
  And I don't think you and I think because you love your
• 33:27
  wife, you wanna to kneel down and to ask her this question.
• 33:30
  I mean, you're in a very vulnerable position there.
• 33:33
  It's funny you say that because Lisa Carter was on the podcast
• 33:35
  and she was saying that women are stronger emotionally and men
• 33:38
  are stronger physically. OK.
• 33:40
  I think it depends on the individual person as well, of
• 33:42
  course, but I think overall I would agree with that.
• 33:45
  And I think that it also depends on the individual like and also
• 33:49
  depends on the couple. So I feel like a lot of the
• 33:51
  stereotypical, the women's like this, the guys like this are
• 33:55
  reversed on us. I feel like I tend to be more in
• 33:59
  certain aspects. Can you beat him on wrestling?
• 34:02
  I used to like beat him real wrestling.
• 34:04
  I was captain of the right wrestling team to.
• 34:06
  Marry again. Another left turn.
• 34:08
  So my wife was captain of the wrestling team.
• 34:10
  And so we actually fall on break into.
• 34:13
  Wrestling at party sometimes, yeah.
• 34:15
  And I was in a very awkward position, Lila, because if I
• 34:18
  lost. Wait, you would wrestle at
• 34:19
  party? That party trick?
• 34:21
  If I lost, Cameron sucked, and if I won, I sucked.
• 34:24
  True. It's a lose lose awkward
• 34:26
  situation. So would, but Cameron would win,
• 34:28
  it sounds like. Sometimes I would.
• 34:29
  Wow. Think she remembers things the
• 34:31
  way. She Were you married yet?
• 34:32
  Were you married at the hold on? You're right.
• 34:35
  Oh, we would never wrestle unmarried.
• 34:37
  That would have been. No, I think we did actually, but
• 34:39
  not like that. And then what happened?
• 34:44
  No, no, we would. That's not true.
• 34:46
  That's not true. No, here's the thing.
• 34:48
  I get aggressive sometimes and especially if that's something
• 34:51
  that offends me and I just kind of would like push him.
• 34:53
  And that happened. A lot, Cameron.
• 34:55
  It used to early years of marriage.
• 34:56
  I have like health issues now and my bones dislocate so it
• 35:00
  doesn't work as well now. But back then we used to and
• 35:03
  he'd say something and I just fall on.
• 35:05
  But my thing was he didn't know the right he was bigger and
• 35:08
  stronger than me. We would be different weight
• 35:09
  classes, but I knew the wrestling he did the skills.
• 35:12
  I had the skills. So I would get him Like I
• 35:14
  remember this one time I had him in a great hold.
• 35:16
  I'm like, there's no way he's getting out of this.
• 35:17
  And I had him and he stood up and I was like, well, this isn't
• 35:20
  fair. So I.
• 35:20
  Still have him in the hole like hanging on.
• 35:21
  Like across his shoulders and he's just standing up and I'm
• 35:24
  like. Carrying you, you're.
• 35:25
  Definitely different weight classes.
• 35:26
  Would you have guessed that she was captain of the?
• 35:28
  Wrestling, I would not have guessed that.
• 35:30
  I would have guessed, like maybe volleyball or swimming, you
• 35:33
  know, you do seem like you're strong enough, yeah.
• 35:35
  I did soccer. So you're like super in shape.
• 35:37
  Let. Me.
• 35:38
  Let me ask you the question then, because you asked me why
• 35:40
  should man put himself in that position, right, so as to be
• 35:44
  rejected and not expect the woman to do that?
• 35:46
  I think that seems obviously true without having to
• 35:48
  psychoanalyze why, but you would agree with that.
• 35:51
  So why do you think that? Is this pints with the coin?
• 35:53
  Is now Matt? We'll take this clip out.
• 35:56
  Do you have an opinion? On that, I think that women,
• 35:58
  because we are designed to carry life, you know, the, the, we
• 36:03
  share human nature and humanity, but the female can mother, the
• 36:06
  male can mother and the that's why the male, the male is more
• 36:09
  prone towards protecting and provision.
• 36:11
  So be able to empower the female to mother, right?
• 36:15
  And so in that sense, kneeling to offer the ring and whatever
• 36:19
  that sign of protection and humility before the woman is to
• 36:22
  say, I'm here to protect and provide for you, even at cost to
• 36:26
  my own body. So physically nailing is almost
• 36:28
  a sign of that because she's going to have cost to her body
• 36:30
  to carry that life into the world that he doesn't have.
• 36:32
  That is a great answer. I love.
• 36:34
  That I'm going to say that from. You got it.
• 36:38
  It's all you. OK, so here's the question.
• 36:40
  How does someone know that the person that they're dating is
• 36:44
  the one? Because it sounds like for you
• 36:45
  guys, there are lots of twists and turns, sort of signs for
• 36:49
  Matt that he didn't get. Up because I know it's like it's
• 36:51
  hard to try to fit in an entire dating thing in like 20 minutes.
• 36:55
  That's what we're doing, Matt, because it suck it up.
• 36:57
  In one way, it sounds like there are a lot of twists and turns,
• 36:59
  but there really wasn't. It was just two people who got
• 37:02
  to know each other and then didn't want to complicate things
• 37:05
  because it's, and by complicate, I mean make the kind of
• 37:08
  acceptance and declaration that we were romantically attracted.
• 37:11
  Because as soon as we did that, we knew that we would be getting
• 37:14
  married. Yes, because we're not.
• 37:16
  We, we, we didn't waste any time.
• 37:17
  We weren't going to walk around and so that's why.
• 37:21
  How did I know? I just wanted to marry her.
• 37:24
  I wanted her to be the mother of my children.
• 37:25
  I wanted to spend my life with her.
• 37:27
  It was that simple. I think it was, yeah, So, so
• 37:31
  many, so many things. I think the fact that he loved
• 37:35
  me so much, but he loved God even more than me.
• 37:38
  I feel like he had things in right order.
• 37:39
  He loved God first and foremost. He loved me and would put me
• 37:43
  above his own needs, you know, and look out for me.
• 37:47
  And and then I, he was my best friend.
• 37:51
  It was just like, yeah, who else would I want to do life with?
• 37:54
  And my best friend. And I feel like for me, once it
• 37:57
  was and I knew I loved him as my brother in Christ.
• 37:59
  And then once I was like, oh, no, there's definitely more than
• 38:01
  this. And like, I've, I've talked to
• 38:04
  other women and and I have a friend who, yeah, I was
• 38:09
  surprised she was talking to me. She had chemistry with someone
• 38:13
  that was not her husband and I didn't realize she had not had
• 38:17
  that with her husband and she. Never had chemistry with her
• 38:20
  husband. No, no, I don't think so.
• 38:22
  I think it was more these are the right steps.
• 38:25
  So we're going through the steps and I think there's a lot of
• 38:28
  like childhood trauma and things like that.
• 38:30
  But I was like, Oh no, that's like, that's how I feel.
• 38:33
  Because she was talking to me about how she felt about this
• 38:35
  other gentleman. And I was like, but obviously
• 38:37
  you feel that way for your husband.
• 38:39
  And she didn't. And I was like, oh, well, you
• 38:40
  know, that's how we are. Like I've always had that, like
• 38:43
  it. And so just realizing not
• 38:44
  everybody has that do. You think everybody needs that?
• 38:50
  I think to be a fully alive, awake human being, yes, I think
• 38:55
  for me, my heart was hardened in a lot of ways and I was very
• 38:59
  self-sufficient and I was tough and strong.
• 39:02
  I don't need you. I don't need anyone else.
• 39:04
  I'll take care of myself type of person.
• 39:06
  And I think Matt softened me and I think that was part of like
• 39:09
  him seeing my heart and like, it's embarrassing because it's
• 39:14
  so intimate. I think I really grew in, I
• 39:17
  don't think I appreciated my femininity until being a mom and
• 39:22
  being a wife. Like, I think it made me softer
• 39:24
  and made me see the beauty of the feminine and seeing that
• 39:29
  this is strength differently. It's not doing the exact same.
• 39:32
  It's not doing what he can do, but doing it better.
• 39:35
  And yeah. And I learned that through
• 39:37
  through marriage, through letting him love me, and then
• 39:40
  through our kids, too, through my body, like dying to myself
• 39:43
  every time. And yeah.
• 39:45
  What did you advise your friend who came to you with that?
• 39:50
  Well. That predicament, she's
• 39:51
  attracted to someone who's not her husband.
• 39:52
  She's feeling this, he said. I think the chemistry is the
• 39:55
  word, but she didn't have that experience with her own husband.
• 39:59
  But she sounds like she was validly married to her husband,
• 40:02
  yes. And she has an amazing marriage
• 40:04
  now, which is amazing and beautiful.
• 40:06
  Her husband ended up being her knight in shining armor.
• 40:09
  And it was beautiful that she got to see that.
• 40:10
  And then like they have more chemistry now than they did
• 40:14
  their first, I don't know, 15 years of marriage.
• 40:16
  So like it's, it's really beautiful.
• 40:18
  Like I think acknowledging that, like if you find yourself in
• 40:21
  that situation, praying about it, Lord, help me to love my
• 40:24
  husband better. Like help me to desire.
• 40:27
  I think a lot of moms like when we have kids, we have little
• 40:31
  ones all over us and we're constantly giving with our body
• 40:34
  through pregnancy, through breastfeeding, through changing
• 40:37
  diapers. And it's hard to sometimes not
• 40:40
  take your identity and this or just be like, I'm tapped out.
• 40:43
  Like these people are all literally sucking the life out
• 40:46
  of me. And it's like, you also have
• 40:47
  needs, like. And so like having that time to
• 40:50
  take a step back, take a deep breath, you know, go take a bath
• 40:53
  or go on dates and be like, OK, I am still, I'm still life and
• 40:58
  keeping that as. And primarily before your.
• 41:01
  Mother, Yes. Like our children came from our
• 41:04
  love, and so our love is what will continue to sustain them.
• 41:07
  Yes. The love is primacy and that's
• 41:10
  the order, right? It's like, God first, yes,
• 41:12
  spouse, next kids third, obviously your kids physical
• 41:16
  needs. You're not going to like I'm
• 41:17
  going to go out for a week with my the one year old has your
• 41:20
  peanut butter sandwiches. Yeah, but meaning you, you, you
• 41:23
  really make the time for, I mean, you have to make time and
• 41:26
  space for chemistry, right? I mean, you can't just what do
• 41:30
  you got? How do you What's your take on
• 41:32
  that? I did not know what kind of
• 41:33
  podcast this would be. Talk about chemistry, my love.
• 41:37
  Or you. No, no, no, I don't want to.
• 41:39
  Well, I was actually not going to talk about.
• 41:41
  Well, I'm. Not going to talk about no.
• 41:43
  No, no. But I thought of something else
• 41:45
  when you said that. And so there was something that
• 41:47
  we learned when we were missionaries and they called it
• 41:49
  conflict resolution. And so someone does something.
• 41:51
  This is how we keep the chemistry alive.
• 41:53
  Conflict. Resolution conflict.
• 41:55
  I mean, if you have, if you have unresolved conflict, then you're
• 41:58
  and we're adding, you know, you're at each your throats with
• 42:01
  at each other's throats with your spouse.
• 42:03
  I mean, for most people, I think chemistry would be a little
• 42:05
  challenging. So I think that's totally I
• 42:07
  think. We're also really big
• 42:09
  personalities, so I know some people they're like, I've never
• 42:11
  thought in my marriage. I'm like, oh, and then I meet
• 42:13
  them. I'm like, you guys are just so
• 42:15
  phlegmatic, like neither you are get upset over anything.
• 42:18
  And I feel like we're very passionate and we.
• 42:20
  Get, but I think that's even just that point you just made is
• 42:22
  so important because I think when when talking about
• 42:24
  relationships, whether they're dating or married or whatever it
• 42:26
  is, you hear how other people relate to each other.
• 42:30
  And it's so easy to draw poor conclusions for yourself or your
• 42:35
  spouse or whatever, because their situation, their
• 42:37
  temperaments, how they show up to each other, their histories,
• 42:40
  so many differences. And so, you know, I remember
• 42:43
  being told once every couple is unique, as unique as every
• 42:46
  individual is unique. So there's only so much you can
• 42:49
  do with drawing parallels and. Then what often happens is the
• 42:53
  interior workings of somebody else's relationship is usually
• 42:56
  the interior workings they want you to know about or or the
• 42:59
  things they're not most ashamed of.
• 43:01
  And so you end up comparing somebody else's outside to your
• 43:03
  inside. Not a good idea.
• 43:05
  Yeah, yeah. So, but that's one thing that I
• 43:08
  think helps with our with our chemistry is like, if instead of
• 43:11
  getting upset and like sullen and like sitting in it, like
• 43:15
  bringing it up. And when you did this, this
• 43:18
  offended me. This hurt me.
• 43:20
  And it's hard to do that. It's hard to both be the person
• 43:23
  to bring it up, but it's also hard for someone else to bring
• 43:25
  it up. And you're like, OK, I'm sorry.
• 43:28
  I'm the worst at saying sorry. I'm so sorry, but I'm so bad at
• 43:31
  saying sorry. Thank you, Thank you.
• 43:33
  But Matt'll like, bring something up.
• 43:34
  And I'm like, yeah, no, that was your fault.
• 43:36
  And I, like, dwell on a while why it was his fault.
• 43:38
  I'm like, damn, that was my fault.
• 43:41
  And then do you want to do you want to say it again?
• 43:42
  And we'll, you can use the clip and watch it each morning if
• 43:45
  you're saying sorry, but. Then what's funny is even after
• 43:47
  you've done something and you finally admit it's your fault, I
• 43:50
  find that, and I usually hear about it in an accidental way.
• 43:54
  Like I was talking to my friend. I told her how I blew up the
• 43:56
  other day and I was, I'm like, well, you never said to me.
• 44:00
  That you was sorry She apologized to her friend, to
• 44:02
  you, so it's the same thing. I'm sorry, no, but.
• 44:06
  She just said it again, yeah. Yeah, send this clicks to him.
• 44:09
  I'll use some apologizing. You help me be sorry.
• 44:14
  Thank you. Look what you bring out a.
• 44:15
  Therapist at heart, you know it's couples therapy.
• 44:18
  Just yeah, I like, just like my relationship with God is what's
• 44:21
  going to continue to help me love you, you know, like God is
• 44:26
  calling me to sacrifice and God is calling me to repentance when
• 44:29
  I fall short, you know, And so our marriage is beautiful to the
• 44:33
  degree I think it flows from our love and submission to God.
• 44:37
  And I think likewise, like our relationship with our children,
• 44:39
  there's with us is dependent on our relationship.
• 44:43
  So almost chemistry may may be the wrong question because that
• 44:46
  might be putting too much pressure on ourselves.
• 44:48
  Like do I feel enough chemistry? Do I feel enough connection,
• 44:51
  like even that I don't know, just maybe just spend spend more
• 44:55
  time together, more intentional time together.
• 44:56
  So when we were dating in San Diego and had no money and we
• 45:00
  were married with a couple of children, we would go to Costco
• 45:03
  for date nights because we couldn't afford food.
• 45:06
  We ate those. Samples one romantic.
• 45:08
  Oh, so not even the Dollar 50 hot dog?
• 45:10
  Soda. No, no, we wouldn't do that.
• 45:12
  We'd just get the free samples and walk around.
• 45:13
  Yeah. Those are good.
• 45:15
  You can get a full meal and dessert.
• 45:17
  Yeah, you use it. I don't.
• 45:18
  Think they do as many samples now but back in the day.
• 45:20
  You got to go the right time of day because I I go with my boys
• 45:23
  and sometimes I'm like, we're going to get treats and then
• 45:26
  it's like 4:00 PM and there's no treats.
• 45:28
  It has to be the time. I also think I think prayer is
• 45:31
  really important as a couple, but I find it difficult to kind
• 45:35
  of give any kind of advice because I'm afraid it'll put
• 45:37
  just more pressure on people who already feel like they have
• 45:40
  enough pressure on them. So that's not what I'm trying to
• 45:42
  do. So let me just explain to you
• 45:43
  how we pray because I think it's really helpful to people because
• 45:46
  it's not long and it's not dramatic.
• 45:47
  I think a lot of the times we give up on things, it's because
• 45:49
  we feel like we're not good at them and we don't like doing
• 45:52
  things we're not good at because that makes us feel like
• 45:54
  failures. And so we stop doing that thing,
• 45:57
  but one of the ways we pray together is it it'll take like 2
• 46:00
  1/2 minutes or three minutes. So I'll put my hand on Cameron
• 46:03
  and I'll say thank you, God for making my wife and I love her so
• 46:05
  much. And she's very.
• 46:06
  Pretty. No, it's much nicer.
• 46:08
  And then I'll and then I'll ask the Lord to bless her with
• 46:10
  something to give her peace in a particular situation or
• 46:12
  something like that. And then she'll do the same to
• 46:14
  me. And then we pray the Our Father.
• 46:15
  That's our prayer time. So good and I and.
• 46:17
  It's really hard sometimes. Like there's been times where we
• 46:19
  we'll go to bed and we're kind of frustrated with each other.
• 46:21
  And you'll reach out and put your hand on this.
• 46:24
  Just this woman. And praying for patients.
• 46:26
  Let him not be so mean to me. And I think also accepting the
• 46:31
  way you pray. So like Matt is so good.
• 46:34
  Can I have some of that water? Matt is so good.
• 46:36
  Like morning prayer. Matt has like an icon wall and
• 46:40
  he's bowing and kissing icons. There's incense.
• 46:43
  It's amazing. He's singing all these prayers
• 46:45
  and it's beautiful. And then I'm laying in bed,
• 46:49
  sometimes looking in that direction, sometimes not, but
• 46:51
  kind of praying along and I'm like, yeah, Jesus, I just.
• 46:56
  And and then like afterwards, but I never got out of bed
• 46:58
  afterwards. If you asked me later in the
• 47:00
  day, how was your prayer this morning?
• 47:01
  I was like, it was so beautiful. I loved it.
• 47:04
  Like the Lord just really showed up.
• 47:06
  But I really felt it, heard it. But how was your prayer time?
• 47:08
  It could have been better. Like he's the one bowing and
• 47:11
  he's doing everything. And I'm like.
• 47:13
  That's the different. Don't have mercy.
• 47:14
  I like kind of TuneIn a little. Bit OK.
• 47:16
  What temperament is that then, Cameron?
• 47:18
  I am very much Kalaric saying Kalaric.
• 47:21
  If you look up the word kalaric in the dictionary, there was a
• 47:23
  photo of my wife. And I'm Sanguin too.
• 47:24
  I don't have any phagmatic. We don't.
• 47:26
  Between the two of us, there's not a single phagmatic trait.
• 47:28
  It's exhausting. It's so tired.
• 47:30
  And you're. I don't have any melancholic
• 47:32
  either. I'm.
• 47:32
  Just I'm melancholic, caloric. Okay, now I.
• 47:35
  Think about death way too much, but if you ask me, it's just the
• 47:38
  right amount. But I think that was really good
• 47:40
  advice because yes, I think, you know, how do you keep your
• 47:44
  marriage strong? And I was going to be a
• 47:46
  question. You guys have moved a lot.
• 47:47
  You have your podcast, you have your company, you know, you work
• 47:51
  together to some degree. You're obviously raising your
• 47:53
  kids, You homeschool, you're homeschooling your kids.
• 47:57
  What are the ages? 15/13/11.
• 48:03
  OK, so you've got a lot of kids and they're these 9 to 15.
• 48:08
  So these very kind of. Am I 15 year old is taller than
• 48:11
  me? He's 62 and he always me.
• 48:13
  How sweet, big guy. And so you're doing a lot.
• 48:16
  I think you've moved a lot in the last few years.
• 48:18
  Ever. Like you're always moving.
• 48:19
  So we got married in Texas. We lived in Ireland for three
• 48:22
  years, Canada, San Diego, Georgia, now Ohio.
• 48:26
  So just always, not recently. So, so the question is, you
• 48:28
  know, how do you keep your marriage strong?
• 48:30
  And maybe you already answered that, but maybe a more.
• 48:33
  Analogy. And the analogy is with
• 48:35
  friendship. If you meet somebody who you
• 48:37
  naturally get along with and then you spend a significant
• 48:40
  amount of time with them because you get along so well and you
• 48:43
  maybe share the same interests, you're never kind of forced to
• 48:45
  go deeper in that relationship. Whereas if you are kind of
• 48:48
  required to spend time with somebody who might be a
• 48:50
  different personality to you and you have to have more conflicts
• 48:53
  with them, it feels to me that the more you can have a conflict
• 48:56
  in a, in a way that's charitable and respectful, it kind of
• 48:58
  strengthens that relationship. It's like, OK, this is strong
• 49:01
  enough to handle some of these blows, you know?
• 49:03
  And so I would say how, how, how does our marriage, how, how was,
• 49:07
  has it remained strong? Does it grow strong?
• 49:08
  I think it is through like you can always go deeper, you know,
• 49:11
  like, and I, I don't want to do that.
• 49:13
  I want to, I want to know who you are.
• 49:14
  I want to love that beautiful Cameron.
• 49:16
  And I don't just want to love who I think you are.
• 49:18
  I don't just want to love who you think you are.
• 49:20
  I want to get to know you more and more.
• 49:22
  Of course, as we continue to try to get to know each other, we're
• 49:24
  also dealing with our own defense mechanisms, our own
• 49:27
  woundedness that kind of reacts against the other, especially in
• 49:30
  those vulnerable places. You know, people often say don't
• 49:33
  be defensive, but if you're being attacked, defensive is
• 49:35
  precisely what you should be. And sometimes.
• 49:38
  Someone's trying to wrestle you. Yeah, You have to fight back.
• 49:40
  I'm sorry. And so I think, you know, that's
• 49:43
  always a constant thing. And I think for if our marriage
• 49:46
  is to remain beautiful and strong, we have to keep
• 49:49
  wrestling like it has. We can't give up.
• 49:51
  We can't stop wrestling. Yeah, physically and otherwise.
• 49:54
  Yeah, maybe physically, but not. Yeah, I think also like through
• 49:58
  trials, like through trials, your marriage is strengthened,
• 50:01
  it's tested. It is hard.
• 50:04
  We've had our fair share of crosses through through our
• 50:08
  marriage. And I think choosing to love the
• 50:11
  other even when it's hard, you know, yeah, I, yeah, I think
• 50:20
  that yeah, choosing to love the person even when it gets hard.
• 50:23
  Because I feel like, I think we live in a society where, like,
• 50:25
  it's supposed to be easy. So if you don't feel in love,
• 50:27
  then just stop. And it's like.
• 50:30
  It's like, yes, exactly so gaudy Metspez, which is a document
• 50:34
  that came out of the Second Vatican Council, Catholic Church
• 50:37
  jargon within it, it says when God is forgotten, the creature
• 50:41
  grows unintelligible, Right. So if we forget God and his
• 50:45
  revelation, then we forget who we are and what we're for.
• 50:49
  And if you meet a man who doesn't know who he is or what
• 50:51
  he's about, he can truly be said to be lost.
• 50:53
  And so I think when a, a person in this lost state, since he
• 50:57
  can't remain without a narrative, has to come up with
• 50:59
  1. And I think without God, without
• 51:02
  the recognition of our own wretchedness, our need to repent
• 51:05
  and grow in sanctity, we seek to build a utopia in our country,
• 51:10
  in our city, in our life. And I have to have a perfect
• 51:13
  little life because that's what life's about.
• 51:15
  It's about being happy. Of course, she reads in Thomas
• 51:17
  Aquinas and he says the perfect happiness isn't possible in this
• 51:19
  life, which would just make everybody take a deep breath.
• 51:21
  Thank goodness I thought there was something wrong with me, and
• 51:24
  there is. But that's not why you're not
• 51:25
  happy. It's because you don't yet.
• 51:27
  You have not yet attained the fulfillment of all your desires,
• 51:29
  namely God and the beatific vision.
• 51:31
  So I think once you can accept that you kind of meant not to be
• 51:34
  happy and that life isn't about creating this perfect little
• 51:37
  marriage and this perfect little family.
• 51:39
  It's this is a spiritual battle that is the context of our
• 51:42
  lives, a brutal spiritual battle against your heart.
• 51:45
  There is an enemy who hates you and wants to drag you to hell.
• 51:48
  That's that's life. And I think if you forget that,
• 51:51
  then your life stops making sense.
• 51:54
  And you're in the. Battle marriage is a battle.
• 51:55
  You're in the battle together. Yes, and, and Satan knows your
• 51:58
  heart. He knows my heart and he's going
• 52:00
  to find the weakest spot in both of our hearts and and
• 52:03
  collectively as a couple. And that's where prayer, even
• 52:07
  that simple prayer of the two minutes like you said, and the
• 52:11
  saying the sorry, you know, some of these very fundamentals.
• 52:15
  Or like mercy, like showing mercy to each other.
• 52:17
  Like, I think, yeah, we've had, you know, a lot of hard times
• 52:23
  where one of us is suffering greatly and it causes us both to
• 52:26
  suffer and just giving the other mercy and patience or even like
• 52:31
  we were talking, we're like, why?
• 52:32
  Why has things been? We've had a lot going on.
• 52:34
  It's been very stressful. And it's like, OK, yes, there's
• 52:37
  all these reasons. Like we can list like 10 things
• 52:40
  and like any one of those gives you stress, let alone all of
• 52:43
  them at once. Like it's very overwhelming and
• 52:45
  it's OK. We just need to give each other
• 52:48
  the grace and the mercy and just cling to God and cling to our
• 52:52
  faith and be like, OK, you've got to get us through this.
• 52:55
  Yeah. And not turn, not think the
• 52:57
  others the enemy. I think sometimes we think that
• 52:59
  like it's his fault, like he's the reason why.
• 53:02
  And, and I think Satan's done a great job there because it's not
• 53:05
  the two of us fighting against him.
• 53:06
  It's US turning and fighting against each other, which is
• 53:09
  ugly. There's a new baby coming in
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• 53:47
  If you if you want to share what is the hardest or one of the
• 53:50
  very hardest things you've had to face and what did facing it
• 53:54
  look like? Well, I mean, just generally
• 53:58
  more, it's more general, but it doesn't mean it's not, I think
• 54:00
  insightful. And that is I think when we get
• 54:02
  married, even though we think, OK, I want to serve this person.
• 54:06
  I want to love this person. You, you obviously think you're
• 54:10
  doing it for yourself. Like you want to have a friend,
• 54:13
  you want to have a lifelong companion, like you want to have
• 54:16
  a beautiful love life, you want to have children.
• 54:20
  And so I think maybe as you grow in your relationship, realizing
• 54:28
  how much was about you and how much you wanted that other
• 54:31
  person, not for their own sake, but for your sake and and then
• 54:36
  having to recalibrate and go, OK, this wow.
• 54:38
  This is I meant to give my life for her, meant to die for her.
• 54:41
  Oh God, that was what I signed up to.
• 54:43
  Yes, OK, I knew that. I nodded sagely when others said
• 54:46
  it. But now I'm I'm realizing it
• 54:48
  again. And I think that's why our
• 54:50
  relationship with God is so important, right?
• 54:52
  Because if I'm upset with her or if we're fighting, God commands
• 54:56
  me to love her. And if I abandoned her, I will
• 54:59
  go to hell. And so quite.
• 55:02
  Literally without repentance. Yes, yes, this is true.
• 55:06
  So they're Speaking of. Mercy, so I, I don't have an
• 55:09
  option here. So maybe it's the
• 55:11
  disappointments of life. Like we, we have disappointments
• 55:14
  with ourselves, right? As we, as we grow older, we look
• 55:17
  uglier. As we grow older, we, we get
• 55:19
  fatter maybe or we, some stuff goes wrong with our body.
• 55:22
  Like there's disappointments in your own life and now you've
• 55:26
  become one flesh with this other person who's also getting older
• 55:29
  and sicker. I mean, I'm maybe it sounds like
• 55:31
  I'm, maybe it sounds like I'm being hyperbolic, but I mean,
• 55:33
  the longer you're with somebody, obviously there's
• 55:35
  disappointments that take place in this one flesh.
• 55:38
  And so in those situations, to still pursue the other and not
• 55:42
  to, what do you think? Yeah, I think I agree with what
• 55:47
  you're saying, but I think so I have a lot of health issues and
• 55:50
  I think that's really hard. And I think like that's where
• 55:54
  you're coming from with growing older and healthier.
• 55:57
  Like, so I was mid 30s when I had a miscarriage that I ended
• 56:02
  up in the ICU, I went septic with and I got crazy sick.
• 56:05
  And then when I got out of the ICU, I couldn't walk.
• 56:07
  And so I went from being a pretty healthy normal mom to
• 56:11
  really sick. And that was really hard.
• 56:13
  And then I have all these autoimmune diseases and other
• 56:15
  things. And it's just, it's, I find that
• 56:17
  really hard for our marriage that I, there's constantly
• 56:21
  things we can't do because of me.
• 56:23
  So it's like if I'm having a healthy day, great, we'll go do
• 56:25
  something. But if I'm not, I need to stay
• 56:27
  in this recliner and I have a heat blanket on all day and it
• 56:31
  stinks and it's really, really humbling and, and like, I'm OK
• 56:36
  for it for me. Like I'm like, OK, Lord, if you
• 56:38
  call me to suffer, I'm fine with that.
• 56:40
  I will suffer. I will offer it up.
• 56:41
  You will give me the grace. It'll be great.
• 56:43
  But I really don't like it when it affects my husband and my
• 56:46
  children. Like that's where I feel bad.
• 56:48
  That's where I'm like, this is the worst or.
• 56:51
  Yeah, but at at our best, right? Like at my best, I recognize
• 56:54
  that this is this is, this is the, this is the cure for my own
• 56:59
  arrogance and pride. This is what will save me.
• 57:01
  And the same thing with the ways I'm across to you.
• 57:04
  Like the things that we don't want in each other or the things
• 57:07
  that we wish hadn't have eventuated in our family or our
• 57:09
  living situation or whatever is the thing we have to submit to
• 57:12
  is the will of God. Because I often think I would
• 57:15
  much rather God tell me to do XY and Z in order to be a St.
• 57:20
  But often it's not about doing. It's about submitting to the
• 57:23
  will of God with gentleness and peace and patience.
• 57:27
  And that's hard. The meek being meek, that's a
• 57:33
  word that I think we it's not a one for the modern sensibility.
• 57:37
  Yeah, gentleness with others, like often say, like if God said
• 57:41
  I need you to do the Bible on a year podcast, that's how you be
• 57:43
  saved. I can, I can crush that.
• 57:45
  But if God says go home and don't cause any unnecessary
• 57:49
  grief to your family, I'd be like, well, I'm screwed.
• 57:51
  I don't know how to do that. Like, so it's like, I think
• 57:54
  often those are the things that the Lord wants us to.
• 57:57
  So good. All right.
• 57:59
  The other thing I really wanted to hear from you guys is some
• 58:02
  parenting stuff. I've only got a almost 2 and a 3
• 58:06
  1/2, but you know, we have a lot of parents who listen to the
• 58:09
  podcast and you're in the you've done the elementary years, I
• 58:13
  guess. So now you're heading into the
• 58:14
  high school years. A couple things in particular as
• 58:18
  parents. First of all, how do you manage?
• 58:20
  You know, you're busy with work. I think Matt, you sometimes say
• 58:24
  I don't work very much, but you're like pumping out
• 58:26
  podcasts. I.
• 58:27
  Work more than I think. Yeah, probably.
• 58:29
  You seem to have a very sanguine attitude about your choleric,
• 58:31
  melancholic life. So but anyways, you've got
• 58:35
  you've got, you've got all this work.
• 58:37
  You're doing, you have done a lot of work too.
• 58:38
  You've got your podcast, you're also homeschooling.
• 58:41
  So how do you how, how do you kind of set up your family life
• 58:44
  and your kind of day-to-day with your kids to even do the
• 58:48
  homeschool thing and feel like you're doing it successfully?
• 58:52
  So I joke that I am the best at homeschooling when I pay other
• 58:56
  people to do it for me. That's a great.
• 58:58
  Strategy. Cameron So I had this girl every
• 59:01
  time she had a birthday, I love Juliana was my was my helper.
• 59:04
  And every time she'd have a birthday, I'm like, wait,
• 59:06
  weren't you, weren't you already 14?
• 59:08
  Weren't you already 15? Weren't you?
• 59:09
  Now she's like in college, but she like would teach my kids and
• 59:13
  we did like a homeschool hybrid and they listened to her and
• 59:15
  they did great with her and she had tons of patience.
• 59:17
  So she's a high, she's a high school.
• 59:18
  She was in No, no, no. I think she was like 7th grade
• 59:20
  when she started teaching my kids.
• 59:22
  But my kids were your kids ages, right?
• 59:24
  And it was smart. It was so great so.
• 59:26
  And she, she loved it. She had to.
• 59:27
  Get loved it, yeah. You to be fairness to you, you
• 59:30
  were facilitating Yes, I. Was.
• 59:32
  Yes, but you have the curriculum.
• 59:34
  The seven-year old going to get they have vodka in the living.
• 59:36
  Got the pencils out, but is this 'cause you didn't feel like an
• 59:40
  affinity towards the teaching? Party it was never difficult for
• 59:43
  I never wanted to homeschool my kids.
• 59:45
  I never thought that that's something I would do.
• 59:47
  I just the families in which we kept hanging out with all the
• 59:51
  families that I saw and I was like, I want my family to look
• 59:53
  like that family. They homeschooled very
• 59:55
  differently, but they all homeschooled and I was like, OK,
• 59:58
  maybe I could do that. I'm pretty sure I'm dyslexic.
• 1:00:01
  I have learning disabilities. I had ADD before it was cool.
• 1:00:04
  I was like the only kid in my school with ADD so I'm probably
• 1:00:08
  not the best to but I also. I hated sitting in a desk.
• 1:00:12
  So I don't make my kids they have desk now, certain ones
• 1:00:14
  because they like a desk. They wanted a desk.
• 1:00:16
  I'm OK with that. But like like I have one
• 1:00:19
  daughter who's like, mom, I found this great hand hand
• 1:00:21
  handwriting workbook. Can I please, please get it?
• 1:00:24
  And I'm like, I mean, sure, you, yeah, you can get it, you know,
• 1:00:27
  so. I just want to write with a
• 1:00:28
  pencil on a paper. Yeah, 10 years old.
• 1:00:30
  Sure, go for it. Just.
• 1:00:32
  Kidding. So I think giving a lot of
• 1:00:35
  grace, but like my thing with homeschooling is bare minimum is
• 1:00:40
  so great and it's so much better than so many other schools.
• 1:00:42
  So is that unschooling? No, I don't quite.
• 1:00:45
  So no, no, I do like I actually teach my kids things and.
• 1:00:49
  But I think the point you would make is if all you did was take
• 1:00:52
  your kids out of the public schools and read good books
• 1:00:54
  occasionally, that's better. They would be head and shoulders
• 1:00:56
  above everybody. So that'll do.
• 1:00:58
  Yeah. So, and I'm sorry, I want to
• 1:00:59
  because I want to hear you talk about this because I think it's
• 1:01:01
  going to be just a bomb to like hurting hearts right now.
• 1:01:06
  The wrong question for a homeschooling mother to ask is
• 1:01:09
  am I doing enough? The answer is no, you can't do
• 1:01:12
  enough because we're. Homeschooling, I mean
• 1:01:14
  effectively because I don't plan anytime soon to put them in a
• 1:01:17
  school. I don't know if we will and but
• 1:01:19
  I'm not doing. I mean, we have a workbook.
• 1:01:22
  You don't even. Scribbles in but he's not 4 yet
• 1:01:25
  so that's where I'm like OK I I think but no, don't be a tie
• 1:01:28
  him. Like, go outside and look at the
• 1:01:30
  flower, look at the bee pollinating the flower.
• 1:01:32
  Have a conversation about that. Like, that's homeschooling.
• 1:01:35
  So our youngest, was he 5 or 6 when he wanted bees?
• 1:01:40
  6/7. Yeah, then you find out all the
• 1:01:42
  things I want to know. So now he's a beekeeper.
• 1:01:44
  How does the tomato plant? We got a tomato plant because he
• 1:01:46
  got potty trained. So we got a little pot.
• 1:01:48
  We put a seed in it and it grew into a plant.
• 1:01:50
  Now it has tomatoes on it. He wants to know how that all
• 1:01:52
  happened. That's great.
• 1:01:53
  Like the sun, the water created this tomato.
• 1:01:57
  Plant, yes. There's a lot of processes that
• 1:02:00
  I can't explain that went into this.
• 1:02:03
  But that's huge. Like that's you homeschooling
• 1:02:05
  your kid and just doing that. So he was like 4 or five
• 1:02:08
  wannabes. We waited till he was like 7
• 1:02:11
  maybe. Matt got him bees.
• 1:02:12
  So he's a beekeeper and he loves it.
• 1:02:15
  He So just recently unfortunately some moth got into
• 1:02:17
  the beehive, but someone was there helping him with is.
• 1:02:21
  There, honey. Yeah, Oh yeah, tons.
• 1:02:23
  It's amazing. It's so delicious.
• 1:02:24
  But, but Peter was telling this guy all about all of these
• 1:02:27
  mouths at their worst 'cause they eat all the and they look
• 1:02:30
  like, and I'm like, well, why do the bees not?
• 1:02:32
  And so he's answering all these questions from a bee documentary
• 1:02:35
  he watched, right. And so it's not like I taught
• 1:02:37
  him all that, but he learned it all because he was interested.
• 1:02:40
  Or like he went on this Ant kick for a weekend and he had like 8
• 1:02:44
  different Ant hives that he dug up and found the eggs and the
• 1:02:48
  queen and all this stuff. And like I got him three books
• 1:02:52
  on ants and he just loved it and like ran with it.
• 1:02:55
  And so like he was talking to so this, this is my youngest.
• 1:02:58
  He was talking to a friend of his, and it's like, mom, have
• 1:03:00
  you ever heard of science? And I was like, yeah, no, I've
• 1:03:03
  heard of science, honey. And it was like, how come I
• 1:03:04
  don't do that? I've never done science.
• 1:03:06
  And I was like, Peter, you do science all the time.
• 1:03:08
  But I never made him sit down and say, and now we're going.
• 1:03:11
  To have. Interesting science.
• 1:03:13
  Right. He goes and catches lizards like
• 1:03:15
  he's always doing science. He loves it.
• 1:03:17
  I think you really do science when you get to cut up a little
• 1:03:21
  pig, you do that. What is it?
• 1:03:23
  You do the. To dissection.
• 1:03:24
  Dissection. Birthday party?
• 1:03:25
  Or is that too too? Oh.
• 1:03:27
  Gosh, did you have you guys done that?
• 1:03:28
  Yet, well, we've done more. Biology.
• 1:03:30
  Anyways, that's when well. The thing may have been.
• 1:03:31
  Is so terrifying. Oh no.
• 1:03:33
  Do you want me to? Tell you.
• 1:03:34
  Oh no, seriously, you keep you. Guys live in kind of in the
• 1:03:37
  boons, right? Well.
• 1:03:39
  No, we're, we're just out of main.
• 1:03:40
  Street I just. Think if there's a little
• 1:03:42
  country ish they'd like. To but our.
• 1:03:44
  Our son OK, our son just loves things like this so we have
• 1:03:47
  friends that have like butchered chickens and quails.
• 1:03:49
  We. Live in the hillsides of sure.
• 1:03:52
  Of Ohio, we'll give them, yes. OK, sure.
• 1:03:54
  And you have a big backyard. Yeah, we do.
• 1:03:56
  I know 'cause we've been, we've been over.
• 1:03:58
  Oh yeah, Yeah. So.
• 1:03:59
  But you're saying you, we think. It's hunting and we get to.
• 1:04:02
  Butcher things, Come on. Our girls have never been
• 1:04:04
  hunting. I've never been hunting, but our
• 1:04:05
  boys have with Matt and they enjoy it and they talk about it.
• 1:04:08
  And so I think the main thing is with homeschooling, like you
• 1:04:13
  don't have to do enough. Like like all you have to do is
• 1:04:16
  do you love your children? Your children are bonded to you.
• 1:04:19
  All moms are really good in the beginning with just that.
• 1:04:22
  But somehow we think when they turn 5, or maybe you have to go
• 1:04:25
  back to work and they're three months old and you think now
• 1:04:28
  it's not my job, I can't do the best with taking care of them.
• 1:04:31
  So here this preschool for babies that will do best.
• 1:04:35
  No, that breaks your heart. You don't want to do it.
• 1:04:37
  Some moms have to. And I am so sorry for those moms
• 1:04:40
  that do. I had my first in Ireland.
• 1:04:42
  I had nine months of like 90% of my pay maternity leave.
• 1:04:45
  It was ridiculous. And I did work the beginning
• 1:04:48
  years with our kids, but I worked with them because we're
• 1:04:50
  doing missionary work. So they were able to be with me.
• 1:04:52
  But I knew what was best for them all the time.
• 1:04:54
  I wouldn't go to Chick-fil-A and let that person tell me what I
• 1:04:58
  should feed my kids. It's like, no, no, no, I know
• 1:05:00
  what they're going to have. I'm going to feed them.
• 1:05:02
  I'm going to take care of them. But for some reason, we've been
• 1:05:04
  taught in our society when they turn 5, you know nothing.
• 1:05:08
  Now you need this expert who can teach your child.
• 1:05:12
  They will teach them how to read.
• 1:05:13
  They will teach them how to write their name.
• 1:05:14
  They will teach all these things.
• 1:05:15
  You are not capable of doing that.
• 1:05:18
  I know how to write my name. I know how to read.
• 1:05:21
  I may not be the best qualified to teach anyone's kids.
• 1:05:24
  I don't have the teacher skill to manage a classroom of 30
• 1:05:27
  students. But I am this child's mother and
• 1:05:30
  I love him and her that like I love my child more than anyone
• 1:05:33
  else in the world. So who better for them to learn
• 1:05:35
  from than me? And we can hire the 7th grader
• 1:05:38
  if you need. Exactly if you need the 7th
• 1:05:40
  grade. If they're in the home and
• 1:05:41
  you're, you're involved in each step, and I think that it is,
• 1:05:46
  you know, if people haven't been homeschooled or been close to
• 1:05:48
  homeschooling, I think it can seem overwhelming.
• 1:05:51
  And I think a lot of times whatever grade your child's in,
• 1:05:54
  like say you have a third grader, how, how long do you do
• 1:05:57
  homework with that third grader? If you homeschool them, you'll
• 1:06:00
  just do the same amount of work that homework, just bring it to
• 1:06:02
  the morning because they do better in the morning.
• 1:06:04
  And it's really like I my main thing with my kids is I want to
• 1:06:07
  teach them what is good, what is true and what is beautiful.
• 1:06:11
  That's it. I want them to know the Lord,
• 1:06:13
  love him and serve Him. That's it.
• 1:06:16
  Some of them are great at reading, others aren't.
• 1:06:19
  I My oldest was dyslexic, dysgraphia and dyscalculia and I
• 1:06:26
  thought the kid would never write his name.
• 1:06:27
  Two of those things mean. Right, it's his writing.
• 1:06:30
  He could be a doctor with his writing, but but he can write
• 1:06:33
  his name now. But in first grade, I struggled
• 1:06:36
  so hard thinking he could never write, Like, I don't know.
• 1:06:39
  And and then there's things that it's like, OK.
• 1:06:41
  That our children get to have beautiful, leisurely days with
• 1:06:43
  each other, don't they? They get to lay.
• 1:06:45
  In and they love each other they love hanging out with each other
• 1:06:47
  they love hanging out with me people meet my kids and they
• 1:06:50
  just love them other kids love them you're Peter loved mine you
• 1:06:53
  know like there's. The dead, He still talks about
• 1:06:55
  them. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:06:56
  And it's just like being there for each other and you learn
• 1:07:00
  life skills. Like there was this one year
• 1:07:02
  when I got really, really sick and I, I had just gotten out of
• 1:07:06
  the hospital. My oldest was 7 and, and I just
• 1:07:09
  was so sick. I couldn't homeschool him.
• 1:07:11
  My other kids went to like this little Catholic Montessori
• 1:07:14
  school, but he just stayed with me.
• 1:07:15
  And, and I remember we were living at a life teen camp and
• 1:07:19
  one of the missionaries came up to me and said, can I tell you
• 1:07:21
  what your 7 year old did to me today?
• 1:07:22
  I was like, no, oh gosh, what happened?
• 1:07:25
  But she's like, I wasn't feeling good and I was curled up and he
• 1:07:29
  came over and he rubbed my back and said I'm so sorry you're not
• 1:07:31
  feeling good. Are you on your period?
• 1:07:33
  Would you like me to get you something to eat or drink?
• 1:07:35
  Can I do anything for you? I did not know, but let's not
• 1:07:40
  say his name. Don't embarrass me, I won't say.
• 1:07:41
  Which child it was, but it was a 7 year old boy and so this girl
• 1:07:45
  was just telling me I love like how empathetic your child.
• 1:07:48
  And how but also how not, but also how non shameful periods
• 1:07:52
  are, how like non sexualized they are.
• 1:07:54
  Like, you know, I think that's actually there's something
• 1:07:56
  really important and healthy there.
• 1:07:57
  Yeah. And just like a naturalness to
• 1:07:59
  it. Yeah, and he learned empathy
• 1:08:01
  that year. I try to do math with him maybe
• 1:08:03
  once a week. Like, I kind of failed at it
• 1:08:05
  that year of homeschooling. But I was trying to survive.
• 1:08:08
  I was trying to live. We've got to do a podcast
• 1:08:10
  episode, Cameron, just on the priming The Primer for
• 1:08:14
  homeschooling by Cameron Fred. Yes, because your style of
• 1:08:17
  homeschooling sounds right up my alley.
• 1:08:20
  And probably a lot of people listening.
• 1:08:22
  I mean, maybe you need a little land where you can have the Ant
• 1:08:25
  hive on it. Yeah.
• 1:08:26
  So you're gonna have to find a way to get the Ant hive.
• 1:08:27
  But it's, I mean, it's it's very encouraging.
• 1:08:30
  I kind of grew up free range like that, which I feel like
• 1:08:32
  it's a blessing and motivate. And we were homeschooled and it
• 1:08:34
  was a lot of free range time. Oh you'll be great then.
• 1:08:36
  I I am so I I wish I was one of y'all like my friends that were
• 1:08:41
  homeschooled have such peace and confidence.
• 1:08:43
  I've been more of a white knuckler.
• 1:08:44
  I don't have I, I don't know that I have the peace or the
• 1:08:46
  confidence yet. Yeah.
• 1:08:48
  So I think my parents did a great job, but they also worked
• 1:08:51
  hard. I feel like it's interesting.
• 1:08:52
  There's a lot of free range, but they did work really hard.
• 1:08:54
  Like we learned the Latin, we learned even some of the Old
• 1:08:58
  Testament Greek or the New Testament Greek, excuse me, I
• 1:09:00
  don't even remember. But we learned all these things
• 1:09:02
  because they like took the time, you know, So there was a lot of
• 1:09:06
  intentionality. I think that's the part and I'm,
• 1:09:08
  you know, oh, can I be intentional enough to do the
• 1:09:10
  things? What are the things you know but
• 1:09:13
  I'm so early in the journey? Yeah, you are.
• 1:09:15
  I have some time. And that's why I like beginning
• 1:09:17
  with just pull your kids out of school and do nothing and
• 1:09:19
  they'll be way better off. Just do that, dude.
• 1:09:21
  Can you do nothing? I can do that.
• 1:09:22
  OK, Just do that. Yeah.
• 1:09:23
  And then it's like, can you download Audible?
• 1:09:25
  Can you play a few good books? Let me give you a handful of
• 1:09:28
  which. Ones OK, one more, one more
• 1:09:29
  burning question on kids. Speaking of Audible and
• 1:09:33
  documentaries, what's your take on screen time?
• 1:09:40
  Screen time. Well, I think younger years it's
• 1:09:42
  not needed. Yes.
• 1:09:44
  No, I think ideally keep your children away from all screens.
• 1:09:47
  Yeah, we would. We have something like one of
• 1:09:50
  our kids said to someone else, they were watching a movie like
• 1:09:52
  you guys do Fraud Family Movie Night and they were like really
• 1:09:55
  excited because that's what we called it when when our kids
• 1:09:57
  were really little. That's and still now we try to
• 1:09:59
  do Fraud Family movie night one night a week and we sit down and
• 1:10:02
  watch a movie as a family, but we've never really had channels
• 1:10:05
  or. So no cartoons for the kids?
• 1:10:08
  I. Don't we see again, I don't want
• 1:10:10
  to put stuff on other people. If you're asking us what we do,
• 1:10:13
  I'm happy to do that, but I don't.
• 1:10:14
  Know your recommendation, your advice.
• 1:10:16
  Generally speaking, I, I. Think like you're sure.
• 1:10:18
  Not to shame anyone, my kids watch cartoons sometimes.
• 1:10:21
  So we our kids watch cartoons sometimes too.
• 1:10:23
  And sometimes it was needed. Like I, I don't.
• 1:10:25
  Like, I don't. I mean, like, we need some of
• 1:10:26
  the classic old school Disney stuff.
• 1:10:28
  Winnie the Pooh, Jungle Book. Yeah.
• 1:10:30
  Yeah. I'm like this has some, I'm a
• 1:10:32
  big. Fan art to this I'd say
• 1:10:33
  Fantasia. When I was when I was a teenager
• 1:10:37
  or a young kid, my parents would always get on me for not eating
• 1:10:41
  fruit, not eating vegetables. And but I thought I, I, I look
• 1:10:45
  back now like, well, why would I have?
• 1:10:46
  I mean, you had this, the pantry was stocked with like chips and
• 1:10:50
  the fridge had Coca-Cola. Like, so next to that, why would
• 1:10:54
  I do what's good for me? And I think there's an analogy
• 1:10:57
  there to screens. Like if I'm letting my children
• 1:11:00
  watch cartoons play on iPads, why would they ever pick up a
• 1:11:04
  book? Why would they ever sit and look
• 1:11:07
  at the stars or just play with friends?
• 1:11:10
  So we are very strict about our children not using technology,
• 1:11:15
  modern technology. And we find other families who
• 1:11:17
  feel that way about you. Of course, you wouldn't give
• 1:11:19
  your child a phone and that sort of thing.
• 1:11:21
  And we'll, we'll, we'll play with them.
• 1:11:22
  We'll hang out with them so that they don't feel like freaks.
• 1:11:24
  And and then when you get to a right age, like our 15 year old
• 1:11:28
  has like a Gab phone or like a really locked down.
• 1:11:31
  And so it's like, OK, well now that you're here, but when we
• 1:11:34
  were younger, I had a niece that visited and she had a phone.
• 1:11:38
  I think they were maybe junior high age ish, maybe like 5th,
• 1:11:42
  6th grade. And I took her phone and put it
• 1:11:44
  on top of the fridge. And I was like, when and if you
• 1:11:45
  want to call your mom, you can let me know.
• 1:11:48
  And but we lived in Georgia and we had like 5 acres and there
• 1:11:52
  was a Creek and there was trails that they would run and play and
• 1:11:55
  she goes swimming and they just had a blast.
• 1:11:57
  And I remember her saying like, I don't even care about.
• 1:11:59
  And I was like, let me know if you want to use your phone to
• 1:12:01
  call your mom. She's like, I don't even care.
• 1:12:02
  There's so many fun things to do.
• 1:12:03
  I don't need it. And so I think that giving them
• 1:12:06
  the option, giving them, yeah, like we do other things and then
• 1:12:10
  we're not big TV people where we don't sit and watch TV a lot.
• 1:12:14
  Matt was really good about reading in the evenings for our
• 1:12:17
  kids. He still does.
• 1:12:18
  And I like do art with them as they're doing it.
• 1:12:20
  So like just providing other things.
• 1:12:22
  And like we have neighbors that comment, but there's always a
• 1:12:25
  game of tag or something going on.
• 1:12:26
  Our front lawn is like really big, right?
• 1:12:28
  And so there's always neighbor kids coming and doing stuff and
• 1:12:31
  playing. And it's just those are the
• 1:12:33
  other people we've chosen to be near and there's or just yeah,
• 1:12:38
  interacting with each other beautifully and it.
• 1:12:40
  Helps to have community. Yeah, it helps to have
• 1:12:42
  community, but I don't think that we're like anti technology.
• 1:12:45
  Like if you let your kids watch a movie, that's wrong.
• 1:12:48
  I try to choose more beautiful movies to watch, but yeah.
• 1:12:54
  I think that's encouraging because you didn't say you're
• 1:12:56
  they're going to die if they watch, if they watch some
• 1:12:58
  cartoons. But I think it generally, I mean
• 1:13:00
  it makes sense. Yeah, and then they decide for
• 1:13:02
  themselves. So there was some movie, I don't
• 1:13:04
  remember what it was, but we decided to watch it and our 15
• 1:13:07
  year old said he wouldn't watch it because he took a stands.
• 1:13:10
  It wasn't immoral, but do you remember when?
• 1:13:12
  It was like Disney pushing, pushing tranny crap on kids.
• 1:13:15
  Oh wow. And so he's like, no.
• 1:13:17
  Bad stuff out there. What?
• 1:13:18
  Can I say I think it was a movie I saw and I didn't think it was
• 1:13:20
  bad. Can I tell you what's really
• 1:13:21
  encouraging? He's he's like hardcore, yeah.
• 1:13:24
  He's not 4, which is great. It's good, right?
• 1:13:26
  Because the the modern work propaganda is as off putting to
• 1:13:30
  the younger generation today as let's say Christian bad
• 1:13:34
  propaganda was in the 80s and 90s.
• 1:13:36
  I think if they're for, if they've got a good ground level,
• 1:13:39
  you know, they, they've, they've developed a sort of a taste for
• 1:13:42
  the good stuff because they've been exposed to good stuff as
• 1:13:45
  kids if they've been supposed to trash their whole life.
• 1:13:47
  It's hard. Wonderful.
• 1:13:50
  I agree when? They're not.
• 1:13:51
  It's a lot of. There's no, I don't think you
• 1:13:55
  can find a lukewarm genzier like you just got hot.
• 1:13:58
  It's. True.
• 1:13:59
  It's true. Guys, this has been awesome.
• 1:14:01
  We should do this again come back out to California, bring
• 1:14:04
  the kids, do some some playing. I mean, we've got it.
• 1:14:07
  We we don't have the live on the not the rural.
• 1:14:11
  I know I said you guys live in the boondocks, but we don't have
• 1:14:13
  an Ant farm in her backyard. But I know Peter would love to
• 1:14:16
  play with Peter again. Yes, definitely.
• 1:14:18
  So thanks so much. And then your podcast, where can
• 1:14:20
  people find them? I think podcast app maybe or.
• 1:14:24
  YouTube I have a dumb question. Look what's the name?
• 1:14:27
  What's the? Name among the lilies?
• 1:14:28
  Not what was the other one? Vodka in the linen closet?
• 1:14:30
  Not vodka. In the lips among the lilies,
• 1:14:32
  among the lilies. You'll find it, yeah.
• 1:14:34
  And then yours is something about like a cup with a a.
• 1:14:37
  Priest or something? Oh.
• 1:14:39
  OK, cups with the cups with. Augustine above the school I
• 1:14:42
  forget. OK, Pine Swift something that
• 1:14:45
  guy. Famous, very famous guy.
• 1:14:47
  Thanks guys. Thank you.
• 1:14:48
  Awesome. That's.
• 1:14:49
  OK, thank you guys for listening to this episode of the Lila Rose
• 1:14:53
  podcast. It was so fun to have Matt and
• 1:14:55
  Cameron on the show. As always, don't forget to
• 1:14:57
  subscribe. Don't forget to leave a review
• 1:14:59
  on the podcast app. If you think of it, that will
• 1:15:02
  help the podcast reach more people.
• 1:15:03
  And if you haven't already joined the Patreon community,
• 1:15:06
  please do. That will help the podcast reach
• 1:15:08
  more people, and we'll see you guys next time.