Latest / The Good Builder Podcast / The Daily Dose #304 | Your People Are the Business | Julie Bolitho on Hiring, HR and Workforce Planning
Transcript
- Aaron Ng (00:17) Well, good morning and welcome to the Good Builder Podcast. This one has been a long time coming, actually. ⁓ I I would say that this is actually a longtime friend, more than just a podcast guest. my guest today is Julie, and she's an absolute legend. She's been in the industry for about 30 years, not on the tools, but worked in various roles across HIA, wasn't it, Julie? you've done a lot. In the space of recruitment, in HR, in apprenticeship programs, you know all about the apprenticeship development programs and were part of those sorts of things. ⁓ a lot of people in the industry actually know Julie, and I was introduced by a bunch of people who said you've got to know Julie. and she's just been a wonderful, wonderful lady to know and support the good builder. But also, I think what she does is critically important to Every business out there, whether you're a trade, you're a supplier, or a builder, the more I do this good builder thing, the more I realize that people are at the core of your business. And I'm probably in that position right now. And I just had a quick chat to Julie before the podcast where I'm like, hey, you know, I need to do things a bit differently and I probably need a bit of resource. So we bring on the best in the business in Australia for construction, Julie Bolitho and it is so great to have you at the podcast. How are you? I'm great, thank you. It's so good to see you again. You know, we behind the scenes for everyone out there, I've caught up with Julie a few times. We've caught up in North Brizzy for coffee with the great Brett out there who's with Steelline But ⁓ you know, ever since I've known you, Julie, you've always just wanted the best, you know, for builders out there. And you know, finding the best people. But could you tell me a little bit about your history and sort of where it all began with construction for you? I think for me it started at the ripe old age of sixteen. Yeah, wow. So left school in year eleven when I was acceptable to leave school in year ten or eleven. Yeah. And ⁓ actually started out working for a land surveying company. And at the time, was only female in the office in a group of guys, which was pretty interesting for a young person. And then ⁓ really liked the drafting side of the business. So started studying drafting at TAFE on the Gold Coast and ⁓ at 16 years of age was in a room with all you know gentlemen and the only female in the group. So I've seen a massive transition along my journey working in the building industry and then working I suppose from both parts of a business from that business operational side through to work In employment programs and strategic employment and things like that. Yeah. What's what do you reckon is the biggest difference since you since 16 years old, Julie? What's it been? Do you think it's come a long way in terms of equality and women in construction? I still think there's a bit of a lag, to be honest. I don't think they get as we talked about, presented the positions or opportunities they should quick enough sometimes. Yeah, I think for females there seems to be some females. females have an inner doubt factor where you know if a guy looks a job out and there's ten dot points for what you need then all of a sudden they're like, yeah, I can do this, whereas ⁓ some of the females might see see that and go, I can only do five of those. I might not apply or go for the next job kind of thing. So I think there's that disparity there. And then also I definitely see in a lot of roles that And this is from the interviewing perspective that you know you're going for role and you might say, Yeah, I want a hundred thousand. Whereas ⁓ if I'm interviewing a female, they might go, ⁓ do you think I'd get eighty-eight thousand or something like that? So they're less courageous, I think, in some of those conversations than they could be. You know what I loved about what you just said, Julie? Like, you know, the whole you you've got the history there and you know, now you're doing it. Yeah. For women in the industry, aren't you? Like every day. So I kind of I didn't forget about that, don't get me wrong, Julie, but when you were just talking about you see what it is like now and you still see that you know, maybe women lack their value in the industry. They but You know, they just don't know what they're valued at. Is that is that sort of true, Julie? Is what you're sort of still seeing? Yeah, yeah, I do see that. ⁓ definitely when you're interviewing and you can interview for exactly the same role. And ⁓ there's less courage around, you know, this is what I want, this is what I need, this is how I want to make it happen, or do you think I'd be able to work from home one day a week? Whereas gotta be like, no, Friday night I have this with my boys or take my boys to footy, I've got to have them at comp. I need to finish work at midday on Fridays. Can you tell them that kind of thing? So there's definitely a lack of yeah, I think females need to back themselves in a little bit more. I reckon that's a great takeaway, Julie. I was just about to say that. I was saying if there's something that I can take away from this and then what a great start to the pod, like what a cool piece of you know, information from you and a and and a bit of a gesture to all the women out there to say, hey, you know, value yourself. Yes you're as good as the blokes. You know what you're doing and well ⁓ and proofs in the pudding, Julie, you know I well we always talk and we know each other. I used to work for GJ Gardner. And you look at all the offices and which offices ran well and what were good building businesses, you know who really ran them? It was usually the wife, the partner in the background. You know what I mean? And we would we would find that. Like we would find that out and our builders would be happy to talk about that. But yeah, maybe in the broader industry it's a bit different when you're not in that partnership with your husband and you don't have your own business and you're going for roles in amongst the wildness of all the different men out there and stuff like that. So interesting. Well tell us a little bit about ⁓ dedicated staffing solutions and and what you're doing there right now what you specialise in you can name some builders if you want you don't have to if you don't want but I reckon I would have a few builders that I want to make an introduction to you because as I said, I know you personally, I know you professionally and I know your reputation and you you're amazing. So yeah. So tell us a little bit about what you do there and how you help build us. Okay. So ⁓ I suppose from our angle, the one area we really specialise is ⁓ the building space and that's probably coming from deep background in the industry. and having worked at whether it's Housing Industry Association or at Trade College or Apprenticeships Queensland actually going out and knowing you're talking to builders, you're talking to trades, you're actually understanding what their pain points are when it comes to hiring, firing staff. So we really sit in that space of being able to deliver a really balanced service. Some companies deliver just recruitment, some deliver just human resources where we're able to deliver both to our clients. So we can help out with the difficult conversations that bosses need to have or we can help out with you know future proofing their Business through workforce planning and looking at their pipeline of work that's coming through, or on the alternative side, you know, what to sort of like if things are slowing down and what you need to do to make sure that your company is still powering on, even if you are reducing down by staff. well, I love it, and there's two things there, Julie. One thing is for me, whenever a builder I asks them where's your HR department, and they say it's me, I cringe. So I think that's a really good thing. You don't have to you don't have to say anything, but I think a better solution is Always ⁓ DSS and and you know having a professional handle those conversations. HR's gotten trickier as society's changed and rules have changed and all that sort of thing. and then on the on the on the people side of things and the recruitment side of things, you know, for us when we're at in builders that I've worked with and consulted with in the past, recruitment was We found out. I don't think we ever nailed it because we were builders and we never had that professional side to them like you have, but it is the most important thing and it's something you've got to take a lot of time, a lot of focus on. It is everything to a business. Would you sort of agree there? Like recruitment sort of getting the right person to sit in that seat. Yeah. ⁓ they're the face of your business, they're the face of your team, they're face of, you know, either success or toxicity potentially. Yeah. They're the face. of clients sort of ringing you up on a Friday and saying, Hey, I spoke to such and such and they weren't very nice to me on the phone. I think I might take my business elsewhere. yeah. Your staff are the most important asset in your business. ⁓ absolutely. And you know what the coolest thing is, Julie? You because of your experience, you know what a good person within a building business looks like. You've seen a building business from the inside since the age of sixteen, really. So you know what they need. You y you know, even to the degree of you know, sometimes the environments that people work in because it's different, isn't it? I I I was ⁓ sorry to keep talking about me, Julie. This is about you, you buy this podcast, but you know, when I ⁓ before I worked at GJ Gardner, I was working for Murvac, which is a commercial builder, a different beast to to a residential builder, and then I was working for Kmart. And You know, I'm quite a fun guy, I think. So when I went to building, I really loved it. I loved the conferences. I was probably the first guy drunk and the first guy sleeping on the floor, as well. So I loved all that environment, but you gotta know what you're getting into too. So you gotta find the right the right people or stuff like that. Well, speaking about that, Julie, where do you see most builders get unstuck with ⁓ hiring and, you know, or managing people in their businesses? Where do you see that sort of happening right now? I think the biggest ⁓ Not mistake, but there's definitely issues around, you know, husband-wife, husband and partner, ⁓ husbands getting busy or wives getting busy in the business, and that then creates problems in relation to not just work but taking work home or work is at home and that can either help the business or hinder the business, depending on how you're able to manage. that work relationship, home relationship and also not just husband and wife but mum and dad businesses with kids working in the business, how does that filter down? what ethics are being passed down when you're employing your own staff members that are family or friends and I always have clients that have said they made the biggest mistake when their best friend's son has come to join the business and they love their best friend to death, but you know, they didn't even cue on to their best friend saying, you know, he's always drunk and he's done this and he'd done that and he's lost his licence and he's done all these things and next thing you know, they're working in that person's business. So nepot nepotism in business is not a great thing. Yeah. Yeah. And and I see it happen a lot. Yeah. Actually I bumped into someone yesterday that had just employed a best friend. And they said, yeah, yeah, but it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. And I I'd actually said to them, Have you done it in the past? Yeah, but this time's different. Okay. That's what they actually said to me. And this was yesterday, Julie. And it and it is like that, you know, ⁓ It's a it's a different relationship, I think. You know, if you want to be good, you've got to be professional and unless you can clearly delineate the relationship and I don't know many people that can, I think it's very hard sort of to work in that environment. Julie's ⁓ yeah, really interesting. Well, one of the other things actually, I'm looking at my little notes here, is you posted recently about candidates using AI. Okay. ⁓ you know, to get through applications and interviews and things like that. I actually spoke with Ash Turner from Glenville Homes, and that's probably an introduction that I need to make if you don't already deal with Ash, but he would love you because they're looking to scale. he said that a lot of people running contracts to AI. So you're seeing the same with job applications and then it making their resumes and things like that. So you can be pretty easily led astray when that sort of happens. What what are you sort of seeing out there, Julie? From an application perspective, it's quite interesting where you would receive say a cover letter that looks like, you know, three different people apply for the same job and the cover letter looks so similar. there's no dissimilarities and they're literally grabbing the job ad, cut and paste, drop it into AI, write me a cover letter, or they'll do the same sort of thing. They'll drop and drag the job ad and then they'll put their base resume and they'll say tailor this to this specific job, which Sounds great in theory, but then you get that person in front of you and undertake an interview and you start drilling down on some of those things that they're saying in the resume and they're just looking at me like What are you talking about? Somebody else's resume because that doesn't sound like me at all. So you don't let them use chat GPT and a resume. Well, actually some of do have scripts you can s not see, you can see them kind of they'll be talking and they'll look up to their script, which is that preparatory Preparation, is that good? Do you give them, you know, kudos for that or not? that's a hard one. You know what? That's a really interesting point about getting three cover letters from three different people that all sound the same. And it makes sense. And that is probably a really good warning for employers. But Usually the other thing is like I said, with the recruitment, I think you've got to be really focused. And if you aren't, you'll miss that. And that's why it's again good to have a professional. And it actually makes sense, Julie. I'm going off on a tangent, but the other day I saw a really good post on LinkedIn and I was like busy and I'm like, I want to comment. Copied and pasted the LinkedIn post, put it into Claude, put out a response, was about to copy and paste that response. I looked at the other responses and there was one that was nearly identical as my response from someone totally different. And I was like, Whoa, wait a minute. I thought my AI would be different to your AI, but you are even seeing that in that space. It's wow. So how do you get through that, Julie? Is it do you do you think it's the The ability, like you obviously know, you know, the interview psychology and different things about what to ask. Is that how you kind of, you know, get the wolves from the sheep or I don't know if that's the right word. Is that how you're doing it? It's ⁓ I suppose there's a lot of back end before you get to the interview stage. So there's a basic pre screening that we'll go through. Okay. ⁓ just that behavioral technique while you're interviewing somebody, looking at how they're ⁓ presenting themselves during the interview. Are there any key sort of indicators from body language point of view that they might not be telling the truth? there's so many things you can look at. And I think social media is great, but if you're saying you've worked for Bob the Builder for five years, Barry the Builder for three years, and somebody else for two years, but then I go to you LinkedIn and look up your name and you've worked somewhere for six months, three months, four months, ten months, they're good indicators that Highly likely you're not going to be great for that job. Yeah. Because if you're putting somebody into one of your clients' businesses, you want them to be motivated, reliable, passionate, and to be able to deliver for that client. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, that's that's really interesting. And maybe a point. Would you say, as a recruiter, for people that are working in this industry, that LinkedIn is a good platform for them to join and put a professional profile up even if you aren't posting a lot. Do you look at that stuff when you're trying to find the right fit for a yes for a builder? Okay. That's a great tip for everyone out there. Yeah, we'll do a social media check. That check. And even through our applicant tracking system, it actually links our candidates name through two potential matches into their social media profiles. But it doesn't link to Instagram yet, which is interesting. I would like it to link to Instagram, but Yeah. And so actually, sorry, I'm going on a tangent now, but is that using AI, Julie? What you're using at the moment in in the back end of your business? ⁓ it's in our actual applicant tracking system. It has that functionality, but they're actually transitioning at the moment, going through AI, ⁓ looking at Whether from a application point of view, if they can implement some sort of AI to, you know, basically say this would be the best applicant based on your job description. So even our software that is back end running our candidate database. They're looking at AI and how they can best match as well. my goodness. It it just shows the importance I think. I think for builders, trades, anyone out there looking to get a position. I I always think, you know, I'm a bit of a pest on social media and I probably should stop being a pest, but I won't. But like I think it's important for people to yeah have profiles and and I think in this industry that was a you know we've never actually talked about it on the platform. And I think it brings The industry to a more professional standpoint as well when you start to think about those type of things and how your career's gonna kind of progress. And what what are you representing to the industry, you know, when you do that? ⁓ Instagram's a bit interesting. I don't know if I'm up I'm I'm on the fence with that one or or I'm off the fence with that one, Julie, but probably. I'm probably siding with I mean, whenever I've employed somebody, I always look at their Instagram because you get the personal feel for what they're about and who they really are underneath the LinkedIn ⁓ cover. Or do you? Or do you just get the Instagram cover of that person? Or yeah. You've got me down another rabbit hole, Jewel. You probably you probably do. How do you actually find the real one? ⁓ very interesting. Well The other thing that I think is really interesting is and I think we're gonna head into a very interesting period coming up with the twenty thirty two games. having the right people. I've heard things like, you know, estimators and things like that are in high demand and they're paying some big dollars in commercial. What would be your advice to any builder that thinks they're gonna get under the pump coming up? what would you do? We know they're gonna be under the pump and we know that we already have a trade shortage and we know we have this happening. I think that ⁓ my advice would be and most builders are doing and tradespeople, but im incorporate some sort of program in your business where you're actually taking on right now cadets, apprenticeship, apprentices, ⁓ trainees. So You're having these young people come in potentially, it don't have to be young people, but they're actually coming in, undertaking the trade skill or cadet chip in estimating, drafting, whatever it is within your business. And that will take them that period of time. They're studying, they're learning, they're earning with you. ⁓ but by the time you need them to be in that seat powering on, you've mentored them with the best employees in your business or the best tradespeople in your business. And One great thing the HIA did with a lot of builders was partner with them when I was there with relation to apprenticeships programs where the builder themselves would subsidize their trade people or tradespeople, their best tradies or contractors, and have apprentices working with them. And each week when they were working on those jobs, then they would subsidize as part of that hourly rate of that apprentice. Because they knew if, you know, tilers are hard to come by. And all of a sudden they can put apprentices with their very best tiler. In three or four years, they're gonna have another group of tilers that have come through that system to then grow and grow and grow. So you're replicating your best trades and your best drafters, your best estimators, your best contracts admin, because you're actually putting a young person in that traineeship, apprenticeship place or cadetship space to learn from them. I love you. I've never thought about that's what I mean about recruitment is so important. You talked about it then. No one's ever talked about it like that with me so strategically as a part of your almost business plan? Workforce planning for success, really. Yeah. Could you tell a little bit more about it? Like you probably just talked about it, but do you actually help builders implement that? Okay. I think this is a very important point. I had a quick meeting with the QBCC couple of weeks ago, Danny there and big shout out to her, she's amazing, the regional manager up here. And you know what she s she said something along the lines of, ⁓ and they do a great job, you know, to keep busy and HIA and everybody, you know, but she said, I'll she feels like there's been a bit of a generational sort of failure in a way of and because our industry's quite interesting, as we talked about before the podcast off air and and I was saying that, you know, it's quite disjointed and there's all this stuff going on everywhere. That there's like There wasn't anyone kind of, you know, getting the knowledge from good builders and good old builders and passing it down to the next generation. And I think for a business, same sort of thing with the function, I think that's really important to do so. I was fascinated with how you do that. So could you talk about how you work with a builder to do that? You can set up that with them. Sure. Yeah. So that's I suppose where you work with clients and sort of talk through what's their workflow look like. So say it is a tiler, for example, one of our tilers at the moment. Moment. What he's starting to do also is tag in his employees into job posts and actually recommending that if you're thinking about applying for this job, talk to my guys that are working here. Don't just take it from me or don't just take it from him. Don't just take that as word of mouth, but actually take it from the employees that are sitting in the business and that's the trades and the apprentices that has actually shared their social media, social media handles and posts and things like that to I suppose look at things in an alternative way. Like don't just take it at an employer's face value. Actually contact somebody and say, hey you work in the business, is he really a good guy? Is it a really good company? What sort of jobs are you working on? That sort of thing. Being that transparent and available we're talking That's amazing. Yeah. And we need more of that in the industry. And you said before, like, I'm going to this grayer event tonight, for example. And you were saying before, like, isn't it good to like gray is a a different kind of level, but like with this, isn't it good to show the pathway of what can be achieved? And that would enable that. If they had the social handle, they could be going, Hey, you know, this is going on today. I learned this today. Yes. I'm doing this today. This is what I'm up to. How cool is that, Julie? Yeah, that's awesome. Wow. That's really amazing. Well, ⁓ I've got a couple more questions left for you, unfortunately, but I am I would like to have you back on. Let's let's continue this, Julie, because off air, she's a mate. On air, she's an absolute weapon, and as I said, the best in recruitment and HR for the construction industry. And I stand by that. I know people who know you, big businesses that work with you, Julie. I'm not just saying it because we've known each other for a few years, but I really want to get, you know, a few builders in front of you. And I think this part of their business is critical. And we've never had anyone on in this sort of space. So okay, well. Well if the manu pressure is really. Okay. I'm gonna talk about leadership. We can cut all of this. Okay. Yeah. For those that follow Julie and that know her, you know, you've you've talked a little bit about leaders, you know, standing in front of their teams and talking about the stuff when times get hard and all of that sort of thing. why does it so much or why do you think it's so important for teams to be like that when things are hard? I think that ⁓ we've all probably worked somewhere where you're like, Wow, my boss is great, he'll buy us beers or buy us pizza or we'll take us on an event or we'll do something. But then when there's really, really tough conversations, your boss is cow cowering in the corner and not the one standing there alongside of you. So you see it where you almost need the boss to have the warmth of a cuddle but then the fist of, you know, somebody that's just one ⁓ state of origin series. We won't say whether that's Morones or this cell just yet, but quite Well, that's pretty controversial the morning off, but anyway. Yeah. Yeah. So we definitely need ⁓ a strong leader in front of a team. And I think that particularly when nepot nepotism comes into play If you've got a boss who's a little bit softer and they've employed their best mate and the best mate's like, Hey, I'm going to the state of origin, I'm probably going to get smashed. I might might turn up for work tomorrow. Is that okay? No, it's not. Yeah. It's not okay for everybody to do that in the business. So it's not okay for you to do that. So I find that unacceptable. And even though you're my friend, yeah. I'm really sorry, mate, but you need to respect me and my business working here. Yeah, yeah. No, that's great. And I think it's ⁓ something we're a really good industry and it's something that I've seen that I think we either are one way or the other is what I've seen a lot of. You there's some really ones that are really happy to have a hard conversation and they might not have it in the right way sometimes. And then you do have a lot of mateship in our industry and we'll do anything for each other. So, you know, if Johnny doesn't turn up the next day, we kind of cover for him and we kind of kick on and yeah, we'll probably swear at him when he comes on site, but you know, it's accepted in a way. I I think you're completely right with that, Julie. Do you see that a lot in the better people that you recruit? For versus sons that you've worked for in the past, but the leadership is strong. Yeah, I think there's a group of people that are just coming through businesses now. ⁓ and I suppose for me I've seen this entrepreneurial sort of they've gone into a trade, they've come out of the trade, they've started whether it's their trade business, their building business, but they've really taken on external leadership I suppose or external coaching where rather than just think small, they've thought big and they've had somebody sort of on their sideline as a business coach or entrepreneurial coach or somebody that's actually said to them, Don't just think that way, like think this way. And then they've got that person to back them as well to say, hey Yeah. Be the leader. Stand up, be proud of where you are in your business and how well you've done. And don't feel that you need to sort of drop your shoulders. You're actually done bloody well to where be where you are. Yeah. And stand in front of your team and be really proud. And if somebody doesn't fit your values as a client, then we're okay with walking away with it from a business perspective. And that's the leader that you want to work alongside. Yeah, well I love it, Julie. So you're seeing more of that now. Do you think really? That's where the shift is. That's pretty cool. No, I think yeah, and I think it's as we've become more professional, haven't we? And you and you do see some of the the younger guys and it's the the inspiration of the older builders of what they're achieved. I think now they're they're looking to go on the pathway. So I think that's a great piece of advice. Well, ⁓ I've just got one more question for you, Julie. But as I said, we're gonna have you back on and we'll talk deeper. I want to get some updates about what's going on as we get closer to the Olympics and you know, see how this trade should. shortage kind of goes and what's happening and we probably don't want to comment on migration, do you? Skilled migration? I feel like would you like to? I wouldn't mind to ask you actually. I feel like it has a place. There's some trades that we just cannot we just cannot fill and apprentices aren't willing to put their hand up for and either we change throughout the schooling program and as parents and leaders the mindset of young people. to get in and want to become a brickie, a concrete, then we're going to have to use skilled external workers or it's skilled external workers that take on, you know, RTO training here. Yeah, it's a difficult question. I personally, when I started my business, my first goal was to employ a trainee. It wasn't to put on somebody at the full wage rate or or anything like that. It was actually put on a trainee and be able to deliver and share my skills with somebody who could learn from I suppose learn from me and learn in the business. And I think that's a really good gift in a business to be able to offer. sort of handing down your skill sets or handing on or sharing skill. And then the other side of that is a young person quite often can teach you so many things. Yeah. No, 100%. And I thank you for sharing your opinion on that. It is a very tricky question because I'm the same. You look around and you're looking at the shortage of bricklayers and and ⁓ you know how I said off air, you know, Julie and I had a chat and I'd talk about this Netflix thing, the octopus while and and about going down rabbit holes. So I went down a rabbit hole Julie on bricklayers. And there's just not going to be enough bricklayers. And the average age of a bricklayer is like 60 years old. My father in law just retired last month. He was 69 and a great bricklayer. But you look at it all and you're trying to find your way of and we're trying to report on things and we're trying to shape up the story and go, ⁓ you know, are we actually going to achieve this? And in the end, you're completely right. We're not going to. We need trades, we need skilled migration. But yeah, how do you do it? And I don't know if you get involved in that. The area of jewelling, but I haven't. I kind of think after working with a number of y young people at different schools and working at the Australian Industry Trade College, it actually showed you that there's so many people that actually want to get into a trade, but I love it. The AITC model, which is now the industry school, the one thing that you see in that space is Which I think brings more success for longevity and an apprenticeship where a young person won't just go out and work with a plumber. They might think they want to be a plumber or they won't want to be a tiler, they might want to be a brickie. But because they've got work experience, they can go out and do those for blocks and actually go, I don't like plumbing. Yeah. And then they actually find their niche, they commit to that trade and undertake that trade skill. So I think that I don't not want to have skilled migration but I would prefer for our young people in Australia and you know, they're all our own children to have a trade or traineeship pathway opportunity before we did look at external. Love it. Absolutely love it. And you've got a really good view on all that because of your apprenticeship thing and I and I do love your point again, Julie, of we need to change the mindsets of you know, 'cause you know we're we're of a similar generation. Our generation, if you quit you know, when you quit school, you're a dropout. Yeah. You know, I remember I went to uni because I didn't want to be a dropout. I thought it was it like and I won't go into my past, but like I didn't have parents around. So I was just like, I just don't want to be a dropout. And you don't really know that you're not a dropout. You're actually Building Australia. And to be honest, it's probably the best business to get into. I wish I dropped out, looking back on everything. But anyway, one more question for the wonderful Julie, which we're gonna have you back on, as I said, and I'm a bit sad because it is our last question. But anyway, you know we're called the good builder here, Julia, the good builder, which is quite repetitive. For the third time, what makes a good builder? Can I pause? I just wrote that down on here. Yeah, go for it. I've got it. That was my question that I said. And and we can cut over. Like, I've stuffed up before. What do I have to ask? I didn't realise you're stuffed up. ⁓ my god. Okay. This is a really good pod too jewel. You've said some really like none of these conversations we've ever had. It's really cool. Okay. Okay. So ⁓ if you want to read it first, hang on, yeah. Have it, take your time. Peter Wood from Advent read the whole hour and a half podcast. He had sheets the whole time. God love him. He's allergic to He's a sweetheart. he is. And he'd just read it and then I didn't care. I was just like, whatever. I love that. When I've spoken to him a couple of times. And I've talked to him for reference checks. He's so approachable, even though the the job that he's playing of the role he's playing with average are like blood in hell. I know. But you're so approachable and you can volunteer for so many things, okay. he's a weapon. He's a weapon. Okay. Good blade. I should have put it bigger so I could actually read it. Anyway, see how we're going. Okay, that's it. Alright. Do you want me to start it again? Yeah. We'll cut it again, Ray. Okay. All right. Julie, one last question for you. And as I said, we're gonna have you back on because I love what you do. you know we're called the good builder. What do you think makes a good builder? For me, working in the industry for so long, I think that one thing that really stands out to me is a good builder is somebody that embraces tra change and looks at market trends so that they're not just set in stone and stuck back in nineteen seventy. They have realised you know things have changed. somebody who has somewhat of an entrepreneurial mindset where they actually can foresee the benefits of looking after their people. And somebody that is that true leader who will step up when they need to step up, step aside when they need to step aside and step down when they need to step down. And also give somebody a hug when they need a hug. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. I agree with everything I think our industry can do with a little more hugs. I think our industry can do with some really strong leaders as well in the businesses and will be better for it. Making those good decisions. You said during the podcast actually, Julie, like even the decision of if it's not the right Don't work with them. You've got to have belief in yourself. You gave me some belief actually before the podcast in The Good Builder, and I thank you so much for being on here. as I said, we're gonna have Julie back on. We're gonna put all the links below so you can get in touch with Julie. And if you need people, builders out there, please get in touch with Julie because she is the best in the business. So thank you so much for everything, Julie. It's been really appreciated. Yeah, wonderful. Thank you. Thanks. Appreciate it.