Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E268: Beyond the Stigma: Rethinking Same-Sex Attraction in the Church | Lila Rose Show

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E268: Beyond the Stigma: Rethinking Same-Sex Attraction in the Church | Lila Rose Show · The Lila Rose Show

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  It's almost like we forget how to be Christian when someone
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  says homosexuality and it's really sad.
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  That's not how God deals with us.
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  I thought because I had same sex attraction and I wanted to
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  follow Christ, that meant I wasn't allowed to even want to
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  be happy, Thomas Aquinas says. Acknowledging you want to be
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  happy is the beginning of the spiritual life.
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  What is order? Not just the sexuality, because
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  everybody gets freaked out. Just in life, there's order to a
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  world. If there's not, it's called
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  chaos. That is a point of controversy.
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  I just clinched when he said that.
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  Well, I want you to respond to this because.
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  The differences between male and female homosexuality reveal
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  something essential about male and female sexuality.
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  Not one person walking this earth was raised by a perfect
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  mother and a perfect father. Jesus said be born again.
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  Is it possible to find freedom from unwanted sexual
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  attractions, and should Christians even try to do that?
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  What resources and ministries do churches offer and where is
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  there need for improvement? And what is the full Christian
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  vision of human flourishing that incorporates sexuality,
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  psychology and spirituality? Welcome back to the Lila Rose
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  show. Today we are talking with three
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  amazing guests, Andrew Comiskey, Kim Zember, and Michael Gasparo,
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  who bring expertise, ministry experience, and deeply personal
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  stories that they vulnerably share on the path towards
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  wholeness, integration, and picking up your cross.
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  So many people today are confused about purpose,
• 1:24
  sexuality, and identity. And as always, our goal with
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  this podcast and the community we're building at the Lila Rose
• 1:30
  Show is to bring clarity to a confused world.
• 1:34
  The quickest and easiest way that you can support this
• 1:36
  mission is by ensuring that you're subscribed, sharing this
• 1:38
  podcast with a friend and leaving us a like and a comment.
• 1:41
  You can also support our mission to bring Truth over at
• 1:44
  patreon.com/lila Rose Show, so for ad free episodes and access
• 1:48
  to upcoming guests and more. Okay, I'm so excited for today.
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  Thank you all for coming in. I've been looking forward to
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  this panel of these esteemed guests for some time.
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  Andrew. Welcome, Kim.
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  I'm so glad you're back. Michael, so happy you're here
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  again. We haven't had you yet on the
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  show, Andrew. So I thought we could start with
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  a brief introduction and reintroduction of Kim and
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  Michael, who are favorites here on the show.
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  So welcome. Thank you so much for joining.
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  I'm here with two favorites. Hey, we're all fans of each
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  other to be a part of this team. So Andrew here, California guy,
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  so happy to be with you here. And yeah, I got into the whole
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  gay thing pretty early on as a teenager, young adult, I had a
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  lot of freedom to do that, but I was kind of bound up as a result
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  of it. So weird thing, the cultural
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  thing was very freeing for me, but internally there was a
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  growing unrest. And the effect of that was to
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  break ground in my heart for Jesus.
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  I I wasn't a Christian and I knew that.
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  Any kind of help and hope beyond the intensity of my homosexual
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  identification and relationships was going to have to be divine.
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  I, I, I knew it had something to do with the greater power
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  displacing something or filling something or in the end, just
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  loving me. Which is of course, who Jesus is
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  and what he does. So becoming a Christian was just
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  core and Jesus became my hope. I can't say I could articulate a
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  hope beyond Jesus. It wasn't a hope for a family
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  or, you know, sort of a normal life.
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  Honestly, I'm a Californian. Normal is not appealing.
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  Normal is not a value. So that wasn't a big, a big
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  thing, but Jesus was a big thing.
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  And the effect of that was a long process of, of restoration
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  and rediscovering who I was as a man and, or maybe discovering
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  for the first time. And, and then the freedom to
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  begin to, to move into what I believe our sexuality is for.
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  And that for me involved the freedom to engage with a
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  beautiful young woman that I met and to begin the process not
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  only of a family, but at my pastor's request.
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  I, I was a, a student at UCLAI was part of the first Vineyard
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  Church, a cool free church thing.
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  And my pastor said, would you please start helping people?
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  Because there's many like you who are trying to get a footing
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  in this community. And I can't do it all, which is
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  a really great, humble thing for a pastor, or in this case, a
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  pastoral team to say. And so my wife and I simply
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  began to meet with people in West Hollywood and to discover
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  what was helpful, what was hurtful, and to begin to give
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  people a fighting chance to become a part of this dynamic
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  community. I'll, I'll move very quickly.
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  Had children and so on, which is great children and so on.
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  Harder to raise a family than it is to come out of homosexuality,
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  let me tell you. But the ministry continued to
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  grow. And in the process of that I
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  discovered Saint John Paul, the second theology of the body and
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  and so I became a Catholic. So John Paul had a really
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  converting influence significantly because of
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  theology of the body, which is probably the best Christian
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  exhortation as to who man can be for woman and woman for man.
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  So that was really amazing for me.
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  And now the work I do is basically a pastoral application
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  of theology of the body, helping lay people to gather together in
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  their various faith communities and actually to work out some of
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  these profound and shameful areas together in the church.
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  Not not as something over and against the church, but
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  something that is simply a part of what the church offers.
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  And so that's my story and I'm sticking to it, Lila.
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  I cannot deny it, Lila. I I love it.
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  And the name of your ministry. Is Desert Stream is the ministry
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  and this, these, this group that we help people to run is called
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  Living Waters. And I think and we're going to
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  get to Kim and Michael here in a moment, but you were saying
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  before we all when we first saw it down before the camera
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  started rolling. This is a organization that
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  doesn't just serve people with same sex attraction, although
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  that's a lot of the cohort who come to the small groups and,
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  you know, get part of the program.
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  What's the mission of? Your organization, The mission
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  is simply to equip lay persons to gather together in a hopeful
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  and realistic way for people dealing with all kinds of
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  unchastity, homosexuality, just one expression.
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  And so I, I think it's a little bit more of a wholesome model
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  because we're all heading towards the same thing, which is
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  to become a more integrated and secure expression of our sexual
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  gift, whether we're single or married.
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  And so it's, it's for me been refining and securing to do that
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  with a breadth of of people bearing different symptoms of
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  the brokenness we all face. Beautiful.
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  Thank you. You're welcome.
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  I'm so glad you're back, Kim. Thanks for coming back.
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  Absolutely my favorite Texan. All right, tell me, for people
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  who haven't met you yet, give us The Who is Kim Zimber?
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  Yeah, so grew up Catholic and just always longing to be loved.
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  Honestly, I mean it, that might sound just too simple, but when
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  I just kind of look back over my life, I was longing to be loved
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  and and not just by a group of people or by a God that I grew
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  up hearing about, but I wanted love and I wanted it with one
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  person. For me personally, I never
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  really felt the the great draw to men.
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  I could recognize that they were attractive, but I I didn't feel
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  as safe and as comfortable as I did with women.
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  And that was really hard to reconcile feelings, desires that
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  we're not sexualized, but just the draw with my upbringing, you
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  know, growing up Catholic. And it wasn't until high school
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  that I kind of looked around and was like, OK, my friends are
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  pregnant, people are drunk, doing drugs, all this.
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  I'm like, and I had the mentality of God as a cop.
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  So for me, I was like, I just need to go under their speed
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  limit and they'll get in trouble and I won't.
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  And, and honestly, that's the way I kind of lived my life as I
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  just kind of looked around. And so I acted on the desires I
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  had, even though I knew why. Like deep down, I did know that
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  kissing another female was not what God had and that it would
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  probably go further. And I would have never thought
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  it went where it went. And I would take it where I took
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  it. I don't blame anyone.
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  I made choices and I yeah, lived hidden kind of dating men on the
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  forefront so that nobody would ask questions or I wouldn't have
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  to deal with reality with others while I was dating women behind
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  the scenes and ended up coming out quote UN quote living, you
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  know, openly dating women and thought that that would bring me
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  peace. There's a lot more in there, of
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  course, but just the the overarching I thought I would
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  have peace and living this open kind of gay lifestyle and I
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  didn't. I didn't.
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  Every night that I went to bed, my heart and my mind were at
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  war, my feelings and a deeper desire.
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  So I had desires for women. Those were being fulfilled.
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  But then there was like a deeper desire that was not being met.
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  And so I wrestled a lot, a lot. And by the grace of God, after,
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  you know, dating women for, I don't know, around a decade, I
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  just cried out to the Lord. And I was like, listen, I've
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  heard about you my whole life. I've heard a lot of people talk
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  about you. I need you to show up and I need
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  you to show up quick and show me that you're good at being God
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  and that you're better than everything.
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  I've tried, and I tried a lot. It wasn't just women, it was
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  money. It was everything.
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  And he showed up and in a very radical way.
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  And I will say that that encounter really did leave me
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  different. It did.
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  I was not perfect, still I'm not, but I experienced it.
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  I taste, I tasted and saw on a personal level something I had
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  never tasted and seen before and I wanted more.
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  And it was Jesus and it still is.
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  And it's been a journey. It's been 11 years.
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  October 17th was 11 years of of kind of giving God my sexuality
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  and and much more really giving in my life.
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  But it's been piece by piece. It has not been a perfect
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  journey. I wish that it has.
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  I wish that there weren't falls. I wish that there weren't bad
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  decisions on my end, but what God has continued to show me is
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  that he's faithful even when I'm not.
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  He's worthy even when I don't act worthy.
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  And so it's, it's really been a revelation of who he is in the
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  midst of seeing who I'm really acting like not acting, but how
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  I'm acting and how I'm what I'm choosing, that he's consistent.
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  And I honestly have seen over these eleven years that he's the
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  one that I've been longing for. Will I get married?
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  Only he knows. But he really is the one that
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  I'm longing for, the one that loves me no matter what.
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  When I fail, when I succeed, by the grace of God, succeed.
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  But you know, and so, yeah, it's just it's been, it's been a
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  journey. I think it will continue to be a
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  journey. I believe in deeper healing,
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  always filling of deeper depths, you know, so I don't think it's
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  like, oh, great, I'm not dating women anymore.
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  I'm, I'm all good that that's not the goal of God.
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  He wants our whole heart. He wants everything that we are.
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  He wants us to trust him with the very life he gave us.
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  And so I'm on this journey just like everybody else, but I feel
• 12:27
  very awoken, awake to the reality that I need someone
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  greater than myself. We were talking a few, I don't
• 12:35
  remember when it was, but recently and you were saying,
• 12:37
  you know, people keep asking you come, speak, come to this
• 12:40
  podcast and you, you know, had your businesses in the past.
• 12:43
  You haven't a ministry helping children in Africa.
• 12:46
  So like, and you say, well, I, I just, you know, I've told Lord,
• 12:48
  if you want me to keep speaking, I'll speak.
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  If you don't want me to speak, you know, I'll just whatever you
• 12:52
  want, Lord, here I am. But I think your story,
• 12:55
  especially as a woman, is so powerful because there are many
• 12:59
  women out there who relate and who need someone else to be
• 13:03
  honest and real about the struggles, the UPS and the
• 13:05
  downs. And I just appreciate you coming
• 13:07
  on. I know it takes a lot to like,
• 13:09
  fly around. You never have to be home.
• 13:10
  But I know that's true for all of you.
• 13:12
  Although I know you you usually are home base but coming from LA
• 13:15
  is like basically getting out of an airplane.
• 13:18
  Sometimes worse. It took him longer on the four O
• 13:20
  5. For Michael's the you worked the
• 13:22
  hardest here. But also, but thank you, Kim, if
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  could I also just add, I think what you expressed was true for
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  the majority of women. I would say I, I, I appreciate
• 13:39
  the specificity, but it's what women need at that most profound
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  level. It's not so much a guy, it's the
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  guy and that you, you express that very powerfully.
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  The perfect lover. Yeah.
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  And I, I was in Mass literally on Sunday.
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  I just got to share this. And then I oh, Michael's like
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  Michael was saving the best for us, but they're all the best.
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  But I was praying at Mass with my husband and I was looking at
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  Jesus on the crucifix, you know, during the Mass and I was
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  contemplating. I'm so grateful for my husband.
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  Pure gift. He's the best.
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  I'm he is everything. But I was realizing, you know,
• 14:16
  because I ask a lot of my husband, He's he's he works, he
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  gives everything, he pours himself out.
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  And I realized that Jesus ultimately is the infinite,
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  right? He's the everlasting.
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  My husband gets strength from Jesus.
• 14:29
  And when my husband loves me, it's a sign of God's love
• 14:31
  through my husband. And it's just a reminder that
• 14:35
  no, no other human person can fill us.
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  It's only that we are made for the infinite and only the
• 14:40
  infinite can fill us. And so I was honestly thinking
• 14:43
  like, I'm too hard on my husband.
• 14:45
  I asked like in the world of him constantly.
• 14:47
  I'm like, he's just a mere mortal like the one I really am
• 14:49
  searching for as a wife and I'm married is Jesus Christ.
• 14:54
  And as much consolation as there is in marriage, it's you know,
• 14:56
  I'm not going to pretend like marriage is perfect or that, you
• 14:59
  know, every, it's always easy or that the consolation is perfect.
• 15:02
  But and I and I'm so grateful to be married, but only God can
• 15:05
  fill the hole in the human heart.
• 15:06
  Only God can fill the hole in the human heart.
• 15:08
  So, Michael, give us the background on Michael Gasparo.
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  OK. I'm a professional therapist and
• 15:16
  I have a license as a licensed marriage.
• 15:18
  If I'm a therapist, I can't speak a licensed marriage and
• 15:21
  family therapist and a licensed professional clinical counselor
• 15:23
  in the state of California. That is part of what I do, but
• 15:27
  my mission. So since your audience may know
• 15:30
  a little bit my personal story already, I'll jump in with kind
• 15:32
  of a mission statement that comes to heart and mind right
• 15:34
  now, which is to inspire faith and human flourishing through
• 15:38
  counseling, education and beautiful music.
• 15:40
  And yeah. And so counseling is the part
• 15:43
  that I've done a lot of. And I've talked more about on
• 15:45
  this channel where I have a private practice as a therapist
• 15:47
  helping people with a variety of issues.
• 15:49
  But a lot, a lot of my clients come to therapy because they
• 15:52
  have an internal conflict between their desires and what
• 15:58
  they want to have for their life, a vision for their life.
• 16:01
  And that's not just homosexual issues.
• 16:03
  They're similar to what you said, Andy.
• 16:05
  Like Andrew, Andy, would she prefer?
• 16:07
  Can I call you Andy? What do you not here?
• 16:11
  Yeah, OK. So it's not.
• 16:13
  A small group, not a small. Group so Andrew what what Andrew
• 16:17
  said is is not only applicable to people who have LGBT
• 16:21
  experiences or same sex attraction and that's one thing
• 16:25
  that I think is going to be interesting about today is we're
• 16:26
  going to get into that as well. The broader issue of of sexual
• 16:30
  integration, healing wholeness, psychosexual maturity.
• 16:34
  What do these things mean not just for the person with with
• 16:37
  homosexual issues or gender identity issues.
• 16:40
  So I just got this passion on my radar because of a priest who
• 16:45
  had known in some of my talents and capacities.
• 16:47
  My first career was as a music instructor to kids and music
• 16:50
  ministry and that's my undergrad as in music.
• 16:52
  So I started writing kids music that is focused on theology of
• 16:56
  the body but at age appropriate levels for children.
• 16:58
  And I recently launched a YouTube channel called Mr.
• 17:00
  Michael Sings. I'm fully going for a Catholic
• 17:03
  version of Miss Rachel. Slightly older target audience.
• 17:06
  Love that. Thank you.
• 17:07
  I'm really excited about it. And the songs build on the to
• 17:10
  Mystic schema of the human person.
• 17:12
  So we can understand a Catholic anthropology of man.
• 17:16
  Because I think it's an antidote.
• 17:18
  One, I'm not the only antidote here with these songs.
• 17:20
  But it's one thing we can do is provide good education early to
• 17:24
  children with beautiful music that helps them remember and
• 17:27
  know and learn about their whole being, body and soul.
• 17:30
  And as a therapist, I'm attentive to that idea that they
• 17:33
  have human development as a part of that.
• 17:34
  And sometimes in the Catholic milieu, we can miss a little bit
• 17:37
  the reality that growth happens gradually over time.
• 17:41
  We should not expect children to be at a mature spirituality when
• 17:45
  they're six years old and they need to learn about their bodies
• 17:48
  and their emotions and they need to learn that growth happens
• 17:51
  gently and through trial and error and trial and success.
• 17:54
  So these songs are passion project of mine, and that's what
• 17:57
  I've been up to lately. So check out Mr. Michael Sings.
• 18:00
  But I will say to just put a sort of button on the end of
• 18:05
  that. I come here to both the
• 18:07
  professional concern for people with homosexual issues, but a
• 18:10
  personal experience of that as well.
• 18:14
  And it emerged, probably by the time I was in middle school that
• 18:17
  I knew there was this conflict and I was in a Catholic home, in
• 18:20
  a Christian home. And because of that, I knew
• 18:23
  there was this sort of confusion about how I would, what's,
• 18:26
  what's going to happen? Like, what am I going to do,
• 18:27
  Lord, how am I going to move forward here?
• 18:29
  And I will say it is not me that chose Jesus, but Jesus that
• 18:33
  chose me. And I say that because the time
• 18:36
  in my life when I was most vulnerable and, and struggling
• 18:39
  the most with sexual compulsions, with pornography
• 18:42
  and other things like that was the time in which Jesus spoke
• 18:45
  into my heart the most and kind of revealed that it, he is real.
• 18:50
  And that was at a time of profound brokenness and struggle
• 18:54
  for me. So I have been on a 30 year
• 18:57
  journey. I'm 38 now, but many years of
• 19:00
  ups and downs of this. And I have hope in my heart.
• 19:03
  And that's what I want to be here today for, is to share
• 19:04
  hope. Beautiful.
• 19:06
  Thank you. I'm so excited to say that
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  That's cozyearth.com. I'm so excited for what we're
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  going to get into here because we've addressed sexuality issues
• 20:53
  on the show pretty regularly. And not just sexuality issues
• 20:57
  around sort of the maybe the label LGBT, but sexuality issues
• 21:01
  having to do with marriage, having to do with chastity,
• 21:04
  having to do with, you know, family and formation and really
• 21:08
  the whole scope of things. So today though, I really want
• 21:11
  to take time to answer misunderstandings that I see in
• 21:15
  our comment section sometimes on the channel as well as just out
• 21:18
  in the world, in the culture, the broader culture, because I
• 21:20
  can't think of three better people to speak to it.
• 21:23
  And I think the the misunderstanding I wanted to
• 21:26
  start with. And then we'll also, if you have
• 21:27
  misunderstandings, you feel like, hey, I think this would be
• 21:29
  good to talk about. We'll bring it up please.
• 21:31
  Is this idea? I've heard this a lot.
• 21:33
  I've heard it actually from people who say that themselves.
• 21:35
  I'm a Christian or I'm Catholic, or they say the idea of, you
• 21:39
  know, Beckett Cook's another guest you've had on the show
• 21:41
  before. He's amazing.
• 21:42
  He talks about discovering, you know, chastity ultimately
• 21:46
  leaving the gay lifestyle, becoming born again, etcetera,
• 21:49
  figuring out the pain in his childhood.
• 21:51
  And the criticism is of Doctor Nicolosi who we all know here.
• 21:56
  Even your practice to some degree, Michael.
• 21:59
  And again, I I'm so grateful for your courage because there is a
• 22:03
  huge backlash against the very important work that you are
• 22:06
  doing that you are all doing. Is this that reintegrative the
• 22:10
  IT calling a therapy or a ministry that is going to
• 22:16
  ultimately be for include at least people with same sex
• 22:20
  attraction talking about childhood wounds, you know,
• 22:25
  scars or issues, wounds or addictions, anything and saying
• 22:29
  that there can be reintegration of that person or conversion
• 22:32
  therapy is another title used for this approach to therapy.
• 22:37
  Potentially is wrong because it is basically telling someone who
• 22:41
  has same sex attraction or who identifies as LGB, really we're
• 22:47
  going to set the T aside that if they just do some childhood deep
• 22:52
  work, some inner work, then they can be free of these attractions
• 22:56
  and that they need to battle these attractions by going to
• 22:58
  therapy and then they'll be free.
• 23:00
  And there's some people who have reached out to the show and said
• 23:03
  I didn't have any issues in my childhood.
• 23:05
  You know, why are you, why are you talking about these issues
• 23:08
  as if everybody has them? Now I want to say one more thing
• 23:11
  before I open it up to you. The guests we've had on the
• 23:13
  show, including Doctor Nicolosi, have not said that this is
• 23:18
  everybody's story always, but they have said it's many
• 23:20
  people's and they're these are the people that as an example,
• 23:22
  Doctor Nicolosi is serving. So I want to share him because
• 23:25
  he's amazing. And you know, I don't want to
• 23:28
  misrepresent what he's even said on the show.
• 23:30
  So what is everyone's take on this idea on this
• 23:33
  misunderstanding or or concern that the ministries that you may
• 23:37
  be involved with or what the show is doing are UN you know,
• 23:41
  are are not helping people but hurting people because they're
• 23:43
  oversimplifying the stories of people who struggle with same
• 23:46
  sex attraction. Yeah, I think we would do a
• 23:48
  disservice if we just say, hey, this is cookie cutter and you
• 23:52
  fit in this as a human person, this is your problem and you
• 23:55
  just need to go figure out what the childhood issue is.
• 23:57
  I I think that would be wrong and I think you would agree to
• 23:59
  that. And both of these lovely men
• 24:01
  would as well. So I've never felt that way in,
• 24:06
  you know, in this place that I've been placed in, in, in
• 24:10
  having so many people reach out that are in this lifestyle that
• 24:14
  are dating the same sex, you know, identifying as gay.
• 24:17
  They're realizing on their own, not because of what I've said,
• 24:20
  but me sharing my own story. I mean, there's times in the
• 24:23
  beginning when I came out of the lifestyle, I was like, I have a
• 24:25
  great family. This is not childhood stuff.
• 24:28
  This is not sexual abuse. I didn't have sexual abuse in my
• 24:32
  life. And so even for me, I remember
• 24:34
  feeling that and thinking, that's what everybody's saying.
• 24:36
  You know, back then it was like, oh, you must have been sexually
• 24:38
  abused. And I knew that wasn't the case
• 24:40
  for me. So that was frustrating.
• 24:42
  So I can, I can kind of relate to that even in my own
• 24:45
  experience being like, OK, that's not what it is for me.
• 24:48
  And then everybody's like, well, it's family issues.
• 24:50
  And I'm like, I have a great mom and dad.
• 24:52
  They, you know, been together. So it was, it was irritating to
• 24:55
  me. So I, I just feel that in my own
• 24:57
  heart as well, that wrestle that that I experienced.
• 25:00
  But as I continued to open my heart to the Lord and let him go
• 25:04
  wherever he wanted, he continued to highlight in Scripture where
• 25:07
  it said that Jesus came to bind up the broken hearted.
• 25:10
  And I'm like, OK, God, I, I don't have a lot of maybe
• 25:14
  struggles or issues that a lot of other people have had, but
• 25:18
  I've had to have some because you didn't just raise me right.
• 25:21
  Like I had a mother and a father who were not perfect.
• 25:24
  So I give you access to that and seen that personally and what
• 25:28
  has unfolded, it's been pretty incredible the the places that
• 25:33
  God's gone and he's brought healing and he showed a lot of
• 25:36
  things. But to say that that's going to
• 25:38
  be the same for everyone, I think would be wrong for us to
• 25:40
  say. But I, I would say that not one
• 25:44
  person walking this earth was raised by a perfect mother and a
• 25:47
  perfect father. And so the imperfections of our
• 25:50
  families are going to have some sort of effect on us some sort.
• 25:55
  And would we be open to letting God examine that with us?
• 25:59
  I think that's more the stance I would say.
• 26:02
  And if we don't, I think we're just doing ourselves a
• 26:05
  disservice. But to just cookie cutter say,
• 26:07
  well, it must be childhood mommy issues, daddy issues, OK, it
• 26:11
  could or it couldn't be, but are you willing to look at it,
• 26:13
  right. And I think that's just an open
• 26:15
  heart, right? So that that's just a little bit
• 26:17
  of feedback I would say to that. It's a, a war of troublesome
• 26:23
  words. So this notion of I'm being
• 26:27
  forced or this is being imposed conversion therapy for underage
• 26:35
  malleable people. You know, that kind of language
• 26:40
  to me is is exaggerated and mostly untrue.
• 26:46
  Our desires have meaning and as to what our desires mean is
• 26:53
  something that we collaborate with God and with wise people
• 26:59
  on. So if I wake up, maybe even
• 27:04
  ashamed because of intensive dreams towards a male friend and
• 27:10
  I'm like where is this coming from?
• 27:12
  What is going on with me? I want to know I I will repent,
• 27:20
  I will confess, I'll do the normal Christian things, but in
• 27:24
  the end, I want to know what the meaning of my desires are.
• 27:29
  And to assume that that someone outside of me, Big Brother, is
• 27:35
  going to impose an abusive meaning is something that
• 27:39
  frankly I find unfounded and more just kind of room noise in
• 27:46
  the culture wars. How much more helpful to honor
• 27:51
  your humanity, your humanity, as you come as a serious Christian
• 27:56
  and say, Lord Jesus, help me to sort this out because I want to
• 28:02
  be a more, I don't mean a perfect gift.
• 28:05
  We're all disordered. We're all subject to original
• 28:09
  sin. But I want to be a less
• 28:12
  frustrated gift to my male friend.
• 28:16
  I don't want to be kind of doing, you know, warfare when
• 28:19
  I'm with him and not wanting to do dumb things to him.
• 28:22
  And as a married guy, I want to be free for my wife.
• 28:26
  I've made a vow to her. I love her.
• 28:30
  She has every right to have the first fruit of my affection and
• 28:34
  my thoughts. And so if other things are
• 28:37
  interfering with that, I'm going to get help and I'm going to get
• 28:42
  on track because someone needs my integrity.
• 28:47
  I need it, my wife needs it, my friends need it.
• 28:51
  And so I think we need to change the paradigm a little bit
• 28:55
  because I think it it results in unnecessary polarization.
• 29:03
  God searches out the deep things of our hearts.
• 29:07
  We as human beings see impartial, I mean see only in
• 29:10
  part. But that we can draw upon wise
• 29:14
  counselors and ministers and friends who can actually know us
• 29:21
  and pray for us insightfully is only helpful.
• 29:25
  And I hope we all are getting a little better at that.
• 29:31
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• 29:34
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• 30:24
  In our current environment for licensed counselors, licensed
• 30:27
  psychologists, etcetera, there is a, a general consensus.
• 30:32
  It's a consensus of the majority.
• 30:34
  Doesn't mean it's true that homosexuality and, and
• 30:37
  everything in that realm is normal and healthy.
• 30:41
  Of course you're not going to be curious about why you're feeling
• 30:43
  that way then we're not really curious about the normal
• 30:46
  healthy. We don't wonder why we want to
• 30:49
  eat food and why, you know, it's just part of being normal and
• 30:52
  healthy. And so I think if you refuse to
• 30:55
  ask the questions why, it's because you bought into a
• 30:58
  narrative that it's normal and healthy.
• 31:00
  Changed my mind. Lay it down.
• 31:04
  No, I think I think that is a very good way to conclude, you
• 31:08
  know what you've just shared Kim and you shared Andrew, which is
• 31:11
  I think when I've seen that blowback about, you know,
• 31:15
  exploring reintegrative therapy or childhood wounds that by the
• 31:19
  way, we all have, like I wrote a book fighting for life, everyone
• 31:22
  wants to read it. And like literally, there's
• 31:24
  several chapters about my childhood wounds.
• 31:26
  They're like, you're fine, Lila, look at you're doing great.
• 31:28
  I'm like, I had my issues. I still have my issues, but and
• 31:31
  I think everybody's childhood is worth exploring for the sake of
• 31:35
  self knowledge and self gift, so you can give yourself better to
• 31:39
  other people, so you can love other people better as perfectly
• 31:42
  as we all are going to. But it's not even just about the
• 31:44
  childhood, it's about our life today and how we impact other
• 31:48
  people. And not everything can be
• 31:50
  explained perfectly in this life.
• 31:52
  And I think that's the other thing, like we can't perfectly,
• 31:54
  it's not a perfect science of like, well, these things, these
• 31:56
  five things happened as a kid and that means this is going to
• 31:58
  happen to me as an adult. Of course not.
• 32:01
  But I think this plays into the next question, which is nature
• 32:03
  versus versus nurture. You know, are people Born This
• 32:07
  Way? Whether it's gay, bisexual,
• 32:11
  straight, trans. I know there's a ton more
• 32:14
  identities that people identify as today.
• 32:17
  The umbrella continues to grow and there is this idea today of
• 32:22
  a fixed identity or you can evolve your identity, but it's
• 32:26
  still something that you just that it was innate, that it's
• 32:30
  innate, it's coming from somewhere in inside of you.
• 32:33
  And therefore, to say that it can be some way changed,
• 32:35
  altered, adjusted, or that it's in any way wrong to behave
• 32:39
  certain ways, that would be ultimately bigoted or homophobic
• 32:43
  or hateful. Yeah, I mean, there's many ways
• 32:47
  of answering that. I I think the maybe the clearest
• 32:51
  way as Christians is to understand what were for as male
• 32:56
  and female and in light of all the fizzers and fractures and
• 33:02
  frustrations that we face. I'm I as as an embodied person,
• 33:10
  as a man of the direction of my sexuality is always going to be
• 33:16
  for the purpose, not of of siring children necessarily
• 33:22
  because not everyone gets married, but will always be in
• 33:26
  the direction of honoring and dignifying woman and woman in
• 33:31
  turn is created to be a gift and a bless or if you will, in turn
• 33:41
  of man. And so I think anthropology is
• 33:45
  crucial. Psychology is complicated and
• 33:48
  there's many different takes on that, how we become a certain
• 33:52
  way and why, but the direction of our sexuality is intact.
• 33:58
  So from the beginning of my life, I am always becoming who I
• 34:03
  am. I haven't realized it.
• 34:05
  I'm aspiring towards it, but the trajectory doesn't change.
• 34:11
  The trajectory is never homosexual or transgender or
• 34:16
  bisexual. My feelings and my my unique
• 34:21
  psychological makeup are not the determining factors of the end
• 34:26
  game. I think that has to do with my
• 34:31
  moving in fear and trembling in the direction of becoming a more
• 34:38
  honorable gift for the women in my life and vice versa.
• 34:42
  So I, I simply believe that in terms of the Imago day and the,
• 34:46
  the duality of humanity as kind of the underlying principle,
• 34:52
  there's so much else that we experience and that frustrate
• 34:56
  that, that we, we, we recognize and we, we have many different
• 35:01
  conflicts of desire and affection and, and fears and so
• 35:07
  on. But I, I, I simply think that's
• 35:09
  kind of bottom line. And when we start saying my
• 35:14
  fundamental being is gay, My fundamental being is being
• 35:19
  against my own sex. I, I, I need to be another sex,
• 35:25
  you know, I, I, I simply think we're, we're, we're taking a
• 35:30
  profound conflict in our being and making it foundational to
• 35:35
  our humanity. And I think those are two
• 35:38
  different things. We can still have our conflicts
• 35:41
  and be honest and need a lot of help for it.
• 35:45
  But the foundation doesn't change.
• 35:49
  And I think I think that's helpful.
• 35:52
  Good news, however unsexy and undramatic it is.
• 35:57
  And I think also not to be simplistic about it now, you
• 36:00
  know, God didn't make Adam and Steve, He made Adam and Eve.
• 36:05
  You know, you know, some like terrible way of, of shaming
• 36:11
  people. I'm just saying, and I think
• 36:13
  there's terrible ways of men and women treating each other.
• 36:16
  So just the fact that one has a desire for the other doesn't
• 36:22
  make one a good lover, doesn't make one a good man or a good
• 36:25
  woman. It can make you a monster.
• 36:28
  So I I think it's about this whole thing of honor.
• 36:32
  John Paul the second said the future and dignity of humanity
• 36:36
  depends on who man will be for woman and on who woman will be
• 36:41
  for man. All of us are impacted
• 36:45
  psychologically, morally, by by the how men and women in our
• 36:52
  world treated each other and we're all impacted by that.
• 36:59
  And so to the degree that Jesus can help us in our
• 37:03
  self-awareness, in our healing and our repentance, and in all
• 37:08
  of the above to be a clearer, truer offering for the other in
• 37:14
  our life, single or married, I think I think we we will be
• 37:19
  moving in the right direction. What are your, what's your take
• 37:23
  on that? Michael and Kim, the whole thing
• 37:26
  of you're Born This Way and to to tell someone otherwise is to
• 37:30
  torment them, basically. I go to the place of Are we
• 37:34
  willing to look at sexuality? Yes.
• 37:37
  OK, let's look at sexuality and let's look broader as well.
• 37:41
  As a human being, whether Christian or not Christian, do
• 37:44
  we have desires that are out of order?
• 37:48
  Like do we believe there's an order?
• 37:49
  See, because I, I don't think you can know something's out of
• 37:52
  order unless you know there's an order.
• 37:54
  So I think it's kind of like even going back further, what is
• 37:57
  order not just a sexuality? Because everybody gets freaked
• 38:00
  out just in life, right? Like there's, there's order to a
• 38:03
  world. If there's not, it's called
• 38:05
  chaos. And we've seen that a lot.
• 38:07
  And so I think sometimes we, we parse out and we only look at
• 38:10
  sexuality, but we as human beings have a lot of disordered
• 38:14
  desires and, and we're sometimes born that way because we're born
• 38:17
  into a disordered and a chaotic world, right?
• 38:21
  And, and families right as well. And so I would always say this,
• 38:25
  I have two brothers. I won't say which one was born a
• 38:27
  little more angry. He was just a little more pissed
• 38:30
  in life, like he just was growing up.
• 38:32
  I saw it. Does that now give him the right
• 38:35
  to just be angry? Well, I would say no.
• 38:39
  That's an area that that he can grow in that he can say, wow,
• 38:43
  something's kind of off in me and, and he can open his heart
• 38:46
  to the Lord and to others and see where that goes.
• 38:49
  But I, I don't think just because since I can remember,
• 38:52
  I've been this way, whether it be around sexuality, attitude or
• 38:55
  these other things, we just say, OK, then, then just be that way.
• 38:58
  That would be, that would be minimizing the beauty of
• 39:01
  transformation and growth for any of us on any level.
• 39:05
  So I would now tie that to sexuality.
• 39:08
  Well, I since I was young, this is all I remember.
• 39:10
  OK. And and I don't want to minimize
• 39:12
  that, but but do you think that God can do something if if you
• 39:17
  believe in God? That's that's the other thing
• 39:19
  too. If we're talking as Christians,
• 39:21
  it's different because we believe we have a God who has
• 39:23
  order. And so I would say with whatever
• 39:26
  it be, even if you feel like that's how you were born, you
• 39:30
  can, since you can remember, I mean, Jesus said to himself, be
• 39:33
  born again, come and be born again.
• 39:36
  And even the Pharisee was like, oh, you want me to go back into
• 39:38
  the womb and be, And she's like, no, but you can come to me and
• 39:41
  be born again. And so we're invited into this,
• 39:44
  whether it be whatever disordered desires we might
• 39:48
  have, I don't think it's right for your own self to love
• 39:51
  yourself. Well, to say, well, I'm sorry, I
• 39:54
  just love eating food and I don't want to stop.
• 39:57
  Well, there's a disordered desire there, and you'd be not
• 40:00
  honoring yourself. To not want to have that brought
• 40:04
  into order by the God who loves you and created order for your
• 40:07
  good and the good of those around you.
• 40:09
  So I think it applies to more than just sexuality.
• 40:11
  So I'd say no matter if we've struggled with something since
• 40:14
  we were young, God's greater and He's the God of order that loves
• 40:17
  you and wants to love you into right order, whatever that be.
• 40:21
  Yeah, and especially with the psychological piece, because
• 40:24
  they're asking about like ideology development.
• 40:27
  I think it's so interesting because science is operationally
• 40:30
  based on the idea that the universe has intelligible
• 40:33
  patterns that could be observed and tested.
• 40:35
  And psychology is a realm of the sciences.
• 40:38
  And so we have a diagnostics, and I can't speak today, we have
• 40:41
  a diagnostics and statistics manual that helps us categorize
• 40:45
  human phenomena of dysfunction. Now, I'm not saying we need to
• 40:48
  reinstate. That's another debate whether or
• 40:51
  not homosexuality should be considered mental disorder or
• 40:53
  not. But I do think intelligible
• 40:56
  patterns exist and we we should be allowed to be curious about
• 41:00
  them. And I know to your point, Andy,
• 41:03
  anthropology sets the framework for flourishing, but psychology
• 41:08
  gives us permission to explore the why.
• 41:10
  And in any other realm of human functioning, we're allowed to
• 41:13
  even ask the question. But for this realm of human
• 41:17
  functioning, Although ironically a lot of the people in the
• 41:20
  mainstream are obsessed with Freud, or at least the the
• 41:23
  framework of the culture has been largely influenced by him
• 41:26
  and his stages of development were called the psychosexual
• 41:30
  stages of development. And they implicated and directly
• 41:33
  stated that homosexuality was considered an Arrested
• 41:36
  Development, sort of an immature expression of sexuality.
• 41:41
  So all that to say, again, there are multiple perspectives and
• 41:43
  various ways of looking at this. However, we should be allowed to
• 41:46
  say, and I wonder why. And all of us have a personal
• 41:50
  story here, too. That's so important.
• 41:52
  And that's OK to be allowed as an individual.
• 41:54
  Let's not just talk in broad terms here about people in
• 41:58
  general. I, Michael Gasparo, am allowed
• 42:01
  to ask why and be curious. And I would say what's so
• 42:05
  helpful about a sound psychological perspective, which
• 42:10
  I believe you have, Michael, is it it?
• 42:15
  It opens us to the mercies of God at a whole new level.
• 42:21
  So growing up with intensive same sex feelings, all the porn
• 42:26
  and masturbation, and I mean all of that, all the stuff that goes
• 42:30
  along with a shameful desire and then that breaking out into a
• 42:37
  series of relationships with people coming to the end of
• 42:42
  myself, like I need a savior, finding the savior, I believe.
• 42:48
  But then all of the residual stuff like Jesus, why is this so
• 42:53
  powerful? Where does this come from?
• 42:57
  And in being able to look at some of the factors in my own
• 43:00
  life that contributed to masculine disintegration and
• 43:04
  sort of idolizing the masculine and really what a bondage that
• 43:09
  is. You know, in some ways the
• 43:12
  differences between male and female homosexuality reveal
• 43:15
  something essential about male and female sexuality, you know,
• 43:20
  in its, in its, you know, rather extreme forms.
• 43:24
  But when I, you know, became more aware therapeutically of
• 43:29
  what was going on and really the deep unconscious things, the
• 43:34
  wounds that I just kind of categorized and said, oh, those
• 43:37
  aren't really wounds. And even if they that happened,
• 43:41
  I don't really feel much about it.
• 43:43
  I mean, the I, I was, I was sexualizing A profound emotional
• 43:50
  self protection from key male figures in my life.
• 43:56
  And I did not make the connection at all that I was
• 44:00
  actually now sexualizing much needed emotional needs from men.
• 44:08
  Just just normal affirmation, confirmation.
• 44:12
  One of the guys that was all walled off for me.
• 44:16
  And the main line was eroticizing men.
• 44:21
  And when I began to realize that and, and that that obviously
• 44:25
  provided a, a path for greater healing.
• 44:29
  But mostly I, I dare say it was the mercy of God.
• 44:34
  It was saying, Jesus, I am so in need of your mercy that it's not
• 44:39
  just homosexual sin I need your mercy for, it's for the wounding
• 44:46
  in my heart that I don't even have words for.
• 44:51
  And I think in terms of Divine Mercy, it was that river of life
• 44:57
  that opened me to being loved in the way that you described that
• 45:03
  was most primitive and and most restorative.
• 45:08
  So I believe that the psychological sciences are
• 45:12
  crucial to accessing the mercy of God where where we need it.
• 45:19
  And perhaps they're not even in need, not even aware of it.
• 45:23
  There's so many follow-ups to that.
• 45:25
  I have like 10 follow-ups. I'm like which one should we go
• 45:27
  for? Go to 1st.
• 45:29
  One thing that I I want to make sure we put on the table though
• 45:31
  is this LGBTQ plus whatever label because that is a a point
• 45:36
  of controversy. My jaw just clenched when you
• 45:38
  said that. Sing Michael.
• 45:41
  Sing, sing the. Does the hearing hearing the
• 45:44
  label? Hearing the label makes the jaw
• 45:45
  clench. Yeah, I just, I'm, I, I just
• 45:48
  feel a little angry. I'm not at.
• 45:50
  Well, I want to, I want you to respond to this because Father
• 45:52
  James Martin, you know, God bless him, we're going to invite
• 45:54
  him on the show. We might have already invited
• 45:55
  him on the show is a priest in the Catholic Church, and there's
• 46:00
  some folks like him in the evangelical space and the
• 46:03
  different, you know, denominations.
• 46:04
  But we're going to talk about Father Martin because we're all
• 46:07
  Catholics here. All the many of us have
• 46:09
  evangelical backgrounds. Anyways.
• 46:12
  He talks about how we need to be welcoming to LGBTQ plus
• 46:15
  individuals. So he favors using that
• 46:18
  language, creating a categorization, putting people
• 46:20
  in those categories, identifying people as lesbian, gay,
• 46:24
  bisexual, trans, you know, queer, if they choose that
• 46:27
  identity and he wants to affirm them as they are.
• 46:30
  He's not saying it's OK to sin because I do think he's pretty
• 46:33
  clear about, yes, acting on same sex desires and, you know,
• 46:36
  acting out sexually, whether it's before marriage and you're,
• 46:39
  you know, heterosexual or you're just, you know, acting on same
• 46:42
  sex desires and you're, you know, gay or queer or bi is
• 46:47
  wrong. But he still welcomes the label.
• 46:50
  What do you all think about that?
• 46:53
  And if I could just qualify that I, I do believe he would
• 46:56
  advocate for people in gay relationships that are together.
• 47:03
  So he is not an abstaining an an advocate of abstinence.
• 47:10
  So he would. Well, I've, I've seen him make
• 47:12
  sure to be clear that you're not like, sin is sin.
• 47:15
  I don't think he's ever said that.
• 47:17
  And sexual activity outside of marriage between one man and one
• 47:20
  woman isn't sin. Because that would.
• 47:22
  I mean, I don't think he's gone that far.
• 47:23
  Or has he? Maybe I missed that he has.
• 47:25
  Really. He.
• 47:26
  Has in quiet. Where's the Bishop?
• 47:28
  Yeah, no, he. Is in very quiet ways,
• 47:31
  advocating for gay relationships, yeah.
• 47:34
  Well, if he's willing to come on the show, we'd love to hear his
• 47:35
  perspective. Absolutely.
• 47:37
  Well, I think to your point, Lila, I'm not Jim Father James
• 47:40
  Martin's defender, but I think publicly when he states things,
• 47:43
  that's what he states. I think maybe we're speaking to
• 47:45
  his more. You're concerned about the
• 47:46
  message of what he's sharing, but I'll let you speak to that
• 47:49
  in general. I will say in with the LGBT
• 47:52
  question, aside from what Father Martin advocates for, I'm not
• 47:57
  angry at LGBT people. I need to qualify that I said I
• 48:00
  was angry. It's because I don't like those
• 48:03
  labels. They frustrate me and I more
• 48:06
  than the labels themselves. I don't like the idea that
• 48:09
  they're innocuous that that their idea that they're
• 48:11
  harmless. Or even helpful.
• 48:13
  I think Father James and some people who are upset by some of
• 48:16
  the content, even on this shows like the LGBT label, you should
• 48:19
  honor it. You should bless it.
• 48:21
  You should welcome it. Even the act of not liking the
• 48:23
  label is some form of. Bigotry.
• 48:25
  Yeah. So, but I'd love to hear why,
• 48:27
  why Michael, as a therapist, as someone who yourself have
• 48:31
  experienced, you know, same sex attractions and you've counseled
• 48:34
  hundreds of people and you've been outspoken.
• 48:36
  Why do you think there's a problem with putting this label
• 48:40
  on people that may have these different, varied experiences?
• 48:42
  Yeah. And I'm not saying I wouldn't
• 48:44
  tell somebody not to call themselves that and in the sense
• 48:46
  of robbing them of their agency to do so if they choose.
• 48:50
  But we all have are free to share our opinions.
• 48:52
  And I think it's harmful because it keeps people stuck in a false
• 48:55
  narrative. And I mean, personally speaking,
• 48:58
  it just twists me up a little inside if I was to say those
• 49:02
  those words like it doesn't feel true or authentic to me to say
• 49:05
  I'm gay. It feels icky.
• 49:09
  And believe me, I'm not saying that I have shame at all.
• 49:12
  I'm on a podcast talking about my history of homosexual issues.
• 49:16
  I'm not ashamed. I am not ashamed.
• 49:18
  Where's the camera? I'm not ashamed.
• 49:20
  Jesus is my Savior. I love being here.
• 49:23
  I'm grateful for the things I've gone through and dealt with.
• 49:25
  But you don't want to be called. You're like don't call me gay.
• 49:27
  Like I have same sex attraction, don't call me gay.
• 49:29
  Yeah, and I'm also advocating that it keeps people stuck in a
• 49:34
  mindset that prevents them from looking at things that might
• 49:37
  help them heal and grow. And why do you say that?
• 49:40
  Why do you think that? Is that by identifying as LGBTQ
• 49:45
  or by having saying I am gay? You may be closing off an
• 49:49
  opportunity for healing or growth.
• 49:51
  Well I think it's personally applicable to my own life a but
• 49:55
  BI have friends and we all do have narratives around this.
• 49:58
  I mean, I, I don't want to share other people's stories in too
• 50:00
  much detail, but I know people who when they had that label
• 50:04
  identity very close to their heart, they would even dismiss
• 50:07
  and ignore sexual feelings that they have had towards the
• 50:10
  opposite sex as sort of aberrations or things that
• 50:14
  weren't really part of their authentic self until they
• 50:17
  surrender that label and then they started seeing.
• 50:19
  But then they say they're bi. No, they they realize.
• 50:21
  I've seen that transition. Yes, that could happen.
• 50:24
  But they realized that the labels themselves weren't very
• 50:27
  helpful. Excuse me, that the labels
• 50:29
  themselves weren't very helpful for what?
• 50:31
  And I would love to hear what you all have to say about that.
• 50:33
  The church says come as you are, but we never, no matter what
• 50:37
  we're struggling with, we come as we are, as we think we are or
• 50:40
  as we say we are. But the whole thing with Christ
• 50:43
  is that we are, we become different, right, That we're
• 50:46
  transformed. And so whatever that be, not
• 50:48
  just within sexuality. So I, I do have a problem with
• 50:51
  labels of all kinds. People who struggle with
• 50:54
  alcoholism. I don't call them an alcoholic.
• 50:57
  I I just don't, I don't believe when God looks down on his
• 51:00
  creation, he's like there's an alcoholic, there's a homosexual,
• 51:03
  there's a that that's not the lens of Christ so that Jesus
• 51:06
  Christ died to reconcile us back to the Father as beloved sons
• 51:10
  and daughters. And so when we let our identity
• 51:13
  fall into something else and and as leaders in the church,
• 51:16
  especially as priests are now labeling something with with
• 51:20
  which God did not label, I'm genuinely concerned.
• 51:23
  Did God is creator? I'm not I'm creation.
• 51:27
  Did God label me or my brother or sister with that?
• 51:31
  And if I'm doing that over someone else, if they want to do
• 51:34
  that, I'm going to honor that. But I'm not going to now say,
• 51:38
  hey, this is we need to label everybody as this because I
• 51:41
  don't believe that's what God is saying.
• 51:43
  I believe there's more beyond our sexuality is important,
• 51:47
  otherwise God wouldn't have created it.
• 51:48
  It's important. It is not everything.
• 51:51
  We have listened to the lie of Satan that our sexuality defines
• 51:55
  everything that we are. Well, I think it's even our
• 51:57
  sexual feelings of sexual desires, attractions that might
• 52:01
  be sexualized because even in the world of desire attraction,
• 52:06
  you know, there's so much Gray and nuance.
• 52:09
  There's intricacy. In there because you can be
• 52:10
  attracted to someone and then it becomes sexualized and you think
• 52:14
  that's a sexual attraction, but then you unravel and you're
• 52:15
  like, no, I'm not sexually attracted.
• 52:17
  It can be sexualized. I'm deeply drawn to this element
• 52:20
  of their soul even or some other, you know, interaction
• 52:23
  that we have. So there's there's a tremendous
• 52:25
  world of nuance around things that I think are hyper
• 52:27
  simplified to do with the LGBT. Label.
• 52:30
  It's one thing to be aware of desires and to say, yeah, I'm
• 52:34
  having a lot of desires right now that I'm sorting out.
• 52:38
  But my desires do not define me. I, I do believe and I, I'm not
• 52:44
  challenging you on this. I do believe our sexuality is
• 52:47
  foundational and always is and is always important.
• 52:52
  I'm a man created to become a man.
• 52:55
  You're a woman created to become more of a woman, if you will.
• 52:58
  So I think those are foundations that just are.
• 53:02
  But as far as our desires, I I don't define myself by them.
• 53:07
  Labels have never been my friend and the growing up bullied and
• 53:11
  so on and so forth. It's just been bad news, you
• 53:13
  know, trauma. But now as a Christian, I don't
• 53:17
  like the, the label of straight, I don't like the label of alpha
• 53:21
  male. I don't like them all the ways
• 53:24
  that we even, you know, we even sort of tag people other than
• 53:29
  you're a guy, you're a woman, you're a son of God, you're a
• 53:34
  daughter of God. I, I think it's complicating and
• 53:38
  unnecessary, albeit understandable for people in our
• 53:43
  culture. It's only been in the last 20
• 53:46
  years that our educational system has given all the space
• 53:51
  needed in repair for bullying, for guys that aren't that macho,
• 53:57
  for girls that are a little more masculine to say you're being
• 54:01
  picked on. Now you need sacred space in the
• 54:05
  public square to find solidarity with other girls who are being
• 54:13
  bullied for not being traditional, guys for not being
• 54:16
  traditional. So it all becomes this kind of
• 54:20
  social sanctuary. And so I understand there are
• 54:24
  kids that have been raised in that that find a kind of safety
• 54:29
  to say now I'm being upfront about, you know, what I've been
• 54:33
  feeling and so on and so forth. And our culture has has simply
• 54:39
  confirmed blessed, you know, high five, that my kids are all
• 54:43
  high school teachers. My children are grown up now.
• 54:46
  They're high school teachers, public schools, they see this
• 54:49
  constantly and they're like, we have come so far from even being
• 54:56
  able to bless and confirm a person in the light of this sort
• 55:01
  of diversity treatment in the school.
• 55:03
  So I think it's a phenomenon that is now coming into the
• 55:08
  Church, and I think Father Martin is doing us all a great
• 55:12
  disservice by saying now Catholics have to adopt
• 55:17
  diversity understanding in regards to sexual identity.
• 55:21
  I think that is anthropologically heretical,
• 55:26
  honestly, and not helpful for getting to what is ailing,
• 55:31
  earnest Catholics that are simply worldly in their
• 55:35
  thinking. And I think your response, which
• 55:38
  wasn't a personal response, you were actually responding to in a
• 55:43
  sense on behalf of the people you represent, saying, I don't
• 55:49
  want you to take on a kind of defense that says this is who I
• 55:55
  am, Ask no more questions, rather, well, can't we go like
• 55:59
  this? To me, LGBT is saying this, this
• 56:04
  is who I am. This is how I present socially
• 56:07
  for all of us still dealing with some residual same sex
• 56:11
  attraction. I I'm not I I would say guilty.
• 56:14
  I'm not guilty. I just say here I am Lord.
• 56:17
  Well, I think that's a core point.
• 56:18
  The attraction is not the sin. No, no, no.
• 56:20
  This is another huge misunderstanding.
• 56:22
  Huge misunderstanding. And with that, all of us as
• 56:26
  serious Christians, we're going like this.
• 56:28
  We're saying, come on, Lord, I'm still getting saved.
• 56:31
  Well, I want to be happy. Yeah.
• 56:33
  I think what's interesting is I thought because I had same sex
• 56:35
  attraction and I wanted to follow Christ, that meant I
• 56:38
  wasn't allowed to even want to be happy because what would make
• 56:41
  me happy was to be with a guy in a sexual way that I'm saying.
• 56:45
  That was the perception I had. And it was actually a huge shift
• 56:48
  in my own journey as a Christian to realize I can't but want to
• 56:52
  be happy. Like I can't not want that.
• 56:54
  In fact, Thomas Aquinas, I believe, says acknowledging you
• 56:57
  want to be happy is the beginning of the spiritual life.
• 57:00
  I want to be happy. And this is the thing.
• 57:02
  I think we're losing the battle. We can fight about the language.
• 57:04
  I don't love LGBT language, obviously, I mentioned that
• 57:06
  already. But I think we are losing the
• 57:09
  battle because we're failing to propose a narrative of
• 57:12
  happiness. I want to be happy with every
• 57:14
  fiber of my being. I want, I don't want to settle
• 57:16
  for anything less than the highest happiness possible.
• 57:19
  And I'm just asking God for the grace because He's giving it to
• 57:23
  help me trust that His way is the way to happiness.
• 57:27
  This is where another concern comes up from people who might
• 57:32
  disagree, which is, yes, I want to be happy.
• 57:35
  You're telling me if I do enough childhood work, then I'll be
• 57:39
  somehow at least alleviated the desire.
• 57:42
  And I could maybe even start to have a desire for maybe one
• 57:45
  other person that I could maybe eventually marry and have kids
• 57:48
  with. And I know me.
• 57:50
  I've been me. I've tried me, I am gay, you
• 57:53
  know, must be again, the this pressure.
• 57:55
  Maybe I'm maybe I'm by maybe the by person, you know, because of
• 57:58
  the church's teaching, you can marry someone of the opposite
• 58:00
  sex. So they are like, well, I could
• 58:02
  maybe go the end up going that route, but let's just stick with
• 58:04
  the the same sex attracted person who's solely experiencing
• 58:07
  that or they're saying they're solely experiencing that.
• 58:09
  I should say. Anyways, this is a long, a long
• 58:11
  question again, but they're saying this is me.
• 58:14
  You're you're giving me false hope.
• 58:16
  I think that's where this like real pain I've noticed comes in.
• 58:20
  You're giving me false hope. You're torturing me.
• 58:23
  Just let me be. I understand.
• 58:24
  I got to be chased. We all got to be chased.
• 58:27
  It's going to be a cross, so don't pretend it's not a cross.
• 58:29
  I'm struggling over here. I'm suffering, but I'm going to
• 58:32
  be chased. Do my best.
• 58:33
  Just don't judge me and don't make me not hold on to my gate.
• 58:36
  The label? Gay.
• 58:37
  Yeah, I think it's really important.
• 58:39
  No one should ever force anyone. Like that's God didn't force me.
• 58:43
  And when people tried to force me, that never went well.
• 58:46
  So this has to be something. And in the way I would look at
• 58:49
  it is as simple as this. OK, I, I fought against the
• 58:53
  desires I had for women and I was unhappy.
• 58:56
  Then I gave into the desires and I said, you know what?
• 58:59
  This is going to make me happy. So I lived openly in that
• 59:02
  lifestyle. Still not happy.
• 59:04
  I guess my question to that person would be, why are you so
• 59:08
  opposed to that option like I was?
• 59:11
  I was not opposed to, OK, let me try this, let me be gay, let me
• 59:15
  be open in this and let's see if I'm happy and I wasn't.
• 59:19
  So I guess the thing goes back to free will.
• 59:21
  You have choice. Like I'm not saying you have to
• 59:24
  believe this, but this has been my experience.
• 59:26
  And what inside of you is maybe closed off that you're saying
• 59:31
  this is who I am. I go back to again, I didn't
• 59:34
  create myself. So I'm going to look to someone
• 59:36
  higher and I know that is God, that is the Lord Jesus.
• 59:39
  And so I'm like, God, can you show me who I am?
• 59:42
  See, I think sometimes we're so busy telling God who we are that
• 59:46
  we don't give him space to let him who is creator tell us who
• 59:50
  creation is. And, and usually I think that
• 59:53
  stems from, like it did for me, not trusting that he's good and
• 59:57
  that he has goodness for us. And I would say he's also
• 1:00:01
  Redeemer. So he's creator, He knows who we
• 1:00:04
  are, but he has power to remake us.
• 1:00:08
  And so the dimension of spiritual renewal, the dimension
• 1:00:13
  of God in his mercy, revealing A deeper level of poverty.
• 1:00:20
  I'm not talking about reductionistic psychological
• 1:00:23
  thinking. I'm talking about a deeper
• 1:00:26
  surrender. To the living God.
• 1:00:29
  So I do think spiritual renewal is vital in opening ourselves to
• 1:00:36
  this creator and Redeemer. And that's the work that we do
• 1:00:39
  lie love with Living Waters in, in I believe it's been 45 years
• 1:00:44
  in the making of honing. What are the keys to in some
• 1:00:49
  ways, raising up these foundational realities in our
• 1:00:53
  humanity that have been wounded or frustrated or are dormant?
• 1:00:58
  What are some of the keys in the power of the Holy Spirit through
• 1:01:03
  the blood of the Lamb that we can effectively engage one
• 1:01:08
  another and take ground in these areas?
• 1:01:12
  So I think it's an invitation to growth.
• 1:01:15
  I love what you say about free will.
• 1:01:17
  If you don't want to come, honestly, if you're forced to be
• 1:01:20
  there, you, you make this group hellish.
• 1:01:24
  So you come only by virtue of your free will.
• 1:01:27
  But if you come and if God in his mercy opens your heart to a
• 1:01:33
  deeper level of his redeeming your man or womanhood, that's
• 1:01:40
  only going to be a good thing. And so I would simply say, let
• 1:01:46
  God's Kingdom come to you in a new way and at the very least
• 1:01:51
  have the humility to say I've only seen a little bit of it.
• 1:01:55
  I've seen what I've seen Jesus. Show me more of yourself.
• 1:02:00
  I think that's what we're saying.
• 1:02:02
  This is a Jesus centric invitation.
• 1:02:06
  It's not a new formula. This this format that we've
• 1:02:10
  developed is a is a spirit filled and insightful format,
• 1:02:15
  but it's all about going like this.
• 1:02:17
  It's all about Jesus. I'm, I'm frustrating myself and
• 1:02:21
  other people now I need more of you.
• 1:02:25
  And so I, I'm, I love what you guys are saying here.
• 1:02:30
  May I kind of make a little plug?
• 1:02:32
  So I'm a good friend of Christopher West.
• 1:02:34
  So he was my Big Brother in becoming a Catholic and now I'm
• 1:02:38
  his Big Brother in more sort of integration stuff.
• 1:02:42
  But this Living Waters thing is the pastoral arm of his
• 1:02:46
  institute, Theology of the body. I love, I love, I love
• 1:02:51
  Christopher. So I, I hope and I hope you'll
• 1:02:54
  be there with. I'm I'm planning on.
• 1:02:56
  It so it's February 8th through the 13th there in Lancaster, PA
• 1:03:02
  and it's like a an immersion into this living water.
• 1:03:06
  So if if anybody is even remotely interested, it's a it's
• 1:03:11
  a big ask, but it's a deeper expression of this living water.
• 1:03:17
  So I hope people will come out and maybe think about it.
• 1:03:19
  February 8th through the 13th desert we'll.
• 1:03:22
  Link it. We'll link it.
• 1:03:24
  Andrew I love that, but. I do think, Lila, it's important
• 1:03:28
  that we, I think sometimes we make everything about ourselves
• 1:03:32
  and we forget God. It's not always about.
• 1:03:35
  It's not always about and he cares about us, but I mean
• 1:03:37
  really like to say this is who I am.
• 1:03:41
  Are you going to give God a chance to speak the one who knit
• 1:03:45
  you in your mother's womb, the one who's known you more than
• 1:03:48
  you know yourself? Will we give him a chance to say
• 1:03:51
  who we are? He's not going to force you.
• 1:03:54
  He's not. And so we shouldn't as the body
• 1:03:55
  of Christ Force One another either.
• 1:03:57
  But my my draw would be when I cried out to him, I said, God, I
• 1:04:02
  don't know. I know all the things I feel.
• 1:04:05
  I know all the desires, but I don't know and I'm going to
• 1:04:08
  trust that, you know, And that's what he's been doing is showing
• 1:04:10
  me over these eleven years. So I think sometimes we put
• 1:04:13
  these labels, we do all these things and we forget God in the
• 1:04:16
  midst of all of this, so. We should also add that with the
• 1:04:19
  LGBTQ plus label is not something that's just, you know,
• 1:04:24
  chosen or rejected by adults who are like involved in politics
• 1:04:27
  and culture and kind of like, you know, have a sense of what
• 1:04:30
  people's opinions are on these things.
• 1:04:32
  They're actively being taught to children.
• 1:04:34
  And I think that is where this becomes a bit of a war and where
• 1:04:38
  these things have consequences. Using these ideas as concepts
• 1:04:42
  that then should be taught actively to the next generation.
• 1:04:44
  So you ask that 12 year old, are you gay?
• 1:04:47
  Are you trans? Do you, do you?
• 1:04:49
  Oh if you have these feelings then you might be this label and
• 1:04:52
  identity is 1 hell of a drug. Oh yeah, and you're all.
• 1:04:55
  People are we're all desperate for identity.
• 1:04:57
  We're made for identity are true identities.
• 1:04:59
  But the world offers endless, endless false identities in the
• 1:05:03
  sexuality realm and the desires and attractions realm, but also
• 1:05:06
  in the realm of you know who I am, like why I matter in the
• 1:05:10
  world, what I'm going after. Like, well, I am this.
• 1:05:12
  And like, not to say it's bad to be, say a businesswoman or a
• 1:05:14
  lawyer or a musician, but we can get so high on our own drug of
• 1:05:19
  identity. That's not the ultimate identity
• 1:05:21
  of God's child, right? That we can go totally astray.
• 1:05:24
  So that's the other other, you know, danger here.
• 1:05:27
  And, and with the LGBT Q label, unlike the businesswoman
• 1:05:31
  identity or the lawyer identity or the I'm a, you know, I'm an
• 1:05:35
  artist like this is who I am with LGBT.
• 1:05:38
  You're identifying as something that if you lived it out, you
• 1:05:41
  would be in mortal sin and you would be potentially deeply
• 1:05:45
  damaging yourself and other people.
• 1:05:48
  So the consequences, the stakes are very high.
• 1:05:50
  Very high marriages, counselors, clerics, encouraging middle-aged
• 1:05:58
  men to finally be themselves, to be trans.
• 1:06:02
  No. Or to just leave the family.
• 1:06:04
  You know, finally, now it's your turn, whether it's a man or a
• 1:06:07
  woman. I mean, these are, yeah, there's
• 1:06:10
  eternal consequences, but there are just ripple effects from
• 1:06:16
  misidentifying and but and, and, and I think existentially there
• 1:06:22
  is that the, the, the reward of what it's providing for me
• 1:06:26
  socially. Now I have now I have some place
• 1:06:30
  to be and how sad that our our communities are so disempowered
• 1:06:38
  in a way that simply growing together in Jesus and kind of
• 1:06:44
  just like shedding, shedding worldly things, shedding things
• 1:06:49
  that have secured me in the world because together with my
• 1:06:54
  brothers and sisters, I'm, I'm growing, I'm, I'm thriving, I'm,
• 1:06:59
  I'm becoming more free in, in this sort of community of Jesus.
• 1:07:05
  I I think fools have rushed in to disempowered communities.
• 1:07:12
  Can I say one thing about this? When it comes to labels,
• 1:07:15
  especially with children I've had, I've had parents reach out
• 1:07:19
  to me and say my 8 year old daughter, you know, my 12 year
• 1:07:22
  old daughter, my 7 year old son, they're saying they're gay.
• 1:07:26
  And you know, what makes me so sad is I think, and these are
• 1:07:28
  usually Christian families, is that we have allowed sexual
• 1:07:33
  things to infiltrate everything, right?
• 1:07:37
  Like sexuality and sexualizing things.
• 1:07:40
  Little boys are meant to be drawn to little boys, right?
• 1:07:45
  The world or twist that already and say that that's weird,
• 1:07:48
  that's creepy. No, same sex.
• 1:07:50
  We're meant to have desire for the same sex.
• 1:07:52
  It's not sexualized, especially when you're little.
• 1:07:55
  It doesn't have to be. But now putting these on
• 1:07:58
  children, I mean, do you not remember when you were like 8
• 1:08:01
  years old? You're like, this is my best
• 1:08:02
  friend. I want to be beside her always.
• 1:08:04
  You know, when you get friendship bracelets and you do
• 1:08:06
  all the things now that's like, oh, do you think you're gay?
• 1:08:10
  I think any little child would probably be like, well, yeah,
• 1:08:12
  because I really like her. I really like her.
• 1:08:14
  I want to be close or they see something.
• 1:08:16
  So we we've allowed the world to make any desire almost
• 1:08:20
  sexualized. And I'm like, we got to stop
• 1:08:23
  doing that. And I think that's kind of what
• 1:08:24
  those labels in our school systems and whatnot with the
• 1:08:28
  LGBT saying, well, you might be gay.
• 1:08:30
  No, they have real regular desires that they're meant to
• 1:08:33
  have with the same sex. And the world is trying to
• 1:08:36
  sexualize things. And I think it's really damaging
• 1:08:40
  to our younger generation, but also to us as humanity.
• 1:08:44
  We, we make everything about sex and I just think that putting a
• 1:08:48
  label on someone that's saying because you're drawn or you love
• 1:08:52
  your best friend, that now you're gay, that's not true in
• 1:08:55
  many, I mean many of the cases. We to kind of throw in there a
• 1:08:58
  couple of things about the psychological components here.
• 1:09:01
  We hear a lot about coming out using this LGBT language was a
• 1:09:04
  very relieving thing or psychological is really
• 1:09:06
  beneficial and that is probably a measurable phenomenon.
• 1:09:10
  There is research to show that coming out can reduce shame,
• 1:09:14
  etcetera. However, there is some
• 1:09:16
  interesting research finally being done on coming out about
• 1:09:20
  your desires but not as identified as LGBT and it is
• 1:09:24
  showing is 33 options survey is one of them.
• 1:09:27
  These are real studies. The APA is doing them with a
• 1:09:30
  collaborative research team that actually finally is choosing
• 1:09:34
  participants to participate that are not LGBT identified.
• 1:09:37
  See a problem is a lot of the research in this area is
• 1:09:39
  selected bias and there's a selection bias as towards only
• 1:09:44
  researching LGBT identified individuals for what helps them
• 1:09:47
  psychologically. Meaning they're coming out
• 1:09:49
  experiences I am gay as opposed to an experience of I struggle
• 1:09:53
  with this same sex attraction or I struggle with alcohol
• 1:09:55
  addiction or I have a porn addiction.
• 1:09:57
  And the psychological relief of just coming out and sharing with
• 1:09:59
  your community that I have this struggle is really the thing
• 1:10:03
  that is really universally experienced as opposed to I have
• 1:10:06
  this identification. Yes, you nailed it.
• 1:10:08
  And this research recently that I have been reviewing with a
• 1:10:11
  friend of mine who helped conduct the research, Doctor
• 1:10:12
  Christopher Rosick, who's a Christian psychologist who's an
• 1:10:15
  expert in this area, is showing that a lot of young people,
• 1:10:19
  young men in this case, who were religious and resolved that
• 1:10:22
  inner conflict by coming out as identified with primarily the
• 1:10:26
  religious identity, showed similar levels of reduced
• 1:10:29
  depression and shame related to the coming out process for those
• 1:10:32
  who came out as LGBT identified. And this doesn't even address
• 1:10:36
  subsequent mental health disparities that still exist in
• 1:10:40
  LGBT identified populations. So they have reduced it's shame
• 1:10:43
  and depression for coming out as LGBT, but they continue to fail
• 1:10:48
  at many other metrics in terms of disparities.
• 1:10:51
  By fail, I mean in terms of researchers, they still have
• 1:10:54
  much statistically significant higher levels of OCD,
• 1:10:57
  depression, substance use. And these are pervasive studies.
• 1:11:00
  And we can question the why and that could be a different
• 1:11:03
  debate. But my point is coming out as
• 1:11:05
  LGBT is not the a, only way to reduce shame around your issues.
• 1:11:08
  And B research is finally starting to take seriously.
• 1:11:11
  There are people like us that that didn't come out as gay but
• 1:11:15
  still felt benefit. When I first told a priest, Oh
• 1:11:17
  yeah, Oh my gosh, I was drowning in shame.
• 1:11:21
  I, I was terrified. And then he was like, let's talk
• 1:11:23
  to your parents. And then that was even scarier.
• 1:11:25
  But eventually that was the path towards freedom from shame.
• 1:11:29
  Well, and not to make it about me now, but come on.
• 1:11:32
  But you know on a related. Issue.
• 1:11:35
  I'm tired of this. I had depression and an eating,
• 1:11:40
  you know, disordered eating, I'll call it, like, was it, you
• 1:11:42
  know, anorexia or bulimia or some like version of the two,
• 1:11:45
  whatever. But it was disordered eating and
• 1:11:47
  temptations to self harm. And there was a time, you know,
• 1:11:49
  thankfully not a long period, but a time when I was doing, you
• 1:11:53
  know, some limited self harm as a teen.
• 1:11:54
  I was like out of my mind, you know, all the time up in my
• 1:11:57
  thoughts. My issues weren't sexuality
• 1:11:59
  issues at the time, but they were absolutely identity issues.
• 1:12:01
  I was not sure, like, should I even be here?
• 1:12:04
  Some of the darkest moments of my life, and it was when I, you
• 1:12:07
  know, a friend threatened to tell my parents if I didn't tell
• 1:12:09
  them first. As I was drowning, I was also
• 1:12:12
  drowning. A different drowning, but still
• 1:12:14
  a drowning and it wasn't until I told my parent, well, told a
• 1:12:17
  friend, then told my parents got help and thanks be to God.
• 1:12:21
  I feel like I've had, you know, like 95% healing.
• 1:12:24
  I say 5% because I still have tough days, not where I have the
• 1:12:27
  same temptations, but there's different temptations and
• 1:12:29
  negative thinking and you know, different versions of the same
• 1:12:33
  the same beast of just not being fully living in the identity as
• 1:12:36
  I'm a loved daughter of God, right.
• 1:12:39
  But I share that because that's relief of bearing all and
• 1:12:44
  getting help and support to be seen and appreciated and known
• 1:12:48
  and loved for what you're going through and where you're at.
• 1:12:50
  And then getting the help you need is life changing for I
• 1:12:53
  think anybody. And we have to learn how to, I
• 1:12:56
  think we're all very much in accord with not assuming this
• 1:13:01
  kind of socio cultural political label that you don't have to
• 1:13:05
  assume, you just don't have to do it.
• 1:13:07
  So maybe not so helpful, but I think we're all aware that as
• 1:13:13
  pretty whole men and women now, I would say I think we're all
• 1:13:17
  pretty whole men and women now. We still have to find and keep
• 1:13:22
  using the language of, yeah, I'm struggling today.
• 1:13:25
  I'm vulnerable today. I'm tired.
• 1:13:28
  I just, I, I, I, I really failed in my aspirations this last
• 1:13:34
  month, if you will. I'm a bad example.
• 1:13:37
  And I'm just feeling insecure and a little bit more inclined
• 1:13:42
  to sort of masculine empowerment in this false way, You know, I
• 1:13:48
  mean, talk about it. Just say it.
• 1:13:50
  Just say, hey, can you just pray for me?
• 1:13:52
  I'm I'm aware through this kind of fleeting symptom that I need
• 1:13:57
  shoring up in in my my my historically vulnerable area.
• 1:14:03
  Well, I think if if you're like a married person and you have
• 1:14:05
  recurring attraction to someone who's not your spouse, you got
• 1:14:09
  to like surrender that talk about that like, you know, put
• 1:14:12
  up boundaries to protect your marriage.
• 1:14:14
  If if, you know, depending on the intensity and you know, I
• 1:14:16
  think like I remember when I first got married, I'd have
• 1:14:18
  these dreams and there would be like random exes, not like that.
• 1:14:22
  I even like I had no desire to be with them.
• 1:14:24
  I'm like, why am I? And I realized there was a
• 1:14:26
  spiritual component which was part of it.
• 1:14:28
  And I was like, OK, well, you know, thankfully that's
• 1:14:30
  alleviated with, you know, we're 7 seven years married.
• 1:14:33
  But I think that's, you know, again, it's another form of, you
• 1:14:37
  know, disorder. And I want to get to the
• 1:14:38
  discussion of homophobia because it's next.
• 1:14:39
  It's another, it's another form of the frailty of the human
• 1:14:44
  person. And we're like not locked in
• 1:14:46
  perfect. You know, we're always and, and
• 1:14:48
  we're complex. We have our memories and the
• 1:14:51
  memory is so powerful, and we have our fears and our traumas
• 1:14:54
  and there's a healing process in this life that's real, but there
• 1:14:57
  is still weakness that accompanies all of us.
• 1:15:00
  And that's why we have to be in community and be known in
• 1:15:04
  community. And this is where I'm so
• 1:15:06
  grateful to have my evangelical background because evangelicals
• 1:15:11
  are much better at establishing peer community.
• 1:15:15
  They're geniuses at it. And that's why these communities
• 1:15:18
  flourish among young adults, because they know how to gather
• 1:15:22
  people according to their ailments and their recovery
• 1:15:26
  issues and so on. Catholics, we can also do this,
• 1:15:29
  but because we're so used to the professionally religious, I only
• 1:15:34
  tell my secret to the priest or to my director or my maybe my
• 1:15:39
  Catholic therapy. So it's, it's I tell the truth,
• 1:15:43
  but I do it to professionals. I really don't do it.
• 1:15:46
  So we say, oh, you know, I confess my sins, you know, in
• 1:15:50
  the mass every day to my brothers and sister.
• 1:15:52
  But actually my brothers and sisters don't know anything
• 1:15:55
  about me. They don't know really what,
• 1:15:58
  what drove me almost crazy, you know, the night before.
• 1:16:01
  And so I think to find this in a reasonable way and in a sense to
• 1:16:06
  covenant together, to walk with each other, to take further
• 1:16:11
  ground and chastity is crucial. And we would say it's crucial.
• 1:16:16
  We wouldn't say, oh, I just needed this six months of
• 1:16:19
  intensive XY or Z, Yes, I love intensive things.
• 1:16:24
  I love opportunities where we pull away and God is able to do
• 1:16:28
  more, if you will. But I think the ongoing
• 1:16:32
  responsibility that we have to choose healthy communities is
• 1:16:37
  critical to our growing and integration.
• 1:16:42
  And without it, I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot
• 1:16:45
  and setting ourselves up for the failures of others who have
• 1:16:48
  sometimes been championed because of tremendous
• 1:16:51
  breakthroughs in their lives. But the communities and their
• 1:16:57
  own commitments to community afterwards broke down and all
• 1:17:02
  they had was an amazing story from the past that the enemy
• 1:17:07
  just came in like a flood and and and wrecked havoc on their
• 1:17:12
  poor lives. So I do think we represent some
• 1:17:15
  history now of what is really helpful in walking this out and
• 1:17:21
  what is not. And so Yep.
• 1:17:24
  Homophobia. That's one thing I wanted to ask
• 1:17:27
  you all about and your your take on because I do think there's
• 1:17:31
  people that are vicious and shaming and that does exist now
• 1:17:36
  today, it's very uncool to be that way.
• 1:17:39
  We had on the show Joe Dallas and he was saying I was gay
• 1:17:41
  before it was cool. And I was like, OK, you know,
• 1:17:44
  today it's cool. But back then it was like scary
• 1:17:46
  to be gay. You know, you could get beat up
• 1:17:48
  for it. And, you know, I don't think
• 1:17:50
  anybody who has sexual temptation or attractions or
• 1:17:54
  desires or even comes out and says, I want to be gated, I
• 1:17:57
  should get beaten up like this is it's evil, it's wrong.
• 1:18:00
  That being said, there is this question in the church today of
• 1:18:04
  how does how do what's the posture that we should have to
• 1:18:07
  people who, yes, are actively identifying as LGBT?
• 1:18:12
  And is homophobia a real issue that many people have where they
• 1:18:18
  actually are, like, especially hateful of people like this or
• 1:18:21
  demeaning towards them? And do we need to, like, tackle
• 1:18:24
  our inner homophobia? What is your experience and your
• 1:18:27
  take on that? Yeah.
• 1:18:28
  I think it's AI think it's kind of a hidden homophobia that I'm
• 1:18:32
  seeing. I don't know if I'd label as
• 1:18:33
  that. I, I will say I do think there
• 1:18:35
  are people that are just hateful, right?
• 1:18:37
  And that's inside the church and outside the church.
• 1:18:40
  And that's never OK, right? Whether it be towards a race or
• 1:18:44
  someone who identifies within the LGBT community, there are
• 1:18:47
  people who are hateful. And that I, I don't think that
• 1:18:50
  our world will be rid of that. But I think what we see, what I
• 1:18:54
  see very often in the church is maybe more than a homophobia,
• 1:19:00
  but I think it's a form of it to a degree, is hip hypocrisy where
• 1:19:04
  we are so highlighting homosexual sin and we're not
• 1:19:10
  paying attention to the common sexual heterosexual sins that is
• 1:19:15
  happening. An example of that would be
• 1:19:17
  receiving an e-mail from a mom saying that she's concerned
• 1:19:21
  because her daughter said she might be gay.
• 1:19:24
  My response back, do you have a son?
• 1:19:26
  Yes. Great.
• 1:19:27
  Is he dating someone? Yes, he is.
• 1:19:30
  OK, but it's a female. Do you think they're sexually
• 1:19:32
  active? I don't know.
• 1:19:35
  So there's a a focus on her daughter and her sexuality
• 1:19:40
  because the word homosexual came up, which we know acted upon is
• 1:19:44
  sinful, but she's not paying attention or asking questions to
• 1:19:48
  her son who's in a committed relationship with a female.
• 1:19:51
  She doesn't want to know what they're doing.
• 1:19:54
  So I think it's kind of this, we've elevated, we've kind of
• 1:19:58
  made what I would say. You have the special sentence.
• 1:20:01
  Yeah, yeah, like almost like the modern day leper, to be honest.
• 1:20:05
  And it's horrible. It's doing a disservice to the
• 1:20:07
  body of Christ. It's doing a disservice to the
• 1:20:09
  person who is living this lifestyle.
• 1:20:13
  And and so I think it's more of a hypocrisy that I see within
• 1:20:16
  the church and it's sadly pretty common.
• 1:20:19
  There was a a man I just spoke at a conference man said he was
• 1:20:23
  talking to his friend and his daughter came out said dad, I
• 1:20:26
  think I'm gay and his son is sexually active with his
• 1:20:32
  girlfriend and he's turned a blind eye.
• 1:20:35
  So there's nothing I can really do about that.
• 1:20:37
  But he's honed in on the daughter.
• 1:20:38
  What do I do? It's almost like we forget how
• 1:20:41
  to be Christian when someone says homosexuality and it's
• 1:20:44
  really sad. That's not how God deals with
• 1:20:46
  us. That's not how you know it was
• 1:20:48
  Jesus was with sinners, tax collectors that were stealing
• 1:20:52
  prostitutes. A lot was going on, but he
• 1:20:55
  didn't like it. We know that sexual sin is
• 1:20:58
  different than stealing a pack of gum, but ultimately it's not
• 1:21:00
  trusting God, right? And so I think we've done a
• 1:21:03
  really bad job as church in kind of segregating certain sins.
• 1:21:09
  And I, I think it's damaging to the body of Christ and I think
• 1:21:12
  it's damaging to the person who is struggling or living in this
• 1:21:15
  lifestyle as well. So I I'm absolutely in favor of
• 1:21:19
  discussing the church's teaching on this topic.
• 1:21:22
  But when we overemphasize sexual sin, especially among
• 1:21:28
  adolescents, and they're also struggling with homosexual
• 1:21:32
  issues, it can reinforce unhelpful shame narratives and
• 1:21:37
  levels of fear that cause emotional repression.
• 1:21:41
  And that repression does not aid somebody in living a flourishing
• 1:21:46
  life or in living chastely. So that's a big concern of mine.
• 1:21:50
  So you're talking about an overemphasis?
• 1:21:51
  Because I think we can go the opposite, right?
• 1:21:53
  And then just ignore it all together.
• 1:21:55
  And we're living in a culture of extremes.
• 1:21:57
  So it's like it's all sex today. And then it's like in the
• 1:22:00
  church, you know, what do you do?
• 1:22:01
  You do the all sex and go the opposite direction of no, you
• 1:22:04
  know, basically no sex. Or do you?
• 1:22:06
  Do you never bring it up? If I may say, I think phobia.
• 1:22:10
  I think what you're describing with a father maybe being upset
• 1:22:14
  about a son or a daughter who's saying I think I'm gay.
• 1:22:18
  I don't think they're being phobic.
• 1:22:21
  I think they're saying I don't know what to do about this.
• 1:22:24
  I'm concerned. So if I'm conscious about it,
• 1:22:28
  I'm not phobic. I'm just aware that I am very
• 1:22:32
  troubled by this and I may not be responding very well to you
• 1:22:36
  right now. I don't know what to do.
• 1:22:39
  So I don't know if that's phobic.
• 1:22:41
  I think it's it's like maybe a poor response.
• 1:22:45
  Well, that's what I'm saying, I think.
• 1:22:46
  It's but the. Culture.
• 1:22:48
  Maybe I'm being I think the. Culture would say, like, you
• 1:22:51
  know, the LGBT culture would say that's internalized homophobia.
• 1:22:54
  You know, I don't think. You're you're feeling upset that
• 1:22:56
  your son is gay. You're you're internalized.
• 1:22:58
  Homophobia. I would just say no, bigot, you
• 1:23:00
  know, yeah, yeah, I would say no.
• 1:23:01
  I I'm. I don't understand that and I'm
• 1:23:03
  troubled by that. I think that's one thing.
• 1:23:05
  I think another thing though, and I think this is more
• 1:23:08
  pronounced and I I experience it myself with trans culture.
• 1:23:14
  It's so obvious. So the visual is so present.
• 1:23:18
  So I'm surrounded by people in my culture where I live that I
• 1:23:23
  cannot identify them sexually. I don't know if they're male or
• 1:23:27
  female. And so I am in a position
• 1:23:30
  socially of engaging with them and I find myself at a loss.
• 1:23:35
  So I think as this as as things have devolved in, in terms of
• 1:23:40
  sexual identity, that's my take on it.
• 1:23:43
  And we're we're we're, we're now dealing with, right, You know,
• 1:23:49
  whatever the causes are, we're now dealing with people who are
• 1:23:53
  dissolving in their sexual selves.
• 1:23:56
  And we have to kind of make sense of that.
• 1:24:00
  And so I think the very fact that we're I, I sometimes feel
• 1:24:05
  troubled, I feel anxious. I don't know how to bless this
• 1:24:11
  person because we're created to live in the duality of either
• 1:24:16
  being male or female. So when someone is dissolving
• 1:24:19
  their sex, I am in a disoriented position.
• 1:24:25
  I do think there are people in our culture who just get angry
• 1:24:29
  at that. They're consciously angry and
• 1:24:32
  they want to, you know, they rant and rave.
• 1:24:35
  And I don't think that's helpful.
• 1:24:37
  But I think we have to find a way through that because I think
• 1:24:41
  it is. It's only being human to say I
• 1:24:46
  am not able to discern your humanity.
• 1:24:50
  And at that point, I think that's not because I have a
• 1:24:53
  prejudice. It's because something is going
• 1:24:57
  on that is is disorienting me in truth.
• 1:25:03
  So I think we have to own that and give people space to say,
• 1:25:07
  yeah, this is really disorienting to me and I have to
• 1:25:11
  find my way through that in a way that is as per Jesus.
• 1:25:15
  I want to be an agent of the Kingdom here to this person, and
• 1:25:20
  I need help to do that. But I fundamentally don't think
• 1:25:25
  it's my problem. I think it's my Jesus invitation
• 1:25:30
  to me to find a way through that, to to be able to bless
• 1:25:35
  their humanity in an authentic and real way.
• 1:25:38
  In other words, I don't want to back off.
• 1:25:41
  I want to press in and I don't know how.
• 1:25:45
  And I think that's the case for most Christians of goodwill.
• 1:25:50
  I don't think it's because they just have ancient bigotry and
• 1:25:53
  you got to. Agree.
• 1:25:54
  I totally agree. That's the that's the convenient
• 1:25:56
  label put on it by an activist kind of narrative, basically.
• 1:26:00
  Well, I guess one thing that comes to my mind too is to kind
• 1:26:03
  of redirect a little bit back to what I mentioned, because I want
• 1:26:06
  to clarify as well. When I say what should we do
• 1:26:10
  instead of what should we not do?
• 1:26:12
  I think to help people with integration is to always promote
• 1:26:15
  a positive vision of human flourishing.
• 1:26:17
  So let's go back to that. What's our what's our narrative?
• 1:26:21
  And I think one thing comes to mind for me is when we separate
• 1:26:23
  the procreative and unitive components of sexuality, then we
• 1:26:27
  lose a little bit of the game here as well to a young person.
• 1:26:32
  If we talk about the natural connection with babies and
• 1:26:35
  marriage and family, the positive vision of sexuality
• 1:26:38
  rightly lived, it naturally orients me as an individual to
• 1:26:43
  being understanding of the teachings that will lead me to
• 1:26:45
  that, to that good end. So I think just really
• 1:26:48
  emphasizing with families and parents, especially if you're
• 1:26:51
  listening to this and you have young children, don't be afraid
• 1:26:54
  of your church's vision of human flourishing.
• 1:26:57
  Don't be afraid of that because it's a vision of flourishing
• 1:26:59
  that is stamped into the human being's personhood comes to mind
• 1:27:04
  for me. I think the, the church today is
• 1:27:08
  dealing with the culture today, which has all of its wounds and
• 1:27:13
  chaos. I think going back to children
• 1:27:16
  though, because we've talked about, you know, how do we help
• 1:27:19
  children and and what the LGBT I'd consider it a lobby.
• 1:27:23
  It's an activist group in ideology, its impact on
• 1:27:25
  children. It's very damaging.
• 1:27:27
  And I think back to the bigotry question and homophobia
• 1:27:30
  question. I think sometimes a righteous
• 1:27:32
  indignation and anger about how children are being harmed and
• 1:27:36
  corrupted. I mean, we've had people on the
• 1:27:38
  show who at young ages were picked up by older people in the
• 1:27:42
  LGBT community and ultimately abused sexually.
• 1:27:46
  Now that happens in non LGBTQ community, but there's an active
• 1:27:50
  grooming for sexual activity that can never be good.
• 1:27:54
  That's the thing. There's no good end to it,
• 1:27:56
  right. The trans issue is another one
• 1:27:58
  adjacent. We didn't deep dive that too
• 1:27:59
  much here. You know, you just mentioned
• 1:28:01
  that Andrew, but you know, young children saying, yeah, you can.
• 1:28:03
  Let's have you socially come out now as the boy that you really
• 1:28:05
  are when you're a girl. And then they're getting these
• 1:28:07
  chemical, you know, surgeries later, chemical taking
• 1:28:10
  chemicals, you know, cross sex hormones and surgeries later.
• 1:28:13
  So I think there's actually a healthy righteous anger that
• 1:28:17
  needs to be ordered towards love of the people that we have
• 1:28:19
  concern about what they're doing and never go to bigotry or
• 1:28:22
  hatred or or, you know, wanting to destroy them as human beings.
• 1:28:26
  And I actually think some of that's healthy in the church
• 1:28:28
  because it is a war for souls and it's a war for children and
• 1:28:31
  their protection. I think it's what we do with it,
• 1:28:33
  right? So there, I mean, there's,
• 1:28:35
  there's righteous anger and hopefully not towards the
• 1:28:38
  person, but what is happening, right?
• 1:28:41
  And and maybe what that person is engaging in.
• 1:28:43
  And I think if we can separate that and Paul says it right,
• 1:28:45
  this is not a battle, battle of flesh and blood, but of spirit
• 1:28:49
  and principality. And I think sometimes we forget
• 1:28:50
  who the enemy is. We look at each other and say
• 1:28:53
  you're the enemy and then we attack that person, whether it
• 1:28:56
  be on, you know, any which side or angle.
• 1:28:58
  And we have to remember there's one enemy, there is one enemy
• 1:29:02
  and it is Satan and he hates God and he hates anything of God and
• 1:29:07
  any and, and creation, right. And so I think a lot of times
• 1:29:11
  there, there, yes, there is a righteous anger, but I hope it's
• 1:29:14
  not a self-righteous anger because that never does well,
• 1:29:17
  that never does well. And growing, you know, I've, I
• 1:29:20
  have 4 grown kids now and a bunch of grandkids and they grew
• 1:29:24
  up with their dad who was publicly talking about coming
• 1:29:28
  out of homosexuality. And our, our household was
• 1:29:32
  surrounded by men and women dealing with various kinds of
• 1:29:36
  sexual brokenness and significantly same sex stuff.
• 1:29:40
  And so I had to talk to my kids very early on about what their
• 1:29:46
  mom, you know, their mom and dad was doing and who, where we came
• 1:29:50
  from and who we were and what our commitments were and, and
• 1:29:55
  all the people around them. And the good thing about that,
• 1:29:58
  and I would say this to all parents, you, you have to engage
• 1:30:03
  your kids early leading off with what is good and true and
• 1:30:07
  beautiful. And then also, and there's so
• 1:30:10
  many people who don't know that so many of your friends at
• 1:30:12
  school don't know that. Some of you, we were in the
• 1:30:15
  public schools in LA, you know, some of your teachers don't know
• 1:30:19
  that, but how great it is, you know, so you lead off with this.
• 1:30:25
  It's truly a fortress of goodness that's made alive by
• 1:30:30
  Jesus. Really, you got to have that,
• 1:30:33
  that Jesus helps us to live it. Not just this is the ethic, but
• 1:30:37
  this is our life in Jesus and what we can live.
• 1:30:43
  And then my kids would become the advocates for those who were
• 1:30:49
  a little further out on the playground, you know, that were
• 1:30:52
  the kind of irregular kids. You know, my kids had a vision
• 1:30:57
  for them. You know that.
• 1:30:59
  How could I be their friend? You know, obviously there's
• 1:31:02
  something going on there. I'll be the inviter and the
• 1:31:06
  includer, but not to say, well, that's who Jimmy is really Janie
• 1:31:12
  or you know, Kim is just gay. You know, I, I worked with them,
• 1:31:17
  you know, when they bring that stuff home, I'd say no.
• 1:31:19
  Well, you know, that's not, that's not reality, kids.
• 1:31:24
  And so it's good you can do that, but you have to do that
• 1:31:28
  because that's what's in the mix and that's what your kids are
• 1:31:32
  facing all the time. So it's just being a little bit
• 1:31:36
  more proactive preventative strikes and you can do it.
• 1:31:42
  So good, so much wisdom. We could go for hours here
• 1:31:45
  because there's so many different questions to explore.
• 1:31:50
  You all come from different ministries and approaches that
• 1:31:53
  have served people who are themselves wrestling or they
• 1:31:56
  have loved ones who are wrestling with these questions.
• 1:31:59
  So to close this out, I'd like to hear each of you share.
• 1:32:01
  What do you think are the best resources today inside and
• 1:32:05
  outside of the church? Michael, are you still taking
• 1:32:07
  clients? I do, but you know, I have a
• 1:32:11
  very small part time practice. So I think more than promoting
• 1:32:14
  therapy, I would say promoting good parenting really.
• 1:32:19
  And by the way, I know we've talked about how the
• 1:32:21
  psychological origins are complex and multifaceted.
• 1:32:25
  So I'm not here blaming parents, but one of the things that I
• 1:32:28
  think Christian parents really struggle with at times is
• 1:32:30
  learning to. My therapist would be proud of
• 1:32:32
  me for saying this, but learning to reflect their children's
• 1:32:35
  experience back to them without fear.
• 1:32:37
  And that means instead of shutting them down, reflecting
• 1:32:41
  them as they present to you. And I don't mean just with
• 1:32:43
  sexual issues, with their emotions, with how they're going
• 1:32:46
  through life, with the things they love or they don't love.
• 1:32:48
  We want them to learn to trust themselves and trust God, but
• 1:32:52
  trust their human experience, their embodied reality.
• 1:32:55
  So really finding good resources and parenting communities that
• 1:32:58
  can both be attentive to the spiritual dynamics we're talking
• 1:33:02
  about here today with these issues, but also just the normal
• 1:33:04
  developmental human things that children need, which is patients
• 1:33:08
  loving, kindness, care and reflecting of their experiences
• 1:33:11
  to them. As I mentioned, I have a YouTube
• 1:33:14
  channel called Mr. Michael Sings, which can be resource and
• 1:33:17
  a tool for parents that's going to be building on a Catholic
• 1:33:19
  anthropology of man. And I'd love for families to go
• 1:33:22
  check out the channel and subscribe and like it.
• 1:33:24
  But there are great resources and these guys have some of them
• 1:33:27
  next to me. And the last thing I'll say
• 1:33:29
  about this is we believe, all of us at this table, I think, that
• 1:33:32
  the Church's teachings on human sexuality are good news.
• 1:33:36
  It's good news, people. Hard news, so good news it's.
• 1:33:39
  Good though, it's so good, and I'm a work in progress.
• 1:33:43
  I'm on the journey. God is healing, but gently and
• 1:33:46
  gradually. And I'm learning to love my
• 1:33:48
  littleness and my poverty because it's what makes God.
• 1:33:52
  It's an entry point for His mercy into my life.
• 1:33:54
  So here I am, in all my littleness.
• 1:33:56
  But just saying that you're not alone if you're struggling with
• 1:33:58
  this. I remember what it was like to
• 1:34:00
  be afraid and just reach out, get help, seek support.
• 1:34:04
  There are communities available. Yeah, I think something that's
• 1:34:08
  really important is testimonies. We see it in the Scripture that
• 1:34:11
  testimony is prophecy and other people's lives.
• 1:34:13
  And so, you know, we can we can argue all day long and throw
• 1:34:17
  stones at each other, but are we willing to like listen to each
• 1:34:20
  other's experiences? And there's many people out
• 1:34:23
  there that have had these experiences, maybe similar to
• 1:34:26
  your kids, but at minimum, maybe it's not your own family, but
• 1:34:30
  maybe be just what the world is going through as well.
• 1:34:32
  And so I think testimony is very important.
• 1:34:34
  It's not everything, but it should be the testimony of
• 1:34:37
  Christ in someone's life. I, I've found that to be very
• 1:34:40
  helpful. I find it to be an open door for
• 1:34:43
  people to listen and say, wait, I kind of relate with them.
• 1:34:47
  Like this kind of makes sense, right?
• 1:34:48
  And so it's human to human and, and to see the possibilities of
• 1:34:53
  what God can do. So as as you mentioned earlier,
• 1:34:55
  I do have a new show called Here I am stories.
• 1:34:59
  And it's that it's just people sharing their stories, their
• 1:35:02
  real life, being vulnerable with the world and, and just putting
• 1:35:07
  it out there so others who might be searching might find hope.
• 1:35:11
  There's great ministries. I love Andrews, He'll he'll talk
• 1:35:13
  about that more. But there are ministries in the
• 1:35:15
  church. I know in the Catholic Church,
• 1:35:17
  we have courage and encourage. No ministry is going to be
• 1:35:21
  perfect. I think what we want so often is
• 1:35:23
  like, I just need one ministry to do it all.
• 1:35:25
  No, we need Jesus and he's working in the body of Christ.
• 1:35:29
  So we need to probably one of the ministries that I love
• 1:35:32
  absolutely love is JP 2 healing John Paul 2 healing ministry.
• 1:35:37
  What they're doing right now is so beautiful.
• 1:35:40
  It's getting to so many things just in the human person and
• 1:35:44
  it's not just looking at us from just the spiritual doctor Bob
• 1:35:48
  shoots is part of it. Yeah Jake Kim and so I think
• 1:35:52
  that seeing us as a a whole person spiritually, physically,
• 1:35:56
  emotionally, all of it otherwise we're we're leaving out such
• 1:36:00
  parts of ourselves that that the Lord wants to come and bring
• 1:36:03
  wholeness. And so I, I personally, yeah,
• 1:36:06
  believe in testimony of the Lord active in people's lives and
• 1:36:10
  then healing ministries as well. Beautiful, so good.
• 1:36:13
  And shout out to EWTN for helping promote and publish
• 1:36:18
  here. I am and love, love both of
• 1:36:20
  those. Andrew, close us out.
• 1:36:21
  What would be recommendations and maybe there's one that you
• 1:36:24
  lead that folks can hear about again?
• 1:36:27
  Horizon No. It's beautiful.
• 1:36:30
  What you're, what you're doing is that model of the small group
• 1:36:33
  and the community model is, I wish it was in every parish what
• 1:36:36
  you're doing. Absolutely I I wish it were too.
• 1:36:38
  Been at it for a while. I love Christopher West, so
• 1:36:42
  anything he writes the theology of the Body Institute.
• 1:36:45
  Like I said, we're partnering with them.
• 1:36:47
  February 8th through the 13th, I wrote a new book, Rediscovering
• 1:36:53
  Our Lost Fullness, using JP 2's language that I would recommend
• 1:36:59
  that. But yeah, so many good things.
• 1:37:03
  I, I love body life. I love commitment to my local
• 1:37:07
  parish. You can't get that online.
• 1:37:10
  You can't get the host through the camera.
• 1:37:13
  I want to I I like just being where I live with the people I
• 1:37:19
  worship with. So that to me is a baseline
• 1:37:22
  thing. So go to church, get back to
• 1:37:25
  church, just make a commitment. You don't need the sexy pastor.
• 1:37:30
  Just participate of Jesus fullness in your local parish
• 1:37:35
  would be helpful. Thank you.
• 1:37:38
  Thank you all so much. What a blessing.
• 1:37:40
  This is so fun. We got to do this again.
• 1:37:42
  I'm so grateful for all of your willingness to just share
• 1:37:46
  personally as well as the ministries that you're a part of
• 1:37:49
  and the work that you're a part of professionally that serves so
• 1:37:51
  many souls. So thank you so much.
• 1:37:53
  You're. Welcome and thank you, Lila.
• 1:37:55
  Thanks, Lila. Thanks so much for listening to
• 1:37:57
  this episode of The Lila Rose Show.
• 1:37:58
  I hope you enjoyed it. I always do.
• 1:38:01
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• 1:38:06
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