Latest / The Virtual Couch / From Fairy Tale to Real Life: A Marriage Therapist's Raw Take on the Journey from "I Do" to "What Now?"

Transcript

From Fairy Tale to Real Life: A Marriage Therapist's Raw Take on the Journey from "I Do" to "What Now?" · The Virtual Couch

0:21
Hey, everybody.
0:21
Welcome to a, I would say a very special edition of the virtual couch because this
0:25
one I'm leaning into this impulsivity it it might just be the riddle and talking,
0:30
but I just felt so impressed to record because I just got off of a, an episode
0:37
with my friends, Jeff and Tricia Jamison.
0:39
We host a podcast called the Q and a files.
0:42
Trisha Jamison is the, I'd say the main host.
0:44
She's a life coach.
0:45
Her husband, Dr. Jeff is a doctor.
0:48
And then I play the role of the therapist and we take a
0:50
lot of questions and it's fun.
0:53
I enjoy our banter.
0:54
And then we each have a little bit of a different perspective
0:56
on what the questions are.
0:57
Today we interviewed a young couple named Hannah and Cody,
1:02
and I don't know Hannah and Cody.
1:03
I just met them on the recording, but.
1:06
Yeah.
1:06
As we were talking about why couples get together, what they like about
1:10
each other at first, and Trisha was asking the questions about how do you
1:15
keep your love alive and what do they anticipate that will help put them in
1:19
a position where they will still feel this this deep love down the road.
1:23
And and I just sat there scribbling notes.
1:26
, note after note,
1:28
I have nine sticky notes full of things.
1:30
, it was a really fun experience for me personally, because I
1:33
recognized , it's just a check this out thing of where my mind went with.
1:39
Their answers.
1:40
And I realized some of it is probably coming from a place that would sound
1:44
a little bit cynical, almost like, and I so don't want to be this guy,
1:48
but it's almost from a place of where, well, just wait till they get a little
1:51
bit of road underneath the tires.
1:52
And then they see how challenging marriage can become.
1:56
Because I remember very specifically my wife, Wendy and
1:59
I, . We were in California.
2:01
We had probably been married.
2:02
I would say less than 10 years.
2:04
We didn't have kids and we had kids seven years in.
2:07
So it was somewhere between probably year four and seven.
2:09
, I really felt like our marriage was just amazing.
2:12
And it did seem like, well, this is going to be pretty easy.
2:15
, , it would frustrate me when someone would find out how long you've been
2:17
married and they would say, Oh, just wait till you have kids or just wait
2:21
till you've been married for 20 years, or just wait until, and throughout
2:25
that period of time, it seemed to me that we would then have a kid and then
2:30
think, okay, we're, we're still good.
2:31
And then someone would say, well, wait, do you have two kids?
2:34
And then we'd have a couple of kids or they would say, well, wait till
2:36
you've been married for 15 years.
2:37
And we'd hit the 15 year mark and.
2:40
It really frustrated me because I did realize at some point, someone will
2:44
always have a just wait until I remember someone that I used to interact with.
2:47
Often they were about five years older than me.
2:50
, I remember I was in my thirties, probably mid to late thirties.
2:52
And at this point I was chasing a Boston marathon qualifier.
2:56
I'm starting to run ultra marathons.
2:58
And so they're saying, well, just wait until you hit 40.
3:01
And then I remember hitting 40, hitting 45, 50, still Being active
3:06
and wanting to do these things.
3:07
And that person is still continuing to say, well, wait till you're 60.
3:10
I guess we'll have to wait until I'm 60 to see what that looks like.
3:14
And I know that that's a way that people want to ease their own discomfort.
3:18
Let's say that their marriage , isn't going well, or they're, they don't
3:22
feel like they're in the place that they want to be from a fitness level.
3:24
And so they're saying You just wait until you get to be where I'm at, because then
3:29
it has to be the wheels have to fall off.
3:31
Or that might mean that I could have done something different to put me in
3:34
a position where let's say my wheels have not fallen off yet at this point.
3:38
And I know that isn't an all or nothing statement, or that
3:40
isn't where everybody's at.
3:42
So what I wanted to do was I'm going to go through my sticky notes and I know
3:45
it's going to bring up some marriage related concepts and topics that are
3:50
things that I can give this perspective, coming right out of this interview with
3:53
Cody and Hannah, where it does feel like wanting to say, Oh, well just wait.
3:59
But I love what they said.
4:00
They had a great foundation to build on.
4:03
And so whether you're listening to this right now and you've been
4:05
married for a very long time, and if you find yourself saying, Oh yeah,
4:09
just wait until these guys, until Cody and Hannah have more experience.
4:14
Is it because, , I don't necessarily like where I'm at currently in my
4:18
marriage or where I'm at relationship wise, but I would love to just bring
4:24
some awareness to that doesn't mean that then you are done, it is time to fold
4:28
in the towel and I want to throw some real life marriage therapist advice in
4:32
to balance where your thoughts go, when you hear some of these things, these
4:35
ideals that that Cody and Hannah shared.
4:37
So I highly recommend that you go to this Q and a files episode and listen to the
4:42
interview with Cody and Hannah, with Jeff and Dr. Trish and I, and maybe even go
4:46
there first and then come back and listen.
4:48
And it might be better.
4:49
. It might be better in that context.
4:50
I love doing couples therapy.
4:53
It's still odd to say that because I think you do need as a therapist to
4:57
get a lot of reps under your belt, have a nice framework, be able to Have
5:03
the confidence to help guide couples to these communication frameworks.
5:07
My four pillars of a connected conversation, help them understand the
5:11
concepts around differentiation, how to embrace the things that they have
5:16
control of including their reactions, and then how to get out of their
5:20
comfort zone and how to truly be known.
5:25
Which means be able and willing to share really how I feel and also to
5:29
know their partner to be able to stay present and maybe check their ego if
5:35
their partner is sharing things with them that might be difficult for me to
5:39
hear because that is again, a me thing.
5:42
But over the past few years, I've been doing more and more premarital counseling.
5:46
for having me.
5:47
And also people that are newly married have come to me just to
5:52
want to know what they don't know.
5:54
And this has been thanks to some parents that I've worked with in the past,
5:58
or even I know that some have been high school friends who are now in a
6:01
position where their kids are getting married , and they've offered a, Hey,
6:05
we want to give our kids a chance.
6:06
Five sessions so that they can just have a real good basis or a framework
6:10
to operate from, which by the way, if that is something that you are
6:13
interested in gifting your kids, then please reach out to me at contact I'm
6:18
currently working on putting together some material to put out a newlywed
6:23
course or a pre marriage course, because I think that would be really helpful.
6:27
Here's the challenge with that though, because the newlyweds
6:30
don't know what they don't know I have found it very interesting.
6:35
That when you are trying to provide them with the right tools,
6:38
that it can feel really scary.
6:40
And I'll give you a good example of this.
6:42
I was doing some pre marriage counseling with a couple that I really like, and
6:46
they appear to be doing very well.
6:48
Now they've been married a few years.
6:50
I'd worked with the wife and just loved her to death, worked
6:53
with her as an individual.
6:54
They came in for pre marriage counseling and I'm sharing my four
6:57
pillars of a connected conversation.
6:59
And I'll go through these in this example.
7:01
So I was talking about, Wanting to just have a low charge example of something
7:06
that either one of them struggles with at this point in the relationship and
7:10
I could talk about what the best way to communicate about that I'm going to change
7:14
this a little bit just to try to maintain some semblance of confidentiality.
7:17
, let's say that the wife, , she was the girlfriend at the time shared that there
7:21
are times when they were going to go do things with her family or his family and
7:26
she just noticed or felt like he didn't put a lot of effort into his appearance.
7:31
And this is where I want to say, if you are immediately thinking She seems very
7:35
judgmental or shallow, I promise you that she's not, this is how she feels.
7:40
This is just coming from a place of curiosity because it's not that
7:44
then she feels like she needs to get dressed like she's going to an elegant
7:47
gala, but she puts herself together.
7:50
It looks very presentable.
7:51
And so since he doesn't, this is truly coming from a place of curiosity.
7:55
So she shares that and.
7:58
And so I say, okay, perfect.
7:59
Let's run this through my four pillars of a connected conversation.
8:02
Now I'm excited about it because I like this person.
8:04
I like this girl.
8:05
I think this guy seems really cool.
8:07
And I think this is it.
8:08
This is a great example of where I can then say, boy, watch what we do when
8:13
we don't really know what we don't know and watch our immaturity kick up here.
8:16
And, but I immediately see that he looks a little shocked as if
8:19
he's never heard this before.
8:20
and he even said, Oh no, I can do, I can dress up.
8:23
I can do better.
8:24
And then I said, Oh, stop right here.
8:25
So let's break this down.
8:26
Let's look at the game film.
8:28
Here's the four pillars of a connected conversation in action.
8:31
To him, let's just call him, I don't know what's let's go with the Brady bunch.
8:34
Let's say Bobby and Cindy.
8:35
I'm talking to Bobby and Cindy Brady.
8:36
Although that would be awkward because I guess they were a
8:40
step brother and sister Okay.
8:42
Anyway, those are the names Bobby and Cindy.
8:45
So let's say that then Cindy is saying, okay, when we're going to go
8:49
do something, Bobby he appears to not care much about his appearance, or
8:53
he doesn't really seem to do much.
8:54
And so often I'll save this because we're going to get into
8:57
her train of thought in a second.
8:59
So then I say to Bobby, all right, here's my pre pillar.
9:02
Before we even get to pillar one of giving someone the benefit of the doubt
9:06
or assuming these good intentions.
9:08
There's a reason why your partner is saying this.
9:11
You need to separate your observation from your judgment.
9:14
So he's observing this thing that she is saying.
9:17
And I guess he's really hearing it, but for the sake of my pre
9:19
pillar observation judgment, this is part of Marshall Rosenberg's
9:23
book, nonviolent communications.
9:25
So he needs to, what does he, if he's observing she's Making this
9:30
statement about his appearance that the judgment he is putting on
9:33
that is that she doesn't like me.
9:34
She thinks I'm a slob.
9:36
She's embarrassed to be out in public with me.
9:38
We need to separate that because the, well, all what he's hearing is her saying
9:41
she thinks that he doesn't seem to care as much about his appearance and that
9:47
she's curious about that because then she thinks that then when they're out and
9:51
about with her family, maybe even his family it's like that song from childhood.
9:55
One of these things is not like the other, maybe the rest of them look
9:58
somewhat presentable and I don't know.
10:01
It doesn't seem like he's over there looking like an unmade bed.
10:04
But
10:04
but again, this is why I'm just grateful that.
10:06
She's bringing this up because it's something to definitely
10:09
look at as a muse to talk about.
10:11
So then separate that observation from judgment and I walk
10:14
him through that process.
10:15
Now we can get to pillar one.
10:16
Assuming good intentions.
10:17
She's not trying to hurt him and or there's a reason why there's
10:20
a reason why she's saying that.
10:21
And so now we're going to start being more curious.
10:24
Now, he can't say that she's wrong, or I don't believe her.
10:27
There's that there's that pillar too.
10:29
Now he can think that she's wrong.
10:31
He can even think that, well, I put a, I literally put on a tuxedo everywhere I go.
10:35
So I don't understand.
10:36
So that if that's the case, then, Oh, I can understand why he's confused but
10:40
right now pillar two, he's going to, that's a internal, that's something
10:44
that he just needs to notice right now.
10:45
I can't tell her that's ridiculous or you're wrong, And there's a lot
10:48
of ways that we break pillar two.
10:50
Some of those are immediately saying you do it too.
10:54
Or, well, you don't seem to take a lot of care in what you're putting on.
10:58
So that is telling that person you are wrong or I don't believe you.
11:02
Or if you jump right into, well, when, give me an example, because you
11:06
can see how that would come off as very defensive and what these four
11:09
pillars are trying to do is keep a conversation from veering off into the
11:11
woods, as I like to say, we're trying to stay engaged with the conversation.
11:15
And you can see our immaturity is what gets us into these tip for tat all or
11:19
nothing black or white thinking the pursuer and withdraw the just freeze.
11:23
And then just wait until the storm of the conversation passes, which
11:27
then gets us into pillar three, which is questions before comments.
11:31
So he could assume good intentions, not tell her she's wrong, but then immediately
11:35
say, Hey, well, you don't even understand.
11:37
This is what this was like when I was a kid, because that still feels like I'm
11:41
telling her, Hey, you're actually wrong.
11:42
So questions before comments, tell me more.
11:45
Help me.
11:45
Help me see my blind spots.
11:47
And this is where if you are really doing this from a place of
11:49
curiosity, then give me some examples.
11:52
Cause I'm still curious to know what that's like for you.
11:54
Because I want to know you.
11:56
I want to understand what your experience is.
11:59
Pillar four is for him to then not go into any kind of victim
12:02
mindset, for him to stay present.
12:04
So let's say that he says, okay, fine.
12:05
I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt.
12:07
I'm assuming good intentions.
12:08
I'm not going to tell her she's wrong or that I don't believe her.
12:10
And I'm going to ask questions.
12:11
Tell me more.
12:12
What does that look like?
12:13
Give me examples.
12:14
Help me see my blind spots.
12:16
And she gives him some.
12:17
, and then if he just says, no, yeah, you're right.
12:20
I don't know.
12:21
I don't even know why you're with me because yeah, that's probably
12:23
pretty embarrassing because then now she has to go rescue him.
12:27
She then has to say things like, no, it's actually, no, you know what?
12:30
I don't know why I said it.
12:31
I don't even know why I brought it up now.
12:33
That would make him feel better.
12:34
That would alleviate his discomfort.
12:35
Sure.
12:36
But now she is feeling like I don't, I can't bring things up.
12:40
You can see where even on a low charge topic, the tool I think is so powerful.
12:46
These four pillars, there can be a lot of immaturity and a lot of ways to get
12:51
out of our discomfort in a conversation.
12:53
So it takes a lot of courage to stay present.
12:55
And it starts to, you feel some tension and we're so afraid that that tension
12:58
is going to jump up the contention.
13:00
And most I think of us in the relationships are
13:02
somewhat conflict avoidant.
13:04
We want things to just work out great, but tension is where the growth occurs.
13:08
Growth comes from that discomfort.
13:10
So that's why these tools I think are so important.
13:12
So in this scenario, if he can stay present and now say, thank you so much
13:16
for sharing that I can understand why that might be frustrating or even
13:19
just why you're curious about that, because I'm grateful that you asked me.
13:23
Wouldn't that just be this amazing way to communicate in your relationship?
13:28
Now he gets to.
13:30
Be the speaker.
13:30
She's the listener and the same rules apply.
13:33
So now he gets to share.
13:34
Let me go on my train of thought.
13:37
And I remember at that time, it was just something that he just
13:40
wasn't necessarily as aware of.
13:41
He talked about growing up in his family and, and there just
13:44
wasn't as much emphasis put on.
13:46
And I don't want to make it sound like looking presentable.
13:49
They didn't just go out looking like cave people and just wearing
13:52
loincloths and dragging clubs around.
13:54
But it was Let's just say that maybe there wasn't as much of an emphasis on
13:59
this appearance going out or a certain look going out, but what happened first
14:04
was he did have a hard time hearing it and he did start to shut down and she
14:09
did say, I shouldn't have brought it up.
14:11
And he did say, no, I can do better.
14:14
I can dress up more.
14:15
And it was such a fascinating experience because I'm just trying to say, Hey,
14:19
let's talk about a low charge topic.
14:20
Let me give you this framework.
14:21
And I promise you that if you stick to this framework, then you will
14:25
know so much more about your partner.
14:26
You will be able to communicate about things because if anything
14:29
is on your mind, then you have this vehicle that you can then
14:32
say, Hey, can I tell you something?
14:34
And the other person says, of course, because I'm assuming good intentions.
14:37
Now I'm going to separate my observation from my judgment because if the person
14:40
then says when you walked by me earlier today actually several times today and
14:44
didn't look at me, isn't this interesting?
14:46
I thought you were mad at me.
14:48
Cause now if the other person can then say again, Oh, I'm,
14:50
I'm assuming good intention.
14:51
I'm not going to tell her you're wrong.
14:53
And I'm going to say, wow, that, yeah when was that?
14:55
Or what did that look like?
14:56
Or I'm curious how, what were you feeling like at that time?
15:00
Tell me more about that.
15:01
Then you're going to feel heard and understood.
15:04
And then he could still have his experience of, honestly, I was just,
15:06
I was wrapped up in something I was yes, I was on my phone, but I was
15:10
trying to research something that I thought the, that I thought I really
15:14
needed to do some research on or so we can both feel heard and understood.
15:16
But this conversation, did tend to go toward the immature responses.
15:20
And my point with this couple was the vibe in the room that I felt was that there was
15:25
this underlying discomfort and fear , and almost this feeling that they were saying,
15:31
okay, I don't think this is very helpful.
15:33
So , when I'm working with people in a, you know, In a premarital setting
15:36
or in a newlywed setting, I still believe entirely that the tools would be
15:40
amazing tools to have the four pillars or to understand about differentiation.
15:44
I could really spend time with him there and if he's saying, if
15:47
I'm saying, what are you feeling?
15:48
I feel embarrassed.
15:49
I feel ashamed.
15:50
I feel picked on.
15:50
I feel scared.
15:52
Well, those are you.
15:54
Feelings, which is great because now we're learning here's what differentiation
15:58
looks like is that when she says these things, here's the emotions and
16:02
feelings that it brings up for him.
16:04
Now, if we can get to a place of curiosity, that is amazing.
16:07
We can four pillar those things and you really will learn about yourself in
16:10
the relationship, which is a big goal.
16:13
So that was a much longer introduction to today's topic than I had intended,
16:17
but I just wanted to let you know that that's what was so fascinating
16:19
about hearing Chad and Hannah story.
16:21
Have Because that's going through my mind and that'll maybe give you some
16:24
context of the notes that I wrote down.
16:26
So I'm just going to go through the notes , and they probably won't
16:28
seem like they're in order, but I think I think there's some gold here.
16:31
The first one I put was, you will find what you look for.
16:34
The the expectation effect or in in the Christian faith seek and ye shall find.
16:40
And.
16:41
I know it's not that simple, especially when people have been married for
16:44
a long time and they're battling their own visceral or gut reactions.
16:49
But if I, if my wife wants to find my immaturity, she can
16:54
find it on a regular basis.
16:56
And then at that point, If she does that over an extended period of time,
17:01
then her experience is noticing when I am not being perfect or not showing up.
17:06
If we are looking for the good in our partner and looking at them with love,
17:12
with empathy, making that choice, choosing them, then over time what we're seeing
17:16
are those things about our partner that we really like and we really appreciate.
17:20
And whole object relations is a really fascinating concept where that does
17:25
allow me to view my partner as a whole object that absolutely I can be
17:30
frustrated with the way maybe they chomp their chips or I don't know,
17:34
something that they do, but I also love the way that they show up as a parent.
17:38
I love the way that they help take care of things in the home.
17:41
I love the way that they're curious
17:42
I love the things that they do to make the home feel more of a safe place.
17:46
But then I can also still notice my frustration, the way
17:50
that they chomped their chips.
17:51
And I also jotted down on my notes in the beginning, it's
17:53
easy to talk about easy things.
17:55
That was a theme that kept going through my mind in the exciting parts of the
17:58
relationship, when the relationship is new, we may even say, Oh, here's what I
18:03
think it will be like when we have kids and the other person can even say me too.
18:06
I wonder what it will be like here.
18:07
Maybe this will be a challenge.
18:08
But then when you have kids, all of a sudden it's real.
18:11
And so at that point, It could be a more difficult thing to talk about, and that's
18:16
really where the growth starts to occur.
18:18
How do we talk about our differences?
18:20
How do we talk about these things that we don't know how to talk about,
18:22
which is where I would love for people to have this foundation already of
18:26
these four pillars of a connected conversation or understanding these
18:28
principles of differentiation.
18:30
Early in my couple's therapist career.
18:32
I, and it's funny, I went back to the sticky notes for this interview as I
18:37
was listening, but I would just jot down things on a sticky note that I thought
18:40
were fascinating throughout the day.
18:42
It could be about work.
18:43
It could be about something I've heard.
18:44
And I would put that sticky note in my back, right pocket.
18:47
And when I would get home, there was always almost always a sticky note in
18:50
my back, right pocket with a few things that I. could share with my wife.
18:54
And some of the homework I would give couples at the time was to do something
18:57
similar and then try to take at least 15 minutes three times a week and make
19:02
that time intentional to go over a couple of these things that happened in
19:06
your day and things that show that you were being intentional about wanting
19:10
to share something with your spouse.
19:11
Cody mentioned early on that he was choosing making that
19:15
choice to spend time together.
19:17
And I loved the fact that they were already going with this
19:19
choosing being intentional.
19:20
I'm choosing you.
19:22
I'm making time for you because that's where the relationship has
19:26
a chance to grow and flourish to really get to know each other.
19:28
I wrote a note.
19:29
That said, to be %, 100 percent present when you are together and Hannah then
19:34
very quickly followed up and said almost the same thing of saying that and
19:38
when we're together to be intentional.
19:40
And she talked about putting our phones away and just really being in the moment.
19:44
And I think that's so powerful, especially for the kids these days, a
19:47
younger couple like Cody and Hannah.
19:49
And that would include being able to say no.
19:52
Because I think this is where you start looking at some of the origin stories and
19:55
relationships of the people pleaser, where we want to spend time with our spouse.
19:59
, and if we have something that we have committed to or need to do,
20:03
whether it's for work or something we've committed to do , with someone
20:06
else, a project, is it something that I need to honor that commitment to,
20:11
to act from a place of integrity.
20:13
But my fear is that my spouse will then be upset with me.
20:17
While it's.
20:18
Absolutely.
20:19
An important thing to be intentional and make time to be with each other.
20:22
And when we're together, we're very present in those moments.
20:25
But I've noticed over the years that it really is important as a me thing, a
20:30
personal growth thing, that if I commit to someone, especially to my wife or
20:34
my kids, that this is what I'll do.
20:36
I believe that in that moment.
20:38
A person truly does believe that I am there.
20:40
I am all in.
20:41
I will meet you wherever you need me.
20:43
I will do the things you're asking because it feels good and I want you to like me.
20:48
But then let's say that several days later, someone makes me a better offer or,
20:53
and I see this a lot with, okay, there's an opportunity for me to make money,
20:56
provide for my family, but I've committed to do this thing for my wife, for my kids.
21:01
And at that point, then I go ahead and I make the commitment.
21:03
I'll say, I will do this thing to make money for the family because
21:06
I know that we need more money.
21:08
But then when I go and I express that to my wife,
21:11
but if this is something that she was counting on, she had built her week
21:14
around, then a couple of things there.
21:17
Number one, if I am going to make this other commitment, then I think
21:20
it's absolutely okay to say, Hey, let me just check with the family.
21:24
Let me check on the family calendar.
21:26
Let me just run this by my spouse.
21:27
And I'm not doing it from a place of saying, Hey, will you give me permission?
21:31
Because I don't want my wife to be my mom in that scenario.
21:35
But I want to have a mature adult conversation and say Hey, tell me
21:39
more about this On Saturday, because I am, I want to be, I am here for you.
21:44
I want to be here for you.
21:45
I'm committed to you.
21:46
You are my partner.
21:47
I am choosing you, but I have an opportunity to do this other thing.
21:52
And that's where you start to see, you need both people to have that courage
21:55
to have a, it might be a difficult conversation because if my wife at that
21:58
point had said, well, I made a bunch of different arrangements, I scheduled,
22:02
this is why this is important to me.
22:04
Then that might be my answer.
22:06
I, man, I hear you and I want to show up for you right now.
22:09
I see you.
22:11
I'm giving her that opportunity to then share her true thoughts and I want
22:16
to honor my commitments and maybe the growth and the discomfort comes in,
22:20
well, I need to say no to this person.
22:22
That is offering me this other opportunity and I'm not doing it just because I'm
22:26
afraid I'll get in trouble with my wife or I'm not doing it because I
22:29
want her to say, thank you so much.
22:31
You're my hero.
22:32
I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do if I'm operating from a place of
22:34
integrity, but I have to have that courage to have an uncomfortable conversation.
22:39
But I also have to give her a chance because let's say that
22:42
then I say no to this person who had this opportunity maybe extra
22:45
money to bring into the family.
22:47
And I tell the person I can't, I don't, I don't know, I'm worried
22:50
my wife will be mad at me.
22:51
You can see the energy there.
22:53
And also I never gave her a chance to show up.
22:56
If I am worried, she'll be mad at me.
22:58
So therefore I did not say this thing.
23:01
Then I'm not giving her a chance to even show up and have her own experience, have
23:04
her own feelings, have her own emotions.
23:06
I've already made that choice for her, which in that realm, it can
23:09
be a little bit selfish of me.
23:10
That I am saying, , I didn't think that you would be okay with that
23:14
give her the chance to be okay with that, to have that courage, to be
23:17
able to have that conversation.
23:18
Hannah said some amazing things in this interview.
23:22
, she just talked about curiosity, being curious about her husband, about Cody.
23:26
And she said, because, and this was so important.
23:30
She said, because.
23:31
I know that things are going to be constantly changing
23:34
later in the interview.
23:35
. She said, , you change.
23:37
because you're going through things.
23:38
So obviously your spouse is doing the same.
23:41
And when I was asked to give them some advice later on in the
23:44
episode, I went back to that point.
23:47
And I said how much I appreciated going into a relationship, knowing
23:51
curiosity is important, but even more so that I will change in a relationship.
23:55
And of course, my partner will change as well.
23:57
And I brought this up with Dr. Jeff and Trish, because Trish
24:00
does a lot of couples coaching.
24:02
And we were talking about these shared experiences we have where people come
24:06
into my office and they say, you've changed as if that's a bad thing, or
24:10
you're not the person that I thought you were, or that you're not the
24:14
person that I married 20 years ago.
24:16
And I say in those sessions well, that's good.
24:19
I'm glad because hopefully we are evolving and we are changing and we're
24:23
on this path of learning the things we didn't know that we didn't know.
24:26
And I think it goes back to, it's easy to talk about the things that are easy
24:29
early in a relationship, but then when we go through things in life, just
24:33
life's all over us and we have kids and financial issues and there's pressures
24:36
and there's deaths in the family extended.
24:39
And there's just so many things happening that.
24:42
We, of course, are going to change those things all become our muses.
24:45
They become the things that are happening, that we are interacting
24:48
with to understand ourselves better.
24:50
And that's why I think it's so important to have a healthy relationship, to
24:53
have a partner that then I can come to and say, let me take you on my train
24:57
of thought when this happened, when this experience happened, when you
25:00
said this, when my boss said this, when the kids had this experience at
25:04
school, this is what I'm thinking.
25:06
This is what it brought up for me.
25:07
And I've chosen me and I'm okay with where I'm at.
25:12
What do you think?
25:13
I want to hear your opinion because now we're two completely different
25:17
individuals going through life together.
25:18
We've chosen each other.
25:19
And of course, we're gonna have different experiences.
25:21
So now we're gonna, we're going to communicate about these issues.
25:26
I go back to this phrase I learned in emotionally focused therapy for couples
25:29
trainings that were designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human that
25:34
we are this dyadic collaborative union.
25:37
That's the hope.
25:38
That's the goal.
25:39
But if I say something and my partner becomes immediately offended and they
25:44
then try to point out things that they think I am doing wrong, I'm just being me.
25:49
I'm expressing myself.
25:50
This is the very first time that it is me going through life as me.
25:53
So check this out.
25:54
This is what I'm thinking.
25:55
This is how I'm feeling.
25:57
And I want to share that with you.
25:58
I want us to be able to express these things together.
26:00
So curiosity, constantly changing with that acceptance, having the
26:03
tools, being able to show up and have these, this adult mature conversations
26:08
with one another is the goal.. They talked about meeting on hinge.
26:12
And I just wrote out a note where I said, online dating, who do I need to be versus
26:17
even older old school online dating where you filled out a 30 page questionnaire.
26:25
And so did everyone else on the site.
26:27
And then the sites would make their money in the success of their
26:32
algorithm to, to match people together because they had so much data.
26:36
, I went with my old joke of the online dating world.
26:39
Now it is puzzling to me Because, and I've, I've never been, I've
26:44
never had a dating profile.
26:45
I've been married 34 years.
26:47
But I've worked with so many people going through, I've helped people
26:50
create their dating profiles.
26:51
I've taken pictures in my own office of people where that's part of the
26:55
helping them grow through their discomfort to then give them to,
26:58
to work on their dating profile.
27:00
I've had more sessions, individual sessions.
27:02
Where we've talked about dating profiles, people showing up for dates with people
27:07
that they met on these dating apps.
27:08
I guess I'm trying to say here are my credentials.
27:11
So hear me, but the dating apps to me are three pictures and they
27:17
need to have one by a waterfall.
27:19
You must have one and you have to get ahold of a golden retriever
27:22
and he needs to be wearing a red bandana and maybe a little name tag
27:25
that says scout or buddy or skipper.
27:28
I don't know, but you're excited to be with him and you're in the outdoors.
27:31
Maybe you've been throwing a stick or a tennis ball.
27:34
And then there's one where you are holding your little adorable niece or nephew and
27:40
I don't know, maybe even you're blowing some bubbles or a dandelion something that
27:44
is exiting a bubble or dandelion thing.
27:47
And then you have.
27:48
A couple of movie quotes and there's your profile.
27:51
No 30 pages of let me tell you what my junior year of high school physics and
27:56
the frustrations it brought me, but it's.
27:59
It's movie quotes and pictures.
28:01
It sets the table for someone to show up and try to figure out who they need to
28:05
be to get this other person to like them.
28:08
I think it feeds this narrative of emotional immaturity of the false self.
28:12
And now it's a game of you go first.
28:14
What do you like?
28:15
Oh, I like baseball.
28:17
Then I get to say, I love baseball.
28:19
And they say, who's your favorite team?
28:21
And all of a sudden, if I don't like baseball, I'm thinking, I don't even
28:24
really remember what the team names are.
28:26
I don't want to say the wrong one.
28:27
So I say, well, who do you like?
28:29
And they say the Dodgers.
28:30
And then you say, oh my goodness, I love the Dodgers.
28:33
And then they say, who is your favorite player?
28:35
And I say, honestly, it's hard for me to choose.
28:38
Who do you like?
28:39
Well, I like these two players.
28:40
I like the second one.
28:42
And I think that we're doing that.
28:44
And we mean well, because we don't know what we don't know.
28:46
And the people that are showing up in those situations they like this person.
28:50
So they, I imagine in those moments are thinking, I will learn to like
28:54
baseball because I like this person.
28:56
I brought this up to Cody and Hannah, and they were wonderful about this.
29:00
Cody is a huge baseball guy.
29:01
Hannah said that she Admitted and acknowledged that she does not know
29:05
about baseball, but she's curious because if he seems so passionate
29:08
about it, then she wants to know more.
29:10
She doesn't already have to know more.
29:12
And Cody spoke very well to this saying that he also felt like
29:15
it was difficult to be authentic in the online dating world now.
29:19
And people do show up and try to.
29:22
Hit the algorithm so they will get in front of more people.
29:25
So more people might swipe on them and say yes, so then
29:27
they can go out on more dates.
29:29
And then there's a good version of that where then I'm in this dating pool, I
29:34
call it being in the laboratory and I'm gathering data about, Oh, I had a hard
29:39
time really stating my opinion or being myself versus, Oh, I continued to stay.
29:44
Confident.
29:45
I continue to stay emotionally consistent, but then the other person
29:48
had a problem, but it can be really difficult because of the rejection
29:53
that people face in that scenario.
29:54
So I can understand that that can be difficult.
29:57
I liked where Cody was going with that.
29:59
And it sounds like they had a good experience with that.
30:01
They talked about.
30:02
When they said, I love you and here, we're just going to buzz through a lot of these.
30:06
We're going to do a speed round.
30:07
They said it took them two to three months to say, I love you.
30:11
, and I thought that was fascinating because there are people that
30:14
say I love you after a week.
30:16
And there are people that they're months in and still coming into
30:21
my office and saying, I don't know when to say, I love you.
30:24
And a lot of times their partner is saying it, but then they
30:27
just say, I'm not really sure.
30:28
And that's a fascinating conversation to have, because what we're
30:31
looking at now is things like, what is your definition of love?
30:34
Do you feel like it is just the euphoric feeling of feel good
30:36
chemicals, or is it something more?
30:39
Do you feel like that is a serious commitment?
30:41
And I'm not sure if I'm ready to make that while some people can.
30:45
Somewhat and I, in my mind, I think of it of giving away the, I love you
30:49
phrase because to them, it, it means, all right, we are locked in now.
30:54
Exploring that different meaning of what it means to
30:55
say, I love you is interesting.
30:57
Here's one that I thought was fascinating to Cody and Hannah like this.
31:01
Hannah said that Cody would ask, Hey, what are you thinking about
31:04
, there are multiple versions of.
31:06
Why we do that their versions of that where there's almost this form of
31:11
projection that if I want her to ask me what I'm thinking about, then I'm going
31:14
to ask her what she's thinking about.
31:16
So am I asking because I'm truly curious or am I asking because then she will
31:20
say something and then she knows to now say, what are you thinking about?
31:23
So now I can express my feelings.
31:26
And that's one I have seen often in my office, and I know that
31:30
I have been that guy as well.
31:31
That is a more emotionally immature version versus, Hey,
31:34
can I share something with you?
31:35
That was interesting.
31:36
Cody had this rule out , he said, , I'm going to wait a year.
31:40
And he said, it's hard set.
31:41
I will date a year before we get married, before we get engaged.
31:45
And this was a really interesting part
31:47
of the interview, because this is an absolutely, I love Dr. Jeff and Tricia,
31:52
but they were Both they know Cody and Hannah and I thought it was really
31:56
fascinating that they were both saying we knew we knew you wouldn't wait because of
32:00
who Hannah was and I know they're saying it because she's an amazing human being.
32:03
They know Cody and his family really well.
32:05
And so it's fun.
32:07
It's easy.
32:07
It's nice to say, I knew, I knew you guys were locked in before, maybe
32:12
even before you did, because we do want to, it makes us feel good.
32:15
And it often makes the person we're talking to feel better as well.
32:18
So I just, I'm making a note of that.
32:21
But what I loved was Cody had said, this is this hard set rule, but
32:25
let's break that down a little bit.
32:26
So he's saying, I need to set this arbitrary timeframe before
32:29
I'm going to do this thing that I've never done before marriage.
32:33
And I don't even know the person yet that I will put
32:35
into this, Arbitrary timeframe.
32:38
This is where I think the world of acceptance and commitment therapy comes
32:40
in strong with psychological flexibility to know that I can set this goal of, all
32:46
right, I am going to wait a year, but I don't even know what that will look like.
32:49
I don't know what it'll look like at nine months, 10 months.
32:51
And I don't even know what that will feel like.
32:53
It's the great unknown.
32:55
So I'm accepting the fact now that, that might change, but I
32:58
would love to make it to that year.
33:00
Now, why?
33:00
Because is it the, I got to see all the seasons?
33:03
I want to say cliche, but that's fair.
33:06
Why a year?
33:07
Is it arbitrary?
33:08
maybe you had a visitation from someone one evening and you can't share it.
33:12
And the person said, if you don't make it through a year, then I
33:16
don't know, you'll be destitute.
33:17
But if I can make it to a year, but I can't tell anybody, I haven't
33:20
run into that yet, but I guess technically I wouldn't because the
33:22
person wouldn't be able to tell me.
33:23
Psychological flexibility is just knowing that, Oh, check this out.
33:26
I wanted to wait a year, but I didn't, I wasn't with Hannah and I didn't
33:29
know things would go this well.
33:31
And so , I'm gonna relax that boundary.
33:33
Tricia asked, how did you know that she was the right person for you?
33:37
And this was great.
33:38
Again Cody listed a lot of wonderful qualities.
33:43
He said, I was looking for someone who was this and this and this and this.
33:48
And so therefore.
33:49
I deemed that she was those things.
33:51
And so then I knew and understand that this is my 20 years as a
33:56
marriage therapist, just looking at this from a place of fascination.
33:58
They did nothing wrong.
33:59
Of course, that's what they are saying.
34:01
That's how they are feeling.
34:02
That's what happened.
34:03
This is just me sharing that it's somewhat adorable to then we want confirmation.
34:08
We want certainty.
34:09
We want to know we made the right decision.
34:11
We will often then say, Oh, this is, I knew that I knew
34:15
it because of these things.
34:17
Is that something we're doing and as we move past the decision to then say, okay,
34:22
I can't just say this is the decision I'm making based on the data I have right now.
34:26
So good luck.
34:28
We'll see how this goes versus no.
34:30
That is when I knew that I made the right decision because.
34:34
The right and wrong principle is so fascinating.
34:37
I had my, in my Pathback online pornography group,
34:41
which go to pathbackrecovery.
34:43
com or reach out to me at , , contact.
34:45
tonyoverbay.
34:46
com.
34:46
I'll give you a coupon code.
34:47
Join this men's group.
34:48
It's amazing.
34:49
This is the one helps people remove porn as their unhealthy coping mechanism.
34:54
And there's a real strength based hold the shame way that I do that,
34:57
that I am so confident about.
34:59
So please go find the path back program and reach out to me.
35:02
I'll give you a coupon code, but we just spent an entire evening on one of the
35:07
group calls talking about acceptance and commitment therapy, because I'm,
35:11
I just said the year of 2025, this is something people must learn because it is.
35:17
It starts from the place of I'm okay.
35:19
I don't have automatic negative thoughts.
35:20
I don't have stinking thinking.
35:21
I just think and I feel because I'm me and I'm going through
35:24
life for the very first time.
35:25
So check that out.
35:26
And with that, there was a little bit of a debate about someone saying, well,
35:31
I don't want to do the wrong thing.
35:33
I'm going to do a thing, and then if everyone is happy with
35:36
the thing, or I'm happy with the thing, then I did the right thing.
35:38
But if somebody says, I don't like that thing you did, it's natural for us to
35:41
feel like, oh man, I did the wrong thing.
35:43
I blew it.
35:43
You didn't blow it.
35:44
You did the thing.
35:45
You did it.
35:45
Now we can look with curiosity at, let's look at all the variables around
35:49
why you did that thing that you did.
35:50
again, these sticky notes are in no particular order.
35:53
This one, I wrote a note.
35:55
Cody wasn't looking for love, so he could be more authentic.
35:59
And I really like this concept.
36:00
If I'm going into the dating world, or I'm going into relationships, accepting
36:03
the fact that I may not find love, then I'm not trying to figure out what to do.
36:07
Um, what do I need to do to find love?
36:09
What am I looking for to know that I love her?
36:11
She loves me versus I'm going in being my authentic self.
36:15
And that means that I might have answers to questions that she may
36:19
not appreciate and that's okay.
36:22
We gotta have our differences because that's going to be a much more solid
36:26
start to a healthy relationship.
36:28
This was interesting and I will continue to say I love Tricia and Jeff.
36:33
Tricia said.
36:34
Hannah talked about a great sacrifice that Cody made.
36:37
He had been apparently accepted to medical school back in the East coast.
36:40
She was in her, it sounds like going to law school where they were.
36:43
He turned down this medical school back East so that he could stay and
36:48
spend time with Hannah and get married.
36:50
And so she said it was such a sacrifice.
36:52
And I love that Tricia is such a positive person.
36:55
And she said, I don't really think that that was a big sacrifice.
36:58
And it's just interesting because.
37:00
That's where I love the curiosity.
37:02
Hey, tell me more about that sacrifice.
37:04
Cody, was that a sacrifice for you?
37:05
Because often when we are telling someone, even when it sounds great, well, yeah, but
37:09
I don't think that you handled that wrong.
37:11
Even if I said, you know, I'm worried that that wasn't my
37:14
best, the best me showing up.
37:15
And if somebody said, Oh, you don't even need to worry about that.
37:17
You were great.
37:19
That sounds good.
37:20
But then I was just told that my feelings and emotions were wrong.
37:23
So I know I'm putting more into this than it was.
37:26
And Tricia is such a nice person that if she listens to this episode, Tricia,
37:29
you did a great thing saying, I don't think it was a big sacrifice, but.
37:33
Cody may have felt like it was, Hannah might've felt like it was.
37:37
And so I love the concept of being curious about that.
37:40
And that led to, I guess I will be the equal opportunity offender.
37:43
Cause Jeff just said some really good things after Cody mentioned
37:46
that he was putting Hannah first.
37:50
And Jeff said that it's so important to put each other first.
37:53
And he had talked about that.
37:55
In his more emotionally immature days that he had put himself in his career first.
38:00
And I just, that's such an interesting thing because I, that's, it goes back
38:04
to, is that something that just needs to happen over time is to learn that you do
38:11
need to acknowledge and put your needs first because I'm the only one That
38:18
over time is going to take care of me.
38:20
When I am okay, when I raise my emotional baseline, , when I feel like I'm operating
38:24
from my best self, when I love me, then I can fully love you because I'm not trying
38:29
to figure out how do I get you to love me?
38:31
Because I don't feel like I love myself.
38:33
And this is where it can be so difficult because Early in a relationship, if I'm
38:38
telling, I most likely wouldn't say you must put yourself first because it's
38:43
going to sound selfish so that's one that I think is as difficult to communicate
38:46
early in a relationship, because right now I would imagine people hearing
38:49
this are having a lot of, yeah, butts.
38:50
Oh yeah.
38:51
But if you put yourself first, , And now we go all or nothing.
38:54
Well, then you're not thinking of the other person and you're
38:56
selfish and you're a narcissist.
38:57
And then nobody can count on you.
38:59
And you're just going to do your own thing.
39:00
And the next thing, you know, you're going to be living in this van down
39:04
by the river and doing all kinds of.
39:05
Yeah.
39:06
Bad things.
39:06
In reality, what it is is it's saying that, okay, if I'm feeling emotionally
39:10
overwhelmed or I'm exhausted and I need some time for myself to recover and
39:14
to raise my emotional baseline and I don't advocate for myself, then I am
39:18
giving up myself in order to try to please others or to fill others cups.
39:23
At the expense of my own.
39:25
And if I do that over a period of time, I lose myself.
39:28
I don't know who I am.
39:29
It's so important to find yourself, your sense of self.
39:32
What are the things that you like?
39:33
What are the things that you want to do?
39:35
And I think Cody then followed that up with a very emotionally
39:38
mature comment where he said that over time, he recognizes that.
39:42
He is going to need new things, new excitements, new passions, learn
39:46
new things because he said that will reinvigorate you as an individual.
39:50
And then he can share those new things with his spouse, with Hannah.
39:54
And hopefully Hannah's doing the same thing and she can share
39:57
those with Cody, which right now I told them that sounds so amazing.
40:01
And I stopped short of saying, when are you guys going to go buy the unicorn?
40:05
And have you already seen your leprechaun?
40:07
Because it just sounds like that's ideal.
40:09
It's perfect because it is in.
40:11
But what happens is over time, if I am not putting myself first, if I'm not
40:17
engaging in self care, it is not selfish.
40:19
I'm so sorry if that is a message you've been told.
40:22
I have so many stories of And a lot of them are in, I can tell you in a, I can
40:27
think of one recently that was in more of a religious context where a wife who was
40:31
a fantastic athlete and the competition and the, it kept her driven and helped
40:38
her take care of herself and helped her exercise and helped her focus on her diet.
40:41
And she showed up better for her kids.
40:43
But then one of her religious leaders he just told her she is.
40:47
Being selfish.
40:48
She is not setting an example for her kids.
40:51
There's no curiosity there.
40:52
There's nothing but shame being projected onto her that you,
40:55
what you were doing is wrong.
40:57
And it almost destroyed this person self care is not selfish.
41:02
Self care helps you show up better.
41:03
It helps you be the very best version of yourself.
41:05
It helps you discover your own values.
41:08
And if you, if we go back to this religious setting, you're
41:11
God given talents and abilities.
41:13
So there's a parable of the talents.
41:14
Do not bury them when you're, using them, you discover more.
41:17
That's, that is a concept of the more I am choosing me and I'm interacting with
41:21
the world, the more I can learn about myself and the more I can bring to the
41:26
table in my relationships and my family.
41:28
But if I am just looking to fill everybody else's cup, I will
41:31
lose myself and over time that.
41:34
body keeps the score, the trauma response I will start to break down.
41:37
I will start to have chronic pain.
41:38
I will start to have migraines and back pain and fibromyalgia,
41:41
and I will have irritable bowel syndrome and I will be fatigued.
41:45
And that is your body telling you, in my opinion, that you can't keep
41:49
doing this, what you're doing.
41:51
And when people get out of bad relationships or when they start to
41:54
self advocate and raise their emotional baseline, do things that just bump
41:58
up their baseline, even just a little bit each day or every week, then
42:02
they feel better about themselves and they show up as a better human being.
42:04
And then it might be difficult because.
42:06
Typically that person is in a relationship and the reason why
42:09
they've been giving so much is because people are willing to take.
42:12
And that is unfortunate because then when that person who has been the giver
42:14
has needs and they show up and they express them, it isn't like everybody
42:18
in the family system says, Oh my gosh, now we get to be here for you.
42:23
No, now all of a sudden it threatens.
42:25
That they may not have somebody that's going to take their anxiety,
42:28
take their anger, take their frustration, show up and save them.
42:32
Then they push buttons to get that person back into that one down position.
42:36
That goes right back to this concept of pathological kindness.
42:39
Kindness is an amazing, wonderful thing.
42:41
I want those who, feel like kindness is a value.
42:44
Kindness is in their bones and their DNA.
42:46
That's an amazing thing.
42:47
Please do not try and take that out of you.
42:50
See where it has become pathological, where it has become
42:53
detrimental to your health.
42:54
And that's an area to work on.
42:56
That's an area to shore up some boundaries and boundaries are difficult because
42:59
when the pathologically kind person sets a boundary and again, not an ultimatum
43:04
If you are saying, I just need you guys to not do this anymore, they know now,
43:08
oh, that's an important button to push, whether it's conscious or subconscious,
43:11
to put you in that one down position again so I can continue to get my needs
43:14
met, boundary is, hey, if you guys are doing this, then I am going to withdraw,
43:19
then I am going to take care of myself.
43:21
It's a me thing and know again that boundaries will be pushed,
43:24
especially by the immature, especially by the narcissistic person.
43:28
And by nature, every little kid is a narcissist.
43:29
They are very self centered and egotistical.
43:32
So . They want their needs to be met in order for them to survive.
43:35
That's why when a kid cries at the store and they want the toy desperately,
43:39
then they amp up the volume more and more and they throw a fit and they
43:42
make you just feel so embarrassed that then what do you say at times?
43:46
Well, there goes my boundary.
43:47
Okay.
43:48
Just this one time.
43:50
And that makes me feel better because in my mind, I'm saying it really is just
43:53
this one time from this day forward.
43:55
He's not getting that toy to the kid though.
43:57
They got the toy mission accomplished.
43:59
Now I know I really got to amp things up if I want this toy.
44:02
So next time I'm prepared.
44:03
I know the drill boundaries are tough.
44:06
Boundaries are a me thing.
44:07
Boundaries are easier when you raise your emotional baseline,
44:10
when you take care of yourself.
44:11
, and one more note , what is difficult is when people show up and they start
44:15
talking about their new interests, their new hobbies, maybe their new friend.
44:19
, if you as the spouse feel immediately threatened, I understand, I hear
44:22
you, but that is a you thing.
44:24
Is it because you haven't taken the time to develop friendships,
44:27
the relationships to, to develop?
44:29
Have self care.
44:30
And if right now you're saying you don't understand, I can't, I don't
44:33
have a minute in my day, then the difficulty, the discomfort might
44:37
be me needing to ask for help.
44:40
And now here come the yeah, buts of, yeah, but I don't want to
44:42
bother anybody or yeah, but okay.
44:43
You know what?
44:44
It's not as big of a deal right now.
44:46
But if you're losing your sense of self, if you are feeling overwhelmed
44:49
and overstimulated and just feeling like all I'm doing is just
44:53
existing day by day, then get help.
44:57
See somebody because that is where your body is telling you,
45:00
craving for you to figure this out.
45:02
It wants to live.
45:04
The brain is a don't get killed device.
45:05
Think we have one more.
45:06
This was beautiful.
45:07
When Hannah was talking about as you change, and of course your spouse is
45:11
going to too, she said you get to find new reasons to stay married, to choose him.
45:15
And she said she knows, and it is a cliche, but it's a very good
45:19
one, because love is a choice.
45:21
It's an active choice.
45:22
It's something that you, in a good relationship, in a healthy
45:25
relationship, you're doing every day.
45:27
You're choosing you, and what do you need to do to make you the best version of you?
45:32
So that you can show up and choose your family, choose your spouse.
45:35
And that, that goes back into even the expectation effect.
45:40
What am I looking for in my spouse?
45:41
If I want to find all the little faults, no problem.
45:44
That one's pretty easy, actually.
45:46
If I want to look for the good and I want to be and I want to
45:49
choose this person on a daily basis, Then that is what I'm doing.
45:53
I've chosen me.
45:54
Now I'm making that choice to choose you.
45:56
And I didn't go all in today on talking about differentiation and the
45:59
four points of balance in the work of David Schnarch, which is amazing
46:03
. , and you can find other episodes where I've talked about it.
46:05
And I'm, I want to go through and just break down those four points of
46:09
balance again in a future episode, because they're so important because
46:12
part of that, me learning how to choose myself, the differentiation concept in
46:16
and of itself is I'm going to be in a relationship because I desire connection.
46:20
It's one of our most basic needs, but also another one of those needs is to
46:24
find myself, to develop autonomy and.
46:27
It sounds almost like a paradox, but I'm going to learn about myself
46:30
and who I am in this relationship through this relationship, but
46:34
it's not me needing that person to validate me or make me feel good.
46:39
But in my interactions with this person, I'll learn what are the
46:41
things I need to do to validate myself and to feel better about myself.
46:46
So that I can choose this person and they choose me.
46:49
And now we have these amazing experiences.
46:51
So we'll cover that on a future episode.
46:53
Thanks everybody.
46:54
This was a bit impromptu.
46:55
I highly recommend that you go find the Q and a files with Tricia, Dr. Jeff
46:59
and me, wherever you listen to podcasts.
47:02
I think there's about 50 episodes out at the time of this taping and look
47:05
for this episode with Hannah and Cody.
47:08
And if you want to go listen to it now, , it will make more sense.
47:12
And as always, if you have questions, marriage questions, individual questions,
47:17
parenting questions, please send them in.
47:19
And I will use, I will use those on future episodes.
47:22
And I just appreciate everybody who listens.
47:25
I'm grateful that you're here taking us out per usual.
47:27
It's a wonderful, the talented roar Florence with her song.
47:30
It's wonderful because it is have an amazing week and I will see you
47:33
next time on the virtual couch.