Latest / The Virtual Couch / Live Q&A with Tony and Sydney - Navigating Mental Health: Highly Sensitive People, Narcissism, Emotional Immaturity, ADHD, and “Good Therapy”

Transcript

Live Q&A with Tony and Sydney - Navigating Mental Health: Highly Sensitive People, Narcissism, Emotional Immaturity, ADHD, and “Good Therapy” · The Virtual Couch

• 0:00
  Hey, everybody, welcome to a very special bonus episode of The Virtual Couch.
• 0:02
  I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
• 0:06
  And my daughter, Sydney, and I, or my daughter, McKinley, and I often do live
• 0:11
  question and answers on, it's been TikTok until TikTok was taken down for a brief moment.
• 0:16
  Now it's back up, but we've also been doing them on Instagram or on YouTube.
• 0:21
  I would love to have each and every one of you join us on a live.
• 0:24
  But for those that can't, we do air the lives typically the following day on
• 0:30
  my Virtual Couch YouTube channel.
• 0:31
  The lives can be a lot of fun interacting with one or both of my daughters and
• 0:36
  with people that are on the lives and they are asking questions.
• 0:39
  So today I want to provide you with the audio of one of these lives.
• 0:43
  Again, if you want to see the video, you can go over to my Virtual Couch YouTube channel.
• 0:46
  And if you have questions you would like answered, please feel free to reach
• 0:50
  out to me at contact at tonyoverbay.com or go to my newly updated website,
• 0:55
  tonyoverbay.com, and you can submit your questions through the contact form on the website.
• 1:00
  Without any further delay, let me provide you with this audio recording of a
• 1:05
  live question and answer that
• 1:06
  my daughter Sydney and I did on TikTok Live just a couple of weeks ago.
• 1:12
  Music.
• 1:18
  Okay i need somebody to jump online so we can see
• 1:20
  if the microphone is working because i am not quite sure if
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  it is working yet or not so uh whoever's on here first i can't wait to uh can't
• 1:28
  wait to hear you tell me said i've gone live i don't know for sure if the microphone's
• 1:33
  working or not i i tested it yeah okay you can check it out see see if it is
• 1:38
  or not they are letting they are notifying. Okay. First person here.
• 1:43
  I'm saying hi. Tell me if you can hear me. Somebody give me a little bit of feedback.
• 1:47
  We're testing a new microphone and I just need to know if you can hear me. Anybody?
• 1:53
  Testing. One, two, three. Looking for the first. Yes. Thank you.
• 1:57
  Not a good name. Number three. We are live. My name is Tony.
• 2:01
  I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and I want all of your questions.
• 2:05
  I want your therapy related questions, although I will not be. is it
• 2:08
  good okay okay why do you act so surprised
• 2:11
  says producer sydney right off camera but i
• 2:14
  want your questions i want to talk tonight we're going to talk about attachment theory we're
• 2:17
  going to do a little bit of am i overreacting because there's some gold on reddit
• 2:21
  semi am i overreacting did i say am i reacting it's fair to react but am i overreacting
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  so we're going to check that out and then a lot of stuff on attachment theory
• 2:29
  it's today is the 12th so by now i am very curious this is a hack bit for us.
• 2:34
  Thank you, Little Nerd. Look at that heart on my head. I'm curious if anybody is still keeping...
• 2:38
  Their new year's resolutions. If anybody decided just not even to do new year's resolutions this year.
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  And I have very strong opinions on this as a practicing mental health professional
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  for over 20 years now, new year's resolutions.
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  Why do they only last a little while? And I think there's a lot of reasons.
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  And one of those is people set resolutions that they think that they are supposed to set.
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  Like they want to start running or they want to lose weight or they want to,
• 3:02
  I don't know. What are, have you done new year's resolutions before Sid, honestly?
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  Just this year, honestly. Okay.
• 3:09
  I'm painfully, painfully dirt sober, you guys. Okay. If you can hear Sydney.
• 3:14
  Oh, Nonchalant King is here. Okay. Yeah. I haven't done those in a while.
• 3:17
  Sydney said she is painfully, how did you put that? Painfully? Dirt sober. Dirt sober.
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  And I'm very proud of you. Like a newborn baby. Like a newborn baby.
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  Like just a newborn child.
• 3:27
  But she's very sober. And we will talk about that at some point. I can't wait.
• 3:30
  But so many people, though, set a New Year's resolution and it's something that
• 3:33
  they really don't want to do. And this fits into one of the things I think is
• 3:35
  so fascinating. It's the concept of a socially compliant goal.
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  It's something that you set a goal to do because you think that that is what you're supposed to do.
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  So a lot of people that I work with will say, I'm going to start running.
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  But if they hate running, then that would fit into this socially compliant goal.
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  Or it's something that I think I'm supposed to do. Or people think that I should do that.
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  Instead of, now, if you are living a life of socially compliant goals,
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  you're normal. You're human.
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  That's a good thing. but most likely you're not very motivated to stay on top
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  of those things because you don't really want to do them anyway.
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  Now, if you have a goal, if you set a goal of fitness, then you can do that any way you want.
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  I have had people that have used weighted hula hoops, have done belly dancing,
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  have done high intensity interval training, but they are not runners.
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  So you have to find the thing that really actually matters to you.
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  Seems pretty obvious, but for some reason it's not.
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  So when people set these new year's resolutions that are things they think they're
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  supposed to, then their motivation is weak and ineffective because it goes against
• 4:32
  their whole process of just becoming.
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  And now if you are setting a bunch of socially compliant goals,
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  now I want you to learn one of my next favorite words in therapy,
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  and that is experiential avoidance, which means that if I'm already not excited
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  about the thing that I think I'm supposed to do.
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  Then I'm going to find everything else to do other than that thing.
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  So experiential avoidance is things like playing on my phone,
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  playing games, watching videos on Netflix or on TikTok or any of those things,
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  because I'll do that for a minute and then I'll get to the thing that I actually don't want to do.
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  So if you want to have success in setting real goals, they have to be things
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  that actually matter to you. Any thoughts, Sid?
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  No, not yet. Not yet. Okay.
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  And then I'll just give you one other that I think is really interesting.
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  And this is one where let's say I've had clients before and I have one right
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  now that said he's going to read 10 books this year.
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  I think if we were like betting the over under, I'd say he gets through about
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  two books. That is a bit judgmental. I'll own that.
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  But one of the better ways to set a goal is to then say, okay, let's say he has a value.
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  You set your goal based off your value. So if he has a value of knowledge,
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  then books are the vehicle. So he is going to read to gain knowledge.
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  So in that scenario, then he might set a goal of reading daily.
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  Now, how long? I don't know. Totally up to him. But if he says,
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  I'm going to read 10 books and all of a sudden he hits August or September and
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  he's only on book two, what's he probably going to do? He's going to say, you know what?
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  Next year, January 1 of next year, I'll reset that goal of 10 books.
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  So it might go against the grain a little bit because people like to do these measurable goals.
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  And if that works for you, keep on doing it.
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  But if you are one who says, I'm going to do, I don't know, I'm going to do
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  100 push-ups a day and then by the end of the day, most every day,
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  you're at 25 or you haven't even done them, then most likely you're going to
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  kick that can down the road till tomorrow.
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  And then this is that deal where by Wednesday or Thursday of the week,
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  you'll say, you know what, I'm just not going to worry about it this weekend
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  and Monday, I'm on it on Monday.
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  Then Monday rolls around or then all of a sudden it's the middle of the month.
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  Then you're saying next month, next month. That's when I'm going to change my life.
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  And then you hit June, July at that point. You know what? Next year.
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  And so we're just really good at kicking that can down the road over and over
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  and over again. And pretty soon that is the pattern. That is the habit.
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  Okay. So I hope you're getting your questions in. Sid's going to tell me if
• 6:52
  there are any questions that we, and we can answer those. But right now.
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  Everybody like the live. Okay. Everyone like the live, please.
• 6:59
  If you're a good person thank you i know we're testing it
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  right now we're gonna see everyone's color we are see that's where i need you
• 7:05
  on here doing some nice just some vibe something like
• 7:07
  that you could curse them with a pox or something like
• 7:10
  that if they don't what did you say no that's probably passive aggressive
• 7:13
  that's actually straight aggressive is what i was being sounded like a very
• 7:17
  old man there's a lot of old man they're in the podcast so we have a podcast
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  coming out the next day or two on attachment theory and i noticed on there that
• 7:25
  at one point i was saying something like I don't give two cents about something
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  and I felt like I was in the 20s.
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  I guess we're literally in the 20s. When I say the 20s, I think of the 1920s, like 100 years ago.
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  Not that I was around then. I was not around in the 1920s. No, I was not.
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  Okay. I want to do a little warm up here while people are joining and then get
• 7:45
  your mental health related questions in. It can be around.
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  So, I do a lot of work around emotional immaturity, narcissistic traits and
• 7:51
  tendencies. I do a lot of couples work. I work with anxiety.
• 7:54
  I work with depression and we can answer any of your questions about any
• 7:58
  of those things what should i do if i think i have
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  adhd and have had it since i was a kid oh josh safe space safe space i am a
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  card carrying riddle intake and member of the adhd club and same with sydney
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  my daughter i got my diagnosis when i was 46 years old syd got yours at i don't
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  know a year or so ago yeah how old are you
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  I don't know. 22. 22. So, it is never too early, never too late to get a good old ADHD diagnosis.
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  One of the things that I would highly recommend is there's a book called ADHD
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  2.0. The authors are Hallowell and Rattay.
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  And I also refer to that as my Bible, my holy scriptures, because ADHD 2.0 is
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  just a game changer because it talks so much about the concepts around that
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  we talk about it with attention deficit, but really it's,
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  they want to rename it VAST, Variable Attention Stimulus trait because it's
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  this whole, I don't even like calling it a disorder, but it's, it's paradoxical.
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  So there are some things, if I like it, I am hyper-focused on it.
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  And if I don't, not really for me.
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  And it also introduces some of the concepts I love when we talk about ADHD,
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  that there are two, two timeframes that we get things done now and not now.
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  So I'll either do it right now, or I'm not going to do it now.
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  And so it doesn't get done until now I have to do it right now.
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  And, and I don't know if that resonates. I know that one, you would agree with that one.
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  Yeah. And there's just so many other things there. ADHD 2.0 talks about rejection sensitivity.
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  There's a concept called rejection sensitive dysphoria that's fascinating that
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  any of us that have ADHD have been told no in some form or fashion.
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  The belief is anywhere from 10 to 20,000 times more than the average person.
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  By the time there, I think it's 12 years old. And it isn't always just no,
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  but it could be not now, champ.
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  Hey, not now, bud. Hold on. Wait a minute. So, we're continually just getting
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  this message of, we're a lot. We're a lot to handle.
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  And so, not right now. And so, you start to develop this anticipatory rejection.
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  It's almost like, man, I know that I'm a lot. I know that this person's already
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  going to be annoyed with me. So, I'm going in anticipating rejection.
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  So, then if somebody does say, I don't think right now, we're like,
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  okay, no, I should never have said anything. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. It's my bad.
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  So, that rejection sensitivity is a big part of that.
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  And then also, this is a really fascinating one, is apparently most,
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  what do they call them now, neurotypical humans.
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  And I guess I'm now, have you heard the term neuro-spicy?
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  Oh, that's weird. It is. But I think that's what we are, I think. Okay, maybe you can be.
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  There's neurodivergent, which I think was one of those movies.
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  Anyway, I digress. That is what ADHD looks like to me.
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  Where was I going with that? There's another question whenever you're done with
• 10:32
  your thoughts. That might be a while.
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  No, okay. I will finish this one, though. it was about, oh, that those normal,
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  normal, I think I'm going to be normal.
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  The ones that don't have ADHD, when they're doing a task, they just do the task.
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  So, there's this little teeter-totter in our brain that is like about thinking,
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  doing, thinking, doing.
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  So, apparently when some people are doing things, they're not thinking about
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  everything else. Or when they're thinking about things, they don't need to be doing anything else.
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  But to the ADHD person, what a wonderful gift we have where that little teeter-totter has broken.
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  So now when we are doing something, we're probably thinking about things.
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  And if we think about something that seems a lot more cool than what we're doing,
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  then I think I'll go do that. And then when I'm doing that, I'll think about other things.
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  And that's why the book that spoke to me the most here, I'm talking about ADHD
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  2.0, but when my kids were little was If You Give a Mouse a Cookie,
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  one of the greatest books ever written, because it just talks about going from
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  one thing to the next, to the next, to the next.
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  And it is just absolutely fascinating. Okay, next question.
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  I did not know you were married. It's a dad joke.
• 11:37
  Is this your water that was on the ground? I don't know.
• 11:41
  I'm gonna drink it. Who else would it be? We're the only two people here. Okay. Is it open?
• 11:47
  Yeah, that's mine. Don't drink that. Okay. Wait, was it not open?
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  I don't know. This is important. Okay.
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  My husband of 40 years just served me with divorce papers with no warning. Wow. I'm in shock.
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  That really is. And so, all jokes aside, I'm a real practicing marriage and
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  family therapist, and I do a lot of work with couples.
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  And that concept happens often
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  where somebody is blindsided by someone telling them that they are done.
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  And unfortunately, see, and I know I don't know your situation,
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  and here's where I'm not giving legitimate marriage therapy,
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  but I would love it if he had the courage to then approach you and express the
• 12:28
  things that maybe he is not happy with in the relationship. You won't tell me why.
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  Okay. So that's now we're into the world of emotional immaturity. Yeah.
• 12:36
  So one of the most, it is one of the most difficult things here is,
• 12:39
  and, and this can be really, especially after 40 years of marriage,
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  but man, I would love it if you didn't have to beg somebody to love you or convince
• 12:47
  somebody to tell you the reasons, because that's a him issue.
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  And if we really start to dig into this concept of differentiation and what
• 12:54
  differentiation is, it's this battle that we have to build a connection with
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  somebody while maintaining our autonomy, our own sense of self.
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  And that is the dance that we go into in relationships. And so,
• 13:07
  it can be a very beautiful dance when people are trying to both become more emotionally mature.
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  But unfortunately, one of the fascinating things about being differentiated
• 13:16
  is you could do everything in your power to try and save a relationship,
• 13:20
  show up better in a relationship, but you can't do it for him.
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  And so, if he is just saying, you know what, I don't even want to deal with
• 13:28
  it, unfortunately, that's a him issue and it hurts and I can't even imagine
• 13:32
  what that would feel like.
• 13:33
  And oftentimes, and this is just advice, this is not marriage therapy because
• 13:38
  I would need so many more details for this.
• 13:41
  The more that you recognize you are okay, that you deserve an answer and that
• 13:46
  it's not a very mature thing that he's doing by not providing you with any information,
• 13:51
  then there isn't a lot that you can do with that.
• 13:53
  Because we talk about in the world of the emotionally immature,
• 13:56
  and I highly recommend go do a deep dive on my podcast, Waking Up to Narcissism,
• 14:00
  because on there, I give these five rules of interacting with an emotionally
• 14:03
  immature narcissistic person.
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  The first one is what I call raise your emotional baseline. And that's all about
• 14:08
  self-care, because if you're about to go through something pretty heavy,
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  you really need to be in a good space to be able to react as best as you can.
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  So self-care is not selfish and it doesn't have to, you don't have to go run
• 14:19
  a marathon or get a mani-pedi, although that's fine.
• 14:22
  But it's really starting to just know, dream, think, listen to podcasts,
• 14:26
  come on a therapist's live TikTok, read books, interact with or talk to friends
• 14:30
  that have been through this, but start to try to do everything you can to help yourself.
• 14:34
  The second point that I talk about is get your PhD in gaslighting.
• 14:37
  And all All that means is that know that you're not crazy if you're asking somebody,
• 14:43
  hey, I would really, I think it would be fair for me to understand more about
• 14:46
  why you're serving me with divorce papers after 40 years.
• 14:48
  And if he's like, you should know already.
• 14:51
  No, you shouldn't. That's, you're not a mind reader and he has to have the courage
• 14:55
  to really have these adult conversations.
• 14:57
  The third thing I talk about is getting out of unproductive conversations because
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  if you're trying to beg him to tell you, then he all of a sudden has power.
• 15:05
  And unfortunately, the immature love power.
• 15:08
  The fourth thing is learn to set boundaries and know the difference between
• 15:11
  a boundary and an ultimatum.
• 15:13
  An ultimatum is you better tell me a boundary is if you don't tell me,
• 15:17
  then I'm going to leave the conversation or I'm going to, I'm going to take
• 15:22
  a break right now because you don't want to be begging somebody to tell you
• 15:25
  because again, they take that one up position.
• 15:27
  They feel like they have the power, but here's why I did this whole thing.
• 15:30
  The fifth one is you will never be the one that will give him the aha moment
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  or the epiphany of, oh my gosh.
• 15:36
  Then he says, you're right. I must now tell you.
• 15:39
  I would hope that he would have already told you. So, the more that you try
• 15:44
  to beg it out of him, the more he sees what buttons he can push to get you to react.
• 15:49
  Because the immature just needs somebody else to react with.
• 15:52
  Oh, there's Kelly, right? Okay. Hey, Kelly.
• 15:55
  Needs somebody to react with in order to just know that they exist.
• 15:58
  So, I'll kind of leave it there, but feel free. Continue to ask questions tonight. Yeah.
• 16:03
  As someone who just got like halfway ghosted a little bit ago.
• 16:06
  You're talking about you? Yeah. Yes. Yes. No response is a response.
• 16:10
  And it's a very loud response.
• 16:14
  It's even louder than a response. It really is.
• 16:18
  And I think that's what can be difficult about having somebody that you just
• 16:23
  thought 40 years is a long time and you deserve communication.
• 16:27
  You deserve for him to try to express what his frustrations are.
• 16:32
  Now, I don't know you, and I'm just going to put this out there for the sake
• 16:35
  of content, if that makes any sense, that I will say that as a marriage therapist
• 16:39
  that I see probably 15 to 20 couples a week,
• 16:41
  sometimes when people do feel like they are completely blindsided,
• 16:45
  and I'm not saying this is in your situation, but when they feel completely
• 16:48
  blindsided and they come in for couples therapy, because I think that you absolutely,
• 16:53
  if you want to try to make things work, you need most likely a professional
• 16:57
  that's going to help you have a voice and help you really be able to express yourself.
• 17:01
  But I'll have couples in my office, somebody will say they're blindsided,
• 17:04
  and then they'll express why they're frustrated in their relationship.
• 17:07
  The other partner that's just now hearing this news will say,
• 17:10
  why didn't you ever tell me?
• 17:11
  And sometimes as the couple's therapist, I'll almost raise my hand and say,
• 17:14
  you know, I'll take that one.
• 17:15
  Most likely they maybe have tried to tell you in the past, but you've maybe
• 17:19
  just said, yeah, that's not real. That's really not what's happening here.
• 17:23
  So we do have to be able to sit with some discomfort and hear what our partner's going through.
• 17:27
  But when I go back to what it means to become differentiated is that is a them
• 17:31
  thing. they can offer me this suggestion of what they think is going wrong in the relationship.
• 17:36
  And hopefully it's my job to self-reflect, self-confront.
• 17:41
  Is do I feel like there's truth in what they're saying? Because if somebody's
• 17:45
  trying to tell me how I'm thinking or how I'm feeling, that is adorable.
• 17:48
  I do want to hear it, but ultimately I get to be the one that is in charge of
• 17:52
  how I'm thinking and how I'm feeling.
• 17:53
  But I want somebody else's feedback, but I have to be able to take that feedback
• 17:57
  in and then say, is there truth in that?
• 17:59
  And if so, okay, thank you. And I will do everything I can to work to become
• 18:04
  the best version of myself.
• 18:06
  Yeah. Next question. Yep. I've fallen in love with another woman and I'm currently
• 18:11
  married i'm very confused okay this is a it's did you say t i know what that means.
• 18:17
  Thank you first of all i'm taking the sweater off and i think i gotta turn the fan on are you hot,
• 18:22
  no oh well you can turn the fan on okay let me do that what was the question
• 18:25
  falling in love with another woman and i'm married i'm married and he's confused
• 18:30
  okay my wonderful producer daughter and assistant sydney will you please have
• 18:35
  the task to keep me on track because i want to go on a tiny tangent,
• 18:38
  but it's for a good reason with this.
• 18:40
  So, I will from time to time have a client that will come in and tell me what
• 18:44
  exactly what you just said and I'm grateful for that.
• 18:46
  Well, where they will say, I'm in a relationship and I'm falling for someone else.
• 18:51
  Because if you can acknowledge that, then what we would start to take a look
• 18:54
  at is what is it about that other person that you find exciting?
• 18:59
  And are you feeling seen? Are
• 19:00
  you feeling understood? Are you feeling like this person is desiring you?
• 19:03
  Because those are most likely things that you must not be having in your current
• 19:07
  marriage, your relationship.
• 19:09
  Back to it takes a lot of courage to be known, to have your needs be seen.
• 19:15
  Then what I try to help that person do is find a way to communicate that to their spouse.
• 19:20
  Now, it's a lot easier when you've
• 19:22
  got maybe a professional in the middle that's trying to help do that.
• 19:26
  And recently, I had a situation like this where it was a woman who had mentioned
• 19:29
  that she was feeling this way with someone that she worked with. And she told me that.
• 19:36
  And then we brought her husband in and said, okay, hey, before you just respond
• 19:41
  and say, well, fine, she can go be with them or anything like that.
• 19:44
  She's telling you this because she wants this kind of a relationship with you.
• 19:48
  And what we identified was that the emotional relationship that she was having
• 19:52
  with this other person, they just shared a lot of things back and forth throughout
• 19:55
  the day. And they had a lot of common interests.
• 19:58
  And so, this is a great example, and it's not the norm, but the husband then
• 20:03
  that came in, then he said, okay, that I can understand because that isn't,
• 20:07
  those aren't my strong suits.
• 20:08
  And so they're working very hard right now on having these shared experiences,
• 20:13
  trading texts throughout the day.
• 20:14
  If she feels this desire to share something with this other person,
• 20:17
  she's sharing it with her husband. And he knows that's a cue for him to be curious
• 20:22
  because when you're looking outside of the relationship, most likely it's for
• 20:25
  something that you are not getting in your own relationship.
• 20:28
  And I will tell you, it's a pretty normal part of being a couple that you get
• 20:32
  to a point in the relationship where you only talk about the things that are
• 20:36
  pretty easy to talk about.
• 20:37
  And we are so afraid of contention that we avoid any kind of tension whatsoever.
• 20:42
  So you need to learn how to sit with your own discomfort and then have these
• 20:46
  conversations that are pretty difficult because that's the only chance you're
• 20:49
  going to give your partner a chance to show up different.
• 20:51
  And you're showing up different now. Does that mean that they will say,
• 20:54
  oh my gosh, thank you so much for letting me know that you're thinking of leaving
• 20:57
  the relationship because of something that I'm not offering you?
• 21:00
  Probably not. That's where I think a good couples therapist comes into play.
• 21:03
  But I hope you can see the concept that I'm talking about here.
• 21:05
  What are you seeing in this other relationship?
• 21:07
  And do you want that? Do you want that in your current relationship?
• 21:11
  And if so, find a way to have the courage to express that.
• 21:14
  Okay. Okay. Do people with ADHD get over attached to their partner? Mm-hmm.
• 21:20
  Really? Okay. Well, here's why. Here's why. Say that like I haven't gotten over
• 21:24
  attached to every partner.
• 21:26
  So, okay. So, I'm going to make a couple of assumptions here.
• 21:29
  And that's actually, okay. Thank you, whoever just asked that question.
• 21:31
  Because that is, that leads a little bit into the podcast that's coming out
• 21:35
  probably tomorrow or Tuesday, they're talking about attachment styles,
• 21:38
  and you can change your attachment style.
• 21:40
  So, most people that have ADHD have more of an anxious attachment style,
• 21:45
  and that anxious attachment is,
• 21:47
  I am so afraid of abandonment that I will do whatever it takes to keep this
• 21:52
  person, and also, I'm so insecure or afraid this person will leave that I need
• 21:57
  to check every time I can. Is everything okay?
• 22:00
  Are we good? Like, hey, do you like me?
• 22:03
  Do you still like me? Because it's been like 10 minutes and you haven't expressed
• 22:06
  your desire for me yet. So, you must be getting tired of me.
• 22:09
  I must have done something wrong. And so, you continually go to your partner
• 22:12
  and seek reassurance. So, does that make sense?
• 22:16
  So, then you are going to show up a little bit more clingy, little, a lot more clingy.
• 22:20
  And this is why most relationship dynamics, I want to say, devolve into this
• 22:25
  anxious and avoidant pattern because they find each other.
• 22:28
  So, the more anxious somebody is and the more avoidant that person becomes and
• 22:32
  it becomes just this kind of push and pull in the relationship.
• 22:35
  What's really a challenge is that trying to work and help the person who is
• 22:40
  anxious, and I'm such an anxious, attached person,
• 22:44
  to learn how to sit with my own discomfort and learn how to validate myself
• 22:47
  that, okay, I am okay. I don't need to continually seek reassurance.
• 22:51
  But one of the most difficult things about that is, so I'm over here just being
• 22:54
  and doing. I'm good. But then the avoidant is still going to be okay.
• 22:59
  So it's not like that necessarily causes them to lean in more.
• 23:03
  And so that's where the work really begins.
• 23:05
  And it's hard because as the anxious, the more work that you do,
• 23:08
  then I like Josh. Sounds like it's safe to say I'm undiagnosed ADHD.
• 23:12
  So many of us do, Josh. It really is. Okay, now my ADHD train wants to just jump right there.
• 23:17
  And let's talk about ADHD medication because yeah, did I finish the last thought though?
• 23:21
  Yeah. Anxious attachment for the win.
• 23:24
  We'll get back to the anxious and avoidant because I've got a lot of things
• 23:27
  about attachment styles that we can get to. And we also said at the beginning,
• 23:30
  we're going to do it. Am I overreacting? Because there's a really good one there too.
• 23:32
  Also someone said, could you explain gaslighting? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, I can.
• 23:36
  So gaslighting is a, it's a psychological manipulation tactic.
• 23:41
  And it's basically somebody trying to convince you that your reality is untrue.
• 23:44
  And if you go back to the history of the word, I think it really helps you understand the concept.
• 23:49
  And it goes back to a movie, I think in 1938, 1941. I was just a child.
• 23:56
  Thank you for the laugh. I wasn't born yet at that point. But the movie, they had gas lamps.
• 24:03
  And so, then there was a guy, if I remember correctly, and he was trying to
• 24:06
  make his wife feel crazy.
• 24:08
  Every day, he would turn the gas light down a little bit more and a little bit
• 24:10
  more. And she would say, is it getting darker? And he's like,
• 24:13
  no, it's bright as day in here.
• 24:15
  So, that's the concept around it. And so, gaslighting is when you want to make somebody feel crazy.
• 24:21
  The most simple examples are, and I hear them often. I was going to say all
• 24:24
  the time, we're not going to do all or nothing statements, but where if I said,
• 24:28
  Hey, I'm going to stop on the way home and grab dinner.
• 24:29
  And then I just show up at home and my wife says, Hey, where's dinner?
• 24:32
  And I'm like, I don't know. Where is it?
• 24:34
  And she says, but you said you were going to stop and get dinner on the way
• 24:36
  home. And I'm like, no, I didn't.
• 24:37
  And she literally heard that. And that's why she didn't get anything ready because
• 24:41
  she was waiting for me to come home with dinner. And I'm saying,
• 24:43
  I didn't do it. That isn't me.
• 24:45
  And so you can see where there can be a little bit of a, almost like there can
• 24:48
  be a malicious version of that, where I need her to feel crazy.
• 24:51
  But gaslighting, and this is a big thing, gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism.
• 24:57
  So, those who gaslight just reflexively, impulsively, it's because when they
• 25:01
  were kids, they just knew they could not be in trouble.
• 25:04
  Because if they got in trouble, then they got in trouble. And they would fear
• 25:08
  that in essence, from a little kid brain, that they're going to get booted out of the household.
• 25:12
  So, if their parent said, who knocked over my drink?
• 25:16
  And none of the kids fess up to it, now we're in the world of gaslighting.
• 25:19
  Or the first one that they point at the little baby because he can't talk yet. He did it.
• 25:24
  And because they've learned, oh, okay, childhood defense mechanism.
• 25:26
  So now my parent gets mad at one of the other, my brother or sister, but I'm safe.
• 25:32
  Nobody's going to get mad at me. So you can see where then if that's been happening
• 25:36
  since you were a kid, then anytime.
• 25:39
  So even back to this example, if I really did say I'd stop and get dinner,
• 25:42
  but then all of a sudden I'd come home and I forgot, maybe because of ADHD,
• 25:46
  instead of me going, oh, my bad, I forgot. I can go back out and get it.
• 25:50
  Then if my wife is to say, why didn't you bring it home? What do I feel like?
• 25:53
  Oh, that feels like I'm in trouble. And if I go right back to my childhood,
• 25:56
  then I can't be in trouble or she'll boot me out of the house. So, I never said that.
• 26:00
  And so, people can just gaslight just so just reflexively, just impulsively
• 26:05
  to alleviate their own discomfort, to get them out of the discomfort.
• 26:09
  And it can be maddening because if you are the one that heard this,
• 26:13
  saw this or whatever that was, then you're going to think,
• 26:17
  okay, maybe I am crazy because I swear I saw, I swear I heard him say it,
• 26:21
  literally say it, but he seems so certain of himself that he didn't do that.
• 26:25
  So it's interesting. Yeah.
• 26:27
  Oh, Josh, can I repeat? Yeah. So I say that gaslighting, so gaslighting is a
• 26:32
  childhood defense mechanism.
• 26:34
  And so what happens is if a kid, and this gets deeper, this gets bigger into
• 26:39
  this because I think we're just now trying to figure out how to deal with our emotions.
• 26:44
  And as a parent, even a good parent will say to a kid, hey, don't worry about
• 26:49
  something, or it's not a big deal, or rub a little dirt in it,
• 26:51
  or pick yourself up, or it doesn't really hurt, to whatever it is.
• 26:55
  And so you're telling that kid your feelings and your emotions are not real.
• 27:00
  They're wrong. And so then what do we do? We end up going through life feeling
• 27:03
  like, okay, if I'm feeling an emotion, it must be wrong, because I'm used to
• 27:07
  it being wrong, and I need somebody else to tell me that I'm okay.
• 27:10
  And so when you start from that place, now you've got a kid that if they are,
• 27:14
  they don't feel safe saying, I knocked over your drink because they know that
• 27:19
  they have not been, it hasn't been modeled in their home that it's okay to make a mistake even.
• 27:24
  And it's okay to get, yeah, it's okay to get something wrong.
• 27:26
  It's okay to feel bad. It's okay to have done something that frustrates my parent
• 27:30
  because that's not been okay.
• 27:31
  So then the kid then is going to do whatever they can to avoid that discomfort.
• 27:36
  And so, that's where the pathological lying, compulsive lying,
• 27:40
  gaslighting comes into play.
• 27:41
  So, gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism that keeps the kid from getting in trouble.
• 27:46
  And if they're really good at it and they hold their ground,
• 27:48
  then eventually the parent just kind of moves on and then they got out of it
• 27:51
  and they didn't have to take ownership or accountability of something.
• 27:54
  So, one of the best things you can do as an adult is learn that by saying,
• 27:57
  my bad, or oh, I did do that, the world keeps on spinning and your relationship
• 28:02
  typically continues to evolve.
• 28:05
  And it's much better to take ownership of something and then learn that,
• 28:08
  okay, it's part of just being a human than to just, that wasn't me. I didn't do it.
• 28:13
  Or a lot of times we project things onto people too.
• 28:16
  So if, go back to this example of if I came home and I didn't pick up dinner
• 28:19
  and my wife thinks that she heard me say it, well, let's say that then I say,
• 28:22
  I didn't say that. And then she's like, you really did.
• 28:24
  Or maybe she would even say, I actually happen to have it recorded here.
• 28:28
  I don't know, the smart speaker recorded it. And then I hear it.
• 28:30
  And then I say, well, I just thought you were going to remind me on the way
• 28:33
  home. So, I still don't want to
• 28:34
  take ownership of it. I'm still going to project it off to somebody else.
• 28:37
  And that's very, very emotionally immature.
• 28:41
  What does ADHD medicine actually do to our minds? Yeah, it's really, do you know?
• 28:47
  Saves my life. Saves my life, I know. It's a game changer. In the book,
• 28:50
  ADHD 2.0, it talks about how the medication is, it's one of the most effective
• 28:55
  medications for a mental health disorder that is out there.
• 29:00
  So you've got anxiety and depression meds that do operate with a higher efficiency than placebo.
• 29:07
  But then you've got an ADHD medication that when given to somebody that has
• 29:10
  ADHD, it can be up to 80% of people find a pretty immediate relief.
• 29:14
  ADHD medications, and I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm a marriage and family therapist.
• 29:18
  So, I'm just saying about my experience that I've had and just from studying
• 29:21
  the ADHD medications, that they are not addictive. That's one of the, for the most part.
• 29:26
  And I want to say that that's been my experience in most of the people that I work with.
• 29:29
  And they don't have to build up in your system. You don't have to take them for weeks at a time.
• 29:33
  I really haven't taken anything. I haven't taken one dose today,
• 29:37
  but you don't have to take them all the time and they're out of your system
• 29:40
  within a few hours, depending on if you're taking like an extended release or an immediate release.
• 29:44
  But we, we lack dopamine.
• 29:48
  And so we're constantly seeking a dopamine dump, a bump of dopamine,
• 29:53
  which is why we do impulsive things.
• 29:55
  Why we do, yeah, very impulsive, just very in the moment things.
• 29:59
  And so it causes like addiction too, right?
• 30:02
  Yeah. Let me pull that up. Yeah. Yeah. So
• 30:05
  we get our dopamine through a lot of addictive things as
• 30:08
  well whether it's food or i don't want to
• 30:11
  get like shadow band tree or you
• 30:14
  can say the s-e-g-g-s s-e-g-g-s i
• 30:18
  can say that one right segs yeah because
• 30:23
  a lot of people that yeah adhd comes with a pretty high
• 30:26
  incident of addiction and i'm going to find something from the
• 30:29
  adhd 2.0 book that talks about this because i think it's very worth
• 30:32
  talking about i'm going to turn to the medication section okay
• 30:36
  yeah please josh said i asked
• 30:39
  because i'm a little afraid that adhd medication will alter
• 30:43
  my personality i heard that all the time i did
• 30:45
  too that i don't think that's true at all i think maybe that's for like maybe
• 30:50
  if you're misdiagnosed i don't know maybe it's everyone's different but i really
• 30:53
  did not experience that for me it like made my personality like whole again
• 30:58
  and i felt more confident and i felt like I could say what I wanted to say and like.
• 31:03
  I don't know. I just didn't have that experience personally. So, and let me, let me,
• 31:07
  I think there's a good point here too, Josh, where when I was working with people
• 31:11
  that were, that were getting their own ADHD diagnosis as adults and they were
• 31:15
  starting to take medication and I was watching them change.
• 31:19
  Then I call them the yeah, buts.
• 31:21
  So, whenever we're going to do something new, your brain is,
• 31:24
  your brain is a don't get killed device and it just wants to continue to do
• 31:27
  the things that it knows are safe, even if those are not things that are going
• 31:30
  to cause you to thrive as a human being.
• 31:31
  So, when you think about doing something new that could change your life for
• 31:35
  the better, your brain is going to say, yeah, but maybe it won't.
• 31:38
  Yeah, but maybe something else will happen.
• 31:40
  And so those yeah, buts are what kind of keeps us stuck where we are because
• 31:44
  your brain, it does seek certainty.
• 31:46
  So when I talk about that too, oh yeah, and real nerd also tricky because if
• 31:50
  you have the right medication and the right dose, it's great.
• 31:52
  And sometimes people do have to experiment around with dosage and medication.
• 31:56
  But when I was looking at taking ADHD medication for the first time,
• 32:01
  and I laugh about this so much. I've never had political ambitions in my life,
• 32:04
  but I found one of the first yeah buts was, yeah, but what if I ever run for
• 32:08
  office and they have to look at my medical records?
• 32:10
  And I just thought, okay, I don't want to run for office.
• 32:13
  And I don't know if that would even matter if they saw Ritalin on my medical
• 32:17
  records. People who run for office have done worse, let me tell you.
• 32:21
  That's right. But I just think it's interesting to look at the yeah buts.
• 32:23
  Yeah but, and you'll hear, yeah but I'll be addicted forever.
• 32:26
  Yeah but, I don't want to take these things forever.
• 32:28
  And this might be a good time for me to just, so I have a theory.
• 32:31
  I call it the emotional baseline theory, and I won't maybe get into all of that
• 32:35
  right now, but let me just say that I really think that when people are feeling
• 32:40
  down, their baseline of emotions are low.
• 32:42
  They have a hard time reaching the tools they need for success,
• 32:46
  whether it's they have a hard time meditating or then when they feel so down,
• 32:49
  they don't want to go to therapy or they don't want to try anything new.
• 32:51
  And so, you have to bump that emotional baseline up to get to a point where
• 32:55
  you can reach the tools that you need. And a lot of times I'm working with people that.
• 32:59
  They think they know what they need, but they just can't access those tools.
• 33:03
  And so, I think medication can really help bump a baseline up,
• 33:07
  whether it is an antidepressant or an anti-anxiety medication or an ADHD medication.
• 33:11
  And then once you raise that emotional baseline to a level where now you are
• 33:14
  starting to function more like yourself, now you can access the tools.
• 33:19
  Now, maybe I'm going to stay a little more focused. I'm going to finish studying
• 33:22
  or books that I need for class. Or I'm going to, for me, I started getting my podcast out.
• 33:27
  I updated a website. I finished a book. I did all these things once.
• 33:30
  And so then at that point, I remember telling myself, all right,
• 33:33
  then my baseline is going to be high. And if I want to, then I can get off the medication.
• 33:36
  But now I know what those tools look like. But then when you're there at that
• 33:40
  point, then I just said Ritalin for life, which would be a really good screen name, right?
• 33:45
  I'm sure it's already taken. But at that point, then I, why would I get off
• 33:49
  the medication when it's literally changed my life?
• 33:51
  So I love what you're saying, Josh, about, I think one of the yeah,
• 33:54
  buts, that's the long winded way for me to get there.
• 33:56
  One of the yeah, buts is going to be yeah, but it might change my personality.
• 34:00
  It might, but it might change your personality in a good way.
• 34:04
  And didn't you say that when you took your medication at first,
• 34:09
  didn't you clean your room?
• 34:11
  This is a great story. Tell that because your room was a little bit of a...
• 34:16
  Don't say words that would get us cesspool cesspool. Okay.
• 34:20
  And then you were medicated. And what happened? I just, I always just thought
• 34:23
  that I was like horrifically messy.
• 34:25
  Like I just, I thought that that was just who I was. Yeah.
• 34:28
  And then once I started taking medications, I've been so like cleanly ever since then.
• 34:33
  And then it's so nice and I love it. And it is like a part of me.
• 34:38
  And it's just like, I was never able to even know what it felt like to access
• 34:41
  that without the medication.
• 34:43
  Yeah. And so, yeah, I like what you said. If you're scared, it's going to alter
• 34:46
  your personality. You can always stop.
• 34:48
  And for me, even just doing like having the medication for like a week.
• 34:54
  Yeah. And then stopping it for a little bit.
• 34:57
  Just like you said, just being able to feel what it's like to have a brain basically
• 35:02
  helped me when I was off the medication, too. Yeah.
• 35:06
  I don't really know how, but it just really did. It just it changed a lot because
• 35:10
  before the medication, I just again, And I just did not even know what I was
• 35:15
  missing out on at all. Like, you don't know what you don't know. Right.
• 35:20
  Hey, well said. Yeah. Hey, Cooper Ferguson is here and it says,
• 35:24
  invite Coop Ferg to join live as a guest.
• 35:25
  We've never hit that except for the one time early on where we had those people
• 35:29
  from a different place. Cooper, I might hit invite and you're a guest.
• 35:33
  Okay. Are there other questions or keep those ADHD questions coming?
• 35:36
  Yeah. What doctor do I go to for this ADHD thing?
• 35:40
  Yeah. Yeah, these days, and this is like always a fun time to run through what the various things are.
• 35:44
  So you've got me, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist,
• 35:46
  LMFT, or you might hear like a LCSW, licensed clinical social worker,
• 35:50
  or LPCC, licensed professional clinical counselor, and we can't prescribe medication now.
• 35:56
  And we had to get a master's degree and get about 3000 hours of practice,
• 36:00
  so to speak, before getting our license.
• 36:02
  Next up, you've got a clinical psychologist. They went and got their master's
• 36:05
  and then their PhD in psychology, and they can administer psychological tests
• 36:09
  for the court, things like that.
• 36:10
  They also can't prescribe medication. So you actually have to go to a psychiatrist.
• 36:15
  And a psychiatrist is somebody that went to medical school, they did the rounds,
• 36:18
  they delivered babies, they did all those sort of things, but then they settled
• 36:20
  on a specialty of mental health.
• 36:23
  And especially these days, the controlled substances like a stimulant,
• 36:27
  like an ADHD medication, most likely are going to need to be prescribed by a psychiatrist.
• 36:33
  Now, depending on your insurance, your doctor, I've had some clients that have
• 36:37
  been able to get an ADHD medication from their general practitioner.
• 36:40
  And so you need to just go start the ball rolling. For me personally,
• 36:44
  I had to go have an assessment with another therapist and then I saw a doctor
• 36:47
  and then I took a assessment test and then I saw a psychiatrist and it was a
• 36:51
  lot of work, but then boy, was it worth it. Yeah.
• 36:54
  I'm on ADHD medication, but do you have tips for emotional regulation?
• 36:58
  Yeah. Okay. I like that question a lot. And because this is what's really good
• 37:01
  for that is that the medication.
• 37:04
  So what it does is that, yeah, it gives you that dopamine that you need to be
• 37:08
  able to maintain a focus, but you still need to have, I think it's really good.
• 37:13
  Really important to have still a purpose or things that you need to do now that
• 37:18
  you have your, you know, you've got your opportunity to stay focused on something.
• 37:23
  Because I will know, I will notice that when I take medication and then I come
• 37:27
  into my office and if I have to write, I'm working on a new book project that's due this summer.
• 37:32
  If I have a deadline, I need to get a chapter done. I really need to point toward that.
• 37:36
  Or if I'm going to record a podcast, I really need to be able to take that medication,
• 37:40
  have everything lined up and then really just be in that moment in the zone
• 37:44
  and record my podcast because you can easily.
• 37:47
  You have your medication kick in and watch an incredible hour of YouTube videos,
• 37:52
  or I really play online bingo so well when my medication kicks in.
• 37:57
  And so when you do the things that maybe don't cause you to feel still good
• 38:01
  as doing the things that you would like to be doing in your life,
• 38:04
  I think that can cause, it can cause a little bit of emotional dysregulation
• 38:07
  at times because then we beat ourselves up for not taking advantage of the fact
• 38:11
  that now we have this medication, this diagnosis.
• 38:14
  And then I also, and I don't know if maybe you were talking about this as well,
• 38:17
  but I think that one of those concepts that can be tough too is that there is a bit of a letdown.
• 38:22
  Some people call it like the Adderall crash when the medication wears off because
• 38:27
  there's a few things that'll happen.
• 38:29
  Most ADHD stimulants are appetite suppressants as well.
• 38:32
  So, your appetite may come back with veracity and then you may also find yourself pretty fatigued.
• 38:37
  And so, that can start to feel like a pretty up and down roller coaster.
• 38:41
  But I think once you are aware of it and you accept that fact,
• 38:44
  then you can eat little meals throughout the day so you don't have that big crash.
• 38:47
  Or you can make sure that you are not taking a dose anywhere close to night.
• 38:51
  And so then by the time you hit the evening, then you accept the fact that it has been an amazing day.
• 38:57
  And now you allow yourself to just relax and connect with friends and meditate
• 39:00
  and all those wonderful things.
• 39:02
  Is this why caffeine really gets me locked in and I get stuff done?
• 39:06
  I don't take bets. So, it's a good question, and I would recommend doing a little
• 39:10
  AI, a little chat GPT with this, but the caffeine hits a different area of the brain.
• 39:15
  Caffeine really does this thing. It blocks the, I think it's called adenosine,
• 39:19
  but there's a part, these little things that are heading toward your brain saying sleep.
• 39:23
  And so, caffeine goes in there and runs a little hijack.
• 39:26
  And so, you may be able to get more things done because you aren't as sleepy.
• 39:29
  And a lot of times people that have more success with caffeine,
• 39:33
  it's maybe they are people that have a little bit more direction or purpose.
• 39:37
  And so, a lot of times somebody that truly, and here's what's fascinating.
• 39:40
  So, somebody that really has ADHD, we also lack executive functioning skills
• 39:43
  and you can't just try harder.
• 39:45
  And so, it's not just a matter of, hey, I'm getting sleepy or tired or I just
• 39:49
  didn't finish something.
• 39:51
  It's the fact that your thoughts are bouncing around like a ping pong ball all over the place.
• 39:55
  And so you're going to do this until you do this until you
• 39:58
  do this and so then when you have enough dopamine
• 40:01
  in your brain now you can hyper focus and lock in on a project and
• 40:04
  actually finish it but that's why i say it still has to be a project that you like so
• 40:07
  caffeine didn't really help me much i
• 40:10
  enjoyed caffeine because i think that the adhd brain
• 40:13
  is running on overdrive all the time and so
• 40:16
  then when you finally do stop i don't know if you fall asleep no
• 40:19
  you don't i literally stayed up till 6 a.m
• 40:22
  last night i know right i had to come in and check on sid because i was like hey
• 40:24
  i went and looked just to make sure and i thought you were like twitching your
• 40:27
  leg oh no i thought you were just lying right there i was just gonna let you
• 40:30
  have that oh no i really no but so for me personally then
• 40:33
  oh and yeah arlen's saying great question i saw that one scroll
• 40:35
  by there real quick did you see the one about said about a non-stimulants
• 40:39
  um i did not okay so
• 40:42
  there are non-stimulant medications and and this is a great this is something
• 40:46
  you and i were talking about whether and you didn't even know that we were talking
• 40:49
  about this the other day it's the thing where I was telling you that it's interesting
• 40:53
  because I've realized I like the feeling when the medication kicks in because
• 40:58
  to me, and I say this often, it feels like hope.
• 41:01
  To me, it doesn't feel like anxiety. And there's a belief that if you don't
• 41:05
  really have ADHD and you take a stimulant medication, then it will cause more anxiety.
• 41:10
  Now you will be able to stay up all night. You might be able to complete a project.
• 41:13
  That's why they're study drugs that when people
• 41:16
  are taking them off off label but if
• 41:19
  you have adhd then it just it provides you
• 41:22
  it does when it kicks in it's let's do this let's go
• 41:25
  but it's not okay i'm wired now i gotta go i will say
• 41:28
  though yeah you also have anxiety yeah i also have anxiety it can it's like
• 41:33
  it can increase your anxiety i totally can so i just don't want people to think
• 41:37
  oh i'm getting anxiety that means i don't have adhd because i very much know
• 41:40
  that i have a good point well okay can i like speak to that too for a second
• 41:43
  is that I think one of the other things that's really important is.
• 41:47
  And there's a book, it's by Daniel Amen, who's an amazing psychiatrist in the
• 41:52
  Amen Clinic, and he's done a lot of brain scans.
• 41:54
  He's got amazing TED Talk about what he's learned after 100,000 brain scans.
• 41:58
  But I cannot think of the name of his book, but there's one and it talks,
• 42:02
  he goes through all the things that you need to do to set yourself up for success
• 42:05
  with ADHD. And a lot of those are diet related.
• 42:07
  Are people eating enough? Are they staying hydrated enough? Are they getting
• 42:11
  the rest that they need. Because if you get those things, you know? Totally.
• 42:14
  A lot of times it's when I'm not drinking enough water or I haven't eaten enough.
• 42:19
  Yeah, there's another question. Okay. Well, I think that do we answer that one?
• 42:22
  Okay, there are non stimulant drugs.
• 42:24
  Oh, and I think we're just to finish that off. What has been fascinating to
• 42:27
  me is if I'm being completely honest with myself, there, I, I don't know if
• 42:32
  I would, I don't want to say I would want a non stimulant drug because I was
• 42:36
  alluding to the fact that I like that, that feeling of hope.
• 42:39
  But if I was going to accomplish things regardless, and I didn't have to feel
• 42:43
  that I didn't need to feel that feeling of hope, I could see where a non-stimulant
• 42:46
  medication for ADHD would be incredible because it's doing what it needs to do.
• 42:49
  It's giving yourself the neurochemicals that you need, the neurotransmitters
• 42:53
  that you need, but you just aren't feeling the jolt or the hope.
• 42:58
  And so there are, and I do recommend those. I have had no experience with those
• 43:01
  myself. I might want to look up on that one. For real? Yeah.
• 43:05
  I just don't like it. Sometimes my medication makes my heart beat. Okay.
• 43:10
  Because Because I have anxiety, my anxiety attaches to that.
• 43:13
  Yes, yeah. So I could maybe see, I could see how that could be helpful.
• 43:16
  And I wonder though, what would be fascinating is if you were able to get,
• 43:19
  I remember one of your sisters had a psychiatrist one time that said that I
• 43:24
  won't even really prescribe or talk to you about anything until you get,
• 43:27
  I think she said like 10 hours, 10 days in a row of eight hours of sleep.
• 43:31
  That doesn't happen. I know, but I thought that was, I liked that.
• 43:34
  I thought it was really, I thought it was like, I thought it was like really good advice though,
• 43:38
  because I will, I don't sleep a lot but I know that when
• 43:41
  there have been weekends or the three-day weekends where I
• 43:44
  have slept all three days there are times where I've really
• 43:46
  noticed that I do feel a lot more kind of
• 43:49
  present without my medication so I do think that's fascinating
• 43:52
  yeah what are good ways to increase your window of tolerance mine has become
• 43:56
  a peephole oh that's a window of tolerance by the way great name for an alternative
• 44:01
  band okay like actually that's hard yeah when you go see a window of tolerance
• 44:06
  no but i can see you going to see them okay what is that i can see your mom going to see them.
• 44:12
  Cause that's my wife. Cause she'd be going with me. So I did there.
• 44:16
  Anyway, the window of tolerance is a, so I have so many thoughts about this.
• 44:19
  I would love to know more. And I don't know if you're still here.
• 44:22
  Oh, the name of the book was ADHD 2.0 by Hallowell and Rattay.
• 44:26
  But if the person who asked that question, I just, yeah, the therapist at me
• 44:30
  just, I want to know more because the window of tolerance, a lot of times it's
• 44:34
  when people are starting to feel unseen, unheard in their relationship.
• 44:37
  So their tolerance, there's the concept of trauma almost the body keeps the
• 44:41
  score. So, if you are starting to get very annoyed with the people around you
• 44:44
  or in your relationship, then rather than beat yourself up or,
• 44:49
  you know, what's wrong with me, sometimes that's your body that's trying to tell you something.
• 44:52
  So, it might be trying to say, look, you are not being heard or understood here.
• 44:56
  Or you're doing the majority of the work in your home and not getting any validation
• 44:59
  for it. There's no reciprocity for it.
• 45:02
  So, that tolerance might be shrinking because your body is saying,
• 45:05
  this is not fair. You need to speak up about it.
• 45:07
  You need to do something about it.
• 45:08
  Or you might be in a job where you are feeling like, okay, I want more.
• 45:12
  I want more out of life. I want more from this job.
• 45:14
  And so first look at that window of tolerance as your body keeping the score
• 45:18
  of it trying to tell you something.
• 45:20
  And we want you to start really first listen and key into your gut feeling or
• 45:26
  your instinct, your visceral reaction.
• 45:27
  And first take a look at that with curiosity.
• 45:30
  Ooh, check that out. My tolerance is decreasing.
• 45:32
  That is interesting. So now what are the situations that are going on around
• 45:35
  me? because if you were coming in to see me in therapy, then my first thing
• 45:39
  would be, well, tell me about your week.
• 45:41
  And people so often say, I don't know, everything's fine. And then you're like,
• 45:45
  well, tell me more. Tell me about your job. Tell me about your interactions with your friends.
• 45:48
  And you'll start to hear this just slow residue of lived experience that's building up to frustration.
• 45:54
  And all of a sudden there's, oh, okay. So, that's why my tolerance of what's
• 45:58
  window of tolerance has shrunk because I don't feel good about myself and the
• 46:02
  relationship I'm in, the job I'm in, yeah, so do you see where I'm going with that?
• 46:07
  So that'd be my first guess. Yeah. Thoughts on TMS therapy? Oh,
• 46:13
  I don't know enough about it.
• 46:14
  Transmagnetic stimulation. I think that's what it is. And this is interesting. This is a fun fact.
• 46:19
  The things that never happened right before COVID hit, I met with a group and
• 46:25
  I've got an office in Arizona. I've got an office in Northern California.
• 46:28
  And I met with a group in Northern California. And it was a guy I really liked.
• 46:31
  And he was talking about a TMS center coming into the area that we lived at
• 46:35
  the time. And what was really funny was because of the, I've got a couple of
• 46:40
  podcasts, they were doing well. I knew this guy fairly well.
• 46:43
  He asked me if I wanted to come run the clinic, the TMS clinic. I thought that is crazy.
• 46:48
  But then I did go and I looked at what the TMS technology was and it was pretty fascinating.
• 46:53
  So it's where, and I'm not, I do not, I can be completely wrong about this,
• 46:56
  but my understanding is that you're targeting an area of the brain and you're
• 47:00
  using magnets to try to hit an area of the brain and basically rewrite the little neuropathways.
• 47:06
  So it's a way to get a little bit of a fresh start, kind of like the psychedelic
• 47:09
  assisted therapy movement, whether it's the ketamine assisted therapy,
• 47:13
  or we're looking at psilocybin now, these things all hit the default mode network
• 47:16
  of the brain, which is think of it like a new coat of powder over a ski slope.
• 47:20
  So you're trying to have a new way to access different areas of your brain.
• 47:24
  And so I don't know enough about TMS, but it sounds pretty fascinating.
• 47:28
  So it's another way to try to get this fresh start in a
• 47:31
  sense are there different meds for ADD for ADD
• 47:34
  no great question though so ADD is no longer
• 47:36
  a thing because that's what I well I think I've got the H in there too a while
• 47:40
  ago ADD was just rolled into ADHD so ADHD but it's called inattentive type so
• 47:47
  same medications but great question yeah recently diagnosed with DPDR disorder
• 47:53
  any tips to help stay grounded?
• 47:56
  Back in my more... I don't know. I'd say back in my more immature days,
• 48:00
  I would Google it and I would pretend I know what it is, but let's Google it. Yeah, DPDR.
• 48:05
  D-P-D-R. Okay. Shall we race? What is D-P-D-R? And I'll tell you if I know.
• 48:09
  Oh, derealization disorder. I don't know enough about this one.
• 48:13
  And again, depersonalization is one that I'm, it's funny, on the way over here
• 48:18
  tonight, I thought about if we got questions about disassociation or depersonalization,
• 48:21
  because that is being talked about more and more.
• 48:24
  And I know a little bit more about that concept of disassociation.
• 48:27
  A lot of times that happens with trauma, where if somebody is going through
• 48:30
  an experience, especially in childhood, that they.
• 48:33
  Don't want to be there, they shouldn't be there, it's like unfortunate that
• 48:37
  they're in that situation, that they'll learn to disassociate and almost see
• 48:40
  themselves in that situation as a way to try to deal with it.
• 48:44
  And that's the little bit I know of that. So, I don't know anything about DPDR,
• 48:49
  but it says a mental health condition characterized by persistent or recurrent
• 48:52
  feelings of detachment from oneself and or the environment.
• 48:56
  So, I hope that, and it even says causes, the exact cause of DPDR is unknown,
• 49:01
  but it's thought to be related to factors such as oh here we go trauma or
• 49:04
  stressful events anxiety or depression substance use or certain medical
• 49:07
  conditions and it says treatment typically involves psychotherapy
• 49:10
  and medication may also be used to manage symptoms
• 49:13
  of anxiety or depression here's where i will throw let me when i say soapbox
• 49:17
  i know i say this all the time do you know what that means nope okay i said
• 49:21
  let me get on my soapbox here and that just means let me say something i feel
• 49:24
  very passionate about for a moment and that is that there in the study stuff
• 49:28
  i'm reading online right now it talks about psychotherapy,
• 49:31
  such as cognitive behavioral therapy, which is called CBT.
• 49:34
  Now, I'm going to go on my big CBT versus acceptance and commitment therapy,
• 49:38
  informational speech. I was going to say rant, but that sounds very dramatic.
• 49:43
  Most every therapist starts out as a cognitive behavioral therapy therapist, a CBT therapist.
• 49:48
  I was a CBT therapist for seven or eight years. And what CBT starts with is
• 49:52
  your thoughts lead to your emotions and your emotions lead to your behaviors. Right?
• 49:56
  Inherent in that is you have automatic negative thoughts or stinking thinking.
• 49:59
  And so, you need to change your thought to give you a different emotion and
• 50:03
  that different emotion will lead to a different behavior.
• 50:05
  And I will tell you, it works at times.
• 50:08
  And especially if somebody doesn't have any tools in their mental health toolkit
• 50:12
  and they don't even want to be around.
• 50:16
  Then telling them that's a pretty automatic negative thought and what are some
• 50:20
  other thoughts that might replace that thought that maybe other people will
• 50:24
  miss you or maybe you haven't just found your calling in life,
• 50:27
  or that might make the person feel a little bit better.
• 50:30
  Their emotion will change, and then it might lead to a different behavior of
• 50:33
  them investing in their mental health.
• 50:35
  The reason I bring that up is because I have thought about this with things
• 50:38
  like disassociation, where, so I'm an acceptance and commitment therapy now, a clinician.
• 50:44
  So I moved from CBT about 10 or 12 years ago to ACT, acceptance and commitment
• 50:49
  therapy. And I highly recommend any of you look this up.
• 50:52
  There's so many books on ACT now. One that we're reading at the house right
• 50:56
  now is it's called The Happiness Trap and it's by an author named Russ Harris.
• 50:59
  It's a great intro book to ACT.
• 51:01
  But ACT starts with the point of saying that you, person listening right now,
• 51:06
  you're the only version of you that has ever walked on the face of the earth.
• 51:09
  So you are a unique blend of your nature and your nurture and your birth order
• 51:13
  and your DNA and your abandonment, your rejection, your hopes,
• 51:15
  your fears, your dreams, everything.
• 51:17
  That's what makes you you. So
• 51:18
  who on earth has the right to be able to say that your thought is wrong?
• 51:24
  Or that you are having automatic negative thoughts. No, no. In the world of
• 51:27
  acceptance and commitment therapy, you are just having thoughts and you're having
• 51:30
  feelings because you are.
• 51:31
  Because you are the only version of you. And it is a great place to start.
• 51:35
  Because instead of the what's wrong with me, nothing is wrong with me.
• 51:38
  It's more of a check this out. I'm noticing that I am feeling more of a dissociative state.
• 51:44
  Check that out. Because then I can, what that allows you to do is step back
• 51:48
  and take a look at yourself in the context of that moment.
• 51:51
  So in this moment, this is how I'm feeling. this is what I'm thinking now I
• 51:54
  can look at that with curiosity I can take a look at all the things that are
• 51:57
  going on around with in my life.
• 51:59
  And this is why it can be so difficult when somebody says things like,
• 52:03
  no, I've been there as well. I know exactly what you're going through.
• 52:05
  It sounds helpful. It sounds very sympathetic.
• 52:09
  But in reality, how does that feel for anybody? When somebody says,
• 52:13
  I know exactly what you're going through. This is what happened to me.
• 52:16
  Well, no, actually, you don't know what exactly happened to me.
• 52:18
  But now I will tell you, oh, wow, boy, it sounds like you do.
• 52:22
  And now that person feels good. See, I'm glad we had this talk.
• 52:24
  And you still feel unseen or unheard.
• 52:27
  So act just starts from this place of that okay you are
• 52:30
  feeling and thinking what you are feeling and thinking because you are and
• 52:33
  so check that out and now let's start to look at what do i want to do with
• 52:36
  that so anyway okay josh said
• 52:39
  yeah so josh i'm glad you're here tonight so i
• 52:43
  believe he said i like this guy oh okay good
• 52:46
  all right there we go he said so i believe i
• 52:49
  can sense my mom's intentions but she denies
• 52:52
  what i claim her intentions are and there's no
• 52:55
  hard evidence so i can't convince her how do I convince
• 52:57
  her you cannot but you convince yourself or
• 53:00
  you understand yourself now you can try to bring awareness to that to
• 53:03
  her and this is man there's so many good things we can
• 53:06
  talk about here Josh one of those is it sounds like you're wondering
• 53:09
  about the ADHD vibe and that is that sensitivity the same sensitivity that causes
• 53:13
  us to have a little bit more rejection fear of rejection also we're reading
• 53:18
  the room and so almost on that line of people that feel like they are empaths
• 53:22
  or the adhd brain is constantly scanning for okay,
• 53:26
  because i'm looking for dopamine and i'm fearing rejection and i'm
• 53:29
  doing this all the time so i i do have a good read on people and and that can
• 53:34
  be a thing but what's really fascinating is it's little to no one enjoys being
• 53:38
  told what they're thinking or feeling or what their intentions are even if you're
• 53:42
  right and that's a concept called oh my gosh i talk about it all the time it is called.
• 53:48
  Oh no okay what is
• 53:51
  the thing when somebody's telling you how you
• 53:54
  think or feel i say this all the time it is this like a me
• 53:57
  of them no no no wait i'm gonna lose my
• 53:59
  mind it's okay the first original studies were done in a courtroom setting
• 54:02
  when people said the judge would say almost the judge would say okay strike
• 54:08
  that evidence from the record and then what would happen was the people in the
• 54:12
  jury would be like oh that evidence must be important so then even attorney
• 54:16
  sometimes would say something just so it could get struck from the record and it is called,
• 54:20
  holy cow fired okay i have done i've done multiple podcasts about this it's
• 54:26
  the instant negative reaction of being told what to do it is called.
• 54:32
  Okay i will wake up this morning and i will be screaming it in my brain wait
• 54:36
  now i feel like i know you do know you do okay you have to you and i say it
• 54:40
  all the time and i keep wanting to say But okay, or the instant negative reaction
• 54:44
  of being told what to do. It's why thought suppression doesn't work.
• 54:46
  Right now, don't think of a white polar bear riding a pink bike,
• 54:50
  swinging a green fish around a set. Psychological reactions.
• 54:52
  Thank you, psychological reactions. I didn't look it up.
• 54:54
  Okay, it just popped up in your mind. So psychological reactions.
• 54:57
  So this is where you have a good read, Josh.
• 55:00
  I have a good feeling about you and you're picking up on the vibe and you kind
• 55:03
  of think, I caught my mom, she's being immature and I know what she's thinking.
• 55:06
  Now, in reality, you really don't, but I would put my money on Josh.
• 55:10
  But then when you say, hey, I think this is what you meant.
• 55:13
  Now I'm basically saying, hey, don't think about that white polar bear.
• 55:16
  Cause now she's like, I'm not thinking that. And you're like,
• 55:18
  really, really you're not.
• 55:20
  And she's like, no, I'm not. So at some point, this is where that concept earlier
• 55:23
  of being differentiated of this is a me thing and that's a her thing.
• 55:26
  So for me, I feel pretty confident that I read that one, right?
• 55:30
  Is she going to give me the gift of telling me that I got it right? No, no, she's not.
• 55:34
  As a matter of fact, she'll probably double down on, as a matter of fact,
• 55:35
  I've never even thought that. And this is the fascinating thing about.
• 55:41
  Psychological reactants. I was speaking about this to a group a little while
• 55:44
  ago, and I gave an example of, let's just say that my dad would,
• 55:49
  let's say he's telling me that, you know, son, you really need to have a budget.
• 55:52
  I do. I really need to have a budget. I'm not saying I do. And I have one.
• 55:56
  I need to budget. I've heard about these things. I'm 55 now.
• 56:00
  I, and I still not a big budgeter, but just because he's telling me that's what you need to do.
• 56:04
  My immaturity in my brain might go as far as to even say, I've read studies
• 56:09
  that say that people that have budgets don't live as long.
• 56:12
  That's not real. Maybe it is. I don't know. You can probably find a study that
• 56:14
  says that if you wanted to, but in reality, that's just, I'm saying that because
• 56:17
  of my immaturity, because I don't want somebody telling me what to do.
• 56:20
  And so one of the best things we can do, this is, goes back to that.
• 56:23
  I need to have a solid, but flexible sense of self, meaning that I'm good.
• 56:28
  I think I know what's going on here, but I'm open that I could be wrong.
• 56:31
  That's fair enough okay is bipolar disorder where you suppress your emotions
• 56:36
  but make lists of how people have wronged you and then go off not really i have
• 56:42
  a heart and i feel bad wait we're at an hour so i have to put the puzzle piece
• 56:46
  together look at that puzzle all right no but look at it's like cows,
• 56:50
  who picks that did i get it right yep okay we're back bye wait read that one
• 56:56
  again Is bipolar disorder...
• 56:58
  Or that's BPD, right?
• 57:00
  BPD? Oh, BPD could be borderline personality disorder. That's a whole different ballgame.
• 57:06
  Oh wait okay so wait wait what is the difference oh
• 57:09
  they're big well i know but like what is the difference of the letters oh
• 57:12
  bipolar i don't i don't know same yeah bpd
• 57:15
  though what's the question now it probably fits bpd what is bpd where you suppress
• 57:20
  your emotions but make lists of how people have wronged you and then go off
• 57:24
  that would fit more into bpd yeah bpd is it's in this this personality disorder
• 57:28
  cluster the same with like narcissism and histrionic personality disorder, but yeah.
• 57:34
  And borderline is just think of this. So I don't have one here in my Arizona
• 57:38
  office, but in California, you always keep a little paperback. Most therapists do.
• 57:42
  And it's, it's the Bible of the borderline. It's called, I hate you. Don't leave me.
• 57:45
  And so borderline has intense, intense fluctuating emotions and they shift rapidly. I hate you.
• 57:52
  Don't leave me. I hate you. Don't leave me. A difficulty controlling anger.
• 57:56
  Somebody with borderline can be very impulsive. They have a real fear of abandonment,
• 58:00
  like an intense fear of abandonment and a need for a relationship to make them feel better.
• 58:04
  Because what's fascinating about that personality disorder cluster is all of
• 58:07
  those things, histrionic personality disorder, narcissism, borderline.
• 58:11
  It's really all about a lack of a sense of self. So, I need somebody else to
• 58:15
  interact with in order to just know that I even exist.
• 58:17
  But unfortunately, I'm very immature in the way I interact with that person.
• 58:21
  So, I need to control them in order to feel like they will not leave me instead
• 58:25
  of allowing them to just be.
• 58:28
  And that's the goal of trying to become more emotionally mature in your relationship
• 58:32
  is learning that I need to be okay as I am.
• 58:34
  And this is so cliched, but it is so true that if I do not love myself,
• 58:39
  then I cannot fully love somebody else.
• 58:41
  Because if I don't love myself, then I'm trying to figure out a way to get that person to love me.
• 58:45
  And that's typically where we go into the world of control.
• 58:48
  And unfortunately, that is a very, very immature and damaging way to maintain
• 58:52
  a relationship. because you can have love or control in an adult relationship, not both.
• 58:57
  And it's really scary when you just go down the path of, I'm going to love that
• 59:01
  person because I can't control them. So, they may not love me back.
• 59:05
  They may even want to leave a relationship and that is their right. And that is scary.
• 59:10
  But when you are whole and you are showing up and you are loving someone else,
• 59:14
  now we can have these shared experiences and we're two whole people that are
• 59:18
  coming together, two differentiated interdependent individuals that come together
• 59:21
  and have these shared experiences. And that makes life incredible.
• 59:24
  Not the anxious, though, what do they think? Are they going to leave me? Do they like me?
• 59:28
  What if they find out what I'm thinking? That's a really unfortunate way to
• 59:32
  be in a relationship, but it is how most relationships are.
• 59:35
  So it takes a lot of courage to become more emotionally mature and trust and
• 59:40
  allow your partner to just be.
• 59:41
  And you're choosing them and you've chosen yourself as well. I could go on and on.
• 59:46
  Okay. Okay. My friend manipulates me and everyone with her mental health. I'm so tired of it.
• 59:52
  She's been in therapy forever, and the lady just agrees with everything she says.
• 59:57
  Is there such thing as too much therapy?
• 1:00:00
  There can be. Do you think there is? Well, it depends. Or is it just the wrong
• 1:00:04
  therapy? It's the wrong type of therapy, yeah.
• 1:00:06
  No, yeah, you're really, it's such a great question. Thank you, person.
• 1:00:10
  And also, I really apologize for what you're going through with that.
• 1:00:14
  Because as a mental health professional, I know when there are certain people
• 1:00:18
  that they love nothing more than to talk a lot about their therapist and their
• 1:00:23
  therapist said this, and you should go to therapy.
• 1:00:25
  And so then their friends start to just get tired of hearing about therapy.
• 1:00:28
  Because in reality, that that is that person still needing external validation.
• 1:00:33
  They need other people to know that they're struggling or they're working on
• 1:00:37
  their mental health or they're going to therapy.
• 1:00:38
  But in reality, the more emotionally mature you become, you know,
• 1:00:42
  you're going to therapy and you know, you're working on your mental health.
• 1:00:45
  And so then that's a you thing. And so all the interactions you have with others is your muse.
• 1:00:50
  It's your chance to understand why do I feel so insecure? Why do I need that external validation?
• 1:00:56
  And hopefully you're bringing that into therapy and that's the work that you're doing.
• 1:01:00
  But I, and this is, I'm going to sound really judgmental, but I can do it now
• 1:01:04
  because I'm like an old man and I've been a therapist for 20 years or so.
• 1:01:08
  Because in the beginning, even the therapist doesn't know what they don't know.
• 1:01:11
  And they just want the person to feel good about themselves. Because why?
• 1:01:14
  Because that makes the therapist feel pretty good about themselves too.
• 1:01:17
  And you don't even realize for a long time as a therapist that your job is not
• 1:01:22
  to feel better about yourself in the therapy process.
• 1:01:26
  Your job is to try to help that person get
• 1:01:29
  to this place where they can self-confront and they can grow and
• 1:01:32
  they can recognize that they don't know what they don't know
• 1:01:35
  and so they're bringing things into therapy and at some point this shift it
• 1:01:38
  happens in therapy where they now are coming in with it and i like this vibe
• 1:01:43
  of where it's almost like we're just sitting here beside each other and they're
• 1:01:46
  saying okay here's my experience what do you think versus tell me what to do
• 1:01:49
  and then because what happens is when somebody's coming in and they're saying
• 1:01:53
  well what do you think I should do.
• 1:01:54
  They really don't want to know what you think that they should do.
• 1:01:57
  Because you will say, well, I think this, oh no, I've already tried that.
• 1:02:00
  Or, well, that doesn't work. Or you don't understand how bad it is for me.
• 1:02:03
  And so, that person is going to therapy.
• 1:02:05
  And this is why I was saying earlier that I guess maybe too much is not the
• 1:02:08
  right way to put it. But some people go to therapy just to get validation.
• 1:02:11
  And I personally, and again, this is why I say I'm an old man,
• 1:02:14
  been doing therapy for a long time.
• 1:02:16
  I just have a different, I can't, that isn't really what I'm interested in anymore
• 1:02:19
  is just validating someone over and over and over again.
• 1:02:22
  So, it's For me, I really like working with people that are,
• 1:02:26
  and most of the people now at this point, I'm picking off a wait list.
• 1:02:28
  They listen to a bunch of my podcasts. They're familiar with the way that I do therapy.
• 1:02:32
  And so, they're saying, okay, everything is a me thing. That's one of the best things you can do.
• 1:02:37
  When that person says this, I got upset. That's a me thing. Why did I get upset
• 1:02:41
  about what this person said?
• 1:02:43
  Or from a parenting standpoint, if my kid is embarrassing me,
• 1:02:46
  that's a me issue. Why am I embarrassed? Because they're just being a kid.
• 1:02:50
  So, then those are the things I like when people bring that in.
• 1:02:52
  They're saying, check this out. I got frustrated when my spouse didn't say this thing to me.
• 1:02:57
  And so then why did I get frustrated? Okay, because I want a mutually reciprocal
• 1:03:01
  relationship or is it because I guess I'm realizing I don't express my needs
• 1:03:06
  in the relationship because now we'll work on, well, how do I do that?
• 1:03:09
  But if somebody's just coming in and saying, everybody's mean to me and all
• 1:03:11
  this sort of thing, and then I'm just saying, well, what if there's this or
• 1:03:14
  have you looked at this? And they're like, oh no, you don't understand.
• 1:03:16
  They're really mean to me.
• 1:03:17
  At some point then, and I guess I'll end with this part and then we can do more questions.
• 1:03:21
  I'm not saying like I'll end the night, although we're, yeah,
• 1:03:23
  we're over an hour. We should cut off questions soon.
• 1:03:26
  Let's cut off questions. Okay. And then we'll do a speed run because I do have
• 1:03:29
  to. Because there are still a lot. Are there? We'll still get to.
• 1:03:31
  Well, not like a ton. Okay.
• 1:03:33
  Well, yeah. So, let's do a speed run through the questions.
• 1:03:37
  But where was I going with that? Validation. So often people,
• 1:03:40
  they do, they think they want like a real connection or intimacy in the relationship.
• 1:03:45
  But really what they're looking for is validation. And this is what you see
• 1:03:48
  as a therapist. If I'm just walking around the world and somebody knows I'm
• 1:03:51
  a therapist, they'll say, wait, can I ask you a question?
• 1:03:53
  What would you do if, and I know, I already know how this game's played.
• 1:03:56
  They just want validation they want me to say oh i would do
• 1:03:59
  exactly what you're doing and then they get to walk around and say i talked to
• 1:04:02
  a therapist they said i was right too versus yeah so
• 1:04:04
  it's really fascinating okay other questions i was telling josh that we'll end
• 1:04:08
  with his question okay let me go back to it's gonna be back by the way do you
• 1:04:13
  know that tiktok is in the supreme court right now no yeah it supposedly is
• 1:04:18
  going to be done by the 19th or it will continue forever Okay.
• 1:04:22
  Yeah. Follow us on Instagram. FirstShoeWorld.com.
• 1:04:25
  Okay. I'm a big fan.
• 1:04:28
  To sorry riddle nerd we love you do you
• 1:04:31
  know anything about ocd but ruminating thoughts
• 1:04:35
  that lead to anxiety attacks yeah yeah so we're
• 1:04:37
  talking about like ocd of thought and right is that maybe what you're
• 1:04:40
  thinking did i just ask that question oh no sorry i thought you were saying
• 1:04:43
  oh no i was gonna say like that one's that one is it's really rough i'm saying
• 1:04:47
  bless your heart that one can be difficult because the rumination is it can
• 1:04:51
  just eat somebody alive because they're just going to overthink and overthink
• 1:04:53
  and when you have ocd of thought think about the way ocd works is that there's
• 1:04:57
  an obsession which causes an anxiety.
• 1:05:00
  And then how do you alleviate that anxiety? It's through the compulsion.
• 1:05:03
  And so, when it's something like hand washing, somebody might have some real
• 1:05:07
  fear of germs, getting sick.
• 1:05:08
  They might have an origin story of watching somebody close to them pass away
• 1:05:12
  from sepsis in the hospital.
• 1:05:14
  So, now all of a sudden, that gives them a lot of anxiety. And so,
• 1:05:17
  then they got to wash their hands a lot. So, you can start to work with that.
• 1:05:20
  Now, OCD of thought can be difficult because the way that you alleviate the
• 1:05:24
  discomfort or the obsession, the compulsion oftentimes is what's like checking
• 1:05:29
  with others. Do you think I'm right? Do you think I'm okay?
• 1:05:31
  Or just needing reassurance. And so, that can be a lot in a relationship.
• 1:05:36
  But I would really highly recommend trying to find a specialist that works with OCD.
• 1:05:43
  And I've actually reached out to, there's a Dr.
• 1:05:45
  Michael Tuhig who I've had on my podcast before, and he's
• 1:05:48
  one of the most world-renowned researchers for
• 1:05:52
  acceptance and commitment therapy and ocd and i
• 1:05:55
  know he has a online course that i was promoting last year
• 1:05:57
  at this time i might have to go dig that up email me anybody
• 1:06:00
  can email me questions by the way if you're here and we don't get to
• 1:06:03
  your question tonight email me at tony at tony overbay.com and and i will try
• 1:06:08
  to answer your question on a future live or on a we'll do a video on it or something
• 1:06:12
  like that and we're going to get better about being pretty regular about coming
• 1:06:15
  back here too and we'll let you know well ahead of time yeah and kelly thanks
• 1:06:18
  for liking the life i think i might have I have OCD. Yeah.
• 1:06:21
  You've had, yeah. Yeah. For me, what really helped was definitely acceptance.
• 1:06:26
  And then also...
• 1:06:28
  Dang it. The thing happened where I forgot everything. Okay.
• 1:06:31
  Keep talking. I'll be back. Okay. Cut me off when you do. Okay. Yeah. But acceptance.
• 1:06:36
  I love 101 Music's back. Is the office haunted? I don't think this office is
• 1:06:40
  haunted. We're in Mesa. Although when... Yes, it's haunted.
• 1:06:44
  Who knocked on the door? Oh, wait. I forgot you heard the door knocking. Yeah.
• 1:06:48
  Yeah. 101 Music, I think it is. But it's an adorable ghost. I don't know. Okay.
• 1:06:54
  OCD. Dang it. What was I going to say? This never takes a blow.
• 1:06:58
  Okay, here's one other thing. I'll keep talking and you'll remember. It helped me.
• 1:07:01
  Yeah, it really helped me to have a more acceptance that the thoughts are going
• 1:07:06
  to come. They still come every day for me.
• 1:07:08
  But for me, I really, really had to create a solid sense of self.
• 1:07:13
  And I had to really know who I am and know that I am okay. Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:20
  And that really helped me. Because now when the thoughts come,
• 1:07:24
  they're going to come. but they don't have any control over me because for once,
• 1:07:29
  I actually know that I'm okay.
• 1:07:31
  That's good. And like growing up, I never knew like that I was okay.
• 1:07:34
  You know, like I always was like
• 1:07:36
  seeking for everyone else's validation instead of giving it to myself.
• 1:07:40
  And so those thoughts, like I thought that they were there to aid me.
• 1:07:44
  Like I thought that if I kept having these anxious thoughts that there was going
• 1:07:49
  to be one last thought where I got my answer.
• 1:07:51
  But like the truth is there's no answer that's just bogus in your head.
• 1:07:55
  And like, once you know you're okay, like, I promise that will really help.
• 1:08:00
  I don't really know how to do that. Like, how did I do it? Like,
• 1:08:02
  that's like a whole process, right? Of like, emotional growth and stuff. But...
• 1:08:07
  That really helped me. Hey, okay, can I do, can I say this? I guess I'm going to, anyway.
• 1:08:11
  We've got a project coming up that I think will deal with things like that.
• 1:08:15
  We're, and we'll tell you so much more about this coming up,
• 1:08:18
  but it's going to be where we're going to do what will really look like real
• 1:08:22
  therapy. Because I like when you say, I don't know how to do that.
• 1:08:25
  And we're going to, we're working on a project that we'll make available to everybody.
• 1:08:28
  It'll be live, but where we'll go through what that looks like in therapy.
• 1:08:31
  And we're going to stay with a conversation like that. Remember,
• 1:08:34
  until you really understand what I'm wanting to try to convey as the therapist,
• 1:08:38
  and I'm really going to sit there and try to understand the difficulties in
• 1:08:41
  trying to make that happen.
• 1:08:42
  Because that acceptance is a big piece. Acceptance does not mean apathy.
• 1:08:47
  It doesn't mean I'm just giving up.
• 1:08:48
  Acceptance means to take in without defense in its entirety.
• 1:08:52
  I'm accepting the fact that I'm having this thought.
• 1:08:54
  And it goes back to the acceptance and commitment therapy piece I talked about
• 1:08:57
  earlier, where I'm not broken, I'm human. and I'm going through life for the
• 1:09:01
  very first time as me in this situation because of all the things I bring to
• 1:09:04
  the table, this is what I'm thinking. Check that out. Make room for it.
• 1:09:08
  And then what Sid talked about that is so important is from that back to that
• 1:09:12
  concept of becoming differentiated means that I know I'm okay and I don't need
• 1:09:17
  somebody else to tell me I'm okay.
• 1:09:18
  That is that need for external validation. Now, we all start out needing external validation.
• 1:09:22
  That's how we were raised as kids. We didn't know if we were doing life okay.
• 1:09:27
  And so, we needed a parent to tell us that it was okay. Now,
• 1:09:30
  the unfortunate part is we typically just were experiencing life for the first
• 1:09:34
  time and then being told we were doing it wrong.
• 1:09:36
  Hey, bud, we don't do that. We don't say that. Tuck your shirt in. Sit up.
• 1:09:40
  And so, then we were feeling like, okay, I'm just walking around being a kid
• 1:09:43
  and apparently I'm not very good at it because I'm told that this is not the
• 1:09:47
  way that we do it. This is the way I'm doing it.
• 1:09:49
  So, then over time, kids stop externalizing their emotions and they internalize
• 1:09:53
  them And then because they feel like, okay, what I'm doing or what I'm thinking
• 1:09:56
  or what I'm feeling is wrong.
• 1:09:57
  And so now I need somebody else to tell me what to think, how to feel, what to do.
• 1:10:02
  And so then part of your maturation process is starting to learn that you are
• 1:10:07
  actually in charge of your own ship.
• 1:10:09
  And you are thinking and feeling things because you are, and that's okay.
• 1:10:14
  And if other people have a problem with that, that is a them issue, bless their hearts.
• 1:10:18
  And at that point, then if you are okay with it, then you're going to be able
• 1:10:22
  to say to them, well, tell me more about what that is that you don't like about
• 1:10:25
  me, because I'm good with myself. And I think it goes back to what Sid's talking
• 1:10:29
  about, is that we need to have that same relationship with our own thoughts.
• 1:10:33
  If our thoughts are saying, well, I don't know, I think that person's mad at
• 1:10:35
  me. Well, I need to realize that that's a them issue. Like I'm okay.
• 1:10:39
  And if they're mad at me, then I can't, maybe I can check in.
• 1:10:42
  Hey, did I do anything to upset you?
• 1:10:44
  But I'm not doing it from a place of, because I need to feel better about myself,
• 1:10:47
  but it's because I genuinely care because I'm okay.
• 1:10:50
  Or that person needs to have the courage to express that to me.
• 1:10:54
  And if not, now we're back to the world of emotional immaturity.
• 1:10:57
  Back to you. So much for a speed round.
• 1:11:00
  Okay. I, yeah. I feel like I can feel other people's feelings.
• 1:11:05
  Is there a condition that That would be a symptom.
• 1:11:07
  I think that's just empathy, right? Yeah, it's good too. It's a,
• 1:11:10
  so I would recommend go to a highly, look up highly sensitive person.
• 1:11:14
  And there's a website called hsponline.com. And this is a, it's fancier name
• 1:11:20
  is sensory processing sensitivity and highly sensitive people.
• 1:11:24
  It's a really fascinating concept. I know that I am not necessarily HSP online. Let me do this.
• 1:11:30
  I know that that is not me, but I know that I think there's a couple. Yeah, I think you do too.
• 1:11:35
  Here, let me read this. There's a, oh, it's hsperson.com, hsperson.com,
• 1:11:41
  the highly sensitive person says, is this you?
• 1:11:42
  Are you easily overwhelmed by such things as bright lights, strong smells, coarse fabrics?
• 1:11:47
  Do you get rattled when you have a lot to do in a short amount of time?
• 1:11:49
  Do you make it a point of avoiding violent movies and TV shows?
• 1:11:52
  Do you need to withdraw during busy days into bed or darken room or some other
• 1:11:55
  place where you can have privacy and a relief from the situation?
• 1:11:57
  Do you make it a high priority to arrange your life to avoid upsetting or overwhelming situations?
• 1:12:01
  Do you notice or enjoy delicate or fine scents, tastes, sounds,
• 1:12:04
  works of art? Do you have a rich and complex inner world?
• 1:12:07
  When you were a child, did your parents or teachers often see you as sensitive or shy?
• 1:12:11
  And the woman who discovered this first is a lady named Elaine Aron.
• 1:12:15
  This was back in the early 90s. But this is what I think is really interesting.
• 1:12:18
  She says, if you have a lot of those traits, then you are highly sensitive.
• 1:12:22
  And she said, your trait is normal. It's found in 15 to 20% of the population,
• 1:12:26
  which makes it too many to be a disorder, but not enough to be well understood.
• 1:12:30
  And are you following this so far? Like, this is kind of crazy,
• 1:12:33
  right? This is the cool part. It's innate.
• 1:12:35
  Which means they say that biologists have found HSP in over a hundred species,
• 1:12:39
  from fruit flies to birds to fish to dogs, cats, and horses.
• 1:12:43
  And this trait reflects a certain type of survival strategy of being observant before acting.
• 1:12:48
  And here's the key, is that the brains of highly sensitive persons actually
• 1:12:51
  work a little different.
• 1:12:52
  And if you go to HS Person Online, the paragraph I'm reading right now has a link to research.
• 1:12:58
  And one of the beliefs is that if you had this role in the family where you were more observant,
• 1:13:04
  you were trying to read the room. And so, there's a belief that you develop
• 1:13:07
  these heightened mirror neurons. So, you really are more aware.
• 1:13:10
  You might feel like you're more hypervigilant.
• 1:13:12
  Maybe you're driving down the road and you just get a vibe that that car is
• 1:13:15
  about to move over into your lane.
• 1:13:17
  Like, you can just sense things. And so, that's that highly sensitive person vibe.
• 1:13:21
  Now, like I think earlier, we were talking about this with Josh where he feels
• 1:13:25
  like he has an idea of maybe what his mom's saying or feeling.
• 1:13:29
  And so, the thing that can be a little of a challenge here is that you are probably
• 1:13:33
  having some big feelings around a lot of things.
• 1:13:36
  Maybe read the room well, you might read somebody's, you might meet somebody
• 1:13:40
  and you're like, I don't like the vibe there.
• 1:13:42
  And so, I will say, trust your instinct, go with your gut on that,
• 1:13:45
  but just know that every now and again, that might not be as accurate of a read
• 1:13:49
  as you would like, but I would rather have you default to trusting yourself
• 1:13:52
  than not. Oh, and this is, okay, one more thing about this too.
• 1:13:55
  So, it says you're more aware, a couple more things, You're more aware of others',
• 1:14:00
  subtleties. This is because your brain processes information and reflects on it more deeply.
• 1:14:03
  And so they said, even if you wear glasses, for example, you see more than others by noticing more.
• 1:14:07
  But it also says you get more easily overwhelmed because if you're noticing
• 1:14:11
  everything, you're naturally going to be overstimulated when things are too
• 1:14:13
  intense, complex, chaotic, or novel for a long time.
• 1:14:17
  And then I love the fact that this researcher, Eileen Aaron,
• 1:14:20
  says the trait is not a new discovery, but it's misunderstood.
• 1:14:23
  So because HSPs prefer to look before entering new situations,
• 1:14:27
  they're often called shy. but shyness is learned. It's not innate.
• 1:14:30
  In fact, 30% of HSPs are extroverts, although the trait is often mislabeled as introversion.
• 1:14:35
  And then it says the sensitivity is valued differently in different cultures.
• 1:14:40
  And I love this concept. In cultures where it's valued or where it's not valued,
• 1:14:44
  like I think in our culture, HSPs tend to have lower self-esteem because they're
• 1:14:49
  often told, don't worry about it. It's not a big deal.
• 1:14:52
  Get over it. But they can't not worry about it or they are
• 1:14:55
  thinking about it and but when you and they're often told don't be so sensitive
• 1:14:59
  but when you put this in a and unfortunately it's a lot of third world countries
• 1:15:02
  where somebody this is viewed as a gift and then the person who has hsp is often
• 1:15:07
  the shaman or the matchmaker because right because you're gonna see two people
• 1:15:11
  and you're like yes or you're gonna see two and you're like no,
• 1:15:15
  oh let's have it so i think that i think i have this yes yes you do.
• 1:15:21
  What I think earlier in my life, it caused me to be a really,
• 1:15:26
  really bad people pleaser because I always felt like I could feel I could feel
• 1:15:31
  everyone around me's emotions, like you said, and it hurt me.
• 1:15:35
  It like, yeah, it felt like I had to do something about it.
• 1:15:38
  I have to fix this because it's not only making you feel that way.
• 1:15:42
  Now I feel this way too. And it's causing me to try to manage everybody else's emotions.
• 1:15:46
  Yes. But again, I feel like that's just where you have to have a really strong sense of self.
• 1:15:50
  And like it is like it can be like a gift and like a really beautiful thing
• 1:15:54
  as long as you don't let it control you.
• 1:15:56
  Absolutely. And what I like what you're saying, Sid, is this is where my friend
• 1:15:59
  Ross Rosenberg wrote a book called The Human Magnet Syndrome.
• 1:16:01
  Because so often the highly sensitive person finds himself with the narcissistic
• 1:16:05
  person or the incredibly emotionally immature person.
• 1:16:08
  And they form this human magnet. And sometimes it can almost feel breakup resistant
• 1:16:11
  because the highly sensitive person is going to continually try to take care
• 1:16:17
  of or manage the emotions of the narcissistic or emotionally immature person.
• 1:16:21
  So they're going to diffuse their anger, their discomfort into the relationship.
• 1:16:26
  And the highly sensitive person will say, okay, well, I'll take blame. I'll take ownership.
• 1:16:30
  I'll continue to work on things. And that can be really tough.
• 1:16:33
  And I call it the pathologically kind is what I call it often.
• 1:16:36
  And if you know what the concept around pathology, it means that you are kind to your detriment.
• 1:16:42
  So kindness in itself is an amazing thing, but when it's taken advantage of,
• 1:16:46
  then it can, it can actually hurt you.
• 1:16:49
  And so I will often have people that are coming out of these emotionally abusive,
• 1:16:52
  narcissistic relationships, and then they'll say things like,
• 1:16:55
  I need to just change my whole personality.
• 1:16:57
  And I just say, no, you need to like really lean into your personality,
• 1:17:02
  your character, but then learn how to set boundaries or really.
• 1:17:05
  Keep yourself out of these relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic people.
• 1:17:09
  Oh, wait, what Lindsay, what is
• 1:17:11
  it? Lindsay Ben says, and then we learn to stand up and we're the bad guy.
• 1:17:14
  That is so spot on right there. Because what happens is when you have been playing
• 1:17:18
  a role, when you've been playing a role in the relationship,
• 1:17:21
  like I'm always the one that's going to take it. I'm always the one that's going to try to fix it.
• 1:17:24
  And then you all of a sudden don't, and you stand up for yourself,
• 1:17:26
  then it will disrupt the relationship dynamic.
• 1:17:29
  And the emotionally immature or narcissistic person is now going to try to push
• 1:17:32
  every button they can to get you back into the position you were because that
• 1:17:36
  was comfortable for them.
• 1:17:37
  So that's where they'll start pushing buttons of saying, wow,
• 1:17:40
  you seem really distant.
• 1:17:41
  You don't seem like you care about me anymore. And all of a sudden they just
• 1:17:43
  hit a button on you. I really care.
• 1:17:45
  And so now I must prove that I care. And so I just, I appreciate what you're
• 1:17:49
  saying. Going through this, my boundaries are an issue.
• 1:17:51
  Let me just say, Lindsay, the part that's really fascinating about this is just
• 1:17:55
  please understand this boundary versus ultimatum.
• 1:17:58
  And I think that's one of the biggest mistakes I see as a therapist or people
• 1:18:01
  that they think they're setting a boundary and they'll say things like,
• 1:18:04
  hey, you can't talk to me that way anymore. And what you just did was you just
• 1:18:06
  handed them the buttons that said, hey, here's how you can get me really upset
• 1:18:10
  because this matters to me.
• 1:18:12
  Because that's an ultimatum. A boundary is if you talk to me this way, then I will leave.
• 1:18:17
  And I've got an episode in my Waking Up to Narcissism podcast about this.
• 1:18:20
  And if you can't tell, I love humor.
• 1:18:22
  Maybe use it a little too much. But I say that when you set that boundary as
• 1:18:25
  well, they will immediately test the boundary.
• 1:18:28
  That's what the immature does. A boundary is a challenge. So now they'll say,
• 1:18:31
  oh, really? Well, what if I say this?
• 1:18:32
  And now you have to back up that boundary. And now if you are saying that, then I will leave.
• 1:18:36
  The part where I maybe tried to go a little too much with the humor,
• 1:18:39
  as I said, and then as you're walking out, you've got a 50-50 chance of ducking
• 1:18:43
  left or right because a shoe is coming flying, because they are not going to take it well.
• 1:18:47
  And then that's where we get back into this concept of a trauma bond,
• 1:18:50
  where the person that delivers you the punishment will also try to give you the reward.
• 1:18:54
  So that's often when you finally set the boundary and you take action,
• 1:18:58
  all of a sudden they're, oh my gosh, they're going to, you know what?
• 1:19:01
  I'm so sorry. I can't believe I did that. And then, oh, you've listened to the
• 1:19:04
  episodes. Thanks. Let's say, okay, I appreciate that for real.
• 1:19:06
  And because in those moments, then, oh, and okay, if you're not in my private
• 1:19:10
  women's Facebook group yet, please email me at tony at tonyoverbay.com.
• 1:19:14
  But please become a part of that group. That would be really helpful.
• 1:19:16
  The popcorn moments. Exactly.
• 1:19:18
  Let's see. Oh, 101 music. I should do a whole, I should do a whole episode on that.
• 1:19:22
  People also need to be financially responsible for going into a relationship,
• 1:19:25
  that would be good as well. What do you do when they test the boundaries?
• 1:19:28
  That is what is difficult. You have to hold the boundary. And this is why it's
• 1:19:32
  so important to understand what a boundary is, because you can't just throw
• 1:19:35
  boundaries out and then, because they will push and push and push.
• 1:19:38
  And I don't know how many times I've had sessions where people just say,
• 1:19:41
  put the line in the sand and they just like, they just cross it and cross it. Oh, exactly.
• 1:19:45
  That's exactly what they're going to do. So you have to be able to.
• 1:19:49
  I would say every little kid by definition is a narcissist. So when you say,
• 1:19:53
  okay, we're not going to Disneyland anymore, then they're just going to work
• 1:19:55
  you and work you and work you until you're in Disneyland again.
• 1:19:58
  So we've little kids have learned that if we say, I'm not getting you a toy
• 1:20:02
  at the store, they're like, really?
• 1:20:03
  Okay. I will scream my guts out. I will make you. And then you'll finally say,
• 1:20:07
  okay, this one time, but that's a you, that's for you to say in that the little
• 1:20:12
  kid just got their toy. They're like, yeah, whatever.
• 1:20:14
  So they've learned to push a boundary. We've taught our kids that,
• 1:20:17
  and we were taught that if I continue to throw a fit and whatever, I will get my way.
• 1:20:22
  So you have to be able to, the email address is Tony, T-O-N-Y at Tony overbay.com
• 1:20:27
  and, or go to my website, Tony overbay.com.
• 1:20:30
  And you can send me something through the contact form and just let me know
• 1:20:32
  that you were here on the Tik TOK alive, but yeah, back to, and let's end with
• 1:20:35
  this, Sid, cause I got early clients tomorrow. Okay.
• 1:20:37
  I'll screenshot everyone else's questions so we can get to them next time. Cause I feel bad.
• 1:20:41
  Oh, I know we got a lot but you guys thanks so much we we took a
• 1:20:44
  little break we're back we'll uh try to do this once or twice a
• 1:20:47
  week again can we book a session yeah uh lindsey in
• 1:20:50
  particular reach out to me please um and uh yes
• 1:20:53
  and send that to can you type in there or tony yeah
• 1:20:56
  just tony at tony overbay.com just bridge thank you you are awesome and but
• 1:21:00
  yeah reach out to me also and then let's see let the partner know why the boundary
• 1:21:04
  is being drawn yes to the yeah i'll do a whole other episode i haven't done
• 1:21:07
  a boundaries episode in a little while so i think that's it i just I screenshotted
• 1:21:10
  all the questions and we'll start with those on the next live.
• 1:21:13
  That would be great. Okay. All right.
• 1:21:16
  Clean mic. Thank you. That's from a musician. I'll take that.
• 1:21:20
  All right. You guys, thank you. It's been wonderful.
• 1:21:24
  Yeah, it did. Yeah. Okay. All right. Great to see you guys. We will see you
• 1:21:28
  next time. Anything to say? All right.
• 1:21:31
  Music.