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The Yappy Candidate · Sunday Scaries: Work Edition

• 0:03
  Welcome to The Sunday Scaries, Work Edition.
• 0:05
  A podcast for hot takes and real talk on all your workplace quandaries.
• 0:10
  Hosted by two burned-out girlbosses who've seen it all.
• 0:13
  I'm Bijal Mehta. I started my career building warehouse and superfast delivery for the Internet's magical two-day shipping. I've worked in Africa, Asia, Europe, and North America with both big tech and start-ups. Over 15 years, I became a Vice President, leading drone-delivery operations. I've managed more than 500 people across the world and these days, I raise my playful daughter and chat with my good friend, Emily.
• 0:37
  And I'm Emily Tao. I got my start making coffee as a production assistant at CBS News. Eventually, I became the first Director of Communications at the largest entertainment union in the U.S. and Canada. My 15-year career - and counting - has taken me from red carpets to political fights to Ivy League admissions offices.
• 0:57
  We're here for your weekly dose of workplace reality. Let's jump in!
• 1:04
  Emily, can I tell you a really funny story? It better be really funny. My expectations are sky-high. Oh my gosh, okay.
• 1:11
  So yesterday, Elaine came into town. Oh my god, yeah, how was that? It was so great! So her and her sister were over, and that was really fun. I love getting to hang out with just the two of them. They're cute together. They're so cute together.
• 1:24
  And because I'm friends with Linda too, that's just like, it's lovely. Yeah. But it's also really fun to watch someone you know really well with their sibling, because you can also see how they were as kids. And like, they love each other, but they also really annoy each other in ways that only siblings can.
• 1:39
  Oh, yes. In my case, I would say, more than that, what happens is I always take the side of the younger sibling. Why? And for whatever weird reason, all my friends are older siblings. And so it's great because I now have this comrade to tease my friends.
• 1:57
  So you are a younger sibling who wants to martyr herself is what I'm hearing. Martyr? Yeah. What do you mean? You just really got to be like the underdog, even if you're not.
• 2:07
  No, no, no, I'm superior. The olders are inferior. Oh, okay. Yes, I'm a younger. I disagree, but sure you think that. As an older sibling, sure.
• 2:17
  I just know I'm better, and I know the olders can never admit it. This is why you're the younger sibling. You need the older sibling to give you a noogie and be like, "That's actually not true" or "Remember the time you peed your pants?" or whatever.
• 2:27
  I have peed my pants way too many times as an adult. I feel like I'm probably going to do that as an adult soon, so maybe I shouldn't have summoned that. I do have a lot of incontinence diapers at home actually right now. Hook it up. I am about to give them away because I think I finally solved my adult incontinence issue.
• 2:43
  Congratulations. Thank you, actually, I'm really proud of this. Yeah, no, that's a really common thing, and as I texted you all: before I'm done with this pregnancy, I'm going to pee myself, aren't I? And everyone said, yep.
• 2:55
  Shall we do our question? What's our question today, Bijal?
• 3:00
  From Is It Rude to Interrupt: "Help! I was conducting an interview and the candidate spoke for 45 minutes straight. She just kept going. I didn't know what to do. How should I handle this next time?"
• 3:17
  The irony is I'm like, yeah, you should interrupt, but I have to admit, this was my question. I was the interviewer, and I was - I felt trapped for 45 minutes with this very polite, very persistent, and very chatty candidate.
• 3:32
  But tell me a little bit more. What did you actually do? How did the interview end? Did the Zoom link just run out?
• 3:39
  So, this was pre-pandemic. We were still doing interviews in person. So it was, she and I were sitting in the same room and this was during a time where I was actually out of the office in-between interviews. And so, when I came back to the office, I was actually quite tired from traveling and doing all these things outside of the office, doing the work outside of the office.
• 4:01
  And I came back, and I just remember sitting there, and I had my list of questions. I thought it would maybe take, I don't know, 20 to 30 minutes altogether. And I think altogether it probably took about an hour with her talking for most of it. And I just remember sitting there thinking she's still going.
• 4:20
  I haven't said anything in about five minutes. It's been eight straight minutes. Eight minutes is a long time of not talking and being talked at. And this was an intro enough interview that did not require eight minutes of talking. It wasn't like a first round screening. She made it to the second round.
• 4:41
  So, you know, this was one of the earlier interviews I'd done in my career. I was pretty new to it, but I was like, "Oh, the other five didn't go like this." And I think I was just tired enough to just kind of keep going and nodding. And then when I checked my watch, I was like, "Damn, it's been 45 minutes." And I should have said something, but what do you say? Because she wasn't rude. She was very prepared, possibly overprepared, right?
• 5:07
  She was clearly passionate about the subject and the industry we're working in that she had so much to say. And, you know, I ultimately did not go with this candidate because I was like, I don't think I'd work well with her, judging from this interview. But yeah, I was like - I felt like I should have given some sort of feedback or done something to be like, it's been like a full hour. It shouldn't be. Everything else is 30 minutes. And so, I do think that was on me a little bit, but I couldn't even say how right now other than, yeah, I really don't know.
• 5:45
  Yeah, I do think it's more tough in person to look someone in the eyes and be like, "Hey, I think we're done here. I got everything I need." It's a lot harder. I am famous, I think, for, at my old job, because I had to do a lot of interviewing and operations. You're doing a lot of bulk hiring. And it was a lot of young candidates, like people who maybe have never worked before or have only had a couple years of experience. So, you know, usually they don't interview as well, and they don't have the decorum down. Though, honestly, what you're talking about can happen to anyone. And I know friends who've been like, "Oh crap, I'm the one who talked at the interviewer for 45 minutes." People get nervous, you have an off day, whatever.
• 6:30
  But on a phone call or on Zoom, I often will just - you know, what I actually started doing is I started at the very beginning of the conversation just saying, "Hey, I know that this interview was blocked to be 30 minutes or 45 minutes. I just want you to know that it actually could be shorter. That's just like a maximum time." Or I'll say, "This interview could last anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes. Don't look into it. Don't read into it based on how long we go."
• 7:04
  I give them and me permission to cut it short. Because I was in time-saving mode for myself. I was so protective of my own time and my own energy. And the other thing is, I think I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but I just think we should all be honest. I would also just tell candidates the outcome of the interview right then and there if I knew. Because I'm like, why should you go home and have more emotions about this?
• 7:32
  Right? I'm just like, get you further along in the processing of this. Because you go home and you're like, if you did well, you might stress that you didn't. If you did poorly, you might stress that you didn't. That's true. I feel like I hear a lot of people - I'd rather give you the reality to stress over and not a hypothetical. Yeah! Like, a lot of people get ghosted after interviews or after sending something. This is much faster. I feel like with interviews, there's this implied set of rules and etiquette that nobody ever can really source.
• 8:03
  I feel like it's so great that you set expectations for these interview times. Because I have heard, when I did my undergrad at McCombs Business School, they were like, "Oh, sometimes you really click with the interviewer and then you talk even longer and that's a great sign for you." And I'm like, you know what? That's happened where you both feel the vibe, right? You're interviewing somewhere, I felt that you guys are really clicking. And then this person talked for a straight hour and I did not feel the vibe. Maybe she did. I don't know. It wasn't mutual.
• 8:33
  It wasn't mutual. It's a great point. I do remember getting that advice. That's like, oh, if the interview goes longer, that's a better interview. But kind of to your point is if that's all you focus on, you're sort of missing the real signal. You're like anchored on, you know, because you can optimize an interview to go long. This candidate absolutely did it, right? But obviously didn't get connection.
• 8:58
  So, okay, here's another controversial thing that I do in interviews. Again, especially when they're younger. But honestly, I'll do to anyone because you're being interviewed to work for me, or to work in a position at the company that I'm still in a position of authority around, even if we're going to be peers. There's a reason I'm on this panel, right? I give them the feedback right then and there and see how they take it. Because that's the real job.
• 9:24
  So I'll be like, "Hey, I'm going to just like hold for a second, right? I really need answers to this question in a certain way." Or like, "You're going a bit long and you're talking about things that I think are a little bit less relevant and I actually have like five or six more questions to get through. So can we keep the answers just a little bit shorter?" Because for me, it's more about the substance of the answer and less about the storytelling right now.
• 9:49
  But sometimes it is about the storytelling, right? So like, whatever the actual feedback is. And I think that would be like my advice for, you know, past you is like, it's boring to get talked at. I totally agree with that, right? But like, then my question beyond that is, but is it like, but did you already know this person wasn't going to be the right fit? Or were you not getting the information you needed to make the decision? Because that's your - the out in the situation depends on which like fork in the road you're on.
• 10:19
  That makes a lot of sense. And I would love that kind of direct immediate feedback. I think that's the best feedback, right? I'm going to throw you for a loop. This was not an operations position. This was a communications position. We do focus on storytelling.
• 10:36
  But to answer your question, I think I knew that this person was not going to be my first pick. She was qualified and, you know, she wasn't like an immediate out, but there were stronger candidates. And I could tell before the end of that interview already.
• 10:54
  So there's so many ways to go with this. I mean, I honestly think at that point, there's not really a right or wrong answer. You could just wait it out like you did. Or it's just like what you want to do, right? Like, I know people who are like once they know the answer to the decision in their head, they're like, all right, let's just like have the conversation I want to have.
• 11:17
  You know, they get all David Sedaris on the candidate and they just start asking them like interesting stuff about their resume just because it's like more interesting for them. The decision's done. And to me, that's the general point is like the etiquette around the exchange and the conversation of the interview is sort of separate to me from the decision. At the end of the day, your job as an interviewer is to make a decision that you can stand by, right? Like you need the signal.
• 11:46
  Once you have that decision and you have that certainty, then the rest of it, they're just a human being. Just have a normal conversation, like end it the way you always end it, you know, or like continue it the way you always continue. Just treat them like a person basically, right? And that's where, that's the reason I do feedback. That's the reason I do, like, cut the conversation short and stuff. I'm like, "Hey, this is respecting me, respecting you." Treat both people in this conversation like humans, like yourself as well.
• 12:15
  Yeah. And I think at that point if I was the one going on, I would have liked to get feedback. I would have liked to get interrupted because I don't want to be that person, right? And so, perhaps I should have maybe not interrupted, but I like how you said about setting expectations about time in the beginning. So, should have done that. I think I should have set expectations for myself. I didn't realize how an interview could go on so long. And then, yeah, maybe, you know, at that time, because I was so tired being out of the office, I like just sitting there and resting a bit while listening. And maybe just, I should be okay with that as well.
• 12:56
  It's totally fine, right? I mean, how many times do we go to boring meetings? What's a boring interview? It's no big deal, really. Yeah. I think my like basic one-sentence takeaway is like interviews, I think, are best when you give yourself full permission as the interviewer to structure it the way you need to, to most efficiently and most effectively make your decision. And treat them like a human being and yourself like a human being. Like all that pretense, all that nerves, none of that helps, right?
• 13:32
  Yeah. It is harder to, I think, acknowledge that when I was younger. Yeah. I still really went by those weird invisible etiquette rules. And I think that does end up being really dehumanizing. Yeah. In an interview. It does. I mean, I also, though, come from tech culture.
• 13:50
  Tech culture tends to be very like anti-old culture, old way of doing things, right? And so I'm actually curious if like you feel like, if you had done these types of things in any of your jobs, do you think like if your boss or someone found out, "Oh my God, you're like telling interviewers right during the conversation the outcome, or you're telling them this could be a 10-minute conversation or you're interrupting them a lot." Do you think you would have gotten negative feedback or would they have embraced that?
• 14:21
  The places that I've worked were all quite old and conservative, especially compared to tech. And old as in traditional, been around for a long time. Organizations that have been around for decades. And I think with that, there is a certain interview culture that gets passed on. I will say for this particular one, if I had given that feedback, I think I would not have told anyone else in my organization that I gave such direct feedback immediately. I would have just said, "This is not my candidate. This is not the pick." Because they have very narrow expectations for what makes a good interview. And I just don't want to get into that.
• 14:59
  So you would have hidden your format from them. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Subterfuge all the way. Yeah. They, ironically, this was also in adjacent to the entertainment industry, which is perhaps - you know, you have storytelling, you have entertainment, you have old school, right? And that can lead to long-winded conversations. But I'm like, you know, the other thing about entertainment or good storytelling or good writing? Cutting it down, editing it short. That's also super important. Yeah.
• 15:29
  I think there's a polite way to give that feedback. Being like, "That was a very rich story. Okay. Now for the second question, I want to see if you can do that but in a more condensed, shorter version." Like, I just want to see how you can story tell in a different way.
• 15:44
  I like that. Yeah. Because it's honest. That's my point about this, right? Like, you truly want them to be able to story tell in a more edited way or a more efficient way as part of your assessment. So you're literally telling them the answer you're looking for and seeing if they can deliver.
• 16:01
  That's true. And interviews aren't meant to be like a pop quiz. No, I don't think they're meant to be gotchas. I really believe that. I think actually it is a common perception or it's been an old perception that interviews are meant to be a gotcha. And I don't abide by that. Like, I'm telling you exactly what I'm looking for and I'm going to see if you can deliver against it. Right? And if you can't, you know exactly why. Right? Like, everybody feels as good as they can because at least - you know, people don't always like the outcomes of these decisions. That's true. That's not what we're here to manage, though.
• 16:37
  I think we're here to manage that people have clarity around the decision. That's what you can give people is the gift of clarity. You can't necessarily give them the certainty of the outcome.
• 16:47
  Interviewing is painful. We don't have to make it even worse. Like, yeah. Why make it confusing? Yeah. But I will say, HR doesn't like those answers. HR and Legal love the confusion, actually. And this could be a great thing to get as a side note, one of our former HR and Legal professionals. I would be very interested and why.
• 17:11
  Why? It doesn't need to be so convoluted. Well, there's a lot of lawsuits that can happen around unfair hiring practices because there is just like legal precedence around it. And sometimes the more clear and the more you've written down, the more exposure you have.
• 17:30
  Yeah. Right? I've heard that as well. Yeah. Which is confusing. Which is confusing. But it's also actually a good reason to have some of these things be verbal.
• 17:38
  So that's a big part of why, when you get like an email response that you're not moving along or you didn't get the role, you don't get a lot of information with it. Right. I do remember that. And there are times I've read advice where it's like, you can ask them for feedback. And I'm real iffy on that because I'm like, if I don't know someone, I'm very hesitant to give them such specific feedback when it's not even necessarily something they did wrong. It's more it doesn't fit the role and it's not personal at all.
• 18:08
  So why not answer that version of the question? Because when someone asks for feedback, they're just looking for information they could do something useful with. So like don't give them feedback. Tell them why they didn't meet the role, you know? I did have to do that when I worked in admissions and there were people after they got their rejection decision would ask for feedback. We would tell them you can ask when it's not busy time. And I was actually able to give them relevant, hopefully helpful feedback.
• 18:35
  But these are also people who are unhappy with the outcome and sometimes are looking for a reason to argue. Yeah. And that is the type of conversation I wanted to sidestep or avoid. Okay, how do you avoid that? That's an interesting question. I wait them out. I wait them out until their feelings of rejection or anger over the decision are not as strong.
• 19:00
  You just let them ramble or express themselves? If they were persistent in that way and there's been some time between the rejection decision and for them to process that, they don't come at you quite so hot. Yeah. So that always ends up, I think, a more constructive conversation. I get it. So it's like you're waiting them out on even like timing when you have this conversation. Yeah, Because they don't realize how upset they are.
• 19:24
  But we've done this with many people over many years. There are some nerds who have not been used to failing, getting anything less than an A, and they cannot cope with that. No. So. I'm not one of those.
• 19:41
  Because you don't fail, right? Yeah. You never fail. Yeah. That's how you cope with it, you just never fail. I'm an A-plus nerd.
• 19:47
  Okay, what are key takeaways from this conversation? I think my key takeaways are I could have set a better structure for the interview, kind of timeframes, expectations for both candidates, and also been more upfront about what kind of person and work-style I was looking for. But I think I'm also hearing I could be a little more chill about myself because it wasn't necessarily a bad interview.
• 20:12
  Nobody was hostile. She was very prepared. As a person who loves bad interview stories, I just love listening to them. This certainly wasn't it. I just remember sitting there being like, "Wow, I've been talked at for five minutes, eight minutes, 12 minutes. It has now been 45 minutes. I didn't expect this at all."
• 20:34
  Great. I think my takeaways are there can be an elegance to how we give feedback live in the conversation of the interview. And I think the thing that creates the elegance is that the feedback has the ability to actually give you the signal you're looking for from the conversation. Like, don't just give generic feedback. "Hey, could you just say like less?" I don't know. Is that relevant to the hiring decision? Probably not, right? There's probably something else that's actually more relevant. Like, I need to hear you story tell in a different style or I actually need to get through a lot more substance. Like, I need more information right now. So, we're going to move faster on these questions because I'm missing information.
• 21:15
  Like, for me, it's always going back to that question of, do I have enough signal to make my decision? And if I don't, what do I actually need to be telling this candidate right now to get us closer to getting the signal I need to be confident with a yes or no? Like, the worst is to be in "I don't know land." Right? Like, I'm not getting the information I need. So, I need to be telling them something right now. And that's me as the interviewer to figure out what I need to be telling them.
• 21:41
  Right. And then, you know, if you have your signal, you can bow out nicely from the conversation if you have a reason to bow out. Like, for me, always having to go to the bathroom.
• 21:49
  Always. Always. So, the pee problems were made up is what I'm hearing. The key problems? The pee problems. No, no. They're very real. But a great excuse for getting out of a conversation. You can always use that. If you're above personal embarrassment and talking about pee to a stranger, it's honestly a great way to get out of a conversation. And judging by this podcast intro, we possibly are. Well, I am. I think you're along for the ride comfortably. We'll find out. It's coming at me.
• 22:19
  I am really interested if people have bad interview stories just because I enjoy listening to them. Yes. But also alternate interview experiences or opinions because we've all gone through this process on both sides. And it can be pretty smooth or kind of unpleasant.
• 22:39
  Yeah. Actually, I'm going to take that as one of my other key takeaways is this is so culturally specific. Oh, yeah. So, I am very curious about people's experiences from other work culture environments, from other working cultures, like other countries. Yeah. I mean, I've interviewed across many continents and countries as well. And there is a different sort of courtesy to it all.
• 23:06
  Which is where, for me, I lean back on the clarity. Like I'm just telling you exactly what I need. Yeah. Because I can't always connect with you on your cultural upbringing. From my cultural experience, they would say that's very American to say so directly. 100%, but who am I? Yeah. An American kid. Which is not a bad thing. You have to work with an American. We got to see if this will work. Very true. And as a New Yorker, it is blasphemy to talk so long. So, I suppose that was on me. That's true. Yeah. It's been the bulk of my experience. That's like being the slow poke on the sidewalk. I know. Move, get out of the way! Get out of the way. Get out of the way.
• 23:39
  Yeah. There's probably a million. I would love to hear from people and their stories around interview experiences. Yes. On either ends of this experience, being the one interviewed and the one doing the interviewing. Come at us. All right. Okay. Bye. Bye.
• 24:00
  That's it for this week's Sunday Scaries: Work Edition. If this episode resonated with you, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and leave us a review. Got a workplace horror story or a burning question? Send it our way at sunday.scaries.work.edition@gmail.com. We might tackle it in a future episode. Or just have a good private laugh.
• 24:25
  Sunday Scaries: Work Edition is produced by Emily Tao and Bijal Mehta. Our theme music is by Bitter Old Men. And artwork is by Erin Leeder. Until next week. May your inbox stay manageable. And your work-life balance tip towards life. Bye.