Latest / The Virtual Couch / The Self-Care Paradox: Why Putting Yourself First Isn't Selfish and Is “Healthy Narcissism” a Thing? Live QA w/Tony and Mackie Overbay

Transcript

The Self-Care Paradox: Why Putting Yourself First Isn't Selfish and Is “Healthy Narcissism” a Thing? Live QA w/Tony and Mackie Overbay · The Virtual Couch

• 0:03
  Um, uh, Here's Sid.
• 0:06
  Okay, you ready?
• 0:12
  Sid?
• 0:13
  It's going?
• 0:14
  Wait, what's going?
• 0:17
  Look at that.
• 0:19
  I look like the weekend's younger brother, like, the weekday.
• 0:22
  Or the mid afternoon.
• 0:24
  Yeah, you guys, we're, we're going by the way.
• 0:29
  Hey, we're live right now.
• 0:30
  Can you guys mute the Super Bowl?
• 0:32
  Oh yeah, yeah.
• 0:33
  Can you turn that?
• 0:34
  It's a dud anyway.
• 0:35
  Okay, we're gonna close these.
• 0:37
  You look so Aw, look at that.
• 0:39
  Crazy!
• 0:42
  Do you want to close these, Syd?
• 0:43
  Yeah, did you ask her?
• 0:44
  Yeah.
• 0:44
  TikTok, but not Instagram.
• 0:47
  Okay.
• 0:47
  There's Olive.
• 0:48
  She's gonna want to come out.
• 0:49
  Olive!
• 0:49
  What are we talking about today?
• 0:51
  I got all kinds of things to talk about today.
• 0:53
  Do we have questions left over from last time?
• 0:55
  And Sid, I'll go back to the document that we used last time.
• 0:57
  Notes to Sid, right?
• 1:00
  Okay.
• 1:01
  Oh, we finished, I think, those.
• 1:03
  Hey everybody.
• 1:04
  Welcome aboard.
• 1:04
  I guess we'll wait for Instagram.
• 1:07
  Mackie, what'd you think about the Super Bowl?
• 1:08
  Loved every second of it.
• 1:11
  No, I'm actually shocked.
• 1:12
  Yeah.
• 1:13
  I mean, I don't really know much or care much, but I'm
• 1:16
  surprised that's how it went down.
• 1:18
  Yeah.
• 1:19
  And I thought the halftime show was dumb.
• 1:22
  Did you now?
• 1:22
  Hot take!
• 1:23
  I just asked Sydney if she knew who Kendrick Lamar was.
• 1:26
  Syd's a fan, right?
• 1:27
  Yeah.
• 1:27
  Did you watch it?
• 1:30
  No, I didn't even know that was today.
• 1:33
  Okay.
• 1:34
  I thought it wasn't bad, I just felt like an old man that didn't
• 1:36
  really know what was going on.
• 1:37
  I mean, maybe it's just because I'm old now.
• 1:39
  Yeah, you are.
• 1:40
  Okay.
• 1:40
  You're quite old.
• 1:41
  Have you been, what's your music genre?
• 1:43
  What do you like?
• 1:46
  I guess just pop, I don't know.
• 1:48
  K pop, like K pop?
• 1:50
  Absolutely not.
• 1:50
  No?
• 1:52
  Alright maybe we, maybe as a warm, welcome everybody my name is Tony.
• 1:56
  That's my daughter, McKinley, Mackie.
• 1:58
  Don't call me that.
• 1:59
  And, uh, don't call you that.
• 2:00
  I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, but tonight we are, I
• 2:03
  am not giving, I'm supposed to say I'm not giving therapeutic advice.
• 2:07
  All right, I guess no i'm giving therapeutic i'm giving I can give
• 2:10
  advice But i'm not doing live therapy, but we want all of your questions
• 2:14
  whether on instagram or on tiktok If you have your relationship questions,
• 2:17
  anything about mental health, Sidney is behind the scenes producing.
• 2:21
  Say hi, Sid.
• 2:22
  Hi, guys.
• 2:23
  Okay.
• 2:24
  And we got Mackie here and we want all your questions.
• 2:27
  I have things that I would like to talk about tonight.
• 2:29
  There's a couple things.
• 2:30
  Number one, I think we can talk about the tiny little elephant in the room,
• 2:33
  but the butterfly stitches that I have on my cheek, because we can talk about
• 2:38
  the movie that we went and saw because we had some hot takes on the movie
• 2:40
  too, which I think was kind of fun.
• 2:43
  Story time.
• 2:43
  I want to know what it looked like from your angle though.
• 2:46
  Cause I still don't really know what happened.
• 2:48
  My chin.
• 2:49
  Oh, I barely saw any of it.
• 2:51
  Okay, so we go to the movies and and the movie theater that we go to
• 2:55
  has a deal where for whatever the ticket costs, you can pay five bucks
• 2:59
  more, you can get a ten dollar arcade card and yes, I am still like a
• 3:03
  teenage boy when it comes to arcades.
• 3:05
  That's a big deal for you.
• 3:06
  It's a really big deal.
• 3:07
  Couldn't turn that down.
• 3:07
  And there wasn't somebody there at the ticket counter to give you 10 for
• 3:11
  5 card and this is where I jokingly said, if we want to learn about
• 3:14
  gaslighting, I can blame it on your mom.
• 3:16
  Because then Wendy just said, well, what if they won't give us the card after?
• 3:20
  So then I said, Oh, okay, I'll go out there right now.
• 3:22
  And I went out.
• 3:23
  And I finally tracked somebody down and they gave me the card and I
• 3:26
  was very happy with myself And I go walking in the theater and it takes a
• 3:30
  minute for your eyes to get adjusted.
• 3:31
  This is, it's not like excuses Cause it doesn't even Maybe that's an old man thing
• 3:36
  I think it is, well no because to set the scene a young girl did it right before
• 3:41
  you Yeah, so what I'm about to confess, apparently it happened right before Here's
• 3:45
  why, so when you're booking a ticket at this theater It looks like there's a row
• 3:52
  that goes on both sides of the seats.
• 3:54
  Clearly.
• 3:54
  I will say that.
• 3:56
  Like most theaters.
• 3:57
  And as a matter of fact, that's why I got the seats we did.
• 4:00
  Because when we sat there, your mom said, Why did you get these seats?
• 4:04
  Because in my mind, I got an end seat, an aisle seat.
• 4:07
  With stairs right next to it.
• 4:08
  And so then when I came into the theater, I'm holding my cards.
• 4:12
  I think I was going to try to crack a joke about I did it or something.
• 4:15
  And then I noticed that there were people in our row.
• 4:17
  So then I couldn't, not only I couldn't crack my joke, because when
• 4:20
  I left, nobody was in the theater.
• 4:22
  I thought that was going to be funny.
• 4:23
  And then there were people in the row, so I didn't want to
• 4:25
  have to go in front of them.
• 4:26
  So I thought, I'll walk over and go up the aisle.
• 4:29
  Which did not exist.
• 4:31
  So I just walked So you smacked your head into a wall?
• 4:34
  So hard.
• 4:35
  And it rattled me.
• 4:37
  Bad.
• 4:37
  And it did.
• 4:38
  And and the worst part is, I haven't even talked about this much, but it looks
• 4:41
  like I'm going to need some, Surgery on something in my neck, so I've got some
• 4:45
  pain often right now, and it's in my neck, and it's also down my arm, and so when I
• 4:51
  ran into that wall, and I hit it hard, it just, I was dazed, and so, but I also was
• 4:56
  trying to hold it cool, like, yeah, that's no big deal, but I hit it hard, huh?
• 5:02
  I don't know.
• 5:02
  Oh, I thought you saw it.
• 5:03
  Oh, okay.
• 5:03
  I saw you bounce off the wall.
• 5:05
  Okay, well that's probably pretty hard then.
• 5:06
  Yeah, yeah.
• 5:06
  I guess.
• 5:07
  Uh, and so then by the time I walk up there, you guys are dying laughing.
• 5:10
  I could've lost an eye and you guys would've been so laughing so hard.
• 5:13
  I would've had to go deal with it myself.
• 5:14
  Because you made it into a wall.
• 5:15
  Yeah, but there was no compassion.
• 5:16
  There was no It would've looked cooler if it was like over your eye.
• 5:19
  Oh my gosh.
• 5:20
  But then we're sitting there and I am trying to be my best self and
• 5:23
  cause that would've been very funny.
• 5:24
  And that's the thing that mom and I have joked about for a long time.
• 5:27
  If it was me, you would have been laughing.
• 5:29
  That's the thing.
• 5:29
  I would have been very concerned.
• 5:31
  No, you would have been laughing.
• 5:32
  Early, early in my marriage I was in college still and I had this final to take
• 5:36
  the next day and mom and I were like, she was chasing me around the house kind of
• 5:40
  a thing and I didn't have shoes on and I caught my pinky toe on a table ledge and
• 5:45
  it just snapped the toe sideways and I had my sock on and she was dying laughing
• 5:49
  and then when I pulled my sock off and my toe was that way, it was kind of funny.
• 5:52
  But then there have been other times where maybe I've hurt myself and I've
• 5:54
  thought okay, well that's not very nice to laugh, but it is very funny.
• 5:57
  But then I'm sitting there and then she just says, what's on your cheek?
• 5:59
  And then I reach up there and it's like a bad horror movie and
• 6:02
  my hands got blood all over it.
• 6:04
  And so then I couldn't get it to stop bleeding and then we get home and
• 6:07
  it's still bleeding and so she put a butterfly stitch or bandaid on there.
• 6:12
  Really embarrassing.
• 6:12
  Yeah, you look so cool.
• 6:14
  Do I?
• 6:15
  I was trying to think of, is The Weeknd is the one that puts the
• 6:17
  band aid on his nose and stuff?
• 6:18
  No.
• 6:19
  What?
• 6:20
  Yeah.
• 6:20
  Yeah, yeah, he did.
• 6:21
  Well, for one album or whatever.
• 6:22
  Yeah.
• 6:22
  So I'm like, I'm like the You get like the fake plastic
• 6:24
  surgery looking face, you know?
• 6:25
  Yeah.
• 6:26
  See, look at how hip I am.
• 6:27
  I don't like The Weeknd.
• 6:28
  So I'm like The Weekday Afternoon.
• 6:30
  That's what I am.
• 6:31
  With this thing on, right?
• 6:32
  That's your joke for it?
• 6:33
  That's a dad joke.
• 6:34
  That is.
• 6:35
  But, the movie that we were seeing, it was Companion.
• 6:39
  Your take.
• 6:39
  Hot take.
• 6:41
  Oh spoiler alert, if we're going to talk about this, because you went
• 6:44
  in not knowing anything about it.
• 6:46
  When I went in the first time, I didn't know anything about it,
• 6:48
  and that's very important to know.
• 6:50
  Well, that's, I feel like we can't even talk about it, because
• 6:51
  it'll spoil the whole thing.
• 6:56
  Okay.
• 6:57
  That's fair.
• 6:57
  Do we give it, we gotta give it more, a couple more weeks,
• 6:59
  then we'll talk about it.
• 7:00
  Okay.
• 7:00
  Because it's an immediate spoiler.
• 7:01
  Yeah, it would be an immediate spoiler, but there are some
• 7:04
  things about relationships.
• 7:05
  I could give a There's some underlying, yeah.
• 7:08
  Themes.
• 7:08
  Underlying themes.
• 7:09
  Yeah.
• 7:10
  One of them just is that you give everything for your partner as
• 7:16
  if that is like a good thing.
• 7:18
  And I think a lot of times early in relationships people do say,
• 7:22
  I'm, I just want to make you happy.
• 7:24
  I want to do whatever it takes to make you happy.
• 7:26
  And you lose yourself.
• 7:27
  You lose yourself.
• 7:28
  Yeah.
• 7:29
  And that's a normal part of a relationship.
• 7:32
  And this is where I just, I think we all go into relationships and we're naturally
• 7:36
  codependent and we're enmeshed together.
• 7:39
  And then when you start to try to do things for yourself, then it will
• 7:43
  often, the other person will then think, well, wait, what are you doing?
• 7:45
  Why are you doing that?
• 7:46
  Why aren't you basically caretaking me?
• 7:49
  And then if you're that pathologically kind person, then you often will say,
• 7:52
  okay, I'll give up myself and I'll go make sure that he or she is happy.
• 7:58
  And then, but I'll get back to myself later.
• 8:00
  But then at that point we just, yeah, I keep kicking the can down the road.
• 8:04
  And so there's a version, I think I was telling your mom on the
• 8:06
  way, on the way home in the car.
• 8:08
  That the healthier version of that is I'm gonna, I choose me first to, to
• 8:13
  take care of myself, self care, it's not selfish, so that I can then love you.
• 8:19
  It's that if I don't love myself then I can't fully love you.
• 8:22
  Because if I don't love myself, then I'm trying to figure out, well, how
• 8:24
  do I do this so that you will love me?
• 8:26
  And so I'm not being my, myself.
• 8:28
  And I'm putting my, the power into someone else's hands.
• 8:32
  And then that person, if they're not, I don't know if they're, if they're not
• 8:36
  the most what thoughtful kind, empathetic person, then they over time really
• 8:41
  started to take advantage of what you're doing to make themselves feel better.
• 8:45
  And it just becomes this endless cycle of you giving up yourself and them
• 8:50
  using you to make them feel better.
• 8:53
  Your thoughts.
• 8:55
  You nailed it.
• 8:58
  I mean, yeah, that's it.
• 8:58
  That's how it goes.
• 9:00
  They've done that.
• 9:02
  What do you think, though, about the self care isn't selfish thing?
• 9:05
  Because I think people struggle with that.
• 9:07
  I think initially I struggled with it, too, because if you take it to, I don't
• 9:13
  want to say if you take it too far, because I don't want to say that self care
• 9:15
  is a bad thing, but if you take it to an extent where you're completely neglecting
• 9:19
  everyone you care about just for yourself, I think that is, there is some negative.
• 9:25
  Like a selfish version?
• 9:26
  You know, yeah.
• 9:26
  Yeah.
• 9:27
  But I think that there is, I think for the most part.
• 9:30
  It's not selfish, and it should be encouraged, and everyone probably
• 9:35
  needs more self care in their life.
• 9:38
  I would love it if Yeah, Syd?
• 9:39
  What helped me understand that, like, more for myself is if you can only show
• 9:44
  up for other people if you show up for yourself first, so it's like, everyone
• 9:49
  should be selfish to an extent, and that is a way to also be there for
• 9:54
  other people, cause if you're not the best version of yourself, you're not
• 9:58
  going to be able to help other people.
• 10:00
  Right, so I guess, yeah, if you're then still showing up
• 10:02
  for people, I think it's good.
• 10:03
  But if you take it so far that then you push away any human contact ever because
• 10:11
  you're so far into that, yeah, then I think it's not beneficial anymore.
• 10:15
  Yeah.
• 10:15
  But if you're, yeah, if you are using it to heal yourself or better yourself.
• 10:19
  And show up for people, then I'm, I'm for it.
• 10:22
  Yeah.
• 10:23
  And then the problem is if you are struggling to do that, most likely
• 10:25
  you weren't modeled that in your childhood by your parents, or you're
• 10:29
  in a relationship where you aren't given enough space or room to be able
• 10:33
  to try to do, engage self in self-care.
• 10:35
  Mm-hmm . And which is a, I mean, that's a red flag right there if your partner's
• 10:40
  not encouraging you to have self care.
• 10:42
  Self care time.
• 10:43
  Yeah.
• 10:43
  Yeah.
• 10:44
  Which then.
• 10:45
  The bold performance horses said, and I don't think self care is
• 10:48
  buying coffee and getting nails done when it's out of our budget.
• 10:50
  Yeah.
• 10:51
  Good call.
• 10:51
  So I think, so what I like about that one, I think, so I think self care can
• 10:55
  start with just starting to allow yourself to think or dream or believe or hope.
• 11:00
  Because so often it go back into what your implicit memory is or what it
• 11:04
  feels like to be you or me or Sid or it's a, it's based off of the slow
• 11:09
  residue of your lived experience.
• 11:10
  So if you're continually.
• 11:12
  down and worried and ruminating and anxious and beating yourself up and what
• 11:15
  did I do wrong then over time That's what it feels like to be you So self care can
• 11:19
  be as much as watching a live with two people that are Encouraging you to do
• 11:24
  self care and it can be reading a book for a little bit or it can be just thinking
• 11:28
  about what you Would like to do even if your yeah butts come right in and say
• 11:32
  yeah, but that would never work Okay, but at least let's start thinking about it.
• 11:35
  So I like what they're saying.
• 11:36
  It doesn't have to be some It doesn't have to, yeah, it doesn't have to be the mani
• 11:40
  pedi, running a marathon, or that sort of thing, although, yeah, yeah, um, Yes.
• 11:47
  Okay, so here's a hot take.
• 11:49
  Are you ready?
• 11:49
  Okay.
• 11:50
  So this article that I really like, and it's by a psychologist named Eleanor
• 11:53
  Greenberg, and it's called The Truth About Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
• 11:56
  And and I will own this every day of the week that I took part of what
• 12:00
  Eleanor says about a particular kind of narcissism and I've and I've co opted
• 12:05
  it and put my own spin on it because I think this is really interesting.
• 12:08
  She just says that normal versus pathological narcissism.
• 12:12
  So first of all, can you even imagine the concept of normal narcissism in
• 12:15
  today's society that somebody is using it as like, you know, normal narcissism.
• 12:19
  That, that is, is not looked at as bad.
• 12:21
  Look at your face.
• 12:22
  I just don't even understand it.
• 12:23
  Well, here's why.
• 12:24
  So she says, Unfortunately, in the English language, the word narcissism has come
• 12:28
  to mean two entirely different things, depending on whether it's being used
• 12:30
  formally as a diagnosis, as a narcissistic personality disorder, or informally
• 12:35
  as a synonym for positive self regard.
• 12:39
  Have you ever heard of narcissism used as a synonym for positive self regard?
• 12:43
  Are there people running around being like, Oh, that's so narcissistic of me.
• 12:46
  And they say, Why, thank you.
• 12:47
  Yeah, I mean there are the ones that would probably say that but they're
• 12:49
  actually the real narcissist So then she just says I know she says that
• 12:53
  she says I'm often asked isn't a little bit of narcissism healthy and
• 12:56
  normal And so here's what I like that.
• 12:58
  She says though, and this is the part that I co opted So she says normal
• 13:00
  healthy narcissism, and this is where I call I will go ahead and say thank
• 13:03
  you Eleanor for your wonderful work, and I'm gonna call it normal healthy
• 13:07
  ego and this is where I go with this.
• 13:09
  Well, because I say like, there's like pride or there's like things like that
• 13:12
  that are confidence that's allowed, but I don't think you'd go as far as that.
• 13:15
  So, and so listen, this is what I think, I would love your thoughts on
• 13:18
  this because when I say I'm going to step into my healthy ego, it can often
• 13:22
  sound actually pretty narcissistic.
• 13:24
  But, here's what she says, and I think it's great.
• 13:26
  She says, Normal healthy narcissism, so I'll say normal healthy ego,
• 13:29
  is a realistic sense of positive self regard that's based on the
• 13:32
  person's actual accomplishments.
• 13:34
  It is relatively stable because the person has assimilated it into their self image.
• 13:39
  The successes that came as a result of their actual hard work
• 13:41
  to overcome real life obstacles.
• 13:43
  So she's saying that because normal healthy, what I'll say, ego, is based on
• 13:47
  real achievements, Then it's impervious to the minor slights and setbacks that
• 13:52
  we all experience as we go through life.
• 13:54
  So she says, normal, again, I'll call healthy ego causes us to care
• 13:57
  about ourselves, do things that are in our self interest and is
• 13:59
  associated with genuine self respect.
• 14:01
  One can think of it as something that's inside of us.
• 14:03
  So if you think of it that way, it is when you do things and you learn new
• 14:08
  talents or skills or you help someone or you build something or you develop
• 14:12
  something, then that I think it should.
• 14:14
  And this is the healthy version of shooting on someone.
• 14:16
  It should cause you to feel a sense of positive self regard.
• 14:20
  So that's the concept of healthy ego.
• 14:22
  Or what she said used to be known as healthy narcissism.
• 14:25
  Is that it's built off of the things that you do that you feel confident about.
• 14:29
  And here's, I don't know, any thoughts?
• 14:30
  And I've got a, I've got a hot, the second part of this will make sense as well.
• 14:35
  No, I'm following.
• 14:36
  Okay, so here's where it makes sense.
• 14:38
  Now the opposite, she says, of normal healthy narcissism.
• 14:41
  So I'll say the opposite of a healthy ego.
• 14:43
  Is pathological defensive narcissism.
• 14:45
  This is the one that we're familiar with.
• 14:46
  So she says, this is a defense against feelings of inferiority.
• 14:49
  The person dons a mask of arrogant superiority in an attempt to convince
• 14:53
  the world that they are special.
• 14:55
  But inside, the person feels very insecure about their actual self worth.
• 14:59
  So you really start looking at the insecurity of a real narcissist.
• 15:02
  So she says, this facade of superiority is so thin, it's like a helium balloon,
• 15:06
  one small pinprick will deflate it.
• 15:08
  So this makes the person hypersensitive.
• 15:10
  to minor slights that somebody with healthy narcissism, so
• 15:12
  healthy ego, would not even notice.
• 15:15
  Instead, somebody with this type of defensive narcissism is
• 15:17
  easily wounded, takes any form of disagreement as criticism, and then
• 15:20
  is likely to lash out and devalue anybody that disagrees with them.
• 15:24
  They're constantly on guard trying to protect their status.
• 15:26
  So she says pathological narcissism can be thought of a protective armor
• 15:29
  that's on the outside of somebody.
• 15:31
  So when I think back to the time that I was in 10 years in the computer industry
• 15:35
  before I became a therapist, I think I was more of this, I had more of that
• 15:39
  pathological defense of narcissism because I didn't know what I didn't know.
• 15:42
  And so then I pretended that I knew things and those around me that actually
• 15:46
  knew them knew that I was blowing smoke.
• 15:49
  I was going to say full of garbage, right?
• 15:52
  And so then if somebody then said, you don't know what you're talking about,
• 15:54
  then I was, I would say, well, you don't know what you're talking about.
• 15:57
  But then once I found.
• 15:59
  The second career 20 years ago, therapy, and I love it, everything about it.
• 16:03
  And it's, and so if I go back to that concept of healthy ego, that it's
• 16:06
  based on your actual accomplishments and it's stable because you've
• 16:09
  assimilated it into your self image.
• 16:11
  So every time I'm reading something or I really learned about acceptance and
• 16:14
  commitment therapy or stages of faith or emotionally focused therapy, or I know
• 16:18
  those, I feel confident about those.
• 16:20
  So then if somebody says I disagree with you, I can sit in that
• 16:23
  healthy ego and say, tell me more.
• 16:25
  But if I don't really know what I'm talking about, then my insecurity
• 16:28
  or my immaturity is going to lash out and say, yes, I do.
• 16:31
  You don't know what you're talking about.
• 16:33
  You see where I'm going with that?
• 16:34
  Yeah.
• 16:34
  And there's no curiosity there.
• 16:36
  No curiosity.
• 16:36
  It's just like, I know better than you.
• 16:37
  It's very defensive.
• 16:38
  And that's where I feel like the, the ego of the narcissist, it is just paper thin.
• 16:42
  And so if you have a, an opinion that is different from theirs, then
• 16:45
  they think, oh, you're telling me that I'm wrong and that you're right.
• 16:49
  And now they must.
• 16:50
  Like black and white.
• 16:51
  Absolutely.
• 16:52
  Yeah.
• 16:52
  So that's where the pathological defensive narcissism comes in.
• 16:55
  And then what's cool about having that healthy ego is the more that
• 16:58
  you admit the things that you know.
• 17:00
  And you're going to also acknowledge the things that you don't know?
• 17:03
  I forgot to check the sound.
• 17:06
  Okay.
• 17:06
  So, so at that point though, the more that you're telling someone and they're
• 17:11
  saying, What do you think about something?
• 17:12
  And if you say, Oh, I really don't know, but then they're going to
• 17:15
  trust that when you say, I do know this, they can trust you.
• 17:19
  They can rely on that.
• 17:21
  So if you're in a relationship with somebody, and if you always have
• 17:24
  an opinion about everything, and you think that you know, Then over
• 17:27
  time your, your partner, your spouse is going to think, okay, I don't
• 17:31
  really, I can't trust this person.
• 17:33
  Yeah.
• 17:33
  Okay.
• 17:34
  All right.
• 17:34
  What are, we have questions?
• 17:36
  Yeah, we have a few.
• 17:36
  Okay, let's do it.
• 17:37
  Okay.
• 17:38
  Okay.
• 17:38
  Jessica said, I feel like I drift away from the person who I want to be and
• 17:42
  then have to fight to get it back.
• 17:44
  If I was right off the bat, that's probably very normal.
• 17:46
  Yeah, it's super normal.
• 17:47
  I was just like, that's probably.
• 17:47
  It's a really beautiful way to say it too, I think.
• 17:49
  Yeah.
• 17:49
  Yeah.
• 17:50
  But I would guess that that's.
• 17:51
  I would love if Jessica's if you can give any examples too, that would be great.
• 17:54
  I would love to hear those.
• 17:55
  I feel like that's part of the thing where you're, when you are growing,
• 17:58
  it's uncomfortable and you feel maybe off or you feel weird because you are
• 18:03
  changing and growing and so it's like I get that that's, it's kind of a drawback.
• 18:07
  Yeah.
• 18:08
  It's hard to push past that.
• 18:09
  Well, and then, and then picture too, if you're in a relationship with somebody
• 18:12
  that is not doing their own work and let's say all of a sudden you say, I'm going
• 18:16
  to start going to the gym, or I want to run a 5K or a half marathon, and if your
• 18:20
  partner is not working on themselves, then I think that's where, then, will
• 18:24
  they be supportive, or will they say who do you think you are all of a sudden?
• 18:28
  And then make you feel small, put you down, and then you start to say,
• 18:32
  okay, I don't even know if it's worth it to pursue this kind of thing.
• 18:36
  Yeah.
• 18:36
  I mean, yeah.
• 18:37
  But yeah, I would imagine that's, I feel like I've felt
• 18:40
  that, so I think that's normal.
• 18:45
  Shaya or Shaya?
• 18:46
  Not sure I am scared.
• 18:48
  I'm the only unlovable person in this world.
• 18:50
  Oh, girls tell me I'm ugly.
• 18:51
  Oh, okay.
• 18:53
  Those girls are immature.
• 18:54
  Yeah.
• 18:54
  We don't want those girls then.
• 18:55
  That's no, that's a them thing.
• 18:57
  That is a them thing.
• 18:57
  That's their problem.
• 18:58
  And they, that's not on you.
• 18:59
  You, you know what stinks about that too is let's talk
• 19:01
  about, I got a theory here too.
• 19:02
  So in almost any group family system that's immature.
• 19:07
  We'll put it that way.
• 19:08
  And I think most.
• 19:09
  Let's say a group of, I don't know if they're teenage girls or how old they are.
• 19:13
  But they almost need a scapegoat to make themselves feel better.
• 19:17
  Yeah, it's projecting insecurity onto someone else.
• 19:19
  Yeah, and it's almost like everybody gangs up and says, Well, at least
• 19:22
  we are better than this one person.
• 19:24
  And so, if that person And they'll keep doubling down on that to
• 19:27
  make themselves feel better.
• 19:28
  But it's not a reflection on that person.
• 19:31
  No, it's a reflection on their immaturity.
• 19:33
  And then if you leave that group, which is not a bad thing to go find friends
• 19:37
  that are that will treat you better.
• 19:40
  They will find a new scapegoat, which is the fascinating thing.
• 19:43
  So that's where I want you to know it's not a you thing.
• 19:45
  And here's something that I have no research to back up, but I've been doing
• 19:49
  this for 20 years and I'm convinced that the scapegoat in a family or
• 19:54
  the scapegoat in a group eventually becomes the transformational character.
• 19:58
  Meaning that if you're still, if you're still in that narcissistic
• 20:02
  family system or group.
• 20:03
  then you're still fighting and vying to get validation.
• 20:06
  So you're willing to sell yourself out, you're willing to not stand up for someone
• 20:11
  else in the group, and that will cause you to further be viewed as the scapegoat.
• 20:15
  So at some point, the scapegoat recognizes that I'm not going to get my validation
• 20:19
  here, and now they have to go out on their own hero's journey, and that's
• 20:22
  where I believe transformational figure.
• 20:24
  They're the ones that have the best chance to figure things out, because
• 20:27
  the people that are stuck in that narcissistic family system, Are all just
• 20:30
  vying for validation and attention and it's all based out of their insecurity.
• 20:35
  I know, I've never, actually I've never put that one out there before.
• 20:37
  Yeah, so it's like, know that it's not you, and that if anything, this is
• 20:41
  giving you You've got the best chance.
• 20:42
  Yeah, this is giving you an opportunity to do better things and to grow and
• 20:47
  change and basically kind of show those people that they're Yeah.
• 20:51
  I know it's so easy to say that if somebody's saying that you're ugly or
• 20:55
  you're not attractive or you're, that it's easy to say, Oh, just find new friends.
• 20:59
  So I know that we've talked about this.
• 21:01
  I know that it's not that easy to do that, but this is one of those things where,
• 21:04
  like we talked about earlier, planting this in your implicit memory or what
• 21:07
  it feels like to be you of just hearing Uh, say that you do not deserve that.
• 21:12
  They are immature and insecure.
• 21:13
  That is a them issue.
• 21:14
  You are so lovable.
• 21:16
  You are.
• 21:16
  And there are people out there.
• 21:17
  Because you exist.
• 21:18
  That's as simple as it is.
• 21:19
  Right?
• 21:19
  Yeah.
• 21:19
  So it is your journey now to find those people that you really connect with
• 21:22
  because it's funny when we find friendship friendships when we're young and those are
• 21:27
  the friendships that often they're often the ones that we think are defining us.
• 21:32
  It's because we geographically live around people.
• 21:35
  And so then we go on a bus and go to the same school.
• 21:37
  And so I guess we're friends.
• 21:39
  But we don't even necessarily have the same interest and the same values and
• 21:42
  the same likes and dislikes and little kids by nature are little narcissists
• 21:47
  walking around all egotistical and, and everything is about them.
• 21:50
  So they lack the ability to really be curious or have
• 21:53
  empathy about others to others.
• 21:55
  So one of the best things that you can do, I think, is when you get into high
• 21:57
  school or you get into college, you find groups and clubs that you really like,
• 22:00
  you find like minded people that will be.
• 22:03
  They will reciprocate the friendships and your relationships.
• 22:05
  And that will see you for who you are.
• 22:07
  See you for who you are.
• 22:07
  And not use you to project their own insecurities.
• 22:11
  Because that's the problem is that if you're finding people that have, they're
• 22:14
  like minded with like interest, like minded is a stretch too because that could
• 22:17
  even be a little, maybe a little culty.
• 22:19
  You know?
• 22:21
  But, but I think that's Not in a scary way.
• 22:22
  No, no, similar interest though, Then then you can, it's easier
• 22:26
  to be yourself because you're having these shared experiences,
• 22:28
  you kind of speak the same Yeah.
• 22:30
  Lingo, that sort of thing.
• 22:32
  Yeah, so, thank you for, for asking that.
• 22:34
  They said, so much, you have no idea how many lives you touch.
• 22:36
  Oh, that's nice.
• 22:37
  That's tender.
• 22:38
  Um, and then someone said I was a scapegoat my entire life, it wasn't until
• 22:41
  I started therapy and the healing journey.
• 22:43
  Thank you!
• 22:44
  K. There's a couple more.
• 22:45
  And, Wait, that one gave me the chills for some reason.
• 22:47
  And then someone convinced my family they were in the wrong,
• 22:49
  things are getting better.
• 22:50
  K. Good for you.
• 22:52
  Good for you for doing taking the steps to do the healing and
• 22:54
  not just accept the situation.
• 22:56
  Okay, now I'm picturing some merch that I'll announce and never follow
• 22:59
  through on, something about scapegoats unite or something like that.
• 23:02
  Cause yeah.
• 23:03
  That's, yeah.
• 23:03
  Sid, you got something?
• 23:05
  Look how happy Olive the dog looks right now.
• 23:06
  Yeah, we have some, we have some questions.
• 23:08
  There's like questions that you guys have.
• 23:09
  Okay.
• 23:09
  Um, okay, going back a little bit, BriBri, can you, is BPD bipolar or borderline?
• 23:14
  Borderline.
• 23:14
  Borderline.
• 23:14
  Okay.
• 23:14
  Okay.
• 23:15
  Can you have borderline personality disorder and not How does not,
• 23:19
  I'll just say, not turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms?
• 23:24
  It's a great question.
• 23:26
  Let me see.
• 23:26
  Does that mean you do poopy behavior?
• 23:30
  No.
• 23:31
  Oh.
• 23:32
  No.
• 23:33
  No.
• 23:33
  Like not do things that would harm you.
• 23:35
  I got it.
• 23:36
  When you edit this on YouTube, can you do put a little bell sound in
• 23:39
  there, like ding ding, like when you got that, that was cool to watch.
• 23:42
  Like I like, okay.
• 23:43
  It's a great question.
• 23:44
  So, just like when I'm talking about narcissistic personality disorder,
• 23:47
  I believe that the people that would fit into the true narcissistic.
• 23:50
  personality disorder category, the belief is 3 to 5%.
• 23:53
  That's pretty small.
• 23:54
  But then I say we're all emotionally immature, so that we have these
• 23:57
  narcissistic traits or tendencies, but then when we're aware of them, we can now,
• 24:01
  we can grow and we can move past them.
• 24:03
  So I think the same thing is with borderline or histrionic or
• 24:06
  antisocial personality disorder.
• 24:07
  They're all in the same cluster of personality disorders.
• 24:10
  So the person that's struggling with borderline personality disorder I
• 24:13
  just think so often they are unseen, unloved, unheard, unsupported.
• 24:19
  And so, the Siren Song of the Borderline, there's a book that most therapists
• 24:23
  have called I Hate You, Don't Leave Me, and so it is those extremes, but I've
• 24:27
  worked with enough people and I, I am gonna try to interject a little bit
• 24:31
  of hope there, because if it's true, borderline personality disorder I would
• 24:34
  doubt that you're here, and you're asking that question, because that means
• 24:39
  you're aware and you're working on it.
• 24:40
  I'm saying that like, you are amazing that you are here saying, hey, if
• 24:44
  I have borderline, you're amazing.
• 24:46
  Is it this way?
• 24:46
  I would imagine you have borderline traits and tendencies because you're trying
• 24:50
  to improve and get better And you're trying to take your own control in the
• 24:54
  situation and not just fall into what?
• 24:57
  maybe It's typically like the stigma of it almost or like totally, you know,
• 25:03
  yeah What everyone else does just because you've been Diagnosed or categorized.
• 25:10
  Categorized.
• 25:10
  I think that's a great word.
• 25:11
  I think so often it's categorized and people haven't necessarily
• 25:13
  gone and got a diagnosis.
• 25:15
  But that doesn't define every action of your life from here on out.
• 25:18
  So if you're, no, so if you're turning to those unhealthy coping
• 25:21
  mechanisms, I would really check in on, look at your, do you feel connected
• 25:26
  with your family or your parents or are you in a healthy relationship?
• 25:29
  Or this goes back to the work that I do with people that
• 25:32
  are struggling with addiction.
• 25:33
  I just, I always start from a place of.
• 25:35
  People are turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms and I've got these
• 25:38
  five voids I talk about where they don't feel connected in their, their
• 25:41
  marriage or their relationship.
• 25:43
  If they're a parent, they don't feel connected with their kids
• 25:46
  or had a parent or their faith, their health and their career.
• 25:49
  And those could even be school health, but those things are the things that
• 25:52
  when people don't feel connected in those areas, they often turn
• 25:55
  to the unhealthy coping mechanism.
• 25:56
  Yeah.
• 25:56
  So I like to acknowledge that.
• 25:58
  Okay, we're going to.
• 26:00
  We're going to start working on where do you find connection?
• 26:02
  Where do you find community?
• 26:03
  Where do you feel like you are seen or understood?
• 26:06
  And I find that a lot of people that, that struggle with borderline traits
• 26:09
  and tendencies, um, are often, they're in relationships, whether it's in the
• 26:14
  family or in their personal relationships, where someone is basically telling
• 26:19
  them that, hey, this is your, you're acting out, you're immature, you're
• 26:22
  borderline, you're, and then that person's having to defend something
• 26:25
  that they might even believe is true.
• 26:27
  Yeah.
• 26:29
  Yeah.
• 26:29
  So this is where I would love for you to do a deep dive on find my virtual
• 26:33
  couch podcast and look up anything that is my name, virtual couch and
• 26:37
  acceptance and commitment therapy.
• 26:38
  Because one of the best places you can start is that you're
• 26:40
  not broken and you're human.
• 26:41
  And so you feel and think the way you do because you do.
• 26:45
  And when other people are telling you how you're supposed to think
• 26:47
  and feel, that is a them thing.
• 26:50
  Right?
• 26:50
  And so start to find the things that really make you feel like
• 26:55
  a sense of purpose and value.
• 26:56
  And know that even when you're starting to do those, it isn't like everybody
• 27:00
  around you is going to jump up and cheer.
• 27:02
  Because most likely they're going to not be as supportive as they need to be.
• 27:06
  So that's hard to then take all that on yourself, but that's one
• 27:10
  of the best things that you can do.
• 27:11
  Okay, going back to, I don't know if it's Shea or Shia, I'm so
• 27:14
  sorry, but I like your post on HSP.
• 27:17
  I'm a boy with HSP and it's very embarrassing.
• 27:19
  I just want to say, no, it's not.
• 27:21
  No, it's pretty cool.
• 27:22
  Not to tell you Wait, wait, wait, wait, we just, we just told, wait,
• 27:25
  we just told him he was wrong.
• 27:26
  How dare you feel the way you do, HSP Shea?
• 27:29
  All I mean is feeling things big is such an incredible thing.
• 27:34
  And I genuinely think if everyone in the world could feel big, feel things big.
• 27:38
  And be aware of other people, things would not suck so bad all the time.
• 27:43
  It's such a good trait, and it's such a beautiful thing to be able
• 27:46
  to feel, and feel things fully.
• 27:49
  And it's nothing to be embarrassed about, is all I'm saying.
• 27:51
  I'm not saying you're wrong for saying that, or feeling that.
• 27:54
  But, it's something that can be embraced fully, and sets you up for deeper
• 28:01
  connection, and a more meaningful life.
• 28:04
  The ability to empathize and show up for people and show up for yourself and
• 28:08
  just be more aware of everything around you So it's not a bad thing and it's
• 28:11
  not something to be embarrassed about.
• 28:13
  Yeah, but we hear you if you are feeling embarrassed Let me know
• 28:16
  that initially we talked about this.
• 28:17
  Yeah, totally and I did I initially like when I Like I've been
• 28:21
  told my feelings are too much.
• 28:23
  I've been told it's like a lot to deal with or things like that and so I it
• 28:26
  definitely started out as a negative thing and started out something that did feel
• 28:30
  like Like, okay, something's wrong with me, I'm too much, this is a bad thing,
• 28:35
  but you have the power to kind of shift that mindset and view it as something that
• 28:42
  can be so good and healing and helpful.
• 28:44
  Yeah.
• 28:46
  Okay.
• 28:46
  That's all I got.
• 28:47
  Oh, it's so good.
• 28:47
  So actually, I'm recording a podcast tomorrow where I'm going deep into, in
• 28:52
  the comments on the video that I think got the most views on Instagram and TikTok
• 28:58
  over the last couple weeks about HSP.
• 29:00
  That there were a lot of people that felt so seen and understood
• 29:02
  and there were others that just, I almost called them in my mind drive
• 29:06
  by comments where they're just saying it's autism, or it's your, yeah.
• 29:11
  And so I've got so much, I have to tell you, I've, I talked to Sydney,
• 29:15
  I would call you my producer.
• 29:16
  She's saying, Hey, old man, get the thing recorded and I
• 29:19
  can't stop writing about it.
• 29:20
  But so here's just a little sneak preview from the notes
• 29:23
  that I'm recording tomorrow.
• 29:25
  And it goes back to Elaine Aron who first researched high sensitivity back in 1991.
• 29:30
  She found that being, again, highly sensitive, it's not a
• 29:32
  disorder, it's a natural trait.
• 29:34
  And there's a big distinction there.
• 29:35
  So, if you look at a personality disorder, that's why the significance of when I say
• 29:39
  that narcissistic personality disorder.
• 29:41
  is 3 to 5 percent of the population because it's a disorder
• 29:44
  view of a per of personality.
• 29:46
  But if you look at something that's a trait, so, highly sensitive person is
• 29:49
  thought to be between 15 and 20 percent of the population, and it's through a
• 29:53
  hundred different species in nature.
• 29:55
  So, you they find these little super highly sensitive fruit flies.
• 29:57
  Those guys gotta be adorable, right?
• 29:59
  But here's what I got for tomorrow, though, that I think is that it says, I
• 30:02
  really think that then if you see that widespread presence then it suggests
• 30:06
  that being highly sensitive, honestly, must serve a very important evolutionary
• 30:10
  purpose or it would not be around at this point with those high of numbers.
• 30:14
  It might not feel like an advantage right now, especially when you feel overwhelmed.
• 30:18
  But I think a lot of times it's again, it goes back to if you find yourself
• 30:22
  in a healthy relationship with somebody that appreciates that sensitivity.
• 30:26
  then it really does become, cliche alert here super, a superpower.
• 30:30
  Because if you, if you identify that something isn't, it serves an evolutionary
• 30:33
  purpose, then there's some sort of survival advantage that is in that trait,
• 30:38
  which I think is really fascinating.
• 30:40
  So when, in my notes, I jotted down.
• 30:41
  So in the case of having a high sensitivity, if you have some members of
• 30:44
  the population who are more attuned to these subtle changes in the environment,
• 30:48
  then it benefits the whole group.
• 30:49
  It's just that you've got a bunch of.
• 30:51
  I was going to say jerks or whatever that are in charge of the group that
• 30:55
  aren't willing to look or listen to the highly sensitive people.
• 30:58
  Because, so I found some cool data that said way back in the day it
• 31:02
  was like having these natural scouts for, or it was like having early
• 31:05
  warning systems within the population.
• 31:07
  So HSPs tended to notice very subtle changes in weather
• 31:11
  patterns potential dangers, social dynamics before others did.
• 31:14
  And in ancient times Then the HSPs heightened awareness to help communities
• 31:19
  prepare for threats or where others might have, I don't know, just not
• 31:22
  seen things until it was too late.
• 31:24
  And and I looked into the animal kingdom and HSPs would even notice subtle changes
• 31:29
  in, in animal behavior suggesting.
• 31:31
  and approaching storm.
• 31:32
  I mean, all this stuff that's real, the shift in the barometric pressure
• 31:35
  or pick up intention in a neighboring group before some conflict erupts or
• 31:39
  the deeper processing of these emotional cues of the HSP, it can give you or
• 31:44
  group more time to prepare or adapt.
• 31:46
  And so it was viewed as a, it was awesome back in the early days.
• 31:51
  So I think we've done a horrible job of valuing the HSP.
• 31:57
  Is HSP due to something from infancy or early childhood?
• 32:01
  Yes.
• 32:03
  Would you care to say more about that?
• 32:05
  So that is one that I like.
• 32:06
  There's some really good comments.
• 32:08
  Really good comments in the comments of one of the videos in
• 32:11
  particular that I just talked about.
• 32:12
  There's just continuing information coming out.
• 32:14
  So, I mean, I'm neuroscientist, but I had always been told that it was more
• 32:20
  about the heightened mirror neurons, reading the room when you were a little
• 32:23
  kid, if you're having to manage your parents emotions, if you're used to
• 32:25
  tension and so your cortisol response is high and your fight or flight
• 32:29
  response, you're right on the edge.
• 32:30
  So you just become very good at noticing subtle changes.
• 32:34
  But then you can also find some data that says that, okay but it's this, you have to
• 32:37
  have the genetic predisposition for that.
• 32:39
  And then find yourself in that position to unlock the, your epigenetics profile to
• 32:44
  then have, be highly sensitive because you can also find brothers, sisters that grew
• 32:49
  up in a family where one of them is highly sensitive and the other one is just not.
• 32:53
  So there is more.
• 32:54
  Yeah.
• 32:54
  So I think there's a lot of variables there too.
• 32:56
  Yeah.
• 32:57
  But here, okay.
• 32:57
  Can I say this?
• 32:58
  So this is the thing that I don't want to say, here, look, this is how mad I get.
• 33:01
  Oh man, I'm frustrated.
• 33:02
  So I can't say that.
• 33:03
  Calm down, please.
• 33:04
  I gotta chill, right?
• 33:05
  But, what I didn't, I didn't appreciate in the comments, and I took very great
• 33:10
  exception, but were these drive by just Passive aggressive comments that then
• 33:14
  dismissed the highly sensitive person.
• 33:16
  Yeah, so I came up with something that I put there in the comments And I I
• 33:20
  said forgive the copy and paste answer see I still wanted to be nice But I
• 33:24
  said it's just too easy for somebody to simply say HSP and ASD autism spectrum
• 33:30
  disorder are one in the same So I said here's what I will share with every
• 33:33
  comment that says they are first of all I appreciate you taking the time
• 33:36
  to comment So I'm still going to be a gentleman but then I said I have an
• 33:39
  episode coming out about this later this week, but there are so many differences.
• 33:42
  There are so many differences between HSP and somebody that
• 33:45
  has Autism Spectrum Disorder.
• 33:47
  So stay tuned for more, but here's the key that, uh, it's this, there's so
• 33:51
  many that it's, that people who aren't HSP can easily put them in the same
• 33:55
  bucket and then they just move on.
• 33:56
  That's why I called it like this drive by comment.
• 33:59
  So it's like somebody yelling out the window you're autistic.
• 34:01
  And then they just drive away.
• 34:02
  And the person that's highly sensitive is wait, am I?
• 34:05
  Yeah, now I gotta go figure that out.
• 34:06
  Yeah.
• 34:07
  And so you, you drop this bomb and you, you run away and sprint away.
• 34:10
  Yeah.
• 34:11
  So I said it's so much easier for the person that is not highly sensitive
• 34:15
  to do that than for them to actually have to understand the differences
• 34:18
  and to learn something that they don't even know that they don't know.
• 34:21
  Because now we're back into my world of emotional immaturity
• 34:23
  where it's like, well, I know what it is even though I'm not HSP.
• 34:28
  That's one of the most ridiculous things that I think
• 34:30
  when you really break it down.
• 34:32
  When somebody says, well, I, I don't, if somebody says, I don't even
• 34:35
  think it's a real thing, that should not even elicit a response, right?
• 34:39
  But then if you say it to the highly sensitive person, that's the person
• 34:42
  that's going to feel like, oh man, I need to, again, I'm going to go
• 34:45
  on some month long deep dive to see if that guy might be right.
• 34:49
  That guy's a jerk, right?
• 34:52
  Anyway, no, so stay tuned.
• 34:54
  The episode I have, I think currently my notes are, if I'm
• 34:57
  looking at this, oh, 23 pages.
• 34:58
  So I'm going to have to trim that thing down a little bit.
• 35:01
  But I have so much and so many examples coming, so thank you for that comment.
• 35:04
  Okay, Dennis said, isn't it the same with, is NPD narcissists?
• 35:07
  Yeah.
• 35:08
  Whatever many variables.
• 35:09
  Yeah.
• 35:10
  Not just the childhood thing.
• 35:10
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:11
  Yeah, Dennis.
• 35:11
  Yeah, I think so too.
• 35:12
  Yeah, Dennis, thank you.
• 35:13
  Yeah, so the it's on a spectrum.
• 35:15
  And that's where I know for a fact that I had narcissistic traits and tendencies
• 35:21
  or extreme emotional immaturity.
• 35:22
  And go, please go binge Waking Up to Narcissism, the podcast, because Early
• 35:27
  on, that's where I wanted to make the clear distinction that, about narcissistic
• 35:30
  personality disorder, small percentage, but we're all emotionally immature
• 35:33
  until we're not, so we have to, but that takes sitting with discomfort, self
• 35:37
  confrontation, not throwing out these drive by comments and somebody's video.
• 35:41
  That sort of thing.
• 35:42
  Yeah.
• 35:43
  Hey, this might be me being highly sensitive, but I feel like their
• 35:47
  intentions could just be like, if they have autism, then they don't want
• 35:51
  someone to like, be getting misdiagnosed.
• 35:53
  You know, like, it's like, Oh, you're, you're nice.
• 35:55
  They don't know what they don't know.
• 35:56
  Yeah.
• 35:57
  Even if it seems maybe like, aggressive to you, that could
• 36:00
  totally not be their intention.
• 36:01
  That's fair.
• 36:02
  That is very fair.
• 36:03
  I hope everybody can hear that.
• 36:05
  So, Sid's saying that maybe somebody who, duh, is on the autism spectrum
• 36:09
  is saying Wait, say it again?
• 36:11
  Like, who's this guy saying all this hoopla when, like, this person has autism
• 36:14
  and now they're gonna be misdiagnosed?
• 36:16
  Yeah, so, so they're worried It comes from a place of empathy, but
• 36:20
  it's not being displayed correctly.
• 36:21
  See, that's really funny.
• 36:22
  That's true.
• 36:23
  Because if I just need the word autism in all caps, then I'm not
• 36:27
  looking at it like that person's saying, Oh, don't misdiagnose this
• 36:30
  person, they might be autistic.
• 36:31
  I see it like, wrong, but which is a me thing.
• 36:36
  And I like what you're saying, because again, we go back to, we do
• 36:38
  project the way that we think onto everyone else because everybody
• 36:42
  else must think this way as well.
• 36:43
  Yeah, I was talking to Mike last night about that, about people like they
• 36:48
  get scammed and it's like, you just assume that everybody's not going
• 36:52
  to scam people because if you're not going to scam somebody, but then
• 36:56
  that person is doing the same thing.
• 36:58
  They're like, well, we would all do it if we could.
• 37:00
  So it's a battle of projections.
• 37:03
  Sorry, I'm trying to find Well, that's a great comment, man.
• 37:05
  Yeah, that's such a great comment.
• 37:05
  I'm trying to find Oh, thanks, man.
• 37:06
  We need to go back to Jessica.
• 37:08
  Okay.
• 37:09
  Oh, I was gonna ask you guys Sss.
• 37:11
  Forgot what it was.
• 37:13
  And Jessica was the Or, where did it go?
• 37:16
  I lost it again.
• 37:17
  She was the one saying, I feel like I drift away from the person
• 37:19
  who I want to be and then I have to fight to get it back.
• 37:21
  Mm hmm.
• 37:21
  And then you asked if she could give examples.
• 37:23
  Oh, good.
• 37:24
  Thanks, Jessica.
• 37:25
  No, I didn't.
• 37:25
  I never said that.
• 37:26
  Okay, and then she said, she said, I feel like there are certain
• 37:30
  things that cause me to not feel important or good in my own skin.
• 37:34
  And then said, self alignment state, feeling fades, disconnected, makes it
• 37:38
  hard to get back to alignment again.
• 37:41
  A disconnect can, and I think that's, I appreciate that too,
• 37:44
  because what can we, yeah, okay.
• 37:46
  I feel, that's correct, I feel like the world around me is not made for me.
• 37:50
  People in their own world all the time and don't acknowledge that.
• 37:54
  Okay, that's true.
• 37:55
  What do you guys think about that?
• 37:57
  It's a, I feel like I'm feeling things.
• 37:59
  Okay.
• 38:00
  Well, because that part, can you read that again, Syd?
• 38:03
  The last part, I feel like the world around me is not made for me.
• 38:07
  People in their own world all the time and don't acknowledge me.
• 38:10
  I feel like that's when, like, selfishness is a bad thing.
• 38:13
  Right.
• 38:14
  Well, and this is where I think often there's I kind of like in my mind I
• 38:17
  call it this for lack of a better word, this societal or family template of this
• 38:21
  is the way things are supposed to be.
• 38:22
  And so the people maybe like Jessica that have other interests and other beliefs
• 38:27
  and other thoughts and hopes and dreams feel like they don't fit in because they
• 38:32
  don't fit into that societal template.
• 38:34
  But that's okay.
• 38:36
  But I think that too often the people that don't fit that template.
• 38:39
  Or not, they don't speak up or they don't really have a voice or so they do
• 38:43
  feel like what's wrong with me or nobody really understands me and they're out
• 38:46
  because, and okay, I guess now, I like that we're saying this, I get to talk to
• 38:49
  people who feel that way and so then I, I often think, I really, often I think,
• 38:55
  man, I wish I could just match people up in my practice because there's so many
• 38:59
  people that are feeling similar things.
• 39:00
  Yeah, but then feel like.
• 39:01
  Yeah, and they're trying to, and they're trying to show up a
• 39:03
  certain way to fit in with society.
• 39:05
  Well, and it feels like, because I relate to what she's saying, it feels like we're
• 39:09
  not in the majority because that kind of behavior isn't praised in our society.
• 39:14
  In our society, it's like, you're praised if you're aggressive and
• 39:18
  if you're like, firm and I don't know, if you're selfish, really.
• 39:22
  The bad version of it, right?
• 39:23
  People who win a lot of the time, and so other people who don't feel
• 39:26
  like that don't speak up, and it's But I do, I genuinely feel like there
• 39:30
  are, we hopefully are the majority, but like, there's so much more.
• 39:34
  I feel like there's so many more good people around than we think there are.
• 39:38
  They're just not the ones that are speaking up because they don't, you know,
• 39:42
  need to be famous or need to be heard.
• 39:44
  Yeah.
• 39:45
  Well that's what you've brought awareness into me of when we get
• 39:48
  a video that really goes well.
• 39:49
  That then the, almost the little communities that form
• 39:52
  in the comments even, where people feel seen and understood.
• 39:55
  And I have clients of mine that do that.
• 39:57
  They found their community in, in, yeah, like comments on videos or in, in apps.
• 40:02
  I yeah.
• 40:05
  Well, I think the thing is, realistically, if you look at a lot of those people
• 40:08
  that you're saying maybe do fit that template or do things aggressively or do
• 40:12
  like whatever we're saying, that majority is, there's a good chance that you don't
• 40:17
  actually want to be like those people.
• 40:20
  Yeah.
• 40:21
  If that's fair.
• 40:21
  Yeah.
• 40:22
  And so it's like the fact that, It's maybe not the majority and maybe it feels like
• 40:26
  you're the only one feeling that way.
• 40:28
  That doesn't That's not a bad thing.
• 40:31
  I feel like if anything that's more props to you for Living in your
• 40:35
  own world and doing your own thing because that's like Your journey and
• 40:39
  that's what life is supposed to be.
• 40:40
  It's not supposed to just be Follow this template do everything
• 40:44
  the same as everybody else.
• 40:45
  Totally, which is it's almost like the easier way out But it does feel it can't
• 40:48
  feel lonely or you can't feel isolated or like you are the only one in that
• 40:52
  position But then what you're saying as being the therapist, it's like, just know
• 40:56
  that there's plenty of people out there.
• 40:58
  There's so many people.
• 40:59
  Yeah, they're just not, yeah, you have to do more work about it or
• 41:02
  being super loud about it or making it known that they also feel that way.
• 41:06
  But like you're saying, you know, plenty of people that feel that way.
• 41:10
  Yeah.
• 41:10
  And I think again, not to go off on a tangent here, but
• 41:13
  this is why I can't stand.
• 41:14
  And you guys can speak to this, but the online dating world these days.
• 41:18
  Cause, I gotta do my bit, you gotta, three pictures, one by a waterfall, one
• 41:23
  with a golden retriever, and you got a bandana, and then hold your niece or
• 41:25
  nephew, and a clever movie quote, and there's your profile, this is who I
• 41:29
  am, and that's just ridiculous, because it's hard to then say, these are the
• 41:32
  things I really like or don't like.
• 41:34
  Yeah, so that people can then connect at a better level initially and then
• 41:38
  I think people go into their dates and they are like Thinking it goes
• 41:41
  back to who do I need to be right now to get this person to like me?
• 41:43
  So neither person is being very horrible way to have to live your
• 41:46
  life, and I'm saying that you've done it You've done it, right?
• 41:48
  You did that for years.
• 41:49
  Same, okay.
• 41:50
  And I would just cater to whatever person or whatever group of people I
• 41:54
  was With because I felt like I had to fit that mold or show up in a certain
• 41:58
  way Yeah, and it's so much more freeing and you grow so much more When you
• 42:03
  just live your life as who you are.
• 42:05
  Yeah, because then you're playing that game of where somebody is saying,
• 42:07
  Do you like this kind of movie?
• 42:08
  And you're like, Oh man, do you like it?
• 42:10
  Like, if you like it, I like it.
• 42:11
  Yeah, versus saying, Oh, no, I think it's crazy.
• 42:13
  Which is okay.
• 42:14
  Yeah, it's great to have an opinion and it's great to have conversations
• 42:16
  and not just live the life you think everybody needs you to live.
• 42:20
  Which goes back to, I need to think that I'm fitting this template
• 42:24
  so that I'm normal, air quote.
• 42:26
  Right.
• 42:27
  And so the person that is really But they're going to sense the
• 42:28
  people that are fitting the template being normal or just being fake.
• 42:31
  Oh, absolutely.
• 42:32
  So, not to be rude, but it's like there's a whole thing there.
• 42:35
  Well, there is, because I think maybe that's too why I can get the most air
• 42:38
  quote again normal looking person in my office who then will let me know
• 42:42
  the things that they really wish they could do, the kind of person that
• 42:44
  they would like, the shows they watch.
• 42:46
  But then they're saying, and I love this phrase, they're like,
• 42:48
  I mean, I know I shouldn't.
• 42:50
  What is she?
• 42:50
  Oh, just scratching the floor.
• 42:51
  Scratching the carpet.
• 42:53
  Okay, does that mean there's like a dead body under there or something?
• 42:55
  Like, under the foundation of the house?
• 42:57
  Oh, remember that was always my bit when the dogs would come in?
• 43:00
  I'm like, what's that girl?
• 43:01
  Somebody's in danger?
• 43:02
  Yeah.
• 43:03
  And you guys never laughed.
• 43:05
  Sid.
• 43:05
  You guys were scared.
• 43:06
  Hey, wait.
• 43:07
  I like to laugh when you say things that aren't funny sometimes.
• 43:11
  Okay.
• 43:11
  Jessica said, I feel like when I don't fit the template, I don't feel aligned.
• 43:14
  Yeah.
• 43:15
  Oh, yeah, Jessica.
• 43:15
  I feel like there's a shift there though in the mindset that can
• 43:17
  happen, which I don't, you're the therapist, so take that away.
• 43:20
  Okay, it's a, well, it's a great one because the fact that you're aware
• 43:23
  of that, it, we moved from, one of my favorites, didn't know what I didn't know,
• 43:27
  now I know, but I don't know what to do.
• 43:29
  And it's one of the most difficult and challenging and places you will
• 43:32
  be in the longest on your grow, growth to becoming more emotionally mature.
• 43:36
  And growing is uncomfortable.
• 43:37
  It's super uncomfortable.
• 43:38
  So it's going to be uncomfortable.
• 43:38
  Yeah.
• 43:39
  And that all goes back to then feeling like that's when you.
• 43:41
  fall back from the person you're trying to be.
• 43:43
  Like it all, yes.
• 43:44
  It all checks out.
• 43:46
  So right now it feels uncomfortable because you're aware and that awareness
• 43:49
  though is part of the process of becoming.
• 43:52
  So now that you're aware, you will, like Mackie says, probably have these
• 43:55
  moments where you revert back to wishing you didn't even know and just trying
• 43:58
  to figure out How do I need to do this?
• 44:00
  Or who do I need to be?
• 44:01
  Because now you have to be uncomfortable, but that's to grow.
• 44:03
  Yeah.
• 44:04
  And to heal, and to do good things.
• 44:05
  Oh growth.
• 44:06
  So it's worth it, but it's uncomfy.
• 44:07
  So growth comes through the discomfort, and the more that you are recognizing,
• 44:10
  and then finding out what you really like, who you are, the things you care
• 44:14
  about, the fact you're aware of it.
• 44:16
  Again, it will be uncomfortable because you'll start to feel like
• 44:19
  other people aren't that way around me.
• 44:21
  But the more you're doing and being, the more you will start to, there's,
• 44:24
  you'll find little bits and pieces of people that maybe have similar
• 44:28
  interests that you never would have known had you not recognized.
• 44:32
  I don't like the person I'm trying to be and then eventually you start to interact
• 44:36
  with those people and now we move from I Didn't know what I didn't know to now.
• 44:38
  I know but I'm not sure what to do I don't do it very often.
• 44:40
  This is super uncomfortable to okay.
• 44:42
  Well, that was nice now I do it more than I don't but I jump back into I'm still
• 44:45
  not sure what to do Eventually you find your way in that third box here of like
• 44:51
  now I'm doing more than I didn't before and then eventually you just Just become.
• 44:55
  You are.
• 44:55
  You found your people.
• 44:56
  You are good.
• 44:57
  When people tell you that they don't like the way that you do or say
• 44:59
  things, you say, that is so adorable.
• 45:01
  Tell me what you don't like about me.
• 45:02
  Cause I'm curious.
• 45:03
  Cause I'm good.
• 45:04
  And I think in that you'll end up feeling aligned with like your true self.
• 45:08
  So even though it feels maybe like it's the opposite of that,
• 45:12
  right now, you're on your journey.
• 45:14
  That's basically just a sign that you're doing something right.
• 45:17
  Again growth comes from discomfort and okay.
• 45:20
  Run down this almost every time I can.
• 45:22
  We are wired to avoid discomfort, and we seek certainty.
• 45:25
  Continually, we want to know.
• 45:26
  I want to know if this is the right thing to do, because if it is, then I'll do it.
• 45:29
  Well, the reality is, you don't know if it's the right thing to do
• 45:31
  or not until you start doing it.
• 45:33
  And then, the unfortunate part is, often, then we want to ask
• 45:35
  other people, Do you think this is the right thing for me to do?
• 45:38
  Even though that's somebody else, other than me, that doesn't even
• 45:40
  know what it feels like to be me, and why I'm doing the things I'm doing.
• 45:43
  Okay, wait, she said, wait, did you say revert to who I think I need to be?
• 45:46
  I think we were saying you revert back to, basically, the template.
• 45:49
  Yeah.
• 45:49
  Basically, who you think.
• 45:52
  Other people want you to be, not who you are actually trying to be.
• 45:57
  And it's normal to take a step back.
• 45:58
  I would say it's like, this is the good version, the cliched
• 46:00
  two steps forward, one step back.
• 46:01
  Yeah, it's part of, it's not linear.
• 46:04
  It's part of that process.
• 46:05
  But reverting back to, I think that's what you're saying.
• 46:07
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 46:08
  The person you don't want to be, basically.
• 46:10
  Yeah, we'll still go back there because it's easier to go back to this place.
• 46:13
  And that's what you've known for however long.
• 46:15
  And so it's like, it's not just gonna, you can't just flip a switch.
• 46:18
  I mean, and I'll say 10 years in the computer software industry, I
• 46:20
  go back to night school, I get my master's in counseling and I start
• 46:23
  becoming a therapist and it was so awkward that I kept going back into
• 46:26
  the computer industry thinking, okay, maybe the therapy thing was actually
• 46:29
  a bad idea, and then I'd do it again.
• 46:31
  You're like your default setting in a sudden I was like, no,
• 46:34
  no, I like this, I like this.
• 46:35
  And all of a sudden I would have some client or some case
• 46:37
  where I thought, well, who am I?
• 46:38
  What am I doing?
• 46:39
  And now I'm back there, you know what?
• 46:40
  It was nice to get my master's and maybe I'll write a book someday and
• 46:43
  I'll have some letters by my name.
• 46:44
  I'm going back to the computer industry, but at that point,
• 46:46
  that's not who I was for sure.
• 46:48
  And so then, but then eventually then I'm the therapist now and I don't
• 46:51
  ever go back to the computer industry.
• 46:52
  And then eventually that just becomes, and I just am.
• 46:55
  And now that process is now somebody is trying to tell me they don't think.
• 47:00
  Because early on, when I would tell people I'm being a therapist, I, somebody would
• 47:03
  say, I don't know if I believe in therapy, and I would spend 20 minutes trying to
• 47:06
  defend therapy for the, for Mr. Therapist.
• 47:09
  I don't know.
• 47:10
  Now, if they say I don't know if I believe in it, I'm like, okay.
• 47:14
  Okay, do what you want.
• 47:15
  Yeah, yeah, but when you eventually need it, then, I might be full.
• 47:19
  Okay do you remember Skylar from last time?
• 47:21
  Yeah, I do.
• 47:22
  She said, hey, just letting you guys know, I'm probably gonna leave my boyfriend.
• 47:25
  I thought we fixed it.
• 47:26
  He's just not supportive consistently and he tells me I gaslight him
• 47:29
  and I act like a narcissist.
• 47:31
  Skylar, I'm proud of you.
• 47:32
  Yeah, Skylar, I remember you well.
• 47:33
  Yeah, I think you made the whole show last time.
• 47:36
  And what's wild about that is almost every single, I can still remember
• 47:40
  one of the first times I did a podcast episode on gaslighting and there were
• 47:44
  two women I was working with at the time that were in narcissistic or
• 47:47
  emotionally immature relationships and they Sent the podcast to their
• 47:51
  immature partners who literally within about two hours because both the women
• 47:55
  texted me both the guys said Oh, yeah, that's exactly what you're doing to me.
• 47:59
  And it is it's projection and what it is is when you express yourself to
• 48:02
  somebody that is immature they know the buttons to press to get you to react
• 48:06
  and so this is the part where you need to know that You're okay And that when
• 48:10
  you say, well, I, this is how I feel, this is what I think you're doing.
• 48:13
  It's almost inevitable, I call it parroting, that they're going to go,
• 48:16
  well, that's exactly what you do.
• 48:18
  And now I'm going to defend myself.
• 48:20
  But in reality, this is where, if you can be curious, well, tell
• 48:23
  me more, give me some examples.
• 48:25
  I don't have to, you're just doing it.
• 48:26
  Don't just let them take the cocktails like that.
• 48:27
  Yeah, because they're just, they're just throwing that up against the, against it.
• 48:30
  But Skylar, well done.
• 48:31
  I mean, that's hard, though.
• 48:32
  It's so hard, but I think that it'll be a thing a couple, like Maybe even
• 48:35
  six months, a year from now, whatever.
• 48:37
  It's you'll look back and be like, I know when I left my bad relationship
• 48:41
  and I'm not saying that this is exactly what happened, but literally it was
• 48:44
  like two weeks and all I was, I like snapped out of it and then realized
• 48:50
  how bad the relationship was and how much better I was on my own and it
• 48:54
  like, I I still, it was just crazy to feel okay again and be like, Oh, I
• 49:00
  actually, Can I like we said it's time.
• 49:04
  Yeah, but it will it could and it's like then you'll still years go by and you
• 49:08
  still maybe we'll have to come up or whatever, but it will Ultimately be better
• 49:13
  Skylar if you can reach out to me Contact at Tony overbay comm and just tell me
• 49:19
  that this is who you are and then I'll send you a handful of podcasts I think
• 49:23
  will help Some things about trauma bonds, some things about this differentiation
• 49:27
  in immature relationships and those are things that maybe you can go to if
• 49:30
  you're starting to ruminate or worry or start to wonder, feel bad about yourself.
• 49:36
  How can I get my wife back?
• 49:37
  We've been separated for some time now.
• 49:39
  I fell off the wagon and I destroyed everything we built and
• 49:42
  she says she needs space to heal.
• 49:44
  Okay, I, man, thank you.
• 49:46
  Respectfully, she needs space to heal.
• 49:48
  And the best thing you can do is give her that space.
• 49:51
  It's hard though, and this is so hard because I feel that pain.
• 49:54
  I work with a lot of men as a male therapist.
• 49:56
  And this is a pop, a part of the population I do work with often
• 50:00
  where the person, okay, says he fell off the wagon again.
• 50:03
  And I know he's already feeling bad about that, because every person
• 50:07
  that is struggling with any kind of unhealthy coping mechanism, I really
• 50:10
  believe that when they say, I'm never doing it again, they believe they
• 50:14
  won't ever do it again until they do.
• 50:15
  The intention there is good.
• 50:16
  Yeah, right?
• 50:16
  But then, if your wife is finally saying, I've had enough, if you are now begging
• 50:21
  her to take you back you're asking her, in essence, to to mother you, to then
• 50:26
  be your emotional caretaker, and that's something that she's probably felt
• 50:30
  like she's been doing for a long time.
• 50:32
  And so as difficult as it is, like Mackie's saying, if she's saying,
• 50:35
  this is what I need, if this is the If she's asking for the time to
• 50:39
  heal, yeah, you need to give her the time to heal and then go from there.
• 50:44
  Yeah, well I'm saying Like, keep doing your thing.
• 50:46
  Well, that is, but it's like Literally, but, and keep doing your thing and take
• 50:49
  the time to You have to continue to work on the things that you feel you
• 50:53
  can't sit there and just like ruminate and worry you have to go to therapy if
• 50:57
  you're find a support group You have to do the work right now because that's the
• 51:02
  that's the thing that will then allow you to deal with your own discomfort And
• 51:06
  that is what is going to, if there's a chance to have her feel more safe around
• 51:12
  you, is Yeah, like if there's potential for you guys to come back together.
• 51:14
  Yeah, there has to be some It's only gonna happen if she gets her space to heal,
• 51:18
  and you continue to do the good things.
• 51:21
  Yeah.
• 51:22
  And then, I mean, not if that's not what's meant to be in the end, then
• 51:28
  at least you've both been doing the work, and you will have continued
• 51:31
  to heal and get back to yourself.
• 51:33
  And then find what is meant for you.
• 51:36
  Yeah.
• 51:36
  And get back in the wagon.
• 51:37
  Yeah.
• 51:38
  Stay in the wagon, cute and comfortable.
• 51:39
  Why does nobody ever talk about getting back in a wagon?
• 51:42
  Get back in the wagon.
• 51:43
  Okay, true story.
• 51:44
  When I was in Tennessee, I was probably four or five years old and
• 51:47
  I'll never forget this to this day.
• 51:49
  I'm pulling this little kid.
• 51:50
  His first name was Blue.
• 51:51
  My mom and dad have told me that this is a, this is an acute memory.
• 51:54
  I'm pulling him around in a wagon, I dump the wagon, he falls out, I run home
• 51:58
  because I think I'm in trouble, found out later he broke his arm, but he was
• 52:01
  little, I don't think he could talk.
• 52:02
  You just left him there?
• 52:04
  Yeah, I think my parents knew though, I think they ended up talking
• 52:08
  to Blue's parents and stuff, but I just Blue never walked again.
• 52:12
  Oh.
• 52:13
  Okay wait, quick, Jessica wants good books about psychology, just
• 52:16
  good, top three that come to mind.
• 52:17
  I mean, Happiness Trap, Happiness Trap by Russ Harris, it's it's one
• 52:20
  of the best books to start with acceptance and commitment therapy.
• 52:23
  I bought copies for both my daughters, and I'm sure that
• 52:25
  they're deep into them by now.
• 52:27
  14 pages!
• 52:29
  Sid?
• 52:30
  That title looks real good!
• 52:32
  Ayoyora.
• 52:32
  Ew.
• 52:33
  Never do that again.
• 52:35
  Never do that again.
• 52:36
  But that start there, from an acceptance and commitment therapy point of view,
• 52:39
  I think that's really important.
• 52:41
  I'm trying to think of, I, there's this, there's a lot
• 52:43
  What's the confidence one you do?
• 52:45
  The Confidence Gap, that's similar, it's the same author.
• 52:49
  My first thought is just, it's any of the acceptance and commitment
• 52:52
  therapy books because I just think you need So really Happiness Trap
• 52:54
  is Just start with Happiness Trap.
• 52:55
  And then, and honestly, and same.
• 52:57
  Email me when you're done with happiness trap and then we'll talk and I will get
• 53:01
  a list I should get a book club list together Yeah, because there's some
• 53:03
  really good ones about internal family systems and no bad parts and then so
• 53:08
  it's like I feel like it depends Yeah, there's good couples therapy ones that
• 53:11
  like yeah, there's a lot happiness trap is a great start And if you're like me
• 53:17
  and you never learned how to read, they have them with pictures, don't they?
• 53:20
  Yeah, they do.
• 53:20
  They do!
• 53:21
  The Simple Happiness Trap book.
• 53:23
  It's nice.
• 53:23
  Which you took offense to though when I got it to you, right?
• 53:25
  Yeah, because I was like 20 like, here's this picture book for you.
• 53:28
  I was 21.
• 53:29
  Okay.
• 53:29
  And 2.
• 53:31
  Wait, you're only 23.
• 53:32
  Oh, you are?
• 53:33
  Literally in a couple days.
• 53:34
  Okay, but here's the thing though, look at you like, I was so offended
• 53:38
  you gave me this picture book, even though you've never read the book.
• 53:41
  I did, I read, I read like more than half of it from the picture book.
• 53:45
  Okay.
• 53:46
  I like how passionate you are about that.
• 53:48
  I read almost half the comic book, old man.
• 53:49
  I did, give me some credit.
• 53:50
  It changed my life, right?
• 53:52
  Maybe it did.
• 53:53
  Maybe.
• 53:54
  Okay, any thoughts on setting healthy boundaries with someone
• 53:56
  that keeps crossing them?
• 53:57
  Yeah, here, okay, let's do this one.
• 53:59
  This is good.
• 53:59
  Boundary versus ultimatum.
• 54:01
  First, check what your version of a boundary is.
• 54:04
  If you are saying, you can't do that anymore to the person, you are
• 54:08
  handing them your buttons to push.
• 54:09
  If you're saying, hey, you can't raise your voice like that.
• 54:12
  I need you to not do that in front of the kids anymore.
• 54:14
  Then the first time that they get mad and they want to try to put you in that
• 54:18
  one down position Then they know that is the button to push so a boundary versus
• 54:22
  ultimatum ultimatum is you can't do that You need to stop doing that boundary
• 54:26
  is if you do that, then I will leave it's a me thing and that's the most
• 54:31
  powerful thing to learn about a boundary now When you're setting boundaries.
• 54:34
  I think initially you would think it's the other way around.
• 54:36
  And that's what tripped me up at first when I was learning about boundaries.
• 54:39
  Because you think of an ultimatum and that's typically a And I told
• 54:42
  them, you can't do that anymore.
• 54:43
  And I'm sitting there thinking, the nurse is oh sure I can.
• 54:45
  Right.
• 54:46
  Yeah, really?
• 54:47
  Like you don't think I can do that?
• 54:47
  I'll do it in 10 minutes from now.
• 54:49
  But the boundary is basically turning it back to you.
• 54:52
  It's a you thing.
• 54:52
  In the healthiest way where it's this is how I Can handle this and
• 54:57
  this is how I can show up in this.
• 54:58
  Yeah sense and then almost leaving it open for them to then Respect that or not yes,
• 55:05
  and then boundary and know that it whether you said it in a good way or a bad way the
• 55:09
  Person that if you are in a position in your relationship where you're trying to
• 55:12
  figure out how to set boundaries They will be pushed just know that Because it's,
• 55:17
  again it's, that's the calling card of the emotionally immature is that if you have a
• 55:21
  boundary, they know what to do with that.
• 55:23
  I know how to, I know how to knock this thing down and put
• 55:26
  you in the one down position.
• 55:27
  So it's almost like they're saying, please give me a boundary, because
• 55:30
  I will push and push and push that.
• 55:32
  Because you're handing them a list of Yeah, but it doesn't mean that it's
• 55:34
  the wrong, it's the right thing to do.
• 55:36
  But just know that there's probably going to be pushback and that's Yeah.
• 55:40
  And then, and then honestly, I think about this all the time too, where think
• 55:43
  through your boundary because make sure it's something that you are willing to do.
• 55:47
  We, you watch parents do this all the time with kids.
• 55:50
  And it's so funny if you do that one more time, we're not going to Disneyland.
• 55:53
  And it's like, you know you're going to Disneyland.
• 55:54
  You have non refundable tickets.
• 55:56
  So now you're just showing your kid that you actually can get
• 55:59
  away with whatever you want.
• 56:00
  So you do have to stand by it if you're going to put it in place.
• 56:04
  Yeah.
• 56:04
  And cause then again, knowing that they'll push, push and push.
• 56:07
  Yeah.
• 56:07
  Okay, we need to speedrun some stuff here.
• 56:09
  Okay, let's do, oh yeah, and then we'll wrap it up, right?
• 56:11
  Instead, watch out for the puzzle on the TikTok screen.
• 56:14
  Wait, was the book called The Happiness Trap?
• 56:15
  Yeah, by Russ Harris.
• 56:16
  Okay.
• 56:17
  The Happiness Trap.
• 56:18
  Are trauma bonds a theory?
• 56:19
  Oh!
• 56:19
  No!
• 56:20
  No, I, go, again, this is one of those, Google, waking up the narcissism, my name.
• 56:26
  I know I have two episodes on it for sure, but the concept of intermittent
• 56:29
  reinforcement, that's, that is the fancy name for trauma bond and it is
• 56:32
  where the person that gives you the reward also delivers you the punishment.
• 56:36
  And it's a trip because it's the way we train like animals and stuff,
• 56:39
  where, okay here's a treat and then also get angry with the person.
• 56:42
  So then what do they, they just want that treat so bad.
• 56:45
  And when you look at the concept of intermittent reinforcement.
• 56:47
  That it's it hits the same area of the brain like a drug and so you watch
• 56:51
  people that when that narcissist or emotionally mature withdraws from
• 56:55
  the relationship and Pulls back their attention or their affection.
• 57:00
  It leaves that other person craving it from them And so then
• 57:02
  they'll do whatever they can to get that To get that attention.
• 57:07
  So very real very real Okay back to Thomas.
• 57:10
  He's five months sober.
• 57:11
  Whoa.
• 57:12
  Nice.
• 57:12
  That is that's big like really that's huge.
• 57:15
  Yeah I hope you're giving yourself props for that because that really is huge.
• 57:20
  And then he said he's confused cause she says she doesn't, or he doesn't call her.
• 57:26
  So maybe, maybe it's time to open up a conversation then with like, I think
• 57:30
  it's fair of you to ask for at least a conversation and approach it as I
• 57:35
  want to give you the space to heal and almost ask her for her boundaries.
• 57:40
  It's like, how can you show up?
• 57:42
  Or how can both of you show up in a way that you'll both be okay with?
• 57:45
  I think that would be fair.
• 57:46
  So if I'm working with you Thomas, for example, because I've got two or three
• 57:49
  Thomas's currently And so they are there.
• 57:52
  We're working on them to stay present, to do the work that they're doing.
• 57:56
  We talk a lot about differentiation where you're trying to have a strong
• 58:00
  but flexible sense of self, not needing somebody else to tell you who you are.
• 58:03
  You got to do, you got to do some really good work on learning how to
• 58:05
  self soothe or calm your own anxiety.
• 58:08
  That'll lead to a grounded response.
• 58:09
  I need to be able to stay grounded, not get too angry or loud and not play small.
• 58:13
  And that's what we're talking about right now, because when you
• 58:15
  start to realize, okay, I'm okay, I've got five months of sobriety.
• 58:18
  I know.
• 58:19
  That's the part where I know I'm okay.
• 58:21
  I know that I'm in a good position.
• 58:23
  Then I'm not going to play small either.
• 58:25
  And then the fourth point of balance of differentiation is that
• 58:27
  it is growth through discomfort.
• 58:28
  I'm taking ownership of my stuff, not projecting it on my spouse, which
• 58:31
  maybe I did when I was more immature.
• 58:33
  And so when you, when you can come from this differentiated place, now you, you
• 58:38
  can ask for things in the relationship.
• 58:41
  Because now I'm not doing it to be manipulative, coercive, controlling,
• 58:44
  or just to get validation.
• 58:46
  Now I know that this is what I think would be best for me and I think
• 58:49
  that we could make this work, so now I'm, I'm putting that out there.
• 58:52
  Now it has to be though, this is the key.
• 58:54
  It does have to be a little bit more outcome independent.
• 58:57
  So I'm saying it, but she still has the right to say, I'm still not ready.
• 59:01
  Right?
• 59:01
  Like I feel like it's just, it's opening up a conversation.
• 59:03
  So you both, so neither of you are in the dark thinking.
• 59:06
  Yeah.
• 59:06
  So that she's not sitting there waiting for you to call and you're.
• 59:09
  sitting there fighting not to call because you're trying to respect that.
• 59:13
  This is a tough spot to be though.
• 59:14
  A lot of the guys I work with one on one, this is what we're dealing with because
• 59:18
  then you can come from this differentiated place and reach out and say, Hey, I would
• 59:21
  love to know if we can begin couples therapy now, or I would like to be able
• 59:25
  to just talk once a week and just, we can talk about just logistics or just things
• 59:30
  that are unrelated to the marriage or But if she says, I don't want to, this
• 59:35
  is where being grounded comes into play.
• 59:38
  It's okay for her to not want to.
• 59:40
  As a matter of fact, I would imagine that's one of those situations where she's
• 59:43
  probably testing a little bit for safety.
• 59:45
  Because if I freak out then, then I'm not safe and that means I'm not
• 59:48
  differentiated, I'm not grounded and I can't calm my own, uh, anxiety.
• 59:52
  And that's why I say that you have, that's the work that you have to
• 59:54
  do when you're working on yourself.
• 59:56
  Because if I now show up and I'm now saying I'm ready and all it takes is
• 59:59
  for her to say, I don't know if I am.
• 1:00:01
  And then you get upset that you did not do the work.
• 1:00:04
  Right.
• 1:00:04
  Yeah.
• 1:00:05
  So yeah, that is a tough spot.
• 1:00:07
  Yeah.
• 1:00:07
  So I hope you're working with somebody that, that knows
• 1:00:09
  what they're doing as well.
• 1:00:11
  That'd be helpful.
• 1:00:12
  Ready?
• 1:00:13
  Yeah.
• 1:00:13
  My husband won't Wait, did you guys read this one?
• 1:00:15
  Wait, no, but can you pause for two seconds?
• 1:00:18
  Of course.
• 1:00:18
  Jessica, the virtual couch is his main podcast.
• 1:00:21
  Yeah.
• 1:00:21
  And then he also has Waking Up to Narcissism.
• 1:00:23
  And then we have one together called The Mind, The Mirror, and Me.
• 1:00:26
  But if you just, even if you, like, if you look up Tony Overbay.
• 1:00:29
  Yeah, and virtual couch.
• 1:00:30
  All of his will come up.
• 1:00:30
  But the virtual couch is the biggest.
• 1:00:32
  That's his main.
• 1:00:32
  Yeah, and then Sydney and I had five episodes of Murder on the
• 1:00:35
  Couch that did phenomenally well.
• 1:00:37
  Yeah.
• 1:00:38
  And then we never did a sixth.
• 1:00:40
  So, there's that.
• 1:00:41
  Lots of episodes to catch up on.
• 1:00:43
  But anyways, go on.
• 1:00:44
  There's like 600 episodes actually.
• 1:00:45
  Yeah, free therapy.
• 1:00:47
  Pretty much.
• 1:00:48
  Okay, Syd.
• 1:00:49
  My husband won't forgive me for small things, and I forgive him for big things.
• 1:00:54
  I feel like there was more.
• 1:00:55
  Oh, and his only excuse to all of it is feeling like I don't respect him.
• 1:00:59
  Sounds like he doesn't respect you.
• 1:01:01
  Amen.
• 1:01:02
  Well said, Syd.
• 1:01:03
  That one, that stuff, okay, admittedly.
• 1:01:06
  Maybe it's just late, late Sunday night talking, but I mean, that, that is the
• 1:01:09
  sign of the immature, and I know that I don't know what their situation is, but
• 1:01:12
  this is the population I work with, and again, if he can project that I don't
• 1:01:18
  like, Yeah, I won't let you get away with these small things, it's the, then, so
• 1:01:22
  you are now in that one down position, and now you are trying to prove yourself
• 1:01:26
  for all of these little small things.
• 1:01:28
  That are fairly insignificant when you know that you are willing to,
• 1:01:31
  yeah, to forgive the bigger things.
• 1:01:33
  And it goes back to that, that the emotionally immature person will just
• 1:01:37
  diffuse their discomfort, their anxiety, their immaturity into the relationship
• 1:01:42
  and that pathologically kind person, you, will then pick that up and I'll
• 1:01:46
  take it and I'll metabolize it and then I will figure out what to do with it.
• 1:01:49
  And meanwhile, he's just back to doing whatever it is that he wants to do.
• 1:01:53
  Missionaries marry very young, grow up in two different cultures.
• 1:01:57
  That's what she said.
• 1:01:58
  That's like an addition.
• 1:01:59
  I believe, yeah.
• 1:02:01
  Yeah, that adds another layer to it.
• 1:02:06
  Especially, did she say young?
• 1:02:07
  Married young?
• 1:02:08
  Yeah, married young.
• 1:02:10
  That part, I go back to what we started with tonight.
• 1:02:12
  Gonna get my hand puppets out here.
• 1:02:14
  So we're two people, and we get married and we're codependent and we're enmeshed.
• 1:02:18
  Because we just, when we first get to know each other, we're
• 1:02:21
  just agreeing on everything.
• 1:02:22
  We can have completely different.
• 1:02:24
  tastes, styles, likes, dislikes, but we're, and I believe again from a
• 1:02:29
  good place, it goes back to if I say I don't like scary movies and then she
• 1:02:35
  wants to date me, if she's she'll say.
• 1:02:37
  Yeah, I don't like him either.
• 1:02:39
  Even if she loves him, because then she's thinking, I don't know, maybe this isn't a
• 1:02:42
  big deal or so you just let you compromise on a lot of things because it just
• 1:02:46
  feels like the relationship is so good.
• 1:02:48
  Then you start going through life and now you experience things, kids, finances,
• 1:02:52
  moving, careers, loss, all those.
• 1:02:55
  And those are the first time you're experiencing those situations as an adult.
• 1:02:58
  And then you are, they are giving you feelings and emotions.
• 1:03:01
  And now when you try to communicate that to your person and your
• 1:03:03
  codependent, you're enmeshed.
• 1:03:05
  You're starting to try to have your experience and that makes this person
• 1:03:08
  feel insecure or their immaturity comes out and then they say things like You
• 1:03:13
  know the death by a thousand cuts stuff.
• 1:03:15
  They're gonna now criticize you and now you're gonna okay You're right and go back
• 1:03:18
  into this enmeshment because what we're supposed to do is become differentiated
• 1:03:22
  Which is where one person ends the other begins but in the middle of that it's
• 1:03:25
  gonna be a fair amount of invalidation for a While so people that immature person
• 1:03:29
  is gonna continually try to get you back into enmeshment Because that's what they
• 1:03:32
  feel, that now they feel whole because they now can, they're in mesh and they
• 1:03:35
  can put you in that one down position.
• 1:03:37
  But what we're trying to do is become two completely interdependent, differentiated
• 1:03:41
  people that have different experiences.
• 1:03:43
  Of course, especially different, they're different genders they're different, maybe
• 1:03:47
  different, come from different places.
• 1:03:48
  Yeah, straight different cultures.
• 1:03:50
  Yeah, so, so of course they're going to have different thoughts
• 1:03:52
  and feelings and opinions.
• 1:03:53
  And so it's the ability to be able to respect those and to really.
• 1:03:57
  Express those that is going to really cause, it's going to help a couple be,
• 1:04:00
  real intimacy is having the courage to know the, you know, to be known by
• 1:04:06
  somebody else and to know that person.
• 1:04:08
  That takes a lot of courage because it's really uncomfortable.
• 1:04:11
  Okay, how many more do you want to do?
• 1:04:13
  We can just do a speed run real quick.
• 1:04:14
  Okay.
• 1:04:15
  Going into therapy, are we allowed to tell what the other person has
• 1:04:18
  done and said to us, or do we just speak about what we have done?
• 1:04:21
  That's a great question.
• 1:04:21
  I'm fine.
• 1:04:22
  I want all the data and I think that this is one of those I think it's
• 1:04:26
  the, I want to just throw the, it into the more comfortable or competent the
• 1:04:30
  therapist is, the more that they can hold space for all of that information.
• 1:04:34
  I think it's a good therapist that is going to let you bring
• 1:04:36
  in whatever you want to bring in, especially early on in therapy.
• 1:04:39
  And if you're going to come in and you want to just be heard about the what
• 1:04:43
  you want to say about the other person.
• 1:04:44
  Then who am I to say you can't do that?
• 1:04:46
  Right, so in a sense, it's whatever you need.
• 1:04:48
  It really, I'm, I'm very comfortable with that.
• 1:04:50
  And that'll lead to others.
• 1:04:51
  I know, that's right.
• 1:04:51
  Like, I feel like it'll all you'll end up doing both things.
• 1:04:53
  Yeah, and I'm not trying to say that if a therapist hears this and they say, I
• 1:04:57
  think that's wrong, it's like, no problem.
• 1:04:59
  I can understand.
• 1:05:00
  It, why one would but it's where I, I want to start from a place where
• 1:05:04
  there's no wrong way to do therapy, especially initially when you're coming
• 1:05:07
  in, because if that's, if it takes a lot of courage to, to go to therapy.
• 1:05:12
  So if you're going to go in there and feel like you're not doing it right, that is
• 1:05:14
  not, that's a, that's the therapist issue.
• 1:05:17
  Like I need you to do it this way to make me feel better.
• 1:05:19
  Yeah.
• 1:05:20
  Or your first job, I guess, is just to show up.
• 1:05:22
  Yeah.
• 1:05:23
  This girl or boy has been commenting a lot, so I want to help him out.
• 1:05:28
  Okay, I'm 34, been in my relationship for 13 years, married for 6, so I need help.
• 1:05:34
  Going into therapy, are we allowed to tell what the other
• 1:05:38
  person has done and said to us?
• 1:05:40
  Absolutely.
• 1:05:42
  There's a lot of stuff.
• 1:05:45
  Or do we just speak about what we have done?
• 1:05:46
  Okay.
• 1:05:47
  And then she said why is the adult still immature?
• 1:05:50
  I mean, I know we're all like that in ways, but full blown.
• 1:05:54
  Can someone who's emotionally immature become more mature?
• 1:05:59
  And Why are we, though?
• 1:06:00
  It's because we weren't modeled emotional maturity.
• 1:06:03
  Oh, and he sits in denial and deflection.
• 1:06:07
  Yeah, and that's this is all so Oh, and Jessica's leaving.
• 1:06:11
  Bye, Jessica!
• 1:06:12
  Oh, bye, Jessica.
• 1:06:12
  This is all normal.
• 1:06:13
  I want to tell this person this is so normal and I'm not saying that in a
• 1:06:16
  way of please, don't worry about it, but just you're okay, you're normal.
• 1:06:19
  And we, the reason I say that we're all immature until we're
• 1:06:21
  not is because we are, because there, we even have blind spots.
• 1:06:25
  I can think that I'm becoming more emotionally mature and one that I've
• 1:06:28
  honestly been, and I think you guys are starting to hear it in the family
• 1:06:31
  more, but I'm realizing I'm 55.
• 1:06:33
  I have a horrible relationship with money and finances because I don't believe
• 1:06:37
  I was necessarily modeled it well.
• 1:06:39
  Not, and I'm not saying that, Oh, my parents, cause they worked hard.
• 1:06:42
  They struggled.
• 1:06:43
  They, they made more of themselves than I think they ever would have imagined.
• 1:06:46
  But I just don't think we ever learned how to, we didn't
• 1:06:49
  communicate about it very openly.
• 1:06:51
  So I don't, I didn't grow up knowing how to budget or, put,
• 1:06:54
  all those kinds of things.
• 1:06:55
  And so it's always just been, okay, we'll just do whatever we want and
• 1:06:59
  I'll try to work harder and make more and, to, to maybe my own detriment.
• 1:07:03
  I only mentioned that because that's an area that I realize now my immaturity.
• 1:07:07
  Because I can tell myself that I just don't, I don't know.
• 1:07:10
  I just don't, I'm not good with money.
• 1:07:11
  That's an immature response.
• 1:07:12
  Yeah.
• 1:07:13
  Cause I can go figure that out.
• 1:07:15
  That's like emotionally mature.
• 1:07:16
  Or if, and I think that's the part where we're all emotionally immature because
• 1:07:20
  there's so many things that we don't know.
• 1:07:22
  And that we don't know that we don't know and we're unwilling to ask for help.
• 1:07:25
  And the immature way to show up with that is just to say, I, that isn't me.
• 1:07:30
  Or, what we'll also say is, I could project, my immaturity and say that, Okay.
• 1:07:34
  Anybody that does well financially, they got, they just got a lucky break
• 1:07:38
  or anybody that is good at saving money.
• 1:07:40
  Well, they probably have like OCD or something, you know, I can do all those
• 1:07:43
  things from an immature standpoint.
• 1:07:45
  So becoming more emotionally mature is learning about who I am and
• 1:07:48
  how I show up in things and what I do to get rid of my discomfort.
• 1:07:51
  and accepting the things that I know and the things that I
• 1:07:53
  don't know that I don't know.
• 1:07:55
  And so that's that whole process of becoming more mature.
• 1:07:57
  So there's probably places that there's blind spots for everybody of things.
• 1:08:01
  Dennis is learning how to budget at 54.
• 1:08:03
  Oh, he got me beat by a year.
• 1:08:05
  I can't even say I'm really learning how yet.
• 1:08:07
  I think I've been using this example for six months now,
• 1:08:09
  so I need to actually do it.
• 1:08:10
  Okay.
• 1:08:10
  Are there stages of grief after infidelity?
• 1:08:13
  Oh yeah.
• 1:08:14
  Like a hundred percent.
• 1:08:14
  Yeah.
• 1:08:15
  That's a tough, we should do a whole.
• 1:08:17
  You're basically losing the.
• 1:08:18
  The person you or losing the version of the person you.
• 1:08:21
  That's a good way to put it.
• 1:08:22
  Thought you knew or thought you were with or 'cause they're doing something
• 1:08:27
  you never thought they would do.
• 1:08:28
  Yeah, we need to do a whole night on this one.
• 1:08:30
  That could be a whole thing because I do, 'cause they, the world of betrayal.
• 1:08:32
  Trauma is really interesting.
• 1:08:33
  I would recommend if you go on the virtual couch, I did a episode
• 1:08:37
  of a podcast with my, one of my associates, Marla Christensen.
• 1:08:42
  Marla is a therapist.
• 1:08:44
  She just became a therapist recently.
• 1:08:45
  She was in a really unhealthy relationship.
• 1:08:48
  She, she's very open about this.
• 1:08:50
  And then she, we, I think we have a really strong conversation around the concepts
• 1:08:54
  of betrayal trauma because no one ever thinks they're going to find themselves
• 1:08:58
  in that situation to begin with.
• 1:09:00
  And so when people get into relationships, they often just say,
• 1:09:03
  if that happened to me, I'm out.
• 1:09:05
  Yeah.
• 1:09:05
  But then when it, when that happens, there's so many more variables
• 1:09:08
  and then it's just not that easy.
• 1:09:10
  And so I just think that that needs a lot of work with somebody that knows how to
• 1:09:13
  help somebody through betrayal trauma.
• 1:09:15
  Oh, that scared me to death.
• 1:09:18
  Okay, so I'll just tell you, let me speed run this really quick.
• 1:09:21
  Cause I, so what I do in my couples therapy when there are, when there's
• 1:09:24
  betrayal is the person wants to come in and typically the person that has been
• 1:09:28
  betrayed just wants They want answers.
• 1:09:31
  They want to know they want just to know everything and here's and I'll I
• 1:09:34
  just I feel so strongly about this That they're thinking okay, if I can just hear
• 1:09:39
  everything then I'll know and then that will make me feel better And I can move
• 1:09:43
  on but then the person that has done the betraying Already feels really pretty bad
• 1:09:49
  most likely and there's obviously there's 75 percent that are really like, oh, no
• 1:09:52
  What did I do 25 percent that are like?
• 1:09:55
  Look, I said, I'm sorry.
• 1:09:56
  That's a you thing.
• 1:09:57
  That's not the good version by the way.
• 1:09:58
  And so the person that's done the betraying, I think so often they're
• 1:10:01
  trying to almost forget about it themselves and they do this thing
• 1:10:04
  that's called a staggered disclosure.
• 1:10:05
  So they tell some, they tell their spouse a little bit of what happened
• 1:10:08
  and then their spouse just says, I need more, I need more, I need more.
• 1:10:11
  And finally they're like, okay, here's more.
• 1:10:13
  And so they're setting up this staggered disclosure.
• 1:10:15
  And so when I get a couple in my office, then I immediately say we have to press
• 1:10:19
  pause because I guarantee that you guys don't know how to communicate effectively.
• 1:10:23
  Because most of us don't anyway, so we gotta stop, we're gonna use my four
• 1:10:27
  pillars of a connected conversation.
• 1:10:29
  We're gonna learn about differentiation, we're gonna kick the can of
• 1:10:31
  disclosure down the road a little bit.
• 1:10:33
  Because the people need to learn how to communicate first.
• 1:10:36
  Because it is that lack of communication and that lack of
• 1:10:39
  connection that most likely played a role in where they're at now.
• 1:10:43
  Which can seem really invalidating at first for the person that was betrayed.
• 1:10:47
  But we'll get there, so please find help for betrayal trauma.
• 1:10:51
  Yeah, anything else?
• 1:10:51
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:53
  I'm trying to get crazy lenses asking a question, but I missed the first part.
• 1:10:58
  I don't know what the first part was, so I just have to repeat it.
• 1:11:00
  But it's something about being scared to drive again.
• 1:11:04
  I think maybe she said something about an accident.
• 1:11:10
  For sure.
• 1:11:12
  I would recommend finding like a trauma related therapy.
• 1:11:15
  So I do a little bit of EMDR.
• 1:11:18
  And so there are certain types of EMDR or it's called our
• 1:11:22
  accelerated resolution therapy or brain mapping or brain spotting.
• 1:11:25
  Or there's some of these things that work a little more with trauma.
• 1:11:29
  And yeah, not, not just talk therapy talk.
• 1:11:32
  And this is where I learned, this is why I finally embraced things like
• 1:11:35
  EMDR talk therapy is amazing and it works because as you're talking through
• 1:11:39
  things out loud to somebody that isn't just your friend or family member.
• 1:11:43
  Because your friend or family member is probably going to
• 1:11:44
  say, Whoa, why'd you do that?
• 1:11:45
  Or I would have done this.
• 1:11:46
  And so then our brain goes back to, Oh, I must, this is
• 1:11:49
  not safe for me to talk about.
• 1:11:50
  So just talk therapy in general, as you're talking through scary things, because we
• 1:11:53
  leave things in our head, they go scary.
• 1:11:55
  It's kind of our default and then the person that is hearing you
• 1:11:59
  is empathizing and it does help.
• 1:12:02
  So that helps over time.
• 1:12:03
  EMDR is a fascinating thing and I am, I will get this wrong, but this is
• 1:12:06
  my memory of how it works is that, okay, when you're a little kid,
• 1:12:09
  you're walking forward and your eyes are scanning left, right for safety.
• 1:12:13
  You're trying to see, am I going to trip on anything or is
• 1:12:15
  there something coming at me?
• 1:12:16
  And over time you do that long enough and your brain skips some steps and
• 1:12:19
  says, okay, if your eyes are moving left, right, left, right, then you must be safe.
• 1:12:22
  I'm drawing a blank on the lady's name, Francine Shapiro.
• 1:12:25
  A long time ago, I had a hypothesis that then, alright if I can get
• 1:12:28
  you to look left, right, left, right, then your brain will stop.
• 1:12:33
  Oh, EMDR is the Yeah, that's the left, right, left, right stuff.
• 1:12:36
  There are people that do I've heard it works.
• 1:12:37
  Yeah, I, I do it.
• 1:12:38
  Yeah.
• 1:12:38
  I've got it, I do it in my office in California.
• 1:12:40
  Like, I had a client and I like Yeah.
• 1:12:43
  And a lot of, a lot of first responders do it.
• 1:12:44
  I worked with a, I, the one of the, before I did EMDR, I worked with a
• 1:12:47
  first responder who they saw some pretty bad things at train tracks and then
• 1:12:52
  they couldn't cross them themselves.
• 1:12:53
  And then they went and did two or three sessions of EMDR
• 1:12:55
  and they were able to do that.
• 1:12:56
  Because then what you're able to do is you're able to talk through
• 1:12:59
  it while your brain is like saying, we're safe, we're safe, we're safe.
• 1:13:03
  And then it helps you like be more calm when you're experiencing
• 1:13:06
  one of those situations.
• 1:13:07
  So what would you recommend if She can't afford therapy right now.
• 1:13:11
  Oh, for the, well the main thing I would do is honestly going to
• 1:13:15
  Google low cost therapy near me.
• 1:13:16
  Because I know in, near my office in Sacramento one of my favorite people,
• 1:13:21
  Darlene Davis, my sensei, she has a, called Hope Counseling Center.
• 1:13:25
  And I mean, they have people that are doing it for darn near free, or look
• 1:13:28
  for sliding scale therapy near you.
• 1:13:29
  Because anybody that's coming out of school needs their internship
• 1:13:32
  hours, and I'm not saying that that means they're bad therapists.
• 1:13:35
  I think a good therapist is called to be a therapist and they're good in the
• 1:13:38
  chair or they're not good in the chair.
• 1:13:40
  And so you can find some amazing therapists that will take
• 1:13:42
  sliding scale payments for five, ten bucks, that sort of thing.
• 1:13:46
  So maybe even some that will do free.
• 1:13:47
  So before you think that all your options are shot because you can't
• 1:13:50
  afford it, please look, look for it and look for sliding scale
• 1:13:55
  or like a nonprofit around you.
• 1:13:57
  And honestly, if you aren't even sure what to do or how to do that,
• 1:14:00
  email me at contact at tonyoverbay.
• 1:14:02
  com and let me know where you live.
• 1:14:04
  And I'll see if I can find somebody pull a string or two if I can.
• 1:14:07
  Yeah.
• 1:14:08
  Did we answer stars?
• 1:14:09
  What stars?
• 1:14:10
  Cause we talked to her last time so I want to answer her again.
• 1:14:13
  Oh, okay.
• 1:14:13
  What'd she say?
• 1:14:14
  She said, Hi again.
• 1:14:15
  I'm done with my husband's yelling and disrespect.
• 1:14:17
  I'm stuck because I'm a stay at home mom.
• 1:14:20
  And then, moving further down, she said
• 1:14:27
  Oh!
• 1:14:28
  Any conversation I try to have with him, he is defensive and I pity him.
• 1:14:33
  It just says pity him.
• 1:14:35
  But I think maybe she meant I pity him.
• 1:14:37
  Okay.
• 1:14:39
  That's it.
• 1:14:39
  Oh, okay.
• 1:14:41
  . And start.
• 1:14:42
  It takes, again, it takes a lot of courage to start to, to acknowledge that
• 1:14:45
  this isn't a relationship I wanna be in.
• 1:14:47
  But as a stay at home mom, I think so often that's just a difficult place
• 1:14:52
  because there are Oh, he wants pity.
• 1:14:54
  Oh, he wants pity.
• 1:14:55
  Sorry.
• 1:14:56
  And that is, so we'll talk about this down the road, but man, that's
• 1:14:59
  where a guy will, I'm just gonna go.
• 1:15:01
  In this scenario, where the guy is, he just wants her to feel bad, and he
• 1:15:06
  thinks that's a way that then it will make him feel better, and it might make
• 1:15:10
  him feel better, but again, he just diffused all this stuff onto her, and
• 1:15:14
  saying, you deal with it, make me feel better, and then, and it leaves her just
• 1:15:18
  feeling hollow, and feeling unseen, and unconnected, but the stay at home mom,
• 1:15:22
  that's tough, because they can be stuck, they can be stuck financially, they can
• 1:15:25
  be stuck and so I know this is not going to sound very empowering right now but
• 1:15:31
  this is where we go back to what we were saying earlier, self care is not selfish
• 1:15:34
  and self care can be just starting to listen to podcasts or starting to read
• 1:15:37
  books and just to start to dream and put your life together because it kind of
• 1:15:41
  goes a little bit into the woo woo, like the manifestation kind of things that
• 1:15:44
  if you're not even thinking about it, thinking about what it, how to get out
• 1:15:48
  of an unhealthy relationship or what's a career that I might have down the road
• 1:15:51
  then it's definitely not going to happen.
• 1:15:52
  Yeah.
• 1:15:53
  And I've worked with enough people that whether it has been a year, two years,
• 1:15:56
  five years down the road where then things just start to fall in place when you're
• 1:16:00
  starting to just recognize that I'm not going to continue to play the games.
• 1:16:04
  I, I am living through, a thousand cuts.
• 1:16:07
  And and so actually if you haven't done this already, reach out to me.
• 1:16:11
  And I have a private women's Facebook group for women who are
• 1:16:13
  in relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic partners.
• 1:16:16
  And that is a great source of support.
• 1:16:19
  And it's And just, I know Jessica just commented, I left after 10 years and
• 1:16:23
  it was the best decision I ever made.
• 1:16:25
  My kids and I are so much happier.
• 1:16:26
  Wow, Jessica.
• 1:16:27
  And I think that's in the group.
• 1:16:29
  That's maybe some of the things Yeah, yeah, so reach, yeah, reach out to me if
• 1:16:33
  you're are going through similar things.
• 1:16:35
  For real.
• 1:16:36
  And there are lots of people in that, in that private group
• 1:16:39
  that just Sit on the sidelines.
• 1:16:41
  Oh.
• 1:16:41
  And then she said, A kind gentleman that loves my kids like his own.
• 1:16:45
  Please know you will find someone.
• 1:16:46
  Aw, that's nice.
• 1:16:47
  Thanks Jessica.
• 1:16:48
  Yeah.
• 1:16:49
  And then this person is gonna message you one with the group.
• 1:16:52
  Okay, good.
• 1:16:52
  Please do.
• 1:16:53
  I'm gonna, I'm gonna screenshot every question that we didn't get to so we can
• 1:16:56
  have questions to start for next time.
• 1:16:59
  Okay.
• 1:16:59
  And I really, yeah.
• 1:17:00
  This one I really want you to answer.
• 1:17:01
  Okay.
• 1:17:02
  Last one.
• 1:17:03
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:17:04
  It's Emma again.
• 1:17:05
  Sorry to ask another question, but how do I confront my
• 1:17:09
  husband about respecting me too?
• 1:17:11
  He thinks he has no reason to respect me.
• 1:17:14
  I don't respect him.
• 1:17:16
  But I'm trying so hard.
• 1:17:18
  Okay, but if he, oh gosh.
• 1:17:20
  Right?
• 1:17:21
  I mean, she needs help.
• 1:17:23
  Well, I go, okay, now I'm just wanting everybody to contact me,
• 1:17:26
  but Emma, will you also email me at contact at tonyoverbay.
• 1:17:29
  com?
• 1:17:30
  Remind me about this.
• 1:17:31
  I want to, uh, contact at tonyoverbay.
• 1:17:34
  com because I just, I really want to send you a couple podcast episodes on
• 1:17:38
  differentiation because one of the first points of balance of being differentiated
• 1:17:42
  is not needing someone else to do it first or because his response is so immature.
• 1:17:48
  And just the fact that he's saying that is cause for you to.
• 1:17:53
  Not have respect for him because, and I'm going to, I'm going to
• 1:17:56
  jump over to the side for a second.
• 1:17:57
  One of my favorite therapists, and I like to call her friend Jennifer Finlayson
• 1:18:01
  five says so often that when a guy will say, well, I want her to desire me, then
• 1:18:05
  she'll say, well, be desirable then.
• 1:18:07
  And I love that concept because it's the same thing.
• 1:18:09
  If I want her to respect me, well then be respectful and be
• 1:18:12
  someone who is worthy of respect.
• 1:18:14
  And it is not done by making someone feel small or less than, and so the
• 1:18:20
  second that he's saying you don't deserve respect, that is one of the
• 1:18:23
  most immature things that he can do.
• 1:18:25
  And this is where I will say, and I've thought about rewriting this
• 1:18:29
  stuff often, there's that concept of, polarity, masculine, feminine, and
• 1:18:33
  Indian culture, Shiva, Shakti, and Asian, yin, yang, I've called it assertive
• 1:18:38
  and nurturing, but It is, I believe it is the job that he needs to provide
• 1:18:42
  emotional safety, emotional consistency, emotional maturity, and that needs to
• 1:18:47
  be this presence so that she feels safe enough to be able to express herself.
• 1:18:52
  And, man, we will talk about this another day too, because she doesn't feel safe in
• 1:18:56
  the relationship and that is why, right now I think her body is keeping the score
• 1:19:00
  when she's like, I don't respect him.
• 1:19:02
  It's because her body's saying, yeah, you've tried for as long as you can and
• 1:19:06
  you're betraying yourself now when you're trying to, okay, I'm going to keep trying
• 1:19:10
  to respect this person that is not very emotionally safe or stable or present.
• 1:19:15
  And so part of the challenge is to start to pull back.
• 1:19:19
  It really is and not need his validation and know that you're okay.
• 1:19:23
  And what's fascinating about that is, it's the push and pull, it's the
• 1:19:26
  pursuer withdrawal dynamic that often when the person in your position
• 1:19:30
  does start to withdraw, now all of a sudden, okay, oh, he's now pursuing.
• 1:19:34
  And that's almost more signs of the immature.
• 1:19:36
  I have so many thoughts on that.
• 1:19:37
  I would love to do a whole episode of that.
• 1:19:39
  MSF will email you.
• 1:19:40
  Okay.
• 1:19:40
  Good.
• 1:19:41
  No, it's like you shouldn't have to do anything to be loved.
• 1:19:43
  You shouldn't have to do anything to be respected.
• 1:19:45
  Those are things that you just deserve.
• 1:19:46
  No, you get that just for existing.
• 1:19:48
  Yeah, and you can do things that take that away.
• 1:19:52
  Exactly, yeah.
• 1:19:53
  By existing you get to be loved and you get to have your worth seen and be valued.
• 1:19:57
  You do.
• 1:19:58
  Period.
• 1:19:58
  Okay.
• 1:19:59
  That was fun.
• 1:20:00
  Thank you.
• 1:20:01
  Contact?
• 1:20:02
  I put it in the thing.
• 1:20:03
  Well, actually it would be nice if people would just go to TonyOverbay.
• 1:20:06
  com and you can email me through the contact form, but while you're
• 1:20:08
  there, sign up for my newsletter that I don't normally write.
• 1:20:11
  But I'm going to, because Sid's going to remind me.
• 1:20:14
  Right, Sid?
• 1:20:15
  That's crazy to ask me to remind you.
• 1:20:17
  I know.
• 1:20:17
  That was kind of funny.
• 1:20:18
  Even as I was saying it, I was like, Mackie, can you remind Sid to remind me?
• 1:20:22
  Emma, we usually do them Sunday nights.
• 1:20:25
  And this will be re uploaded on YouTube, and there's a bunch on YouTube
• 1:20:27
  already, and you should definitely check out our YouTube because
• 1:20:33
  we're being neglected over this.
• 1:20:38
  Do the old humble brag, but I just for fun.
• 1:20:40
  I was laying out that okay the on tik tok that one HSP Video has like a 1.
• 1:20:45
  8 million views and on Instagram.
• 1:20:47
  It's got like 2.
• 1:20:47
  2 million views and I said and on YouTube as 512 County something
• 1:20:54
  that and I just said, okay, but not that I'm bitter about that I am.
• 1:20:57
  Yeah.
• 1:20:58
  Okay.
• 1:20:58
  Thanks, everybody.
• 1:20:59
  Thank you, Mac, for being here.
• 1:21:00
  Always.
• 1:21:01
  For real.
• 1:21:01
  I appreciate you.
• 1:21:02
  Sidney said she'd come next week.
• 1:21:04
  Are you next week, Sid?
• 1:21:05
  Yeah.
• 1:21:05
  Ha ha!
• 1:21:05
  Are we doing the three of us?
• 1:21:07
  Are you, are you modding or are we doing the three?
• 1:21:10
  I can mod.
• 1:21:11
  Oh, I forgot I had this thing on my face.
• 1:21:13
  Yeah, quit touching it.
• 1:21:13
  I know.
• 1:21:14
  I just wanted to scratch it right there.
• 1:21:15
  Gaping wound.
• 1:21:16
  It's a gaping wound.
• 1:21:17
  Alright, uh, don't run into walls.
• 1:21:21
  Amen.
• 1:21:22
  Amen.
• 1:21:22
  Thanks, everybody.
• 1:21:23
  Alright, Sid.
• 1:21:24
  Cancel that.
• 1:21:25
  Get us out of here!