Latest / The Virtual Couch / Universal Lessons from Grief: Ashlee Boyson, Author of One Day - A Child’s Journey Through Grief and Loss

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Universal Lessons from Grief: Ashlee Boyson, Author of One Day - A Child’s Journey Through Grief and Loss · The Virtual Couch

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Music.
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Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of The Virtual Couch.
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I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
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I am drawing a blank on, I don't know if we were, we had two,
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So today's episode, this is easily one of my favorite guests of all time, Ashley Boysen.
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If you're not familiar with her, she came on Waking Up to Narcissism a couple
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of years ago. I believe it was episode 56.
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And her story is incredible.
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Like literally Dateline NBC, incredible. We even talk a little bit in the interview
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about Dateline's Keith Morrison and her interactions with him.
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And wonderful spoiler alert, he is just as awesome as I had hoped he would be.
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Ashley is seriously a remarkable woman whose story demonstrates resilience, wisdom, humor, heart.
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If you're not familiar with her, let me just set the stage a little bit.
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Imagine this, you're 28 years old and you have five children,
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including a six-week-old baby.
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One night, detectives arrive at your door, I think it was at one or two in the
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morning, with news that changes everything. Now, you'd already been...
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Thinking that something's been off in your marriage for a while,
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but you just weren't really sure.
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But you find out your husband has been murdered.
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And you also discover that he was having an affair and he was actually murdered
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by his affair partner's husband.
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In an instant, you're a widow, you're a single parent, and you are faced with
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rebuilding your entire world from scratch.
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There's a moment in this interview where Ashley gets so real about what her
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true thoughts were in that very moment when she found out on the porch in the
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middle of the night that I honestly think is one of the single most,
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you are the only version of you ever and you are living in that moment.
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And so whatever moment that is right then and there, that is what you're thinking.
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That's what you're feeling. So check that out. There's no way that you can anticipate
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what you would do or think or feel in a moment.
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So just giving yourself grace and stepping back and just saying,
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check this out. That is what I was thinking. That is how I was feeling.
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And when it gets to that point in the interview, you will absolutely know what I'm talking about.
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So after she discovered this tragedy, this was back in 2011.
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What followed was a journey through grief and healing and ultimately a transformation.
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Now, since her appearance on Waking Up to Narcissim, she's continued to do all
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kinds of work, helping others navigate their own paths a lot through grief.
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But she has other programs on her website.
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She works a lot in focusing on helping parents guide their kids through loss,
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because that's something that she knows all too well.
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So today we're going to discuss her newest book. It's called One Day,
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A Child's Journey Through Grief and Loss.
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And it's a uniquely powerful resource that Ashley Rowe and her daughter Boston
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provided the illustrations.
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And what makes this book just so special, and we talk about it in the interview,
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is so many things in its approach, but the illustrations themselves are deliberately
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without facial expressions and they're without color, which admittedly I noticed
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at first, I just didn't think much about it.
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But Ashley shares that the choice to illustrate it this way was so that you
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could create space for children to project their own emotions into the scenes
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of grief rather than being told how they should feel.
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And when she explains that, it's another one of these powerful moments because
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you all of a sudden feel like the book just unlocks a whole different level
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of emotional awareness and depth.
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And it's just one of the examples of her deep understanding of grief and emotional
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processing, which makes sense because of what she's been through.
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In this conversation, we're going to talk about how Ashley's personal tragedy
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became a catalyst for helping others.
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She truly took a moment that no one could ever expect, anticipate,
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or want, and then making something so powerful of the experience instead of
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disappearing into the shadows.
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And we're going to also talk about why allowing children to experience their
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genuine emotions is so crucial to healing and growing moving forward.
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We may even think that we're providing space for our kids to feel because we
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are starting to talk about emotions now.
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I would question, I don't want to cause anyone to feel any shame.
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There are just some wonderful things I think we'll bring awareness to so that
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you can even show up better to be able to help your kids feel their emotions
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and experience life just as them and not having to be caretakers for somebody else.
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And we also talk about the complex, sometimes very contradictory feelings that
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can arise simultaneously during grief, but really in any situation.
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And Ashley talks a lot about practical ways to support grieving with our kids
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without imposing our own discomfort, without diffusing our own emotions onto
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our kids, which we actually do, I think, far more often than we think.
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And in my opinion, how that creates little people pleasers who don't really
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know how to tap into their own emotional experiences.
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Now, in addition to Ashley being an author, she is a mother of seven now.
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She's remarried. She's a widow survivor. She's a foot zoner.
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We'll get into that a little bit. She's hilarious. I hope you can feel my energy
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for all the tragedy that she's been through. She's so fun and infectious.
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And when we talk about foot zoning in particular, there's some really funny
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things that she shares about that.
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But she's somebody that's really learned how to transform her own pain into purpose.
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And her laugh is infectious. I think her insights are profound.
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And then her ability to discuss heavy topics with both gravity and levity and
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light, I think is a gift that you'll experience throughout the conversation.
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This is definitely one that I would highly encourage you if you are just listening
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to this on any of your audio podcast platforms, go find this one on YouTube.
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And while you're there, please, I guess it's a fifth solid now,
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hit that subscribe button. That would be wonderful.
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Go see Ashley, watch her in the interview because again, smile,
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laugh is very infectious.
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So whether you're navigating grief yourself, you're supporting somebody who
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is, or you're simply interested in developing a deeper emotional IQ,
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especially with kids. I think this interview is just full of wisdom and I think
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it really transcends the topic of more than just loss alone.
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So join me as we welcome back Ashley Boyson and we dive into a conversation
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about allowing space for all the emotions, the healing power of authenticity
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and how we can better support both ourselves and children through some of life's
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most difficult transitions.
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Witty hilarious anecdote that i might edit out was you
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were only like you were like one minute past one and i
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was like on amazon and i was about to buy something and
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so then i just thought okay if you don't show up soon then
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i could blame you for me buying the thing because i would
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be gaslighting and i was looking at the notes of the first time you were on
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the show episode 56 waking up to narcissism and i
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forgot this part but i was telling you that you had some technology glitch
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and it turned out that my microphone was off so i was gaslighting
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you there so i thought that would only be appropriate if i have
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tools now i won't let you do that okay oh yes
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exactly i'm very proud of you okay i'll do an
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immature thing and i'll take ownership for you getting the tools i'm sure you
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learned them from all my podcasts that's right that's right okay all right okay
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okay at least you know exactly ashley i always want to say your name with a
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french accent do you know this do people say that boy song wouldn't that be
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cool let's do it okay all right Welcome, Ashley,
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a little two-time Waking Up to Narcissim guest.
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I want to run this one on the virtual couch as well because of what we're talking
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about today, but welcome back to the podcast.
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It's so good to see you. Thank you. So good to be here.
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Okay. I thought about this. I'll probably do a fancy intro before we get to
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what people are hearing right now.
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But this is so wild. Before we get to your book that we're going to talk about
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today, which is wonderful. And I have so many questions and thoughts.
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Here's what I read in the intro last time you were on. And it was directly from
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your Amazon page of your book. And you said, I am a victim.
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I mean, it's so wild, Ashley, to say this part. I'm a victim of murder through a series of events.
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And by two shots of a gun, I was made a widow at the age of 28 with my youngest child to six weeks old.
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I'm a victim of infidelity. I felt unlovable. I've felt rejected.
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I've had days in my life that I wasn't sure I would take a breath again,
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let alone be able to raise my five children.
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But it goes with that. But then you start talking about the hope and being a
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survivor. And then we start with an intro like that.
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And then at some point, we're just laughing in the podcast.
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Then there was emotions. And that's what I just love about you.
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You just encapsulate every feeling and vibe and emotion.
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So maybe for those that have not heard the earlier episode, can you tell us
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about your story before we get to your book?
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Absolutely. I guess my story, we all have stories from when we're little,
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but the thing that really got me on a path of figuring out who I was again was
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in 2011, my husband was having an affair that I didn't know about.
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And one night I met at the door, a bunch of detectives that told me not only about the affair,
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but the husband had come with a
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gun and my husband had died in this other woman's arms with
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two shots of a gun a bullet in his forehead and one
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in his heart and that was my defining
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moment we all have defining moments in our life but sorry
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i just said that really fast that's a big story and i know you'll
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go find the other podcast to hear more yeah exactly i'll link that but yeah
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um but that's where the brokenness that you just talked about began but it hadn't
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began there but i was really fully aware of it in that moment and over the course
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of the last what is it for almost 14 years now,
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I've just been on a journey to not only heal a
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Me and my five kids who went through that, but God has placed me in circumstances
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to be able to share his light to help others know that they're not alone and
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to find their way out of their pits and their broken moments that they think
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they're never going to survive.
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And I will. I'll link to that podcast. And you have courses for helping people
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through infidelity, being a widow, things that I think are you can't teach something
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that you haven't really been through and you've been through a lot.
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You have a lot of things that you can help people with. What do you enjoy helping people with the most?
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Probably teaching them how to interpret and help their children through grief.
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That's just kind of become a passion, especially more recently.
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Watching my kids go through all the stages now and have older kids.
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And I've seen what works and I've seen what doesn't. So I am really passionate
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about helping parents focus on the things that do work and navigating that part.
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I'm curious, though, that you deal with a lot of these heavy things when you're
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coaching people or helping people.
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And I get asked often as a therapist if I bring it home or if it has an impact
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on me. And I think good old male brain, I can compartmentalize.
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There are some that really get through to me, but I just really enjoy being
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able to be there and help somebody.
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I would imagine that you're what I call the pathologically kind.
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And maybe would you consider yourself highly sensitive? Or, I mean,
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are you in that camp? Absolutely. I've had a really...
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Figure out ways to not disconnect because you have to be connected to these
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people when you're doing, I'm a foot zoner now too.
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So I'm always working with people and trying to help them get through their emotions.
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So when I first started even just responding to emails, when my blog first came
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out, it would white me out for days. I'd read these people's stories and it's
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almost like, okay, I'll take it on. I'll be their savior. I got this.
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I don't want them to feel it. But so I've just had to learn to,
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with different things, learn to have my armor up and still leave space for people
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because I've gone to that extreme too. Like I can't let anybody in because it's scary.
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It's hard to feel what other people feel and not. So yeah, it's been a journey
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definitely to figure out how to not take it on.
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Hey, can we spend a couple minutes on foot zoning? Because that's one of those
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that I don't even know what I don't know about it. And I'm so curious about it.
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And can I start with maybe what a lot of people would be curious about?
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Sure. Okay. What do you do when the feet are kind of nasty? Are there dirty
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feet? What do you do? I have a little thing of baby wipes and I'm like, okay.
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And if that doesn't work, I'm like, let's start with the foot soap.
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Get off. Okay. I have to tell you, my wife and I at our church, people did a trek.
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The kids did a trek one year long ago. We were the mom, pa, three days,
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no showers, the dusty roads and stuff.
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And we decided that we would try to just do this really incredible ceremony
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and wash their feet. and we got hot water from the mess hall or whatever.
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And we had bought all these hummus stones and these lotions and stuff.
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And it was a very cool moment. But man, I had to detach from the fact that I
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was washing all these dirty feet.
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Yeah, you know, kind of gross, actually. It's funny because people are like,
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oh, you're comfortable with feet. I'm like, not at all.
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But somehow I have this gift and I'm really good at what I do.
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And I don't even look at it as feet after a while.
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I'm looking for the reflexology points. and okay now here's the part i don't
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know and i have the most ticklish feet in the world so first of all would that
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be a problem and then but what is foot zoning,
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It'd be a problem until you realized how great it was. And then you'd be like,
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oh, I don't have to close your feet anymore. I need to do this. I need to relax.
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So foot zoning is like the ancient art of reflexology where every part of your
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body is connected somewhere to your feet.
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It kind of takes that and adds a little bit of crack to it. And so it's like
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balancing out the spiritual, emotional, physical.
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And what's the other one? There's four bodies. I know. I'm all making these
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jokes. Musical. Balancing all four bodies. Okay.
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Physical, emotional, spiritual. Okay, all four. So it helps just identify trapped
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emotions and areas in your body where you're storing them.
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And just really helps people to identify. Because a lot of times we're like,
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oh, no, I don't feel anger. And we just push it back down.
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So it shows up in your body and then it shows up on your feet.
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And so my job is to just help people figure out how to get that out instead
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of carrying it for the rest of their lives.
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First of all, it's so good to talk to you again. This is it.
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Last time we were interviewing you, we were talking about heavy topics, but then you're funny.
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It just makes it so much easier to talk about these things. So I have a foot
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massager that I put my feet in several times a day at home.
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And I do think that that is one of the most wonderful things in the world.
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So is that kind of reflexology doing anything for me other than just making
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me feel good? I'm sure it is. Any movement of your feet, just getting the lymph
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system going, I think is great.
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Yeah. Okay. No, I love it. And I really, I interviewed a friend of mine,
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her name's Lana Garvin. And we were talking about the woo-woo,
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and she was saying that when she first learned woo, and then now she's into
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woo-woo, and I think I'm at woo and a half, and I really love it.
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All the things that I just don't know, that I don't know, that I'm open to,
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that I just, I don't know. I love that stuff.
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Were you always someone that was kind of into the woo?
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Yeah, I was more woo starting out. And then my grandma was really woo-woo,
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and I saw her help a lot of people.
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And my dad's a chiropractor and he's really into the more natural things.
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And then I had a lot of bad experiences with some medication,
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like right after the murder trial that made me feel suicidal for an entire night.
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And I laid in bed. I'm like, I just prayed the whole time. I'm like,
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Heavenly Father, I know this isn't real. I know it has to be the medicine.
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They said it could be, and I never took it again, but I'm like, I need to heal.
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And I didn't know how exactly how that was going to work and so I tried all
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different avenues and foot zoning really helped me during I think we talked
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about last time my daughter was at an eating disorder facility yeah yeah that's
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when I really got into I had a lady foot zoning me and then wow.
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Through i had covid really bad a few years later and that
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really helped more than any of the medication so i've
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just become more woo woo maybe even three woos just
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there's gonna say our bodies know what to do we just
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need to help support our bodies to figure out and
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shift some of our beliefs that everything has to be healed by a pill or something
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and and some things do but yeah well it's funny actually i just mentioned this
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briefly on a podcast a little while ago i was going to keep it all secret because
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I want to ignore it, that it will go away. But I have a herniated disc in my back.
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I actually meet with a spinal surgeon tomorrow, but I don't want to go that
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route. And so, I'm reading this book called Back in Charge.
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And it's more of a spine surgeon who said that he had a bad spinal surgery and
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this chronic pain, and he learned to heal it through expressive writing and
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changing up the pain pathways. And I am loving the concept.
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I mean, if you're throwing three woos out there, I think I'm going to be solidly
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in the two, give me another week or two.
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And I really, I like it. I feel like I'm able to do things, take action on behalf of my own body.
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And I'm really enjoying that, even though I still have this pain as well right now.
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Well, I hope you answer soon. Yeah, me too. Thank you.
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Okay. Let's get to your book because there's a couple of things in the beginning
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when I'd reached out to you and just saying, okay, you want to come on and talk about the book?
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I love the idea, the story. I'd love for you to talk about that.
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But I had immediately bought the kindle version and there's just
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a part in the beginning that just it's odd i almost shared
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this with you then but i realized even though i've been a therapist 20 years
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starting to really understand how we even the best of parent
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would tell their kids when they express emotions don't worry
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about it it's not a big deal calm down and that we
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were just in in a sense teaching our kids that their emotions were
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wrong and and eventually instead of externalizing their
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emotions they have to internalize them and now you need somebody to tell you
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how to think or how to feel or that it's okay yeah okay well that's okay though
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that part we're fine with all right yeah but and so talk about the book one
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day child's journey through grief and loss you are the author and your daughter boston is the artist,
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And so maybe first tell us about how the book came about. Tell me about the
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book and then I'll get into that part that I just think is so wonderful in the beginning.
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Okay. So one day, it's called one day, my son who didn't ever know his dad because
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he was a tiny little baby.
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The movie Onward came out and it's about a boy who's on a journey to try to
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be able to connect with his dad who had passed away because he never met him,
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but the older brother did.
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And my son related so much to this character that it brought out emotions that
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he didn't even know were inside of him. And he spent years in counseling.
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But one day as I was listening to, sometimes I'd go at his counseling appointment
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with him. A lot of times I would, because he was pretty young.
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I was listening to the words that he was saying and my kids were saying other
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things and people were emailing me with other things.
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This idea just came to me and this was like, what
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six years ago probably yeah and i
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went home that night and i wrote this book in like
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three minutes like it just did you really everybody's like
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i told you i take on everybody's stuff yeah so everybody's pain
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i've never lost a parent but i've assisted so many people who have and i've
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been with these children who have and all their words and all their confusion
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and all their grief just came out in this book so i had it in a drawer kind
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of forgot about it i was like someday i'm going to do something with that.
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And then when Boston was in the eating disorder facility, I'm like praying my
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guts out. How do we get this girl to see her worth?
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I know she's been through a lot and I know that this plays a role in what she's going through.
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And I just kept getting this feeling, tell her to draw for this book.
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So I sent her the book and she said every time she would draw,
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she would just be bawling.
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And it was always pictures of her dad and her or her brother and And just people
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that she loved and it connected her to us. And it was during COVID,
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so we couldn't ever go see her.
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And it just became kind of like a step in her healing.
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And then we got busy, kind of forgot about it. And she was in a really bad situation
20:34
this summer that she needed to get out of.
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And the same answer came, tell her to finish the book, send her some pictures,
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say, boss, I need you to draw these.
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And she got out of this bad situation and she finished the book and here we are.
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So it's like it was my healing and my daughter's healing combined with all these
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words that so many people had shared about their experience of losing.
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I made the book more, it could be an older brother that they lost or a grandparent.
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So it's just an older person you love that you've lost.
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Okay. What I love about that. And first of all, Boston, if you ever listened
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to this, it's the, I love the way she draws.
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I love her style and I'm so curious. And I like that you just said that I did
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feel like it's such a, I don't want to overuse the word muse because I found
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myself thinking of even people that I have lost. I haven't lost a parent.
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And so that's funny you said that because I caught myself thinking that.
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Whose idea was it to, and I'm going to read this part because this is so good.
21:27
I just love this, Ashley.
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You say, okay, this book is meant to hold space for children wherever they are
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in their healing journey without color or faces.
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Children can imagine that space without firing the neurons in their brain that
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tell them what they are feeling through what they see.
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That part is beautiful. So, if you're looking to watch on YouTube,
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it's in black and white and then the faces are blank.
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So, whose idea was that? Because that that just touched
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me that was years of me in a utah
21:54
state i studied child development so that was just
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i don't know it just came to me as she was drawing she started
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doing faces and i'm like hold on hold on because i'm kind of an empath and if
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i look at someone crying like i have to cry my my body tells me i'm sad and
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i just wanted kids to be able to look at it and think like where am i right
22:14
now because in this picture she could be super mad.
22:18
Because that's an emotion it's okay to feel when you're at a funeral of your person you love.
22:23
She can be crying her face off. But I wanted them to be able to create that
22:28
when they talk to their mom after they read the book and say what they were
22:31
feeling in that picture instead of being told.
22:33
And then same thing with color, as you learn about like certain foods even are
22:36
supposed to evoke emotion and the color of different things.
22:40
So I just didn't want any element of the book to be something that was created
22:46
to make them feel a certain way.
22:48
Okay. I love it. I feel safe to make some jokes with you. Absolutely.
22:53
Have you ever watched those living scriptures videos and some of the guys have
22:57
giant noses, which that becomes so distracting because they're just,
23:01
they're so not the same size as other people's noses.
23:04
And then I had someone point out one time to me that there's a meme out there
23:07
somewhere that shows that the person, the more wicked they are,
23:10
the more colors they have in their hat.
23:12
And so I just thought that was funny. So, I don't know what the nose part is,
23:16
but the hat part, then you notice you're becoming very judgmental if they have
23:20
a very colorful hat. We avoided that with your book. Yeah, right?
23:24
Yeah, no. Okay. And then I just felt very connected or seen,
23:28
as we say in the business, because this is literally, I think I'd probably put
23:31
this in a podcast in some way, shape, or form. Then I reach out to you.
23:35
Then I get the book. And then it says, this is part you said,
23:37
when children are healing, it's important not to tell them how they feel,
23:40
but to support them in what they're feeling.
23:43
And then you say the color can evoke memories or create a particular goal in
23:47
what someone should feel as they read.
23:49
Facial expressions can evoke empathy and a child can connect more to what the
23:52
person in the picture is telling them to feel rather than what they're actually feeling.
23:56
We choose to leave both these elements out of the book to encourage the reader
23:58
to embrace their journey and where they are learning the emotions that come with grief.
24:02
And I felt like the more I was learning about differentiation and think everything's
24:05
a me thing that even, again, I go back to a good parent is still saying they're
24:11
offloading their discomfort onto their.
24:13
Kid without really meaning to of, hey, just think of it this way,
24:18
or that isn't what this person meant.
24:20
Or so again, negating that person's feelings to make them feel better.
24:23
So a lot of, there's a good version of a parent that is telling that person
24:27
how they should feel in this situation or what they need to do.
24:31
And so I just love that. I feel like that's the part that's been missing in
24:35
childhood is just, how do you feel that curiosity? It's hard enough to see it
24:39
with adults as a couples therapist.
24:41
And this is maybe something where you're saying, yeah, No doubt,
24:44
Tony, you're the therapist.
24:44
You should have thought about that a long time ago. But is that something that
24:47
you've been good at your whole motherhood life?
24:51
Oh, definitely not my whole motherhood for sure. I mean, a parent in their own
24:54
grief, this isn't going to come natural.
24:57
And that's what I'm hoping this book helps them go, oh, okay,
25:01
I'm not messing up, but I can try this other way and let's just see how it feels.
25:05
Because I remember so many times when my kids would come to me sad and I was in the anger.
25:10
Like anger was my safe place because the choices that got him killed,
25:15
I didn't have as much empathy for the man that I absolutely loved and had this
25:20
family with. Anger felt way more safe.
25:22
So when they would come to me with, I feel sad, I miss dad, and I have that anger pit in my stomach.
25:29
Luckily, I had learned enough about child development that I never looked at
25:33
him and said, your dad's a piece of crap. I'm going to tell you,
25:35
you know, luckily, but that's the only thing that kept me from that was the
25:39
knowledge of knowing that it was going to hurt them because they're half him.
25:43
So, yeah. So for me, knowing that there's parents who are stuck in that place of anger or, you.
25:51
I don't know, whatever their emotion is, it's really hard to allow a kid to
25:55
feel when they say, I'm sad. What are you sad about?
25:57
Put your shoes on. We're going, we're getting out of the house. We're going to march.
26:00
Whatever it is that you're coping with can really affect the way that your kid
26:04
feels safe to bring his emotions to you, but also can really affect the way
26:09
that they allow themselves to feel.
26:11
Because if they're not allowed to feel sad when they're little kids,
26:13
especially about a person they love that died, they're going to really struggle
26:17
being sad. And usually it's going to be replaced by anger and they're going
26:21
to have anger problems at school and they're going to be getting in trouble.
26:23
So really getting to the core of what the emotions are is what a parent's role
26:28
is not to try to prevent sadness.
26:32
And that was one that I wished like, oh, no, no, we're not sad.
26:34
We're going to march. We're going to go. Let's go to Disneyland.
26:36
Let's go do something. Yes.
26:37
But that doesn't take away the pain of a child that just went through something hard.
26:42
No, it's just bad. Like they bury it and they even feel like,
26:45
OK, I guess it's not OK to feel this way. And now we start dipping into that.
26:49
What's wrong with me? I shouldn't feel this way.
26:51
I'm being told that I just need to focus on the positive. I just need to be
26:55
told that at least I have these certain things. Or what about my parent?
26:59
They're saying, well, how do you think I feel about that? And I just think we
27:01
just don't recognize all the times that we are communicating to stuff your feelings and emotions.
27:06
And it's really fascinating when I will get a couple or maybe just an individual
27:10
that starts to really sit and recognize their emotions, where they feel them.
27:14
To feel them in different places, their chest, their stomach, their head, their neck.
27:18
And I swear when you finally get someone to say, all right, I'm going to allow my emotions to come out.
27:23
They just bum rush the person. It's almost like they say, okay,
27:26
this might be our only shot.
27:27
So here comes everything, childhood, adolescence, everything,
27:31
because we might not ever get out again.
27:33
And so when you were going through that, would you have big emotions often?
27:38
Were they uncontrollable? Would you shove them down? What was that like for you?
27:42
For myself or for my kids? Yeah, yeah. For yourself.
27:44
Oh, I was a stuffer and a marcher and I can't let everybody know that I'm not
27:49
feeling strong. So I would pretend to be strong and I didn't even know how to
27:54
ask for help. It was just like, oh, I got this.
27:56
I'm going to strap my kids to my back and I'm going to march the hell out of
27:59
here and we're not looking back.
28:01
So, but everybody's different. Some parents say I couldn't get out of bed.
28:05
Some kids say, my parent kept saying, well, at least he's not sick anymore.
28:09
He died, but I'm so grateful.
28:11
And the kid's not ready to be grateful. The kid doesn't know about the pain
28:15
that the parent, whatever it was, you know?
28:16
So yeah, just really focusing on, tell me about what you're feeling.
28:22
Tell me about what this looks like. What color does it look like?
28:25
Where in your body does, do you feel that emotion?
28:28
You know, just asking the questions that help them identify so that they can
28:32
be in tune with themselves and create a sense of themselves and also get confidence again,
28:37
because these big losses for a kid can
28:40
really take away the confidence of who they are or
28:43
it was it my fault just our very existence we
28:46
question because something happened and was it
28:49
my fault i was born and now he's gone you know whatever i
28:52
appreciate you saying that because i find that one fascinating when even parents
28:55
go through a divorce or a kid's been a child of divorce that even if they know
29:00
even if they know as an adult that that literally wasn't their fault if you
29:03
really sit with that for a minute though i can almost always hear someone and
29:07
say, I mean, but I wasn't the best kid.
29:10
If I would have probably been a little bit better, if I would have gotten better
29:12
grades or maybe my parents wouldn't have been as upset.
29:15
So they're even trying to tell me, I mean, I know it wasn't all my fault,
29:18
but I probably could have done things better.
29:19
I know it's interesting because in one sense, we can say that is that part of
29:23
us that since I'm the only one that knows what it feels like to be me,
29:25
that the world does revolve around me.
29:27
So I probably played a bigger role in that than everyone realizes.
29:31
It's fascinating. So you were a stuffer and a marcher. And then did you have a
29:34
moment where all of your emotions just hit you hard
29:37
and came out it was years and years
29:40
later i went through a really bad marriage and when i remarried the third time
29:46
you never think you're gonna say that but i do have to say it i was like in
29:50
this safe place with a steady person and a partner who wanted to do everything
29:54
with me and it was like my body was like no,
29:58
Nope. That's when I finally slowed down enough and a lot of things came out.
30:04
And then when I was pregnant and the last time I was pregnant, this happened.
30:07
And it just, it was like, I got to start over a healing process that I never
30:12
began fully. I just shoved and tried to hide and it all came out then.
30:17
And that's the part we don't know when it's going to show up.
30:20
Like we think, oh, I avoided that one. I didn't even have to face it.
30:23
But you're going to whether you choose to or your body makes you slow down enough
30:28
you're going to have to face the grief that happens in your life absolutely
30:33
and it's wonderful that you had a husband at that point that was he was up for
30:37
that task to provide that safety that space.
30:41
Totally i i don't know if i ever told this one i still don't know what this
30:44
one was all about but there was a time i wasn't a therapist yet i was in the
30:47
computer forensics market i'm at a trade show in Lake Tahoe.
30:50
I'm at a Safeway. I go to figure out how much something costs.
30:54
I run it through a scanner. And one of the workers came over and told me,
30:57
that's not for scanning for prices. That's for purchasing.
31:00
And I lost my mind. And I don't know where that came from. And I've never done that again.
31:05
And it's so funny. The therapist in me is saying, what was it about that chocolate
31:08
bar, that donut, and my lack of knowledge for the price that I had to then,
31:12
it just, everything came out.
31:13
And I ended up apologizing to the lady because I felt like I had a moment.
31:16
And to this day, I just think, okay, that was something that I had been packing
31:19
away for a long time, or it was a very expensive donut. I'm not really sure.
31:23
That might've been it too.
31:25
Maybe it was. Maybe that price just threw me.
31:29
Yeah. There's a couple of things in the book and then I want to make sure we have plenty of time.
31:33
Man, there's so much good stuff. Actually, if I would have known that one day
31:35
you would be gone, I would have spent more time showing you how much you meant to me.
31:38
I would have given you 10 more kisses every night. I would have held you tight
31:41
and I wouldn't have let you go.
31:43
I find myself often thinking, what if...
31:47
The people close to me aren't here tomorrow, but then all of a sudden my anxious
31:51
attachment will kick in and I can feel a lot.
31:53
But when you were writing that part, have you had those thoughts and feelings as well?
31:57
Totally. Well, and I saw my kids looking back and like, what if we would have
32:01
done this different? What if we would have?
32:03
But I definitely, I think that was my biggest struggle is I thought,
32:07
even as an adult who knows better, I thought this has to be my fault.
32:11
If I would have been a better wife, he wouldn't have been cheating on me.
32:14
If I would have been, you know, and we just, we go back a lot.
32:17
But that what I've found is that being stuck there causes a lot of depression
32:22
and a lot of not being able to move forward.
32:25
But then we have the other extreme where we look too far forward and we're like,
32:29
well, what what if everybody dies tomorrow and we never fully live because we're
32:33
so worried about, well, I don't even want you to go on that trip. I don't want you to.
32:36
And we stifle ourselves and our families to move forward because it's scary.
32:42
I've been there, too. I've been on both extremes. So, yeah, in the book,
32:47
I hope what the outcome is, is people realize it's okay. I don't need to shame
32:52
myself for looking back. Yeah.
32:54
And I don't need to shame myself when I get scared about what's next,
32:58
but I can be present here and I can be safe right here in this moment.
33:03
And that person that I love can still be with me in this moment and helping
33:07
me down the path that's going to lead me to the best place.
33:10
And you convey that very well. There's a page that says, they say one day it'll feel like a bad dream.
33:15
And I love how you say, I hope not, because that means one day I might forget how much I miss you.
33:19
And I think when somebody is trying to say something kind, it's so fascinating
33:23
to see that what that could mean to a kid that could terrify them. The internal conflict.
33:28
And my neighbor, actually, I gave her this book because her kids had lost their grandma recently.
33:35
And she said, after they read it, they talked for like two hours.
33:38
And there were things that she had told her kids, like, you'll see them someday.
33:42
They thought it meant someday she's coming back through this door.
33:45
And because of the book, she said they were able to talk about it.
33:48
And oh, no, someday means this.
33:50
And identify what these sayings we say as adults, we don't realize our kids
33:54
are internalizing them way different than what we actually mean.
33:58
She's like, we believe that we're going to see them when we die.
34:01
But her kids were like, oh, grandma's coming back anytime.
34:05
So she said it was really cool. It would just open a door for them to have all these conversations.
34:10
You know, what's interesting about that is, I have to get permission from my
34:14
daughter to share this part, but, you know, she's opened up about how when she was younger,
34:19
even things like her baptism day or those things actually were pretty scary
34:23
because here you are, this eight-year-old little kid, and you're being told that,
34:26
okay, now all of your sins are washed away, and now this spirit is going to
34:31
fall upon you and be with you all the time. And then my wife and I were attending a baptism.
34:36
And when you hear it from that angle, we were trying to make eye contact and
34:39
see, was the little girl terrified or she was sitting there like,
34:43
okay, that sounds kind of scary.
34:44
And we're sitting there like smiling, like this will be great.
34:48
It's so true. It is. It's so wild to hear it that way.
34:51
Okay. And then there's, okay, here it is. Grief makes us feel all different
34:54
emotions, sometimes at the same time.
34:56
And that is a hard concept. I know for people to understand,
35:00
I deal with that a lot with the adults I'm working with, where they can be mad,
35:04
it's whole object relations, you know, the ability to view something as a whole
35:08
object and I can be mad at it and I can like certain things about it and I can be frustrated.
35:12
And sometimes I'm helping people navigate their faith journey,
35:14
that can be their view with like their religious institution or with their partner or their kid.
35:19
Or how do you teach a kid that though, that they can have all those emotions?
35:23
I love that line, but have you had some success with that?
35:26
Yeah, even kids that start to feel guilty because they're happy in a moment
35:31
and they like start to hold back talking about, OK, what are you holding back
35:36
with right now? We're at this birthday party. You're having fun.
35:39
And something triggered the I lost my dad or they want to watch a movie that
35:43
was dad's favorite movie or whatever it was.
35:45
I remember picking my daughters up from a movie or from a party and they had started a movie.
35:50
And I don't remember why it reminded I don't
35:53
know if there was like a gun in it something reminded them of
35:56
their loss so when they got in the car and like
35:59
are you you guys just got there an hour ago like I just don't want to be there
36:02
I don't even like those guys and I knew that wasn't true so I dug a little deeper
36:07
so was there anything in particular that happened and then one of the twins
36:12
was like well they turned on this movie and then this guy was shooting somebody
36:16
and it sounds like it wasn't even an appropriate movie,
36:19
but for them, it was really too close to their loss and brought up that sadness.
36:24
So we talked for a while and they didn't end up going back to the party,
36:28
but it was an option we talked about.
36:30
I was like, you guys, even though your dad's gone, you can still have a fun time.
36:35
You can, if you don't like a certain movie, you can ask for what you need.
36:38
And they just got really, when they would get triggered, they got really quiet
36:41
where My son got really loud and aggressive and kicking.
36:45
And yeah, one thing that I like to share about being able to hold space for
36:51
a lot of grief in the moment that I found out that Emmett had been murdered,
36:56
my first wave of emotion and this, I used to feel guilty for this,
37:01
but I don't feel guilty anymore because I had spent months wondering what is happening.
37:04
Why is he acting this way? Why does he seem off? Why does he seem distant?
37:08
My first wave of emotion was relief.
37:11
Because I wasn't crazy. And that's the infidelity part, right? Yeah.
37:16
That separate than the murder, because I was not relieved he was killed.
37:19
I was not relieved he was gone. And now I had to tell his kids about it.
37:21
I was relieved that I wasn't crazy because I had spent so long feeling crazy.
37:27
And in that same moment came over me, devastation, heartbreak,
37:33
embarrassment. I was so embarrassed.
37:35
The whole fricking town was going to know this story. It wasn't like I could
37:38
just, he got in a wreck, he loved us, we get to move on.
37:41
But I had enough space in me to have all of those emotions within seconds of each other firing.
37:47
So there's going to be times when you're triggered that maybe it triggers the
37:51
sadness, but then you have different waves that happen. And that's what that
37:55
part of the book is supposed to mean.
37:56
Like there is enough room inside of you to have joy, even when you've gone through a loss.
38:02
And there's enough room inside of you to be angry, even though you're really, really sad.
38:07
And I think that there could not be a better example of that.
38:10
I mean, weren't you approached, was it middle of the night or early morning?
38:13
And I think it was like one o'clock in the morning or something.
38:16
Okay. So what's really interesting is I'm a huge acceptance and commitment therapy therapist.
38:20
That's the modality I love. And it starts from this place of since you're the
38:23
only version of you that's ever been you, you think and feel the way you do because you do.
38:28
And I never want this to sound dismissive. But when somebody will even say,
38:31
well, why did you say that?
38:32
Or why did you think that? the first response really is because I did,
38:35
because that's how I felt.
38:37
That's what I thought. Now I can look at it with some curiosity now.
38:40
And so I love what you just said there that you used to feel bad about it,
38:43
but that was, it just was, that was your first reaction.
38:47
There's nothing wrong with that.
38:49
And what becomes wrong with it is when we like shame ourselves,
38:52
like you shouldn't have felt relief because your husband was just killed.
38:55
But the part of me that was feeling the relief was the girl who was wondering
38:59
what was happening. And I can love her right there.
39:02
She needs to be lived right there because that's a really hard thing to face.
39:06
She does. And I appreciate that too.
39:08
Differentiation was my thing of 2024. And just that it's so fascinating that
39:12
it's that other person is saying, you should feel this way because that would
39:15
make sense to me and I want to make sense of the world.
39:18
And so, I'm assuming that if I was in your shoes, this is how I would feel.
39:22
It's wild when you really break it down that way versus how are you feeling?
39:27
That's a lot easier. But then if the person expresses something,
39:30
oh, I can't believe you think that way.
39:32
I'm not comfortable with you feeling that way. Yes, exactly.
39:35
I've been throwing a math formula on it.
39:36
Try to help somebody get through this 90% solid, maybe 10% flexible sense of
39:40
self. I'm good. I'm okay.
39:42
This is how I feel. This is what I think. So when somebody is saying,
39:45
I can't believe you think that, or why don't you think this?
39:48
Then I can say, well, that's adorable that you know how I should feel.
39:51
Tell me more versus like our reactions, our big feelings. Okay.
39:54
Can we do a tiny bit of a speed run? There's a page in.
39:58
So please everyone get the book because it's so good you have a part where you
40:03
said how to interact while reading this book with a grieving child but do you
40:06
want to go through any of your favorites there okay okay.
40:10
Do you want me to read it? Yeah. I was sitting there thinking,
40:12
I just want to read it all.
40:13
I was going to make a joke and say, hey, can I just do a whole podcast on these?
40:16
And I'll just pretend that I came up with it. Because this is,
40:18
I did one a long time ago that was how to teach your kids empathy.
40:20
And I just, I think that you sum it up better than anything here.
40:24
Maybe go through the highlights.
40:25
Ask questions about what the child in the picture is feeling.
40:29
So basically point out a picture, like, what is this kid feeling?
40:32
And in that moment, they're going to tell you what they are feeling in a similar situation.
40:37
And that's the part where you say, oh, that's ridiculous, right?
40:39
And you let them know that they're wrong. Shut them down.
40:42
Okay. Tell them how they should feel. Yeah. Okay. Good. Good.
40:46
This helps them directly connect to their heart and gives them a space to find
40:50
their truth and truly see their own emotions without it hurting so much.
40:54
Next idea. Ask them if there is a way you can be there for them through this hard time.
40:59
And I like that one. One of the best things I find even in trying to help someone
41:03
be present and sit with the discomfort of someone else's emotions is thank you
41:07
for sharing. How can I show up for you right now?
41:09
Versus you should do this or because sometimes I had my friend Preston doing
41:13
this. I was venting one time and he just said, man, that sounds hard. How can I show up for you?
41:17
And I just felt like he did some voodoo trick on me. And I just said.
41:20
I guess you're kind of doing it. I think I just wanted to say it.
41:22
And it just felt so validating.
41:24
But if they say something like, well, I'm going to take you to a movie tonight
41:28
and it's going to make you feel better.
41:30
And you're like, I don't want to go anywhere. I actually plan on being in my jams all day.
41:34
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We'll try to them feel better help
41:37
you out but asking how yeah okay um ask
41:41
about the person who they lost and tell them you are always there
41:44
to talk about it when they want to okay this
41:46
ashley that one i think that people are so afraid to talk about that one spoke
41:51
to me so much because i think i often hear people say i didn't want to bring
41:54
it up because i didn't want them to think about it if they weren't thinking
41:57
about it what do you say to that you know whenever someone opens up to me like
42:02
I lost my son, and they start telling the story,
42:05
I always say, what was his name? Oh, yeah.
42:08
And I'm telling you, there's been so many people that just start tearing up
42:11
like, oh, I haven't said his name in a while.
42:14
Nobody's asked. They have been so focused on me losing my son that we kind of
42:18
forget about the son that I lost.
42:20
So I think it's always better to ask because most people who have lost someone,
42:25
if they're not in an avoidance moment, they might want to talk about it or at least acknowledge it.
42:32
Or sometimes you almost like sit around in a room like, I wonder if everybody
42:35
knows that I'm a hot mess.
42:37
And then when they get to talk about it, they say, this is why I'm a hot mess, you know?
42:42
Because I'm an opportunity to share why they think they're stuck inside themselves.
42:48
Well, and this is why, again, your book, it's a muse for me.
42:51
I know it's for kids and people going through grief and loss,
42:53
but even that part to me just spoke to, I think everybody has things going on
42:57
and we want to be heard and understood.
42:59
But then sometimes when somebody does start to be heard, it makes others uncomfortable
43:04
and then they tell them what they should do about it. And so that's why I just
43:07
think this speaks to all of this.
43:09
Also, something else I've heard a lot when I've shared my story or something,
43:14
somebody walks up to me and they're like, you're so lucky your husband died.
43:18
You can't imagine how hard it is to parent and you would have gotten divorced.
43:22
And those kind of comments are never helpful. These hearts are so different.
43:27
And the loss of divorce is so hard, but the loss of death for a child is so hard.
43:31
Like, anyways, so moments like that helped inspire some questions.
43:36
Share memories and answer questions about the person who died.
43:39
Even the hard ones to answer.
43:41
Age-appropriate truth is a necessary part of a child's full healing.
43:45
And again, I could stop on every one of these, but I've had several sessions
43:49
come to mind with people that when they tried to ask questions about maybe their
43:54
dad who had passed away or something, and people in the family just telling them,
43:58
let's not talk about that right now, or we'll talk about that some other time,
44:01
and just ways that they just kind of kick that can down the road,
44:03
and that messaging that it sends of that,
44:05
for some reason, we can't talk about this, So then maybe I shouldn't be feeling it or thinking it.
44:10
And that's really difficult. I just love the whole message of it's okay to talk
44:14
about these things. It will be uncomfortable, but that's okay.
44:17
Yeah, for sure. Especially complex stories of how people die can be very uncomfortable.
44:23
And with age-appropriate timing, that truth can be really healing for a kid
44:28
who's always been like, something's not quite right.
44:30
Like the story doesn't quite add up. it's really
44:33
helpful for them in the long run to have that
44:36
discomfort conversation right now instead
44:39
of holding it inside for so long actually i
44:42
have to ask you have your kids all seen like the dateline or
44:45
those kind of things a few of them have watched a
44:48
few of the things that have come out and there
44:51
was a time last year actually that my daughter
44:54
sat me down and was like i need to know more i
44:57
need to know and all five of them were like fine we
45:00
all want to know more so as they've become
45:03
older i've never wanted to hold back on yeah
45:06
the truth that helps set them free because even
45:09
though we've focused on the good too and
45:12
we still go and celebrate him because i want them to be connected to the good
45:16
parts that they still have inside of them i don't ever want them to find something
45:19
out they're like why wouldn't you have told us that why do we have to find that
45:22
out somewhere else yeah that makes sense that does yeah i saw on your instagram
45:27
you and keith morrison do you do a decent keith morrison impression.
45:33
Probably not he's kind of
45:36
awesome though is he is he everything that you would
45:38
hope he would be you know what he's been like well he was
45:41
the first guy that interviewed me and it was supposed to
45:44
be like an hour long and we sat there for three hours and he just bawled with
45:48
me wow man bawled with me as the first time i had said the whole thing out loud
45:52
too so i was in a crazy dark place but it was a really cool experience and then
45:58
well that picture's from that time but then we had another interview a couple
46:02
of years ago and he's just,
46:04
I just feel like he really actually cares when he's, I'd love that even more.
46:08
Cause yeah, it's such a fan. I mean, so that's nice to hear really.
46:11
Yeah. And I've had others that have been the complete opposite.
46:14
So it's fun to, to see different ways people interview.
46:20
So, okay, Ashley, I hate to say, but I think we're running low on time. So can we do one more?
46:25
Let's do one more. Which one do you want to do? communication is key
46:29
stay connected to a hurting child they need to feel loved even on
46:32
the days when their coping creates hard to love reactions peace is
46:35
the goal bring calm to your interactions and build
46:38
a safe place for them so they can catch their breath grief is
46:41
not easy but you can be there for each other okay very
46:45
brilliant way that you put that when their coping creates hard to love reactions
46:49
and you five kids now seven is that right okay do you ever have a day where
46:55
there's a kid that is full or there's no hard to love reactions from kids?
47:01
I don't think I've ever had one yet. Okay.
47:04
So what's that like? How do you get through that?
47:07
My approach is usually like, hey, I can see you're having a hard time.
47:12
Do you want to talk about it?
47:14
And some are like, yeah, I want to talk about it. And they spew and others are
47:18
like, I don't want to talk right now.
47:19
But usually they come over and want to talk about it.
47:23
That's on a good day. On a bad day, like, hey, you can't treat me like that.
47:26
Go up to your room. You know, there's all ranges of parenting moments.
47:30
But what my main goal is, is to make sure they know that they're loved.
47:34
And I see embarrassment a lot. I have one daughter who's five right now.
47:38
I saw her hitting her sister or
47:41
something. And I looked over and she got embarrassed and she ran upstairs.
47:44
And my instincts told me just let her sit in her room, whatever.
47:48
She's got to figure it out and calm herself down.
47:51
But I could tell in my heart something else was wrong. And I went in her room
47:54
and I picked her up and sat her on my lap.
47:56
And I was like, did you know there's nothing in the whole world you could ever
47:59
do that would make me stop loving you?
48:01
And she just looked at me and I'm like, I'm not kidding. Like I saw you hit Kyler.
48:05
And that makes me sad because you're not protecting your sister because my job
48:09
is to protect you and Kyler.
48:11
So I need to make sure there's a safe place for both of you.
48:14
And instead of being angry at the thing, the problem that we had,
48:19
I'm like, what can we do differently?
48:21
Let's look at this problem and what can we do differently?
48:23
And she's like, I could have just asked her if I could have a turn.
48:26
I was like, that would be perfect. Do you want to go talk to her about that?
48:29
Yeah. But other times when I've just kind of ignored it and let her go to her
48:32
room and slammed the door.
48:33
She was up there for an hour and I could hear her huffing and puffing,
48:37
but she just needed to feel connected and that she was good enough to know. That's a great story.
48:43
Yeah. I love it. Ashley, it's fun to talk to you again. I hope that we can not
48:47
go another 80 episodes or so. That's on me.
48:49
I can reach out sooner, but where can people find you? I'll put links all.
48:52
What should people look for?
48:54
I mean, obviously one day a child's journey through grief and loss.
48:57
Yeah. This is on Amazon. I have three other books on Amazon that are more about,
49:01
It's basically my journal through the healing journey after the murder trial
49:05
and things. Well, through the murder trial is the third one.
49:08
And then themomentswestand.com is my website.
49:11
And then on Instagram and Facebook, I'm more active on those.
49:15
And YouTube, The Moments We Stand. I haven't been doing as much on YouTube just
49:18
because it's one more step that I haven't been taking.
49:20
But always on Instagram, The Moments We Stand, and Facebook.
49:24
Okay, I appreciate it. So good to see you. I'll put all the links.
49:27
And then I would love to have you on again. You don't even have to write another
49:29
book. We can just talk about something.
49:31
Music.