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Leading Differently Together | "Shepherds" With Rev. Vincent Solomon · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

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It seems to me out there within indigenous Christian
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space that there seems to be this polarity
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between being indigenous and being Christian and that the 2
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cannot meet. And if they do come together, they only
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together to a certain point. Well, how can I
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be all of this? What does
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loving your neighbor actually look like? This is
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Journey with Care, where curious Canadians get inspired to love
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others well through real life stories and honest
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conversations. Hey, curious Sojourners. We're
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continuing in our series Leading Differently Together, and I'm so
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glad you're on this journey with me as we're meeting up with some fascinating
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people from across Canada who are living in their sweet spots,
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making an impact in their God given wiring. And in
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Ephesians 4 11 to 12, it says, God
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gives some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds,
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and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry,
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for building up the body of Christ. But what does that
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look like in Canada? You'll have to keep listening to find out. Today,
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we're gonna get curious about shepherding. I'm your host, Wendi Park, joined
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by producer Johan Heinrichs. And in studio today, we have a
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very special guest in Winnipeg, Manitoba on Treaty 1
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territory, my friend and brother, Vince Solomon.
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Vince, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. It's so good to have you
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here. Yeah. Good to be here. Yeah. So, Vince, you and I met
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a couple years ago, I think on at some conferences we
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were speaking at together. Was that right? Well, I had invited
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you to, be a part of a conference that I had
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arranged. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. You tagged
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me first, and I was honored to be part of that Anglican conference,
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talking about houselessness and homelessness. I remember that. And I think
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I tagged you back, and you spoke at a couple events, and
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I've we've had some mutual connections, since then. So,
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Vince, I would love for, you to share a little bit about
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yourself just so our audience is aware. You are a priest
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with the Anglican church situated here in the
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city of Winnipeg. Mhmm. You have been pastoring, but you've done
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many things before that leading you up to this pastoral
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position. Can you tell us a little bit of your story into
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pastoring? I started when I was about,
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well, I didn't start pastoring when I was 10, but the the
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calling came from from God when I was 10. I
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was sitting in the back of a church, and I remember looking
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at the priest, the minister that was there preaching, And I
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was just sitting there being a good boy, otherwise I get spanked
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or something afterwards when I got home. But
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anyway, I was just sitting there and I don't know what the priest was talking
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about, but I just looked up and then all of a sudden it's like God
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saying to me, you know, that's who you're going to be. That's what you're
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gonna do one of these days. Wow. At 10 years old?
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At 10. Yeah. And had you grown up in the faith where your
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was your family of multigenerational Christians? Yes. What was that
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experience? Yep. My mother used to take me to church. My father,
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Rael, he kind of, he believed, but just
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didn't go to church. Mhmm. I think part of that, I
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think, is because he he didn't understand the English.
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Back then, we we used to in the Anakin church, we used to use this.
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We still do in some places, the book of common prayer, which is very Elizabethan
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language. 1,000,000, these and, you know, those kind that kind of
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language. But I grew up, became a teenager, left the
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church because it was boring and didn't go to church for a while.
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And then, eventually though, God called me back
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again. So 1982 when I was 18 years old
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was when God, once again,
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imprinted into my heart that it was him that I needed.
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And so that was when I decided, okay. Yeah. This is this is
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something that I want to do, to follow Jesus.
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But I the whole calling never left me. Even as a
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teenager, it never left me. And so when I
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graduated from high school, I came down to Winnipeg
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for theological training. But at that
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time, you had to first get a bachelor of arts.
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And so went to the University of Manitoba for that.
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From there, graduated, went to St. John's College,
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and life happened in a very major way. So
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I wandered around the desert, as it were, for for quite a
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while, for a number of years, until eventually
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I came back again to a new
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place, but a renewal of that calling. So
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I, then went and
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approached the Bishop of Rupersland and said, I do believe
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I had a calling about this. And and so he he sent
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me off. And, the way that it works in the Anglican church is that you
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have to be a member of a congregation, at least for for a period of
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time. Mhmm. And then you had to be called from the congregation.
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So they would affirm your calling in in the pastoral
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Yes. Yeah. I was at Saint Benedict's table, and, so I was
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a member there for for a number of years. I'm not quite sure how it
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happened. Somehow, Jamie, the priest at the
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time, heard of my calling, I suppose. And then we had a
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conversation of where I was with that. Eventually,
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he asked me to go and talk to the bishop, and that is what I
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did. And then the bishop then sent me off
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to, what is called ACPO, for Anglican
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postulants, they call them, to see whether or not the calling that I
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had was from God. So I did that,
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and they affirmed that, yes, indeed, that there was a
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calling from God. Long story short, I got ordained,
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was first working with the St. James' sissen boy school
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division, and I was their aboriginal liaison. And then I taught some
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cultural courses on indigenous spirituality and
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culture. But I imagine you brought that pastoral heart into
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how you were teaching as well. Right? Yeah. Because you have a very
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pastoral nature. Like, it doesn't, surprise me at all
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since an early childhood because it seems so much a part of
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who you are Yeah. In your pastoral presence.
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Yeah. I I really love the kids because I I talked
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from kindergarten all the way to grade 12,
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and I went to all 26 schools within the school division. I
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started sharing circles. And so I got to meet a
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lot a lot of students, lots of kids,
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indigenous as well as not some non indigenous kids. They used to
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come and kinda throw these kids into into my
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into my space and say, fix this person, right, or
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fix him. But that wasn't what I was trying to
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do. But it eventually ended up in a in a very
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good way for the students. The academic achievement of those
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particular students who were in the sacred in the searing circles
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went up exponentially. So it just it just rose.
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As they found belonging and and identity in those groups.
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Within community. Right. Within community. And where they felt safe,
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unwanted, and in many cases, needed
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for for who they are, for their gifts. Right? And and they
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found a voice. And some of them really realized that,
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hey, I'm not stupid. Right? That I I can do this. So
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I worked there for a number of years and then the nature of the job,
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of course, being the only one that does this work there at the
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time, Now it's a big program. Right. But at the time,
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I got very tired. Sure. Like burnt out.
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That's a lot of caregiving Oh. To a lot of people
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wandering through their own deserts. I'm curious
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as you were leading these these sharing circles and in
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reverend Vince then. You you were as a pastor or reverend Vince
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then. You you were as a instructor or a a
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facilitator of these sharing groups. How did you yourself come
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to terms with your own indigeneity and and some
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of your calling and helping other people? Because I I think often we
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can only lead people through Right. To successful ends
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where we are willing to go ourselves. Like, what was that process like as you
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were walking with other students to lead
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them? Well, I was learning quite a bit alongside
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them. This was a journey that I had been on, well, since I was
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born, I suppose. And then my grandfather
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who had gone to residential schools after he left the schools was a
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very traditional man. Mhmm. He
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taught me and tried to teach my
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other cousin who was my the same age as me.
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And but I think I was the only one that ever really was
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into into listening. So it helped me quite a quite a
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bit about our tradition, our people. Some of our ceremonies, not
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much because especially with elders. Right? They will
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teach you what you need to know at the time, and that's what he was
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like. And so but he died when I was 18 years old.
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So I didn't get to learn more of the
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this is what it looks like to be a man. Right? There
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was some, but as I was entering manhood.
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So Did you feel the freedom to explore that
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while still engaged in the church, or was that part of
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your wandering out of the church for that season? You always
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kept coming back, but did they come together Yes. When you're growing up?
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Yes. Especially, you know, the worshiping pieces, that
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certainly was there. The fact that my grandfather
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instilled in me, this sense of pride, I suppose,
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or not pride, to be proud of who I am, as
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an indigenous person. But, however, though, the
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church was very good at, saying
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no to indigenous spirituality. So
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and a lot of the stuff I just kept to myself because I really didn't
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feel that I had the freedom to be able to express
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them at least within the church context. And so I just kind
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of I did the church thing, but I also was was very
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native. And then I came to Winnipeg. Oh my goodness.
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There was a lot of racism. There was an x on my dorm
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door, so I was ostracized because I was native.
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And so I became quite not ashamed, but rather I
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wanted to change. I wanted to hide that. I wanted to be
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different. I didn't want to be thought of
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as an indigenous person because I was told to go down to down
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downtown Winnipeg, and then I'll be able to see what indigenous people are
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like. Right? And so I didn't like what I
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saw, so I changed myself,
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my hair style for 1, and just the way
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I I dressed. And and also I decided to get rid
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of my, northern native accent. So
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it comes back whenever I'm back home. It does come
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back, but, yeah, I made it a point to do that. And
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then when I was working at St. James School Division, I was, at the
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same time, relearning the traditions that I had.
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And then during one time when we were doing smudging, I had
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gone through the ceremony because an elder was teaching us what it
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meant. And, I mean, I knew already what it
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was. Just at this time, I I did go through it.
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And then I was sitting outside in the
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back of the house, and I was
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apologizing. To who? To God. I was saying
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I'm sorry in repenting, I suppose, would be
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a more of a better word of what I had done. I thought
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that I had committed some major sin.
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And, once again, it was, you know you know, how we hear God,
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right Yeah. Within our hearts. God said to me, when
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did I ever ask you to stop being Cree?
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So you were apologizing for being Cree? No. I
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was apologizing for doing Cree
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things. Okay. And part of being Cree
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is having these traditions
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and teachings and carrying them and living them
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out. Right? And so those kinds of things I had
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decided I didn't really need to do anymore.
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Right? So I just kinda put them aside. Mhmm. But I think, oh, what God
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was saying to me was that, well, I never told you to just
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lay this part of you aside. Right? This is part of who you
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are as a Cree person. And so from there,
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I went on this journey of figuring
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out what it was within my tradition and my culture that
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was that was great and wonderful and that could be brought into the
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church or a part of my ministry, And it turns
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out, everything is. Well, that's actually
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part of our friendship began in my interest to see
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you holistically yourself in a pastoral role.
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And I love what I see the way I see
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you pastoring your congregation and bringing
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your indigeneity and not in a performance cultural kind of
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now we'll have a cultural aspect to it. Right. But it feels very
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authentic. And a congregation member knows when they're being
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ministered to by a pastor out of performance or out of this
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is their heart. It it exudes out of you, and that's what I
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see right now in in in what you're doing. Yeah. Well, part
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part of being a pastor, right, is being just the regular things that we all
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know to lead, to teach, and and to feed. Right? So
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it seems to me out there within indigenous Christian
14:31
space that there seems to be this polarity
14:35
between being indigenous and being Christian. Right? And that the
14:38
2 cannot meet. And if they do come together,
14:42
they own it together to a certain point within the
14:46
indigenous person's life. So they there seems to be this okay. This there's
14:50
this part of me, and then there's this part of me. And and
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so what I've been trying to to figure out and to
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do over the years is, well, how can I
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be all of this? Yes. Right?
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Yeah. And so taking a look at scripture
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and and working it through from its historical perspective,
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but at the same time as well trying to figure
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out my culture, my traditions
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within what it says to me now, right, and what it
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says to our people. And and so there are many
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times when when I'm reading something from scripture and it would
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just jump out at me, right, and say, look, this is this
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is your tradition. This is what the elders were teaching you. Right?
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Right. And and so it it can be very exciting.
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A lot of times, it is wonderful to be able to see
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me, my people Mhmm. Within the text. So teaching
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something like that, I think, needs to have some authenticity.
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And I really don't like being one of those people that says, okay. This is
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part of me and that's part of me, but I'm not getting those 2 together.
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Right? Compartmentalize. Who I am. And I would
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venture to say it also allows your congregation members to be who they
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are. Yeah. Right? It gives permission for everybody
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to walk in that or an invitation there too. Because I
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think a lot of us in all kinds of different cultures, we may
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wrestle with it to varying degrees, but particularly if you face
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racism or if you face historical
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oppression, particularly with church involvement,
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That was one of my earlier questions. I was just like, you shared your story
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with me, and yet I'm like, how how do you love the churches
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in a pastoral shepherding way? How your love for the church is evident,
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but how have you loved the church to such depth and
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degree when there's been a lot of harm within the institution?
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Well, I love the church, the small c church. Mhmm. Of
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course, I really love it. I like, as a pastor, tending
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to if you wanna use the analogy of being a shepherd,
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tending to the congregation, right, and
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making sure that they're okay, that they're fed, that they're heard, that they're loved, that
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they're this and that. And and that part I really, really enjoy.
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The big C Church, you know, well, there's a lesson other thing.
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And I think that that's the hardest part of
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being an Anglican priest because you have all of this history
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that kinda follows you. Right? Yeah. And and so,
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it's a bit difficult sometimes to be able to
17:32
walk through that history and to be able to
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somehow manage to live with it. And you've
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chosen to. And how how do you walk through that? How do
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you face those things? Very good question. I think the only
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reason why, apart from the fact that I was baptized in the
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Anglican church and I was always Anglican, and I don't know anything else other than
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being Anglican except for that brief period of time when I went
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to a nondenominational, very
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evangelical church. Mhmm. So I I really didn't know
18:05
anything else, and I still don't really know that much. And I don't know if
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I really want to know anything else other than that. But
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I am not there because
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I'm a priest and that this is what I do. This is what needs to
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be done. I am there because Jesus had called
18:24
me into his church, and that's the only reason.
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The only thing, every every time I start to get upset
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or feeling frustrated and wanting to just get out of
18:36
this thing, right, it is the calling of God that keeps me
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there. And this is Jesus' church, and these are Jesus'
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people. And so because Jesus has chosen me from
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among his people to be able to lead and to feed
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and to sustain the rest of his flock,
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It's a privilege, and so I do it for him, not for not
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for the church. Yeah. No. That's beautiful. And if you were to
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describe the the passage in Ephesians that I referenced
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earlier was shepherding, but we're we're talking about that pastoral. How would
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you describe what are some of those qualities in a pastoral
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calling that may be different from others within the church? It's it's meant to
19:18
build and edify the body of Christ. What are some
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of those things that you find naturally
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drawn to in that pastoral calling? What are some of those
19:30
qualities? A lot of it is on listening.
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I think you have to have real amazing listening skills. And
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I I don't talk much. I do, but I don't and when I
19:42
get to know the person, I tend to talk a lot, but I don't talk
19:45
much. And, and that I think really helps me to,
19:49
to be able to understand, to hear even
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when people don't think that I'm listening to them, Right?
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Maybe in a crowd Mhmm. But I know exactly what people
20:00
are trying to say and what they're saying to one another, so I kinda go,
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oh, this is what he's saying. So you're not only
20:07
attentive to what that person is saying, but you're you just alluded you're also listening
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to what the group is saying. How how are the sheep really doing in here?
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Like, where are things at with with this congregation? Yeah. Yeah. And
20:19
I think that's a skill that that you develop over the years. I mean, I
20:22
am going to be 60 years old in in 2 weeks. Right? And so
20:25
I've been I've been doing this for quite a while now, and
20:29
and it is a skill. And I think I've I think I've always had
20:33
this and, I think it's something that my elders have taught me
20:37
that, you know, just be quiet and listen. Right? And
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and so that's what I did, you know, and so it
20:44
comes sometimes not naturally, but most of the
20:48
time it seems to seems to happen. I think
20:52
one of the other things that I think is important apart from, you
20:55
know, the leading, the feeding, and the teaching and the
20:59
tending to, the flock metaphorically, of course. We
21:03
wouldn't say that. You know, we're in Isaiah 40,
21:07
God says, comfort, comfort my people, says the Lord. Yes.
21:10
Right? And and so I think that's part of
21:14
of of the pastoral's role Mhmm. To being a shepherd is to
21:18
comfort Sure. Comfort the people. The
21:21
word comfort in Hebrew
21:25
is, and it means to strengthen,
21:29
to encourage. So, to comfort is to
21:33
instill a sense of security Mhmm. And to bolster,
21:37
to give them strength, to get them
21:42
to go through what they're going through and yet
21:45
bring them through that and and to be able to hear
21:49
the promises of God that I will take you through that. Because this is what
21:53
Isaiah was saying to the people because they were in that he was
21:57
talking to the ones, at least in this chapter anyway, the ones who were
22:01
exiled already. Mhmm. And so he was saying, you
22:04
know, comfort, uncomfort my people, says the lord. I
22:08
like that because what you're not saying is that I'm gonna take
22:12
all your hurt and pain and protect you and and keep you
22:15
avoidant of that. Right. I'm gonna be there with you and walk through
22:19
that with you. I think often we we think of
22:23
pastors, people in pastoral roles as having to do
22:26
everything. Yeah. But it it's really helping the
22:30
body of Christ come through into their own unique
22:33
callings too. Would you not say? Yes.
22:45
That, I think someone or someone needs to let
22:49
them know that God is there and God
22:53
is now wanting to take you out of exile
22:57
and and to bring you through that through that pain
23:00
and and to bring you into a place where you can
23:04
see his promises fulfilled or God's promises
23:07
fulfilled. Yeah. So I re I really like that,
23:11
that one. And at the end of that verse says the Lord,
23:15
it means to just keep on saying it and keep on saying it and
23:19
keep on saying it. So that's what he's telling his people.
23:23
And and as well, he was telling Isaiah, you know,
23:27
keep saying it and keep saying it until
23:32
it's heard and listened to. And
23:35
finally, I can start to bring. And if this
23:39
when they start to walk, then then I can lead them out.
23:43
Right? And indigenous people have been, in a lot of
23:47
ways, exiled. They want us to sing the lord's song in a
23:50
strange land in captivity, as that song
23:54
goes. Sometimes, even for me, living in
23:58
Winnipeg seems to be a very strange land
24:01
still. Mhmm. And I've I have felt over the years that
24:05
I've I've been held captive, forced
24:09
to learn something that I never
24:12
knew. Right? Or or to talk in a way that
24:17
I never really did, that is English,
24:21
and to be able to think in the English way.
24:25
Because within the language is your worldview. Right?
24:29
And so for me, to learn English meant to to
24:33
learn another worldview apart from the
24:37
Cree, which is very different sometimes,
24:40
mostly from from the English way of So are you able to
24:44
currently, as a priest, are you able to lead
24:48
other Cree people in the Cree language and and some of
24:52
those practices in how you worship and how you lead
24:55
people? Yes. Yes. We are, church is called Epiphany
24:59
Indigenous Anglican Church. It's a congregation that is
25:03
inclusive, so it's not just an indigenous congregation. So
25:06
we have quite a number of non indigenous people there.
25:10
But I tend to use, Cree
25:14
words to enhance the
25:18
reading of the scripture. And we we do drumming,
25:22
and, the welcome song is in Cree. So we try and
25:25
do as much of that as we can, but it's
25:29
it it it is English that unifies all of us because there's Inuit
25:33
people there. There's Metis people. There's Cree people. There's
25:37
Ojibwe people, you know, all all in the mix of non
25:40
indigenous people. So we have to be able to understand each other.
25:44
So, but Cree is there. Not this past Sunday. The
25:47
Sunday before, we had the Eucharist
25:51
in in Igitut. Oh, really? Yeah.
25:54
And, I don't speak in Ittitut, but there's a
25:58
priest who comes to Epiphany that speaks it. And
26:01
so even though I'm not the one doing it, if there are
26:05
gifts out there that other people can bring into the
26:09
worship time, you know, wonderful. Well,
26:12
the gift of pastoring, it doesn't have the moniker
26:16
c o. Right? Like, it doesn't have to be everything. In fact,
26:20
you might shepherd other people into their own giftings, and
26:24
sharing those things in common, I think, is a beautiful trait of that pastoral
26:27
gift. But sometimes we've added so many other
26:31
things, other duties as necessary as required,
26:35
and and we require a lot of pastors that maybe
26:38
we need to be sharing to to
26:42
others. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think we can
26:45
learn, quite a bit from the apostles
26:49
when there was a persecution. Remember Paul? He was persecuting the
26:52
church and he allowed Stephen to be killed. And
26:56
so there was this scattering of
27:00
people all over the place except for the 12 apostles.
27:04
And so they remain in the city and didn't go with
27:07
them. Mhmm. But these people who did go out
27:11
were proclaiming the good news of Jesus
27:15
and and healing people and casting out demons. Right?
27:19
But these were the people whom the apostles,
27:24
were discipling. And so I
27:27
I think that's part of what I feel is is
27:31
really important is to the to be able
27:35
to teach, to build up the body of
27:39
Christ so that they can go out and
27:42
do the work rather than me doing everything.
27:47
And that includes going out into the congregation
27:50
sometimes to do some of the work that that needs to be done there. Meaning
27:53
the needs of each other and walking with each other. Yeah. And and
27:57
then from there, you know, then then people can move
28:01
out and go and preach and teach and exercise
28:04
demons or whatever they wanted to do. Well and I think the walking with each
28:08
other is somewhat countercultural to our North
28:12
American city colonized mentality
28:15
of each to their own, but walking with each other, we think,
28:19
well, that's why you hire the pastor. Right? And yet I think it is a
28:23
huge gift in what you're saying is helping other people to walk out those things.
28:27
I'm curious, Vince, in in your experience,
28:31
There will be people listening that maybe have that niggle of that
28:34
pastoral calling, some of those things that resonate. They're they're nurturing. They're
28:38
empathetic. They they listen better than than most of
28:41
us. Right? Or they're they're attuned to to the
28:45
well-being of people. What encouragement would you
28:48
give to that 10 year old or that 16 year old walking
28:52
away from the church, I've had it, to somebody coming back and
28:56
wanting to find their authentic presence within the body of Christ, what
28:59
advice would you give to people that are maybe feeling they're
29:03
exploring that calling? Yeah. Well well, first of all, I
29:06
wouldn't tell, you know, anybody to leave the church because Right. From
29:10
the experience, I find that I really needed the
29:14
body of Christ, when I was a teenager. And I think that
29:17
things would have gone maybe perhaps a little bit more,
29:21
smoother if I had just stayed and listened and just
29:25
be a part of the the community. But the church, the
29:29
big c church, is very hard to understand.
29:33
It's hard to imagine doing things and
29:37
working within it. But if you hear
29:41
God's tugging or calling you, it's not
29:45
really necessarily calling you into the big
29:49
denominational sea. Right? What God is doing
29:52
is calling you to be and and calling you to be and setting
29:56
you apart as it were to be a part
30:00
of this congregation so that you may be able to
30:04
show and teach and hopefully by your life,
30:08
teach the example of Christ
30:12
ministry. And I wonder if it even starts
30:16
small. Everything always starts small. It's in the in the small. It's it's in
30:20
pouring that cup of coffee, helping that person with the door. It's it's nurturing
30:24
and caring, using that, exercising those there's caregiving
30:28
qualities about it in walking with people in those
30:31
small ways that you almost get invited into. I love your
30:35
story early on and how you had elders and
30:39
people within the Anglican church not testing you to approve
30:42
you as an exam. It didn't I don't get that sense from your story, but
30:46
just affirming within you those things. But it had you not
30:50
been exercising or making yourself available in those
30:53
places, they couldn't affirm that in you. Yeah. Well,
30:57
it it's within community that we find out who we are. It's within
31:01
community that we know what our giftings are, and I think it's in
31:05
community where God calls us. And so the
31:08
elders, are are very much a part of all of
31:12
that, And so it's really strange.
31:16
Sometimes I wonder, and I laugh about this, which came
31:19
first? When I was a child, the elders gave me a
31:23
name, which is a main behavior in apesis, meaning praying
31:26
boy, right? When I grew into
31:30
adulthood, they called me a praying
31:35
man as opposed to a, which is
31:38
priest. So I'm going, did I become a priest because
31:42
that's what the elders were calling me? Or
31:46
did they know? Right? Right. Like, they have,
31:49
elders when you're when you listen, because they they just they're
31:53
very wise. They just sit there and they take in life and
31:57
they've lived life and they can understand. And so I
32:00
think sometimes when they look into your eyes, they know exactly the
32:04
gifts that you have. Right? I mean, it's it's it's a very strange
32:08
thing to say, but I I I think there are some of those elders
32:12
that really do. And, They may actually see more in you
32:15
than you felt at your in yourself at that time as a
32:19
young boy. I think so. They saw that in you. You're right. I I
32:23
now I can see some some other kids that I know. I know
32:27
what their gifts are, and they probably don't know. And you can speak
32:30
that into their being and speak life to
32:34
that. And some people don't know exactly what it is that,
32:38
that God wants them to do. This this particular student that I have
32:41
now, and, he's always, you know, I said, well,
32:45
because in our very first beginning of our core the course, I asked I said,
32:49
well, why are you guys here, right, taking this course? Because I teach,
32:53
indigenous and Christian course. And,
32:57
when the the one guy said, well, I've always been I
33:00
don't know why. I always seem to get
33:04
attracted to the the theology
33:07
courses and and to more of the
33:11
kinda pastoral stuff. And so I said,
33:16
I wonder what God is saying. Right? And that's all I said.
33:20
And and so now the guy is wondering, is this
33:24
is this what God is calling me to be? Yeah. Right? Is this a
33:28
preparation for something that is that is very much
33:32
involved in the church? Because he doesn't know what he
33:35
wants to be even now because he's gonna be graduating soon, so
33:39
you better find out. And that's a very pastoral
33:43
practical advice you're just providing. Pay attention to what
33:46
your eyes see and where you keep gravitating toward, what catches your
33:50
attention, what needs to be done. There may be a an invitation
33:53
attached to that. And I also hear what you're saying in your story
33:57
is surround yourself with people that can validate and speak life
34:01
into that that have wisdom. We've sometimes,
34:05
compartmentalized even generations from each other
34:08
of not understanding, but actually to seek that wisdom and Godly
34:12
counsel out. Yeah. And to have that Godly counsel, as you
34:15
say, is part of leadership. Right.
34:19
Part of being a leader to those ones who may
34:23
be floundering or who may not know what
34:26
to do. Sometimes people will need to ask,
34:31
well, what do you think? Sometimes it's up to us humans
34:35
to figure it all out. You know, God gave us a brain and and we
34:39
have the ability to pray and to discern when
34:42
God will will show us. But I think that God
34:46
shows us a lot of the time and tells us through
34:50
leadership Yeah. With whether that's elders or preachers
34:54
or mom and dads or Well, I wanna thank you, Vince,
34:57
for taking this time for this conversation. Thank you for
35:01
this coming on to the podcast, but I also
35:10
into good readings. I have some good books on my shelf thanks to you as
35:14
I I get curious. Yeah. And you do have that shepherding presence, and I
35:17
really value and appreciate you as a friend and as a
35:21
brother in Christ. And so thank you so much, and I wish you all
35:25
God's blessing as you continue to pastor people. Thank
35:28
you. Thank you for
35:32
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