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Maccabees Wrap Up: The OT is DONE! · Sacrilegious Discourse - Bible Study for Atheists

0:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Husband wife do you know what we're doing today.
0:04
[SPEAKER_06]: We're finally wrapping up a second Maccabee's first in second Maccabee's we're wrapping up all the macadudos got it got it yeah So yeah, we're we're doing that and didn't sorry it's been a while since we've had a release for an episode But but we have just so you know
0:27
[SPEAKER_06]: we've already recorded first and second Mac or first and second.
0:30
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm sorry, the first and second chapters of Matthew.
0:33
[SPEAKER_00]: You came first, Matthew.
0:35
[SPEAKER_06]: I know.
0:35
[SPEAKER_06]: I know.
0:36
[SPEAKER_06]: I know.
0:36
[SPEAKER_00]: They're very confusing silly.
0:39
[SPEAKER_06]: They will be coming out.
0:40
[SPEAKER_06]: And if you are on discord, you definitely would have heard them.
0:43
[SPEAKER_06]: And you will have heard them if you were on Patreon as well.
0:46
[SPEAKER_06]: That is true.
0:47
[SPEAKER_06]: So.
0:48
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, that's one way to get things that we want to slow release and stuff, but like and when we do it out of order.
0:53
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
0:53
[SPEAKER_06]: This is just we had a little bit of extra research and a lot of things and stuff and what have you.
1:00
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, what have yous.
1:01
[SPEAKER_06]: So, um, do you have anything else to add?
1:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah.
1:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm about ready to say Sayonara to the OT.
1:09
[SPEAKER_06]: I. Yeah.
1:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Goodbye Hebrew Bible.
1:22
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, let's hop into the macadudos of it all.
1:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
1:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So we know that first and second macadudos were kind of covering a lot of the same ground.
1:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, one was from more of a historical perspective and one was more from a god perspective.
1:43
[SPEAKER_06]: Yes, yes, that's the first second b's being the reference or whatever.
1:47
[SPEAKER_06]: Historical and for a second being the god.
1:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You just need to stop saying first and second anything because you keep fucking it all, but yes, that is correct.
1:56
[SPEAKER_06]: At least it's not the sixth.
1:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And also that the Macadoodles came after the Old Testament
2:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So, it fell into that 400-year period that defending who you ask is called the 400 years of silence.
2:16
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
2:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember that whole thing?
2:17
[SPEAKER_06]: I do.
2:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
2:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So, during the time of when we're talking about the Macadoodles, which was the second century BCE.
2:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
2:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
2:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Judea, right smack dab between the Tolemak kingdom in Egypt.
2:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the tollemies in Egypt, right?
2:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was between there and the salaisid empire, which was based in Syria, okay, okay, so Judea is like smack dab in the middle of Greece and Egypt, okay?
2:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And just to kind of put that in the perspective for, you know, if you're trying to imagine it on a map today.
3:01
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
3:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
3:03
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, Syria is not Greece, but yes, then so it's right.
3:07
[SPEAKER_06]: But they that part of the Celia city empire was Syria probably the largest portion of.
3:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I'm just trying to put it into perspective for somebody who is geographically challenged.
3:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
3:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And might have an idea where those places are that gives you a round about idea.
3:26
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
3:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
3:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was right between those two kingdoms, okay?
3:31
[SPEAKER_00]: The kingdom and the empire.
3:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
3:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And the monarchy, those were the monarchy that had formed following the death of Alexander the Great.
3:40
[SPEAKER_06]: Got it, right?
3:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
3:41
[SPEAKER_06]: He died and... Yeah.
3:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
3:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And it left this huge vacuum and that's where everybody came to play.
3:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
3:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
3:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
3:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And that actually laid the ground for all of this to happen.
3:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So thanks, Greed.
3:59
[SPEAKER_06]: Some say we wouldn't have Jesus if it wasn't for Alexander the Great.
4:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we wouldn't have a lot of stuff going to am bad, you know, kind of leaves a lot to think about.
4:11
[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, the what if some of the of history, right?
4:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
4:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
4:15
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's so true.
4:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Some Jews mainly those of the urban upper class wanted to dispense with Jewish law, and they just wanted to like go Greek.
4:26
[SPEAKER_00]: They wanted to adopt a Greek lifestyle.
4:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
4:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
4:29
[SPEAKER_00]: They were like,
4:30
[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, the Greeks seem to have a pretty good, they were, they were on a pretty good time of things.
4:33
[SPEAKER_00]: They had a pretty good time of things.
4:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we talked about like Greece, baby, and how this was a golden age of Greece, and they were just having all kinds of discoveries and creations, and there art was taken off, language was flipping.
4:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Education was coming to everybody and just,
4:57
[SPEAKER_00]: civilization like people were able to finally like settle down and relax for a minute, you know, Grace was pretty cool during this time period.
5:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of the Jews were like, Matt, we haven't heard about God coming to visit and angels and chids like for quite some time and I really like what the Greeks are wearing.
5:21
[SPEAKER_00]: They have some great clothes and styles.
5:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go Greek.
5:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the Hellenizing Jew the yogurt too.
5:30
[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you know, I'm just saying
5:33
[SPEAKER_00]: don't be ridiculous.
5:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So the Hellenizing Jews, and when we say Hellenizing, we mean the Greek Jews.
5:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
5:41
[SPEAKER_00]: They built a gymnasium, remember all of this, in Jerusalem, where being nude, their circumcision's caused quite the stir, because they wrestle in the nude when they do the gym.
5:56
[SPEAKER_06]: And the Greeks were making laws that they couldn't circumcise and it was a thing it was a whole thing Yeah, if you didn't hear us talking about the surgeries that people had to rectify in the fact that they had been circumcised God, you may not want to go back and listen to that
6:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a whole thing.
6:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so epiphanies, any alcohol epiphanies was like saying, y'all need to stop with all of your Jewish ways and stop it.
6:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Stop being Jewish.
6:29
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
6:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And some of some of the Jews were like, yeah, okay, and then others of the Jews were like, um, but no, what about no.
6:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
6:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there was just all of all of the shit came downhill.
6:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
6:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So the macabees were a group of Jewish rebel warriors who retook control of Judea and they won for a minute.
6:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
6:54
[SPEAKER_00]: It was awesome.
6:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
6:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and it was only good for a minute for a minute
7:03
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's where the macabees, first things like the macabees are all about like, they don't tell you like they don't go past, they want, they're just like, yeah, we want.
7:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
7:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's what this is about, that five minutes, like leading up to that five minute victory.
7:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
7:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
7:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So the Hasmanians founded the Hasmanian dynasty.
7:25
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
7:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
7:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And it came about because of the macabee and revolt, rebellion.
7:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
7:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And the Hezmann A and dynasty ruled from 167 BCE after the McBeom revolt to 37 BCE.
7:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's a...
7:44
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a fair.
7:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Pretty decent.
7:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's more than five minutes.
7:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll say about 15 minutes, given you, sure, I guess.
7:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever, they re-asserted the Jewish religion.
7:54
[SPEAKER_00]: They freed Judea from the Syrian Greek occupiers and they reduced the influence of Hellenism and Hellenistic Judaism, which was a thing.
8:05
[SPEAKER_00]: They were like Greeks get out of here.
8:07
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not trying to have your stuff.
8:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
8:10
[UNKNOWN]: OK.
8:11
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, I was saying that they, that last five minutes from what I recall from previous discussions is that they, um, they didn't have the best time of things in their own rulings.
8:22
[SPEAKER_06]: Like, when they when they tried to rule themselves, it didn't go so well.
8:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It did not.
8:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It did not.
8:27
[SPEAKER_00]: The Jewish dynasty ruled Judea during the Hellenistic times of the second temple period from around
8:40
[SPEAKER_00]: They took some interesting titles that has many and rulers took the Greek title Basilius.
8:47
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
8:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Which that's where we get like Basilica and stuff like that.
8:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
8:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, Rome.
8:55
[SPEAKER_06]: Got it.
8:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yay.
8:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
8:57
[SPEAKER_00]: OK. Like those words share a route.
9:01
[SPEAKER_00]: The Greek title Basilius means King.
9:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's very interesting.
9:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
9:08
[SPEAKER_00]: OK.
9:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Between around 141 and 116 BCE, the Dynasty ruled Judea semi-autonomously within the Salaeusid Empire.
9:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so like they were in charge of their own shit, but they still fell under the Salaisid Empire for this time period.
9:32
[SPEAKER_00]: From roughly one 10 BCE with the Salaisid Empire disintegrating, they gained further autonomy and expanded into the neighboring regions of Perea, Samaria, Ijumea, Galilee,
9:53
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so they spread out and this we heard more about this and the first macabre It's what they kind of did this whole expansionist thing.
10:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I thought that's why it's been a minute So that's why I wanted to just go back over like this is what we read This is what these two books were trying to tell us, okay?
10:11
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what actually happened outside of what the books told us, but within the scope of what the books were about right
10:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So make sense.
10:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
10:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So they were a fully independent kingdom from 104 to 63 BCE.
10:28
[SPEAKER_06]: So they were like, okay, we're on our own to like 40 years.
10:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
10:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So like again, they were like free for five minutes.
10:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
10:37
[SPEAKER_00]: We went from five to 15 minutes back to no just kidding five minutes.
10:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
10:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Forces of the Roman Republic intervened in the Heismanian Civil War in 63 BCE turning the kingdom into a Roman client state and marking an irreversible decline of Heismanian power.
11:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Now this wasn't covered in macabees and you might be asking why am I even mentioning this because while this is a wrap up of the Old Testament.
11:09
[SPEAKER_00]: in particular a wrap up of the macabees which come after the Old Testament, I kind of want to just talk a little bit about like the lead up to Jesus.
11:23
[SPEAKER_00]: The lead up to Jesus because that did not happen in a vacuum and we've said that multiple times, but I just think it bears repeating.
11:31
[SPEAKER_00]: So they were like,
11:35
[SPEAKER_00]: rolled semi-autonomously under the solicitor empire, then they had five minutes of full autonomy, and then the Romans came in and were like, psyched.
11:47
[SPEAKER_00]: so then they became a Roman client state.
11:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
11:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
11:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
11:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And hered the great displaced the last raining has many and client ruler in 37 BCE.
11:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is very important.
12:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Because hered is the king that kicks off the whole Jesus story.
12:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
12:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so the macabees really do lead right into this.
12:14
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
12:15
[SPEAKER_00]: over a hundred year period after the Macabean revolt.
12:19
[SPEAKER_00]: But it does like really
12:22
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, what happened in this revolt leads right into Jesus' times.
12:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
12:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
12:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's just this like so rule of history that you're just like watching the ball and you're like, oh, we let do this and let do this and let do this and let do this.
12:38
[SPEAKER_06]: I will say one thing.
12:39
[SPEAKER_06]: I didn't hear them talk one bit about David's line during the macabees.
12:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
12:45
[SPEAKER_06]: What you would think, as big of a deal as they made of it in the New Testament, that you might see something like that in there.
12:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Although, as listeners are hearing this, they're not going to know that, no, I don't know.
12:59
[SPEAKER_00]: They won't have her first.
13:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, sure.
13:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Matthew chapter one yet.
13:03
[SPEAKER_00]: As I said in the intro, we already read it and and like they came straight out the gate and Matthew saying, and so anyway, Jesus came from David and we were like, whoa, jump scare.
13:16
[SPEAKER_06]: It's just that you would think that that would be a thing that would be still relevant during the macarion times.
13:22
[SPEAKER_06]: Right, because it's certainly apparently relevant that that you know it's beginning of Matthew.
13:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, that we care about David and who comes after.
13:33
[SPEAKER_06]: Right, right.
13:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Just depends on who you ask when.
13:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I mean, if you're a stat if you're reestablishing your due due day in, you know, King them.
13:41
[SPEAKER_06]: You definitely got to figure out where the the David line is, right, the David lines really fucking important, apparently.
13:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that is why both the Jewish and the Protestant faiths do not include macabees because whereas both of those are historical and important for establishing
14:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I just don't train a lot and everything.
14:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas it is important for that, um, it's not very, um, old school Jewish centric.
14:22
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
14:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So, right.
14:24
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why, um, only only the orthodox, yeah, orthodox and Catholic.
14:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And Catholic.
14:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:32
[SPEAKER_00]: included.
14:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So the author of the first book of macabees regards the macabee and revolt as a rising of pious Jews against the solicitor who had tried to eradicate the religion and against the Jews who supported him.
14:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So first macabees was ultimately a political argument.
14:54
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
14:55
[SPEAKER_06]: And it sounded very much that way.
14:57
[SPEAKER_06]: It was a very historical and very much very dry as a political thing, you know.
15:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, the author of the second book of macabees presents the conflict as a struggle, specifically between Judaism and Hellenism.
15:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was more of the religious argument.
15:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
15:16
[SPEAKER_00]: with some social context, but there's very much a religious argument.
15:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, most modern scholars argue that King Antiochus reacted to a civil war between traditionalist Jews in the Judean countryside and Hellenized Jews in Jerusalem, which makes it more of a social argument.
15:41
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and honestly, I can kind of see that perspective, right?
15:46
[SPEAKER_06]: Like you have your Hellenistic Jews who are more in line with what you would want as you're as being the ruler.
15:53
[SPEAKER_06]: And there's a civil war between this and this other sect over here.
15:58
[SPEAKER_06]: So you would obviously join forces of trying to reclaim your
16:04
[SPEAKER_06]: for the people that support you, right?
16:07
[SPEAKER_06]: Like that makes sense in a political standpoint.
16:10
[SPEAKER_06]: So it tracks.
16:12
[SPEAKER_00]: No, totally it does.
16:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, to put it in context of how it might be today, it could be MAGA versus conservatives.
16:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And MAGA versus old school conservatives who are actually Republican, you know?
16:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And both of those originated from the same place,
16:40
[SPEAKER_06]: Like if Magga were to win out, you know, totally, right?
16:43
[SPEAKER_06]: We'd only ever hear the mag aside of thing.
16:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
16:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
16:46
[SPEAKER_06]: That's what we're doing here.
16:47
[SPEAKER_06]: We're hearing only the macabre and side of things.
16:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
16:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
16:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
16:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So other scholars argue that while the rising began as a religious rebellion, it was gradually transformed into a war of national liberation, which kind of makes it an all of the above argument.
17:05
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
17:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what it was.
17:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a civil social thing.
17:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It was political.
17:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It was religious.
17:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a civil war.
17:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
17:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just think it's really interesting that like we're talking about this in terms of
17:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Was it just a historical argument?
17:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, was it just a political thing that happened?
17:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Was it just religion?
17:31
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it was all of the above, as it usually is.
17:33
[SPEAKER_06]: Right, especially back in those times, for sure.
17:36
[SPEAKER_06]: And you can kind of intermix all of those things together, really.
17:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
17:40
[SPEAKER_06]: And we have, we've talked about that all the way through the Old Testament, how what they call God in religion and the laws of God
17:53
[SPEAKER_06]: politics, you know, and it's almost one and the same.
17:56
[SPEAKER_06]: All the way from the old time, I mean, like, from the 22k on, it's it's all politics.
18:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It always is politics.
18:05
[SPEAKER_06]: Just wrapped in God.
18:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
18:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So first macabees is set about a century and a half after the conquest of Judea by the Greeks under Alexander the Greek, Greek, and Alexander the Greek, spit it out, kid.
18:21
[SPEAKER_00]: After Alexander's empire had been divided so that Judea had become part of the Greek Salais the empire, okay?
18:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And and Tyakus had banned many traditional Jewish practices which we already talked about.
18:35
[SPEAKER_00]: He made possession of the Torah capital offense.
18:39
[SPEAKER_00]: He burned copies.
18:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Any copy he could find, he burned.
18:42
[SPEAKER_06]: Book burning is never everything.
18:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Love me a good book burning.
18:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Nice.
18:46
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no.
18:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Reband books you've had.
18:50
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's that's the one.
18:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
18:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Sabots and beasts were banned.
18:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Jewish sabots and beasts were banned.
18:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
18:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Circumcision was outlawed as we said.
19:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Mothers who circumcised their babies were killed
19:05
[SPEAKER_06]: And I didn't realize it was all up there whole family.
19:08
[SPEAKER_06]: That's crazy.
19:08
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
19:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Specifically the mother and the baby, but often family.
19:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Saying that, but yeah, often it was the whole family.
19:15
[SPEAKER_06]: Wow.
19:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, think about it.
19:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
19:17
[SPEAKER_06]: Family me the choice, I guess, right?
19:19
[SPEAKER_06]: So you're gonna pay the price.
19:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, okay.
19:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So the mother has the baby, right?
19:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And she has the baby circumcised.
19:26
[SPEAKER_00]: If there's other children, if their boys, their circumcised, so they got to go.
19:30
[SPEAKER_00]: If their girls will girls are trash, we hate girls.
19:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Girls are gross.
19:35
[SPEAKER_00]: The only thing worse than being anything is being a girl, right?
19:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So kill them too.
19:41
[SPEAKER_00]: The father, I mean, how could he be so unmannedly as to let all this
19:50
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the thinking that went into it.
19:56
[SPEAKER_06]: That trust wife she was there.
19:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I was there.
19:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
20:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I would know, um, yeah, so they also had traditional Jewish ritual sacrifice was forbidden, like, you know, they would kill the goats and whatever, the fuck, all those animals and splatter the blood on different sides.
20:17
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that was for sure.
20:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, don't do those anymore.
20:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
20:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Israel's Israelites set up alters to Greek gods and sacrificed unclean animals on them.
20:29
[SPEAKER_06]: Man.
20:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
20:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So they weren't so much.
20:32
[SPEAKER_06]: It's all about which walls you splatter that fucking blood on.
20:34
[SPEAKER_06]: You know?
20:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, when in Greece do Greece, right?
20:37
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what they were like grease seems cool and an idol of Olympian Zeus was placed on the altar of the temple And that's all what resulted in the macabee and the revolt got it.
20:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the book.
20:51
[SPEAKER_06]: It has no Zeus up in here.
20:52
[SPEAKER_00]: No, get a Zeus to fuck out
20:55
[SPEAKER_00]: whatever.
20:56
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, there was a the wasn't it it was in macabees.
20:59
[SPEAKER_06]: Wasn't it where there is the fucking dude with the livy mold shit and like.
21:03
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
21:03
[SPEAKER_06]: That's fucking zoo.
21:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It was very zoo.
21:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
21:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It was very Greek.
21:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
21:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It was very Greek gods.
21:10
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
21:10
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
21:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Another time, um, one of them was like all clad and white and gold and he had a big giant sword and he wrote in on his
21:20
[SPEAKER_00]: giant fucking white horse, it was so Greek.
21:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, you also elinized.
21:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Get the fuck out of here.
21:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
21:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Madethias, that has manain, was a rural Jewish priest.
21:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And he sparked the revolt against the Salais and Empire by refusing to worship the Greek gods.
21:42
[SPEAKER_00]: But those Greek gods still snuck in there.
21:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Telling you.
21:46
[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, you know, yeah, well, we have.
21:50
[SPEAKER_06]: Any other culture that is mixed with another right there's going to be some crossover whether you want there to be or not it just happens you just painted them a different color and gave them a different name it's the same fucking We're talking about the imaginary figure right if you how are you going to keep
22:06
[SPEAKER_00]: the influence out of your you have to keep it out of your mind now the writer's minds and like there's no way to do that look it reminds me of when people were losing their goddam ever loving minds when we had little mermaid be played by Chloe no not Chloe hally who's black and how can we have the little mermaid be black right
22:32
[SPEAKER_00]: You just can't, right?
22:34
[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I don't care.
22:35
[SPEAKER_00]: You cannot have her may be black, right?
22:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, I'm so sorry.
22:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you legitimately telling me that this imaginary character that was created?
22:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Mermaids, which are not real, that they have a race.
22:49
[SPEAKER_00]: They have a skin color.
22:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
22:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Biologically, we're assigned a skin color that you are in charge of.
22:55
[SPEAKER_00]: You human are in charge of.
22:58
[SPEAKER_00]: get the fuck out of here, mermaids aren't real, they could be any, they could be green.
23:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care.
23:04
[SPEAKER_00]: They could be whatever the fuck color they want to be.
23:05
[SPEAKER_00]: True, because they're protected.
23:07
[SPEAKER_06]: I wouldn't have caused as much controversy if they were green.
23:09
[SPEAKER_00]: She's grace.
23:10
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm just saying.
23:11
[SPEAKER_06]: You know I'm right.
23:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It's true, but the point is that like,
23:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Always we're arguing the wrong things, like you're so racist, you don't even know how racist you are.
23:25
[SPEAKER_00]: If you think that having a black mermaid is a fucking problem.
23:29
[SPEAKER_00]: The problem is not the black mermaid.
23:30
[SPEAKER_00]: The problem is the mermaid and you.
23:33
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
23:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Because mermaids aren't real.
23:35
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
23:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And neither is God.
23:40
[SPEAKER_00]: The end.
23:40
[SPEAKER_06]: No, not the after high mermaid here.
23:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes,
23:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, the revolt involved many battles in which the Macabee enforces gained notoriety among the Salaised army for their use of gorilla tactics.
23:57
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, but that like running underneath elephants.
23:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just going to say they had all the fucking elephants and then that one guy, he became a fucking martyr.
24:05
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
24:06
[SPEAKER_00]: We should be celebrating him.
24:07
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
24:08
[SPEAKER_00]: After the victory, the macabens entered Jerusalem in triumph, and originally cleansed the temple, restablishing the traditional Jewish worship there, and installing high priest Jonathan macabee.
24:23
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
24:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
24:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was one of, um, metathias's sons.
24:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
24:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So high priest Jonathan.
24:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
24:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Jonathan Aphis.
24:33
[SPEAKER_00]: What's his name?
24:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
24:34
[SPEAKER_00]: We also don't forget had Judas the hammer.
24:38
[SPEAKER_00]: No way.
24:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Judah the hammer.
24:39
[SPEAKER_00]: We had Judas Macabees was was a guy.
24:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
24:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Jonathan Aphis was the
24:50
[SPEAKER_06]: I don't, I don't recall due to the hammer.
24:52
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where the name Macabee came from.
24:54
[SPEAKER_06]: Oh, okay.
24:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we had a whole thing about that.
24:58
[SPEAKER_00]: We did, but it was several months ago.
25:00
[SPEAKER_06]: So I think I had it.
25:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not surprised if you don't remember.
25:03
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
25:04
[SPEAKER_00]: but also Simon Thossie, Simon was one of the brothers.
25:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And his name was Simon Thossie or Simon Thossie.
25:16
[SPEAKER_00]: He became the high priest, military commander and ruler of Israel.
25:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember like after.
25:22
[SPEAKER_06]: He was the very political one.
25:23
[SPEAKER_00]: he was a very political wife.
25:25
[SPEAKER_00]: He was savvy.
25:26
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
25:26
[SPEAKER_00]: He was just trying to just like, chillax, like whatever.
25:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
25:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Simon's son, John Herkness, Herkiness.
25:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
25:37
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the one that like he came in and superseded Simon.
25:44
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
25:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
25:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And he started the next
25:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Empire, I guess the her her her Canadian empire came next.
25:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then it was the last Jedi.
25:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that is correct.
25:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Bingo ding ding ding ding.
26:01
[SPEAKER_00]: The first book of macabees also gives a list of Jewish colonies scattered elsewhere throughout the Mediterranean at the time.
26:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is really interesting because you kind of forget that there's like all these other Jewish colonies after the diaspora.
26:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
26:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you kind of forget that, oh, yeah, there's all these other people everywhere, like spread out, you know, and so the first book of macabees gives you a list of those.
26:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
26:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is really important historically.
26:31
[SPEAKER_00]: The author of first macabees is anonymous and unknown.
26:36
[SPEAKER_00]: He wrote in the post independence has many in kingdom.
26:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably is early as around 134 BCE.
26:45
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
26:46
[SPEAKER_00]: All scholars agree that the book was definitely composed by a single author and written before 63 BCE.
26:55
[SPEAKER_00]: We are sure when, but.
26:57
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
26:57
[SPEAKER_06]: But it was written within probably a lifetime of of when these things happened or at least close to it.
27:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
27:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
27:05
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was definitely no matter what happened before 63 BCE because he shows great admiration toward Rome in his letters.
27:14
[SPEAKER_00]: and he doesn't know about the Roman general Pompey when I talk about him and he didn't know that that guy conquered Jerusalem and reduced the Heismanian kingdom to a client state of the Roman Republic that.
27:30
[SPEAKER_06]: So yeah, they were still friends back then.
27:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
27:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So definitely was written before 63 BCE.
27:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
27:36
[SPEAKER_00]: OK.
27:37
[SPEAKER_00]: The author was likely a court historian or equivalent.
27:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And appears to be very familiar with Judea and his geography.
27:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But he's not as such well-imformed about the wider Hellenistic world.
27:50
[SPEAKER_06]: OK.
27:51
[SPEAKER_06]: So that was very much just an account of the Maccabee and happening sort of, so I mean, sure.
27:59
[SPEAKER_06]: That makes sense.
28:00
[SPEAKER_00]: But he did mention other things that happened outside of that as long as it had impacted.
28:05
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
28:05
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, but more is just like a side note type deal.
28:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So second macabees was originally written in Greek by an unknown diaspora Jew living in Hellenistic Egypt.
28:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
28:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
28:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So he was a Greek Jew.
28:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
28:21
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what we're trying to say here.
28:23
[SPEAKER_00]: It was likely written sometime between 150 and 100 BCE.
28:28
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
28:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It's generally considered that the work must have been written no later than the 70s BCE.
28:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
28:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Given that the author seems unaware that Pompey would defeat the Heismanan kingdom.
28:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
28:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And make Judea a Roman protector.
28:44
[SPEAKER_06]: It's actually surprising to me because of the way the wording, the way things are, like, the re-emphasizing of God and all this way.
28:53
[SPEAKER_00]: It seemed like there was more time between them, but that wasn't.
28:56
[SPEAKER_06]: That's very interesting to me actually.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Me too.
29:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought that there would be like 100 to 200 years between.
29:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
29:03
[SPEAKER_00]: But they were actually pretty much written.
29:05
[SPEAKER_00]: They were the same time for it.
29:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like almost back to back.
29:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Even those second macabees is not a sequel.
29:13
[SPEAKER_06]: Right, and I guess it does make some sense in retrospect because there's no like you said there's no mention of the Romans.
29:20
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no like that that letter of what could we be friends right right.
29:25
[SPEAKER_06]: So they were still innocent of like what was going to happen.
29:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they had no idea.
29:30
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's that's interesting.
29:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
29:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's considered, um, oh, never mind.
29:37
[SPEAKER_00]: The author of Second Macbees, much like first, is not identified, but he claims to be abridging a five volume work by Jason of Sireen, which I will talk about him briefly in a second, because we did mention him more than once.
29:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was important to be like, who does Jason guy?
29:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
29:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And what is his five volume work?
29:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
30:00
[SPEAKER_00]: but second macabees author was like borrowing from it and quoting it and talking about it.
30:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So the author appears to be an Egyptian Jew, possibly writing from the capital of Alexandria, addressing other diaspora Jews.
30:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why his was more religious.
30:19
[SPEAKER_05]: got it.
30:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Second Macabees has traditionally been considered a somewhat lesser source on the history of the Macabam revolt than first Macabees by secular historians.
30:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, yeah, obviously.
30:32
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and it would only like second Macabees only really covers the first section of what first Macabees cover.
30:38
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, first Macabees covers quite a large swath of time.
30:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.
30:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
30:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, they're, they're both interesting.
30:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I think like I'm really glad we read them.
30:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
30:50
[SPEAKER_00]: They're both interesting from different perspectives.
30:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
30:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think they're both really important to history.
30:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Definitely.
30:56
[SPEAKER_06]: Um, so one more for history than the other, but you know,
31:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
31:01
[SPEAKER_00]: When I say important to history, I mean, looking at why they were written, looking at how they were written, who wrote them, what the intention was, who they were writing them for.
31:14
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I mean.
31:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Not that the information contained therein was necessarily historically accurate.
31:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
31:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm looking at it more as a literary importance than a historical importance if that makes sense.
31:29
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
31:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so let's talk about that Jason guy.
31:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Jason of Syreen.
31:34
[SPEAKER_00]: He was a Hellenistic Jew.
31:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So he was Greek who lived around the middle of the second century BCE, sometime between 160 and 110 BCE.
31:45
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
31:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
31:46
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the author of the five volume history of the Maccabee and Revolt.
31:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.
31:51
[SPEAKER_00]: and it's preceding events.
31:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So he was writing about the time period between 178 to 160 BCE.
32:01
[SPEAKER_00]: But the work became lost.
32:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a lost work.
32:06
[SPEAKER_00]: The only reason that we know anything about it is because the macabees referenced it and quoted it and talked about it.
32:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And they were like, as you know, from Jason's great text.
32:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're like, who the fuck is Jason?
32:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, you know, Jason.
32:24
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
32:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're like, oh.
32:27
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
32:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Apparently.
32:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Jason, I'll try again.
32:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
32:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
32:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And his great work.
32:32
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
32:33
[SPEAKER_00]: He sure did.
32:34
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
32:34
[SPEAKER_00]: While he was Greek speaking, he still favored the rubble macabees in the revolt against the Salais and Empire, which is really interesting.
32:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So he was like not part of the quote-unquote progressive
32:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Jews that were wanting to be Hellenistic.
32:56
[SPEAKER_00]: He was like, no, fuck that.
32:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Even though he was part of them socially.
33:01
[SPEAKER_00]: He was part of them socially, but did not leave in them religiously and politically.
33:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just, I thought that was super interesting.
33:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:12
[SPEAKER_00]: diaspora Jews had spread through Tolomeic lands in this era, so through Egypt,
33:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So him being from Cyrene is totally plausible, and the long-standing Tulumaeic rivalry with the psilasids that had resulted in the Syrian wars, would have meant that supporting the macabees and opposing the psilasids would have aligned with the politics of the government where he lived.
33:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So there would be little fear of censorship.
33:43
[SPEAKER_00]: He could write whatever he wanted.
33:44
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
33:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was like,
33:47
[SPEAKER_00]: totally, yeah, that makes sense.
33:49
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
33:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So, um, anyway, that's enough about the macabees.
33:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's get into some your always wrong.
33:57
[SPEAKER_06]: So, contradictions.
33:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Contradiction.
33:59
[SPEAKER_06]: Contradiction.
33:59
[SPEAKER_06]: We're going to send a one episode today.
34:00
[SPEAKER_00]: We are because there's not a lot because here's the thing.
34:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have actual questions for you to choose.
34:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not wrong today.
34:08
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
34:09
[SPEAKER_00]: because there aren't clean contradictions between first and second macabees versus the Hebrew Bible.
34:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
34:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And that makes me really sad because you know, I love calling you wrong.
34:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
34:24
[SPEAKER_00]: But in this case,
34:26
[SPEAKER_00]: They just don't cover the same material.
34:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's not a lot of them.
34:31
[SPEAKER_06]: It's harder to have the predictions, sure.
34:33
[SPEAKER_06]: Makes sense.
34:34
[SPEAKER_00]: There are, however, some issues between the texts worth mentioning.
34:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's what I'm bringing to the table for quote-unquote contradictions, OK?
34:48
[SPEAKER_00]: One of these, and I put these in order of how they appear in the macadudos.
34:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
34:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So, there are apparent historical discrepancies with earlier Old Testament accounts, for example, in first macabees.
35:06
[SPEAKER_00]: that has a feeling of contradiction with Daniel, the Daniel, because in Tykes the Fourth of Piffinese sets up the abomination of desolation.
35:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember how much I love that phrase?
35:22
[SPEAKER_00]: That has a conflict with the OT, because Daniel describes similar events, but any much more symbolic and prophetic framework.
35:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So these are really contradictions so much as they're different genres, history versus a apocalyptic prophecy, they're describing overlapping events, they're just describing them from different moods.
35:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, got it.
35:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's kind of the stuff that we've got going on here.
35:53
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are some better examples here.
35:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, in second macabees, we that the part where we have the seven brothers.
36:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
36:04
[SPEAKER_06]: You remember that they wanted my frying pan and stuff?
36:07
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
36:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:09
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got like martyrdom and resurrection theology happening in this story, right?
36:16
[SPEAKER_00]: There's explicit statements about bodily resurrection and eternal reward or punishment.
36:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Great.
36:22
[SPEAKER_00]: That's weird.
36:24
[SPEAKER_00]: That's weird.
36:25
[SPEAKER_06]: Which is why I thought that maybe Second Mac News was written much later.
36:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
36:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Interesting wording.
36:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It really was this conflicts with the Old Testament in that Resurrection is only hinted at in text like Daniel and earlier Old Testament books are much less explicit about the afterlife, about any kind of afterlife.
36:50
[SPEAKER_06]: There was somebody that was resurrected in the Old Testament.
36:55
[SPEAKER_06]: I remember that the
36:56
[SPEAKER_06]: Please hovered over them or something like that.
36:58
[SPEAKER_06]: That was something weird, but I can't remember exactly what it was weird.
37:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't the norm.
37:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It was weird.
37:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's why
37:07
[SPEAKER_00]: This is, again, like, that doesn't really fit with the majority of what the Old Testament's about.
37:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Like most of the Old Testament was about listen.
37:19
[SPEAKER_00]: This is how we live our life to be clean, we need to follow these fucking rules.
37:24
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, I will say this, that by the time we get to this timeframe with Judaism, and especially as now we're heading into the New Testament,
37:32
[SPEAKER_06]: the ideas of what Judaism is versus what it was, have evolved quite a bit.
37:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that actually is pretty much my summarizing statement on it.
37:43
[SPEAKER_00]: No, sorry.
37:43
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's so true.
37:45
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so true.
37:46
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing that I find interesting with regard to this is,
37:52
[SPEAKER_00]: The Old Testament is more about, look, this is how we live.
37:57
[SPEAKER_00]: We follow these rules.
37:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Otherwise, our future generations will get punished, right?
38:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And we care about our family, we care about our kids and our grandkids and our future progeny, right?
38:09
[SPEAKER_00]: But as we get closer to the end of the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible, and we start approaching Jesus' land.
38:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
38:16
[SPEAKER_00]: We care less about our children being punished and the future generations, and it's more about us personally being punished in the afterlife.
38:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
38:27
[SPEAKER_00]: It changes from family to personal involvement.
38:35
[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost as though you can look at this and see that the focus of care changes.
38:45
[SPEAKER_06]: There's been a societal shift of some type.
38:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Much, much, much.
38:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Where?
38:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Promising a threat to your grandkids and their grandchildren is no longer enough.
38:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
38:57
[SPEAKER_00]: You're no longer scared of that.
38:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You no longer give a flip because you recognize, I'm going to die.
39:03
[SPEAKER_00]: What the fuck do I care what happens to them?
39:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm not going to be here to see it.
39:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that somehow doesn't matter as much.
39:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we need to put some
39:12
[SPEAKER_00]: bigger fear.
39:13
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, I would put it this way.
39:14
[SPEAKER_06]: I mean, the my feelings about it, and I could be completely wrong about this, but with all the times that they've been conquered and re re brought back into the fold and and over and over and over again, right?
39:27
[SPEAKER_06]: the generations down the line probably don't mean as much to them because they don't know if they're going to even be in charge of their own land 100 years now, let alone still be able to be punished by God for whatever they did wrong.
39:40
[SPEAKER_00]: That is true.
39:41
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
39:41
[SPEAKER_06]: Like time frame shortened when you're always worried about your enemies that are on the other side of the border.
39:46
[SPEAKER_06]: Right?
39:47
[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's so true.
39:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It really is.
39:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It just changes the focus to what you can afford to be
39:57
[SPEAKER_06]: That, yeah, I like that, um, immediate threats versus generational threats, you know, right, right, generational threats would have been more like we're worried about the crops in four years and whether we're going to be able to tie this through for that whole time frame or whatever, right?
40:13
[SPEAKER_06]: So the threats changed and so society changed.
40:17
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's so true it's just I don't know I just I find that so interesting the entire shift their entire religion shifted right and you can see it in the way Oh, yeah, I can just thinking back on what we read I can see it in my mind, you know, I can see how I changed.
40:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
40:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so this is a clear development in belief and change in the way the beliefs system is structured.
40:47
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
40:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Not necessarily a quote unquote full on contradiction.
40:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
40:52
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
40:52
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
40:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, next one is a really big one, though.
40:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
40:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Prayers and offerings for the dead.
40:59
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
40:59
[SPEAKER_00]: In second Macabees, Judas Macabees collects money to offer a sin offering for fallen soldiers who died wearing pagan amulets.
41:11
[SPEAKER_00]: the text explicitly says it's a holy and pious thought to pray for the dead so that they might be freed from sin, okay?
41:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Where do you get that idea from?
41:23
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I don't know.
41:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody fucking knows, right?
41:25
[SPEAKER_00]: That conflicts with the Old Testament because the Hebrew Bible never endorses post-mortematon man.
41:31
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
41:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, no.
41:33
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that's the first.
41:34
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
41:34
[SPEAKER_00]: tech-trake songs and ecclesiasties and a few others, they 100% emphasize hard that the dead are inactive.
41:45
[SPEAKER_00]: They're cut off for a more ship.
41:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
41:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Dead body is dead body.
41:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
41:49
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't need to worry about praying for their dead body because their souls out is gone.
41:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
41:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I find interesting about that is I've always had a problem with
42:00
[SPEAKER_00]: funeral services, how we particularly questions, how they really
42:08
[SPEAKER_00]: do the whole funeral thing, and I'm like, but you told me that the spirit ain't in that body no more.
42:14
[SPEAKER_00]: What the fuck matters, what you do to that body?
42:16
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
42:17
[SPEAKER_00]: But they like get very religiousy about it.
42:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's just so weird.
42:22
[SPEAKER_06]: Imagine that religion's getting religiousy.
42:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I just like, I don't understand, like, the body is just the shell.
42:28
[SPEAKER_00]: You told me so.
42:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
42:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what are you doing with it?
42:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do you give a shit?
42:32
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
42:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm not seeing desecrate bodies, okay?
42:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm not out here trying to say, let's take a bat to corpses.
42:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, or whatever, I'm just like,
42:44
[SPEAKER_06]: Why does it so important?
42:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
42:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
43:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
43:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
43:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
43:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
43:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
43:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
43:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
43:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
43:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
43:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
43:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is it so popular?
43:06
[SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, I don't have as, I, the viewing to me and maybe this is my own sentiments, but I, I appreciate it for a one last chance to say goodbye to the person that you loved.
43:20
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, like, there is, there is a, there is something to it in a way that is, but they're not there.
43:29
[SPEAKER_06]: But it can for the person that still alive can feel very spiritual and very,
43:37
[SPEAKER_06]: You get a chance to connect one last time even though they're dead, right?
43:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I hear you.
43:43
[SPEAKER_06]: Like, hey, this is my person.
43:45
[SPEAKER_06]: I love them.
43:46
[SPEAKER_06]: I get to see them one last time before never again.
43:49
[SPEAKER_06]: You never get to see them again.
43:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I hear that.
43:51
[SPEAKER_00]: But.
43:52
[SPEAKER_06]: What I'm not spiritual, sorry, I'm not spiritual, I'm not, you know, but I, but I, but I do understand that aspect of it.
44:00
[SPEAKER_06]: Sorry, go to the third time.
44:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
44:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
44:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I hear you, but what I equate that to is how, like, this is an analogy, okay, how, like,
44:15
[SPEAKER_00]: January 1st, that is when we do resolutions and it has to be on that day, and it can be on any day, but we attach significance to a beginning.
44:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And we attach significance to this is the final moment that you will see this body.
44:34
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll never see it again.
44:35
[SPEAKER_06]: Right, right now.
44:37
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's just like
44:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I think about it.
44:42
[SPEAKER_06]: It really is arbitrary because it but funerals and and wakes and all these things.
44:47
[SPEAKER_06]: They're all even celebrations of life.
44:49
[SPEAKER_06]: All these things are Hard meant for the people that are still alive.
44:53
[SPEAKER_06]: Not the person this dead exactly.
44:55
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
44:56
[SPEAKER_06]: I mean no matter how you cut it.
44:57
[SPEAKER_06]: That's that's what it's about.
44:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
44:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're right.
45:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, the sacrificial system in Leviticus is definitely for the living not the dead, right?
45:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So, um, OT is like, what are you even doing macadoon roles?
45:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So this isn't a direct contradiction because there is no, don't ever do this law rate.
45:19
[SPEAKER_05]: Right, right.
45:20
[SPEAKER_00]: But it is definitely a new theological move that we haven't seen before.
45:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is later used, particularly by Catholics, to support ideas like purgatory.
45:33
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure.
45:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is like, where's that in the Old Testament?
45:36
[SPEAKER_00]: That's nowhere.
45:37
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no, no.
45:39
[SPEAKER_00]: The soul is gone.
45:40
[SPEAKER_00]: It's gone.
45:40
[SPEAKER_00]: It's done.
45:41
[SPEAKER_06]: The humans are going to ascribe to their religion whatever they feel like ascribing to it because they want it to be that way that that's what religion is it's it's a belief system that people believe in because they like the belief right you know it's just crazy to me that there are so many beliefs that are built
46:02
[SPEAKER_00]: that aren't supported by their own text.
46:05
[SPEAKER_06]: And they're just, well, there's probably somewhere that it supported somehow.
46:12
[SPEAKER_06]: You might have to contort your the way you view it, but there is somewhere that's going to support these ideas.
46:18
[SPEAKER_06]: It's just a matter of it may or may not be in the regular text that might be in something pseudo-pigrafiler or apocryphal or whatever.
46:27
[SPEAKER_06]: You know, like it could hear in the apocryphal or whatever.
46:32
[SPEAKER_06]: in the normal text.
46:34
[SPEAKER_00]: But that is crazy too.
46:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
46:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
46:37
[SPEAKER_06]: No, I don't disagree.
46:38
[SPEAKER_06]: I'm just saying that I'm sure there's an explanation if you talk somebody that's high up in the Catholic Church.
46:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
46:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But I'm talking about like the average yo-yo.
46:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
46:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Like walking down the street and I'm like, hey, so why do you do that?
46:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Or what do you think that?
46:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like totally not even in the Bible.
46:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Like at all.
46:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, they would argue with you.
47:01
[SPEAKER_06]: Maybe, or they would just say, I don't know.
47:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to ask my, you know, pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-pre-
47:21
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, there's people that pull out the, I forget what it was, but they're recently, there was something where someone quoted something to attribute it to something else.
47:30
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, it was Pete Hexeth quoted the movie pulp fiction.
47:37
[SPEAKER_06]: That's not what I was thinking about.
47:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Thought it was the bite.
47:40
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, yeah, that did happen, but that's not what I was thinking about.
47:43
[SPEAKER_06]: But I'm saying is that people will pull out a section of the Bible or the Old Testament or whatever the hell it is, same thing I guess, but
47:53
[SPEAKER_06]: No, they'll think of peace from the New Testament of the Old Testament, and then they'll say, this thing that's very vague represents this type of thing that we believe in, and it doesn't actually have to, like, it's happening a lot.
48:04
[SPEAKER_06]: And actually, we came across it when we read Matthew, which is coming up for everybody else.
48:09
[SPEAKER_06]: This is listening to this now.
48:10
[SPEAKER_06]: But there was a piece in there where I forget what it was exactly.
48:16
[SPEAKER_06]: We did cover it, I think.
48:18
[SPEAKER_06]: But where there was a bit of
48:22
[SPEAKER_06]: text from the Old Testament that was attributed to something in the New Testament proper prophecy that it was more than one.
48:31
[SPEAKER_00]: They were like prophecy fulfilled and we were like the fuck are you talking about?
48:35
[SPEAKER_06]: But like they used something very vague from the Old Testament.
48:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It was super vague.
48:39
[SPEAKER_06]: Just five of the prophecies basically.
48:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
48:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
48:42
[SPEAKER_06]: So there's stuff like that all through the Bible.
48:45
[SPEAKER_06]: And
48:46
[SPEAKER_06]: It's like it's like seeing promises made promises kept and I'm like, okay, that was not even a promise with a fucker You talking about and how are you saying it was kept because this is like I've never seen a rapture prognostic Nostradamus on fucking TikTok and shit where they're like because the sun X is here and why here and then there's cities here that are named
49:10
[SPEAKER_06]: Whatever you don't be a they have been we're going to have the apocalypse on April 23rd Short three o'clock in the in the afternoon sure don't don't you know No, here's another one that was questionable.
49:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, suicide got framed positively in second macabees when Rosy's kills itself rather than be captured right and the narrative portrayed him as noble and faithful Yeah, but the
49:38
[SPEAKER_00]: That 100% conflicts with the Old Testament, because suicide stories do exist, like in Saul and in Samson, but they are not explicitly praised as righteous acts.
49:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
49:53
[SPEAKER_00]: The Old Testament generally emphasizes life as belonging to God, which is why Catholics,
50:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you are suicide, you do not get to be buried on a holy ground and your soul is not saved.
50:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you're in trouble.
50:11
[SPEAKER_06]: I would imagine that there are a lot of people that believe in God and that are Catholic, especially for second macaroons that would call that a sacrifice and not a suicide.
50:21
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't matter what you think and what the church calls it.
50:25
[SPEAKER_06]: But that's what I'm saying though, I just, I feel like there is a distinction between, I feel like they would make a distinction because of why he did it, because of what was going on in those circumstances.
50:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You think that because you've talked to a lot of priests and I don't want about it, because I think you might be wrong, sir.
50:45
[SPEAKER_06]: why what what because because there's like movies and lots of Hollywood stories about like the Catholics think it very serious no absolutely I'm not saying they don't I'm just saying that's why I'm saying in order to justify that being something that is okay because it is in the Catholic Bible right they probably would reference it as a sacrifice as opposed to a suicide
51:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's what makes it, that's what makes it a contradiction.
51:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they're like, he's okay that he did this, but the Old Testament is like, no, it's really not.
51:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And according to how we practice our religion, it's really not.
51:30
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what makes it a contradiction.
51:31
[SPEAKER_06]: I understand what you're saying, but I'm sure that they justify that.
51:36
[SPEAKER_06]: who are calling it a sacrifice or some other means.
51:40
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, that's, that's what I was giving that.
51:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I see.
51:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I just, I don't know how they get around it.
51:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they most of them probably don't read it.
51:49
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
51:49
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, I mean, whatever.
51:50
[SPEAKER_06]: It doesn't matter.
51:51
[SPEAKER_06]: It's all bullshit.
51:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It is all bullshit.
51:53
[SPEAKER_00]: There is that.
51:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's the last one, um, intercession of the dead with like saints and stuff.
52:02
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
52:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Like in second mecharies, um, there's a vision where the deceased high priest O'Neyes III and the prophet Jeremiah are seeing praying for Israel and even giving a sacred sword.
52:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, guys is coming and we were like, wait, that's your right.
52:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we were like, we were like, we were, I was like, yeah, that Jeremiah, yes, that is correct.
52:29
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, that was weird.
52:29
[SPEAKER_00]: This highly conflicts with the Old Testament because the O.T.
52:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Strictly forbids consulting with the dead, like, do not do it.
52:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
52:39
[SPEAKER_00]: That's spelled out in due to ronomy.
52:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And the story of Saul and the medium in first Samuel portrays contact with the dead very negatively.
52:50
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
52:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know where the fuck they dug that out.
52:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
52:54
[SPEAKER_06]: No, that was interesting.
52:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Very weird.
52:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
52:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, this is not like a direct command.
53:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they did it wrong.
53:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a contradiction.
53:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It is definitely, however, a shift toward ongoing heavenly intercession.
53:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
53:09
[SPEAKER_00]: which we see more and more of.
53:11
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
53:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're in the second chapter of Matthew and we've seen so many fucking angels.
53:20
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I know what to say.
53:21
[SPEAKER_00]: It's weird.
53:22
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
53:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like y'all been talking to what's that guy.
53:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Who was that guy that saw the angels with the eyes and the wheels?
53:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, a ZQ.
53:31
[SPEAKER_00]: ZQ.
53:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
53:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Like y'all been smoking it up with him.
53:34
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
53:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So that is what I have brought to the table for the macadudos.
53:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
53:42
[SPEAKER_00]: You already said this, but I'm going to spit it back out anyway.
53:46
[SPEAKER_00]: At the end of the day, the tension between first macabees, second macabees and early, the earlier Hebrew Bible.
53:55
[SPEAKER_00]: is really akin to watching a belief system evolve in real time.
54:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you're just, like, as you read through that whole thing, from beginning in Genesis, and then spelling out all the laws in the rest of the Pentatook, and then, like, all the history of all the fucking judges and the kings and whatever, and then all the way up through the prophets,
54:24
[SPEAKER_06]: No, it evolves quite a bit.
54:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It does.
54:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And we got to watch that unfold over five and a half years.
54:30
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah.
54:31
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's a wrap on the Old Testament, my friend.
54:34
[SPEAKER_06]: Do we have one more episode for the macamies or is this this is it all I was going to give it.
54:40
[SPEAKER_06]: Oh, okay.
54:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
54:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so over.
54:43
[SPEAKER_06]: So we're.
54:43
[SPEAKER_06]: So the next episode after this one's going to be for for regular.
54:47
[SPEAKER_00]: The prep of who Matthew got it.
54:51
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay, all right, why you.
54:53
[SPEAKER_06]: You had talked about there is another episode.
54:54
[SPEAKER_06]: I couldn't remember what it would be.
54:56
[SPEAKER_06]: But we're done with the old test.
54:57
[SPEAKER_00]: We're done with the old testament.
54:59
[SPEAKER_06]: Okay.
54:59
[SPEAKER_00]: anything else we do regarding the Old Testament from here on out will be special episodes.
55:05
[SPEAKER_00]: We might like eventually read some sort of piggurpha.
55:11
[SPEAKER_00]: We might get some more like just one-off weird things.
55:14
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, right.
55:15
[SPEAKER_00]: But as far as like reading chapters on an ongoing basis,
55:26
[SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for joining us, guys.
55:28
[SPEAKER_06]: Thanks for reading the Old Testament with us.
55:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
55:31
[SPEAKER_06]: That's a, we're putting a wrap on what this is it.
55:34
[SPEAKER_06]: This is it.
55:35
[SPEAKER_00]: We're done.
55:36
[SPEAKER_00]: We're done.
55:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so, like, I want to be excited and be like, yeah, we did it.
55:42
[SPEAKER_00]: But instead, I'm just like, I'm so done.
55:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's a difference in, I'm done versus I'm done.
55:50
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
55:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and that's how I feel about it.
55:54
[SPEAKER_06]: All right, well, we're sorry that this took a little while to get out, but glad you're still here with us, and we will see you next time for the intro to Matthew.
56:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and it's fun.
56:05
[SPEAKER_06]: All right, all right, we'll see you then.