Latest / Genuin Connections / Genuin Connections: Episode 17 -- Brian Kaminsky, COO at Infillion, at Cannes Lions

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Genuin Connections: Episode 17 -- Brian Kaminsky, COO at Infillion, at Cannes Lions · Genuin Connections

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This is genuine connections featuring
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collaborative conversations about
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community, content, creativity,
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commerce, and the convergence of media
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and marketing.
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>> Brian, welcome
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>> to Genuine Connections. Welcome to Can.
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Although, I don't know if I should be
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welcoming you.
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>> The Heat welcomed me to Can. Well, yes.
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This is um it's a little bit of a uh a
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tinder box for us, both from creativity
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and ideas and connections, but also the
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temperature. Is this this is not your
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first can?
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>> This is not my first can.
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>> Is this the hottest can you remember,
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though?
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>> I I think there's actual statistical uh
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uh u uh recording now that this might be
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even like the hottest like couple of
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days in French history.
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>> Okay.
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>> I think I think that's literally what
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we've heard. There were people from West
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Texas that were like, "Wow, this is
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really hot."
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>> So, we're making history already. Yes.
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>> Um, but I want to talk about not only
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your history, but also the present, what
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you're doing, what you're building, and
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just get your general take on
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>> all things that are happening in our
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industry.
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>> Awesome.
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>> So, welcome again. Thank you for being
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here. Um, CAN is one of these really
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unique experiences where we bring
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together the creative, the technology,
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the media, and it all really focuses on
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progress and innovation. In your time
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here so far, besides just running on
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probably minimal sleep, some coffee, and
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maybe even some rosé. Um, what are some
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of the things that are powering or
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inspiring for you personally and
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professionally? I think I think it's
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really uh we forget I think coming from
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the adtech side and from the media side
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and the publishing side that this is a
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an event that's really about the
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creatives. We kind of co-opt it a little
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bit. We kind of take it over and we sell
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a bunch of stuff and like there's a
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creative award show that like we don't
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talk about too much.
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>> But uh I've been really um uh impressed
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by Ken's sort of acknowledgement that
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>> uh retail media in particular is this
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growing phenomenon. I think uh it's
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reached something like 71 billion
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dollars in the US alone making it the
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fastest growing channel. And this year
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actually the Lion the award group turned
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around and said we're going to introduce
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new categories next year that are
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specific just to retail media. One award
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>> it's a category defining event.
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>> Exactly right. And I think they're
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acknowledging what retail media is is
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really about, which is about the
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creativity that they can use and the
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data that's powering it. It's not just
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about like instore shopping. It's the
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data that gets kicked out of it that I
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think is really exciting. And so they've
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created these two new awards, not for
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this year, but for next year that are
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going to be specific to retail media as
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a category. and that you have to prove
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in order to win the award that you used
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firstparty data to drive the creative
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and to drive the actual business
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outcomes. And to me that is like super
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exciting. Much more exciting like AI is
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cool and I love to talk about AI and
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>> we'll get there. Yeah,
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>> I'm sure we will. But I do think that uh
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from from my perspective, this fastest
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growing channel, a place that the
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company I work at now in Philly uh has
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really embraced uh and made a really
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significant investment in, I think
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that's super exciting. I think it's that
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like, okay, creativity, yes, but also
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it's about this category that's growing
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and matters to the business, not just
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about someone's cool TV commercial,
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right? And that data and measurement are
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driving that award. So, I think that's
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fun. Art is always subjective but there
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are ways to measure how it makes us
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feel. Now there are literally data
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points and proof points and provable
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viable ways that we can ascertain
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whether something I mean effectiveness
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there are effectiveness awards. So next
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year that'll be interesting to see who
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submits who wins and what that
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nomination and evaluation criteria even
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includes. Like like I said, I just I
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think it's really interesting that it's
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it's a creative award, but it's not just
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about the creatives. It's got to be
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about the infrastructure and the
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machinery and the data that goes into
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it. And to me, that's bringing together
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what like like I said, I feel like we
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kind of co-opted this event a little
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bit. And I feel like this really brings
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it together and that's been energizing
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for me.
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>> Okay. So, you've been here before. Um
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and within the last what year or so,
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you've taken on this new role as COO?
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>> Less than seven months now. Or just it's
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just eight months now, I think. Yeah.
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>> So for anyone who doesn't live in an org
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chart in the in in our space or or
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understand exactly what the role of a
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COO plays at an organization like yours
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because Infilion is has really
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>> grown as our industry has grown both in
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as a leader and an innovator. But now
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what are you bringing to this role and
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what is expected of you?
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>> Oh god so much is expected of me. I
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can't deliver on any of that. But what
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I'm going to do, um, that's a joke. Um,
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I'm there to provide like an operational
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backbone. I'm there to provide, um, uh,
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sort of discipline around. So, let's
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talk about Infilion for a second. So,
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I'm the CEO of Infilian. Infilion is a
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company that has been built by acquiring
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several very substantial media and
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technology brands.
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>> Use the word composable, right? I
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promise. Oh, you're
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>> I'll get beat up if I don't if I don't
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use the word composable, but it's true.
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It really is. So, so Infilian is
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bringing together of some really
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high-profile companies, Media Math,
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especially Catalina, our most recent
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acquisition, which is uh why I talk
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about retail media so uh so
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passionately. Uh we've got the uh the
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gimbal business, which is location. All
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in all, we've compiled about 11
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different companies. Um, and we have
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taken all of those companies, stripped
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them down into their rawest, most
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composable assets. Think of it as like a
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periodic table, right? Like in order to
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build the elements,
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>> the elements need to come together as
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compounds.
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>> In order to build compounds and so
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that's what we've done. We've stripped
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all this stuff down. We've re-engineered
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it and we've actually MCP enabled it so
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that it is ready for agentic buying. And
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by doing this, we've actually took all
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of this great infrastructure all the way
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from the planning process through to
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buying through to measurement and said,
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"Look, we're not gluing together a bunch
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of stuff and making you buy one
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monolithic sort of um you know rigid
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stack. We are creating this set of
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assets with composability at its core so
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that you as a marketer, an advertiser or
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as a partner, someone who wants to
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leverage those platform pieces can build
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from it what you need. If your focus is
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on the upfront side of making a media
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plan come together, then you could bring
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only the assets that we provide that
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make that possible. If you're really
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interested in just the delivery and bid
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optimization, we have the assets that
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you can use to make that work for your
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particular system, but you don't have to
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use the parts up front and you don't
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have to necessarily use the parts on the
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back end. And I think that's one of the
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things that people were struggling with.
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switching costs were very high because
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integrations were brutal,
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>> timely and resource
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>> and trying to figure out well I want
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this whole thing but I don't need X and
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Y. I just need the Z piece and I need Z
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to do it a little bit differently. That
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was very difficult to do. It was an
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impediment to adopting new technologies.
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it was impeded to changing uh to get the
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best of breed partners and our our
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philosophy is that this kind of
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composable concept allows whether like I
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said whether it's a buyer of media or
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someone who's actually a seller of media
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uh and wants to use our platform in
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order to to deliver it and uh and make
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it come to life for their customer base
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they're not locked into using all of the
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pieces and because in this
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re-engineering process we sort of
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structured it for this next generation
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of media buying which is not just people
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talking to each other, not machines
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talking to each other, but like data
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being shared between different
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components, right? So it's the strategy
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manifests from insights. Those insights
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manifest into instructions that you put
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into the machine. The machine has to go
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ahead and do something that optimizes
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for the experience and hopefully learns
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from it. More and more humans are not
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going to be able to do that in real
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time. We need the agents to step in and
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facilitate. And so this MCP layering of
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everything allows us to take each one of
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those components and make it accessible
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through these agents that are going to
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like facilitate what I think is going to
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be really a uh an exponential leveling
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up of the quality of delivery that all
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these platforms.
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>> Yeah. and facilitating the internal
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tools, processes, and outputs, but also
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in a way that connects to get the best
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out of what others have built and really
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optimize against not just the power of
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whatever is within your owned
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>> Yeah.
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>> ecosystem, which includes technology and
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humanity, but everyone's
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>> and and we don't know that necessarily
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our agent is the right agent for those
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customers. We want to work with this,
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we're agnostic, right? So we want to
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work with as many partners who produce
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solutions specifically for the media
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industry whether it's on the you know
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upfront planning side on the delivery
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side optimization side for performance
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or even on the measurement side we're
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not going to be leading and oh I think I
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touched the mic we're not going to be
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best of breed necessarily for all of
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those at least not right away and so
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we've provided our own agents that can
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go soup to nuts or again leaning back
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into this composable uh concept if you
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want to use a particular agent with a
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particular specialty or if you've built
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one yourself, we welcome it. We want the
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platform to be able to facilitate it.
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>> And that's where as we look forward, I
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think there is a more crystallizing, if
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it's not fully clear yet, idea of what
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those opportunities look like, where
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they come from, and even your customer,
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the or you know, the the umbrella
10:02
concept of your customer, right? They're
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they're all different ways of different
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but the marketer and I'm making air
10:10
quotes is traditionally someone that
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relies on others for understanding and
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innovating with technology but I think
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that's becoming increasingly
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part of the job description. Is that
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education for that audience a priority
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for how you're communicating? Yeah. For
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the marketer specifically?
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>> Absolutely. I I don't I don't think you
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can. And so it's really interesting. Um,
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one of the things I've heard to the last
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two days now or three days now is that
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everybody loves AI. Everybody's really
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excited about it. People still have a
10:46
lot of trepidation, but what's become
10:48
obvious is that a lot of places just
10:49
leaped in, embraced it, and are using it
10:52
a little bit half-hazardly. And the
10:54
costs associated with it are starting to
10:56
get out of control. And so we think that
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part of our role is to a we've we we we
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haven't we so we came out really you
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know how many um endto-end uh models
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came out the week before can uh a agents
11:12
literally full stack full life cycle of
11:16
a campaign agents came out the week
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before can for press releases on big on
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big platforms eight.
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>> Wow
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>> count them eight. So we rolled ours out
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uh because again the whole concept is
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this notion of breaking everything down
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making it MCP enabled. We rolled ours
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out um for CES actually. So it's been in
11:35
market for a long time long time. Um
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>> and AI that's like dog years.
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>> It's forever, right? But we really
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haven't nailed our pricing model yet.
11:45
We're we're leaving it open. Whether you
11:46
want to leverage our uh you know
11:48
particular account, whether you want to
11:50
use your own tokens, whether you want to
11:51
build your own agent, however you want
11:53
that to work, we want that um learning
11:57
experience to be somewhat organic. We
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want to partner with the uh the the
12:03
marketers in particular that want to
12:05
leverage these services. We want to
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partner with the other sellers of media,
12:08
the other channel partners that are
12:10
trying to figure out how to use AI to
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reduce costs, improve their efficiency.
12:16
And so we're looking to help them build
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not their models for their LLMs, but
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like their models of how they deploy
12:23
these things into their operation. How
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do they reduce costs? How do they
12:29
increase the efficiency? if you're not
12:30
even looking to reduce costs, but you've
12:32
got 10 people and you need them to do
12:34
the work of 15. And so we're actively
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working with people to help them
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understand where in their process,
12:40
again, you know, a whole order to cache
12:42
kind of view of things, where you could
12:44
plug in agents, how those agents can
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work with the Infilion transaction
12:49
platform and all of the other uh
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facilities that we've built around that
12:53
so that they can get a better result for
12:55
those media campaigns. And it's it's
12:58
tricky because you still you're still
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teaching people what is MCP? What's the
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difference between MCP and ADCP? What is
13:05
a token? I don't understand. And how do
13:08
I know that what I'm creating is
13:10
governed by the right set of protocols?
13:13
And everyone is speaking the actual same
13:16
language. And maybe it matters, maybe it
13:18
doesn't right now. But to your point,
13:19
the cost of not being involved is high.
13:23
And the cost of being too quick may also
13:25
be high. There's a there's a middle
13:27
there's a middle ground to take again
13:29
which is why I think an agnostic
13:31
approach right now is the healthiest one
13:33
but you have to get serious about it and
13:34
it it can't just be like you know slap
13:37
AI on the end of a company that used to
13:38
be do and pretend it's something
13:40
different you really have to go through
13:42
that process of re-engineering
13:43
everything and understanding your own
13:46
processes where you have opportunities
13:48
where there were bottlenecks before and
13:50
deploy AI in a in a selective way.
13:55
So I think that's a as we look at the
13:58
present and as we've talked about the
13:59
future I want to also take a look back
14:02
and understand what's built your
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operating system in that you know for I
14:08
let's call it several decades at this
14:10
point we can count our careers in
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decades
14:13
>> uh which is you know we've been here
14:14
long enough it's going to happen
14:16
>> but the success that you've had in
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actually building media enterprises
14:22
within I mean iHeart Huffpo, Yahoo,
14:27
Reuters. There are probably more in
14:28
there that are an impressive name. It's
14:30
like a the NASCAR who's my my first job
14:33
out of college was with Blair Television
14:36
uh TV rep firm. I was an assistant uh I
14:39
was a sales assistant. I was a media
14:41
planner at Bu Vista Disney.
14:43
>> Uh and then I took a job very early on
14:45
like 98 at Yahoo. Are there through
14:48
lines as you look at each of those steps
14:50
that not just led to where you are now,
14:53
but either a consistent thread that has
14:57
kept you on the trajectory or
14:59
>> I'm I'm a lapsed seller. Like I think of
15:01
it like being a Catholic. I'm Jewish,
15:03
but like I'm a lapsed like I still like
15:05
kind of live and breathe the seller's
15:07
mentality. I get most excited when
15:10
there's a customer and you're
15:12
brainstorming and trying to demonstrate
15:14
the value proposition of your uh of your
15:17
company, of your product, whatever it
15:18
is. And uh in the very early days at
15:22
Yahoo, we had we rode that big wave up,
15:25
then the bubble broke and we were kind
15:27
of left like with pieces of stuff. And I
15:30
was uh one of the few people uh at least
15:34
in the New York office that was sort of
15:35
a classically trained media person
15:37
because I came from TV and I was a media
15:40
planner and I was I think at like 28 I
15:42
was maybe one of the oldest people in
15:44
the in the organization at the time just
15:46
in New York.
15:47
>> It was a young person's business. Yeah.
15:49
And so and so I also had a master's
15:52
degree in uh uh I had an MBA in in
15:56
finance
15:57
>> and and like somehow like they were like
16:00
listen you're a good salesperson you
16:03
have all the right energy but what we
16:05
want you to help us do is figure out the
16:07
right way to structure this business so
16:10
that when we go to market we present an
16:12
IO the terms and conditions make sense
16:14
the pricing makes sense and that we can
16:16
execute against what we're delivering.
16:18
And so that
16:21
role of translating big ideas into
16:25
operational just manageable uh
16:28
components of the business is something
16:29
I've always done. So from like my third
16:32
or fourth year as a seller, I gave that
16:34
up. I moved over to operations and then
16:36
I've been figuring out how to scale uh
16:38
businesses since then. And and and and
16:41
honestly like that's really what I did
16:43
at iHeart, which was the job I had right
16:46
before Infilian. uh we had acquired six
16:49
or seven different ad tech companies
16:51
that were being
16:54
composably put together I'll say uh to
16:58
service the audio business because none
17:00
of the adtech companies were really
17:01
thinking about audio um we needed to
17:04
service ourselves and make sure that
17:05
what we were building really met our
17:08
specifications and so we acquired our
17:10
way to having it's them now they have
17:13
acquired their way to having what I
17:14
think is one of the most pre-minent
17:16
advertising tech stacks in the industry.
17:18
It just happens to be for audio
17:20
specifically. And so Infilian, not for
17:22
long,
17:23
>> not for long. They're going to they're
17:24
going to branch into video and they're
17:25
going to do a very good job. Still a
17:27
shareholder.
17:28
>> Um,
17:29
but Infilian is doing a lot of the same
17:31
things on a on a different scale and
17:33
with a different philosophy. It's not
17:35
just about one uh particular narrow
17:37
media, but we are acquiring these
17:40
companies, bringing them together,
17:42
creating the right integrations, making
17:44
sure they have a cultural thread that
17:47
makes sense to uh the value proposition
17:49
that the market sees and that the
17:51
employees inside the company can
17:53
appreciate, understand, and help them
17:56
execute their jobs. They they're not
17:57
confused. They're not a Trux Trux
18:00
fantastic company, uh, engagement,
18:03
advertising, um, value exchange. Um, but
18:07
the people who came from Trux, they
18:09
don't think of themselves as Trux
18:10
employees. The people that come from
18:12
Catalina, they don't think of themselves
18:14
as Catalina employees. They think of
18:15
themselves as Infilian employees. And
18:17
that way, we can serve all of these
18:19
personas in sort of a unified coherent
18:21
way.
18:21
>> Yeah. I mean there's there's the
18:22
cultural integration, there's the
18:24
technical integration, there's the
18:26
process-based integration. And I've
18:28
heard Rob say Rob
18:30
>> Rob Emer our our chairman
18:32
>> chairman say that this period in time is
18:35
like a once in a generation or once in a
18:37
20year storm
18:39
>> in terms of what is evolving from
18:41
programmatic into something that is
18:45
>> agentic. And that's a term that we've
18:46
heard a lot this week. It means
18:48
different things to different people
18:50
because agents it's it's like marketing.
18:52
It's like advertising. It's a term that
18:54
encompasses a lot of different
18:55
functions.
18:56
>> But now you're tasked with actually
18:58
bringing agentic to to life.
19:01
>> Yes.
19:02
>> So what does it mean to you the word?
19:04
>> I mean I think it goes back to a little
19:05
bit of what we were saying before. So if
19:06
you think about like the different like
19:08
media was sold like handtoand
19:11
>> then it was sold by rep firms. Then it
19:14
was sold essentially programmatically.
19:16
That would be the third generation which
19:17
was still like human mediation to put
19:19
the deals together but ultimately
19:21
they're being executed on platforms.
19:24
What aentic means is now ultimately the
19:27
and again like agents is a great word. I
19:31
do think of it as data and insights
19:34
being brought to life in a way that
19:36
humans couldn't possibly manage which
19:37
was the whole concept program. Yeah.
19:39
feed volume decision making the ability
19:42
to react to new information as it comes
19:46
across the ability to customize what
19:48
you're going to do with
19:50
let's say there's a singular line item
19:52
and I want to treat that one line item
19:54
three different ways
19:56
you you really can't do that right now
19:58
in the third generation way of operating
20:00
where there's contracts involved even
20:02
with you know good oldfashioned
20:04
programmatic
20:05
you don't have the way to take a
20:07
singular line item and treat it three
20:09
different ways is with Aentic, you have
20:11
that ability. It's now uh turned over to
20:13
machines, turned over to algorithms,
20:16
turned over to data and insights. If you
20:17
just boil it down to its most simple
20:20
core
20:20
>> elemental, you know, the things that
20:22
matter. What is it? It's data and
20:24
insights that are driving outcomes. And
20:26
now you're you're you're not just
20:28
intermediating humans because humans
20:30
still need to think about the strategies
20:31
that are building into it, but now you
20:33
can execute those strategies in a much
20:34
more effective way. And that's what I
20:36
think this next generation, this fourth
20:38
generation of buying that that Rob talks
20:39
about, this agentic powered experience
20:43
is. It's about taking all of these data
20:44
and insights and unleashing them, taking
20:47
them out of the limitations that that
20:48
that people place on them because we're
20:50
we're human.
20:51
>> And in terms of where that comes to
20:54
life, how it manifests, I mean, I've
20:56
infilion talks a lot about the false
20:59
choice between, you know, the
21:01
>> black Yeah. the wall the wall gardens
21:03
and this messy open internet and I don't
21:06
know if that
21:08
>> if there really is an imbalance but
21:10
certainly in terms of the way that
21:12
>> money and investment has flowed in the
21:15
last in the previous two decades it's
21:18
been imbalanced how do we break that how
21:20
do we actually shift that
21:22
>> towards where we think it probably
21:24
belongs
21:25
>> it's a great question I think the real
21:26
difference the real reason there was an
21:28
imbalance right the reason that you know
21:32
Facebook took a disproportionate and and
21:35
search
21:36
>> took a disproportionate amount of
21:37
revenue out of the uh out of the
21:39
ecosystem relative to time spent in
21:42
particular was because they had great
21:43
measurement. They had the data on the
21:45
other side to validate that this
21:47
campaign produced this outcome. Now,
21:49
maybe they gilded the lily a little bit
21:51
on some of that and took credit,
21:53
>> took credit for some stuff that maybe
21:54
they didn't deserve, but nonetheless,
21:56
that's what they had. And I think that's
21:58
one of the reasons why uh Infilian
22:00
bought Catalina is because Catalina has
22:03
at the skew level this treasure trove of
22:07
uh actual in real life consumer shopping
22:11
data. not just e-commerce, but like
22:14
human beings across America going to the
22:17
grocery store and checking out
22:18
individual items. We have that now.
22:21
That's a part of our infrastructure. And
22:22
for for the for the for the CPG
22:24
companies in particular, and this will
22:26
branch into other areas as well as we as
22:28
we grow and as we evolve, but for CPG in
22:31
particular, now instead of being
22:32
dependent on these walled gardens and
22:34
these very siloed ecosystems to know
22:36
what the outcomes were of their media
22:38
campaigns, we actually have that data.
22:40
And so you can plan against the open web
22:44
and have the same level of fidelity that
22:46
you would have in campaign measurement
22:48
on a walt garden but without the walls.
22:50
And so I think that's where in Fillian
22:53
in particular and there are other places
22:54
but in Fillian in particular can help
22:56
companies uh uh open themselves up to
23:00
where uh the vast majority of content
23:03
consumption on the web is happening
23:04
which is on the web and on mobile
23:05
devices. It's not necessarily happening
23:07
on the social networks. it's not
23:09
exclusively happening in search, less
23:10
and less in search all the time. Uh, and
23:13
help people uh really have this holistic
23:16
closed loop measurement for their
23:18
campaigns inclusive of not just rorowass
23:21
but also incrementality and other
23:23
measurements as we go along the way.
23:24
>> So if we take a look at our surround
23:27
of course I buy it. I just want to make
23:29
sure I mean as as we talk about and
23:32
think about and build for the open
23:35
internet with the genuine
23:38
infrastructure and network we are
23:40
>> highly distributed
23:41
>> we're banking on the fact that the
23:44
walled gardens can't deliver on what
23:47
consumer behavior is ultimately evolving
23:49
towards whether it's video consumption
23:51
in a in an environment that's more brand
23:53
safe and trusted
23:55
>> or following that consumer as their
23:58
journey journey goes between right
24:00
different experiences that's what we're
24:02
>> and I think generationally the wall
24:04
gardens are going to be challenged in
24:05
particular the generation that is
24:08
committed to Facebook is getting older
24:10
the generation
24:11
>> the generation that's committed to these
24:13
other platforms regardless of what they
24:15
are they're less interested in the types
24:19
of advertising and marketing that we're
24:21
doing right now I think we'll develop
24:23
new strategies to reach them and talk to
24:24
them um but I do think that there is a
24:27
real need to change that imbalance at
24:30
least for the you know next several
24:32
years and bring a lot of those dollars
24:35
back to the open web back to these
24:38
platforms. Uh I'm not a publisher myself
24:41
like iHeart Media where a lot of time is
24:44
being spent a lot of good interaction is
24:46
happening a lot of brand loyalty can be
24:49
fostered uh and we can provide
24:51
measurement to like prove out that
24:52
that's happening. So as I we're at a
24:55
creative festival as we as we discussed
24:58
right we've we've seen some work already
25:00
there will be more that will be
25:01
celebrated throughout the week but that
25:05
duality of humanity and creativity with
25:09
technology and I don't want to call it
25:12
artificial intelligence but maybe
25:14
singularity
25:15
>> augmented intelligence at the very least
25:18
>> what role does human creativity play in
25:22
what you've defined and described ried
25:24
you know so far
25:25
>> I mean we're still we still have to be
25:26
there to figure out what the value
25:28
proposition is to the consumer we have
25:30
to know what when I say we what give
25:33
credit I'm not a creative like I've been
25:35
in operations and sales my whole career
25:37
I have had creative flashes but I don't
25:39
sit there and think about uh the way
25:42
consumers uh uh engage with a product
25:44
what what draws in their loyalty what
25:47
makes a little kid ask their parent for
25:49
a particular product and I think we as
25:52
the humans are still there to really
25:54
kind of a uh analyze and understand and
25:58
apply the way those things come to life
26:01
and also to to maybe help shape that
26:03
story and maybe lead consumers a little
26:05
bit to tell them the things that we
26:07
maybe and I don't know how healthy this
26:09
is
26:09
>> influence human driven
26:11
>> but it's important we have to teach
26:13
people why they want the products that
26:14
we're bringing to market and I think
26:16
that's still
26:17
>> it's actual intelligence AI to human is
26:20
actual intelligence
26:21
>> actual intelligence I like that I like
26:23
that we should tell people who's talking
26:24
back.
26:25
>> So get cameo from uh genuine CEO and
26:29
founder.
26:29
>> That's literally the voice of God there.
26:32
We have an audience here. So uh as we do
26:35
at live events bringing real people
26:37
together.
26:38
>> So just to say it like I still think
26:39
that the creative types even on the
26:42
sales side to think of really unique
26:44
sales strategies uh to to understand
26:47
where operational
26:48
>> humanto human connection.
26:49
>> Yeah. where operational practices need
26:51
improvement. All of those things still
26:53
need to be guided by people. I think
26:55
it's the agents and the AI and the
26:57
technology that can step in there and do
26:59
things faster, more efficiently, help us
27:02
course correct. But but then again, and
27:04
I'll say the obvious, which is like you
27:06
have to have some some some
27:09
flock tending of what these agents are
27:11
going to do there. you still like, you
27:14
know, you still need two prompts to get
27:15
a reasonable response out of Claude when
27:18
it's just writing a simple email. So,
27:20
I'm not willing and I think most
27:22
business people are not yet willing to
27:24
turn over the entire uh budget of a
27:27
particular large-scale advertiser to a
27:30
bunch of machines just talking to each
27:31
other. I think that people have to be in
27:33
there to to to grade and to uh to uh
27:37
provide with the impetus to move these
27:40
campaigns from you know concept to
27:42
delivery to to renewal. So, as we wrap
27:45
up at least this conversation, the
27:47
festival's not yet over, although by the
27:49
time people are listening to this, we
27:50
will have gone home and and we will have
27:52
stopped sweating,
27:52
>> recovered in every physical and maybe
27:55
emotional way possible. But is there
27:57
anything that you've heard or seen or a
27:59
conversation you've had that has maybe
28:01
shifted your thinking or as we approach
28:03
the second half of this year, like two H
28:05
is underway,
28:06
>> Yeah.
28:07
>> how how you're going to rethink or
28:08
reframe or reorient something that
28:10
you're working on or communicating.
28:11
>> Yeah. I I like I said, I mean, I think
28:14
the retail media business is really
28:16
about data being leveraged to create a
28:20
more powerful and um impactful media
28:24
campaign. Right now, retail happens to
28:26
have a tremendous amount of data and
28:28
they've really uh been able to like it's
28:31
the most direct, right? It's you you I
28:33
I've got this information. I know this
28:35
person bought this product. There you
28:37
go. Go ahead and use it in whatever way
28:38
you want. I think there are dozens and
28:41
dozens of other categories that are
28:43
maybe a little bit less robust than um
28:47
retail is, but they have the capacity to
28:50
influence uh the way marketing works,
28:52
the way we think about products. And so
28:54
you see it a little bit like with the
28:55
Marriott media network. And I've just
28:58
spoke to a colleague who is really
29:00
focusing in on sports and how the fan
29:03
bases and um
29:05
>> it's really a commerce and consumer
29:08
ecosystem. Well said. That is not just
29:10
>> retail in the traditional understanding
29:12
because we consume.
29:14
>> Yeah. But fan fandom, passion, all the
29:18
things that we talked about 10, 15, 25
29:20
years ago that we were never really able
29:22
to bring to life. It was just sort of
29:24
retargeting and and maybe some, you
29:27
know, maybe some modeling of look
29:28
reimagined maybe. Yeah. Well, you know,
29:30
I don't I don't like to get too esoteric
29:32
about it, but I do think that like I
29:34
think that's the next level of being
29:37
able to extract information. And I think
29:40
the the machine learning capabilities
29:41
that are there make this more possible
29:44
uh to start to uh do some of this more
29:47
really exciting ways of creating both a
29:50
better user experience as well as a
29:52
better advertising experience. And so
29:54
I'm talking retail, retail, retail,
29:56
retail. I do think that like gonna spend
30:00
some time with our product team and with
30:01
our data team and start to think about
30:03
ways like we get beyond just retail
30:06
especially for the non-endemics like for
30:09
the non CPGs like what information can I
30:11
extract from all of this consumer data
30:14
about consumer package goods that might
30:17
help a different kind of brand
30:19
understand who their consumers are and
30:20
how to talk to them. Harley-Davidson
30:22
like couple of different Harley
30:24
fanatics.
30:25
>> You don't walk into a Harley-Davidson
30:26
Harley. You don't walk into a dealer and
30:28
just you're gonna go buy something for
30:29
the first time having thought about it,
30:31
researched it, been exposed to some
30:33
event that was inspiring. Right. So,
30:37
you're right. And so, how does all this
30:38
data help Harley understand who their
30:41
different personas are, how they're
30:43
going to talk to them? Is this person
30:44
just a fan? And that's great because I
30:46
want to sell them Harley-Davidson merch,
30:48
right? or is this person like a real
30:50
buyer,
30:50
>> right?
30:51
>> And that's not the same person. And I
30:53
think that like their consumer behavior,
30:56
their shopping patterns might tell us a
30:58
little bit something about that. And
31:00
that's a place where I'd want to spend
31:01
some more time.
31:02
>> Well, as long as everyone's wearing
31:04
their helmets when they buckle up and
31:05
get on their bikes,
31:06
>> drive safely and not in the rain,
31:07
>> we're all good to go. Yeah.
31:09
>> Well, Brian, thank you for your
31:11
pleasure, your wisdom, your expertise,
31:12
your insights. We made a genuine
31:14
connection. We have to come all the way
31:15
to can to have this connection. all
31:18
don't know this, but we know so many
31:19
people in common, it's kind of
31:20
ridiculous. So, this was fun.
31:22
>> This is this is what the network and the
31:23
connection is all about. So, thanks
31:24
again.
31:25
>> Awesome. Thank you. Thank you for
31:26
listening, buying Phillian's products.
31:29
Thanks.