Latest / The Good Builder Podcast / The Daily Dose #266 | Peter Wood Returns. Trust, Integrity, and Building Through Uncertainty
Transcript
- Aaron Ng (00:17) Good morning and welcome to the Good Builder podcast. There are some guests that you bring back to the podcast because people ask for them. And this was definitely one of them. The gentleman that I've got next to me, the podcast that we ran last year was actually our biggest podcast that we've had to date at the Good Builder. And that was in compared to over 260 podcasts. He's worked in the industry for over 50 years, started out as a chippy. He's done the whole thing. He's been through so many cycles of this industry and now heads up one of the biggest property groups in Australia. When we launched the podcast, the comments we got back about the integrity of this gentleman and the way he carries himself were just amazing. And we knew that we had a good builder sitting right beside us when that happened. The industry hasn't slowed down over these past few months and there's a few things happening as we all know with the IRM war and all that sort of thing. So we've brought the absolute legend Peter Wood back on from Avid Property Group. to catch up with him and see what's going on. The last time we had him on and we asked him what makes a good builder, it was the most comprehensive answer to actually Pete that we ever had. He said, systems, measurability, consistency, continuous improvement and a quiet focus. And you said it with so much conviction because you live it every day. And that's what I love about you, mate. So welcome back to the couch Pete, how are you? Thanks Aaron, yeah I'm good, I'm good. As you said it's been some uncertain times just lately and that means that we all got to dig back down into our trick bag and try and find some answers to things that maybe we've seen before not that long ago. Yeah, yeah, mate. So, we'll tell us what's been happening over these past few months and what are you sort of seeing come out of the result of, if you don't mind us tackling first, what's going on in the industry right now with the war and prices? Well, I can only speak from a personal perspective. However, I do bump into a lot of people and I have been receiving phone calls from some people asking me of my opinion about some of these circumstances that they're being confronted with. Prior to this trouble in the Middle East, was a very busy period. Demand was great. We were already dealing with labour availability issues and I was calling a while back and still will supply chain disruption was pretty evident to me back in late 2025 that certain products and services were being blocked, which was very, very much reflecting what happened in pandemic. wasn't talked of much, but it was there. And I think we're starting to see that really ratchet up now. There's obviously very, very hard to keep a track of. of how these increases are coming because every supplier, every consultant, everyone involved in the industry is looking to reclaim some of their costs with respect to fuel and material costs. How you do that, how you cover that is very difficult because In some cases, surcharges are being levied and other situations there's a levy itself and in others it's just a straight increase to price. So builders are now having to deal with that. There's a purchase order already out there. Yet now there's an extra to site required to cover for the surcharge or the levy or whatever it might be. That's creating another level and layer of work back of house for estimators and people in that space. Pretty difficult. And how many homes have you got on the How many projects you got on the ground? As of today, got 180 on the And so, you know, if you look at A typical program on one of our sites includes about 192 tasks. There's probably about 105 there that would have purchase orders attached to them. So potentially we're going to have to double back on every one of those, buy 190 and adjust surcharges and cover these other costs. So yeah, the real cost of the material increase is one thing, but there's an administrative burden that you've got to bear now as well. Mate, you know what? We've talked to so many people in the industry and this is why I think you are one of, well, you are one of the best in the industry, mate. I don't think, I know you are. You talk about it in that a lot of builders, something I never picked up. We were just about to release a piece about material price escalation. You got to think about the operational side of things as well. I didn't think about that at all. So what do you think that adds to Avid in terms of? percentage cost of doing things. Well, it's the admin cost is really, really hard to determine because we haven't actually started yet. We were in the process of communicating with our suppliers and those that have levied us with a paragraph of our own that this isn't going to be easy. And if you don't make it easy for us to pay you. your payment, your extra payment may be delayed because I mean, this has come from left field. We're not set up to handle this. No, I don't think anyone is, but we will find our way. And so will every other builder that will find our way through this. Hopefully it doesn't go on for too long. Yeah. What is the cost of these increases though? Again, it's such a moving feast. It's hard to know. But I mean, if you asked me to just pull a number out of the air, I would suggest that what we've seen today is somewhere between two and a half to four and a half percent on top of the cost of build. I could be wrong, but that's what I'm feeling and seeing. But that's moving. Yeah. So, you know, if you look at that in conjunction with. some of the other costs that we've incurred, you know, since 2020, there's been significant increase in cost of build right across the board for everybody. Absolutely. And bringing big changes and certainly challenging the whole affordability piece. Oh, absolutely. I was speaking with a builder yesterday, Pete, who works in Harvey Bay, Bundaberg. Quite a big builder from a franchise group. 100 builds on the ground. each one's going up about 20, 30 grand and they've got fixed price contracts. That's a problem. That's a problem. That's a massive problem. It's a real problem. Yeah. So look, I mean, everyone's circumstances will be a little bit different. have a lot of supply agreements in our business and where I... try to negotiate out a little bit and we have great relationships with our suppliers. So in some cases they might be taking it a little more easy on me than someone else. I'm not sure about that, but that's an unqualified assessment of where things are at the moment. For our business, I think that's where it's at at the moment. ⁓ But there's a lot more of these surcharges to be applied yet and a lot more to come. era to be alive in building these last five years, six years, you know, and you've navigated even before all that. Has this been some of the hardest periods that you've ever seen, Pete? Like, because you've had a fair bit of experience there, mate, has it been some of the most difficult and challenging? Yeah, it has been, without doubt. I mean, there were times in 2020 through to about 2023 where it would actually keep me awake at night. And then of a morning I would have all these grand ideas about what I might do. But then when I looked at it again, I thought, no, that's just not gonna work. And I realised that I actually had no tricks left in the trick bag. I just flat out empty of ideas. But look. as you get back together as a group and the Villa World Homes team by Avid Property Group are a really great team and I'm not expected to have every answer but the answer lies within the group and when we find it we work towards something. It may not be the best outcome but it's an outcome. We'll work towards that and we'll stop and survey the landscape and we'll go again. Yeah it's all you can do because as you said you don't know what the landscape's going to bring and again we'll move on to another topic but I was having a look at predictions from around the globe of how long this war is going to last and they're going, oh will it be done by mid-2026? I think the probability of that the world leaders in that was saying about 25 percent. finishing quarter three of 2026 and I was saying about 30 % and then going into 2027 is the rest. ⁓ We're like what is gonna happen next Pete? So I wanna get off that topic if you don't mind. I didn't bring my polished crystal ball today. it would be hard to comment on that but again we know what's happening right now and I'm sure every business has been challenged by it. Yeah, and you know what, and all that advice that you just gave, you know, the way you're sort of looking at it and navigating it, our builder community appreciates Pete. So mate, think that's all you can do, you know, that's all you can do for now because as you said, crystal ball, we don't know. Onto positive stuff. Yeah. Mate, Arvind. you've completed the integration with AV Jennings coming in and you know that's the leadership in the leadership team and bringing those two cultures and businesses together. What were your biggest lessons made of doing that? Well it's a very interesting question because I mean what we might say the integration is done it's actually it's going to be ongoing for quite some time I mean The AV Jennings business was a very, very proud business. I remember that well because a number of years ago in the early 90s, I worked for AV Jennings for seven and a half years. And it was a very proud business. As of last year, it had celebrated 92 years of being in existence. And so, I mean, you it came with its own, with its own beating heart, so to speak. But I don't want to have a shot at anything or at where that brand, how it may have performed over that full 92 years, but it was ready for a refresh. There was things that were a little tired. I don't want to be disrespectful, but I'm just saying there were a few things that were a little tired and may not have been commensurate with the business in 2026. Having said that though, the people that came across who transitioned over and those who've come on a full-time basis have been very big in helping us understand that business. I mean we can be critical of it because it's not the way we do things but it was the way they did things and it probably made perfect sense. But at the moment I need to bring that intellectual property, I need to bring that culture, I need to bring those ideas into the Villa World Homes by Avid business. And we've been doing that and we've been doing it quite successfully, I think. There are no AV Jennings bills on the ground in Queensland. There are some in New South Wales at the moment. So mostly we've been picking up. the warranty items that people don't often think about that you inherit when you take over a business. that's been interesting because we don't understand the job. We don't understand how it went together. We need to try and apply Kaisendo to pull it apart, to put it back together to fix it. So still a bit of work to do there, but we're We're that task. No, that must be a fascinating business. having to do that, You've probably done this a few times. No, I haven't actually. No, I haven't. This is the first time that, well, I was part of an integration back in 2019 when Avid made an offer for Villa World Proprietary Limited. And so I was in the boots on the foot this time, might say. I was part of a group of people on a team within a team that were being integrated into a business and saw how that happened and never did it pretty well from where I was standing. Yeah. But now, now I'm part of the integration, I'm bringing people in and to integrate them into our business. So it's been quite unique. I don't know whether I'll get to do it again in my career, but it has been interesting and has been challenging. Yeah, yeah. Wow. It would be, I think you mentioned before on the phone, the last one we did, are everything to you. People to you are the lifeblood of the business. Yeah. So I know how much importance that you would. place on actually bringing them into a functioning culture and the way you do things. yeah. And allowing room for respect there too. You know, they needed to be respected for what they did and where they've been. And it's a hard thing when you're coming into another business. You don't know the people, you don't know the systems, you're not quite sure what to expect. So yeah, you've got to be very careful about that and manage that human element. You've got to manage it well. You know what Pete, the more I talk to you mate, not only are you technically so sound and you understand the whole building aspect of things and the operations, I love the people side of you too mate. I've just got to say that. I think about integrating people into a business and it's about making them fit the mold to do the job by the way you want to do it. I love how you said you've got to respect where they've came from. There is that 92 year history that's smacking straight in the face when you that. like, wait a minute, there is a 92 year history. Yeah, I love the way you think about it. And you've got to show that respect because there's probably some things to learn along the way as well. I'm sure and we have learned some things from the people who've been coming over about how they did things and how they may have approached certain tasks. There's never a day go by, Aaron, where you're not learning something. So someone has a pearl for you nearly every day, in my humble opinion. And the people thing, I mean, I've been somewhat successful in my career. through a lot of hard work and dedication but largely because I just surrounded myself with people that were better than me and I relied on them and just simply led them around. I'm more about leadership than I am management. don't like being managed myself but I do like people leading me and encouraging me and coaching me so that's how I try to look at these situations. Yeah and that's exactly how you know, I won't give you too many compliments because it's gonna sound like I'm sucking up to your podcast. Oh mate, but you won't. But when we dropped that last pod, that was exactly the feedback we got back. was like, he's a great leader. He shows the way you follow his actions and that's how you do it. There was nothing around, you know, that micro management. So love it, mate. Well, and the other thing that you said on the last podcast, you were pretty candid about Lance's life and where things are going. Mate, we've just dropped a bit of research today. It doesn't seem like it's really moved too much. What are you sort of seeing out there in that land space? Is it holding steady? Do think there's a concerted effort to open up more land or do think we can do more? I think it's somewhere between we can do more and steady. I don't know that it's improved. No. I don't want to be a pessimist and I don't want to be negative about it, but... my experience and what I'm seeing at the moment, it's hard to get overly enthused about it. Yeah, absolutely. There seems to be roadblocks still. Yeah, might have mentioned in the last podcast, you know, in the middle of a housing crisis, I would suggest it's more of a land crisis. Yeah. Than a housing crisis, but put them both together. You know, it's hard work. And, you know, I'm still seeing delays on our projects. running a fleet of generators on one particular project because we don't have power. I don't want to be in the equipment high again, but I'm having to do that. And one of the knock-on effects from that was it wasn't only a little while back that we were so relied upon generators. that we needed to drive our sites with and we couldn't actually holler them. Coates and others were fresh out of generators. So that problem is not just mine, that problem is others. Others are having to do and resort to the same type You've never heard that. No, you don't see. These are the little things in the background that, this is another knock on effect, from the utility providers and not being in sync or having an alignment with local government and the developer themselves. There's another project we have at the moment and in some cases we're getting ready to hand product out. We don't have power, we don't have water. So there comes a time where I'm gonna have to close those houses up and wait for all the infrastructure and services to catch up with us. So. You know, so that's my experience. I'm sure that's experience of other people as well. So you mean it's harder. It's hard to give it a pass mark. Yeah. Again, mate, you know, no one has actually ever said we're going to land crisis, let alone a housing crisis. I think you're completely correct. It is the number one thing that is holding us back. And I think it was you, on this last podcast. And we're talking about the same sort of thing. And you're like, give me a thousand homes I'll build. Yeah. Like. You have no qualm about actually getting the job done. It'll be tough, but we'll get there. But release the land. It's the uncertainty of when you can start. mean, and when you do get access to it, what services will you have? That's unbelievable using generators. well, that's not uncommon. know, I think increasingly it's not been uncommon for us as a business because we've always looked to get going early. We recognize we're going to go in and certain services won't be there. That's a deliberate strategy on the part of Avid. Villa World Homes. But others are experiencing that situation and they're not really aware of it. They're hearing that it'll be ready or power will be available on this state and it doesn't happen and then it drags out and sometimes you're that far committed, you've just got to go. So you've got to provide tankers for potable water. We've got ice makers on some of our sites at the moment to cool down water for people so that they can actually get a drink. You know, it's, so if I think about it, yeah, as I said, it's either pretty much the same or it's dropped off a little again. So you can only hope that it does rebound soon and we get good outcomes from all levels of government, from all regulators, from everyone, the utility providers, from everyone, the developers themselves and builders. You know, you don't want to be... seeing builders sort of abuse the bright and privilege of being out on good sites and doing the wrong thing. But yeah, really hard to be positive about it at this point in time. And I want to be positive about it. Yeah, yeah, we do too. And we just, as I said, we just did a bunch of research on it was the same sort of thing that you said, very stable, could be better. We're not telling a great story at all, mate. Well, if we've been thinking about building 1.2 million houses between now and 2029, I mean, it has to be better. Yeah. Otherwise, it just can't happen. Yeah. We shouldn't even talk about the housing accord, you know, if they're not going to commit to opening up land, readily available shovel ready land. You're not going to do it. Let's not talk about it. Well, that's right. I mean, it just gives false hope. And I think politicians are a narrative or a number to congregate around. But I looked I saw some information from HIA yesterday that indicated we're already 65K behind and with years to go in this cycle. So yeah, it's looking increasingly difficult to see that we'll attain that number. Yeah, well, and just going back to the generators and everything like that, particularly now. If you, if you have to operate in that manner, given the current situation, just continually adds cost to you, doesn't it? does. It does. does. And, and it's hard to quantify that cost. mean, what's the cost of the, uh, site manager running down to the service station twice a day with 20, 15, 20 litre jerry cans on the back of his, you, uh, it's hard to quantify that, but it has to happen. Um, and yeah, so it does add cost, but to stand still. Also adds costs. you got to move. got to move. Wow. Yeah. Because you would be thinking about the operational costs, the holding of land, what's sitting on it, all of that sort of stuff. Yeah. It's not just Australia cost of an item. It's all of those things that happen in the big house. it's. Mate, it's fascinating. You know, a lot of builders, you're a different type of builder. You know, are so over a lot of the stuff that even big and small builders, I think, could learn a lot of lessons from this in terms of looking at their overheads and things like that and the way they look at building it, you know. Yeah, well, it's a death by a thousand cut, so you really need to be over it. Yeah, wow. Well, on some other great stuff, you recently went to Vantage, the lifestyle. community up in Harvey Bay. A new project I think it is. And you had a great young workforce there. You're very passionate about bringing the youngsters into the industry. Tell us a little bit about that Pete and what you're doing up there and what you sort of saw. well Villa World Homes prior to being taken over by AVID had a sizeable development up there for a number of years, Augustus, I think they must have built about or delivered about 450 houses in that project. But we exited there prior to the takeover and haven't been back in town in Harvey Bay that is since then. Harvey Bay is a very parochial town and when you're going back to reset a business or to establish a business again, because really we were establishing it again, it was an eye opener. for a regional town, it is just booming. And, you know, we had some old acquaintances and some friendships and relationships that we could round back on because when we left Harvey Bay, we left well. And so we were able to plug into some of those people, but there was a lot of people who had retired or moved on or just decided that the building game wasn't for them anymore or they were already committed. And, you know, to a certain extent, who was available to us? Well, there was a younger contingent, a younger cohort that were available to us. through relationships that we'd previously had and introductions, we set up around a fairly young site management team. Well, most of my team... matter where they reside a fairly young well in comparison to me they are anyway but yeah and with them came a trade base that was also younger than what you would typically see i don't know what it is in harvey bay white that dynamic is is the way it is but as i said to you recently i was back up there again in ⁓ in november we were holding a christmas function for some of these subbies and You know, I was spending a day or two up there prior to this function and was walking around the site, looking at it like, you know, I've walked around a million homes, I've walked around a million sites, but I was just impressed by the presentation of the site, by the quality of the work, by the feedback we were getting, not just from independent third party, QA companies, but by the potential clients themselves that were raving about it. And you don't always hear that, you know, there's generally around building, there's a lot of noise, but not all of it's good. Not all of it's encouraging. Some of it is time to take stock and see what's happening. But in this case, was just, it was being amplified and it was just wonderful to hear it. But when I met with this group, we went and had a day at the local bowls club and had a beer or two and had something to eat. When I mixed with these young fellows, and again, mostly, not all of them, but mostly, their attitude was just fantastic. They were happy to be working. They were talking about how they might progress their careers. Or actually, some of them were asking, hey, how do I do this? What do you think I should do. And it was just, you know, it was just wonderful to see a group of people that were so driven. Yeah. And who had locked into this project. It's our first project up there, as I said, for a number of years. It was our first foray into the lifestyle community business. Very cool. Which is now has another business arm has been created with an advocate called Vantage, as you quite rightly said. And, you know, we've just been making every post a winner. The product is good, the quality is good, the interest, the sales are good. Everything about the project is a winner at the moment and we're really happy about that. That's fantastic. So we've gone and done the same thing again now. We've just commenced another project, lifestyle community project at Lilywood, just in west of Caboolture. And we've just commenced another one in... Chambers Reserve in the Chambers Flat, then that Logan area. yeah, so we've ironed out a lot of the bugs in Harvey Bay and now we're putting them, putting those jobs back into the field with all that experience and all those corrections that you can make. It's pretty much the same product, just with different specification levels. So it's been really good for us. It's big part of the avid business, the advantage. you know, now we're learning as we go because not only is the clientele a little different to your average clientele, they also have very high expectations, but they're very proud of their communities. So they're all pulling in together. So yeah, we're learning again how to deal with clients and how to maintain that level of service. It's commensurate with what they believe they're entitled to. It's a different mindset to another. group of people but We've just got to be very mindful of it and make sure we don't slip up, having done all those other things, right? Yeah. To slip up with the service piece and recognizing the customer. Yeah. Yeah. Well, those communities that need for those sorts of communities that are exploding too, are they? Well, the demand is just incredible. mean, you guys are the right guys to do it too. Well, we do because we bring the land with us. just looking at Harvey Bay, it would seem that on every corner there is a lifestyle. community being built and that's the same in the regions as you head north towards Bundaberg you come back this way I mean you know Caboolture, Logan you know they're everywhere and I think that it's a great concept in that You know, people can downsize in some cases, but potentially they're leaving, they're leaving a four bedroom house to come into a two bedroom house, which is a new build, which is providing, you know, opportunity and stock potentially for people to purchase or to rental. So, I mean, I just find it hard to see any problems with it at this point in time. So, and maybe I'm talking from the heart, but I've got a few grandmas and aunties and things that live in those and just the sense of community and lifestyle and everything that they provide is amazing. It is amazing. Yes. And I'm sure you guys will build an amazing product. know, have a little world. Absolutely. You know, I think it's right up your alley. We're doing our best. We're doing our best. But the youngsters, that's interesting. Yeah. Do you think it did you is it the culture of of working with you guys? What is it? Oh, you think do you think they get a better do you mind if I ask you this? Do you think they get a better go at it? The youngsters because they're working with a more organized builder. I know that's quite broad, but I've I've run around the traps. don't need to answer this. This is probably my opinion. I run around the traps, right? And I go and I see and I'll go and see a builder that builds 12 homes here. And I'll see their apprentice on site. And I went to one and I was pretty shocked about how he talked to the apprentice. You know, if I was at a premise, I wouldn't have been there. I could tell he just didn't have the business sense. Unfortunately, the builder just didn't have the emotional intelligence didn't have that business acumen that you do. And you understand people, probably a great craftsman. And I could just tell this young kid wasn't having a good time. And I'm not trying to force anyone out of moving apprenticeships into bigger builders or whatever, but I'm just trying to understand why, you know. Look, I don't know. Maybe there's some truth to that. think we'd probably make it easier for younger people who come with an open mind. Like, you're not talking to a wise and... a tradie, you know, he's 20, 30 years and it's, well, I've always done it that way and that's why I'm going to do it. And they're probably able to be molded a little bit more. And we bring a system. I mean, we have a methodology. you know, you do it this way because it works. And if you do it this way and we do what we say, you will make money because there's process. and don't have to second guess anything because what you did over there is what you'll do over there. And so we don't trick them up. And I think that they can fall into their own rhythm then. And they can, you I mean, you're never happier than when you're making money, right? Yeah. So, but I just also think maybe there's something to be said for the regions and maybe the the people that are available to you in terms of the workforce just have a different mindset. They seem to be pretty chilled out up there, I don't mind telling you, know, they're pretty cool. ⁓ they are, mate. And I'm originally from Sydney and I did a stint in Bundaberg for three years over the Bundaberg floods, working for Mervac and rebuilding a shopping centre, commercial centre. And mate, I'll tell you what, we bought a house there and I think I'll return when I retire. I'll probably live in one of your over 50s community, Pete. That's where you'll see me, mate, because... I love them and know what? There is a different work ethic I believe up there. Yeah, they're used to getting on the farm. They're used to, you know, going out fishing. There's a bit more of that. Yeah. Old school. is. I got to be careful. I don't, don't upset someone, but I just think it's a slightly different attitude. I'm a huge believer in attitude. mean, in terms of, you know, engaging with people, I hire for attitude and train for skill. Yeah, absolutely. Attitude is the number one thing. that you need in order to create a successful subcontracted business or be a successful builder. I just think you need people with great attitude around you. you don't have drags back, like that young fellow you just mentioned, what was his attitude like? He was probably not really happy and was he ever going to be looking to do a little more for that fellow or was he ever going to be looking to be a star? I'd suggest not. I'd suggest that he was probably thinking about maybe there's another calling in life for I think so. I think so Pete, mate. well, you are fascinating and I think again it does also come back to that leadership piece. Good leaders always keep people around too. So mate, very, very cool. This is a bit of advice for the builders and I want to ask you question about this and I know you do this on another level. You talk, we talked last time about the builder developer relationship and how you do all of that sort of thing. We know a couple of builders in our community, smaller ones that started into their own little mini developments and things like that, bespoke ones. What would you say they should look out for, but they might not know? Well, I would suggest you need to find out what you don't know because there are plenty of traps out there. I see it at a large scale within our own business and, know, hardened seasoned professional development managers struggling to get all of the requirements out of local government. sometimes it's a thing that's left unmentioned or left unsaid that can actually create a really, really big problem for you. So I would suggest that you should assume nothing and you should make sure that you double back on everything. that you may not know. mean, find out, ask the question, get an answer, and then prosecute that, pull that apart and find out, know, okay, well, you're talking to me about the the sewer rise or all, you know, or who's gonna do that? Is it gonna be urban utilities? Is it gonna be the local government? Is, know, who's gonna do that? And in some cases that hasn't even been resolved within the DA itself. So I think you need to step warily, ask plenty of questions. And I think one should align oneself. If you're a builder coming into the development side, from my own observations, not being a part of this daily, but watching it from the sidelines, I think you should align yourself with a very good civil engineer who will take on the superintendent type role for you and look out for your best interests. Season people who know where those pitfalls are. Don't assume you're gonna be able to highlight them. expose them and then deal with them. think you need to know it's a different game. It's a and they play for keeps. Yeah. Yeah. You're in trouble if you're in trouble. Wow. You're in trouble. Geez mate. That is yeah we we know a few there's a few builders I think small ones and they're just starting to try and get into this development space so I had I had to ask a few of them had actually asked me to ask you when you came back on and I won't lie because they said oh Peter, Peter Wood from Abbott, there's a gentleman, sorry, I'm gonna call him out. Stephen VanderWalk from Walk Construction, lovely builder, great custom builder. He wants to be the grayer of Australia, but I shouldn't say this, but he builds a really good quality product. That's great. Yeah, and he's doing his own development, a few townhouses, and he's just having a look at this block of land, from our last part, he's like, when are you Peter Wood back on? could you ask him about this and I'm like yeah he's got this little block up in the end and I'm like I don't know much about it. might have to refer him to someone who does really know but they are my observances. I love it. I just think that yeah that experienced civil engineer who can help you slice and dice the lots and you know we'll do as a relationship with the local. council offices, you know what mean? Sometimes that's what it takes, you if you don't have that relationship, it just makes it much more difficult. But that's what I would recommend as a thing that you could do. The industry is a really relationship heavy game, isn't it? I believe it's everything. I reckon that's why you're so successful. People respect you, Well, I've always been a believer that you have to build relationship and if you do and applying some of those, you you were mentioning earlier that I'm certainly from a different genre than you, you know, there's old older principles of, you know, shaking hands with someone and really, really meaning it and or looking to encourage and looking for good outcomes. I think you have to build relationship and now our whole procurement at Villa World Homes. I mean, we have an element and a degree of science about what we do and how we maintain that and how we manage that. But I would probably suggest to you, I'd spend 20 or 30 % of any given week building and managing relationships. Because I to be first in the queue. want to be the person that they want to, that's the A1 gold and boss builder right there. Let's deal with them because doing business with them is easy. And I want to have those relationships with people where someone gives you a heads up about something that's coming or you may need to do this or, you know, in times such as this, can ring people and I can find out what's happening. As I said on the way up here, I had three phone calls to find out where PVC pipe might be and when we might get it. So relationship management for me is, backstops our whole procurement policy or guidelines. Because, and I also don't want to do business with people who don't hold similar values because we're going to clash. We're going to have trouble. And I don't want that. There'll be others out there who can give me the same service or product that will meet the value proposition that we have at Villa World Homes by having property. Yeah. Mate, I sit here just smiling and nodding and it's not because I can't participate in the conversation, Peter. Mate, you are the blueprint to the good builder. You are a blueprint, mate. Like just the way you talk, the things you're saying, everything is a blueprint. I love it. I absolutely love what you're about, No, but I'm, I'm not just saying it. Like I love everything you think about. love how you say free with your information, giving your experience. talking about the realities of building. So passionate about it, mate. You are the blueprint to a good builder. If we could just bottle you and put it out there, I wouldn't have to be sitting here doing interviews, but I want to get you back on and keep getting you back on. about making it easy to work with people. And I love that, the whole relationship thing. Now from the other side of not working internally but from a client facing sort of relationship. I'm not trying to plug our report we just dropped, but we just dropped a report today and we had a look at 97. We, we analyze 97,000 customer reviews and where the build experience fell down for a client. And the number one thing was just communication. You mentioned that a lot in the last part, you mentioned communication the whole way through and all that sort of thing. Now, where do you think a lot of builders are falling short in communication as the first question? And then I wanted to ask you. How do you do that at scale? Like particularly in the situation we're in at the moment, you've got 180 builds on the ground. Things. To your first question. Sorry, remind me again. Communication. Communication. Sorry, I beg your pardon. I mean, yeah, communication is everything and everyone will say that, but you've got to really check yourself and make sure that you're actually doing it. Communication doesn't need to be verbal. Communication can be a photo. Communication can be giving client an access to a portal that we have that feeds off our programs. And so they can go on and have a look and go, well, okay, I'm at this stage. Sometimes that IT can get you in more trouble than it's worth, generally it will work. I mean, the worst thing you can do to a client or is just not tell them where things are at. They want to be involved a lot of people. And again, I mean, just using the LLC example. And most of these people have built a few houses in their time and they actually know a little bit about the process. So they don't want to be kept in the dark. They want to know, okay, I'm at this stage. And so that would reasonably mean that I'll be at this stage. But everyone wants to know when you're going to get in. And so, look, as I said, communication takes various forms. We have in our business in the Villa World Homes by Avid Property Group business, we're supported by an independent customer excellence team and that's their job. Their job is to, the customer ambassador is to take on board these group of customers and clients and keep them informed. Wow. No matter what, keep them informed. So you've an entire team. Well, not that big a team. I wonder how they do it. But there are some people in there who are dedicated to the built form. There are others there that are dedicated to the land development side, but obviously there's a lot more moving parts in the built form. But I'm happy to tell you that we measure the customer satisfaction through that journey and particularly from handover about a month in and we use the Net Promoter Score. model and we use a CSAT model to measure customer satisfaction. we regularly, wherever the built form, wherever Villa World homes by avid features as opposed to a straight out land development, experience rates higher. So it would indicate that we're doing something right. And it's not just a communication piece. I think it talks to the quality of the home. I think it talks to the appointment and the specification in the home. Because we don't allow variation and actual effects. we determine it all. So you've got to hope you're on trend. You've to hope that the advice you've got is allowing you to deliver stuff that's contemporary, that's real and will last the test of time. Second part of the question. In terms of communication at scale, how do you scale? How do do that? I touched on it in the first piece of communication. make everyone in our system has a login to ⁓ a three Salesforce, which I'm sure you've heard of before. It's a very popular CRI. And they can actually go in in real time, see, when I say real time, know, perhaps updated. every couple of days, but you can see where your home's at. Within region, we don't put every task in there, but we have a series of milestones. So it's either here or it's here or it's here. And I think that's how you do it at scale because otherwise you're going to need a call center somewhere in India in order to be able to ring everybody and keep them up to date with verbal communication. So it's not possible. So through IT, believe that, as I said, it's not that it's infallible. But it works in a lot of situations where it doesn't work. gives you an opportunity to keep fine tuning this because we're not experts at it. Yeah. But we want to become an expert at it so we can maintain that consistent level of information and feedback. And what you don't measure, you can't control really. Well, I don't think that's what you do. In that last podcast. I ripped that off you. I was quoting you from that last point. That's what you said. And it stuck in my head forever. If you can't measure it, you don't know whether you're doing it right or you're doing it wrong. don't know whether you've plateaued and you're getting ready to the continuous improvement journey again. You don't know where you're at. You've got to be able to measure it. We measure ETSs, we measure production efficiency, measure quality assurances. You know, we measure safety outcomes. And through all of that, you know, gives you a good guide on where you're at and how you're traveling. Sometimes we can get a bit slack. mean, we can fall off our game a bit and the measurement piece helps you to hang on. You know, we're below the line here. What are we doing? What are we going to do? What are we lost? Or what are we not doing to get back to where we want to be? So yeah, no measurement is everything. You're not measuring it. You're not in the game. Fascinating. I did not know that you did that. You measure everything. Efficiency to customer satisfaction. You talked about how you're measuring the performance of your suppliers over this period and all sorts of things. This is fascinating, We regularly go to our trade base and estimating teams and those who are involved in the built form. and our customer ambassadors are getting feedback from clients and we do supply reviews. And if I know someone's coming to see me, we'll do one in advance of that. So when they come, we've got something to talk about other than the latest price rise or some new innovative product. But let's talk about performance because it's expected. If you're gonna deal with this, you should expect from us that we're gonna do what we say. We should expect from you, you're gonna do what you say. So we do measure the suppliers as well and give them that feedback. We have 18 points that we measure them against. And it doesn't mean that we, if the score is not great, we don't say, well, that's it, it's all hopeless. We've got to pack up and go somewhere else. We give them the opportunity to understand where they're falling down. And in some cases it's item four, it's item seven, or it's item nine. They're everything else you're doing great. But those couple there, if you work on that, you don't have to reinvent the relationship. You've just got to do these things a little better and we'll all be happy. And so if you can make it simple for them as well, well then, They want to hear this feedback. Good suppliers want to hear. They want to hear how they're going. And if they're going great, they'd like to be recognised. And if they're not going so great, they want an opportunity to fix it. yeah, that's how we, that's part of our measurement as well. You actually answered my next question without even talking. I was going to talk about trades and suppliers and how you communicate with them and continuous improvement and all of that. And again, we've never had a builder that had to talk about this, how they. enhance and better their subbies and their contractors and everything like that. You're providing this feedback and showing them how to improve their businesses. So they scale with you. Yeah. Like that's pretty cool. That's a real relationship. Yeah. And you talked about it before, power of relationships and barriers. Amazing, mate. You know, do you see many, like, do you see many builders do that sort of thing? it, or is it something that you've just done, ⁓ look I've never heard of Aaron with all due respect I don't actually make it my business to look at what other builders do too much. Okay. I do like to look because I've always you know I'm always seeing and learning things from other builders as well but you know we've got an agenda and I want to yeah I want to work to that agenda but you don't see it often and and ⁓ you know I over my time I've seen a lot of people who come into the business, who come from a tertiary background, they should be all over this more than what they are. But they're not. I don't know what they're teaching, you get graduates from construction management degrees and they just don't seem to have all these questions or all these processes. or a toolbox to come and deal with these things and they need to learn it on the run. just think some of the how we... know, like relationship management is not taught in either a diploma course at TAFE or a university degree. But it's one of the fundamentals of business, right? I mean, anyone who says it isn't is probably someone who has the personality of a rock, you know, and they're not going to be able to do that. it's everything. is. It's everything. And being intuitive and learning to be innovative, even if it's not a new product, but with ideas and your own system. Yeah. I just see a lack of that at times. People think that we just got to get from A to Z and we got to get there as quickly as we can. There's a lot more to it than that. It doesn't mean by applying all those things that you've got to go slower, but you're more considered as you go through the stage gates. Yeah, yeah. I'm with you, Pete. You you said something in the other podcast, which I think also reflects to this. said that, you know, your reputation runs faster than you see. Absolutely. You know, and everything that you kind of talked about then. does feed into your reputation and the trust in you and wanting to do relate, you know, relationships and business with you. There's kind of the same different side of the same coin. You have those relationships, but you also perform so people can trust you in times like this when the pressure's on, mate, how do you, I don't think I shouldn't even ask you this question to be honest, because I can absolutely, and now we've spent some time, I can tell the man you are. And I know all the people that listen to us know who you are. They know you just get the job done, but In times like this, how do you, what could someone do to try and hold on to that integrity? Like what do you think that people should do? Well, I don't see there's a need to change. I mean, if that relationship management and building hasn't, has worked. and your integrity is in place, it doesn't need to change. I mean, it's the same game plan really. You've just got to find other ways of moving through the blockades. mean, truly, if I couldn't bring that element of relationship management to our procurement and I was going to have to challenge or compromise my integrity to get something done, Well, the next day is the first day of my retirement because I just couldn't live with myself. I couldn't do it. Yeah. Because it doesn't work anyway. It might work for a little while, but ultimately it doesn't work. It'll fall to pieces. Yeah. And so will you if you want to conduct yourself. Yeah. Well, it depends on the person you are, think, Yeah, well, you know, maybe, yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe. Well, for me, that's that's true for me. I know. That's true for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Other people might have a different gauge by which they measure. This is it's so interesting meeting someone like you, Pete. And honestly, and I'm not just saying because you're on the podcast. I don't say this on podcasts. When I came off the other one that we did, like I came off and I remember talking to my wife and I was just fascinated with the guy. So the way he delivered it, he's done it. No doubt. what I've seen you do in the, you know, I've watched you on social and LinkedIn, the proof's in the pudding, your journey's there. You're so logical. And I was just like, there's not that many, unfortunately, there's not that many people out there like you. I know that sounds really bad for the people that are listening to us, but I really believe like that whole integrity piece and the way you hold yourself as somewhat, I think it's a critical piece to being a good builder. Just your, your mindset, the way you, like I said, you hold yourself. don't know what the word is. I'm losing my words, but. I think that's a critical piece to being a good builder. And it's a personal thing. How is that taught? Like, how do you teach that thing in like, I see the youth nowadays and maybe because I'm getting older, maybe I'm getting a bit old, fuddy-duddy, but I look at them and I'm like, man, where's the integrity nowadays? Like we used to go, I'm like you, I'm in my 40s now. And we used to do things by handshakes and mates were mates and you'd stand beside them and you'd do what you can and you'd word your word. And I just kind of believe like that's all gone. And then I sit with a man like you. This is where my whole rant has been going these last two minutes. But I had the first part with you, I sat with you and I'm like, this is what men should be like. I'm not just talking men, I'm talking people, but this is what we should be like. How do we get back to that? look, I really don't know. As I said, a lot of this started for me when I was a young man. I mean, maybe it was my personal circumstances in those formative years, but a terrific father who overcame a lot of adversity and a lot of things. And I took strength from that because I say, well, if he can do it, I can do it. I work with some wonderful people who were just honest, straight up people who wanted nothing but for me to learn the trade and to be a great craftsman. And then with that learning, when I went into the more management side of things, starting with AV Jennings back in 1980 something as a trainee site supervisor, I went in there and not knowing much, but knew that, well, I know how to conduct myself. I know I'll be rewarded for behaving this way rather than this way. So let's... let's bring that to the forefront and let's use those as a couple of the key pillars of what I'm about to learn in this journey I'm going on. And I might be giving the game away, but doors opened to me over my career that sometimes I wanted... Why has this opportunity come my way? That guy over there is infinitely better than me and all this stuff. would know he's or he's technically more sound or whatever. But I just, I think that, you know, to say integrity, you gotta live integrity. But if you do, the proof's in the pudding. Things open up to you, doors open up. You might slow your roll a little because it's not all about our ultimate and, you know, success at any cost. It's about success, but it's being successful over the journey. I really don't know. I said I was blessed to grow up in one of six kids in a very strong, loving household. And I just think that that was the benchmark for me. And everything out of there, I've measured against my mother and my father. I love it. I love it, Peter. I wanted to know, mate, because I'm fascinated with it, as I said. Like, I really think I love your character. I think character, it... strength of character in anyone, in a person, in a human is the most important thing and you've got a really strong character with that integrity and when you carry yourself that way, I would just love the, and I think you said, you know, you're a product of your environment basically. And this is why I wanted to start the good builder. And maybe this is what I'm alluding to. This is why I wanted you back on the podcast. I want all the young guys out there. want the whole community to hear you and how you hold yourself. These are the lessons that we need to learn as well. Personal lessons about how to hold ourselves, not just build buildings, but how to hold ourselves day to day. Well, not everyone will agree with that statement because there are times when, you know, I fall down. are times when I don't meet the standard that I've set. It happens frequently, you But I think it's important to realize when, you know, you've not attained the standard you set for yourself and stop and take stock and say, I've got to get back there. I just have to get back there because it's too hard to be here. It's too hard to be, you know, someone that's not sincere or too hard to be someone who won't tell the truth. I've been accused in the past of being direct and I don't see it but then sometimes I do but that's part of that integrity piece because you know like the conversation And this is for the young people out there or anyone out there for that matter. The conversation you don't want to have now, the one that's bothering you greatly is the one you must have now. You must have it. You must do it now. You must deal with it. Otherwise, it'll it'll be baggage on top of baggage on top of baggage. And that's one of the key principles that I live by. I just can't let the grass grow under your feet with a problem. or something that has to be said. And if it's done with truth and it's with sincerity and care, be prepared to have the conversation because it's the right thing to do. Yeah, I want our community listener. We go on this pathway to discovering what is a good builder. there are several, as I... I think, as I said, you gave the most comprehensive answer and it encompasses the personal character as well. And that's what I loved on top of all the other stuff. think that is most important. Mate, I could talk to you all day, but I have one more question left and it's kind of a bit of a recap of the what makes a good builder. know, I truly believe, Peter, and I'm looking in your eyes, mate, I'm not lying. You have given the best answer on the good builder and you are the blueprint to being a good builder. Has anything moved up the list in what makes a good builder now? What would you focus on right now in this current environment? Okay. Look, if you don't mind, this is something that I challenge myself with daily. not, well, certainly daily. And to that end, I send myself a reminder every Friday morning to revisit this because it's It's what helps to set my moral compass pointing in the right direction. hopefully will be an example to the people around me. the question that I pose to myself at 8 a.m. every Friday morning is, are we building trust with each other? Our colleagues, our business partners? That's a question that I ask because if I can answer that or I can tick off the pillars of that, which is integrity, objectivity. professional competence, confidentiality and agility. If you can tick off all those things, I think you set yourself up well. Now, I don't lie awake at night keeping score, but I'd love to have that thing popping up when I walk into the office on every Friday morning to remind me about what it is that I want to do. How would I like to be judged for my contribution to this business or to this industry? So I just like to challenge myself that way. And I like to challenge my team that way. I must say that my team play above the line a lot better than I do. I've constantly found myself compromising that statement. it is a principle by which I can stand by and I can measure my own. I need to be satisfied that that's how I'm playing. so that's one thing that I would say. you know, in closing that. I just think, are we building that trust? And in times like this, you mentioned it, know, these circumstances, that trust is everything. Now, if I'm ringing someone, said, look, I really, really need product and I need this and I need that. And, you know, I need that person to know that I'm ringing them because I have a need and I've built up credit with them. they may ring me and say the same thing. Look, I can't get there today or tomorrow. I know your site manager is going to be pretty upset, but mate, I'll need a break. And okay, we'll do it. So I think if you can live by those principles, even in tough times, we're experiencing delays now, but we'll experience less delays than other people and I'll guarantee that. because we're making ourselves to be the, as I said to you earlier in this podcast, the builder of choice, a golden boss client, we like doing business with them. They do what they say, they're consistent in their approach. They pay on time. You can't forget those little fundamentals. And, you know, they want to do better and they want us to come along with them and they want to include us in what they're doing. that's how we overcome to the extent that we can or to mitigate some of the problems we're facing now. Yeah, wow. And it seems like it's how you hold yourself daily and why you're, you know, you will be that builder of choice. Absolutely, Pete. I don't know what to say. Like honestly, I think I know what to say. Actually, I would have loved to work underneath you. Like I love this industry. I love what I'm doing now, but you're the type of leader. Like I'm the type of guy that would love someone like you to lead me because I want to learn to be like somebody and with that integrity and everything, I think there is a bucket load to learn from you. It was seen by the podcast that we put out first, make the most listened to ever on the good builder and the amount of comments and things. I know you're not about that, but ⁓ Just everything you said today, I've learnt 10 new things. From that last podcast, there's more and just the lessons behind the continual improvement and living with a character of integrity and that relationship. There's some massive hints there for some builders out there. Well, maybe, but if you were to sum them up, they're not that many when it's all said and done. Well, I know it's been the reason why I've achieved or attained positions that I have. There can be no other reason for it other than the good Lord looking out for me. But yeah, I would encourage people just to... have a look at what you're doing and make sure you're comfortable with yourself. you're comfortable with yourself, well maybe that's the right way for you, but if you're not, well then have a good look at that too. And see if there's opportunities for how you might improve your relationship with people, not just your own staff, but your suppliers to see how, if trust is in place between you and your colleagues or you and, you know. local government or other people are extremely important in the decision making process. I mean, it's not just something you should turn on and off. You need to have it on permanently and just recalibrate it from time to time. Yeah. And you know what? I'm going to end it with this if you don't mind, but mate, was one, like again, mate, you just, you just said, challenge yourself. I think that's one thing. No one again has spoken on this podcast and I do some similar things like you. get up in the morning and I'm like, Who are you? Who are you gonna be today? What are you gonna do? Those sorts of things. Challenge yourself to be a better person. mate. Like, I think that's how you've... developed into the amazing man that you are. Mate, it has been fascinating. I want you back on. It's been great to meet you in the flesh and nice to think again, this is gonna be a great podcast, great education for all you guys and girls out there. Thank you so much, mate. You're an absolute weapon. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. I really appreciated it. Yeah, well, thank you, Go on, mate, thank you.