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Still Writing with Fire: A Screenwriter's Journey · Cinema Yūgen

• 0:00
  G'day, that's right, it's that time again. Time for CINEMA UGEN!
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  Music.
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  Yes, welcome back Ugenites. I'm still writing with fire and the reason I'm still
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  writing with fire is because I started writing with fire way back when I asked
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  the advice of a screenwriter, someone who was at where I wanted to be,
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  which is the best advice that I can give to you.
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  Ask someone who's where you want to be what they think of your game.
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  I asked Matty. His advice changed the way I looked at screenwriting, the way I approached it.
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  And because of that, hey, I've got a movie coming out later this year with Michael Paré in it.
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  So, yeah, dreams are possible. and the best advice get it from a professional
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  so welcoming back to cinema yugan we're still riding with fire because here
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  he is my mate my guru my mentor the awesome matthew.
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  Screenwriter behind 1408 reign of fire the more recent pet cemetery welcome
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  matty thank you for coming on the show mate it's been a while since we wrote
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  with fire the last time we did an interview I didn't have a microphone or any proper equipment,
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  we just banged on sticks and morse code to each other over such a long time
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  I sent a pigeon so you know communication was limited,
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  until the pigeon got eaten halfway across the Atlantic and then we lost communication,
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  as pigeons will Yeah, they just, they disappear.
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  Some, some unhappy punter who was stuck on a raft sort of flying by and said,
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  you know, there's an easy meal.
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  But how you been, mate? How's the chaos over there in Australia?
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  In Hollywood land. It's been up and down and round about.
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  You're waiting. I know you think you're waiting for the river to turn to blood
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  and the locusts to show up next, right?
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  Oh, man. It has now been almost a year since the strike, and I felt like that
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  great line in Is It the Meaning of Life?
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  You know you know who wants to join me walking up and down the square.
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  So i'm walking up and down the square
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  dude yeah so what was it like out there
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  on the uh on the lines out there in the heat i
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  mean um it was crazy well you know
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  it was interesting because you know i was i i had been through a strike
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  before back in 2007 right but this
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  one felt different i mean first of all you know
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  it was a lot fucking hotter i mean the last
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  time you know we struck it was during the fall you
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  know yeah which is you know if you're
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  gonna strike in los angeles do it then right you
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  know this was really this was
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  you know brutal summer heat i i decided
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  like early on that i was
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  gonna just do it outside of disney so you
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  know just because there's ample parking and you know blah
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  blah blah blah blah and man i i
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  you know as much as i love the studio i never
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  want to see it again for the rest of my
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  life because walking around about a billion times i just decided no no yeah
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  but it was it was but it was a different feeling i mean honestly you know this
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  strike felt much more existential than the last one i mean the The last one,
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  you know, the last one was important.
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  But this time, you know, we were, I mean, it felt like we were,
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  last one, it was just against, you know, the man, right?
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  And this time it was against the man and Skynet and, you know,
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  AI and all these things like that.
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  And, and it was a very, there was a feeling of real...
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  I don't know, you know, in the last strike in 2007, you know,
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  we have, you know, crew members, you know, sometimes, I mean,
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  a lot of the crew, you know, were very supportive, but a lot of people were
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  like, what are you doing, blah, blah, blah.
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  And this time there was total support, but I'll tell you, my favorite moment
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  in the strike, and this didn't happen in the last strike, is when the actors showed up, right?
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  And this was seriously out of Lord of the fucking Rings.
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  Can I swear on this? all right so
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  we're there we've been striking i can't remember a month a month and a half
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  blah blah and it's and the heat is
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  brutal and our numbers are kind of withering and stuff
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  like that and the big question is is sag
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  gonna make a deal or are they gonna you know
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  are they gonna come out with us right and for weeks up to
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  it they are yeah no they're gonna fall they're gonna make a deal blah blah
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  blah and then Fran Drescher bless
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  her heart gets up and gives this Saint Crispin's
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  Day speech and the next
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  day right you know all the actors show
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  up and it's like the writers of Roar
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  and you know coming over it's like
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  oh my god and our numbers like you know
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  quadruple and then but
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  then you realize and i
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  having been an actor i can say this you know when you're
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  a writer you approach these things you know like well we're writers we're the
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  kind of guy people that just you know we sit around and hunker down but actors
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  get all actory and they start playing bongos and they start and suddenly there's
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  all this acting energy around it's like i don't want I just want to march up and down the square.
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  I don't want to play bonkos and do karaoke and stuff, but I appreciate it.
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  But anyway, so yeah, so that was five months out of my life, out of every life.
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  And it was necessary, but at the same time, it was...
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  Hard and you know we still haven't recovered i mean we're still in this just
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  you know twilight zone out here so you know
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  yeah it seems like it seems like an entangled quagmire
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  i mean everything that i was involved with just disappeared i
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  mean thank yeah thankfully thankfully on the indie film scene it's it's it hasn't
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  been too bad i've yeah happily so i've been gainfully employed quite a few times
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  writing scripts this year so it's um yeah you've been doing really well congrats
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  man yeah i mean it's you know different i mean look there's there's different level different levels,
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  to everyone's hell.
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  We're all in dante's inferno it's just like
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  whether you know you're at the point where you know where you're in
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  the lake of fire or you know you're at the
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  bottom you know frozen in ice stuff like that i'm starting
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  to believe what all matt said in big trouble little china you know
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  chinese have a lot of hells yeah yeah you know
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  but yeah
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  no it's it's it's weird and and
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  and the amount of the amount of even things that
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  happen normally seem to have dried up and as i
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  was talking to someone the other day it feels like everyone's waiting
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  yeah for something yeah well
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  and or as you say waiting for the actors to show up or waiting
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  for the elves to show up or you know someone yeah well
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  no the new phrase that well it's not new it's just i began
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  hearing it a while ago is um try to survive till 25 and somebody asked me like
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  a non-industry person asked me what happens in 2025 and it's like i don't know
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  but you know it's like oh yeah i mean I mean, look,
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  it can't be worse, can it? Oh, yes, it can.
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  It can get a lot fucking worse, dude. Dude, that is the thing, you know? I mean...
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  And this is what I tell my students, you know, when I teach,
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  you know, it's if there's one thing I've learned out in this business,
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  it's it's, you know, that it's ephemeral and,
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  you know, shit can happen that you would not believe.
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  I mean, you know, the whole, it's like in Wag the Dog, right?
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  You know, with Dustin Hoffman, yeah, this is nothing.
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  You should have seen, we're doing four writers of the month into shooting,
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  three of the writers die, I
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  mean You must be shake, Ramone remind me to turn over in 15 minutes to 10.
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  In an hour But, you know, I mean, part of that and lest we forget that,
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  that script was written by David Mamet, who had,
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  you know, a lot of very witty things to say about Hollywood and,
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  and, and especially about the, the, the intersection between like Hollywood
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  and Washington, you know, and politics entertainment and how sort of oddly similar they are.
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  I like that. I like that other film he did. That was, what was it?
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  State in Maine. Oh God. That was brilliant.
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  Yeah. That's a great movie. Yeah. Great movie. The old, the old mill.
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  Yeah. The old mill. yeah you huskies yeah
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  you huskies yeah well no and that's and
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  actually that's one of those i i normally am not like
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  i'm usually wary about movies about making
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  movies that that really captured a certain gonzo element to it you know yeah
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  and especially obviously especially just watching philip seymour hoffman as
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  the screenwriter he's just looking so beleaguered all.
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  Yeah yeah i mean i mean yeah i mean it's almost the extremes you know to which
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  to which it could go like the fact that you know they that the chick that he
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  likes sets sets up a trial so he can you know get it out of his system but i
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  didn't i didn't do it doesn't matter it wasn't real.
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  Yeah and and the product i love the product placement the producers come around.
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  With the bank full of money you know oh my oh my god that was just lovely and
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  that that that that great moment yeah where where the where the where the producer
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  comes and drops the money and
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  the guy goes you know what's that it's like that that's yours yeah and then
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  suddenly you know what's actually a great moment too and this is like one of
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  my all-time favorite things,
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  is when sarah jessica parker is refusing
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  to go on you know to do a nude scene and david paymer gets out the producer
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  gets on the phone with his agent with her agent and she's like let me tell you
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  motherfucker i am going to destroy her and i'm going to destroy you and i'm
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  going to burn you know just all the things all right you understand me okay
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  my love to marion see you later,
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  which is just which is just lovely it's
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  just it's it is so indicative of the level of discourse that that you see i
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  mean you know in hollywood but in other places you know this sort of type level
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  reality that people yeah well like the two guys who are in the in the in the
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  diner constantly And by the end,
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  they're both reading Variety. Right, right.
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  They're both checking the trades to see what's, you know, what the buzz is.
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  But no, it can be infecting. And I mean, you know, another thing I wanted to
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  talk to you about too, I mean, you know, this IP thing, I think,
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  has really gone absolutely insane.
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  I mean, they're flogging a dead horse with a lot of these franchises.
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  I mean, I watched the new Ghost, or the last, newest Ghostbusters recently,
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  and Wonka, and a few of those ones that I'd sort of missed out on, and yeah, I mean, wow,
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  I mean, it's, it's, someone said it really good the other day,
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  they said it's almost like, these are all the greatest hits from your childhood
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  sort of thing, but they're being played by cover bands.
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  That's that's absolutely it that
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  is absolutely it and the way you know
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  it or the other the other thing that that i would say is it's like it's like
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  a copy of a copy of a copy you know it's like you can see the general shape
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  but the edges are kind of fuzzy right yeah yeah it was like that new alien picture
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  that was sort of like you know you like this bit from the first aliens there it
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  is you like this bit from aliens there it is you like this bit from alien 3 there it is,
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  yeah like a greatest hits album that's played by every band except for the original.
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  You know artist no it's it's true but you know i mean to an extent i mean that's
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  been going on to a greater or
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  lesser extent for a while but you'd be surprised like how many times like,
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  you know you call up my your agent say hey i got a great piece of ip it's like
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  no no no they're not looking for ip anymore what yeah they were just looking
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  at this morning yeah no no ip's dead you know they don't want to they want to
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  they want to go man oh okay great so you spend like
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  weeks going on, you know, and you call up, okay, I got this new spec. Oh yeah.
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  Okay. So what's it based on? What do you mean? What's it based on? What, what IP?
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  It's like, you told me it in the, I wonder who told you that.
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  Because again, you know, it just goes and you just have to just,
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  you know, it's, it's like those, I don't know what they're called,
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  but you know, like casinos, those wheels that they spin.
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  And if you're lucky, you know, when you go in with your project,
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  it just happens, you know, the
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  wheel just stops at, oh yes, we need this and then I did it, but the IP,
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  no, I mean, it's, it's, and it's really all about, look, they, people, you know.
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  A people like us want to get projects made the people, you know,
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  in the studios don't want to get fired, you know?
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  So the solution is IP, you know?
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  Yeah. I mean, look, it's always been, It's always easier to sell something that
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  has existed before because the banking on the built-in audience.
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  But yeah, I don't know. I mean, so many films have, you know,
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  I mean, this whole theory, if it does well, there's going to be another one.
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  If it doesn't, that's thrown into doubt, you know, like what happened with Dr.
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  George's Furiosa picture, which was an incredible picture.
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  But now, obviously, because it hasn't made over $500 million or close to a billion
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  dollars, anything else now is thrown in doubt, whereas Deadpool does over a billion dollars.
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  So you're damn skippy there's probably going to be another one at some point,
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  whether or not Hugh Jackman's in it. Yeah.
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  Anyone's guess. But yeah, I don't know.
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  I mean, it's crazy. it's like you said the twilight zone
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  stuff that should work doesn't work or maybe it's
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  like alice in wonderland up is down and back is
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  for forward and right is left and
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  yeah yeah no i mean dude and that's the thing i mean that's why again you know
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  a lot of people in hollywood have gambling addictions i mean you know because
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  it's really you don't know come on you're eating into my online poker time here.
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  Exactly. Well, no. And that's the thing, you know, because when it comes down
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  to, you know, and that's one of the things that always.
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  Impresses me or has impressed me in the
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  past is when people have taken risks on just
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  crazy shit i'll tell you one story which has
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  always stayed with me years ago i had a project with this producer jerry weintraub
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  and jerry weintraub is a huge dude right yes and i walked into his office it
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  was the first time i was in his office and i noticed there's this picture for
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  robert altman's Nashville, right?
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  I'm like, oh my God, Jerry, I totally forgot that you produced that.
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  It's like, that's amazing.
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  And he just shook his head and he said, you have no idea how hard that was to get going.
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  I said, what are you talking about? It was a great script. It was Robert Altman.
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  He says, nobody got the script.
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  Nobody. I had to flag this for years.
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  And that's the real thing, man. And, you know, it's the people who,
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  this is where a producer really earns their stripes.
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  You know, it's like they will carry, you know, it's sort of like Sisyphus, right?
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  They're consistently pushing it up because unlike Sisyphus, there's this little
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  minute chance you'll actually make it to the edge, right? You know? Yeah.
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  But that's like, and I think I may have said that to you, you know, I mean, the main,
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  you know, when people say, you know, know what's the secrets of success in hollywood
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  and it's like you know i i really don't know but i know one of the main aspects
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  is you don't give up you know because oh yeah yeah i mean no,
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  i was told very early on that you have to take no like maybe yeah because i
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  mean nine times like i mean for instance 10 years ago when i still couldn't get anyone just
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  to even read the work and just even say whether it was good or bad or, hey,
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  look, you can spell. That's fantastic.
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  That's a cohesive sentence. You are far, lad.
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  Well done. That just proves that being a high school alcoholic does not affect you.
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  Yeah, and, you know, skip ahead, you know, 10 years and I'm getting paid now to write screenplays.
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  I mean, the secret wasn't really the books or, yes, of course,
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  the advice from great blokes like yourself,
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  but that's all worth nothing if you don't keep doing it.
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  Like Randall Frakes once said to me, the hell comes to Frogtown chat,
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  he was like, just write, write, write, write, write. Right. Like when they say,
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  if you want to be a dancer, obviously not like Ray Gunn.
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  If you want to be a dancer, dance, dance like no one's looking,
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  but dance, but dance when everyone's not looking like everyone is looking,
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  you know what I mean? Exactly.
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  Exactly. Yeah. So like with you, you know, and I could tell this,
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  you know, really from the beginning, you know, it's like you,
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  you have the love, you know, and the, you know, the love for this.
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  Right. and that's the other essential aspect of it because if you don't have
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  the love and you know it's really
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  interesting i i meet a lot of people who you know they have the dream.
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  The you know they might even have the talent you
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  know or the the moves but if they don't have the love which let's face it is
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  a little bit like a kind of fanaticism right you know oh yeah then then it's hard to stay in the game.
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  I mean, the guy who started my career,
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  Years and years ago, no, fortunately he died very young, but he had a great,
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  he had a great interchange with his wife.
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  He was a writer director, right? And at one point they were under such financial
• 20:31
  stress, you know, and his wife was just saying, you know, George, what are you doing?
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  You know, they're going to, could you understand, you know, they're going to
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  come and they're going to arrest you and they're going to put you in jail.
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  And George, without missing a beat, says that's great.
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  Finally, I will have some peace and quiet so I can write.
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  And George meant it. He meant it.
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  And that's the thing, man.
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  You know, I mean, you know, when you have the love, I mean, fucking Thomas Mallory
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  wrote, you know, Le Morte d'Artois in prison, you know?
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  I mean, how many great, you know,
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  yeah yeah and i'm sure if there
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  had been movies back then he would have done the screenplay but yeah no no i
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  had to wait for john i have to thank you for your recommendation too and i'll
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  probably put a link to it in in the description was the oh i'm glad you like
• 21:27
  that what happened next what a fantastic book for anyone who's,
• 21:33
  interested in in what we're babbling about yes writing for the movies that's
• 21:38
  a fantastic book Mark Norman. I'll put the link in the description.
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  The Writer of Shakespeare in Love, also another fantastic film,
• 21:45
  very deserving winner of an Academy Award for its screenwriting. It really was.
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  Brilliant, brilliant. Fantastic screenplay. I mean, that's one thing I say to
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  people too when they ask, I said, yeah, you're asking the wrong man for advice, asking me.
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  But you should always ask someone for advice who's at where you want to be and
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  i said you didn't want to be me yeah.
• 22:13
  Well, you know the great story, I can't remember what the situation was,
• 22:18
  but Klaus Kinski, and this is towards the end of his life, he was at some restaurant
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  and he was drinking coffee, you know, and just being Klaus Kinski.
• 22:27
  And this poor actor came up to him and he says, are you Klaus Kinski, dude?
• 22:33
  Yes. And he's like, I just want to say, Mr. Kinski, I admire your work,
• 22:39
  and I've always wanted to be you.
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  And Klaus Kinski looked up at him through bloodshot, roomy eyes that had seen
• 22:45
  out and said, probably in German, which I can't really speak very well,
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  but he said, why in God's name would you ever want to be me?
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  But but i say them to buy you know to read
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  screenplays which i've been doing for a while i
• 23:03
  mean you can get so many online but i i buy the the books
• 23:07
  like i bought oppenheimer so i saw it last year
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  and um i read i've never
• 23:13
  read any of wes anderson's scripts but they published um asteroid
• 23:16
  city and i i read that to see what his construction
• 23:19
  you know was um yeah it was like too
• 23:22
  which is very very wordy which sort of went
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  against you know sort of some of the stuff that you were telling me
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  you know as opposed to christopher nolan who really has that that
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  beautiful sparse quality to his yeah
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  writing which is absolutely and i love the first
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  person stuff that's the reason why i wanted to see it because
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  uh i'd heard oh yeah yeah i'd like
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  to see a whole i've i've got a bit
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  of an idea to have a crack at writing a whole thing like that
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  in the first person to see how it how it plays
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  out but um well you know what's good about that about
• 23:56
  doing something like that is and and i
• 23:59
  think you should you know whether or not it works it
• 24:02
  doesn't matter because when you do something like that right it's.
• 24:05
  Like you're exercising you know how you go to the gym and you
• 24:09
  know you're used to a certain routine but
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  then you're like oh maybe i'll change it up maybe i'll do this and it's like holy
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  shit there's this muscle i never knew i had than
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  if i work it and that's what it did
• 24:21
  so much of it is about breaking out of
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  set ways of doing things and that's where
• 24:28
  you find these hidden catches of treasure you know i mean again you're if you
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  do it first person the screenplay might not work but you will find something
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  you know and that's maybe something that's really really useful later on like
• 24:43
  in In the particular scenes.
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  Because the whole script is obviously not written that way, but in the scene
• 24:49
  where he does use it, and then you sit and watch the movie and look at those
• 24:54
  scenes, you see where that perspective makes sense.
• 24:59
  As opposed to when, if you read a Coen Brothers script, how they don't...
• 25:05
  They don't always break down when they're breaking down a scene as you normally would.
• 25:10
  And you would have the different, you know, slug lines.
• 25:13
  They'll keep one slug line and then just in caps, say, you know,
• 25:17
  from across the room or on the other side of the room.
• 25:20
  And rather than break it up into this, this, this, this, it's,
• 25:23
  it's this, but then you're across the room back across the other side and it's
• 25:28
  not, it flows, you know, so.
• 25:31
  They're beautiful. I constantly go back and read Coen Brothers scripts just
• 25:36
  for you know the artistry just what you're saying but they can also do it in
• 25:41
  that certain way as can Nolan because,
• 25:44
  they know they're directing it right you know and it's like as opposed to a
• 25:48
  schmuck like me you know it's like you can't direct you know I have to do it so,
• 25:55
  it's you know it will make sense to a director and you know Totally.
• 26:03
  But, no, it is always a good thing to, you know, read great work.
• 26:13
  I mean, Robert Towne passed this year. Everyone always says Chinatown. I always say network.
• 26:17
  People ask me what's the great script that you read for inspiration. I always read network.
• 26:24
  Oh, God. It's fantastic.
• 26:27
  Unbelievable. Unbelievable. and
• 26:31
  so well so ahead of
• 26:34
  its time but not one wasted
• 26:38
  word or scene i mean
• 26:41
  that is just it's like you know it's it's it's poetry you know of a kind i've
• 26:49
  got a t-shirt that says i'm not wearing it now but it's i just ran out of bullshit
• 26:53
  i just what's wrong with you I just ran out of bullshit.
• 27:00
  Well, and you know, it's cool too because as you know, Chayefsky was one of
• 27:04
  the last, you know, writers to have essentially final cut on his script.
• 27:09
  They could not change a word, you know, and that was of course the big problem
• 27:12
  with Altered States because, you know, and Russell was, you know, wanted to change it.
• 27:18
  He said, fuck you, and Ken Russell said, hey, let's have William Hurt just,
• 27:21
  you know, do his shit like, you know, 10 million miles an hour, you know.
• 27:26
  And it's crazy stuff but you know like you say the the best advice too is aside from all of that is,
• 27:33
  you have to you have to stick with it and and also what
• 27:37
  you were saying too about the love i think it's also the love too you have to
• 27:41
  love sitting down and putting words on a page and using your you know getting
• 27:47
  lost in that that old-fashioned sort of childhood thing where you You go off
• 27:52
  into make-believe land,
• 27:54
  but you're recording it at the same time with a pen and a pad or your laptop,
• 27:59
  whichever is your, you know, preference.
• 28:02
  So, yeah, I think it's that too. I think you have to really want to love to sit down.
• 28:08
  And constantly use your imagination or, you know, if it's something you're being
• 28:12
  paid for, take someone else's story and, you know, try and sit and, you know.
• 28:18
  Know these movies that i write unlike yours are small
• 28:21
  films made for very little money but that doesn't
• 28:24
  mean that they can't be written as as big
• 28:28
  and as splendid as i can fit inside the little
• 28:30
  sandbox you know no and that's and by the way
• 28:33
  that it doesn't matter you know i mean
• 28:36
  and i really mean that you know whether you
• 28:40
  know as you know bigger does not necessarily mean
• 28:44
  better you know i mean it is
• 28:47
  the act of creation is itself a beautiful
• 28:51
  thing and you know i think part of what can
• 28:55
  cloud us as writers are these
• 28:58
  perceptions oh well i'm writing this script but i really should be writing for
• 29:02
  spielberg it's like no no no no you should be writing what you're writing and
• 29:09
  you should write it with your whole heart because that is where the joy is but
• 29:13
  the The experience you're talking about,
• 29:15
  about just like.
• 29:18
  Being on the page right i mean i
• 29:22
  mean that's that is a
• 29:24
  kind of a magic you know and it's really
• 29:28
  interesting and as you know obviously when you're a screenwriter you
• 29:31
  have no control and you're not directing it you have no control to what how
• 29:35
  it's going to be rewritten or we realize that like that but you do have that
• 29:40
  beautiful moment in your head where it exists in that moment on your page to
• 29:45
  where it exists and it's sort of like the way i describe it to friends it's like,
• 29:50
  obviously when you go to a movie you can re-watch the movie again
• 29:53
  again but let's say you go to a play right and you see a
• 29:56
  performance that performance only exists
• 29:59
  once you know in that moment in
• 30:01
  time but it's gonna be if it's good performance it's
• 30:05
  going to be in it's going to be with you forever and that's amazing that's why
• 30:09
  i feel like a lot about you know the act of creation you know it's just it's
• 30:14
  it's that that gives you the high you know oh totally that and when you that
• 30:19
  and when your movie comes out on dvd you take the dvd and you rub it on yourself,
• 30:25
  all the right places and it makes you feel all warm and cuddly.
• 30:32
  That's where i get my juice i rub my dvd
• 30:36
  is all over myself it's pretty good i'm
• 30:39
  so glad you know when we when when we
• 30:42
  first met you hadn't you know had your first movie out
• 30:44
  yet and i was so happy when you when you got it because i was like yeah man
• 30:49
  you got now you know what it's like now you know the feeling i mean there's
• 30:52
  nothing like now now i've got this now the blood's in the water yeah exactly
• 30:58
  i got black eyes lifeless eyes like i got,
• 31:03
  When I come at you, I don't seem to be living till I bite you.
• 31:08
  Another black guy's roll over white.
• 31:13
  I'll never put on a life jacket again.
• 31:18
  Matty, listen, before we run out of time, thank you very much for being on Cinema
• 31:23
  Ugin. It's been fantastic as always.
• 31:25
  My pleasure, dude. It's always such a great time talking to you.
• 31:29
  Yeah, we've come a long ways together, fought many battles, had great victories,
• 31:33
  and now, setting Shikura home across the sea, we must fight again. Yes, exactly.
• 31:39
  Maybe there's no peace in this world for us or anyone else. Also,
• 31:42
  I don't know, but I do know that as long as we live, we must be true to ourselves.
• 31:48
  Exactly, my friend. Well, I truly, yeah, you are one of the chosen, my dude.
• 31:58
  You've got the love and you've got the talent. So, you know, go on.
• 32:03
  Yes, I'd love to have a beer with Matty because the atmosphere would be great.
• 32:08
  I'd love to have a beer with Matty because Matty's me mate. If you want good
• 32:13
  advice, get advice from somebody who is at where you want to be.
• 32:18
  I'm here to say it worked for me. Check out the links in the description for
• 32:24
  some of the books and screenplays we talked about.
• 32:27
  And as always, thank you, little Eugonites, for listening to us on Spotify or
• 32:33
  wherever you choose to listen to your favorite podcasts.
• 32:37
  I'm Kent Hill, and we'll see you next time on the one and only Cinema.
• 32:44
  Music.