Latest / Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community / Leading Differently Together | APEST Finale With Daria Nardozza

Transcript

Leading Differently Together | APEST Finale With Daria Nardozza · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

0:01
If we are to get serious about our cities in
0:04
Canada, what is that gonna look like? And, God, do
0:08
something new and better, because your way is better. How do we do
0:11
that? How do I make room for God to do bigger and
0:15
better things in my heart, in my city, in my
0:19
country. What does loving your neighbor
0:22
actually look like? This is Journey
0:26
with Care, where curious Canadians get inspired to love
0:29
others well through real life stories and honest conversations.
0:39
Hey, curious sojourners. We're wrapping up our series Leading Differently
0:42
Together. And, oh my goodness, we have been on a journey. We've heard
0:46
some brilliant and experienced people from across Canada, even
0:50
one from the UK, who share their stories, their insight, and even
0:53
challenge us on how we can lead better together. I hope you've been
0:57
following along, but if you've not caught all the episodes yet, you have some fun
1:01
binge listening to do as you're stuck in traffic or maybe tackling that load of
1:05
laundry. Well, in the Ephesians 411 to
1:08
12, it says, God gives some to be apostles, prophets,
1:12
evangelists, shepherds, and teachers to equip the saints for the
1:16
work of ministry for building up the body of Christ. And as you
1:20
followed the series, heard stories, and listened to our guests illustrate what this
1:24
means in a Canadian context, I'm curious, which of the 5
1:27
resonate most with you? Were there things that made you curious?
1:31
We'd love to hear from you. We've got the communication lines open, so head
1:35
over to journey with care dotca. We read and
1:39
respond to each and every one of you, so we hope to hear from
1:43
you. I'm your host, Wendy Park, joined by producer, Johan
1:47
Hinrichs. And in studio today, we have a special guest who
1:50
is my favorite person to wrap up this series with me. She's
1:54
from Montreal, Quebec, and she loves the Church and has made it her
1:57
life's purpose to help city Church networks thrive all across
2:01
Canada. Currently, she's the domestic lead with
2:04
Kentro and COO of City Leaders
2:08
Collective and part time doctoral student, studying
2:12
CareImpact Networks. She's a busy person, but I'm thrilled to
2:16
introduce to you Daria Nardosa. Welcome to the podcast,
2:19
Daria. Thank you so much, Wendy. It's really a delight to be
2:23
here with you and, and Johan as well. Well, it it's so
2:27
good to have you here. And listing off the things, the many hats that
2:31
you wear, I imagine it took sacrifice to to make us part
2:34
of your schedule. Tell me a little bit more of those hats that that
2:38
you wear, maybe starting with the CLC, the the
2:42
City Leaders Collective. What is that all about? Yeah. Sure.
2:45
So, City Leaders Collective is something we're just sort
2:49
of shaping and starting. I'm working on it with, Eric
2:53
Swanson and Rob Kelly who live in the US, But we all
2:56
just have a heart to see city networks and city network
3:00
leaders flourish, and have developed some frameworks
3:03
around that and just bringing the city Church together for
3:07
the good of the city. I've been doing this work in Canada for the last
3:10
few years. Well, on a Canada wide level for the last few years,
3:14
and led a city network in the West Island of Montreal, for
3:18
about 5 years. And just, yeah, something I'm super
3:22
passionate about, seeing happen. And then, I'm also doing my my doctoral
3:26
studies with Eric and Rob to study CareImpact networks and
3:29
city networks as well, just trying to figure out what this very
3:33
new thing looks like. Yeah. And there's many ways
3:37
that we have connected and become good friends over this, but we've really geeked out
3:41
on these topics, and I have really valued having
3:44
conversations with you because you are so focused
3:54
website for CLC, your mission statement is very similar to
3:58
ours but unique, but you also connect and equip. We
4:01
connect and equip the whole Church. We're working more on the congregation members.
4:05
How do we get them flourishing in the communities? But your mission statement, actually,
4:09
is to connect and equip city network leaders for the flourishing
4:13
of their cities. So looking at that whole network, can you tell me a little
4:16
bit Wendi we say network, what do you mean by
4:19
network? Yeah. So we do kinda three things, which is
4:23
connecting like you do, but helping city
4:27
networks and city network leaders have this place to connect
4:30
and and grow with each other. And we we try to sort
4:34
of curate tools and content to help them do that, and we have a couple
4:37
frameworks. And then we coach. We just started a coaching
4:41
cohort. Now we have 20 cities about that are part of that. So
4:44
coaching city networks really to be able to grow and
4:48
kind of win at their day job. But a lot of people are kinda like,
4:51
well, what? I don't get it. Like, what's a city network? Mhmm. That's sort of
4:55
the first question, and and Rob, who I work with, sort
4:59
of created this framework. And, I mean, a framework is just a framework. It's not
5:02
like capital t truth, but it's just something that's easy and portable
5:06
to help us explain what is a city network. And so if you could
5:09
imagine, like, a Venn diagram, you know, with 3 circles, and if and
5:13
if the middle is transform lives in cities, we
5:17
would say we would do that through the 4 greats, which, you know,
5:21
one of the circles would be love, which is the great commandment. You
5:25
know, love God and love your neighbor as yourself. So how are we doing that
5:28
in a city? And then making disciples, which would be the great
5:32
commission, and, you know, we're called to go and make disciples, and
5:35
then to serve, which is the great compassion, and I would even say
5:39
justice, but how are we serving and loving our
5:43
communities and our neighbors and our cities, and then the great
5:46
collaboration, which is really what Jesus prayed in John 17, that the Church
5:50
would be 1 in the city. And so how are we doing those three
5:53
things together, the 4 greats, the great commandment, the great
5:57
commission, the great compassion, and doing that collaboratively
6:01
in a city so that we could see true city transformation. And
6:05
so that's sort of what a city network leader would
6:09
wake up and think about in the morning. Like, how are we doing that as
6:12
a city Church in our community? And then I guess that kinda leads to what
6:16
what's Kentro. Right. And so I I would say
6:19
Kentro, you know, they're doing the great compassion really well.
6:23
They're networking people across Canada. We're networking people
6:27
across Canada to better understand Christian community development
6:30
and how we work with our cities and with our
6:34
communities to see transformation happen because that's really
6:37
what we're called to as the Church of the city. And just for context,
6:41
yeah, and I'm part of that advisory team. We've been helping get it off
6:45
the ground together with many others as well. But
6:49
there's actually 22100 Canadian Christian charities
6:52
doing local community development across our country. That's a lot.
6:56
And and in context with Churches, there's over
6:59
25,000 Churches across Canada. And they also
7:03
have a desire to to be in a community engagement, to
7:07
collaborate, but sometimes the infrastructure isn't there or or
7:11
the way to, the how to. The willpower is there, but
7:14
the how power is maybe, needing development here at a
7:18
local level. And I would imagine back to the networking
7:22
piece, what do you see across our nation? Meng, you said there
7:26
was 20 city networks that you've identified and that you're working with at
7:29
different levels. Are they all the same, or do you see
7:33
wide differences, variety in how they they
7:37
work together in their own cities? Yeah. No. They're
7:40
they're definitely not all the same. And I and even as I learn more about
7:44
city networks that are happening in the US and around the
7:48
world, I mean, they all, to some degree, look different because every
7:51
city is different, and the people in the city are different. And
7:55
so, I mean, like I said, this framework is just a framework. But, for
7:59
example, what this looked like in the West Island, how we did
8:02
this, the great commandment. I mean, the West Island network was sort of birthed
8:06
out of, an exegetical study of the community where pastors started to
8:10
pray together, which led to them
8:13
eventually hiring me to say, help us do this better. And so
8:17
to do the great commandment, we prayed together 4 times a year.
8:21
We brought the Churches together beyond just the pastors to pray together for the
8:25
city. We did different initiatives like that. And then making
8:29
disciples, I mean, that's probably something we didn't do as
8:32
well. However, you know, something I was very intentional about as
8:36
city network leader is that I met with every single mayor in my community, every
8:40
community organization, and so everything was very relational,
8:44
representing Churches that care about their neighborhood and their community. And so
8:47
and then every month, I would write a write up on how the Church could
8:51
pray for this mayor, this city, this community organization,
8:55
and then got them involved with that. And then, eventually, I
8:59
also discovered that working with pastors was sometimes
9:02
to really get out and do the great compassion and to serve our community
9:06
was sometimes hard to just do with our pastor's network. And so I I
9:10
asked all the pastors to recommend someone on their team that from their
9:14
Church that really has a heart for their neighborhood and their community. And we we
9:17
formed this CATE team, community action and impact team, where
9:21
together as Churches, we discovered how we could better serve our community.
9:25
And I also facilitated in our community our poverty reduction and social
9:29
inclusion roundtable and just got super involved with serving the
9:32
community, but doing that with the Church, with the community, and really trying to
9:36
bridge those gaps of working collaboratively in
9:40
our city. And so that's what it looked like in the West
9:43
Island of Montreal. We did different events to, helped with,
9:47
refugee support and, yeah, just really got involved in
9:51
many different ways. But what it looked like for us in Montreal would look
9:55
really different for my friend Rob in Charlotte or
9:58
for my friends in Vancouver or Ottawa, but there is
10:02
something stirring across the country. You know? And, also, as we see
10:05
the Church declining, 4,500 Churches have shut down in
10:09
Canada, I believe they say, in the last 10 years, and they actually predict
10:13
that in the next 10 years, up to 10,000 Churches might close
10:17
in Canada. So as the Church declines, we need to
10:20
learn to work better together as Christians across our
10:24
city to do those 4 greats really well. Well, I think
10:27
that's really important to highlight and underscore
10:31
because we're not just talking how can the Church be
10:34
social good in the community, but how can we bring
10:38
nutrients and life and vitality and flourishing within the
10:42
local Church? Because there's a crisis there as well that, like,
10:46
there's mutual benefits to cities
10:49
flourishing for the Church and for the greater community.
10:53
And that's where CareImpact is excited to partner with you and
10:57
and some of the developments that you're working on as well as we are able
11:00
to bring some practical ways that Churches can engage
11:04
their community for collective CareImpact, working with other Churches, working
11:08
across ecosystems of different social services and and different
11:11
sectors working together, and some some resources to I
11:15
hear some pain points from pastors and leaders saying, we have
11:19
good vision for compassion, but we you know what? We have a hard time
11:22
even getting volunteers for our kids program. It's sobering when you said
11:26
45 100 Churches across Canada have closed and there's
11:29
more coming. How do we help revitalize
11:33
the Church and bring discipleship back central so that their
11:37
congregation members aren't a liability but an asset to the community,
11:41
an asset to the pastors and leaders that have been called to
11:45
lead. And, I think that's great. I'm just wondering,
11:48
though, like, did you just wake up one day and say,
11:52
hey. I would love to do networking with Churches in Canada and be
11:56
that specific, or were you a little girl with pigtails saying,
11:59
one day, I'm gonna, like, do what you see yourselves doing now? Or how did
12:03
you even get into this? But I'm curious about your backstory of
12:07
what led you into this very needed role that
12:11
you have in Canada. Well, I grew up in Montreal, which,
12:14
as most of you know, doesn't have a large Christian community. I
12:18
didn't grow up in a Christian home. I'm a second of 4 kids.
12:22
And actually, when my parents were going through a divorce Wendi was
12:26
10, 11, 12, my mom shipped the 4 of us off
12:30
to my grandparents' house 6 hours away, and that's where I first
12:33
actually learned about Jesus and and sort of was introduced to
12:37
this faith in God. But I really only became a
12:41
Christian when I was, 16, which was a pretty big 180 for
12:44
me without going into all those details. And, actually, when I was
12:48
17, that was my grade 11 year. And, I saved kind of worked
12:52
2 jobs, saved all my money so that when I was 17, I could go
12:55
to bible school and just figure out who God was. And it was there,
12:58
those couple years, that I sort of felt this call
13:02
to maybe ministry that I was trying to figure out. Yeah. Long
13:06
story short, I kinda I ended up doing my bachelor's degree in
13:10
counseling and psychology, where I think I sort of just counseled my way through my
13:14
life in that degree and was planning to go do a master's degree in
13:17
counseling, and I think my pastor saw my apostolic
13:21
gifting and challenged me and said, no. You shouldn't you
13:25
you shouldn't do a counseling degree, Daria. And
13:29
that's when he introduced me to one of my mentors, doctor
13:32
Glenn Smith, who actually helped me through my my graduate
13:36
studies in, global urban leadership or ministry, so
13:39
studying the social effects of globalization and urbanization and what
13:43
Churches could be doing better in cities, really. And that's what really introduced
13:47
me to the city work. At the time, I was working for Wendi 7 prayer
13:50
Canada and international, and so I contextualized all my
13:54
studies to prayer mission and justice in cities in Canada. And I
13:58
I mean, I think I always had this heart for the Church and for unity.
14:02
And then when it came to starting a network for my city, I
14:05
didn't know what that was. I mean, I I no no one at the time
14:09
really we're all trying to figure it out. And so as I got more
14:13
into that, I think that's what really grew my heart for this kind of
14:16
work. So I find it interesting that you you mentioned that
14:20
your pastor drew it out of you, that shepherd leader within in the
14:24
congregation. We've listened to to an episode previous with,
14:28
my Wendi, reverend Vince Solomon, on shepherding, but
14:31
he drew it out of you and inspired you and saw that
14:35
apostolic gift within you that has set you on this path. And I
14:39
can see how that apostolic gifting
14:42
has served well for the local Church in
14:46
Montreal, within your network, but also in the studies
14:50
and the work you're doing across city networks because it
14:53
requires a lot of creativity, thinking outside the box, a lot of
14:57
listening to social context, but also listening to
15:01
God, all of those things. So that's beautiful to hear. We're
15:04
wrapping up a series here leading differently together, and I think this is
15:08
a good segue to reflect on some of the the
15:11
previous episodes that we've been going through with Ephesians
15:15
4, and I thought maybe you and I could just
15:19
dialogue a little bit on each of those those episodes
15:22
that we've listened to and that I've been able to be a
15:26
part of. And I would love your perspective too on what you're
15:30
seeing in city networks, and I imagine that you're working across a lot
15:33
of diversities of giftings, within that. So let's
15:37
dive right into the apostolic. I was interviewing Donovan
15:41
Friesen, pastor here in Winnipeg. Was there anything there
15:44
that stood out to you and and the work that you're doing in city
15:48
networks? Well, I I loved Donovan's
15:51
interview. He was one of my favorites, probably because that's also my
15:55
It resonated. Right? Oh, really resonated. And I'm like, I
15:59
wanna be more like him when I grow up. I loved how I assume prophetic
16:03
is his second. Mhmm. But I don't know. I don't know if he said that.
16:07
And and I think as an apostolic leader, something and I
16:10
actually thought that my second was prophetic. It's not. It's evangelism
16:14
that I and I was kinda disappointed because I I feel like
16:18
I feel like I I feel like as an apostolic leader, you have to
16:21
be, like, prophetic because you when you're doing it long enough,
16:25
you learn that, like, you can't do this without God. Right. And I think
16:29
Kath would say in the interview with the the prophetic that everyone
16:33
we can all hear God, and so there's a piece that we can grow that
16:36
muscle. And I assume that even with your work with 247
16:40
prayer that you grew that muscle, to be able to hear the voice of God.
16:44
So that prophetic isn't not there. It's just maybe not as prominent as
16:47
the other ones that evangelism surprised you, didn't it? Totally. Yeah.
16:51
Yeah. And so I just I loved how how he really highlights
16:55
it in his story that he, as an apostolic leader,
16:59
also relies heavily on being led by God
17:02
in prayer. Prayer is, like, such an important part of his life and
17:06
his ministry and being led by, you know,
17:10
take taking risks and doing these things that he's done and
17:13
and being a builder that he talks about. You know, I I think we can't
17:17
do that as an apostolic leader without being super
17:21
prayerful and living really close to God. Yeah.
17:24
And do you notice in the city networks that you're working with across
17:28
Canada that apostolic leadership integrated,
17:32
in those those teams across the cities? Do you see that
17:35
coming out in the work you're doing? Oh, yeah. Like, I feel
17:39
like most people who lead city networks are those apostolic,
17:43
entrepreneurial kind of giftings,
17:46
personalities. Because there's so much unknown about this
17:50
area, and we're all trying to figure it out, You kinda have to be a
17:54
little bit that way. And I think one of the apostolic giftings that came
17:57
out also in in my interview with him is that we need everybody
18:01
around the table, and and that is important and and that the
18:05
apostolic leader is able to draw. They're not trying to be the
18:09
prominent one on the stage, but they're able to see something that's broken or or
18:12
see something that could be created into alignment
18:16
and and draw the giftings from other people around them
18:19
to really cause it to flourish. Because I I
18:23
also carry that that kind of wiring within
18:26
me. And I like to start things. It's not like I
18:30
I leave things hanging, but I also depend on other
18:33
giftings around me to keep it flourishing. And I think that's
18:37
an important thing to to highlight of of what he was
18:41
talking about. We are disruptors, but hopefully for a good
18:45
for the good when we're healthy. Right? What about, the prophetic? We
18:48
talked a little bit about, Kath Livesey. One of the things that her
18:52
quote that I will always have in memory here is she made
18:56
it so simple and and obviously because she she talks about
18:59
accessible prophecy is is her ministry, but it's
19:03
really hearing God speaking and repeating what he says. I
19:07
thought that was kind of a a profound way of of looking
19:10
at the prophetic. My question to you is, like, how do
19:14
you see the prophetic across Canada? How is it expressed?
19:18
How is it being vocalized across the city networks? Where do you see
19:22
this expression? Yeah. I love too how she wants to make
19:25
it more accessible. And I think when we hear prophetic, we think, oh, that's
19:29
not me or, oh, that's only like for a few, but
19:33
really that's everybody. Like, we're all sort of, you know, somewhat called
19:37
to these 5 fold gifts. It's just we are
19:41
more dominant in some than others. And so I think a lot of
19:44
people are afraid of the prophetic, but it's just such an area
19:48
that I've loved growing in, even though it's not my
19:51
top, but an area that we could all, continue to
19:55
grow in. And maybe more natural than we often think that
19:59
it's not like some woo woo type of thing in the
20:02
sky, some magical moment, but it's just like my sheep
20:06
hear my voice. And what is God saying through our
20:10
society, through our Church, through through my personal experience,
20:13
and just paying attention to that. And and, humbly, being able
20:17
to bring it into context of community that they're not isolated
20:21
yaysayers of what has to happen. They're they're not the dominant
20:25
voice in there, but they're they're the listening part and saying, what is
20:29
God saying? And being able to create safety within
20:32
a in a Church or a network to be able to speak those
20:36
things out and discern, what is of God and what is,
20:41
what are things that we need to be thinking about. Mhmm. And
20:44
probably too because it has been, you know, somewhat
20:48
abused. People are afraid of it. And so and that's
20:51
unfortunate, but it's like, what is healthy prophetic? That's
20:55
right. Well, evangelism, we took a little different twist than I think a lot of
20:59
people might be expecting because they're thinking more of, like, the Billy Graham or
21:02
the the tracks or telling people about Jesus. We really went on
21:06
a different tangent with Ellen. Actually, you know Ellen, don't you? I do.
21:10
I love Ellen. Who doesn't know Ellen? Because Ellen is just very networked
21:14
across Canada, and, she's an awesome person. But what I
21:17
loved about what she was talking about in her personal
21:21
story is just articulating your own story. And
21:25
and she does this very well through her own marketing and
21:28
communications business, Graf Martin Communication. But
21:32
it's really about articulating our own story and identifying what God
21:35
has done through us. She says it like this, learning how to
21:39
articulate your own story and identifying what God has done through us, I
21:43
think, is a massive first step in being able to share the gospel.
21:47
It's more of what has God done within me, and can we articulate
21:51
that? And sometimes my my story is probably a lot more
21:54
boring than yours, Daria. Yours yours has a little bit more sweet and spicy and
21:58
salt in there from your background, what you've already described.
22:02
Mine is. It's it's Mennonite. It's it's pretty guarded. It's I've
22:06
had a beautiful childhood. It's not perfect by no means. But
22:09
still, what has God done in my life, and can that be brought
22:13
into the the glory of God? I think it's a it's a
22:17
challenge for each one of us, Maybe particularly those who haven't
22:21
had a diverse background, but evangelism is
22:24
really being able to still see and pursue God's work in our life
22:28
that we don't just arrive because we have a belief set and now we can
22:32
tell others how to get to heaven. But it's more of, like, what is God
22:36
challenging me now? How is my prayer life enhanced, or how did I
22:40
work through that grief process or disappointment Mhmm.
22:43
And things like that and be able to connect with others? Any thoughts
22:47
that you have on evangelism? Well, yeah. No.
22:51
I I mean, I met Ellen about a year ago, and I remember asking her
22:54
at at an event something. I just wanted to ask her some quick, like, communication
22:57
question. And then Mhmm. We ended up having, like, a 2 hour
23:01
conversation. That sounds like Ellen. Total freebie
23:05
that she sort of helped me through, like, how well, how do you communicate your
23:08
story, and how do you and so and she really helped me see that
23:12
I mean, she's just a gift to Canada in this world, but, you know,
23:16
that communicating your story is not a a bad thing.
23:20
Like, sometimes you're afraid to share your story, and you're afraid to,
23:23
like, be vulnerable, or you're afraid to be who you
23:27
are, be who God made you to be. And, you know, like, who do you
23:30
wanna reach with your story, and how do you you know, and and how can
23:33
you do that well and effectively? And but the whole, like,
23:36
relationships, you know, like, that's that's evangelism. Right?
23:40
Especially in a country like we live in. Like,
23:44
the best I think the best evangelism happens just through
23:47
real relationship. Yeah. So I love that she
23:51
brought that perspective. And it's not just about the
23:55
big event, but how we're actually just living and telling our
23:58
story of who God is in our life. Well and I think somebody that's
24:02
gifted and healthy in evangelism, it's
24:06
more natural in the sense they're they want to tell. They have
24:09
something to share. It's like they have this best kept secret, and I'm like,
24:13
oh my goodness. I can't believe you've gotta hear hear this story, or
24:17
or there's there's something that within your story that resonates with
24:21
something God has done in my life. It's not a drudgery I should
24:25
tell them about the lord, thus saith the Lord. It it's
24:29
more of a attractional magnetic thing, and I love how
24:33
people like Ellen with the gift of evangelism is able to draw
24:37
that out of others who may not otherwise see themselves as an evangelist.
24:41
But we all have the the mandate to share the
24:45
good news, but they are able to draw that out and make it more accessible
24:49
to the rest of us so that we can truly be living examples,
24:53
authentic in community, again, like you said, being relational.
24:57
Well, I love the conversation I had with my friend,
25:01
Vincent Solomon, on shepherding. He is a pastor here
25:05
in Winnipeg, a Cree pastor, and we talked about what that
25:09
was like within the Anglican Church and his experience as
25:12
a role of a shepherd. Any thoughts? You deal with a lot of
25:16
pastors, but as you were listening to to his, was there any
25:20
thoughts that jumped out at you in that conversation?
25:24
Mhmm. Well, one thought was that I just love that he knew
25:28
he was called to be a pastor when he was 10 years old. Yeah. Yeah.
25:31
And it's like it's like he he knew. And I do think that
25:35
my husband's also he's a teacher by vocation. He's a a
25:39
high school math teacher, but he's a pastor. He's a
25:42
pastor at heart, and he's known that, I think, his whole life that
25:46
he has that that gifting. And so Well, and he and he knew
25:50
that as a young child. And then what I loved also, what followed is
25:54
that it was confirmed within the
25:57
Church, within the elders that he sought advice with.
26:01
They nurtured that, and they saw it in him even when
26:05
he didn't always see it in himself. And and I know we
26:08
didn't get into the whole story on the episode, but the
26:12
struggle with the Church and then the way indigenous were treated and his
26:16
own Cree experience, hasn't been easy. And I remember
26:19
asking, how how did you pursue pastoring
26:23
after you've been so wounded or or and your people and generations have been
26:27
so wounded? And and I remember profoundly him telling
26:30
me, well, if I'm not gonna shepherd in those spaces, how can
26:34
we expect different change and nurturing to happen? And
26:38
sort of that idea of being that nurturing change that he wanted to
26:42
see within the Church rather than saying, I'm done with the
26:45
Church. He loves the Church, and I I think I that's a a real
26:49
true shepherd heart that, they're going to
26:53
endure those things for the sake of the
26:56
people that he is able to care and give them a different experience with
27:00
a lot of the indigeneity woven in,
27:04
not as syncretism, but saying how do we be truly authentic
27:07
ourselves, and how do I nurture your authentic
27:11
selves in following Jesus. And and I
27:15
couldn't have, looked for a better example of a friend that,
27:19
does it every day, with this congregation. So that
27:23
was a that was a true true gift. Teaching
27:26
with Amy Jo Smith. Oh my goodness. I enjoyed having that
27:30
conversation with her, a natural born teacher.
27:34
And some of the things that she drew out, I think there was so much
27:37
there for the local Church, for Church networks in
27:41
how we nurture the body of Christ and even city
27:45
networks. Was there anything there that stood out to you that you wanted
27:48
to comment on? Yeah. Some of the most
27:52
impactful people in my life have been my teachers, and I think
27:56
she alludes to that as well. And she talks about Joni and Wendi,
27:59
her experience working there. And she says the embodied
28:03
experiences of working with people and getting on the floor and being with
28:07
them, you know, and teachers are just incredible
28:10
humans, you know, and have such potential to impact,
28:15
especially the ones who are doing it really well and actually incarnating
28:18
and embodying. Like she talks about Joni and friends and getting down on the
28:22
floor. And she also finishes with this
28:26
reflecting on who loved you into being and what are some of the
28:29
things that you wanna share with others, you know, and
28:33
I just love that. Who loved you into being? That is
28:37
a a profound question that stood out to me as well. Yeah.
28:41
And and I I loved the humility that she had in that
28:44
perspective of that colearning with her students.
28:48
Yeah. She might be the teacher in the room, but she's colearning, and
28:52
and she's able to adapt even how she takes them on
28:56
this learning journey based on some of the feedback and and
28:59
the humility it takes to not just be the person in charge,
29:03
but she even said, I always say my greatest teachers
29:07
and my professors have been the children that I've gotten to
29:11
walk alongside and journey with. And I think that is a
29:14
profound thing that imagine that in a Church setting as we're
29:18
teaching, that we're colearning together. Yes. There
29:22
might be some biblical truths and some some things that
29:26
the Church will want to teach, but being
29:30
adaptive to the environment and to who is there, not
29:34
overloading that information, but learning
29:38
from some of the greatest teachers in my life. I I reflected when
29:42
she said that some of the greatest teachers and professors in my life have been
29:45
the children that have joined our family and and some of
29:49
the social workers that have allowed me to walk
29:52
alongside their difficult journey and some of the families that we get to
29:56
participate with in community through the care portal and some of the youth
30:00
that are aging out. I think, you know what? There's such teaching
30:03
moments that we don't have to come there knowing all the
30:07
answers, but we can actually co learn and we can we can
30:10
help, but we can also receive. I I I think that was a a very
30:14
profound way of looking at teaching. There was one thing that
30:17
stood out, interviewing all of the guests that we had
30:21
in the last, episodes through this series, one
30:25
of the things that I saw as a commonality even though these
30:29
giftings are very different and unique was this element
30:32
of listening, that the apostolic was
30:36
listening to their community, was listening to God,
30:40
and thinking of new ways because they were inspired by God. The the
30:44
prophetic was listening to God and saying what it what
30:48
they heard. The evangelist was listening to what
30:51
God was doing in their life, and and she even talks
30:55
about listening more than actually just speaking out the words and and
30:59
understanding communication is understanding your audience by
31:02
listening, she she highlighted. The shepherding was really
31:06
listening to the sheep and and how how they can he can respond
31:10
to them. Teaching was about listening to your students, and all
31:13
of them are so much on listening and less on the authority.
31:18
None of them came very authoritative saying, I have this gift and so,
31:22
therefore, Church, listen up. Society, listen
31:25
up. Just this attitude of
31:29
listening. And so in all of these contexts, in all
31:33
of these giftings that God has gifted the Church
31:36
with, we can still sum it up with my sheep
31:40
hear my voice. Right? There's this aspect of
31:44
being good listeners, I thought was kind of profound in all of
31:47
them. Oh, yeah. So key. And I mean, just so
31:51
key to be a a great leader in this world today. It
31:55
starts with listening. Mhmm. Which is it's just a
31:58
great way to not feel all the pressure to have all the
32:02
right answers and to nail it, with everything
32:06
we are called to do. It's listening and
32:10
responding, and I think that's that's a huge gift.
32:13
So, Daria, as we wrap up this episode and the series,
32:17
I guess the question I have for you and the work that you're doing is
32:21
how do city networks and local Churches, how do
32:24
they benefit from embracing the diversity of these giftings?
32:29
What is some of your insights that you're seeing? Yeah. Something
32:32
I've been seeing, and that actually has been really heavy on my heart lately, is
32:36
a bit of this leadership crisis that we have across our country.
32:40
Maybe around the world. I don't know. But I definitely see it in Canada and
32:43
in Quebec. I really see it. And, I was reminded yesterday. I
32:47
had a meeting with, Chuck Proudfoot from AtWork On Purpose, and he
32:50
reminded me that 1% of Christians do this work, like,
32:54
do Christian ministry, and 99% of
32:57
Christians are not, you know, leaders in the Church, so to
33:01
speak. But every Christian has one of these
33:05
gifts. You know, everyone, you know, we we all have them. And so
33:09
even as we experience this leadership crisis, how do we mobilize
33:13
the whole Church, the whole all all a 100%,
33:17
into their gifting and into their their calling, to live
33:21
out who God created them to be in the body of Christ.
33:25
Yeah. No. That that is profound. Are you seeing certain, giftings
33:29
more prominent and more accessible within Churches and Church
33:33
networks than others and and some that are needing more
33:37
giftings to balance the ecosystems?
33:41
Not necessarily. I don't see any any need more than another, but I
33:45
think as people learn their gift and and are
33:48
empowered in it, then I think that they will they will wanna use
33:52
it and wanna feel like they're part of a community of people that are
33:56
using their gifts. And it's not just one leader that leads and does
34:00
everything, does all 5 of those things. But if we're all
34:03
using what God has given us to lead together,
34:07
then I think that really helps solve a bit for our
34:11
leadership crisis. Yeah. And you say leadership crisis, and I
34:15
think we could look at these giftings and those needing to flourish.
34:18
And I think also some of the things that have united us in some of
34:22
our conversations and experiences has also been the
34:25
need for diversity around the table both in multiculturalism,
34:30
but also having male and female women leaders as well. There's
34:34
a a needed voice there at the table. Is there anything that
34:37
else that you would say is needed for the
34:41
flourishing of the Canadian Church, so to speak? Yeah. I
34:45
mean, I would love to see more female leaders around
34:48
the table and women being, you know, encouraged and
34:52
raised up to feel like they can have a voice and they can lead.
34:56
I mean, they feel like that in in the rest of the world. I think
35:00
it's just the Church world that is still a bit of a struggle for women.
35:03
So for women to have a voice and not at the
35:07
expense of men and not to lessen the role of
35:11
men. That's true. You know? I really deeply appreciate men and
35:14
their leadership, but, you know, how can we work better together
35:18
and and really work work at this together, male and
35:22
female, as a holistic picture of the
35:26
Church. Yeah. And I think it it requires a certain level of listening
35:29
again to say maybe that tension isn't even felt around those tables
35:33
or city network tables or those Church leadership tables because
35:37
maybe it's the prominent voice. So if it's just males around the table,
35:41
they won't necessarily realize that there there is a a deficit there,
35:44
and so listening again to the broader Church
35:49
will add value. God says he equips the
35:52
Church to edify, to equip, and to build up, and so
35:56
this is, again, not an authoritative struggle. It's more
36:00
on building up and edifying the Church so that we can work better together.
36:04
And I would also say the same could be said. We've talked
36:07
about women and and men in ministry. We
36:10
briefly touched on on the the cultural diversity, which I
36:14
think is very important, and and, Vincent and
36:18
I talked a little bit about that, but also denominationalism.
36:22
What are you seeing within the networks about the unity of the
36:25
Church? Are denominations coming together that are
36:29
very diverse, or or do we have some more leadership work to do in that
36:33
as well? Oh, well, that's a loaded question, Wendy.
36:37
That's why I asked it. Yeah. There are definitely denominations
36:41
very willing to work together, and there's definitely others
36:45
not willing to work together. And so it's, it's it's
36:48
tough. And I also understand in the city space and the city
36:52
network space, there's denominations that are
36:55
willing to feed the homeless together or do
36:59
something more practical. But there's others, you know,
37:03
that wouldn't be willing to pray with a a someone of a
37:06
different denomination or plant a Church, do Church planting
37:10
networks. You know, they're pretty specific about the people they they would network
37:14
to plant Churches with. And so I get that sometimes, but
37:18
there's, yeah, there's definitely some hard divides these days,
37:22
and and it's tough to navigate. And, honestly, I
37:25
see some of the city network leaders out there who are just
37:28
exhausted because they're navigating it, and it's
37:32
hard. And they just wanna stay in relationship and
37:36
keep peace and love love their community,
37:40
but it's it's tough. Yeah. And I I think that's true. It
37:43
is tough. And but when we're saying the unity of the Church, we're not
37:47
saying uniformity, but sometimes there's a lot of polarizing
37:51
topics and secondary theologies that can divide. Just
37:55
like any of these APES, they could say, oh, well, this is the way, but
37:59
there there's a need for a lot of spiritual humility to
38:02
be able to sit amongst our differences and listen to the other.
38:06
Because when we listen to each other and we are focused
38:10
on Christ, who is the unifier, not the
38:13
uniformity, the conformist, that's
38:17
when the beauty of the Church can be seen in the community. That's
38:21
when communities can flourish because there is
38:24
an an outpouring of the holy spirit out of that
38:28
unity that they can the world can see that the the the
38:31
Church is 1. Any last concluding thought before
38:35
we conclude this episode? You know, I think my prayer for the
38:39
last couple months, and it's just there's a song that
38:42
call it's called make room. And I think what my prayer has been
38:46
has just I have the sticky note on my wall here. I will make room
38:50
for you to do whatever you want to. And I think that's
38:54
sort of my my prayer for Canada too, but, like, God, what do we need
38:57
to make room for you to do maybe different? And
39:01
there's a there's actually a line in the song that says, shake up the
39:05
ground of all my tradition. Break down the walls of all my
39:08
religion. Your way is better. Oh, your way is
39:12
better. And so, like, that I think that's just been my
39:15
prayer lately for Canada. But, God, what what are you doing that's new?
39:19
Because something new needs to happen. And, you know,
39:22
almost over 80% of Canada is urban is people live
39:26
in cities. And so if we are to get
39:30
serious about our cities in Canada, what is that gonna look
39:34
like? And, God, do something new and better.
39:38
Yeah. Because your way is better. Yeah. And how how do we do that? How
39:41
do I make room for God to do bigger and better
39:45
things in my heart, in my city, in my country.
39:49
Wow. That that is a great way to end this series actually
39:53
to make room. And sometimes God speaks by making
39:57
room for the for other people around your table that might be different than
40:01
you, very different, purposely different than you,
40:04
making room for God can and leaving space for society
40:08
to speak to us. There's making room in so many
40:12
ways that God wants to allow our cities
40:16
to flourish. So thank you so much, Daria, for coming on to the podcast,
40:20
and I'm looking forward to future conversations and and working closely with
40:23
you. Mhmm. Well, thanks, Wendy. I've I really appreciated this,
40:27
whole series, so keep on. Thank you for
40:31
joining another conversation on Journey with Care, where we
40:34
inspire curious Canadians on their path of faith and living
40:38
life with purpose in community. Journey with Care is an initiative of
40:42
CareImpact, a Canadian charity dedicated to connecting and
40:45
equipping the whole Church to journey well in community. You can
40:49
visit their website at CareImpact or visit
40:52
journeywithcare.ca to get more information on weekly episodes,
40:55
Journey with Prayer, and details about our upcoming events and meetups.
41:00
You can also leave us a message, share your thoughts, and connect with like
41:04
minded individuals who are on their own journeys of faith and purpose.
41:08
Thank you for sharing this podcast and helping these stories reach the
41:11
community. Together, we can explore ways to journey in a good way,
41:15
And always remember to stay curious.