Latest / Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community / Differently Wired in Community | Neurodiversity and the Church With Dr. Kelly Friesen

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Differently Wired in Community | Neurodiversity and the Church With Dr. Kelly Friesen · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

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What does loving your neighbor actually look like? This
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is Journey with Care, where curious Canadians get inspired to
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love others well through real life stories and honest
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conversations.
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Welcome back to another episode of Journey with Care.
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I'm here with my co host, Wendy. Hey there.
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We're in the midst of a series, differently wired together for community, and we
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have a special guest on with us who who we will introduce shortly. But
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before I do that, I wanna remind you that we have our other podcast
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called Journey with Prayer, which is actually a podcast corresponding
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to each episode of this podcast journey with Kelly. You can find it on
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your favorite podcast player. Go to our website if you wanna get it a few
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days early, but it's basically a prayer journey that takes you through what
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we talked about here to go from the head to the heart. So, Wendy,
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you wanna recap where we're at in our series and maybe give a short
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introduction for our guest? Yeah. Absolutely. We've been, going
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through a series differently wired together in community, and
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I'm excited to continue that series today. In differently
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wired, we're referring to all kinds of neurodiversities and
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mental health concerns and different
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exceptionalities that are all around us in our
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communities, in our churches, and how do we care, how do we
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walk together better together. And with us today, we have
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doctor Kelly Friesen, joining us in the studio. Welcome to the
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podcast. Thank you. Good to be here. It is so good to be here
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with you, and we go back a little ways, back to our time
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in Altona. But for everybody else, can you tell us a little bit
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about yourself and what brings you into this series?
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Yeah. You know, I think it's always a bit difficult to talk about
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yourself. I'd much rather preach and teach than do that, but I'll do my best
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here. So I currently live in
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the Manitoba prairies with my husband and my daughter. And for
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those cat lovers out there, our Maine Coon, elderly Maine Coon
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cat. I'm an ordained minister, certified coach.
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I have a master of theology and a doctor of ministry
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where I concentrated on neurodiversity in the church.
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And, my background is church leadership, pastoring, ministry
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training, and, I've served 1,000
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of individuals both neurotypical and neurodivergent one to
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1 through inner healing, delivering spiritual guidance, coaching,
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and consulting over the years. And currently, my focus
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is to help people fulfill their purpose through my
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aligned with purpose program and also consulting, and
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I'm expanding my doctoral work on neurodiversity
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and the church's response, hoping to advance healthier
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approaches, equality, equity, dignity for
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all neurotypes in the church. So you've been studying a lot about
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neuroscience. You become a neuroscience coaching consultant. Can you share a
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bit of your journey towards that and how you became a
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neuroscience coaching consultant? Yeah. I've been coaching and
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consulting in various capacities over the years. And like
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many, I'm a lifelong learner, so I enjoy learning new skills,
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you know, that can help my clients. Neurodiverse is an interesting
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field as we all know, and it continues to confirm the word
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of God. And, you know, Wendi we can utilize the findings of
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neuroscience and look at it through the word,
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it can be Kelly powerful tool for us, both personally and
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professionally. And so that's why I got into, study deeper into the
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areas of neuroscience. And as part of the coaching that
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I now offer my clients as well as some of the programs that I
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have. So when we're talking about neuroscience, can you define that,
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unpack that a little bit for me? What does neuroscience mean? You
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know, my training in neuroscience is is specifically in the areas of
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coaching and leadership. And so it's to really help
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them help people on a at a very natural
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kind of way. So helping you to understand you
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know, why you might do things the way you do and why your brain is
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is kinda feeling stuck and how to get past some of those things. So that's
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the the aspect of neuroscience that I've studied, as
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opposed to, you know, those who are, like, you know, a brain surgeon would study
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different aspects of it. Right. No. I love that. And I love that you
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are dovetailing that with your background in in pastoral
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ministry and theology, and and you've referenced it before
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how sort of like science catches up with God. Like, you're understanding
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how God created the brain and how we are wired
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to think, and you're able to to journey with others. Is that correct?
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Yeah. You know, I I think that neuroscience has we
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obviously, as Christians, we do have to be choosing maybe is the
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right word in the direction that we go with it to
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ensure that we are looking at it through through the eyes of the
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word of God. And anytime you know, there is
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whether it's neuroscience or anything out there, there's going to be parallels with the Word
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of God. It all it all started with the word. It all started
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with creation of how God created things. And, you know, we we kinda
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go from there. And so there's always gonna be truths in it, and we can
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grab a hold of those things. And so often the neuroscience studies have
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just been proving what the word of God already tells us, but gives
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us tools and another aspect of how we can dig in
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deeper. So you've been coaching many, many people, and I
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imagine that you've encountered so many different kinds
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of people in that. So over the the past 20
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years in church leadership, has that influenced your work in working with
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neurotypical and neurodivergent individuals? Has that informed how you are bringing that
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into your coaching practice? Yeah. I think so. It is an innate, I think, innate
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part of me to look at each person individually. I think, innate part of me
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to look at each person individually, not assume that one person
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is like the next person regardless of whether they're near typical or neurodivergent.
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And so I think that's a really important view to have,
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because the minority of society
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would be neurodivergent, probably about Wendi. That
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percentage changes all the time. But, you know, obviously, the
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amount of neurodivergent people as opposed to neurotypical people that
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I've met 1 on 1 will be less. However, there are
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a lot and I have a lot of really it's been such an
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honor to meet, like, all neurotypes through 1 to
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1, you know, in what whatever capacity that it's been.
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And I've been able to see the pain that's been caused. A lot of people
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that that have come to me over the years, you know, they're not necessarily all
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from people that I would have pastored, but coming from different denominations,
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different places. So they come with all kinds of different pains, different
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hurts. And, yeah, the neurodivergent people that have come to me,
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there has been a lot of trauma and pain a lot of times how they've
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been treated in society And that has followed into
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the church. And my doctoral studies, I I
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specifically dove into how society has
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influenced or treated neurodivergent people has that
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followed into the church and through the studies, It was
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phenomenal how many neurodivergent people were willing
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to share their stories with me, just in my research alone for
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my doctorates. They were so thankful that somebody
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was digging into this because it's is really, really needed. And
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there isn't a lot of information out there for the church
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specifically on this topic. So that
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is partly why I've gotten into it. One of the major
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reasons that I specifically have been zoning in
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on the topic of neurodiversity in the church is just
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because, honestly, God got a hold of me on it,
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spoke really clearly and deeply to me. That's a bit of a longer
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story about 5 years ago. And so I felt
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really prompted to go down this direction, do my doctorate in this area
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and and my studies and expand this research and create,
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you know, certificate training programs to help the church
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body. When I say it like that, I mean, the church as in
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the church, church leaders, those kinds of things, the the body of the
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church, but also Christians as a whole of how we
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can be equipped to join together in
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inequality in this. Yeah. No. I appreciate that. And and
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coming from a family, I have neurodiversity in my own home
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and, it's all around me. I'm surprised that it would be
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20% because I see, like, 5050 Apple and Android often
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because it's just so apparent to me. And a lot of the times undiagnosed
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or or misunderstood. But that's helpful to hear
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your perspective. And I wonder though if the church is catching up with
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society in some of their awareness of neurodiversity that has a
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place in their theology, in how they treat each other in the church
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because it isn't often spoken of in the church in
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a acceptable way. So you've talked about equality
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and equity, dignity for all neurotypes within the church. What are
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some of the key findings that you found there in in that research?
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I think there's multiple aspects to this, not not only, you know, the
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practical and the spiritual aspects of it, but but I think it begins
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with our heart posture and
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the church's willingness to listen, the church's willingness
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to and when I say the church, I I'm
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not I'm not coming against the church. I love the church. We do too,
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but we we gotta have the honest straight talk here. So
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And gotta say the tough things sometimes. Yeah. Because we love her. Yeah. And I
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think I think because of my background, maybe it's one of the
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reasons why God's asked me to do this is is because I do, you know,
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I come from a perspective of of pastoring. I come from
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a perspective of of training, of of 1 on 1
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ministry, of coaching, consulting in all these areas for so
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many years. And so I've been able to hear these stories.
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And and so I think that willingness to stop and listen to the
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stories is is the beginning. The willingness to have the
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conversations, the willingness to heal ourselves with our
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own biases, the our willingness to do those checks
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on those internal beliefs and biases that that
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not only you know, I I think I think we don't always
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realize well, I know we don't always realize
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those inner beliefs that not only stop us from living out our own
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purpose, but they also, you know, we project those things
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to to groups of people or individuals
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without even realizing it sometimes. And so that takes time
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and grace on ourselves on each other to walk through those,
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to evaluate those things, and and to know that we're gonna make
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mistakes in the languages we choose and and as we're
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learning, as we're growing in this. Well, I think that's so
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important what you're saying here. We do have blind spots and not to hit
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ourselves over the head and say, oh, no. I have to be perfect. I don't
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wanna mess up in interacting with other people that are different from
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myself, but just humbly realizing that you and
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I and everybody around us, we all have blind spots. And in
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community, as we walk in community and and build a level of
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trust, we can we can go there into those places and
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learn and be curious and accept other people
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to teach to us what it is that we need to know, instead of
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needing to feel like we have to have it all together. And I feel
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that that would give the church a little bit of a an exhale
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if we didn't have to have the right polished theological answer for
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every neurodiversity out there, but just say, you know what? We
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want to learn. We wanna sit with. We wanna be with. And
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you were doing that in your studies. You were saying you were reaching out
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to to different people with neurodiversities and their willingness to talk. It's
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not in the right approach and humility. There is an
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eagerness to to share stories. I'm just curious on
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that note, when you were talking to a variety of different
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people, were there common threads that you heard in your
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research from these people that were sharing their story? Were there certain things
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and elements that they had in common through your your
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discussions? Absolutely. In a in a matter
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about 2 weeks, I received 78
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questionnaires back, and the representation
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was honestly phenomenal. It was representing 10 countries,
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20 denominations, ages 10 to
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over 65. There were at least
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25 varying neurodivergent traits within
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the people that got back to me so so that it was just
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incredible. And while there were
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some people who had good experiences in the church, the
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majority of them did not.
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And that boiled down to
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multiple different aspects. I'd asked a lot of questions and
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to understand different areas. So for example, what
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is their experience in the sensory area or their
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experience relationally or their experience with faith.
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So just all kinds of things when there was honestly a lot of trauma and
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a lot of the stories that they told me were, you know, they brought me
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to tears. It's a whole group of people that are really just
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calling out to be heard, to be loved, to be
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understood, to be accepted, and we need to do our part.
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So some of the the common thing is that that they told me,
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on unfortunately, and many of them have were abused within the
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church, in multiple ways. And
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and that, unfortunately, was Kelly common thread.
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And the fact that they would share that with me, most of these people I
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didn't know, was phenomenal. They wanna
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see change. And some of them were sharing because
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of anger. Others were sharing because they,
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they want to be in the church. I think the fact that so
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many neurodivergent people are
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very trusting in they believe the best in people. And so I think
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sometimes they found that they were taken advantage of or their gifts
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were exploited or the different things like that. But there was
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also a huge range of people, neurodivergent
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people who were professionals, some of them employed in the church. So many of them
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who had been volunteering in the church, you know, and and they come from
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all walks of life, all walks of life from
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doctors and nurses, educators, artists,
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professional students, which is
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amazing to me that they were saying, yes, let's do this. Let's make
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change. Right? But a lot of things that they talked about
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were sensory was really tough for them, like walking into the church
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and there would be a lot of smells in the church or there'd be a
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lot of, you know, the the media department, for
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example, you know, there's a lot of crackling going on and that was really tough
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for them, or the lights are flickering or, you know, all kinds of
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things. These things, everybody appreciates when
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they are, you know, perfected to some degree.
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But many neurodivergent people Wendi when those things
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are difficult, they can't actually participate. Right.
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Like, it actually stops them from hearing the sermon or
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engaging. It's exhausting for them. Well, it would be no different than
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passing out peanut butter at communion for a lot of anaphylactics.
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Like, it's just not compatible, and I think for for myself
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as a neurotypical, I understand it to the level that I walk with
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people in it, but I I think a lot of in the neurotypical
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kinda standard society, they think, well, you know, you just gotta toughen up and
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get through it and stuff, but it is. These are real deterrents.
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It's like taking somebody's glasses and saying, like, see,
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but you can't. Like, you just can't.
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I'm happy to hear that you are uncovering these
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stories and giving a safe place, and yet, also, obviously, we're
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all saddened to hear some of the the reflections that have come back,
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some honest reflections of their experience within the church. And, of course, we
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love the church, and we wanna see her thrive, and we want it to be
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an inclusive place. But I think there's a huge blind spot there Wendi
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we're talking about abuse, and it could be a variety of things.
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Each person has their own experience. But give me some examples
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of what does that look like, and is the church doing
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it in intentionality or out of a blind
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spot that these oppressive power plays are
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happening in the the abuse dynamics? You know,
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going back to the research, actually, I also offered
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questionnaires to church leaders Okay. Pastors and church leaders.
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I wanted their feedback. I felt it was important to hear their
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perspective. And in that 2 week span, I received about
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10 back. Given more time, I probably would have gotten more,
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but it was right across the board as far as some
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not knowing what the terms were. This was new
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terminology altogether. I began
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the questionnaires with the terms that I'd be using through it so that they'd really
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understand that. But some did not know what they were at all.
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Others were not aware of who in their community might
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be neurodivergent. And then there were others who specifically,
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I remember one that they run a home church, and they felt like they had
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an advantage because they were able to really be involved with the
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families, get to know them, their lives, those kinds of
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things. I think one of the things that we need to understand is that
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neurodiversity is making the atmosphere
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good for all neurotypes. That doesn't always mean that we're going
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to know who in the community is
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neurodivergent. We shouldn't have to ask them. They
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can offer if they want to, because it is a private thing. It's up
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to every individual to share what they want to share and what they don't wanna
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share. So when we can come into the church and we can create an
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atmosphere that is conducive to all
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neurotypes, now we're not singling anybody out. Right? So,
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for example, we can create a quiet room and we can have
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a speaker in there to hear the message that's not crackly and
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not too loud. And we can have a note on the door and we can
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say, this is a quiet room. No talking, please.
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You know? And this room should be separate from the nursery.
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It shouldn't be the same, and anyone can use it. All
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neurotypes, anyone who feels they they want to use it. We can have
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earplugs in the sanctuary that anybody can use because
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even neurotypical may find the music too loud. Give them earplugs,
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have them Friesen, just take them if you need them. You know, nobody
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is, you know, singled out that way. So it's all
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inclusive. And we can make improvements on
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sound levels, we can make improvements on lights. And and this isn't
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always going to be easy in the way of, you know, you
19:30
have big church, you spent lots of money into it or you have a small
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church, you know, you don't have the teams or you don't have the finances to
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do those things. But everything that we do, every step forward we
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make is a good step forward. So these things don't cost
19:45
anything. I mean, earplugs do, but not in the long run, not very
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much, but just have them available. There's so many things that we we
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can do that that at first will not cost a lot.
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And most most churches will have at least one room that they
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can have a quiet room in. Right? And if they don't,
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they can get there. There's there's ways we can we can get there.
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It's important even spiritually to understand what language
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we're using. A lot of neurodivergent people don't want a cure.
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They don't want to be fixed. And when over the pulpit, it's
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called out that this and this neurodivergent trait,
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it should be healed, that person feels like,
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okay, I'm not welcome here. And you don't, you know, you're not
20:30
valuing who I am, because they value who they are.
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Yeah. Not all of them, but I'm just I'm just saying some people do. So
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the language we use is really, really, really CarePortal.
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Being understanding that a lot of neurodivergent people in these questionnaires
20:44
actually, they didn't like a lot of the touch things that go on in
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church. So, you know, some of the, like, turn around and hug your neighbor.
20:52
Right? That'll throw a lot of people off for the entire rest
20:56
of the morning. When we wanna pray for someone, it doesn't matter
21:00
the neurotype. We need to be respectful. Mhmm.
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Can I put my hand on your shoulder while I pray for you? Mhmm. Doesn't
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matter which neurotype it is, but that is just respecting
21:11
somebody's personal space. And that should be a general thing that
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we, as a community, just want to embrace Mhmm.
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Regardless of who's there. You know? So so some of these things I
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think we can naturally adopt and adjust Kelly it will
21:25
trickle into the whole community as respect and be more
21:29
welcoming for everybody. Right. Obviously, I go
21:33
deeper into a lot of these things in my training program, you know,
21:37
and dive into those things. But but I think that, there's
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just simple things we can choose to do. And what I'm hearing from you
21:44
is being in a posture of listening. Right? Like, there's not a do this, this,
21:48
and this. This is the recipe for an inclusive congregation.
21:52
It's paying attention to the people around you and
21:56
being responsive to that, probably creating that Kelly safety so that they
22:00
can respond to what they actually need. I I feel sometimes we're
22:03
not creating the safety to even voice those things because they they're trying hard
22:07
to mask and to fit in in order to be
22:11
present. I'm I'm wondering. I I'm just hearing,
22:14
like, fictitiously here, but aunt Agnes in the background
22:18
and and grandpa Bill in the in the the front pew
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and maybe a rigid Reynolds in in the middle
22:25
pew saying, but back in my day or why can't we just,
22:29
like, pull it up by the bootstraps and just get over it? We used to
22:32
never have to do all these things. We we didn't have to have these. We
22:35
just, like, push through it, like, just love Jesus and and get through it.
22:39
How would you respond to that? You're laughing, because
22:43
these things happen, But why are we so,
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maybe some would say, hypersensitive to all these sensitivities?
22:50
Are we being too sensitive? Or is there something more here?
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Yeah. You know, there's a multiple things to this. I
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think that, you know, way back when, even when I was growing
23:02
out, things were not discussed, things were not talked about. It
23:06
didn't matter. It doesn't if anything didn't seem like
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the norm or the typical, you know, don't talk about
23:13
it. So a lot of people who fell into
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the category or having neurodivergent traits of any kind,
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a lot of people who could mask would mask, meaning they would
23:25
hide who they really are. They would hide the things. They would
23:28
learn how to, to some degree, do
23:32
life how everyone else was doing it. But it
23:36
was to a point and is to a point still
23:39
of of complete and utter exhaustion and shutdown for that
23:43
person. A lot of these things, obviously,
23:47
we no matter what your neurotype is, we
23:51
we do choose to, you know, want to interact and meet the
23:54
person where they're at and those kinds of things, but it's a whole different level
23:59
for neurodivergent person who doesn't feel like they can be
24:02
who they are, communicate how they communicate,
24:06
have differences Johan than what is the norm out
24:10
there. And I use that norm and quote quote, people can't see my
24:13
fingers, but it's really the typical. We wanna remove that
24:17
language. It's all normal. It's all okay.
24:21
But there is a typical Mhmm. There is a majority of society
24:25
that does things a certain way. And the other part of
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society does may do things a different way and I say that very
24:32
generally because every person is unique, right, every person, we can
24:36
never assume that a neurotypical person is the same as a neurotypical
24:40
person or a neurodivergent person is the same as the neurodivergent person beside
24:44
them. Like, they're just everybody's unique and so we have to
24:48
meet people where they're at and never never come to somebody
24:51
thinking that they need healing for
24:55
their neurodivergent trait. That's completely off on a
24:58
different tangent than what you just asked me. How do I respond
25:02
to that? You know, I think that we are living in a time and a
25:06
in society where we have the ability
25:09
now to fight for justice where there's been injustice.
25:13
We're living in a time where I believe God wants change. One of
25:17
the things that he placed within my heart that I briefly mentioned before,
25:21
about 5 years ago, he grabbed ahold of me. I was at a
25:25
an, fundraiser event, and there were, I would
25:29
say, more than half of the people there were neurodivergent.
25:33
And, I was actually quite uncomfortable with what I was seeing,
25:37
but but we were invited, so we went. And,
25:41
all of a sudden, god was like, do you see? And
25:45
he says he these things to me before, you know, wanting to
25:49
highlight something or show me something. So, I mean, that in itself wasn't unusual.
25:53
But he kept saying, do you see? Do you see? And I
25:57
kept looking and I'm like, god, if you're asking me if I see and you
26:01
keep asking me if I see, obviously, I'm not seeing what you want me to
26:04
see. So what do you want me to see? Like, I see, but obviously, I'm
26:07
not seeing. I believe, but help me in my unbelief. Right?
26:12
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And
26:15
he starts highlighting people. He starts highlighting
26:19
traumas. He starts highlighting societal injustice. He starts
26:23
highlighting the hardships that people have gone through.
26:26
And he started highlighting those that that had been so squashed down in who
26:30
they are that they didn't even know who they were anymore. And he
26:34
says, do you see an injustice has been
26:37
done to my people? Do you see an injustice
26:42
has been done to my people? And so that would be my answer
26:45
Wow. To the people who say, why is this important? Because God is
26:49
saying, do you see an injustice has been done to my
26:53
people? And so if this is on
26:56
God's heart and this is what he's seeing, it needs to be on our
27:00
heart and needs to be what we're seeing. It needs to be what's
27:04
important to us. So that that would be my answer.
27:08
As you were sharing that story, and thank you so much, Kelly, for
27:11
sharing that, I was reflecting on perhaps what
27:15
we're in our current day today, we're talking more
27:19
about neurodiversities that hasn't been spoken of in generations
27:22
past. But I'm thinking it's not so much a new fad of
27:26
today. Maybe we have language different. Language evolves and
27:30
science evolves, and we we understand things more with
27:33
research. But maybe it's not something new on the
27:37
market so much as when I look back at Jesus'
27:41
time, Jesus in the synagogue, he went out
27:45
and listened to the people. He he was with people, and
27:48
he wasn't asking people to conform to the synagogue. In fact, he was
27:52
bringing church to the streets, to every around the table and
27:56
in everyday situations, fitting in and
27:59
working with people from all kinds of diversities
28:03
and not othering people or or asking for conformity
28:07
to a religious structure. And perhaps we're not that
28:11
different. Even in our more contemporary churches,
28:15
there's structures and things in place that if you do not fit in there, you
28:19
really can't walk in. And maybe Jesus is using you
28:22
and other people that have this passion to to break the mold
28:26
a little bit and help us to create spaces for
28:30
everybody. And I think that's beautiful, the the work, and I'm so grateful that
28:34
God has put that on your heart. We need so much more of
28:37
that in our society. I know my family and my
28:41
community would be enriched if we had an inclusive
28:44
church community, if we had an inclusive society that they
28:48
could just simply be who God created them to be. So thank you
28:52
for sharing that. And I know other generations, we we hear stories
28:56
of of people that even if they were left handed, they
28:59
were, like, struck down with a stick in school. If
29:03
they thought thing about things, they might be brilliant kids, but if they
29:07
thought about it in a neurodiverse way, they were wearing dunce
29:10
caps and sitting in the corner and said, you are stupid.
29:14
And these things that were ingrained in them, and I feel
29:18
like now we need a reversal and a and a correction and
29:21
an alignment into who God has created us to be.
29:25
And where would you like things to go forward? As you have
29:29
researched these these things, as you were pastoring in a church, as
29:32
you were coaching, What would be your hope and dream moving
29:36
forward for us as a society to engage in?
29:40
Like I said, I think it begins with listening to the stories
29:44
and every story that came in is so
29:47
important. And there are so many stories out there. Like you say, you have so
29:51
many of your own, and I think that's the starting point. And so what you
29:54
guys are doing with your podcast is, is making a difference. People are sharing their
29:58
stories. And I think as people share their stories, people
30:02
start to understand that neurodivergent
30:06
people are human beings. They start to hear the
30:09
pain and the traumas and they start to listen
30:13
to what is needed for the change and so I think that's the beginning point.
30:18
Obviously, for churches to be willing to receive training in
30:21
it, I think is important partly why I'm creating this
30:25
training program, which I've actually put the pre order on pause
30:29
just because there were so many people from
30:33
different, walks of life that were interested in it, then
30:36
I'm I'm revamping it a bit to, actually have more than
30:40
one track or more than one edition so that I can reach
30:44
different groupings of people. I also wanna share the stories that have
30:48
come in through books and through, you know, different things like that too,
30:51
articles like cause I think it's important however we can get that out there. So
30:55
I really appreciate you having me on here so that we can continue the
30:58
conversation because that's what it's about. And and, again, I as
31:02
I said before, this is just innate within me to see each
31:06
person individually when I minister to
31:10
them or as I see them 1 to 1 with coaching or consulting.
31:14
But I think we need to do that regardless of the person that's
31:18
sitting in front of us, regardless of whether they're neurotypical or neurodivergent.
31:22
So for example, if somebody's coming to me from prayer ministry, ministry, they were
31:26
to pray for them or for guidance, spiritual guidance,
31:30
those kinds of things, I'll never approach them as
31:33
though they need healing as a neurodivergent person or as
31:37
a neurotypical person. It'd be kind of just as bizarre. Right? And I think that's
31:41
one of the changes in our mindsets that need to take
31:44
place is that we're not approaching that person like
31:48
they're need a cure, their fault, or or any of those
31:52
things. And and I'll be honest with you. So so
31:55
often Wendi when I'm seeking the Lord to pray for
31:59
someone, he has said, don't touch that. I put that there
32:02
and I like it. And but there's other things that he'll lead me
32:06
to pray for healing that's around those things is oftentimes it's
32:10
because of the traumas they've carried from society or because it's,
32:14
you know, their own inner beliefs because of of the things that
32:18
have come towards them. I mean, if we look at even the the diagnostic
32:22
criteria, it's all negative. Right? It's all if you
32:25
hit all these negative things, they're all. And so that person has that in
32:29
them and they think, well, all of this is wrong. Mhmm. We have
32:33
to be able to approach someone in looking at these things and
32:36
shifting them to pause it into a positive light. Mhmm.
32:41
Not assuming that that person wants to be fixed.
32:45
Some people do. Some people are really happy with who they are, but they recognize
32:49
that there's things within that this going on that need healing, like,
32:53
the things that I mentioned. But let's say, for example, someone's dealing with seizures.
32:57
You know, they might be neurodivergent person, love how their brain works, love how
33:01
creative they are, but they will also recognize that, you know what? I don't think
33:04
God wants me to have these seizures. Let's dig in for prayer for these seizures.
33:08
Do you know what I mean? So we have to really be listening to what
33:10
the person wants, what they need, what God's saying to us, and never
33:14
assume. Well, this has been so good to have this conversation with
33:17
you, Kelly. But before we end off, I'd love for you to
33:21
share a bit of, advice that from your perspective
33:25
for neurodivergent individuals who may be struggling
33:29
to find their place in their church or in in their
33:32
society, what are some advice that you would give them as they're navigating
33:36
life? That's a great question. And I think that probably my
33:40
answer will be across the board for all newer types, but it's
33:44
specific in a lot of ways, and I think neurodivergent people will
33:47
will understand. But I would say to people who are coming into the church,
33:51
trying to connect or who maybe have been hurt by the church,
33:55
to keep your focus on God to his character,
33:59
your relationship with him, because humanity will fail
34:02
us, but he is faithful always. And
34:06
forgive quickly. Don't let yourself be abused, but forgive
34:10
quickly. Right? Also seek God where you're to be connected
34:14
and be gracious to yourself and know that your style of worship and
34:17
connection is just as important and valued by God as the person beside
34:21
you. Also, because a lot of
34:25
the questionnaires people would say that they felt they were
34:28
exploited or the gifts were exploited, or or that
34:32
their their volunteer service was overused or,
34:36
you know, those kinds of things. I would say engage where you feel comfortable
34:40
and be okay setting boundaries. You know your needs and you know
34:44
where to put your energy. Be confident in that. That's
34:47
so good. Are there some resources that you recommend to churches and
34:51
leaders in the churches who are wanting to create more inclusivity
34:55
for everyone that are navigating this, we we don't have
34:58
it perfect. No one will. But are there some resources that you would
35:02
recommend that we explore? Well, in
35:06
the church, like I said earlier, there is not a lot of resources,
35:10
which is one of the reasons why I'm creating neurodiversity in
35:13
church's response certificate training program. And I honestly
35:17
think I mean, I might be a bit biased, but I think it's gonna be
35:20
phenomenal program for churches to grab a hold of.
35:24
Also, I'm opening up more space
35:28
for, church consulting. So if there are churches out there
35:31
who want to navigate a little bit more in-depth
35:35
or one to one with me, just how their, you know, how their churches are
35:39
laid out and what they could maybe do to be more
35:42
inclusive to all neurotypical. They they're welcome to contact me. Wow. That's
35:46
wonderful. Then I need to ask you, what is your contact
35:49
information? What's the best way for listeners to follow you and
35:53
to engage with the the resources that you have to offer?
35:57
Yeah. My website's great. I mean, there's a lot of information on there,
36:01
and there's, you can message me through there, or they can email me,
36:05
at info at Kelly Friesen c a. My website
36:08
is kellyfriesen dot c a, and that's also my handle on Facebook and
36:12
Instagram. So it's easy to find me.
36:16
Subscribing to my email list is probably really great too. I don't actually send out
36:19
a lot of emails, but when I do, they are, you know, updates. So
36:23
that's really great too. So it's a good way to make sure they don't miss
36:27
that. Just contact me if you need anything as far as
36:30
consulting goes, personal consulting or coaching, or,
36:34
if the churches are looking for something, they can contact me too. Thank you so
36:38
much, doctor Kelly, for coming on with us. Thanks for having me. It's been
36:42
great. So all those links will be found in the show notes to our listeners.
36:45
I encourage you to go check out our website, and you could check out CareImpact
36:49
dotca/podcast or journey with care dotca slash podcast to
36:53
find our podcast as well and Journey with Prayer as well. So
36:57
we got another great episode coming next week, so make sure you're
37:00
sharing with others. These conversations are important.
37:06
Thank you for joining another conversation on Journey with Care,
37:09
where we inspire curious Canadians on their path of faith and
37:13
living life with purpose in community. Journey with Care is an
37:17
initiative of Care Impact, a Canadian charity dedicated to
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connecting and equipping the whole church to journey well in community.
37:24
You can visit their website atcareimpact. Ca or visit journeywithcare.
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