Latest / The Good Builder Podcast / The Daily Dose #295 | Why 1 in 25 Builders Don't Survive a Decade With Rod Frampton
Transcript
- Aaron Ng (00:00) Now, before I get into it, a big shout out to the legends at my construct. If you're still managing your jobs, contracts, client comms across text messaging and spreadsheets, there is a better way. My construct is built by Australian builders for Australian builders. And it is the best platform out there as a construction software. Jake and the team are working on some really exciting stuff that we've got to have a sneak peek at. But go and check them out. is myconstruct.com. You can get a 30 day trial and the guys there are absolute legends and they're taking the Australian building industry by storm. So go and check out their platform. They are very, very cool. And thank you once again, MyConstruct for being the proud sponsors of this podcast. Aaron Ng (00:58) good morning and welcome to the good builder podcast. Today I have a fascinating guest and it's actually probably better that I spoke to him just before we started this podcast because I probably got to learn a little bit more about him. He's had over two decades in the industry. He's owned a business called Frampton builders since 2014. and the business specializes in custom homes and renovations and extensions, but he's also got a very interesting project, or not even project, a new company that he's working in that we're going to talk about later in a different sector of the construction industry. He's one of Brisbane's most trusted builders from what I've seen around there, and he is an absolute weapon, and he does a lot of stuff in the post-war and pre-war homes around Brisbane and Southeast Queensland. There's something about him that, I don't know before this podcast, we were talking and, and we were talking not only about building, just the way he views kind of life and things that he's curious about. And he's just a fascinating guy. he's got a documented process, which we're going to go through as well, which will help a lot of you builders out there called the Frampton way. don't want you to steal it, but you'll just see how driven he is and how process driven he is. And I can't wait to get this conversation going. So I am so excited to welcome to the couch, Rod Frampton from Frampton Builders and Frampton Clean? Frampton Clean Rooms. Frampton Clean Rooms. Yeah. So I didn't learn about this one yesterday, but before we get into all that actually Rod, tell me a little bit about yourself, mate, and where it all started, because you are fascinating, mate. I got to shut up, but one thing I want to say before you answer that. This guy here, I just had a conversation with him and I was like, man, I've been looking for a custom builder that is so well rounded and, and, and cares so much about the industry and so curious, you know, all these things that, you know, you probably shouldn't in your view, you look at things like a CEO of Avid property or Metrocon or something like that. You're an absolute monster, mate. So where did it all kind of start? What happened? Well, I guess, That's, guess I've always had the passion for business and the construction industry. And I've always thought, like I love being like a trades person. Like I'm a carpenter and I've been in the industry for over two decades. But I've also had a passion for business as well. And my view is that a builder is really a business owner, like a operator and stuff. And I was saying before, like, I'm very fortunate that I have my trade background, my experience and whatnot. But I believe like a builder, can run a company without having the experience in the industry. Like a trade background. If they as long as they have proper people who know, yeah, like, technical, a supervisor or project manager who has that technical ability, but the, the builder's role is ready to drive the company and set all the values and, and Look at all the financial and the forecasting, getting all the business. so yeah, yeah. Within about three minutes 30, cause I'm looking at the clock now. I think you are the fastest person to actually define what a good builder is. I agree. And I think it's very cool. Um, before the pod, as I said, me and Rod were having a bit of a chat and he kind of mentioned this kind of point. And I said to him, you know, mate, when I've worked at GJ's, our biggest country was New Zealand. And then I know you're from New Zealand. think people from New Zealand are a tad more professional than we are here in Australia. And I think, and that's what I've seen. I've worked over in New Zealand with builders with several groups, actually. And I've seen that across the board. not just saying it as a throwaway comment because I think you're wonderful. the other thing was, you know, that when you have a look at building, you really are a business owner, like you say. And when I had a look at New Zealand and GJ's and I was kind of like, who? Who are the highest performers in our group and who are they? Mom was an accountant. Yeah. Bought a franchise. And like he said, had a supervisor underneath him. I think they were the biggest and they grew. Oh, he was a banker. Oh, okay. Yep. Well, there you go. My God. they just shot. Yep. Yep. Papacura. And they just shot out of the gates like nobody's ever seen. I took a flight over there to talk to him. Yep. Yep. And I was like, how did you do it? And he was talking about being a banker, having a business background. Yep. Yep. I was pretty green in the industry, so I probably didn't understand a lot. didn't put two and two together. And then as I've done this good builder thing, sorry, this is your podcast, not mine. But as I've done this good thing, I just want to say something, but when I've done this good builder thing, and when I talk to people who have that kind of mindset and ethos and, and, the experience and the knowledge, I was like, they're weapons and make you are probably the most impressive that I've met in that smaller kind of crowd. Okay. Thank you. Sorry to say that on camera. No, it's all right. It's cool, mate. So tell us a little bit about Frampton Builders and Frampton Clean Rooms and how that's all evolved as well. Yeah. Okay. So Frampton Builders was founded in July 2014. So we've been in business for over 10 years. And statistically speaking, I think it's between one in 20 or one in 25 builders don't make it to a decade. Yeah. So, is kind of scary. and it comes back to the down to like knowing how to run, run a business. Right. so, yeah. And we, specialize in custom builds and, high end homes. So, at the moment we're, we're, doing halfway through a, a thousand square meter home. It's about $2 million project. Um, and my friends in clean rooms. Um, so that's just a new company. Um, I've just started, but I've actually been doing a project for two years. It's been gone for two years. It was in the planning stage for, uh, well, well, over a year. Um, it's been a very quick turnaround time in the project. Um, I think in total, including all the, uh, clients equipment and stuff is 20, about 20 mil. Um, and I actually got thrown in the deep end because at the time, um, cause I've been doing business with this company for like, I know five or six years and then they want to do like a small refurb, like a million dollar refurb. And to me at the time that was big, but then they decided part way through the planning and stuff. They said, Oh, we decided to, they decided to acquire these two warehouses without my knowledge. said, we've acquired, we're not going to do this refurb anymore. We're going to, we've got, we've already started on this, two warehouses. So then I got thrown in deep in and it turned out the warehouses that they acquired, that wasn't suited for what they need. we had to do like clever design and whatnot. And a lot of forward thinking how to go into this project. And it set me up with a lot of new skills and whatnot. So I just got thrown in the deep end. And fortunately, it turned out really good. so the TGA, Therapeutic Goods Administration, they're the regulator for pharmaceutical and clean rooms. They came to us and said it was one of the best facilities they've seen. which is really, really good. And that was one of your first. was my first. Yeah. The first has a huge site. So I was very, it's a very good feedback to get. So, yeah. and we put in times, timeline was very critical. What should have been like a 10 or so month bill. We pushed it in like six months and it's just a lot of coordination and, Yeah, a lot of a lot of communication, whatnot, where to get through with, with all the subcontractors and everyone involved. yeah. Yeah. Wow. So you'll be heading down that space and doing a bit. Although it was a very challenging and stressful project. actually learned a lot. So the next ones are going to be, I just have a lot of insight now. I actually enjoy that type of stuff. So it's something I really want to get more into. So yeah, that's, that's where my start. France and clean rooms. I love it, mate. Well, both businesses are a great success. As I said, we, you know, we look around and we have a look at the, builders we bring on and we want to make sure they're good builders. And we have a look at their reviews and reputation and people who talk about you. know Kirsty from good guys. And they just talk how, you know, how, you know, so highly of you, your customers do everything. Yeah. You know, when starting Frampton builders, what did you think was missing in the industry and what did you want to be known for? And what did you want to stand for? Because you seem like a pretty deep thinker about things like, I'm, you know, from large and small builders. Again, I'm sorry, everyone out there, but I'm highly impressed by this bloke. I've never had a builder sit there and go, I didn't even know the statistic. One in 25 builders won't make a decade. Like, you think about those things, don't you? You think about not surviving, flourishing, and how you do it, and how you're gonna be here in a decade, and what Frampton Clean Rooms is gonna be probably in a decade. No, exactly. Yeah. What did you want to stand for? Well, I believe there's a huge gap in the industry. Like I said, I feel like the late 2000s was a turning point in the industry, just with where quality stand. And I was very fortunate that I was taught by some very old school trades people. So they gave me my core values and everything like, you know, communicating, being honest and caring about your work and stuff. then also, you know, turning up to work early and whatnot and being proud of what you do. And I feel like that changed in the 2000s with, I think I told you, the Rudd government, they started incentivizing, they recognized there's a bit of a... This is why I think you're brilliant. Keep going. Yeah, they needed extra builders and trades people in the industry. what they did, they incentivized RTOs and they funded. Just to push through you would say. Yeah, to push through, push through more people. So basically, incentive for the RTOs is basically get, get numbers through because then they get their, their incentive, which and As you know, the construction industry and being a tradesperson, it's, it's a thing that takes time, right? It's a craft. So, and you got to do the time to understand like how things work and how to be professional and good at what you do. you can't just, give someone a ticket and say, you're right. You're, you're qualified. You got to really do the time and, get the experience. And I think that's. what lacks in our industry. And, and it said, that I feel like Australian, standards or skillset isn't where it should be. I feel like there is a change. There's, see a lot of builders wanting to, understand how to run a business and whatnot. And, but I feel like the government needs to heavily invest in upcoming apprentices. because my best trades people over the years have been from overseas, from New Zealand and the UK. Yeah. I'm currently sponsoring a guy from the UK because the skill sets really good. but I think Australia, really need to open in the short term. think we need to, invite, foreign, foreign workers, like skilled, skilled migrants. Yep. and need to incentivize businesses cause I had to pay, you know, I think 12 or 13 K to sponsor my, my employee, but, but you're bringing over a very skilled. But for me, it's an investment, but like, think the government, government needs to incentivize small businesses to, and encourage, cause it's going to shorten the gap skills gap. And that's how, that's our answer for, short term skill shortages. the long term skill shortage should be investing more into a press is encouraging apprentices into like young people into trades. Because a lot of and a lot of unfortunate a lot of young people don't want to do trades that they're more interested in like, tech and it and whatnot. But like, as you can see, AI is taking a lot of skill, like, like, white collar jobs and whatnot. But if you're if you if you're young, school leaver doing an apprenticeship. And you like that sort of thing. Doing an apprenticeship is like, is like a really good career path because like, it's AI is not going to take people's job in the next future. think I, know, I think you that's protected actually Claude, sorry, Claude put out a graph. Okay. I'm to put it up on social and I'm going to send it to you Rod because you are that kind of guy. You probably get out of rabbit hole and prove me wrong or prove Claude wrong. But I think it's right. And it had like a, a spider web graph. And it said, who's going to be most impacted and like, you are more impacted if you were near the center of the circle and trades were like right out of the. Okay. Yep. Yep. So I think you completely right now. Yeah. But you know what? And saying that I think it's not going to be far off, say maybe in a decade's time where robotics are going to start taking over some kind of skilled, like whether it's like an assistant or something like that, but there's going to be, you know, at some point in time when you're just going to have like a. like a robotic trades trades person doing carpentry or plumbing or whatnot to an extent. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. And I totally agree with you, Rod. When you were talking about that back there, that's I was like, well, you know, you really look into the industry and how things can be done better. And I think to your point, you know, you look at spending 12 or 13 K as an investment, think. That's your business head as well. And I think that's a really cool thing that not all smaller builders think like that. Nah, yep. Yep. As well. So I'm not, you know, saying that the government shouldn't pay you more money. I think the government should actually cover that with the money that they waste. Currently with their apprenticeship programs that go to different associations and get no result. Yeah. But yeah, I totally agree with you, Rod. Like imagine that was covered for you, You'd probably bring on another and... You'd be like scaling as much as you wanted. it's not about they made it, you know? Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And does it come your responsibility? Rod, can you tell me a little bit about the agreement when you sponsor somebody for other smaller builders out there that might have never done it and how you did it and what it kind of means? Well, I fortunately found him. He applied for a job. to come work for me. And then straight away we saw that he is really good. He's very clued on. His skill set was quite high. He a very range of skills. And then he just said to me, hey Rod, I've got to get my PR to extend my visa and whatnot. And he says, you interested? And well, he told me he was going to be, I was going to be about three grand. But then I have a friend, she's a migration lawyer. And then she sent me a quote and says like, 12th inning, I'm like, what the hell? And then I just like, I was joking in my head said, well, it's nice knowing you. But but then I just thought about like, you know what, it's an investment. Because then the other way you look at it, if you went to a recruitment agency, you'll be paying, paying sort of something similar fee to find them a good, and then they might not be the right candidate for you. And then might only last for six years. Whereas you got someone who's their Um, invested with you for the, they're to be with you for the next two years to get their PR. I think it's two or three years to, to, um, be with you for the next three years. So that's an incentive, like, you know, they're going to be with you long haul and they re they really want to get the visa. So they're, they're, they're going to be committed, um, as much as you and they've got to invest money as well. So that's other thing they're going to invest probably just as much or more to get that, get their visa side. So over it's like over a 20, 20, some thousand dollar investment for both parties. And it's, it's, I think it's a rort. think the government should really look at changing it because like, you want to help, absolutely. You guys know what skilled migration looks like. Do you know what I mean? Like this is where I'm at in my head and I'm probably too basic for the entire world. I think I was telling you, was down in Melbourne looking at all this money getting spent 300 million amongst people I don't want to talk about right now on the podcast, but I was like, exactly like you. Give it to small builders. Yeah. Yep. Yep. We'll pay you a fee. Like, where does that money go? No, it's crazy, mate. You completely right. Exactly. And not only that, I think they need to invest in skilled migration and they also need to invest heavily on apprentices as well. They need to reward both, I think apprentices to encourage them to come into the industry. More reward, you think? More money? Yeah. What are you saying out there Rod? Okay. Well. Cause it's an education too. I had an apprentice on the other week and sorry. that. Yeah. legendary guy. I was probably, I wasn't trying to put words in his mouth, but because of this 300 million that's on my head, was trying to steer him in the direction of you should be paid more. And I asked him, no, wasn't like, shouldn't do that on a podcast. But yeah. And then I went, Hey mate, you're writing, you know, what do you think? And he's like, no, you got to think about it. I didn't dream a year. I'm getting an education that makes an union that don't. get paid. He's absolutely right. And I was like, that's my, my thoughts as well. Very interesting. And I love the gratefulness of it. And I think you're training on the job. 100 % you think you look at it like you get someone. So two school leavers, right? Yep. And people, this is what school leavers don't see. Cause it's school you're encouraged. Like when I was at school, you encouraged to go to uni. You think it's being indoor, right? But you get to school. No, you get two school leavers, right? Um, say actually one of them is going to become a doctor, which is quite a heavy, heavy investment. takes like 10 years. Right. And the other one comes out of school, doesn't pressure maybe paint a plaster cup, whatever it may be. Right. They're paid and this is what annoys me when press is complaining. only get so much little money, but they don't have the burden of going to university. Um, paying for, you know, could be like a hundred thousand dollar, um, hex debt or university debt. They've to pay off over the next say 10 years or something like that. they're not even getting paid, they're gonna pay to get a ticket or a certificate. They're not guaranteed a job and right. And then like most I think statistically, I'm not don't stay me on this. But most people go to uni, they don't even do what they they studied. Yeah. And then they're up. And when you see you probably noticed that too. Yeah, yeah. But I've heard this year because it's true. Yeah, yeah. Yep. But then when the tradesperson when they come out of their time, they're fully skilled, they've also got employer and all that sort of stuff. And then they're basically making money straight away. And then they make good money. maybe, um, when, when do you make good money? I know this is jumping to the chase, but I'm going to tell my story because I was never a trader and I'm going to tell a little bit about my journey. I'd like to be, it's interesting. Uh, depending on your skill, skill level, but I think as soon as you finish your apprenticeship, I think you start earning um, like good money for you, for your age. say if you leave at 18 and you've, um, you finish when you're 22, you could be, I think maybe earning, you know, maybe, uh, 70, 80, 80 K for you, is for 2022 year old. Yeah. When you're 30, could be, you'd be earning over a hundred. If you're good at what you're doing, you could be earning well over a hundred grand and you could, by the time you're 30, you could be stuck being a, being a builder. Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yep. So, okay, this is my journey just for listeners out there because I'm not a trades person. tried, you know, I got involved with a building company later on in life. So I did the traditional path. Makes left school, became tradies. I saw how rich they got quicker than me anyway. I went to uni, business law and marketing degree. Six years. Was working in Sydney fish market, earning maybe. 400 bucks a week. Yeah. Yeah. So I was 22. Yeah. Had my business as a degree, thought I was going to get a job, couldn't. No, I'm out there at 23, 24 and I was selling, this is how old I am, I was selling calendars door to door in Western Sydney industrial areas and they were nudie calendars with women on them. This is how back in the day it was. And you could put your advertising space at the bottom and then give it out to your customers for a Christmas present. I did that for a year. Yeah. Wow. Up and down the central coast. Yeah. Sydney. Yeah. Then I got sick of that because I didn't want to, I was raised by my mom. didn't really like it anyway, but I couldn't get a job. just needed money. Then I did a research. You would have been in debt as well. Hex debt, right? Oh, yeah. So the hex debt wasn't even getting touched at this point. Really getting in touch, Yeah. Then I went and I did research. was a researcher. I eventually I got a better role in it, but I was running around Sydney giving packs of black cigarettes to people to try sitting while they were smoking them and doing a survey and what they tasted like. I did that for two years. Then I got a marketing coordinator job at Kmart. I was 26 I reckon. And I was on $45,000 a year. No way. Yeah. And then I built up 30. I was in shopping centers and commercial construction, maybe a hundred, GJ Gardner probably shouldn't say this. Going to say it anyway. Pretty much the international marketing manager. 150k. Yeah. Wow. That was my last job. Yeah. Yeah. And I worked my way up and I worked my ass off. think I was 30, know, approaching my mid thirties. Yep. Yep. Pretty sad. Not sad, but when you have a look at the thing, I had a great career. did lots of stuff. That's why I started a building company. Cause I needed to try and get rich later on in life because you're catching up. Like that is, that is, think outside for all of you guys and girls think about apprentices. I think that's a pretty standard kind of pathway for someone who to uni and maybe I'm a bit of a bum and couldn't took me a while to get a full time job, but it was competitive and it was tough. So I think you're completely right, Rod. Sorry, I went off on a pretty long tangent. I just wanted to show the difference, And also, I guess the incentive is doing a trade, you got the opportunity of doing a business, right? Becoming a business owner. So if you're clued on, you're smart, you could start a small trade business as well. So, you know, get the experience, you could be out of your time, you could do your four year apprenticeship and spend another five years just... working for under a good boss might not and then you can start your own business and start earning better money. Right? Like, and benefits and you could avoid debt like, mostly like bad debt most of your life and then you could work towards getting proper property and not getting the property market and all that stuff. Yeah, exactly. 100 % so so many skills that come with it. Yeah, yeah. So we might put that and you're safe. You don't want do, right? I'm going to put those two graphics, my life, your life side by side, not comparing. Congratulations to you. I'm not a jealous bloke. I'm going to put it side by side and go, here's the pathway of like traditional and uni student and traditional kind of builder. I that needs to be shown. I think sometimes we think too short term. the young ones, got to remember. Yeah. It's a long game. Hey, you know, I'm getting along in the tooth and I'm still ready to go. Yeah. You know, you've got a long way ahead of you to build something great. And speaking of building something great, let's get back to Frampton. Okay. And not my life. And we'll get, because there's a lot of stuff I want to talk to you and I could talk to you all day, mate. You are amazing. You talk about a few things, the square square meter track. Yeah. If you want to talk about that and you're cool with talking about how you look at that for building. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, think a lot of people, um, fall under that trap because we're square meter works and it comes into play is like, um, as you've worked for, it was like volume builders. Right. So it's funny. Cause I've got a phone call yesterday from someone who was saying, we're looking at doing a renovation extension or not. And I said, um, sure. What are you looking at getting done? And they said, well, we've got a really old Queenslander and we thought about doing a knockdown rebuild. And they said, it's going to cost us 800,000. I thought, oh man, that sounds kind of cheap. And he said, Oh, and he goes, Oh, that's from a volume builder. And they said, but they won't touch our job because one we're on a busy street. We're on a tight block. next to a school and all that stuff. So that's the thing with, um, where square meter rates come to play. So volume builders, they have like cookie cutter homes. it's like, um, the same home after and after like after and after again. Um, and that they, all their subcontractors, they're, they give them, this is what we chat. pay per linear metre rate then they have everything is basically set in stone the same, all the blocks are going to be flat, straight and, and that that's why they can put a square metre to their custom, their standard project home, right? Whereas a custom builder like there's so many variables with a custom build, you know, is this what type of size is a sloping site? Is it a flat side? Is it a tight site? is it what sort of cladding is it as an old timber cladding? it, brick? Yeah. So many variables that, you could be the same size home, but, could be so completely different. So that's, and I never entertain or never go back and look what my square meter rate is. it, just doesn't, doesn't, doesn't exactly in a custom build home. You cannot. Yeah. And then if you go down that rabbit hole, that trap and you tell someone, Oh, um, uh, well, if you go for square meter, it's going to cost you. And then next thing, $120,000 over as, as last wise. Well, well, because like your home is not a standard basic standard home. You got so many variables and yeah. So yeah. I Rob, the communication of a square meter, right? Um, I'm not putting it on the volume builders because I worked from when we used to square meters. Yeah. Do you think that's impacted the quality of trades as well? Like in a way, in a roundabout ripple effect way that they're having to sometimes work to a square meter rate. they're just kind of like, oh, do you think it's just the good trades won't take that kind of work? And there'll be certain types of trades that are just going to always be that way. Yeah. think when you start out as a business, I think maybe trades do fall into that trap. Okay. I think if you're like a. I think certain trades like, you know, for example, like, plasterers and, and paint and all that stuff, they do have a basic square meter rate because they can, cause a lot of their things is kind of standard and things that like finished and whatnot. but there might be a few, few variables like in a renovation and whatnot. but like as a whole, you cannot put it, put it down to a square square meter rate. but experience tells, sub trades or builders that you can't, cannot, go, go off a square meter rate. And that's where experience and communication comes. and education to the client saying, Hey, this is why you can't do a square meter, square meter, right? We've got to properly sit down and do the numbers. We've got to, do a full takeoff to fully understand what the costs it'll be. Cause I could give you a, I could give you a figure or give you a range, but I could be out by. Yeah, a lot of money. And then you're going to come back to me and say, you said it's going to cost this much. And that's, that's the rabbit hole you go down. Like, when people say, Hey, how much do you it's going to cost? I'm like, well, it's not that simple. There's so many barrels. got to, this, this is the process. we're going to, start off getting you some design, but figure out what your scope is. and like, you could have a budget of mine and, and the owner, the client can discuss to you what, this is our budget range. And like, for example, if they say, Oh, our budget's like $200,000. And we want to do a full build, build, raise and build underneath and extension on stuff, and you're not going to get that for $200,000. So you're gonna know straight away. So they could give you bit of a budget range and say, well, judging by your budget, do you have a quite a good budget? So you can be possible to get some what you close to what you need. If not, we can just look at how we can scale it to see still getting the what your minimum requirements are if you need that extra bedroom or two and and if you you can get that pool room or that swimming pool and because you got the budget we can we can add all those in but for now let's just see what what your minimum minimum requirements are like just to get make your home a bit more comfortable for your growing family and stuff yeah so that that's that's the approach i like to go i love it well if you don't mind rod yeah The 11 step process we alluded to earlier in the podcast, do you mind going through it a little bit? Cause that sounded like it was a bit of a process. And I was just sitting there like listening man. And I was like, this is so cool because I was like, you just understand your customer. You just really get to the nitty gritty and then provide a solution that may suit. It might not be their budget, but you're trying to find a solution to everything. But how do you get to that? So what's the, what's the. The Frampton 11 step process if you don't mind. Don't go right into it. No, yeah, you're IP, bro. No, yeah. So basically, it's a process. So it's a process of elimination. So like I was just saying before, you got to really understand what the customer needs and wants. then you have a document for that. Yeah, I do. If you go onto my websites, you find the Frampton way and it has all listed out. So it's an acronym Frampton way and then has everything. stepped out. So, and I believe it's the right process. and it's basically, like I said, it's kind of like a process of elimination. Like it's like a tick and flip box, in order, yeah. How did you come up with, is that it's, think it's just something that's years of experience and just, dealing with the client and just knowing, whatever, what everyone, needs and, the basic of the process. yeah, yeah, working with people closely and yeah, yeah, yep. Wow. Well, again, talking about, sort of working closely with people, you do a lot of renovations and extensions. We've had a, maybe we've had one other renovation extension built. No, had, excuse me, we dropped it today, actually. it was around, a gentleman who built in, for vital ease in NDIS homes and converting them to, you know, more compliant and so the person with an ailment can live in the home and make it livable. And one of the things he was talking about was how intimate the relationship can be because you're sometimes living in a home, working in a home that they're living in. What did that teach you about building actually, Rod? Because you must do some wild things with people still living in their homes. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny because well, well, I try not to, well, depending on the project size or what's involved, I'll try not to, it's a good idea that the clients not living in there, but at the same time I've had, like, for example, the, the clients we've got now, cause they've got a massive thousand square meter home, so we can do it in sections. So they're living in the home and like, we have a good relationship with clients who, who, well, I have good relationship with all my clients, right? And then it's cause you know how I SA don't become friends with your clients. Yeah, it's funny because I actually mean, yeah, yeah, dancing with them. Yeah, should become quite close with my client. Once in the end, so I'm friends with a lot of them. And a lot of them are still keeping contact, whether it's through social media, they might come in on my posts or, or some clients invite me out to dinner or I went down to the Formula One with one of my clients invited me to Formula One. this year and yeah, yeah. I have a good relationship in Melbourne. yeah. What build I get asked by their client to come to the formula one. It's usually the other way around. You know, that's what I'm saying. Rod. Yeah. Like there is something, not something about you. You are very clear on how you do things. You're a very good builder and you, and you are a very good business person. Yeah. So have that. it was, interesting. We've had a few builders on here and they've kind of gone, Oh, you know, I don't want a relationship with my client. And I was like, Oh man, because it's kind of like, call it, I've called it on a few podcasts, but when I was at GJ because I was outside of home building when I came in, because I was K-Marts marketing manager for a while as I sort of alluded to before, and I used to sell men's underwear. men's underwear, you just go in $12 pack three, let's go. You're at the door. I came into home building and it's like, Holy shit. This is like a marriage. Yeah. Like they're buying something from exactly exactly. then when a few builders again, name nameless, won't name them. Said, Oh, we don't really want relationships with our clients. And I think they want a relationship with us. I'm going like, nah, think they do. think they really do. They understand you. They want to trust you. And if trust is not part of a relationship, then I don't know what the hell is. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you sound like you're very trusted. No, yeah. that something you're mindful of? 100%. 100 % it's like a marriage. You both got to be able to click with each other. it's like it's a two way street. Like you don't want be going to business with, you don't want to be doing work for someone you don't really like or don't really trust or don't have values with. The same with the client. You don't want to go into a relationship with a builder who you don't really trust or don't have a good relationship. You guys want to be like tight, you guys got to be able to, yeah, communicate. It's just like, was a thing through this whole podcast. Yeah. yeah. So, and the other thing is, like the swish acronym, McP. and that's what, how you should sell as well as like myself company and product, and you should do that in order like, or just as important. So myself, like people buy people first. Right. So you want to be able to. develop that relationship with people, so myself, then company. you wanna, you know, sell on your company, what's, you know, companies, my company's been in business for over a decade now. We have good relationships with our subcontracting suppliers and then the product. A product is still just important, but you still wanna, yeah, still. the seller or three. So you just broke down exactly what I'm trying to teach. Yeah. Yeah. The good builder a little bit. Yeah. MCP. So it was myself, company and product company then product. Yeah. Yeah. That is the, the way that you view things. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Building value to your customer. So, and then, And relationships is a big thing, especially, I'll tell you what, like, with AI coming into these days with agents and whatnot. It's going to be a point in time where in the next few years where AI agents are going to be doing all the back end of things. you're, you know, if we're businesses, my AI agents can be talking to your agent and it can be doing all the paperwork and all that stuff and you oversee all that. So it's going to be more important than ever to develop that sales and relationship skills because you got to be able to have a chat to, yeah, your clients or. or to the business owner direct and you got to have that good relationship because long gone the days where it's all going to be you got to be sort of all the paperwork and send all the emails and I said it's going to be that's going to be handled all by your AI agents and stuff. So yeah, so sales is going to be more important than and built that relationship skills and communication is going to be more important than that than ever. Yeah, now that AI is coming in so. People, I don't think people realize that. yeah. Blow me away with everything you say, man. I love the way you think. I love how deep you are on looking at stuff because all I'm hearing in the industry right now, and I'll, I'll probably been a promoter of it as well. Don't get me wrong. I am not a hypocrite, but all I'm hearing in the industry right now is what can AI do next? What can AI do next? It does scam me a little bit. had a really good chat with a guy in Melbourne who I regret with respect to is deep in AI. has a Global business, very smart dude. Gavin Sloan, live chat monitoring. Love you, mate. And he's a lovely bloke and very deep thinker like you. And he was the only other bloke that kind of said the same thing to you. He's like, I'm so deep in AI. I love it. It runs my business. It runs other, you know, it helps me provide services to other businesses. But you've got to watch out. You know, when he said the same thing that you kind of said. And I think it is a hundred percent going to be a differentiator. Even now, think there are people being lazy right now. Getting back to customers with AI, just a simple phone call. Nah, yep. Well, I'll tell you what, um, I think people gotta be careful, especially people in new businesses. I think for established businesses like me, it's gonna, it's gonna be a very good benefit, very good tool, but like, well, because like I've, I've learnt the hard way or I've built these systems and processes over time and I've child and tested and all that stuff. Whereas like new businesses who are coming in, they're going to rely a lot on AI to build this stuff where they don't. then they can, then AI is going to say, get it, go to the market and say, this is how you should be running your business, blah, blah, blah. And then they're going to be gone. And then it's going to be, the, I guess you can say the blind leading the blind type thing in a way. but was established business to me, we already got our systems and processes. And then we're training the AI and the AI is going to be tweaking on stuff and making it more efficient. So I think it's going to cause a lot of headaches for businesses who are starting and going to rely on these agents to build their business for them. Cause it doesn't work like that. You got to, you got to have a really good knowledge of, think encourage people who are going to start a business is to get like a really good mentor and help them with systems and processes and then get the AI agents to help them build it out. Not, not. go to a, an agent and then say, build my business for me. and then, yeah. So, and like I said, the other thing, I think people could be aware of is that skillset of communication and learning how to sell properly and being like servicing your customer and that building that relationship with other business owners or that your customer. Otherwise you can't just rely on that, that agent to do all that stuff for you. So, okay. Freaking love it. Totally agree. Yeah. I think you're guiding the process. You're guiding the agent, the agents, not guiding you. No, exactly. You are. And you know what I liken it to? I liken it to your earlier comment in this podcast brought around, kind of doing time in your apprenticeship and learning from the old heads in the industry and getting that knowledge out of them. Yeah. Yeah. And then forming your thing and then you're off and running. I think it's kind of like that same sort of thing. It's like a People look at it like a shortcut, like the government did bring them in, push them through. But you, all you get is a substandard product and what you could have developed or service or business. If you actually went through the rigging yourself and learn. Time's a wonderful thing. when I started the good builder, I was so aggressive with it. Like I was running around lawyers and stuff. And I remember this one lawyer and I was like, come sponsor us. We're ready to go. Come on, man. And we probably had 20 followers at the time. Now we have like 35,000. Yeah. And, um, and I, and he, and he said to me, um, I'm not going to look at you right now. Like time in the boat, spend your time in the patience need to learn patience. stuck with me the whole time. was like, I sat there not feeling like a fool. said it in a lovely way, but I was like, I'm still, I'm older, probably older than you, mate. And still learning, I'm like, Oh my God. You're completely right. Yeah. I'm in the boat is a wonderful thing. even as life, like personally, as I get older, I get better. So I think you're complete. You're a fascinating dude. So cool. Well, unfortunately we've got to end the podcast, but we didn't actually get to really anything that I, you know, we didn't get too deep about. I'll tell you what you did. Yeah. You educated me and probably all of our community out there about a whole bunch of things. And that was very cool. So I appreciate you, Rod. But I want to have you back on it. Like I said, we've started this advisory board. I'm sorry to put this on you on air, but I to. And we've got some really sophisticated builders and suppliers and things that we are going to bring into ensure that we're talking about the right things and giving out the right perspectives and things that you've given to this podcast. Don't have to answer me live on this podcast, mate, but I love you to be part of the group. Nah, yeah, I'm very keen. So yeah, yeah. You're you are a weapon. My last question for you, and it's our signature question. And I think, yeah, mate, you are it. But what do you think makes a good builder? well, like I said, it's a combination of things and there's different different layers. sure like skill set and knowledge of the trade is important, but I think knowing your numbers and learning how to sell and communication and knowing how to run a business is probably ultimately the key thing. Financials, being able to forecast, your cash flow and know your numbers like are you, is your jobs profitable? Um, because a lot of like, I I can't remember what statistic is, like something like 80 or 90 % of builders trade in solvent. Um, and because, they think they're getting all this money cash grabs from the next project, next project. And then it comes to a point where they just run out of money. Um, and then major debt from like tax or creditors and stuff. So you gotta really know, know your numbers, like, yeah, your financials for being able to forecast and knowing that your jobs are profitable. then. Once you learn that you're going to know how to sell because you got to sell to the customer on, on why you're, you're no more expensive than the next job. Like, cause you, you're going to do them a good service. You're not going to do them a disservice by going bust halfway through the project or, running out of money and then asking for more money from them and, just cutting corners. Cause you've, you've under quoted a job. So you got to say, yeah. So knowing how to run a business. communication and financial. yep. Yep. Bloody hell. Mate, this has been a like, honestly, a really refreshing podcast for me. Sounds really bad, but like a really refreshing one. are amazing, mate. As I said, I've been looking around for a, and I met you at the Swish conference and I kind of went off, you know, and it took a little while to get you on here. was chasing rod down, but mate, yeah, I've been looking around. I don't know how else to say this, but like, think smaller custom builders almost need a role model, but there's a lot, there's a lot out there and there's a lot of builder coaches and different things and stuff like that. But I think they need a role model of, you know, who's doing it right in the industry. So it's an absolute pleasure to have you on today. And we've got a big community. I'll see what you're up to because I think, yeah, you're, you're a new level of, builder in that space. And I love the way you think about things. said off camera guys that, you know, I reckon, right. I've been in some big corporations and you could run any corporation. Not that that's a compliment. I don't know what it is, but like you impressed me as much as those guys. You've got the knowledge of those guys, but then you've got the practicality and the technical knowledge of a builder. You're freaking weapon. So thank you so much for your time, Ron. I don't know what else to say. I'm going to have you back on. Mate, I hope everyone loved that out there. That was fascinating, mate. Thank you again. Yeah, perfect. Well, thanks for your inviting me. was a pleasure. Awesome.