Latest / The Good Builder Podcast / The Daily Dose #284 | From Tree Lopper to Stroud Homes Franchise Owner — Tom Sachs on Building the Right Way
Transcript
- Aaron Ng (00:00.398) Don't be stressed about anything. I want to see if that's going to switch across. Hello? No? You're not going to switch today? Hello? It was before. Yeah. Aaron Ng (00:17.08) Sorry, usually... Aaron Ng (00:22.126) What I'm switching. Aaron Ng (00:27.134) one, combo two, should be on, mics are plugged, it was switching, come on man, no. That's really me. Aaron Ng (00:52.553) Hello? Sorry, Tom. That's all right, Technology never goes the way you want it to. Oh, mate, this is the first time it actually hasn't gone the way I want it to. Aaron Ng (01:10.801) Hello? You are? Yeah, it's pretty hot. worries. Hello? And you are really not gonna switch today. Aaron Ng (01:38.008) There is there is there. Yeah. It just. She might have seen the audio. I switch that. Aaron Ng (02:13.646) Hello, switch to me. Aaron Ng (02:20.012) Yo yo, no switchin' Rooney. What I'm gonna do Tom, I'm so sorry about this, it'll still work, it'll cut between our heads. Aaron Ng (03:02.73) What's this thing we're have to use? I'm so sorry mate, but it'll kind of cut us in there and I can split the screen and things like that or what leaves again. But anyway, you've driven all the way from the Lockheed Valley and it's time to get you back. You got to get back there, get the work done. Yeah, they're really good, they're good. Usually it's a good machine, man. This is the first time it has an auto-switched which is really interesting. But anyway. Alright, so that's the camera. We kind of just look at each other really like at time. Have you done one before? Never? No, you'd be cool. You'd be totally cool. And mate, I never have done them. I never put my head on camera for obvious reasons. But then when you did, no one, no one cares. And if you've got something good to say, like, man, I reckon your episode is going to go booming. Because the whole network of straddle listen to it and stuff like that. And we did one with Aletha and it was one of our highest. ranking episodes just because it went through so many people with suppliers that know you tradies all that stuff. anyway, all right, I'll kick it off. So good morning and welcome to the good builder podcast. Today, I've got a really, really special guest and I had a bit of a chat to him before we started this podcast actually. And I'll tell you what I really like the guy he's very, very interesting. We talked about some things that we both sort of had some experience in and a few thoughts around. But this gentleman here has been in construction for about 15 years and he's now the proud owner of a Stroud Homes franchise. The thing is he didn't come through the traditional pathway really. He's got that 15 years in construction. He worked lopping trees for a little while and then found his passion through that, which is going to be really interesting. And his path to actually owning the business is quite interesting. It'll show the type of guy that he is. He's going to tell us a bit about what makes a good builder. He's going to tell us about what the benefits are of joining a franchise system. But what we're really interested in is his story because he seems like a pretty amazing fella. And it's great to introduce to you Tom Sachs. Aaron Ng (05:24.386) from Stroud homes, Lockheed Valley, who is the franchise either? How are you? Yeah, good, man. Well, it's great to, to meet you, Tom. Like, I've been speaking with James and Fallon, I said, and mate, you were the one, that they pointed out and said, Hey, you should have a chat with this guy. He's a really interesting person. He's, coming to the network. not in your traditional path of, of a builder buying a franchise. And I saw that when I was at GJ's as a, you know, my, my past. But yeah, I'd just like to start with like, where did it all kick off? me, like, where did you find the love for it? Tell us a little bit about the story, about how you become the proud owner. Yeah. So, so like you said, I started in tree lobbying. So I had no idea what about carpentry or building. Sort of left school quite early, not knowing what my path would be. Yeah. Saw it out in the paper for a... a tree lopper and I thought, wow, I get to play with chainsaws and climb trees. That's right up my alley. Yeah. Love a bit of adventure and adrenaline junkie. Yeah. So got a job doing that. And it was just the boss and I. And that was quite a fun, fun job for a young person. Yeah, kept me fit and kept me outside. But it wasn't a lot of work. wasn't a Monday to Friday. 40 hour a week kind of thing. So in the quiet times we would go into his dad's shed, mill up timber from some of the logs that we kept, build furniture. And then that's where I discovered my passion for working with wood and timber. And then work just got quieter and quieter. And I was working maybe once a week and I thought this isn't going to help pay the bills. And my dad happened to know someone. that knew someone that could get me an apprenticeship. So I went in for an interview, got an apprenticeship that was with Lange Rock and started in the commercial industry. wow. No idea that was all steel and concrete and no timber. Yeah, what I was hoping for. But I stuck with it. A couple of other mates were doing carpentry apprenticeships as well. And we're comparing paychecks. And mine was much higher than theirs in the resi industry. I thought at least this will get me through my apprenticeship and Aaron Ng (07:46.19) with a decent wage. Yeah. Yeah. So that's half the battle. Hey, it's tough when you're an apprentice and I was living out of home at the time. So doing the commercial, I got lots of overtime, Saturday rates and gave me a good feel of the engineering side of things. And they really molding us to be leaders rather than carpenters. But I was so dead set on being a chippy that I was going to the contractors and saying, Hey, Aaron Ng (08:43.801) and we got to see from the ground all the way, ground up to defects how units were built. So there was like 10 stories set of units at front. two, two stories set of villas to the side of that. And then nine, three story homes on the river. Wow. So it was a good rate experience. I love that one where I could really see everything from footings to block work to bulk earthworks. Wow. To fit off, you know, everything. We even built a pool in that one as well. So it was a good project to get a full experience. Scope of everything. And at scale. At scale. Yeah. And it got to me at the end, I was still in my apprenticeship, still wanting to be a carpenter, they're pushing for more of a supervisor role. And it just was a long, I think I was there for two and a half, three years, just the same place. And that started to get to me as I take them up to the form. need more experience. I don't want to just come off this project and go straight to supervising. So they put me out to the Gatlin University, funnily enough, and that was the start of my discovery of the Lockyer Valley. Wow. And we were out there. They signed me off out there, tried to push me towards supervising and I was still dead set. I'm just being a carpenter. So they said, well, you can go do form work, which is as all chippies know, not carpentry. Yeah. Yeah. But I was still going to buy a house as well. And I thought, well, at least I can do this to get enough money in my pocket to get a deposit and get a house. That's what I did. And then Aaron Ng (10:29.857) We weren't married at the time, but my partner and I at the time, I got a nice little house in Darra, timber home exactly where wanted so we could renovate it. And then within about nine months of owning it, we got done in the 2011 flights. we got the, we checked all the overlays before we bought it. We told it was a one in a hundred year event flood. And I thought I won't be around for a hundred years, stupidly just dumb young minds. But knowing that I made sure I had insurance. it was just out of the blue. So I think the floods were January or February. In December, I got a letter in the mail from OnePath saying, have now taken over whoever I was originally insured with. can't remember who it was. And then involved as it said, you are now fully covered for flood. And I thought, I thought I was always covered for flood. Anyway, scrunched it up, it in the bin. And then literally a month or two later, done in the floods. we remembered that later and thought I wonder what would have happened if we know. Wow. So that was a bit of a battle trying to get you know, the insurance company got the three builders to do the three quotes and they were doing hardly anything badly. I think they were going to replace some covered doors on the kitchen. And the head and the water came up about half a meter into that. Sorry. 1.5 meters inside the house. Far out. We weren't the worst off as far as like we've known some of those other places. Yeah, but we had water in the house and essentially chiprock was wrecked, skirting was wrecked. For the timber floors or wall and all that sort of stuff. So I saw the figures that they were quoting and someone suggested why don't you just ask for a payout? And I was a carpenter. I thought, oh, yeah, can do heaps for that amount of money. So we we got the payout registered for owner builder jacked it up two stories above flood level. So we could build another story about flood level underneath. love it. I love it. It was a hard task trying to rebuild your home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we, we lost a lot of our stuff, but Aaron Ng (12:47.277) We were kind of prepared and we got the important things out. But I was still very skeptical. The wife was like, we're flooding. We're leaving. Yeah. But she was right as she always is. And that was a good thing to say. yeah. So it was a bit of a mindfuck. Wow. trying to up the motivation to get it all done. And then there was just like they told me the payout was coming. So I quit, quit the job I was doing. And then it was still another three months or something until they actually gave me the money. So I was I lost a lot of motivation that period as well. And but anyway, we got into it, jacked the house up, got upstairs all done. life felt pregnant with our first kid. Wow, wow. Doing the renovation. made me realize my love is residential. I love it. I love building homes. love working with timber. I've spent all these years in concrete and steel and this is where my passion is. So we got upstairs ready enough for a little bump to come along. Oh wow. It was nice having a nice brand new home fully renovated. That you built. That we built. And I think that's the coolest. I think there's a lot of men out there that want to be able to build their own home. For sure. You know what I mean? Yeah. It was, it was a thing. and I was very stubborn and I wouldn't let anyone help me and I was like I've got to do it all myself. Good on you. Excuse me. Aaron Ng (14:28.941) Yeah. Uh, and it's impossible building things five meters off the ground. Yeah. It was a of a silly move. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but anyway, that was where I was like, all right, screw this. I'm not going back to commercial, not going back to form work. Um, so I started doing contracting carpentry. Um, I did a few, a few jobs with builders, but I was more chasing the private work. I really liked doing decks and roos over decks, a little extent, little like bathroom, renos and that sort of stuff. So we're doing that. Why? Tom? I don't know. I just enjoyed it. I just liked that style of work. Okay. Okay. And it was just some things you like some things you don't like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just what I liked and yeah, cool. I had a group of friends that are all chippies as well. So we would help each other out and you know, I'd help them that helped me. And then And then I was working with a fellow that, you know, we were kind of 50 50, but I was doing all the quotes, was doing all the site meetings. We sharing the labor costs. And then it kind of got a bit tedious. And he ended up just being the ground lucky all the time. cutting guy all the time. When do I get to be the cutting guy? So, so I kind of steered away from here, got a contracting job with a fella in Inala. There was a big subdivision there. He got on with this Vietnamese builder in there. they were ripping out all the old veggie farms and subdivisions. Oh, wow. Which was cool. And there was a lot of work. Then I thought sweet. I'm set for a little bit here. Yeah. But I'll make didn't pay me. So the first week went through and I was like, man, I got a family I need. I need wins wins payday. He's like, Yeah, yeah, it's coming. It's coming next week. Next week. Second week still not paying. So Aaron Ng (16:22.165) In the process of that, told Janice, can you start applying for jobs for me? This is seeming very dodgy. Yeah. And yeah, I got a call on Smoko on time from a builder that I put a resume through to. then second week came through and the guy was like, yeah, I'm still not going to pay. So I just said, I said, look, I've got another job coming up. I'll do that. And if you need me, give me a call. And then he just dog me and wouldn't answer my calls. Never paid me. my goodness. And, the society, the industry, haven't had to talk much about, but it's good to raise it, man. Isn't it? know, it's really bad. then you pull every excuse under the sun. You went here on this day or whatever. was there every single day. a lot of people end and they, they say to you it's contract work. It's ABN work. But then later in life I learned that, you know, well, he should have been paying my super should be working work cover. But they just claimed that it's AVN work. So you just invoice me and I'll pay you. So I'm constantly asking, where's the contract? know, when are we, when's payday? When are you going to take my bank details? Where do I email my invoice to? And so he, yeah, he ripped me off two weeks worth of work, which was really hard for us back then. We were just basically paycheck to paycheck. This wasn't working because we had a newborn essentially. Yeah. Very little kid. Far out, man. But anyway, I found this builder in Ipswich and I was wages and they had an office and had a HR lady. And it kind of reminded me a bit of Lang O'Rourke. I thought, oh, this guy, you know, he's going to look after me. I'm going to get paid weekly. There's no risk of going weeks without pay. We've got a mortgage. We've got a young fella, single income. So jumped in with them and they were, he was very much, he spoke my language. It was all about quality work. Aaron Ng (18:22.399) He had his own carpentry crew, had his own cabinet maker, and he was all about high end stuff. was born and bred in Ipswich, but went out to the Gold Coast and Brisbane after that. And he wanted to bring that luxury sort of high end quality into Ipswich. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was jumped in with him. And just randomly, in the process of looking for another job, an insurance company I'd applied for had an estimating job. wow. did that interview and I did the Ipswich Builders interview and then at the Ipswich Builders they said, have you gone for any other interviews? I just mentioned I have gone for an estimating role. Yeah. But I'm happy to take this job. And then they were their plan was to hire an estimator. So I think this was Novemberish. And then that plan was to have an estimator that was coming in January of the following year. Yeah. Yeah. He just bailed on. wow. HR lady remember from the interview that I was doing an estimating interview as well. Yeah. they said, would you like this? Yes. it took me a long time to try and there's my first like step off the tools, my first job. Have the sun in an office. And I was really concerned about like this. Yeah, Spent my whole life outside making things and yeah, yeah. culture shock, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Like, is this going to be the right thing for me? I always knew I had to get off the tools eventually. Yeah, you see all the old fellows that just busted the knees and done the backstab. You always know you can't do it for your whole life. Yeah. Thought supervising was going to be the path off the tools. even know what estimating was. But Aaron Ng (20:19.117) had a good chat with with Mrs. And we thought this is probably a good option. Getting off the tools a bit earlier than expected. But it sounds like a good path. And you know, looked at what the salary was for full time, qualified estimators and quantity surveys and thought, that's a solid wage. Let's, let's, let's do this. Good on you. So he was the builder is working for very knowledgeable. rated building taught me formulas for brick takeoffs and essentially taught me all the things and he had data build, which is an estimated. Yeah. And I got to learn, you know, just the basics of how to roll through that. I think I did four quotes the entire year. Yeah. He had a massive setup. He thought he just had a drafty receptionist. He had a manager. But lucky thought if you just hired the people, the work would come. Yeah. And that wasn't the case. So four quotes an entire year. By the end of the year, we all got sacked. Yeah. Cause he's like, shit, I'm just burning money. It's not working out. But, strangely enough, the receptionist, I remember it was a bit of a toxic environment. I can't remember if she left or she got asked to leave, but she was randomly in the park across the road from the first Scout Homes Brisbane West display home. She loved houses. Even though she was a receptionist, had a very high passion for homes and styling and all that sort of stuff. She went in there and met Jason, the owner at the time, who just started his own franchise. And he's like, you'd make a really good salesperson. do you need a job? And she's like, yeah, hell yeah. wow. So she got in there and Jason was just starting. my goodness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's like, Jason, you need to hire Tom. He's this estimator that I was working with. Here's his number. Call him. Get him on board. Aaron Ng (22:20.277) So I had the, the interview with Jason while I still had a job with the other builder. Wow. we had a chat and originally I was a bit like, it's kind of on the same level as I am. I'm only a year into estimating. I'm liking this other builder because he's got all the knowledge. He's teaching me all the things. we had a good interview and I walked away from a gone. You know, I might be good opportunity, for now I might stay where I am. Yeah. Wow. A few weeks later, the other guy shut the business down. Basically said, you're all you're all sacked. got two weeks. Wow. So originally I was on the front foot and then I was on the back foot. So Jason, Hey, is that job still going? Wow. And that's where it all began. that's where it began. So I got in with, he's, he was having a kid the exact same time. So we were due for out for number two, just as I got sacked as well. And, um, I might've even just come back from, I took the two weeks to eternity leave, um, paternity leave, whatever it's called. And I just come back and then they're like, you're all gone. You're shutting the business down. I was like, fuck, two kids, one a baby. Mrs. isn't going back to work anytime soon. Wow. and and Aaron Ng (24:01.337) using data build as well. So I already had a bit of bit of experience with that. And then it all just kicked off from there. And I went from having to do all of it, sales and production. And we were quoting units and all this sort of stuff back at the other builder. So just doing home residential homes, just doing the sales quotes and I thought, this is awesome. I got all this. was had spent time, but I loved it that much. would go home and I'd keep quoting at home and I'd be playing with data build at home and whatever reason, the just that side of it just really, I loved it. And I went from being on the tools in the sun, getting home, you're wrecked. to this job where I'm just in the aircon sitting at desk, I'm just this fucking easy ass. I do this 16 hours a day. So yeah, so that's where it all started. Sales list of Manning & Stroud, Homes, Brisbane West. Then the other estimator just wasn't working out with her. Lots of mistakes and... found out that she really, she had the experience, but her husband was an engineer and her husband was doing a lot of the work for her. So one, I called her out one day where we'd gotten an E. store classification on a job where we needed to, so we were predominantly doing waffle pods. The engineer came back and said, this one's gotta be conventional Rast Lab. So Jason's gone to the experienced one in the group, this lady, and he's like, hey, can you please, we need to work out the price for this, the upgrade quote for the customer. I promised him I'd have the quote back to him this afternoon. Can you get it to me by lunchtime? And we were sitting next to each other, Aaron Ng (25:56.264) my goodness. And then it was, yeah, yeah. He, and then I saw the email come through and then she went to Jason. And then I didn't really say anything at this time. I just thought, okay, I know her qualifications now. Yeah. And then even more things came out where she's like, saying, what's a coach screw and just just normal terminology that estimators should know. So we grew very quickly. We're all working out of the garage of that display home at Debing Heights. wow. and then we needed a contract administrator. We had the two estimators and then whenever the supervisor would come into the office, you know, there was just no space and I ended up sitting in Jason's desk. He would work out in the kitchen and he's like, all right, we've got a mountain of work coming, we need an office. So we moved out to the Ipswich office and then we working out there for a while and just more mistakes, more mistakes and he ended up letting her go. I need you to do sales and production. wow. Okay. Busy as already, but I'll take it. Let's go. Yeah. So I've got my head around data build really well and I'm just still loving estimating. And it was just a good fun time where we were just booming. Aaron Ng (28:01.805) and I started originally more from my own sort of head to know booking my own timetable in my head. But Jason obviously saw something else in me in that, you this guy's asking all the right questions and pushing things along. and then he offered me the job, the role as manager of the office. So we were kind of running things simultaneously. He was still running it mostly, but I was kind of... probably more helping the office get things along, get moving things from sales to contract, but still doing all the estimating at the same time. And then, yeah, we were just going gangbusters and kept growing and building more display homes. And along the way, learning a lot of the... the and We kept growing and then I became involved in hiring staff and sort of really took on that management role. We got a few estimators along the way and I was able to hand that role over. Aaron Ng (29:37.838) And then we hit a bit of a dead patch and we had to sort of lay a few people off and then I took the estimating role back on. And then I got invited to one of the franchise conferences and sort of got really inspired and sitting in there, hearing everyone's story and James teaching us certain things along the way and know, subbies coming, suppliers coming in and having chats and... Yeah, getting a really good feel for it. Still no idea that eventually I would be one of my own. It's fascinating. So we so cool expand. then because at the time the Lockyer Valley was a free area. Yeah, so us being Brisbane West, which was basically Ipswich. We were building in Fernvale, Kensington Grove, and then Toowoomba franchise was also doing some Gatton and more western areas. Yeah, yeah. And We, we sort of Jason went to James and said, want to expand. he said, yeah, well we can, we can offer you lock your value if you go into partnership with Tom. So that, that's kind of where, where it all started. Yeah. that's how it happened. That's how it happened. If you go into partnership with Tom. Yes. That is so cool, man. Obviously they saw the value in it. It's a fascinating story. I was sitting here and I was going, cause we talked before the pod and I was like, You're different. You, you, different the way you think about things. You seemed very well rounded. You've, you've, and I can see it from your background. You've been on the tools. You've been in the office. You built your own home. You've kind of done it all. Yeah. I've got, got a taste of all the, when I look back, see, know, like, why did I be at a tough journey? Don't get me wrong. You had a tough journey. Yeah. but it was, it was never. Aaron Ng (31:34.464) I want to leave school, be a chippy, be a builder and start from there. was just little stepping stones. Just, just pave, pave the way. And I look back and I feel like every part that I've done in my life, has led me to, to this, to where I am now. And it seems, albeit a hard journey that you enjoyed it too. And you push through it, you know, where a lot of people don't push through, you push through a lot of adversity there to get to where you are. it's cool, man. And you had no expectation. expectations. I've always just gone with the flow. Life throws shit at us all the time and you you just go with the flow and try and find the positive and everything. I'm not going to answer your last question because we'll save that for the end of the pod, you know, we often talk or we all we often ask what makes a good builder. And like, I think your little story there kind of tells it. Like honestly, hey, Tom, like it's a cool story, man. I can see like when you were talking about building your own home, I could see the passion in your eyes and how passionate you were about doing it. And that's why I said that comment. Like every man wants to build their own home and it's true. And you've done it and I could see that. And then when I asked you the question around, um, you know, doing the little decks and bathrooms and you enjoyed that type of work. Why? And maybe I'm sitting here trying to be a psychologist, but I'm like, I think you like to, for me, it feels like. You like to get the job done and finish it off and leave something nice for either yourself or the client. And that's why you sort of became a building. like creating things that make people happy and live in a great space. But beyond that, then you know, all the, all the numbers and all that. It's a really fascinating background. What was some of the things that you felt like did commercial building, for example, do you think that helped you a lot in becoming a franchisee in terms of knowing a sense and a different way of how they build and they're very structured and scheduled and you know, there's all the tenders and process and all that. They're very stuck in on, was that something that you thought helped you along the way to talk? Yeah, I think it, sort of started that little spark. Okay. It was the seed that eventually sprouted sprouted because I didn't get to see a lot of the tender side of things, but I heard them talking about it. Aaron Ng (33:56.332) just hearing them talk about it sort of just said, okay, well, that's where it starts or that's kind of a path of it. And the commercial side of things really helped me understand that the structure side of it, but also like the side of things where... the safety side of things. And you know, they're so strict in that, in that area of, to the point where you gotta wear gloves, gotta wear long sleeves, which we don't do in our game. But even the sign on process for some, yours would have been insane doing universities and things like that. It was at the time, annoying. But then knowing that's, you know, the high end of it. meaning that when we do our stuff, we can implement those sort of things at a basic level rather than just not worrying or doing anything about it. Cause I think parts of the resi industry can be very cowboyish. And sometimes it gives the subbies the freedom of you can come to work and be yourself. The commercial side of it's too much. feel like you're very squashed down and not good with thumb, it definitely just gave me those little hints and pointers of as to how to make sure you cover yourself and you make sure everyone's being safe. And yeah, that helped in so many ways. I hated it at the time. And I hated the industry and I still hate that side of it. It's... You know, it's very unfortunate side of the world where there are lots of suicides and lots of young people. Um, because no one's got their back. You'll have little clicks, but what I know in commercial commercial, a lot of that industry and that side of things, maybe it's changed now. been a long time since I was there, but it was a giant deck swinging competition. I'm better than you. Just, just the day to day chat between the boys. Aaron Ng (35:58.402) Yeah, my car's bigger or better than yours and I've got the bigger, boat and I've got the the hotter, messes them and it's just... competition on top of competition. And no one's out for anyone but themselves. And they'll throw you onto the bus at the second they get. Whereas I found the residential side of it because it's smaller, tighter groups. And you know, there's just bonds that are formed. And the plumber, you know, the plumber knows the tiler and they were able to call each other and you know. even in between trades, a lot of them, there's good friendships and mateships in that. People have each other's back and I... That's why I always just kept coming back to the full resin side of things. It's bit of a dog eat dog world out there. I agree. I think we spoke about it. I worked a little bit in commercial too and I wanted to get your opinion because that is my opinion. It's a very dog eat dog world and they are a different breed to residential construction, unfortunately. I don't know if it's time pressures or the way they conduct business with each other, but it's a very interesting sort of world over there. Totally different world. Now moving back to your Stroud time, what was the biggest thing that surprised you when you joined Stroud as a franchise owner? You'd probably been there for a few years, but do you think, like levels of support or what did you think was something that you didn't expect? I've been thinking a lot about this question and it's a hard one to answer because I think I... Aaron Ng (37:33.206) because I had a very close relationship with Jason and he involved me in a lot of the things. already knew what to expect. And it definitely made my decision to sign up with him very easy because I saw the numbers. saw what you couldn't achieve from it. But also I saw the support and you know, like I know how to build a home, but marketing was, you had no idea about even being a salesperson. had no idea about. So, what, yeah, to answer the question, I don't think anything was a surprise. but I just felt like it was a very... good model in the Stroud side of things where you have the support, your website's done for you. You know, they help you with lead generation, they teach you about lead generation, teach you about marketing. And they teach you what to look at as well as far as your numbers go. And all those things. I didn't quite answer your question. you did, Tom. No, you did, mate. You did because there was nothing that surprised you. I think that's a good answer, mate. Like, that's what I asked you. And I think nothing surprised you. because you'd been there, but I think you made the point around why you joined the group and I think that's just as cool. Some of the other things that I wanted to ask you around joining Stroud was, and we spoke about it before the pod was, and I'm putting words in your mouth because I know your answer because we spoke before the pod, but the network. What does that mean to you, That's everything. It means so much. Aaron Ng (39:18.401) You know, we've got a chat group. We were on box and now we've converted over to WhatsApp. We've got a chat group where anyone can put any question in there. And that's we've got one for builders. We've got one for salespeople. Really? Salespeople from the other side of the state from New Zealand can put questions in there. You know, you can share designs or pictures that you may have built of homes that you may have built that they have it, that they want to show a customer. and then when times are tough as well, we've seen a lot of tough times over the last few years, you have just so many people there that have either gone through it before they figured out something that you haven't yet. only a phone call away and email away. and everyone's willing to help. know, it just means so much where, you know, we were speaking before and you were sort of saying similar thing. didn't know who to ask outside of the franchise. Like when you went into franchise industry and you don't want to call the competition because you don't want to maybe accidentally share some valid info that they haven't. Yeah, I'm about to do this. Yeah. Have you done it before? Yeah. Well, it's not something you really want to share. You completely right, Tom. Whereas when you're not competing with these other guys with your neighbors. You've got that option just openly and freely ask the questions with minimal judgment. And everyone, at least someone within the group has done something that you haven't done yet before. And you can just give them a call and say, or even if it's a design that you haven't built yet. you just go hey how do you do that beam through there or whatever it might be you have the engineering wow it's just so helpful and it just helps when they're growing we're growing yeah Aaron Ng (41:13.695) And then that knowledge is passed on to me. Then I can pass it on to newer teams as well. just, we just all help each other. It's just, it's one of the main reasons that I joined up just knowing that there's that network of people just ready to go ready to help you. Yeah. And you know what, like it seems like you were that same type of person. I think I said at the beginning of the podcast, you know, your, your own head office nominates you to jump on this podcast because of the bloke you are and that you love. And I can hear from, talked about commercial compared to residential and saying you love the culture really of how we do things in residential. You're saying the same things here now and, and, and trust me, mate, I bet you, Tom, that's a franchise. These are saying the same thing about you. And you seem like right now sitting here sharing all the stuff you have. It's really cool, mate. And does make it so much more powerful, doesn't it? Much more enjoyable. you or you plus, you know, a phone book full of other numbers to call them. We see each other, you know, for the conferences as well. it just that doing the conference altogether as well as Greg, because that helps build the friendship and the bond a bit more. Cause sometimes it's a bit awkward. You never met someone you call them. But when you've met them, it just makes it a little bit easier. Yeah. No, that's really cool. Well, your first year in the franchise, I know you had a bit of exposure because you're working alongside Jason. and doing a lot of the work in that particular franchise as well. But what was the first year as a franchise like? Tom, did you find it tough? It was tough. was interesting because we were, Jason and I were still trying to do both. So it was almost like Lockyer Valley was a side project or just extra space for us to build in. But we were still very much trying to keep Brisbane West going. and and we are looking back I think we were just thinking Lockyer Valley is just you know just a bit of bit of extra cream for us and we got a bit of a rude awakening one day and we were told like what the hell's going on Jason you look after Brisbane West, you look after Lockyer Valley and then from that moment was was when we put put the land the line through the sand and we we went and split split the teams up and we we were able to build Aaron Ng (43:33.872) Lockyer Valley. We had a couple of sales at that point and that's when we decided, let's do a display home. We found there was a small QM development in Plainland. Excuse me, that's where we kicked it all off. We got a block of land there. The first one we soil tested was E. wow. let's try and build our first display home. There goes 50 grand straight away. Yeah. And then across the road was a better soil test. Wow. So we kicked off there. And the first year as well, COVID hit. So we just started up and then COVID restrictions hit. So that was, that was a little bit scary trying to navigate that. Not knowing are they going to keep construction open? Thank God they did. Dealing with the price rises and things like that. Yeah. With the new franchise? That hadn't quite kicked off this year. Okay. Yeah. So I think it was the first year was probably just a bit of still concentrating on Brisbane West. Towards the end of it was like, all right, let's make Blocky Valley series. Let's try and a display home during COVID. So we got into that and then they released that government grant and then the leads started flying in the sales were flying in and we thought, holy shit, we've made it. This is amazing. Yeah. Um, but yeah, we all got the rude shock very shortly after that. went from having 10 frame slots available a month to you're allowed to have the Lockyer Valley. then, yeah, the first year wasn't too bad, but I think the second year was when that really kicked in and that was, that was a Aaron Ng (45:14.747) Yeah, yeah, yeah. How'd you work through Tom? Like how do you work through that when there's not enough, whether it be material or trades or whatever to get the job done? What do you lean on and what did you learn from that? Yeah, it was a very interesting time. We'd never had to deal with it. And it was a matter of stringent forecasting, like realizing those five slabs we had booked, we can't do that anymore. can only do two. But one of the strategies that we came up with was, let's get the slabs down. Because not only were we dealing with lack of material, a heap of jobs ready to go, prices going up, it was the wettest time that we'd had in many years. wow. I remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. was some more floods. We two floods during that period. Yeah. Yeah. So we decided, right, let's get the slabs down, knowing that we're gonna have a pause on frames, and we'd run and buy the customers and tell them that this is our plan. We want to get your slab down so we're out of the ground so that we can, while it's dry, can get that work going. And then just tell them like your job then goes on hold. And then when the frame comes along, we kick it back in and we just, I'm sorry, but we're to have to extend the time frame of the build for the amount of time we have to work for the frame. So, so that was kind of our first strategy. were getting the frames up, but then there was a roofing shortage. That was the first, was the timber in the roof. Yeah. Yeah. Mega hail storm. Yeah. Went through Southeast. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All the roofers were working on new homes. Then they were out insurance jobs. companies were just jacking up the prices. Yeah. They're making good coin. And I remember that. Yeah. Speaking to some of the, the roofing companies, was as hard as it was. Aaron Ng (47:11.763) they're saying we haven't had a a wage increase in nearly 10 years. So, so the boys are finally getting paid for what they should be. Yeah. always trying to find the positive things that at least those guys were getting paid. I you said that man. But it was tough for us builders. So we realized, so my supervisor Zach, who's still with me, I'm a great guy. Wow. He, very cool. He and I just sat down and we realized, right, all we can do is get these jobs as quickly as possible. There's no one else available. These people are the people are going to do the work for us. They're going to jack their price up, but we just have to accept it because we know they're going to do it. Like if we accept their price rise, then they're going to book the job in and we can move forward. And I remember talking to a lot of people still with that mentality of, you, we'll find someone else. That price is ridiculous. Someone else will do it, but there just wasn't anyone else that could do it. and knew that the cellbies knew and the supplies knew that we had no other options so can basically name the price. But we knew that if we got them there, we got through the work, we paid them on time, that they'd come and do the next one. And that was it. It was just accepting the price rises, moving forward and getting these off the books as soon as possible. I think that was the biggest thing that got us through is just trying to smash through them as quickly as possible. Get the job done. the job done and just accept that the price was the reality. And that's the only way to get through it. Aaron Ng (48:47.117) Wow. And then you had really good communication with the customers. Communicating with the customers, communicating with the subbies and not screwing them around either. You know, they would rock up to other jobs and the supervisor would say, it's ready, it's ready. But he hasn't been there for two weeks. So he didn't realize that the roof wasn't on. So it wasn't ready to put windows in or whatever it was. So we were making sure we were sharing the load a bit. know, he would go, Zach would go some jobs. would help him out here and there, go to other jobs and And it was just a matter of getting those purchase orders to them in a timely manner so that they knew what was coming and making sure that our job was ready and we were organized because if we weren't ready, we were waiting another month, two months before they come back. Bloody hell. So it was just a matter of making sure everything was rolling smoothly as smooth as it could then. And then we got a good name for ourselves. like, know, Zach's great at building relationships and he was able to build the relationships with them. and they knew if they came to work for us, you know, they wouldn't be given a hard time. The job would be ready and we'd pay them. So we were able to keep a lot of those subbies going. We paying a lot more money than we should have, but it just meant the job was done and we're able to still get some profit out of it at the end. Because the longer you wait, the more the price went up. And yeah, was just a very tough period. I don't know what else to say, Tom, but you are like, love chatting to you, mate. You are one of the most logical builders we've ever had on here. Like the way you just explained what you did. We've had so many on here and they couldn't really explain what they did. No, don't worry. Don't worry. You can do whatever you want. Thomas. Cool, mate. But you, you know, like not many builders could explain what they did and not many builders talk about, and we've been talking about it lately. And you were doing it years before we've even talked about it. So I'm not trying to take any shine off what you just said, Tom. I'm actually freaking agreeing with and love what you did, man. Getting jobs done. Um, you know, not as quick as possible, but getting them off, getting them out. So you get paid and you're not dragging them on because all of that is overheads. Isn't it? When, when a site is not, when there, nothing's happening on site, you're accruing costs and you're not getting paid. So that's how you. Aaron Ng (51:07.337) It's so kind of logical. We haven't spoken, we speak to hundreds of builders and there hasn't been a builder that kind of did what you logically did. Yeah. We just saw that as the best path forward and you kind of just had to swallow your pride a little bit in, in accepting them and realizing they had the upper hand. Wow. And it was just a matter of getting them done. Yeah. No, mate. It's, it's fascinating. I love, I love the way you do things. I don't know this conversation. Seems like, you know, we talked in the beginning and you're like, as I don't have any formal education. I was like, cool. But as I'm talking to you, I'm like, you're smarter than any dude with any formal education. doesn't actually matter. Like the way you think about things, the logical ways you think about it. think it must be, I don't know what it is, all your experience because you've been on the tools and then on the other side, not many people can actually pull that together. And in the hardest industry, as we said, In the world, reckon that not many builders can pull that type of stuff together, mate. I reckon you're a weapon. Freaking cool. I just do what I think is the right thing. you know, I always just try to make sure it's the right thing by, by me and my family firstly, but also by the customer, by the sub staff. Um, love it. just the way you got to do it to stay in business. I still consider myself just a dumb chippy. I try just, try to look back on things and go, you know, you're not as dumb as those teachers told you. You're not, man. You're not, you're very logic. I know this sounds really interesting because of what you just said, but you remind me of Elon Musk and I'm not being a fuck with here. You honestly do man, because I used to, you you hear stuff about Elon Musk, right? And then you hear all the shit he's doing. And then I've seen him on podcasts. And I remember Joe Rogan asking him a question. I'm trying to be Joe Rogan, the Asian Joe Rogan or anything with a shaved head and tattoos. I'm not trying to be that. I'm, you know, but anyway, I watched his one with Joe Rogan and Joe Rogan, everyone's like, Whoa, man, you're so smart. How come you built that tunnel under LA? And he's like, well, cost too much and there's too much air traffic to fly over it. Aaron Ng (53:20.151) There's too much traffic to drive on it. So I went underneath the traffic and I was like, that's probably the most logical shit I've ever heard in my life, but everyone thinks he's a genius. And I'm not saying he isn't, but I think there is a power to the simplicity of thinking about things and, and, and just doing the logical thing. And I think that's what you did and maybe you got through it. And I'll tell you, I told you before that we had Avondale homes at the time when you were going through that, we were building a few homes out in the Lockyer Valley. You had an outstanding reputation, mate. We didn't, but you did because we were copying your Kentucky and all those sorts of things. Sorry, James was saying in the back, I'm not part of that business anymore, but we were doing all those things and you had a great reputation. So I think everything you did was make you handled at some of the best over that period for sure in that particular region. We didn't, you would have seen our stars by then. We're on the way out. anyway, the Lockyer Valley now you've you've you've owned it. You've been there a few years now. What's the plans? Tom? What are you what are you doing now, mate? How's business and what's the next challenge? Yeah, we're just we're so recently my wife joined the team. wow. So it was always so she's originally a hairdresser. And she just loves helping people. And she got into the social work. world where she was helping carers and doing life coaching in that sector and just people who were struggling, they're looking after family members and they just can't see light from dark. She was in that avenue helping them. But the business has grown and it's becoming a bit of a struggle in doing it all myself. So I started 25, said, Oh, how about you come on board? So she's come on board and, um, I always knew she'd be great at selling, um, from a hairdressing background. And, um, she's jumped into that side of things to help us help her out on that avenue. And she's just hit the ground running. Wow. just using the skills that she already has just. Just giving her shit. Giving a shit. Just listen. Yeah. Aaron Ng (55:44.706) Which you would do a lot as a hairdresser. Wow. That's fascinating, man. So very cool. So she's come in. So and it's been great. We've we've been through a lot as a team. And we've always grown from from our struggles. You sure have man. We we knew her coming into the business would just help us grow. So our plan is just maintain what we're doing with our growth as it comes. just keep helping, helping people build their dream home. That's, that's how well. Yeah, I love it. I think it's very cool that you've been able to bring your wife into the business as well. I think I'll work with my wife at the good builder. And if you can't work with your wife, I think that's weird. Most people say they can't, but I think it's weird. The other thing when I was at, um, and I don't mean to talk about GJs cause it's, this is about Stroud, but when I was there, um, at the salesperson was a, a max credit card sales lady that we met at North Lake shopping center. selling credit cards to people walking by because she was so lovely and warm and we were like, you would be fantastic. And she listened and I think it was year one or two. She beat everybody and we were just like, what the power of relationships, power of listening come from a different, perspective, which I think looking back on our little chat, Hey, Tom, I think you have your whole career, man. Like you've come from different perspectives and seeing things. and I think it just makes you a sort of stronger sort of person. now for a, for a builder that's kind of listening right now and they're struggling and maybe going through the business side of things. What would be some of your advice there, and I think you can be the best, the best guy with a hammer in your hand. You know, the most talented guy, but frame up. Aaron Ng (57:45.678) chippy, whatever, because most of us have that carpentry background. But just learn, if you're thinking about building, being a builder, you've already jumped into that game, really learning, quoting, estimating side of things. Don't just... guess your numbers and round it up. Just really understand everything that you need to build that project that you're on and get systems in place so that you can really make sure what you're quoting for that customer is going to be profitable at the end of it. And then learning how to look at your figures before the job starts, during the job and at the end of the job. And don't just look at your bank account, actually look at how each job is tracking really ask your account to teach you profit and loss and get your head around markup and margin and all that sort of stuff because being a builder is really being a business owner even though you might be the best framer in town when things get tough or if you haven't quoted that properly doesn't matter how good you are putting that frame up you're not gonna have any more frames So yeah, I think really knowing the numbers is probably my answer. You have just confirmed for me that you are one of the smartest builders in Australia. Hey, look, no, I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass and being a dickhead Tom. Like I love your answers. I've loved everything you've said. I think everything you're saying is so practical and you're living it and you've just done it. You know what I mean? We don't talk enough about this stuff. Like, yeah, you can, as a builder, you wear so many hats. You said that before the podcast. And you can kind of look at different things and go pull that level. That'll, that'll help the business. That'll help the business. That'll help the business. Better marketing will help the business. Hire a videographer. That's going to help your business. Isn't it Tom? But really, if you don't know your numbers, when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what else you do. You've got to make sure that you're profitable. And I think that's what you're preaching. And I think that's really cool, man. Like Aaron Ng (59:53.752) We don't talk enough about that and making money is not a dirty word and staying afloat is not a dirty word. Like I think we need to do more of that as an industry. need to educate ourselves more on that side of things. how did you do it? Tell me if you don't mind me asking, did you just, are you just normally a cure? seem like a normal, normally a curious, inquisitive type person. So did you watch YouTube videos or what? How did you freaking like get your head around that side of the business? Okay, cool. Thank you, mate. those two guys, they saw my potential and they gave me opportunity. And they taught me the basics. If AI like chat bots were, um, chat GPT and those things were around back then, probably would have been punching the keys and trying to really learn more. But it was more just, um, I think them giving me opportunity and get teaching me the basics and then just pondering on it a lot. think I'm just a bit of an internal thinker and, um, just long drives between sites and, and to the office. You know, um, I certainly thinking back now, I did listen to a lot of audio books and certainly tried to learn a bit through that and yeah did a lot of learnings through leadership and My wife's parents are both psychologists. I leant on them a bit as well. And they've, they've probably given me little pointers about leadership as well. love it. And, um, yeah, just, bits and pieces of that. But I think it really came down to those two gentlemen giving me a chance and just showing me the basics and me being able to build from there. Yeah. Oh, that's cool, mate. You have a real, you're a fascinating guy. You've got a fascinating story. Like the way you think about, yeah, but even the way you, you think about things like there's. Aaron Ng (01:01:48.354) We talked about what makes a good builder and all that sort of thing. And I've already. You know, said what I said earlier in the podcast, but even from that comment saying your story is a good builder. The more I get to know you, there's personal traits in you that make a good builder. And I think it's like when you say to somebody, how do you hire somebody? And everyone goes, you know, hire for. Hi for attitude and teach the skill. Not many people do it, but you've got that in you, you know, that whole attitude, that whole. Like listen to you. You're saying between long drives, you listen to audio books. You know, you continually learning, you continually bettering yourself. You're always going to be a good builder or you always be good at what you do. You're going to get to where you need to go. If you're that type of person, which is a headstart on other people, I think who want to become good at what they want to do. think it comes down to a bit of discipline. Discipline. And also something I left out is the team around you. So if you've got a good vibe yourself and you build a good culture, and then you can get people that follow that culture and they've got a similar vibe. And I'm just so blessed I have the best team and we have been the same team since we started Lockyer Valley. The only change is Jenna coming on board. But just. having that team that, you know, I was able to train them and mold them when we're at Brisbane West. And then when Jason and I sort of said, right, we're gonna split everyone up, I handpicked the people that I wanted and... just further developed our skills together. But if you've got that good team behind you, you've got a good culture within your team, then you can be the best person you can be and the best builder out there. I love it. And I think you do it, man. And it comes down to good leadership too. are some, everything that you've kind of said, like I'm sitting here, man, and everything that you've said in this podcast is like, I've been thinking about everything we've delivered over the last like 14, 16 months of the Good Builder. Aaron Ng (01:03:50.262) You've consolidated it in this podcast, honestly. And I'm not just fricking saying it. It's really interesting for me because, you know, we put out so much shit out there with the good builder that I'm like, how do we actually tell the story of all the little things that you need to do? How do you actually, what is the living case study? You're the living case study, man. It's so cool. It's freaking so cool talking to you. And I know why, the guys put you forward. I only have one more question for you. I'd love. come, you know, bring you back on Tom. And if you don't mind, I'd actually love to come out to one of your projects and do a bit of a video with you and show the show the world what you do, because I think you're a legend of a builder, mate. But it is our final question. And then you can't answer the fair bit. But in your eyes, what do you think makes a good builder? Tom? Yeah, all the things that I've said, like, you know, someone that is a good leader to begin with, I think that's probably the number one thing. just having the right values so that the people around you can see that and then want to be a part of that. Know your numbers. You got to know how to build a home, obviously. You might not be the best on the tools, but if you know how it all goes together, you got to know that. And that's probably the three things, leadership, know your numbers, and obviously know how to build better. I love it, This has been... I think one of our most practical podcasts for our community out there. Honestly, I think that if people can listen back to this, builders listen back to this, this is it. This is the good builder. This is how you do it. This is the experiences and things you've got to look at. Mate, this has been so cool. You've been able to do it in a way. I don't think many of our guests have been able to pull it together, which has been super cool. We're gonna have him back on. I hope you guys out there really loved this episode because I have me and I've just been sitting here enthralled and I'm like, I wish that someone else did this episode with you when I started Avondale homes. Probably would have been still doing that. Not sitting here with you, but I'm glad I am. I always want to be a builder, but I'm glad I am. Thank you so much for your time, Tom. That was fascinating, mate. You're an absolute legend. That was cool. That was it. That's it. But Tom, honestly, mate. Aaron Ng (01:06:13.41) That was me. I'm not, wasn't just like, will put all that out there. I won't cut anything, Tom. I promise you, mate. That was one of the fucking coolest steps.