Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E146: A Better Way To Battle Infertility Than IVF w/Dr Lauren Rubal

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E146: A Better Way To Battle Infertility Than IVF w/Dr Lauren Rubal · The Lila Rose Show

0:00
I am an OBGYN and I'm also a reproductive endocrinologist.
0:03
I was overseeing IVFI, was helping couples with all types
0:07
of fertility treatments. Ultimately, I felt like there
0:10
was an alternative that I just didn't know enough about and I
0:14
found that through restorative reproductive medicine with there
0:17
are studies looking at her person IVF cost for a successful
0:23
live birth. In fact, it's about $62,000.
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What would be the cost if the taxpayer funding was behind a
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more restorative approach that didn't involve all the ethical
0:34
issues of IVF Doctor Phil? Boyle published a paper
0:37
regarding this and showed the cost was much less than 3 to
0:41
$5000 per person. Huge difference in numbers.
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And so I would say there are three main issues with IVF.
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Government mandated coverage. One medical issues.
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Number 2 is the financial and #3 is the moral.
0:55
Hello, everybody, welcome back to Lila Rose podcast.
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All right, so recently some of you may have heard there was a
1:00
big announcement from the Trump campaign saying that they wanted
1:04
to make a public policy to make IVF tax funded or force
1:10
insurance companies to cover IVF.
1:13
You probably saw this, so this episode is going to.
1:15
Unpack this new public policy. Put forward by the Trump fans
1:18
ticket and we're actually going to have on my dear friend Doctor
1:21
Lauren Rubal, who is a former IVF practitioner and an expert
1:25
on all things women's. Health.
1:26
But let's start with this clip. From President Trump talking
1:29
about how he wants to make IVF free for everyone.
1:33
I'm announcing today in a major statement that under the Trump
1:37
administration, your government will pay for or your insurance
1:41
company will be mandated to pay for all costs associated with
1:48
IVF treatment, fertilization for women, IVF treatment, because we
1:56
want more babies, to put it very.
1:58
Nicely. And for this same reason, we
2:02
will also allow new parents to deduct major newborn expenses
2:07
from their taxes. Lauren Rubal, thanks for being
2:12
on here again. Absolutely.
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You're the best. You're the best.
2:15
You're of repeat and people love you.
2:16
So I think your voice is so essential right now because
2:20
there's a lot of debate and controversy around IVF.
2:23
And there's many people who are pro-life who have a lot of
2:26
sympathy for IVF because it is bringing new lives into the
2:30
world. And so like, President Trump is
2:31
presenting this as a pro-life policy.
2:34
But I want us to unpack what this really would look like if
2:37
the government was actually paying for IVF and then some of
2:40
the challenges that people need to know about IVF.
2:43
Yes. Absolutely.
2:44
I mean, I think First off, always, I feel like I say this
2:47
again and again, but there are two points that are essential
2:50
and needs to be said at the top #1 couples with infertility with
2:55
recurrent losses are suffering. And that is something that we
2:59
all absolutely empathize with, myself included.
3:03
That was my mission is to help these couples amongst other
3:06
people, achieve Wellness healing.
3:10
I think that's the first point. The second point is that
3:12
children are always a gift and always to be treasured and that
3:16
doesn't matter how they're conceived.
3:19
So all that being said, I mean, I think that the Trump position
3:23
was quite interesting. I mean, I wish he had
3:25
substituted the word IVF coverage with fertility
3:30
assistance. And so I think that that to me
3:33
would be more along the lines of trying to get to the root cause
3:38
of what is going on as opposed to this blanket statement of
3:42
this very aggressive procedure that has multiple issues.
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And so I would say there are three main issues with insurance
3:50
mandated coverage or government mandated coverage.
3:53
Number one is the medical issues.
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Number 2 is the financial and #3 is the moral.
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OK. So we're going to unpack that.
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But first, for folks who are not familiar with your story yet,
4:04
can you just hear briefly about your background?
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Because it is, again, I think your voice is uniquely necessary
4:10
right now in this conversation. So what's the background of
4:13
Lauren Ruble and how did you get the perspective that you have on
4:17
IVF? Yes.
4:18
So I am an OBGYN. So I trained as an OBGYN and I'm
4:22
also a reproductive endocrinologist.
4:23
So that means I did a three-year fellowship to help women in
4:28
couples with infertility as well as like again hormone
4:32
imbalances. And not only that I practiced as
4:35
a full scope REI. And So what that means is I was
4:38
doing IVFI, was overseeing IVFI, was helping couples with all
4:43
types of fertility treatments, including IVF for years.
4:47
And so I was involved on the front lines of it's kind of the
4:54
granular level to which all of these politicians are talking on
4:58
a very macro way. I was right there in front of
5:00
patients and having to have very hard conversations with them.
5:04
Ultimately, for many different reasons, I felt like there was
5:10
an alternative that I just didn't know enough about.
5:14
And I'm glad to say that I found it.
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And I found that through my additional fellowship and
5:18
integrative medicine, as well as my discovering restorative
5:24
reproductive medicine, which again seeks to identify and heal
5:27
those root causes of what is affecting our fertility.
5:32
And so that was life changing. So why do you think President
5:37
Trump didn't say, OK, we're going to do, if we're going to
5:40
do something tax funded, we're going to do tax funded fertility
5:44
treatments that are more holistic, that are identifying
5:46
root causes, that are using more ethical means.
5:48
We'll get into that more in a moment.
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But why do you think that wasn't the public policy suggestion of
5:53
the Trump campaign? I'm not really quite sure, Lila,
5:56
to be honest with you. I would say that perhaps it
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stems from a misunderstanding of what IVF is, as well as a
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glossing over of what it purports to do.
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I think that this speaks to the fact that many of many people
6:12
feel that IVF can achieve 80 to 100% live birth rates.
6:19
That which is false, it is nowhere close to that.
6:22
It's less than 50% live birth rates.
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I think that people don't understand that there are risks
6:27
involved for everyone, for moms, for children, for the egg
6:33
donors, sperm donors, potentially, you know, there
6:36
there are ramifications of all of this and that is not really
6:40
discussed or talked about. And so I think it stems perhaps
6:43
from a misunderstanding of what IVF is and what alternatives
6:47
there are that are just as effective.
6:50
You shared before on the show about how you had done this.
6:54
You're an OBGYN. You've gone through, you know,
6:57
years of education. You're practicing to help
6:59
couples achieve fertility and to have healthy fertility.
7:03
You're discovering you know the best practices that you can in
7:06
this pursuit of helping couples. And yet.
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Throughout that whole time, the best answer that you were given
7:12
was IVF, and then later on you discover though, there's a whole
7:15
other field of medicine that can achieve pregnancy naturally and
7:18
help couples naturally. Yes.
7:20
And so it's restorative reproductive medicine, which was
7:23
again, a revelation. And I think it's interesting
7:28
because I think I may not be alone here and feeling a little
7:33
blindsided when I discovered all of this.
7:35
I think all of us in this decade with something have felt that
7:41
our worldview may not have been complete in many ways.
7:45
And that's exactly how I felt when I realized that the
7:51
sensation that that feeling that I was not really, and I've
7:56
spoken about this before, that I was just really not addressing
8:02
what someone was dealing with. And maybe that will have
8:04
ramifications for the again, the mother, the child as they go
8:07
through that pregnancy. That was validated when I
8:10
realized how much the more there is to uncover and unpack and to
8:15
help women with and help them feel better with.
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link hallow.com/lila. All right, So what would it look
9:09
like if IVF were tax funded? Can you help us?
9:13
Theorize a little bit about what a system would look like the
9:16
healthcare system would look like if everybody's IVF was
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suddenly paid for. Well, it's interesting, Lila.
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There is a lot of variation from state to state currently.
9:24
And so there are states that do provide insurance mandated
9:29
coverage. And so that is about 20 states
9:32
that have some iteration of this ranging from full IVF and
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fertility preservation coverage. By the way, fertility
9:40
preservation and refers to those people who are for whatever
9:46
reason undergoing a treatment that may be what we call
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canatotoxic, which is just a fancy way of saying that they in
9:52
undergoing that treatment, they will lose potentially all of the
9:57
all of their eggs, all of their sperm.
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So the classic example of this is someone who has cancer, who
10:03
may be undergoing chemotherapy or radiation, which has known
10:07
risks of damage to our eggs and our sperm, OK.
10:11
And so anyway, 20 states have some form of coverage for these
10:15
already. And so there is significant
10:19
variance there. There's also variance between
10:22
which insurance plans offer coverage and the extent of
10:27
coverage as well. And so going back to your
10:30
question of what that would look like if there was a mandate, I
10:33
mean, I think that we have to look at the numbers.
10:37
What do I mean by that? There are studies looking at the
10:42
per person cost, IVF cost for a successful live birth and guess
10:51
what how much that is? In fact, it's about $62,000 for
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a successful to have a baby. OK, that can go up to 72,000 on
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average when we think about using an egg donor.
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So a woman who donates her eggs to help achieve that pregnancy.
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And if you look at it just based on the per person cost for IVF,
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the median per person IVF cost is anywhere from 24,000 if
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you're using your own eggs to about 32,000 for an egg donor.
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So it is a significant amount of money that we're potentially
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having to figure out coverage for.
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What would be the cost if the focus the the taxpayer funding
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was behind a more restorative approach that didn't involve all
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the ethical issues of IVF? What are we looking at per
11:41
person? So Doctor Phil Boyle of Ireland,
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who is a restorative reproductive medicine physician
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trained in neo fertility, he actually published a paper
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regarding this and showed that compared to IVF in that
11:55
healthcare system, the cost savings was significantly less
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and in fact was much less than 3 to $5000 per person.
12:04
Huge difference in numbers when again we consider at least in
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the US that cost on a per IVF cycle basis is anywhere from 15
12:12
to $30,000 and it takes on average at least choose IVF
12:18
cycles to achieve a baby. So wait, if I'm understanding
12:21
this correctly, we're talking for a restorative approach which
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doesn't involve creating babies in test tubes, It involves more
12:27
a natural working with one's body to understand the
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underlying conditions you may have with infertility etcetera.
12:32
Right? You're saying it's 3 to $5000
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average for that approach to be used, as opposed to IVF which is
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2 cycles OF30K, potentially 60K plus.
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Yes. It's incredible.
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So what is the what are the key differences between the
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restorative approach for treating infertility and the IVF
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approach? Yes, absolutely.
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So I would say that what is each comprised of is the first
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question. And so restorative seeks to
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again look at what can be optimized.
13:08
We know there are a lot of organs involved when we think
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about fertility, OK. And if we even kind of specified
13:15
to the reproductive organs, that's still the ovary, the eggs
13:19
being released, the number of eggs, the tubes, the uterus, the
13:23
endometrium, the sperm. And then we have to take that
13:28
out on a broader scale and think about that woman's other
13:30
underlying health conditions, inflammation, endometriosis, OK?
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So there are a lot of areas where we can make a difference
13:39
and take a look at to make sure that each of those parts are
13:43
optimized, OK. And so that's what restorative
13:45
reproductive medicine does. It relies upon the signs that a
13:48
woman has when she's releasing hormones and ways that we can
13:52
interpret those signs. That's called fertility
13:54
awareness based markers or FABMS.
13:58
It also relies upon again seeking out diagnosis that very
14:03
commonly in a conventional REI practice are lumped under the
14:06
term unexplained infertility. And so I think the classic
14:10
example here is something called endometriosis.
14:14
This is a condition that is very common.
14:17
It affects about 10% of women. I'm so worldwide that's 190
14:22
million women who are dealing with this.
14:25
And unfortunately 30 to 50% of women with endometriosis will
14:28
have infertility and vice versa, 30 to 50% of women with
14:32
infertility may have endometriosis.
14:33
So that one, the current REI thinking with that is typically
14:41
let's just move forward and be more aggressive and do IVF and
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it's a numbers game trying to get number of embryos and that
14:48
will yield a higher chance of pregnancy.
14:51
The restorative approach would seek to identify and remove
14:56
endometriosis with for example, surgery.
14:58
Contrast that to IVF and its approach against that, where
15:04
there is still obviously a work up done to look up the causes
15:08
for why someone's dealing with infertility.
15:10
However, like I said to you, the amount of diagnosis of
15:15
unexplained infertility is so much higher with the
15:19
conventional REI approach. They've done studies looking at
15:22
this. In fact, we know that people
15:24
undergoing IVF 11% of the time, based on the 2021 CDC data of
15:29
all US clinics, 11% of the time we're going to get a diagnosis
15:33
of unexplained. What that means is they're
15:34
releasing eggs, they have at least a tube open, they have
15:38
normal sperm, OK. And so there's also an
15:42
additional about 24% of people undergoing IVF that have an
15:47
other factor cause for their infertility.
15:49
So not really clear, right? When they've looked at this data
15:55
amongst women who are undergoing Napro technology, which is a
15:59
type of restorative reproductive medicine, what they find is that
16:02
out of the 50% of patients that present with a prior unexplained
16:06
fertility diagnosis, it goes down to less than 1% after they
16:11
do their evaluation. Wow, yes.
16:14
That's insane. Yes.
16:16
So they figure out why they're struggling with infertility and
16:18
then they can actually treat it as opposed to many people
16:21
seeking IVF. They don't.
16:23
They just, they just say, oh, it's inexplicable, inexplicable.
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So what is the what's the breakdown?
17:39
Give us the run through again. We've talked about this before
17:41
in the show. You've helped educate, you know
17:43
us before, but let's just run through it again so people know
17:46
what we're talking about. When, you know, President Trump
17:49
is saying we're going to pay for IVF.
17:51
What exactly is going into that $60,000 So.
17:55
In terms of the IVF process in general, what goes into it is in
17:59
in general, a woman will receive many different medications, many
18:04
times injections in order to cause a lot of the eggs in her
18:08
fall in her ovaries to become mature.
18:12
And she'll be on them for a couple of weeks.
18:15
And then at a time when many are deemed mature after multiple
18:18
ultrasounds monitoring their growth, she'll undergo a process
18:22
called an egg retrieval. She'll typically be in a
18:25
twilight sleep, so it's you'll have medicines through an IV so
18:29
she won't feel any pain or remember what happens.
18:33
But during the course of that egg retrieval or egg harvesting,
18:37
A physician will watch under ultrasound guidance as a
18:40
needle's placed into the ovaries to suction out all of those
18:44
eggs. And so then the eggs are handed
18:47
over to an embryologist who then takes over.
18:51
Really the next steps in the sense that they monitor the
18:54
eggs, they see which ones are mature, they fertilize, They try
18:57
to fertilize them with sperm, either through a process where
19:01
they put an egg in a dish full of sperm or they physically
19:04
place the sperm into the egg. And then they continue
19:07
monitoring over the next few days as they watch whether that
19:10
egg does indeed fertilize, thereby becoming an embryo.
19:13
And then from there, they see if the embryo continues growing,
19:17
they may do different procedures like take a biopsy from that
19:21
embryo, They freeze that embryo and then eventually may transfer
19:27
back that embryo into the woman's uterus.
19:29
Another at least another three to five days later, and
19:32
potentially many a long time later if that embryo has been
19:35
frozen and thawed. So how many embryos are
19:38
typically created on average in a in an IVF cycle?
19:42
So it varies based on the diagnosis.
19:44
So in a what we would call what a good prognosis patient, that
19:48
means someone who is young who who we think has a normal or
19:53
high number of eggs. Typically if we get about 20
19:58
eggs, let's say 15 are mature. And out of those about 80%
20:02
chance of fertilization. So let's say about 12 embryos
20:05
that are created and out of those about half on average will
20:10
make it too mature stage which is called blastocyst stage which
20:14
occurs on day five of of its life.
20:16
OK. So you go from 12:00 to 6:00.
20:19
So six are basically a very early effectively miscarriage,
20:23
right? Because they're they're embryos,
20:25
but they don't keep growing. Yeah, they die.
20:28
They die. So then what happens to those
20:30
six? Because usually this couples
20:32
coming in there for one maybe 2 babies Max.
20:35
So yes, it varies, right. But what would happen is that
20:39
it's very unlikely anyone would transfer all six.
20:42
I would say that that is exceedingly unlikely.
20:44
And so therefore what would happen at that point is either
20:46
they'd be the embryo be biopsied and the cells that are biopsied
20:50
we get sent off for chromosome screening as I know we've
20:54
discussed in the past and or one or two of those embryos we get
21:02
transferred back into the uterus and so.
21:06
Are the others frozen typically? Other of us will be frozen.
21:09
Then what's so? Crazy is, we're talking about
21:11
these embryos, you know, the blastocyst, the embryo.
21:13
This is like, this is a unique individual human life with its
21:17
own genetic blueprint that is completely unique.
21:20
There's never been another child like him or her, and there never
21:25
will be another one. And they might just be
21:28
indefinitely frozen, or they might die, or they'll get
21:31
miscarried. And I think that's exactly
21:34
right. What you said is that this
21:36
embryo is a human being at his or her earliest stage of life.
21:41
And that is very true. Based on the science.
21:43
There is no question based on the science.
21:46
But we unfortunately it feels like have been a little bit
21:48
gaslighted because of the fact that they change the definition
21:55
of when new life begins from conception, when is
21:58
scientifically when that new life begins to implantation,
22:02
which is when that embryo attaches to the uterus about six
22:06
to seven days later after after conception.
22:10
We've been, you know, gaslighted about the fact that these
22:17
embryos, if just given a little bit of growth media completely
22:22
are rapidly dividing on their own, going from 1 cell to
22:26
hundreds of cells of the course of days.
22:29
And this is not just dividing with its own cell type.
22:32
This is creating new organs and and that is a sign of life.
22:37
So when when some of these babies are frozen, I've heard
22:41
the statistic we've talked about on the show, 1,000,000 babies on
22:44
US estimate and it's an estimate are frozen right now in the
22:48
United States, 1,000,000. Is that sound right?
22:51
It is, it's hard to, it's not very clear.
22:54
It's it's a little hard to obtain the data on this to be
22:57
honest with you, but that it's the, the reporting is such that
23:03
it's hard to determine it, it depends on what they're
23:05
reporting. And so there are a number of
23:07
embryos reported on the CDC nationwide data.
23:10
But again, are those just the mature embryos that made it?
23:13
Those are not actually the number of embryos that were
23:15
created, for example, OK. But yes, their estimate is that
23:18
there are at least a million embryos frozen currently,
23:20
correct? I mean, well, I want to get to
23:24
like thinking the thought experiment of this, this policy
23:26
went into effect what it would do.
23:28
But before that, there is a study, I think out of the UK and
23:33
I think you've done the analysis on the show before.
23:35
But again, most people, this is all new for the first time, but
23:39
it found that 93% of the babies that are conceived via IVF end
23:44
up dying. Could you share more about that
23:48
study? Yes.
23:49
And we can do that study even based on our U.S. data, right
23:52
And so we can extrapolate that data.
23:53
But essentially what what happens is that and it makes
23:57
sense with the example we just talked about, right, you saw
24:00
that attrition rate that happened from the 12 embryos
24:05
that we started with, with the potentially one to two that get
24:10
transferred ultimately, OK. And so at the same time to
24:15
reference that those numbers, the HFEA is the authority in the
24:21
UK and publishes its data. And specifically what that data
24:25
does is look at the number of embryos that are that have been
24:30
created and we can compare that to the number of live children
24:34
that are born. And if we look at that over
24:36
time, essentially you can see that for the vast majority of
24:41
these embryos of these humans, they are not born.
24:49
They're they're frozen or killed or they die, yes, by the
24:54
effectively an early miscarriage.
24:56
They are frozen indefinitely potentially they are killed if
25:01
they are deemed or in screened chromosomally abnormal or
25:05
anuploid OK. And so then they were discarded
25:08
or they're donated to research. And that may happen if the
25:13
couple has completed their their family and.
25:15
What happens to them in research?
25:17
I think it depends on the study. I know that there's a lot of
25:22
research looking at stem cell technologies that those
25:25
embryonic tissue is used for, so they're.
25:28
Killed, I mean, when your baby, if an embryo is donated to
25:32
research, effectively it's going to be human experimentation and
25:34
they're going to die, yes, they're they're not like going
25:37
to live after that. No.
25:39
So 93% of these human beings being brought into existence end
25:44
up dying before birth. So you have a 7% success rate.
25:48
It's $60,000 on average to achieve one live birth for IVF.
25:55
We were just talking about the the cold hard statistics here.
25:58
You said earlier it was maybe 3 to $5000 according to some
26:01
research from I think Ireland about how to do the restorative
26:06
medicine approach. What are the success rates
26:08
between restorative medicine, that approach for achieving a
26:12
pregnancy and a live birth versus IVF?
26:14
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We know based on again, nationwide data that the overall
27:24
live birth rate per intended retrieval for IVF all ages, all
27:28
comers is about 37%, OK. And so again.
27:33
What does that mean? So that means that if a woman
27:37
undergoes an IVF cycle, an intended retrieval.
27:42
So even if she, you know, if she just says I'm going to start an
27:45
IVF cycle, even if she doesn't make it to retrieval that 37% of
27:48
the time she will have a baby at the end of that.
27:50
Only 37% and but does that go up if she does another cycle?
27:55
So each cycle she's at 37% success rate.
27:57
It's complex because that intended retrieval might yield
28:01
multiple embryos, and so then you can, and then, so.
28:06
One part of the process is is done repeatedly and the first
28:09
part of just the initial creation of the embryos is done
28:12
and then you use from that crop of babies.
28:15
You continue to try to implant them is what you're saying?
28:17
Correct. And again, it with that being
28:20
said, it many times takes more than one of those cycles to
28:25
achieve a live birth. So that's not always the case.
28:28
So there was data again from the CDC that showed that on average
28:32
there are 12 egg retrievals that occur in women over 40.
28:38
So that's a huge number of egg retrievals that women's
28:41
undergoing. So that's the IVF data, OK.
28:44
The restorative reproductive medicine data is, is now
28:48
starting to really emerge and come out and being be published
28:52
in the literature. One study again by Doctor Boyle,
28:56
it was published in 2018, he looked at about 400 or so women
29:01
who were considered what we call poor prognosis.
29:04
What that means is that they were advanced maternal age.
29:07
I think their average age was 37.
29:09
They've been trying for five years.
29:11
They have five years of infertility.
29:14
About all of them had had prior IVF cycles.
29:20
Failure on that 5% of those women had achieved a live birth
29:25
through IVF in the past, only 5%.
29:27
But on average they had a prior 2 IVF cycles ranging from 1:00
29:32
to 9:00 prior. So wait, the 5% had the average
29:35
of two cycles or all 400 women had the average of 2 cycles?
29:39
The average prior number of IVF cycles that they had undergone
29:43
was 2. Of all 400 women.
29:45
Yes, out of that cohort. And only 5% of them actually got
29:50
a baby. Yes, a live baby that was born
29:53
at the end. That's right.
29:54
And so it's poor prognosis. Yeah.
29:55
So this is like the hardest cases.
29:57
Yes. And guess what Lila?
30:00
I mean, this is amazing what he was able to do using neo
30:03
fertility in this clinic. He was able to achieve a live
30:08
birth rate, a crude live birth rate of all comers, all ages,
30:12
all these women of 18%. But even when they adjusted, you
30:17
know, statistical analysis, it was overall about a 32% chance
30:21
of of live birth, which is remarkable.
30:25
OK, and this. As good as IVF or even better?
30:29
Because these are the ones that IVF didn't even work for them,
30:31
right? That's incredible.
30:33
I know, and this is data again, that I think we need to really
30:39
educate people about that there are methods.
30:42
I know, I mean, we all know people who struggle with
30:44
infertility. It's everywhere.
30:46
And I just think there's so many women who would be interested in
30:50
this if they could access it, But they think they are
30:54
accessing it because they go to the fertility specialist at, you
30:57
know, whatever their health insurance plan covers.
31:00
And you know, they end up being offered IVF, maybe at some point
31:02
if it's paid for, they can't do it because it's too expensive.
31:05
But I just think so many people, if they knew these numbers, they
31:09
would they would love to try the restorative approach.
31:13
Why are so few people able to even have the opportunity to sit
31:17
down with a restorative Dr. Well, I think it's a few issues.
31:21
The first issue is that there unfortunately aren't as many
31:24
restorative reproductive medicine doctors.
31:26
So I encourage everyone, if you're on the hunt and you're
31:28
saying I'm really interested in this, there is Irma, which is,
31:32
oh, excuse me, I think it's IIRMMA.
31:36
We can put in the show notes probably because I am sure I'm
31:40
butchering that. But there's a few organizations
31:44
of restorative reproductive medicine professionals worldwide
31:49
that people can go and look for, OK, first of all, but I think
31:52
that that number is growing and there's they're getting
31:55
organized and they're really starting again to publish, which
31:58
is so important to have this data so we can show that there
32:02
is benefit, that this is comparable.
32:04
OK, But a numbers problem is 1. The number 2 issue in my mind is
32:09
education for those of us in medicine.
32:13
Again, I can speak for myself. I had no idea about this.
32:18
There are other studies showing that only 4%, I believe, of
32:21
OBGYN's are aware about fertility awareness based
32:25
methods. And so there's a there's a huge
32:28
need for continued education of those who will be caring for
32:33
everyone else. I love the fact I love when my
32:36
patients are proactive and are educated and are coming to me
32:40
with information. And that's what I encourage
32:42
everyone to do, is to really bring this to your doctor's
32:47
attention and seek care elsewhere if you feel like
32:50
you're not being heard. Do you think part of the reason
32:53
for this is that there's not as much money to be made through
32:57
the restorative approach, that IVF is a growing industry and
33:02
like you said, $60,000 typically to achieve one live birth and
33:07
earlier 2 to $5000 for the restorative approach?
33:12
I have to say, Lila, the cynic in me, when Trump said that IVF
33:16
coverage, that was his, his goal was to mandate it.
33:19
I said, wow, I wonder what some of these centers are going to
33:25
think or how they feel about this in terms of the fact that,
33:29
yes, this is one of the last bastions that is not, you know,
33:36
regulated. That is cash pay in many ways.
33:39
And unfortunately, again, Big Pharma is real.
33:43
Big Fertility is real too. So if this were to go into
33:48
effect, this proposal, look at this logically, the restorative
33:51
approach is going to become even more difficult I think to find
33:54
because the money incentive will be 100% behind the IBF approach.
33:58
That industry will only grow. It's already unregulated.
34:01
And then people like you, you know, who are offering the
34:04
restorative approach, which is as successful if not better, and
34:07
without the ethical issues, what's going to happen to them?
34:11
No, I think, well, you know, I think that you're correct in
34:14
that there will be less attention paid to alternatives.
34:17
Of course, that makes sense because there's a free market.
34:20
And of course, you know, but I also think by virtue of there
34:23
being a free market, that people who practice restorative regret
34:26
to medicine will still be able to flourish because there is
34:28
such a huge demand. And I think that even, again,
34:31
this speaks to larger issues in healthcare and in medicine
34:34
overall, because it is very hard, even for myself, we've
34:39
spoken about this, just to be able to care for everyone, to be
34:42
able to provide this education and this help in a way that
34:48
allows, you know, as many people as possible to take advantage of
34:52
it. So it is hard.
34:54
Just a little peek into what your day-to-day looks like.
34:57
You are so busy, you have, there's too many people who need
35:01
you. And you know, I just feel for
35:04
the women out there who don't have and the men who don't have
35:07
access to this, this sort of approach because there's just a
35:11
lack of medical providers. Now, to your point, they
35:14
actually are out there. There's increasingly more of
35:16
them. You know, the restorative
35:18
approach is is growing, but it's still, it's completely dwarfed
35:23
by the IVF industry. Absolutely, but this, again,
35:26
that's where I would love to see policy go, is to really focus on
35:31
the coverage where everyone can have their fertility evaluated
35:35
and that will be covered by insurance companies.
35:38
I think that's important #1 #2 that there is coverage for these
35:43
alternatives, and that would be wonderful if we can somehow
35:48
really push for that. You've deep dive before in the
35:51
show what what it means, the restorative approach means.
35:55
And a lot of it from my understanding has to do with
35:58
behavior and choices that the patient's making on the
36:01
day-to-day basis for their health, their sleep, their
36:03
stress, their diet, even their exposure to I think the sunlight
36:07
or, you know, ready to do the red light therapy.
36:09
All of these things can impact hormones and health and the
36:12
things that can help optimize you or maybe prevent you from
36:16
being able to conceive. Do you think part of the kind of
36:20
American cultural problem may be that we want the quick fix, you
36:25
know, the drug, the IVF cycle, as opposed to really working
36:29
with our bodies to help them be healthier?
36:32
I think that of course, I mean as someone who I'm guilty of it
36:37
just like everyone else, right? Life feels so busy.
36:40
It is so much easier to do the quick fix always.
36:45
But I do believe that there needs to be a recognition that
36:50
there needs to be a seismic foundational change.
36:54
You know, again, another policy that's very interesting, that's
36:56
coming up and very well publicized this to make America
36:59
healthy again. And I am very much in favor of
37:03
that, that you're right, Lila, these easy quick fixes that
37:08
we've all become so accustomed to, be it fast foods or
37:10
processed foods or again, that even what's in our environments,
37:16
our our diets, absolutely. The fast-paced stress of our
37:20
lives and lack of sleep that goes with it.
37:21
I could go on and on. Lack of exercise, all of these
37:25
issues are not affecting not only our fertility, but our
37:29
overall health. And we see this with the rise in
37:35
cancers in certain age groups. It's interesting we see this
37:39
with the decline in sperm counts.
37:41
We see this with again, the less the lower birth rates and
37:46
increase infertility. So we're seeing on a big
37:48
population level. If you were advising the Trump
37:51
campaign on public policy, and the Democrats for that matter,
37:55
your general public policy recommendation when it comes to
37:59
addressing the crisis, the problem of infertility, what
38:02
would you recommend? I would say that we need to as a
38:07
whole. Again, I think it really boils
38:09
down to education. And so in many ways we need to
38:14
set our children up for success, first of all, by giving them the
38:20
tools to be able to make those healthier choices.
38:24
We need to make the healthier choices more economical and
38:27
affordable so that more people can actually access them.
38:33
What does that look like? I really do believe that
38:35
understanding our bodies better, number one, and working on
38:39
making foundational life choices, number 2 are so
38:42
important at creating an environment that fosters overall
38:45
Wellness as well as fertility because they really do go hand
38:50
in hand is the first point. The second point is patient
38:54
autonomy. Yes.
38:55
That instead of just saying we're going to mandate coverage
38:59
for this very specific and aggressive procedure that many
39:05
are going to have an issue with either morally, either
39:09
medically, either potentially financially, because there's no
39:13
way there's still going to be costs for patients that that
39:16
really does not a wise use of so much money when we have so many
39:24
other crises in our country that we're pouring money into.
39:28
And so I would say those two issues allowing patients to make
39:32
that healthy choice for their overall Wellness as well as
39:36
improving education, especially in the young so they can have
39:40
that throughout their lifetime. I mean, if it's going to be
39:43
$60,000 on average per person to do IVF and it's taxpayer funded,
39:48
just spend the three to five on the restorative medicine
39:50
approach, which is just as effective, if not more and has
39:53
more long term positive health outcomes.
39:55
And then take that other, you know, $55,000 and do a, you
40:00
know, a mega tax, you know, credit of some kind for families
40:04
so they can help, you know, invest in their kids and not
40:07
have to work as hard or whatever it is and spend more time with
40:09
their families. I mean, that seems like a much
40:10
more of you to spend that much money.
40:12
The government's going to spend that much money.
40:14
That's a much more pro family policy than this kind of wild
40:18
proposal. I mean, truly wild.
40:20
A lot of there's commentators saying that if this proposal
40:23
goes into effect, the deaths from.
40:26
Tax funded IVF are going to far exceed the deaths from abortion.
40:30
Absolutely. And again, it doesn't I Lila, at
40:34
the end of the day, it doesn't it's not well fleshed out,
40:38
right. And that was, I think JD Vance
40:40
was speaking to that there was pushback from a reporter about
40:44
how this would actually get rolled out.
40:46
And even that question of a national mandate versus states
40:50
deciding. And there's just so many layers
40:55
that that seem at odds with each other that I, it again, doesn't
41:00
seem like they've really thought all the way through about this.
41:04
All right, how can people find out more about their restorative
41:07
approach to fertility? There are different
41:09
organizations which are wonderful.
41:11
So Irma is international reproductive, sorry, restorative
41:16
reproductive medicine organization, a natural
41:19
womanhood I think does a great job at educating everyone.
41:23
Yes, they're wonderful. Facts About Fertility is one of
41:27
my loves and I think Fertility Science Institute also is
41:31
another great organization that tries to put out information
41:35
about this approach. I think it would be really
41:38
behoove whoever wins the White House to put together a task
41:41
force to address growing infertility problems and get
41:44
people like you in the expert seat.
41:47
And then maybe if we're going to put tax money behind anything,
41:51
incentivize more OBGY NS to understand this approach to
41:56
fertility to help make people be healthier.
42:00
Yes, education again, so key of all of us, including the medical
42:05
professionals. Lauren, you're the best.
42:07
Thank you for what you do. Seriously, it's a beacon of
42:09
light to so many people. No, thank you, Lila.
42:12
I feel you know, I feel the same way about you.
42:13
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