Latest / The Virtual Couch / Anxiety, Aging, and Emotional Autonomy: I Was "This Many Years Old" When I Learned My Parents Were Regular People

Transcript

Anxiety, Aging, and Emotional Autonomy: I Was "This Many Years Old" When I Learned My Parents Were Regular People · The Virtual Couch

0:00
So let me tell you one of the most incredible stories in the history of neuroscience.
0:05
And this is a story that completely changed how we understand the relationship
0:08
between our emotions and our ability to reason or to think about things logically.
0:13
So the year was 1848, and a gentleman
0:16
named Phineas Gage was a 25-year-old railroad construction foreman.
0:20
And Phineas was known for being level-headed and smart and really good at his job.
0:24
And he was working on the Rutland and Burlington Railroad in Vermont.
0:27
And his job was to use explosives to clear a path for new train tracks.
0:33
So part of Phineas' job involved using a large iron rod. It was a little longer
0:36
than a modern day baseball bat, maybe about three and a half feet long.
0:39
But this thing was heavy. It weighed about 13 and a half pounds.
0:43
And he used this rod to pack explosives into holes that were drilled into the
0:47
rocks. And this job required very good precision.
0:51
You had to be really good at what you did because you're working with explosives.
0:54
And well, explosives explode. But you would drill the hole.
0:57
You would add this blasting powder and then put sand and then
1:00
use the rod to pack it all down before somebody
1:03
else would insert think of like a candle wick you would
1:05
light it you would clear out you would run away and it would explode the rock
1:09
and you could eventually lay train tracks but on september 13th and yes i checked
1:13
september 13th in 1848 it was on a wednesday so no friday the 13th vibes here
1:18
but on that day something went really bad the rod struck a rock and it created
1:23
a spark, and the powder exploded.
1:25
And that iron rod shot straight through Gage's head like a rocket.
1:30
And it entered under his left cheekbone, and it exited through the top of his
1:34
skull. And this rod landed almost 100 feet away.
1:38
Now, here is where the story gets really incredible.
1:43
Phineas Gage survives. Now, not only did he survive, but he was absolutely conscious
1:47
he could speak within minutes of the accident, and even rode in an ox cart sitting
1:51
completely upright for about three quarters of a mile to go see a doctor.
1:55
And when the doctor arrived, Gage reportedly said, well, I think here's enough business for you.
2:00
So while Gage survived physically, his personality changed dramatically.
2:05
The once very responsible, socially adept foreman became, he became impulsive,
2:10
irritable, and he had a lot of difficulty planning anything in the future.
2:14
And his friends famously said that Gage was no longer Gage.
2:18
He then couldn't hold down a job, his social relationships suffered,
2:21
and his ability to make any kind of a sound decision was absolutely gone.
2:26
So this fascinating case gave us our first real glimpse into how different parts
2:31
of the brain control different aspects of our personality and our behavior.
2:35
And the rod had damaged his frontal lobe and specifically this area called this prefrontal cortex.
2:41
And this part of the brain, it kind of acts like this wise advisor to all of
2:45
our emotional responses.
2:46
And so without this, this area
2:48
functioning properly, his emotional responses, they had no checkpoint.
2:52
There was no voice of reason to say, hey, hang on a second, let's think this
2:55
through before you do something impulsive or you do something crazy.
2:59
So speaking of those emotional responses and then how our brains process them,
3:04
I received an email recently that I wanted to share with you that I think is
3:09
going to give us plenty to talk about today regarding our own behaviors,
3:13
our own impulses, and what to do when our own wise advisors or the wise advisors
3:18
of those around us, especially our loved ones seem to have maybe gone on an extended vacation.
3:24
So we're going to cover everything from anxiety, the need for control,
3:27
differentiation, and we don't even need a rod going through our head.
3:30
And I'll give you a little primer on how to tell the difference between dementia and Alzheimer's.
3:33
So we're going to talk about that and so much more coming up on today's episode of The Virtual Couch.
3:41
Music.
4:02
It's what it's all about. Hey everybody, welcome to episode 430 of The Virtual
4:07
Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
4:09
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified mindful habit coach,
4:12
and I would love it if you would follow me on social media.
4:16
On TikTok, it's at virtualcouch.
4:19
On Instagram, at virtual.couch. And on Facebook, Tony Overbay,
4:24
licensed marriage and family therapist.
4:26
And look out for the live question and answers that I do with my daughters,
4:31
Mackie, my daughter, Sydney.
4:32
We want your questions. We want your relationship questions,
4:35
your mental health questions.
4:36
You can send those to me at contact at TonyOverbay.com and we will address those
4:42
or catch us live. And that's the interaction.
4:45
It's one of my favorite times of the week when I get to go live with my daughters and answer questions.
4:50
But speaking of questions, I'm actually looking for your relationship questions,
4:55
your marriage questions, it can even be your parenting questions,
4:58
but send them to me at contact at TonyOverbay.com And I'm going to do some episodes
5:01
where I'll be answering your relationship questions very soon.
5:05
And if you missed the virtual couch or the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast last
5:10
week, I did a joint episode.
5:11
Please go give that episode a listen. It's called Navigating Societal Expectations,
5:16
Faith Crisis and Personal Growth, The Allegory Off the Beaten Path.
5:20
And I'm setting the stage with that for more episodes about people who are navigating
5:25
their own faith transitions, their own faith deconstructions.
5:27
And I would love your questions about that process as well, including people
5:31
who are in mixed-faith marriages.
5:33
So reach out to me there at contact at TonyOverbay.com. Let's get to today's
5:39
episode and this email that I mentioned earlier.
5:41
It's from a listener, and I think the email might seem a little bit simple on the surface,
5:46
but I get questions like this often, and I think it's going to give us a muse
5:51
or a base camp to operate from to talk about several things that I've been thinking a lot about lately.
5:57
So here is the email. Hi, Tony.
6:00
I wanted to ask your opinion about something that I've noticed with my father
6:05
that has me a bit puzzled.
6:06
He's now in his mid-60s, and I'm wondering if I'm starting to see early signs
6:10
of dementia, or is it something else?
6:12
And what do I need to do to keep my own sanity?
6:16
Over the past several months, he's developed an increasing need to arrive extremely
6:20
early to all kinds of events and activities.
6:22
For instance, when he comes to watch my son's games, he insists on getting there way before necessary.
6:28
And then the same thing if we're going to a restaurant or a movie, you name it.
6:39
And what's particularly noticeable is his growing anxiety around parking situations.
6:44
He wants to park what seems like as far from the entrance as possible and always
6:48
backs into spaces so he can, quote, get out quickly if needed.
6:51
And heaven forbid if I try to park close or I don't think to back in.
6:55
And he seems increasingly preoccupied with avoiding any type of crowd and always
7:00
having an escape route everywhere he goes.
7:03
It's like he's an ex-Navy SEAL who always has to be facing the door if we're inside any building.
7:08
And for the record, he was not a Navy SEAL unless he was one of those cool kinds
7:12
who pretended to be an insurance salesman during the day and maybe moonlighted as a SEAL.
7:21
But this is a far departure from how he used to be. And I'm wondering if this
7:25
is something that I should be concerned about or if it's just a normal part of the aging process.
7:30
Can you help me understand what might be behind these changes in his behavior?
7:34
And should I or can I even talk to him about it? Looking forward to your insights.
7:38
This is a great question.
7:40
And let's first talk about anxiety and let's break it down in a way that helps
7:44
us understand why it exists and how it's actually been trying to help us all along.
7:49
So think about anxiety like your body's built-in alarm system.
7:53
And it comes from a really interesting place in our history.
7:56
So when our ancestors lived in the wild, they needed a very quick warning system
8:00
that could spot danger and react fast.
8:02
So imagine you're a cave person and you hear a rustle in the bushes.
8:05
The ones who survived were the ones who were worried enough to check and see
8:08
if that was a saber-toothed tiger before they walked past this rustle in the grass.
8:13
But this alarm system operates in your body through something called the fight,
8:16
flight, or freeze response. and it's like you have a tiny smoke detector in
8:20
your brain, especially in this area called the amygdala, that's constantly scanning
8:23
for danger and it's not the one that you haven't replaced the battery on that
8:26
just chirps all the time.
8:27
Although that's not a bad analogy for people that really have high anxiety.
8:31
Maybe they do need to get that smoke alarm battery changed, but I definitely digress.
8:37
So when your amygdala, when it spots something concerning, then it floods your
8:41
body with stress hormones like adrenaline and cortisol.
8:44
And this is why anxiety can make your heart race and your palms sweat and your
8:47
breathing gets faster because your body is literally preparing you to fight or run away.
8:51
Here's where I think it gets interesting for your dad's situation.
8:55
In our ancient past, this whole system was mainly focused on immediate physical danger.
8:59
Predators, hostile tribes, dangerous weather. But as humans evolved and our
9:04
societies became more complex, our anxiety system started focusing on social danger too.
9:08
So instead of worrying about tigers, we start worrying about things like being
9:11
late, which can mean that we're gonna get kicked out of our group or being trapped in a crowd.
9:16
Which could mean danger, or not having an escape route, which could mean being
9:20
very vulnerable and open to attack.
9:24
The bigger problem, though, is this ancient alarm system has not quite caught
9:28
up with modern life because it's like having this super sensitive smoke detector
9:31
that goes off when you're just cooking toast.
9:33
And your dad's brain might be interpreting normal situations like parking lots
9:36
or crowds as potential threats.
9:39
And his anxiety system is trying to protect him by encouraging safety behaviors
9:43
like arriving early or ensuring exits.
9:45
But what's really fascinating is how anxiety has evolved over human history.
9:49
Back in the Stone Age, everything was like, is this a predator?
9:51
Then there was this time called the agricultural age where it was basically,
9:56
will we have enough food stored? Will we survive? Will we starve?
9:59
And then we hit the industrial age. Now when it was basically,
10:02
will I be able to keep my job and be able to put food on the table?
10:06
And here we are in the modern age and it's evolved or maybe devolved into,
10:11
am I going to be late? Will I find parking? What if I get stuck?
10:15
The irony is that our modern world is generally safer than it ever has been.
10:20
But our anxiety system seems to be working overtime because we have more time
10:25
to think about and anticipate problems.
10:27
We're not spending 16 hours in the fields harvesting crops all day and then
10:30
just physically exhausted and having to go to bed when it gets dark at 6 p.m.
10:34
We're exposed to way more information about potential dangers.
10:38
This is where I'll pull my old man card out and just say the words social media, anybody.
10:42
And then I guess I'm also going to yell at kids to get off my lawn.
10:46
And then we also live in a more complex social environment, social situations
10:50
in general, we have higher expectations for being able to control our environment,
10:54
especially we just live in this world of comparison.
10:57
We will see others and we will think that they have it all figured out.
11:00
They aren't having anxiety.
11:01
They don't have to worry about these things. And we go down the what is wrong
11:04
with me path, which again, nothing.
11:06
You're the first version of you that's ever walked the face of the earth,
11:09
experiencing things for the very first time. So check that out.
11:11
But here's where we go to the older crowd, and I am definitely on my way there.
11:16
For older adults like your dad, this anxiety system might become more sensitive
11:20
because life experience has taught them more about potential problems.
11:25
And we have a negativity bias in our brain to begin with, because go back and
11:29
look at the evolution of anxiety.
11:31
Because in olden days, and I remember hearing at a training once that imagine
11:37
you're a hunter-gatherer, we'll go with the hunter part, and you look out across
11:41
the plane and you see this, I don't know why I always go to an alpaca.
11:44
I don't even think I could point one out in a lineup.
11:46
But there's an alpaca, and if you get this thing, then you and your village
11:50
eat for a few days and everybody's happy.
11:53
But then you spot a tiger walking around by the alpaca.
11:56
You don't even risk it because if you run into that tiger, you could potentially
12:01
die. So you make one mistake and you're gone.
12:03
So we have this negativity bias. There's a wonderful book called Buddha's Brain
12:08
that says we react to negative experiences and we hang on to them like they're made of Velcro.
12:14
And the positive experiences are essentially like Teflon. We just send them
12:18
right through and we seem to hang on to the negative situations.
12:21
Older people, life experiences taught them about a lot more potential problems
12:26
and then they've hung on to a lot of those.
12:28
And instead of remembering that, okay, it's been how many times that we've been
12:32
able to make it fine out of a crowd or the parking situation hasn't been that bad.
12:36
You'll hear things of, you remember back in 72, when we were at that high school
12:41
basketball game and we were stuck in the crowd forever and the person got the
12:44
flat tire. I don't want to have any of that happening again.
12:47
Here we are, whatever, 50 years later, and we're remembering that one thing.
12:50
So I better, I better be safe.
12:52
And I think in general, as we get older, we start to feel more vulnerable than we used to.
12:58
And our nervous system starts to be more reactive to stress.
13:01
I think that's a big part of this as well.
13:03
And as a person who is starting to age, they are facing new challenges that
13:09
come with aging that you really couldn't imagine until you get there.
13:13
I really think that understanding anxiety, first of all, in this way,
13:17
hopefully helps you start to see that your dad's behavior isn't necessarily irrational.
13:23
It's this ancient protective system. And it's trying to keep him safe in a modern world.
13:29
And it's like having a dedicated, very dedicated, but maybe slightly outdated
13:34
security guard who's working really hard to protect him. I have to share this memory.
13:39
It makes me remember I unfortunately had a brother pass away when I was in my early 20s.
13:45
And he had been in the Navy. Not a Navy SEAL, as far as I know.
13:49
But when he passed, he had a military funeral and they said that there would be a 21-gun salute.
13:56
And I remember just thinking, wow, that'll be pretty impressive.
13:59
And we were so caught up in the day, the emotions. And then when it came time,
14:04
it's as if I would have turned in this scenario and expected to see this chiseled,
14:09
jawed, shining, uniformed.
14:12
Muscular, 21 people with a gun ready to do the 21-gun salute.
14:17
But instead it was three amazingly wonderful, dedicated, I'm so grateful that they took the time,
14:24
but very, very retired military people who then were going to shoot their weapons,
14:30
I guess, three times, seven, seven times each.
14:33
And they were all off in the shots. So it sounded like maybe being at a duck
14:38
hunt, but it gets the job done. But it wasn't exactly what I had anticipated.
14:44
But it really was an amazing memory, though.
14:48
But I picture that when you look at this security guard who has maybe seen some
14:53
better days, but you're so grateful that they are still willing to do the job.
14:57
So now let's talk about dementia and let's talk about Alzheimer's.
15:00
Because these are things that I am paying a lot of attention to the older that
15:04
I get, because I would rather not have either one of them.
15:07
So if something comes up in my newsfeed and it talks about dementia or Alzheimer's,
15:11
then I am quick to read about this. So that's why I love that this question had this aspect into it.
15:16
Let's break this down in a way that I think will help distinguish between these
15:20
conditions and then your dad's behavior.
15:23
So think of your brain like a really complex city. And normal aging is like
15:28
when some of the roads need some maintenance, and so traffic starts to move quite a bit slower.
15:32
But the city still functions fairly well.
15:35
This is more of what we're probably seeing with your dad's behavior,
15:38
that he's basically starting to add more traffic lights and more street signs
15:43
to his city so that he can keep everything running smoothly and safely.
15:47
But still moving along, but there's a lot more processes that are involved,
15:51
and it can slow things down a bit. And that's the normal aging process.
15:55
So dementia is like when there are multiple neighborhoods in that city and they
15:59
start having serious problems all at one time.
16:01
So it's not just one thing because dementia affects memory, decision making,
16:06
language and behavior in ways that will seriously impact your daily life.
16:10
So somebody with dementia might not just arrive early to events.
16:13
They might actually forget about the event entirely or they get lost on the
16:16
way to the event. or they might not even remember why they're going to this
16:21
one once they arrive or who they're there to see.
16:23
And then Alzheimer's is actually a very specific type of dementia.
16:28
If you've ever been to New York, it's how Brooklyn is a specific part of New York City.
16:33
It's the most common form and it accounts for somewhere between 16-80% of dementia cases.
16:39
Alzheimer's specifically though attacks memory and then it gradually affects other brain functions.
16:43
So somebody with Alzheimer's might not just forget again about an event,
16:46
they might eventually forget how to drive altogether.
16:48
Or they might not recognize familiar places or even family members.
16:52
It sounds like your dad's behavior is different because he's actually showing
16:56
overly careful planning and pretty consistent with his logic,
17:01
even though you may not agree with his logic.
17:03
So he's not necessarily forgetting things or getting confused, kind of the opposite.
17:08
He's actually thinking way ahead and maybe over problem solving,
17:12
even if he might be over planning quite a bit.
17:16
He's remembering the events, he's actually planning for them,
17:19
and then he is going to execute that plan successfully, whether you like it or not.
17:24
So that seems to indicate that all signs that his cognitive functions,
17:28
they're working, but with quite a bit more caution than before.
17:32
And so now we can talk. We've got the table set with anxiety.
17:35
We've kind of maybe ruled out Alzheimer's or dementia.
17:37
While his increased cautiousness and his planning are going to seem like a whole
17:41
lot, it's actually pretty normal when it comes to aging.
17:45
So it's more about his trying to adapt to what he's going through than necessarily
17:49
his deterioration or his cognitive of decline. And of course,
17:51
I don't know him, but this is what comes to mind.
17:53
But you can almost think of it as your dad is upgrading his safety features
17:57
rather than his system breaking down.
18:01
But again, without knowing your dad specifically, that's what I think may be happening.
18:06
But let's assign some meaning to it just so that we can talk more about some
18:09
of these concepts of the way that you show up different.
18:11
If we go with probably the most straightforward reason that I think is probably
18:15
going to sound maybe too general, is that your dad is just trying to feel safer.
18:19
You know, think about it like carrying an umbrella on a sunny day.
18:21
You probably won't need it, but having it makes you feel more prepared.
18:24
And you might know somebody that does, they're over, they're overprepared.
18:27
They, they're always asking if you need a toothpick or a Tums,
18:30
I don't know, but they've got stuff all the time.
18:33
When older folks do things like arriving really early or parking where they
18:37
can easily leave, they're creating their own safety net, like having a backup
18:41
plan that helps them feel more relaxed.
18:43
And in psychology, we call it the safety seeking behavior. But really,
18:47
it's just your dad's way of maybe trying to stay in his comfort zone.
18:51
Now, I've got three other thoughts, three other theories. I think they'll maybe
18:54
get a little bit more specific as we move along.
18:57
Because next up is something that we call environmental mastery.
19:00
But it's really just about feeling in control of your surroundings.
19:03
And if there's one thing the human brain really wants, well,
19:05
there's a couple. But certainty.
19:08
And we want to know, we want to know, we want to know what's going to happen.
19:10
And so we're going to overprepare because we're hoping that that will provide us with certainty.
19:15
Now, I think one of the greatest things that you can develop is a concept called
19:19
psychological flexibility.
19:20
Which means I'll go there, I will park and things will happen.
19:24
Some days I might have to sit in the car for a while and then that's my opportunity
19:28
to be incredibly present, have conversations with the people that I love.
19:31
Last night for example, I worked late, I was stopped by a Taco Bell,
19:34
I got pinned in in the drive-thru and we were not moving.
19:38
I pulled up my phone, I watched the end of a very good basketball game,
19:42
I watched a preview to help me understand what I need to know before going to
19:47
see a movie with my son Jake and his girlfriend Taylor. And I just thought this is happening.
19:51
And there were people you could tell that were getting agitated that were ahead of me in the line.
19:55
They continually just kept looking out their car window and you could tell that
19:58
they were getting frustrated or upset, but they were stuck.
20:02
And I just thought, man, bless their heart because that is a rough place to be.
20:06
And they had people in the car talk to the people. Everything can be this opportunity
20:10
for you to be very, very present.
20:12
So where was I with that? But this need for control, this need for certainty.
20:15
Maybe it is more about him feeling in control of his surroundings.
20:18
Some people need to have their desks organized, not me, but they need to just
20:21
before they can even work.
20:23
But your dad might just feel like life's getting a little bit more unpredictable.
20:26
So he's trying to take control of what he can manage and he's creating his own
20:29
home field advantage in public spaces by getting to places early and choosing
20:33
specific parking spots.
20:35
And that probably helps if he gets a little more exercise.
20:38
But then there's something that happens to all of us as we get older.
20:40
And this is where I think we're probably getting more toward if I really had
20:43
to guess, that our brains actually start processing things a little bit slower.
20:47
Like when you're using an older computer and it takes a little bit longer to
20:50
boot up or to open up programs.
20:52
So your dad might actually be noticing that he needs more time to take in his
20:56
surroundings or make decisions or react to unexpected situations.
21:00
And I think too often, we just don't know what we don't know about what it will
21:04
feel like to get into that position.
21:06
I've worked with several elderly clients and I remember one in particular that
21:10
she was starting to have some real memory issues. And we had really good rapport built.
21:15
And unfortunately, she has since passed. But amazing woman, RIP Vivian.
21:21
But I remember talking with her and she would get really frustrated and sad
21:25
about some memory issues.
21:26
And we had a great conversation one time where I said, oh, it's so easy for
21:30
me right now in the position I'm in to think, you know, when I get to that point,
21:35
then I hope I can just say, oh, okay, I forgot.
21:37
No big deal. And just use a little bit of self-deprecating humor and know that I'm trying my best.
21:43
And she was just so brilliant when she shared with me, she said,
21:46
you know, I can honestly say I used to think that. But she said it just happened
21:49
so gradually that you start just forgetting little bits of things here and there
21:54
until then you have some pretty big gaps in memory.
21:56
And she said at that point, it feels a little bit scary. And I remember just
22:00
being able to feel the, I don't want to say tension, but just feel it, feel that in the air.
22:06
And it was a real powerful moment because she was being incredibly vulnerable.
22:10
And here I was sharing what I knew was probably not something that was as easy
22:16
as I made it out to be in my mind.
22:18
And then her actually validating me and saying that she had actually felt that
22:22
way or thought that as well, but here she was in this position and that the
22:26
whole process of aging had just seems like it just came up on her.
22:30
Man, I'm glad I got to mention her in this episode. I think that it's difficult
22:34
to know what it will feel like when someone starts to feel like they have less
22:39
control or maybe their body is starting to betray them, their memory is starting to betray them.
22:44
That probably does feel scary. I don't know at times if the person is even willing
22:49
to acknowledge or admit that to themselves.
22:51
So they're just more reacting in that moment and trying to do whatever they
22:55
can to have control rather than being able to really sit with some discomfort
22:59
and then take that in and be okay with the uncomfortable.
23:03
Because at that point, you're going to have to give up a little bit of control.
23:06
The person in that situation might have to say, okay, I am going to acknowledge
23:09
that I do feel a lack of control and I am wanting certainty.
23:13
And so I'm going to have to hand the reins over to you.
23:17
And okay, we'll park closer. But if we get stuck in the parking lot, who knows?
23:22
Maybe now all of a sudden the person's worried about, and I'm not even trying
23:25
to make jokes, everything from bladder control, no anxiety, medications,
23:28
what if I don't eat my blood sugar?
23:30
So there could be a lot of things that are bubbling under the surface of why.
23:33
Somebody is on the outside talking about a certain behavior that they really need to have happen.
23:38
Maybe he's getting there early, gives himself plenty of time to buffer,
23:42
process everything without feeling rushed or pressured.
23:46
Finally, I think that there's increased anxiety if we stick in this realm about
23:50
things we can't control.
23:52
Because when we were younger, we tended to bounce back quickly from any kind
23:55
of unexpected situation.
23:57
But as we age, I think those surprises feel more overwhelming.
24:00
So your dad might be experiencing more of the what-if scenarios.
24:04
What if we can't find parking? What if it's too crowded? What if we need to
24:07
leap quickly? What if I do get a flat tire? What if there's an earthquake?
24:11
What if? Who knows? But by planning ahead and arriving early,
24:14
he's basically giving himself cushion against all those worries.
24:17
If you look at it that way, those behaviors are actually a little more common in older adults.
24:23
And so while they can be incredibly annoying, they may not necessarily be something
24:27
to burn as much emotional calories on for yourself.
24:30
So it might just be your dad's way of adapting to changes that he's experiencing
24:34
and trying to keep himself feeling secure and in control, yet while not necessarily
24:39
being willing or even very aware of how vulnerable he needs to be to be able
24:44
to express that to somebody.
24:46
The question I think that was asked was, what do I do about it?
24:49
Because that is the question. Let me just share some practical advice for anybody
24:53
that's dealing with this kind of situation to hopefully help you keep your peace of mind.
24:57
I'm going to go over some things that are going to sound overly simple.
25:00
Things like try to shift your perspective a bit. Maybe do a little reframing.
25:04
Instead of seeing this behavior as something to fix or to worry about,
25:07
see that, oh man, a little empathy here.
25:09
That would be difficult if that's where this person is and how they need to
25:12
show up in order to feel like they're okay.
25:13
Or maybe it's more about his way of trying to stay independent.
25:16
And I think when you can reframe things, sometimes it can become a little less frustrating.
25:22
For example, if he wants to leave super early for your son's game,
25:25
maybe you use that extra time for some one-on-one conversation.
25:28
It can actually turn into be a little bit of a special part of the outing.
25:31
And sometimes you have to be more intentional.
25:34
There are some journals or books that I've seen recently out that are interviews
25:38
of your elderly parents because they love doing a life review.
25:42
And you'll probably find out some things you didn't know. And it might be this
25:45
thing that you can now have that you can turn back to, heaven forbid,
25:50
down the road when maybe they aren't around.
25:53
You could also take a look at trying to meet him halfway. If he wants to arrive
25:56
an hour early to a restaurant, maybe suggest 30 minutes early instead.
26:00
That might sound something like, hey, dad, I know you like to get to these things
26:02
early. What if we aim for six instead of 530?
26:05
And that still gives us plenty of time to get settled. And this hopefully would
26:08
validate his need while keeping things reasonable or better for you.
26:12
I think it goes without saying that this may also be a pick your battles situation.
26:17
So if backing into parking spaces makes him feel more secure,
26:19
then is that actually worth challenging? and here's where I'll throw deep psychology
26:24
in or do you have a deep insecurity of backing into places?
26:27
If so, then hey, here's a chance for you to self-confront, grow or get a third-party add-on backup camera.
26:34
But now if he's insisting to get everywhere two hours early to everything,
26:38
that's when you might want to start having that gentle conversation about finding
26:41
a middle ground and we'll talk about boundaries here in a little bit.
26:43
But most importantly, I do think it is fair to say take care of yourself in
26:46
the process because I think it can be really exhausting if you feel like you
26:50
have to manage somebody else's anxiety, even when it's your dad.
26:54
And let's talk about boundaries. And I think it's so important anytime I can
26:58
to explain boundary versus an ultimatum.
27:01
So an ultimatum is, hey, I need you to know I have a life too.
27:05
And I can't just be getting everywhere an hour at a time. A lot of times people
27:09
think, see, I set a boundary. No, you gave an ultimatum.
27:12
And there's that wonderful psychological concept called psychological reactance
27:16
or the instant negative reaction of being told what to do.
27:19
So when someone is being told this is what they need to pay attention to,
27:22
we naturally say, I will not be paying attention to it.
27:25
It's basically when somebody is having a panic attack and the person near them
27:29
saying, you need to calm down.
27:31
It's like the brain is saying, that is exactly what I will not do.
27:34
It's why thought suppression doesn't work. Right now, no one,
27:37
no one at all, think of a koala bear wearing my, if you're watching on YouTube,
27:44
my virtual couch hat. Do not think about that.
27:46
And I would imagine everybody has thought about that now. It is a built-in defense mechanism.
27:51
When we are told what to do, we will think, I will do anything other than that.
27:55
I was speaking recently and I was talking about how immature this is.
27:59
And I gave an example where let's say that my dad was saying,
28:03
you know, you know what you need to do already.
28:05
My brain is one, not going to do it. That's immature. I'm going to own that.
28:09
But if he were to say, you know, you really need to get a handle on your finances
28:13
and really look at having a budget.
28:15
Now, even though I know that is absolutely correct, there is no part of me that
28:20
thinks that's a bad idea.
28:21
But what the psychological reactance does is it says, I will now create a narrative in my mind.
28:27
Like, well, you know, I've read that people that have budgets,
28:30
they actually don't live as long.
28:32
Now, I've actually not read that, but you can see where your immature brain
28:37
wants to do anything other than what somebody is saying, here's what you need to do.
28:42
So boundary is if you need to be there two hours early, then I'm not going to
28:47
be able to go because that's a me thing.
28:50
I'm able to take charge of what a boundary is. Now, boundary doesn't mean that
28:52
the person is going to say, OK, I really appreciate you holding a boundary.
28:56
No, usually they will try to push buttons to get you to give in and say,
29:01
OK, I guess I'll just go hitchhike.
29:03
There, I'll start walking now, I guess. I know it's only 110 degrees.
29:06
The buttons will be pushed to try to get you to step over across your boundary.
29:11
But boundaries actually start to help you feel more in control of your own life.
29:15
And it will pressure the relationship for growth. So if you are maintaining
29:20
your boundary, then you can say, well, you can wait for me.
29:23
I would love to go with you, but I'm going to be able to go an hour before instead of two.
29:28
Or, well, hey, here's a chance to learn Uber and I can take you home.
29:32
And then if he, I'm going to go to the yeah, but he's like, okay,
29:36
well, I've heard all kinds of bad stories about what happens when I'm in an Uber.
29:39
But I guess if you're willing to take that chance, because again,
29:42
pushing those boundaries to try to get you to relax your boundary.
29:45
Boundaries are always going to be tested. Then ultimatums are going to be very
29:48
intentionally disagreed with.
29:51
So boundaries are important. I want to acknowledge to the person who is asking
29:57
the question, remember the fact that you're dealing with this really thoughtfully
30:01
because you're asking questions because so many people would just shut down.
30:06
So just asking the questions, I really do think shows how much you care about
30:10
your dad's well-being and also in maintaining a good relationship with him,
30:15
which opens the door for something I love talking about as much as I can.
30:21
And that is the concept of differentiation.
30:24
And for differentiation, I turn to the work of a gentleman named David Schnarch
30:27
who talks about the concept of being differentiated or differentiation is people's
30:35
ability to balance humankind's two most fundamental drives,
30:38
our desire for attachment and connection on the one hand and our desire to be
30:42
an individual and direct the course of our own lives on the other.
30:45
And that part refers to the ability to hold onto yourself when important people
30:50
in your life pressure you to conform.
30:53
Differentiation, Schnarch says, yields emotional autonomy.
30:56
And that's the basis of a healthy interdependence and the foundation for real
31:00
intimacy and stability in long-term relationships.
31:03
So why I think understanding the concept of differentiation is so important
31:06
is you are trying to maintain a balance for attachment and connection with somebody you care about,
31:14
but also to hold on to your own sense of self, your own autonomy and well-being,
31:18
which is so important to have you feel like you're not betraying yourself.
31:23
This is a normal part of being a human being, and especially when you're in relationships.
31:28
And this is why earlier when I talked about it's difficult to feel like you
31:32
have to manage other people's anxiety, is that when people get angry and then
31:35
they basically diffuse their problem into the relationship, and they're saying,
31:41
all right, who will pick this up?
31:42
And I imagine you, the person asking the question, is the person that typically
31:46
feels like they have to pick up everybody's emotions, everybody's anxiety,
31:49
and they have to take it upon themselves and they have to solve it.
31:52
And they may do that and they may do that often, but that is emotionally exhausting.
31:57
Typically, that is the person who is more empathetic, who is more sensitive.
32:01
It's going to feel a lot bigger to feel like I have to manage my dad's emotions. I have to do everything.
32:06
I have to drop everything I'm doing in order to make it easier or better for
32:10
him, because if not, he'll get really angry.
32:12
But the fact that he gets really angry if I don't manage his emotions is because
32:16
that's his survival instinct on ways to get his needs met at the expense of
32:21
yours. And I don't think that that's some nefarious thing that he's been plotting to do.
32:25
It's just part of the relationship dynamic. And so now that you become aware
32:29
of it, now it's time to grow through the relationship.
32:32
So if you have stuck around this long, I think this is now the extra credit
32:36
section of the podcast because I want to go deeper into David Schnarch's four
32:42
points of balance for becoming a differentiated individual.
32:47
And this is, I think, what really will provide you with a very mature approach
32:51
to managing any kind of challenging family dynamic or relationships with friends, you name it.
32:56
So there's four points of balance. The first one, Schnarr says you have to have
32:59
a solid but flexible sense of self.
33:02
And what does that mean? It means that you know who you are without needing
33:06
somebody else to tell you.
33:08
It means that you are able to confront yourself to become a better person.
33:11
You are authentically yourself in the face of pressure from other people to
33:15
be something that you're not.
33:16
And you're learning how to validate yourself instead of relying on external validation.
33:20
Remember, the external validation is that if I'm frustrated or I don't feel
33:24
good about this situation, I need you.
33:26
I need somebody else. I need an external person or thing to make me feel better.
33:31
And so you can see that you're handing that power over to somebody else.
33:34
Now, what your dad to the person that wrote in, what your dad is doing is saying,
33:40
I don't feel good about this situation.
33:42
And so I need you to validate me. I mean, I need you to tell me that you are
33:47
fine doing all these things because that will, that will make me feel better.
33:50
But differentiation and why that we look at this as a, it's a mature way to
33:55
handle adult relationships is
33:58
because ultimately I'm going to learn about myself in this relationship.
34:01
And so the solid, flexible sense of self in this situation, what that's going
34:05
to mean, it means maintaining your own emotional stability when dealing with dad's behavior.
34:09
So for example, you might think, okay, I understand dad needs to get there early.
34:14
And while I don't share this need, I can stay calm about it without taking on
34:18
his anxiety. I have a solid.
34:21
The flexible sense of self, the flexible part is if I'm just saying I don't
34:24
want to do it because I just am being immature or I just don't want him to get
34:29
away with everything he wants, but really I'm fine getting there early.
34:32
I don't mind backing in to the spaces, then that's just a way that I'm just
34:36
getting rid of my discomfort, that I am just being immature.
34:40
This solid but flexible sense of self means I can listen to his concerns about
34:43
parking and timing and all those things without either dismissing what his experience
34:48
is or even absorbing all this as my own worries.
34:52
So I hear you. I hear you, dad.
34:54
So that second point of balance is called a quiet mind and a calm heart.
34:58
So that's the ability to self-regulate and self-soothe your anxiety,
35:03
your frustrations, your anger, fear, without expecting somebody else to do that.
35:09
And that's about staying level-headed. It's even if dad's anxiety is getting
35:13
really high, you know, it's rising because it's about getting somewhere on time,
35:18
which means extremely early.
35:19
And instead of getting frustrated or anxious yourself, you practice staying
35:24
centered and grounded with your thoughts.
35:26
Okay, dad's need to arrive early does not have to disturb my peace.
35:30
This comes with a free yoga mat and a ponytail and you go zen.
35:33
I can respond thoughtfully rather than react emotionally.
35:37
This might mean taking some deep breaths, swearing up your shoulders.
35:39
When he starts expressing worry about being late, even though you know we have
35:43
plenty of time, I have a quiet mind and a calm heart.
35:48
Which then leads to the third point of balance that Schnarch talks about,
35:52
this grounded responding, which means managing now your reactivity.
35:56
You're not going to overreact and get all upset and just get angry and frustrated
36:01
and shake your hands and just say, oh my gosh, this is just ridiculous.
36:04
But also not emotionally distancing yourself, not playing small,
36:10
whether that's nagging or stonewalling or paralysis or anything like that.
36:14
So this grounded response.
36:15
So once you know that you're okay, that solid and flexible sense of self,
36:18
I can quiet my own mind and calm my own heart.
36:21
Now I can respond and be grounded, which is such a mature adult response,
36:29
which is wild because at times this is where you might recognize that you now
36:33
are taking on almost the parental position on your own parents,
36:36
which is something that when you're younger, that just seems pretty bizarre, but that is part of life.
36:43
And so in this situation, grounded responding, this is where you respond to
36:46
dad's behavior based on your values,
36:48
your wisdom, not just reacting to his anxiety or his fear or his anger.
36:51
So you might even say something like, dad, I know you're worried about parking.
36:54
I've thought about this. And while I want to respect your need to arrive early,
36:57
I also need to balance this with my commitments.
37:00
So could we discuss maybe what a compromise would look like?
37:04
What would work for both of us?
37:05
So notice how this response acknowledges his concerns. I'm not trying to tell
37:08
him he's ridiculous or wrong or anything, but I'm also maintaining my own boundaries.
37:13
And then last but not least, the fourth point of balance, Schnarch calls it
37:17
meaningful endurance, which involves increasing your tolerance of pain for growth
37:21
because now you're operating out of the best of yourself. You're owning your own stuff.
37:25
You're not just projecting everything onto your dad in this situation.
37:28
Man, I'm so mad because he. No, if I'm mad, I got to take ownership of that. Man, I am mad.
37:33
And so I got to take ownership of that and then take responsibility for change.
37:39
Meaningful endurance. Growth comes from discomfort. So you put all these pieces
37:42
together and you can learn how to be more calm and grounded and present and validating,
37:49
even though you can still have all of your own thoughts and feelings and expectations.
37:54
And some of the tricky stuff too is, yes, it will feel at times like he is getting
37:58
away with something because if I need him to understand how frustrated I am,
38:03
that's my need for validation.
38:04
How about, I know, I know how frustrated I am. And so that's informing me that
38:08
I need to set a boundary or that's giving me a reason to work on something else
38:12
like staying grounded and trying to be more curious about his experience.
38:16
And then boy, talk about bonus, double bonus, triple bonus, extra credit of the podcast today.
38:20
I want to talk about a snarch concept that I am fascinated by right now.
38:25
And you can put it in any situation, not just what we're talking about now,
38:29
but he calls it constructing your crucible.
38:32
So let's say that you're continuing to express yourself and you feel good about
38:36
where you're coming from and dad is still just not having any of it,
38:39
not willing to budge at all.
38:41
Schnarch calls that gridlock. Both of you are pushing each other to meet and
38:45
accommodate your needs.
38:46
Nobody's budging. And it's a place where neither person can really validate
38:50
themselves because of these negative reactions from the other person.
38:54
So maybe you might even want to step out of the situation with your dad and
38:58
think about this with a spouse, with an adult child, with somebody that you
39:02
just feel like you're at a gridlock, you're stuck.
39:04
Well, Schnarch says you construct your crucible. What is a crucible?
39:08
So think of a crucible like a special container used in chemistry.
39:11
It's designed to take on, withstand really, really high heat and pressure.
39:16
And the material that you put in the crucible, they're going to change into something.
39:21
In this relationship with your dad, the crucible is the emotional and psychological
39:27
space where growth and transformation can happen, even though it's uncomfortable.
39:32
So there's going to be pressure.
39:33
There's going to be heat. You've got these components, these chemicals in this
39:37
crucible, this container.
39:39
And you're going to grow. You're going to change. Things are going to transform
39:43
and happen through this crucible.
39:47
What makes this situation with your dad a crucible? We can't easily escape it.
39:51
These are regular events. These are your son's sporting events.
39:54
These are family dinners.
39:55
And it involves your dad. And you
39:57
care about your dad or you wouldn't have written into a podcast person.
40:00
And then the behavior keeps happening. And so you really need to find a way
40:04
to deal with it. You are constructing this crucible.
40:07
And it creates pressure. your dad's anxiety about timing, your frustration with
40:12
his needs, the clash between different needs, his early arrival,
40:16
your schedule, the emotional tension that it creates.
40:18
These are other additional reasons why this is a crucible.
40:21
This is putting these situations into this container. And now what are we going
40:27
to create from it? What's going to come out of this?
40:29
And it forces growth, this whole situation. You can't just ignore it.
40:32
Simple solutions like, hey, dad, don't worry about it. Those things don't work.
40:37
And both people are most likely going to need to adapt. So it's going to push
40:40
you to develop new ways of handling stress and handling relationships.
40:44
So I hope you're catching this vibe. You can grow and make this a you thing in any situation.
40:50
With this specific situation, the crucible is created when dad wants to arrive
40:53
super early. You feel that's excessive.
40:56
Neither of you can just win. I'll throw some air quotes on there.
40:59
You both need to find a way through it. You have to stay in the relationship
41:02
while you're working it out.
41:04
So the Crucible comes so valuable because it forces you to develop better emotional
41:07
regulation. I'm going to learn how to do that quiet mind, calm heart thing.
41:11
Pushes you to communicate more clearly instead of just overreacting or playing small.
41:15
I need to learn to set boundaries. I need to learn to communicate like a mature human being.
41:19
In my other podcast, Waking Up to Narcissism, I talk so much about emotional immaturity.
41:24
And so when I get angry and I lash out or if somebody talking to somebody earlier
41:29
today and they punch a wall or they do something like that, that's like a little
41:32
kid. that's not a mature adult human being.
41:35
You're going to learn to become a more mature human being through this crucible
41:39
that you create because of this wonderful opportunity that your dad's given you.
41:44
And so it pushes you to communicate more clearly, helps you maintain boundaries,
41:48
and it challenges you to grow stronger rather than just trying to solve a problem
41:52
in the moment. No, we're playing the long game.
41:54
It's like a pressure cooker and the pressure is not comfortable and we are so
41:58
wired to avoid discomfort.
42:01
In my marriage course, my magnetic marriage course, I talk often about where
42:05
we're so afraid of things getting to a point of contention that we avoid tension altogether.
42:10
And I think this is similar. We want to alleviate our discomfort by getting
42:14
angry, withdrawing, but that is where the growth is.
42:17
The pressure is what causes transformation. But the key is learning to stay
42:22
in that pressure without either exploding, getting angry and reactive,
42:25
or escaping, always giving in to avoid conflict.
42:29
The crucible here isn't just about managing dad's early arrival anxiety. It's about you.
42:33
So using the situation as an opportunity for personal growth and then also relationship development.
42:39
So how do you approach it? We'll wrap it up.
42:42
Stay in the discomfort. Instead of avoiding the tension, like always giving
42:45
in, getting super early or escaping it, like letting dad go on alone,
42:49
you deliberately choose to stay present in these uncomfortable moments.
42:52
For example, if dad starts expressing anxiety about being late,
42:56
even though you're planning to arrive 30 minutes to an hour early,
42:58
rather than accommodating his or dismissing his concerns, then you might say,
43:02
I noticed this is uncomfortable for both of us.
43:05
So let's kind of sit with it for a minute. Let's talk about what's really going
43:08
on here. We also are going to face the core issues.
43:10
The crucible invites you to look below the surface, deeper than that surface level behavior.
43:15
It isn't just about arrival times. It might be about.
43:19
His growing awareness of his mortality, your shifting role from child to caregiver,
43:23
both of you dealing with the loss of control in all kinds of ways,
43:25
the challenge of maintaining autonomy while staying grounded.
43:29
And one of the benefits of this crucible is it creates growth-promoting tension.
43:33
Instead of problem-solving, you might say something, again, like,
43:35
Dad, I know you want me to arrive there an hour early with you,
43:37
and I want to honor my own needs about time management.
43:40
So that tension between us is uncomfortable, but maybe it's helping us both
43:44
grow. How can we both use this situation to understand each other better?
43:48
And one of the best things you can do is learn how to hold steady,
43:52
stay grounded through this whole process.
43:53
If dad says something like, you don't understand how important this is,
43:56
instead of defending yourself or giving in, you don't understand what I go through
43:59
on a day to deal with you, old man.
44:02
But you might respond instead with, you're right, I might not fully understand.
44:07
And I can guess that you might not fully understand where I'm coming from either, and that's okay.
44:11
But I'm willing to stay here in this discussion with you until we figure something
44:14
out that respects both of our needs.
44:16
And then use that pressure to promote growth. The crucible creates pressure
44:20
that can lead to new solutions. Things like, dad, the situation's challenging.
44:24
Instead of finding a quick fix, what if we use this as a chance to develop new
44:27
ways of handling different needs? We can even try multiple things.
44:29
We're both adult human beings and we can try. We can try to go a little bit earlier.
44:33
We can go different ways. If you want to try going on your own and I meet you
44:37
there, the thing is we can try all kinds of things because I'm willing to be
44:42
uncomfortable while we figure this out.
44:43
I think the final takeaway about creating the crucible not rushing to solutions.
44:48
Staying present with the difficulty. Use intention for growth instead of trying
44:50
to get rid of it. Work on yourself while in a relationship with your dad.
44:54
Find ways to maintain connection without fusion, without melding into each other,
44:58
without becoming enmeshed and grow your capacity to hold steady under pressure.
45:03
And this whole approach will turn a very simple conflict about arrival times.
45:08
Part of me wonders, are you still happy that you wrote in 45 minutes later into
45:13
an opportunity for both you and your dad to grow in your ability to handle anxiety,
45:17
respect differences, maintain independence, deal with change,
45:20
navigating parent-child relationships.
45:23
The Crucible is not about winning. It's not about getting your way.
45:26
It's about using relationships, natural tension to foster growth, deeper connections.
45:30
And that is the answer to how you handle your dad wanting to get there a little bit early.
45:39
Thank you so much for writing. If anybody else had thoughts,
45:44
questions similar to this listener, please write me at contact at TonyOverbay.com.
45:49
Feel free to share this podcast episode with anybody who you feel might benefit.
45:54
You can find the video of this on my YouTube channel.
45:57
Look for Virtual Couch on YouTube, and I'm sure there will be clips on Virtual
46:00
Couch on TikTok and Virtual.Couch on Instagram and YouTube shorts.
46:05
Thank you so much. I hope everybody has a wonderful week. I will see you next time.
46:08
Music.
48:10
Distance don't explode allow the understanding through to heal the legs and hearts you.
48:17
Music.