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Transcript

The Therapist's Guide to Strengthening Relationships Through Self-Discovery (Differentiation) and Connection (EFT/4 PIllars) · The Virtual Couch

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  Music.
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  Hey everybody, welcome to episode 418. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
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  I had somebody today ask me why I don't do the whole big old speech anymore,
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  and I think it just reigned its course.
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  But I am still a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified mindful
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  habit coach, a writer, speaker, husband, father of four, ultramarathon runner,
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  creator of the Pathback.
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  Okay, there's why I stopped doing that. That is a mouthful, but key is just
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  please sign up for my newsletter.
• 0:45
  Please and thank you. and I will fill in, you will find out all the wonderful
• 0:50
  things that are going on in the world of courses and podcasts and quotes.
• 0:54
  And maybe I want to find out some information from you, but that all happens on the newsletter.
• 0:59
  And while one announcement that I will make, and that is I did a sneak preview
• 1:06
  of a new, I will call it an affordable men's group call that I am naming the emotional architects.
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  And the goal is becoming a much better you we're talking
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  about emotional maturity emotional consistency how to sit with discomfort
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  how to free yourself from the constant need for validation how
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  to step into the concept that we truly just don't
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  know what we don't know and that is okay currently there
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  are two group calls a two group there are two group calls a month and then my
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  emotional architects will have access to the archive calls as well as to some
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  individualized questions and answers with me and my hope is to continue to build
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  and develop that group because I am absolutely a recovering,
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  emotionally immature person myself.
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  So all of the content in these calls will be from the very bottom of my heart, truly.
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  So if you're interested, please just reach out to me through my website.
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  TonyOverBay.com or email me at info at or contact at TonyOverBay.com.
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  Or you can message me through any of the social media accounts,
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  Instagram, Tony Overbay underscore LMFT, or on Facebook, find me at Tony Overbay
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  Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, or on TikTok at Virtual Couch.
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  So today, one of my favorite things to talk about, let's talk about relationships,
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  let's talk about couples.
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  And let's start this by me stepping into my healthy ego. ego.
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  And for anybody new, a healthy ego refers to, it's a balanced, it's a realistic.
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  So for anybody new, a healthy ego refers to a balanced and realistic self-esteem
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  that stems from your actual accomplishments.
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  And this is moving from, I had no idea, I didn't know what I didn't know, to now I know.
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  And now that I do know, I know that there's probably other things I don't know that I don't know.
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  And I also am able to admit and acknowledge the things that I don't.
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  Because part of the healthy ego is it's characterized by a stable self-image
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  that starts to incorporate your hard-earned success and overcoming real-life challenges.
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  And since it's based on genuine achievements, then a healthy ego remains resilient
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  despite any kind of minor setback or offense that are basically part of our journey here on life.
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  And because the healthy ego is based on genuine achievements,
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  it remains resilient even through minor setbacks or offenses that are just part of life's journey.
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  So if you have a healthy ego, this is when you will motivate yourself to prioritize your own well-being.
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  And it does start to sound like we're going to be selfish, but this is about self-care.
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  This is about making decisions that align with your genuine self-interest and
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  cultivate, and here's the kicker, an authentic self-respect.
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  I really believe a a healthy ego can be perceived as it's something that is
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  inside of us. It's an internal force within us. So.
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  We often think that self-care is selfish, or if I'm talking about my healthy
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  ego, that it sounds like I am being an egotistical maniac, but this is really
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  about that inside inner confidence based on real-life experience.
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  Now, it'll come into play today, the opposite, or the unhealthy ego,
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  or maybe more of a false self, the definition of that would be,
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  it's essentially kind of fake confidence, and it's when somebody appears really
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  confident, and they act like they are better than others,
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  But underneath that whole show, they're dealing with a lot of self-doubt.
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  And this facade, this disguise, it's really, it's a false self,
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  is not built on real achievements or success.
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  It's more about trying to convince others and yourself, quite frankly,
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  that you're special without the solid foundation to back it up.
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  And this is truly somebody doesn't know what they don't know.
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  And it really does become interesting that that is such a difficult thing for
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  people in general to get behind. mind.
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  So, when somebody says, hey, what do you think about whatever the topic is,
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  it's actually okay to say, oh, I really don't know, but tell me what you think.
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  Or if somebody says, well, what do you think is going to happen in a scenario
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  that you really don't know, then instead of saying, you know,
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  I really don't have an idea, I could venture a guess, but I really, I'm not really sure.
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  Because when somebody with this unhealthy ego or this false self,
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  when they face even a tiny bit of criticism, it's like their whole,
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  somebody burst their whole balloon. And that's because their sense of self is
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  so fragile that then just a minor challenge can start to feel like a huge threat.
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  And then that leads to that person starting to overcorrect on simple disagreements,
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  starting to see them as an attack.
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  And then now they got to go big and try to make you feel little or small.
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  And so then they will just lash out to protect their own shaky self-image or their own fragile ego.
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  And they're basically on constant guard trying to maintain this illusion of,
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  I got it all figured out, kind of being on top, because admitting vulnerability
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  feels too risky, if they're even aware of that.
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  So that unhealthy ego, it's like wearing an armor that is just for show,
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  that it looks really tough on the outside, but it doesn't actually protect the
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  vulnerable self that's hiding underneath it.
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  So it's more of a defense mechanism, but one that ultimately actually keeps
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  the person from building genuine self-esteem or genuine connection based on
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  real personal growth and achievements.
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  The reason I set the table with those, healthy ego and unhealthy ego...
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  I need to own the fact that we're going to talk about some things today with
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  regard to relationships that I truly did not know, that I didn't know,
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  even as I thought that I was figuring out this whole couples therapist gig many years ago.
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  So, there's a therapist that I really like, and he writes a lot about law and
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  ethics, and he has pre-licensing courses available.
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  His name's Ben Caldwell. I would say from a healthy ego, here's what he says
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  about couples counseling.
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  And it's this policy that all new and still many experienced couples therapists
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  operate from, and it's the no secrets policy.
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  So the couples therapist will say, hey, the relationship is the client,
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  not the individual. The relationship is the client.
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  So we need to do what's best for the relationship. So I need to keep a no secrets policy.
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  So if I get you in a one-on-one situation and you tell me a secret,
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  then I can't work with that.
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  So we're going to need to bring that out into the open because that's what's
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  best for the relationship.
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  Because Because it makes sense. I mean, Ben Caldwell says the problem with secrets,
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  keeping an individual secret is awkward at best, and it represents triangulation at worst.
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  Because now that there are two of you that know something that the other doesn't know.
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  And it's also really difficult on a practical level. Because he said,
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  once you start keeping individual confidences, then you have to remember what
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  information you learn from each partner that is expected to remain confidential.
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  And you have to keep track of that for every couple you see.
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  So he said for him, the concern about the clinical impact of secrets started
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  to take a backseat to the concern that I would simply screw it up,
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  that I wouldn't be able to remember it all, and an individual secret would spill out.
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  But he said over time, though, his philosophy on this has changed.
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  And he said, I'm not necessarily suggesting that yours should as well.
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  He said, we each need to find the secrets policy that works best for our practices,
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  but I hope that his own journey can be useful to know.
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  So he talked about withholding information. He said, when I had clients sign
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  a no secrets policy, they still had secrets.
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  Only now, in addition to keeping those secrets from each other,
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  they were also keeping those same secrets from me.
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  Anything that either partner might have been willing to tell me about in confidence
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  but not in front of their partner became something that I was never going to know.
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  So, for example, he said, despite strong research showing high prevalence of
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  violence among couples, very few ever reported a history of violence to me.
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  He said affairs, when finally revealed, blindsided me as well as the other partner.
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  And he said I kept starting therapy without critical information.
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  So he talked about having a different approach to couples therapy.
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  He said my policy now is more nuanced and it gives me more freedom of movement.
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  Now clients agree at the beginning of couples therapy that I have the right,
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  but not the obligation, to share anything that they share with me individually,
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  and I'm asking them to trust my clinical judgment about what I will and what I will not reveal.
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  He said, when I made that change, the couples I worked with immediately became
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  more honest with me at the assessment stage.
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  And he said, I learned about substance abuse, violent arguments and affairs
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  early on, often from individuals who wanted desperately for their partners to
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  know without blowing up the relationship.
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  Relationship. So with that knowledge in hand, he said, then I could work with
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  the person keeping the secret on how and when they should inform their partner
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  and what I could do to plan treatment in a way that could repair their bond.
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  So he says this newer policy asks more of me to be sure.
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  He said it requires me to own complete responsibility for the clinical decisions I make around secrets.
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  He said sometimes it means pretending not to know something that I'm aware of,
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  the very position that a no secrets policy is designed to help therapists avoid. void.
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  And it means that on rare occasions, I have indeed simply made a mistake and
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  revealed something before the person with the secret was ready.
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  But he said my treatment has also grown more successful precisely because I
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  now get critical information that needs to be part of the treatment planning.
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  It's really fascinating because I have felt this for so long as a couples therapist,
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  even to the point where I had already changed my own view on the no secrets
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  policy, but it was something that I felt that, oh my gosh, I can't even really talk about this.
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  But then over time, it just is the way that good couples therapy happens.
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  But you have to be the couples therapist that's in that position to know,
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  and you've got enough reps or enough time in the chair to know that those situations
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  occur and that that is part of your job.
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  That's what people are coming to you is to help navigate these difficult relationships,
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  which will play into what we're going to talk more and more about today. day.
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  But he said it led to new levels of respect. He said, one other thing changed that I didn't expect.
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  Clients respected me more. When I brought these decisions under the umbrella
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  of clinical judgment, rather than trying to address them through a blanket policy,
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  clients saw me as more professional, more willing to fully embrace the professional role I was already in.
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  So he said, the freedom of movement that some secrets policy provides made me
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  anxious at first, but also made me better.
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  And I think as a couples therapist, that theme alone is something that has become
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  become so powerful that even when you find a therapeutic modality that you love,
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  and even when you've got a lot of reps on the couch with a lot of couples,
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  but you still are a human being, and the more that you're doing your job,
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  and the more you're coming from that healthy ego,
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  because you can't learn certain things about being a couples therapist until
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  you've had a decade in the chair, or maybe you've been going through things
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  in your own relationship or marriage.
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  I love the fact that, of course, I'm going to continue to grow and to learn.
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  Because that is part of the human experience. And there are times when I will
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  see a couple in my office and one of the people in the relationship looks at
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  the other one and says, this is, you are not who I married 15 years ago.
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  And they look at me like they want me to back that up and say,
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  wait, what? This guy's changed?
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  Like, whoa, what is that all about? But the hope is that we get in relationships
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  to go through experiences together that are the first time that we've ever been
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  in those experiences as ourselves as individuals,
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  but now with another human being to interact with, the hope is that we can address
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  those attachment wounds, that we can also learn to become more interdependent,
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  learn to recognize what my own.
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  Interactions with others bring up for me.
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  And here's this person that I want to help help become the safest person that
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  you can have in order to process emotion with.
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  And that's one of the beauties of being in, and that's one of the most beautiful
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  things about being in a healthy, committed relationship,
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  is that you can slowly start to go through and experience life and process information
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  without being made to feel like you're doing it wrong, because you're actually
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  both just doing it for the first time.
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  But I digress. Let's get to the meat of today's podcast.
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  I was never going to be a couples therapist. Now, well over 1,500 couples into
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  this almost 20-year journey, I like it.
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  And from a healthy ego standpoint, I will say I'm good at what I do.
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  And my own approach, thank goodness, has changed. And I have changed as well
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  as I've learned more of what I didn't know that I didn't know.
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  And it's because of being in a relationship with somebody that I do care about
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  that I am able to do a lot of introspection, a lot of self-reflection.
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  Now, can that come on my own? Absolutely.
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  I'm on my own in that scenario. But if I'm interacting with another human and
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  I have somebody else that is having their own human experience and we can step
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  back and say, okay, hey, tell me what your thoughts are.
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  Or I've got somebody that I trust that's saying, I noticed this about you and help me understand.
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  Then I believe it makes sense that then it can help you become a better version of yourself.
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  Keeping in mind that it can also help you further solidify your knowledge of who you are.
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  So my own couples work came initially out of me feeling this call to work with
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  men and helping them, I initially thought, become better husbands and fathers,
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  but also having this experience where not a lot of men were coming to counseling.
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  And in my internship years, I was then tasked with helping people overcome addiction.
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  Or more, we understand now, people were turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms
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  when they were hungry, angry, lonely, tired, when they were bored.
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  And more specifically, I identified what I call these five voids,
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  that people turn to these unhealthy coping mechanisms like pornography,
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  food, work, gambling, their phones, drugs, alcohol, you name it,
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  when they felt a disconnect or they did not feel good about themselves in,
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  again, one of five areas, in their relationships,
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  in their parenting, parenting in their careers and their health and in their faith.
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  And so, I just thought, okay, let's try and help people in those areas.
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  But simple reflective listening wasn't really cutting it, especially as a brand new couples therapist.
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  So, as I was trying to figure out what to do with people and their marriage,
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  because the reflective listening is what you learn by default in grad school.
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  If I were to play out a scenario, the one that comes to mind is,
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  is, and this isn't an exact quote, but I remember early on, it was almost like
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  I'm saying, okay, Steve, what are you hearing your wife say?
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  Well, she says that she wishes that she hadn't married me.
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  And if she had the choice between hanging out with me or a rabid skunk,
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  then she would grab some tomato juice and head out with a skunk.
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  And I would say, oh, okay, okay. I thought that she had said tomato paste,
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  but yeah, I think for the most part, that sounds right.
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  So then, Jen, what what are you? Did he get that right? And I used to think,
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  okay, they just need to hear each other.
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  So, then I kicked around a little bit of what's called imago therapy,
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  which in essence, and it was good, it was helpful, says the goals of the,
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  there's this imago dialogue or to remove negative hurtful language from communication.
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  So, then you could create this safe emotional environment and then both people
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  would be open to share without this negative connotation or negative tone.
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  And so for just a brief moment, I'm working on trying to remove that negative language.
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  But at times, people seem pretty confused because maybe they grew up in a home
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  where that type of language wasn't even considered negative.
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  So then it felt like we were getting out in the weeds a lot with regard to semantics
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  and what the meaning of a particular word meant.
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  Not that that wasn't important, but it felt like those conversations would just sort of stall.
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  But then I discovered Sue Johnson's Emotionally Focused Therapy or EFT.
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  And I really clicked with EFT because I felt like now we're starting to address
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  some more of the deeper issues.
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  And there's a framework and it was an evidence-based framework to be able to
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  know how to connect more emotionally.
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  And how our past hurts would play out in our relationships.
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  And what I loved so much about it was the principle or the concept there was,
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  how do you heal together?
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  So EFT became my go-to. It just made sense.
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  You were putting out these emotional bids. You're handing someone your heart.
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  Can I trust you? Can I count on you? Do you love me? Do you have my back?
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  And that made sense based on the way I personally grew up. My anxious attachment,
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  my insatiable need for validation.
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  Hey, do you see me? Do you care about me? I would really like for you to care
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  about me. Matter of fact, I kind of need you to care about me.
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  And so does that mean we're good? Or did I do anything bad or wrong?
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  Or are you sure? Because you're not jumping up and down. Do you promise? Like for real?
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  But after years of working with EFT and developing my own concepts there,
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  my four pillars of a connected conversation, which I'm sure we'll talk about
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  a little bit more in a bit.
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  And maybe this is that time to get a plug. I have this mini marriage workshop game, $25.
• 17:28
  It's available now. Now, check the link tree in the show notes or my larger
• 17:33
  Magnetic Marriage course, which please contact me because it's been a hiccup
• 17:37
  or two, a glitch, but it's in essence there.
• 17:40
  It's ready. And that is where I go into so much more about a lot of the concepts
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  we're talking about today with the emotionally focused therapy piece,
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  but also more of what we're going to talk about now.
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  Something I haven't really talked about on a podcast, but something that's been
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  showing up in my office for a couple of years now.
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  So I've got those reps in. But what happened was then along came the crucible approach.
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  And I primarily attribute that to a therapist named David Schnarch.
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  And a person I would like to say, a friend of mine, Dr. Jennifer Finlesson-Fyfe,
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  who's been on the podcast many times, she seems to be a big proponent of the
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  crucible approach and is a big fan of David Schnarch. So at first,
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  I'll be honest, it kind of threw me for a loop.
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  It talked about differentiation a lot, and I knew the basic concepts around differentiation.
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  And if you listen to the virtual couch or waking up to narcissism lately,
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  boy, I'm working those principles of differentiation of self into everything.
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  Because I do now really feel like I understand something that I didn't know.
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  That I didn't know that I didn't know the importance of things being ultimately a me thing.
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  But it does sound kind of bad in a session where somebody says,
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  well, that sounds like a you thing.
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  I can understand when it's coming from a place of healthy ego and the other
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  person is not in that unhealthy ego or that defensive stance that then if somebody's saying,
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  okay, but I feel like that is something that is you struggle with that I'm okay
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  with, then the other person in the relationship needs to be okay with taking
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  a look at, okay, am I struggling with this concept?
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  And I'll get into some really good examples here in a little bit.
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  But initially, I thought that this crucible approach was really oversimplifying things.
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  Again, I didn't know what I didn't know, but I thought, when do you put yourself out there?
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  When do you get a chance to be vulnerable for your partner to see what your,
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  for your partner then to see what your experience is?
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  And it just appeared to be without the knowledge that I think I have now that
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  the answer was, no, why would you let that other person have that type of power?
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  Why would you hand that power to somebody else?
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  Why would Would you hand them your heart, give them this emotional bid and risk
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  this chance that they may now completely reject you and you're already feeling
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  insecure and you're already worried that if I say the wrong thing,
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  this person is going to leave or even maybe worse yet,
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  I really understand a little bit more about the potential harm that this could
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  cause because in the world of working with the emotionally immature or the people
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  more on that narcissistic traits and tendencies right up to narcissistic personality disorder scale,
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  if you are handing your heart to that person, then you're handing them the very
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  buttons that they will inevitably push if they are ever put in a position where
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  they feel like they are being criticized or told that they are wrong.
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  Quick example, if a wife says in a very vulnerable moment that her greatest
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  joy is in being a mother because her own mother was never emotionally available.
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  And then her emotionally immature husband, when it's discovered that let's say
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  he has been been unfaithful.
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  Then he retaliates with, well, if you really want to follow through on this
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  divorce, that's going to be on you.
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  And what kind of a mother will you be then to your kids if it really does mean
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  that much to you? When it was him who got caught.
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  But the crucible approach seemed
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  to say, hey, fix yourself, and especially with regard to sex intimacy.
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  And so that really felt off to me. And if somebody is a big crucible approach
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  or schnarsh fan right now, then they're They're already saying,
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  but that's not, there's not an expectation.
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  And I hear you. And we'll talk about that more because I think that's one of
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  those areas that I didn't know that I didn't know.
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  But then as I dug deeper, my view started to shift that crucible approach wasn't
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  about being selfish. It wasn't about demanding more from your partner without reason.
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  It seemed to be that it was more about growing as individuals within the relationship.
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  So that kind of helped me see how important it is to be strong on your own and
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  how then that actually brings you closer together, which I think is one of those
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  concepts that we as couples, as humans, don't understand what we don't understand.
• 21:35
  That why on earth would I want to become more individualized within the relationship
• 21:39
  if if I'm in the relationship so that we can become together.
• 21:42
  So this started to become a bit of a game changer for me.
• 21:45
  So I realized that EFT and the crucible approach weren't really opposites.
• 21:49
  They were two sides of the same coin.
• 21:51
  I like to think of it that way, that EFT started to teach us how to connect
• 21:54
  on a deep emotional level to understand.
• 21:56
  And then there's that potential to help heal each other. And then the crucible
• 22:00
  approach showed us how being our own person, having our own back actually makes
• 22:04
  those connections stronger.
• 22:06
  But it wasn't like the journey into there. So then I saw that sometimes you
• 22:09
  really need that emotional bond that EFT talks about.
• 22:12
  Because there are moments when I will stand in that healthy ego and say nothing
• 22:17
  beats feeling deeply connected, understood, heard, and seen by your partner,
• 22:22
  understanding each other on that almost this soul connected level.
• 22:28
  So now what I feel like I'm at now, so where I feel like I am now as a couples
• 22:32
  therapist is truly blending, I think, the best to both of these worlds.
• 22:36
  So then my approach to couples therapy is far richer from it.
• 22:40
  So I've learned that relationships, I think, are more than about balancing.
• 22:44
  Sometimes it's about us together.
• 22:46
  It's in, we're in this emotional dance. And sometimes it's about me and you
• 22:50
  as individuals doing our own thing, but still being together.
• 22:54
  Then we're having more curiosity and more shared experiences.
• 22:57
  Now that doesn't come natural.
• 22:59
  It's not typically easy, especially when you don't have those skills and the
• 23:03
  reps, even as a couple, but man, is it worth it?
• 23:07
  So now I think as I keep moving forward, I take these lessons from both EFT
• 23:11
  and the crucible approach with me.
• 23:13
  And it starts to become more about understanding that tightrope walk between
• 23:17
  being together and being yourself.
• 23:19
  And honestly, that I think is, for lack of a better term, is the secret sauce
• 23:23
  to making relationships work.
• 23:25
  So I'll go with one of my go-to examples is a
• 23:28
  woman who we're in couples counseling and she's talking
• 23:31
  about that her husband abuses her and you
• 23:34
  just watch this visceral gut reaction and
• 23:37
  he gets angry in that moment because she's making these accusations of abuse
• 23:42
  and I'm not trying to downplay abuse at all because I take that very seriously
• 23:46
  but in this scenario then if I was purely operating from a differentiated standpoint
• 23:52
  then I am I am saying Okay,
• 23:55
  do you feel like you are abusing her?
• 24:00
  And he says, no, absolutely not. That is not something I've ever done.
• 24:04
  I went through abuse as a child. I was hit by my dad. I was thrown downstairs. I had broken bones.
• 24:09
  So no, I'm sorry. I don't abuse her. Again, from a differentiated standpoint,
• 24:14
  then I'm working with him to then say, okay, this is an opportunity for you
• 24:19
  to look deep within yourself and then self-reflect.
• 24:23
  And is that something that you are willing to take a look at?
• 24:26
  Is that something that you can self-confront? And if he doesn't feel like that's
• 24:30
  the case then, and this is why I appreciate this example as difficult as it
• 24:34
  can be, then in his mind, he's thinking, well, that's a her issue.
• 24:37
  And I can't convince her. I don't need to defend myself.
• 24:41
  I don't need to break down her reality. And the hope is we can maintain this relationship.
• 24:45
  But you can already see that, man, that can come with a bit of an edge without
• 24:49
  really understanding what her experience is.
• 24:51
  So then going over to her and her saying, okay, he's had some emotional affair. fair.
• 24:56
  And so I feel like that is emotional abuse. And so I, yeah, I use the phrase
• 25:00
  abuse because I've learned that as I've dug more into the world of betrayal
• 25:03
  trauma in this particular group that I'm working with.
• 25:06
  So from a differentiated standpoint, then she's taking a look within,
• 25:10
  she's self-confronted, and then she's able to say that is what's happening.
• 25:14
  And I'm confident about that. I've taken a look at that deep within myself.
• 25:19
  And so now that's a him issue that he is unwilling to admit that.
• 25:23
  You can stand in that healthy ego that have that confidence and that's a him thing.
• 25:28
  But where does the potential for a deeper connection come?
• 25:32
  Well, then in comes emotionally focused therapy.
• 25:34
  Hey, let's use these four pillars and it can be really difficult.
• 25:38
  If I'm saying to him, let's address my pre-pillar of you're making an observation
• 25:42
  that she is saying that you are abusive and you've got a judgment that says
• 25:46
  she obviously thinks that I'm physically physically abusing her.
• 25:50
  So now he's operating from the stance of whatever she says, if she doesn't acknowledge
• 25:54
  that I'm not physically abusing her, then she's not being honest with herself.
• 25:58
  And what am I supposed to do?
• 25:59
  Pre-pillar. Pillar one, then I can say, okay, let's get into this place where
• 26:03
  you're in a relationship.
• 26:05
  There were things that you've enjoyed and loved about each other. You have kids together.
• 26:08
  You've had wonderful, amazing times together. Let's assume that she's not trying
• 26:13
  to hurt you with these accusations, these allegations.
• 26:16
  Let's assume those good intentions, or let's maybe even go deeper into my pillar
• 26:20
  one and say, or there's a reason why she's saying this you are abusing me concept just right now.
• 26:27
  Pillar two, you can't say that I think she's crazy, she's wrong, or I disagree.
• 26:33
  But let's just put a pause there. Even if you think that all those things,
• 26:37
  she's crazy, she doesn't know what she's talking about. I don't do that. I disagree.
• 26:41
  Because that'll lead us into pillar three, which is my questions before comments. Okay.
• 26:47
  Help me understand. Tell me more about this abuse that you feel from me.
• 26:51
  Help me see my blind spots.
• 26:53
  And now I can start to dip back into that concept of being differentiated.
• 26:56
  Because if I'm being the guy, I want to be the very best version of myself.
• 27:00
  I don't think that I abuse you, but I have to suspend that for a moment and
• 27:03
  recognize that you are having your own individualized experience because you're
• 27:07
  the only version of you that's ever walked the face of the earth.
• 27:09
  And I do care about you. So tell me more, help me understand questions before comments.
• 27:13
  And then she lays out the things that she's learned about emotional abuse,
• 27:17
  the emotional affair, the abuse that you've caused me, here comes discomfort.
• 27:22
  If I can help him learn to sit with that discomfort, be emotionally consistent,
• 27:27
  present, show up, then man, I can then understand that this person I care about,
• 27:31
  that would be really difficult if she feels like the person that she has kids
• 27:35
  with, the person she wants to share this future with is abusing her.
• 27:38
  Then that breaks my heart.
• 27:40
  Even though that is him, that is about him. Then pillar four,
• 27:44
  can he stay present? Can he lean in? Can he not run into a victim mindset?
• 27:47
  And by that, it would be, okay, fine, I'm abusing you. I'm a horrible,
• 27:51
  abusive person. Because then at that point, he wants her to come rescue and
• 27:54
  say, no, no, no, you're not.
• 27:55
  But then he says, I appreciate that. She feels heard. She feels understood.
• 28:00
  But he honestly knows. He says, okay, but I know, or here's what abuse looks like to me.
• 28:06
  And now we flip that script. She's the listener. He's the speaker. Same rules apply.
• 28:10
  And he shares, here's what the word abuse means means to me.
• 28:14
  And I was thrown downstairs. I was punched. I had an arm broken at one point
• 28:18
  and he had never really shared a lot of that with her.
• 28:21
  Now all of a sudden she's saying, oh my gosh, I am so sorry. I did not know that.
• 28:25
  She said, I will never use the word abuse again. But now he feels so hurt and
• 28:27
  understood. He said, no, it's okay. I know that you don't know that you didn't know that.
• 28:31
  And it's okay. I was making meaning of something that you didn't think that that was what it meant.
• 28:37
  And so here's this point now where there was that emotionally focused therapy
• 28:40
  piece, my four pillars, there's a chance to now connect at a deeper level,
• 28:45
  but still then go back to this differentiation place of, so she doesn't necessarily
• 28:49
  feel like her view is incorrect.
• 28:51
  It's just, it's a different view than what his was. And they both feel heard. They both feel seen.
• 28:56
  And so that brought them closer together.
• 29:00
  And I am by no means saying that it's just that easy when you decide to throw
• 29:05
  the four pillars in because we've got these visceral, these gut reactions.
• 29:09
  And I think that is the challenge and why so many therapists,
• 29:12
  I believe, they are more comfortable in working with one modality versus the other.
• 29:16
  Because I've been that emotionally focused couples therapist who has then said,
• 29:19
  okay, well, we both feel heard and you didn't take the conversation out in the weeds.
• 29:25
  So it's better than yelling at each other. but sometimes I think they look at
• 29:29
  each other and think, was this progress?
• 29:31
  Because there's no resolution. And I'm saying, well, to be heard is to be healed.
• 29:35
  But then if they walk away from that still feeling like the,
• 29:38
  man, what is wrong with me? I don't feel heard and seen.
• 29:41
  But I can also understand that if you are trying to continually go back to these,
• 29:46
  putting out these emotional bids and trying to heal these attachment wounds
• 29:49
  and sharing bits of your heart, and it continually doesn't work and it backfires,
• 29:53
  now your own body is saying, are you crazy? So I'm I'm going to,
• 29:57
  I'm going to elevate your heart rate.
• 29:58
  And so at that point, then I can completely understand why we need to go into
• 30:02
  that world of differentiation.
• 30:04
  And okay, this is now an opportunity for you to self-confront, to sit with discomfort.
• 30:09
  Part of that might be the discomfort of setting a boundary. Well,
• 30:12
  if you are unwilling to acknowledge this, then I need to exit the relationship.
• 30:17
  You know, not the ultimatum you need to understand, but the boundary.
• 30:20
  If this isn't happening, then I need to do something.
• 30:23
  It's more empowering, but it's still what I do with my discomfort,
• 30:26
  it's still this interaction gives me an opportunity to grow.
• 30:29
  So I hope you can see why I'm just so fascinated by this dance,
• 30:33
  this combo pack of wanting to put out these emotional bids, wanting to try to
• 30:38
  heal our attachment wounds, wanting to try to make sense of a situation because
• 30:42
  I'm in a relationship with a completely different and unique individual.
• 30:45
  But also at some point, I got to trust my gut and my body keeps the score.
• 30:49
  And this is a me thing. And I am truly the only person that I can, in essence, control.
• 30:55
  So that's part of this journey of life. So we're here doing this together with
• 31:00
  another human, but with the hopes that doing this with the other human is going
• 31:05
  to be a healthy, productive experience.
• 31:07
  But then when it's not, it isn't that you're doing it necessarily wrong,
• 31:11
  but it's a what do I now do with this situation, with this opportunity?
• 31:15
  Let me do a little bit of compare and contrast. I'll give some examples.
• 31:18
  We're going to talk about emotionally focused therapy.
• 31:21
  We'll talk about some of this crucible approach, and then I'll take a look at
• 31:24
  what specific examples look like with each one, because I think this will just really help.
• 31:28
  And hopefully, I know a lot of therapists listen to the virtual couch,
• 31:32
  but if you're somebody that is really trying to figure out yourself,
• 31:34
  how you show up in relationships, and maybe even what couples therapy could
• 31:38
  look like, then I hope this will help. And if you're...
• 31:42
  If you're having yeah buts or questions along the way, jot them down,
• 31:45
  reach out to me, give me your own real life examples because I would love to
• 31:48
  answer those in a future episode.
• 31:49
  So if you're really looking at attachment theory, attachment theory basis,
• 31:53
  because emotionally focused therapy is grounded in the belief that humans are
• 31:58
  inherently relational and that our attachment,
• 32:01
  especially our emotional attachment to a significant other is a crucial part of our well-being.
• 32:08
  And if you aren't from that camp, then if you have yeah buts here,
• 32:13
  then I can understand that because we all have these different situations that
• 32:16
  we come into relationships, but a lot of those attachment wounds,
• 32:19
  they really did start in our childhood.
• 32:22
  But according to attachment theory, these early relationships with our caregivers
• 32:26
  form these different attachment styles and then those attachment styles are
• 32:31
  actually the things that influence how we interact with, how we read the room,
• 32:35
  how we perceive our intimate relationships,
• 32:37
  which kind of makes sense because that's what we saw modeled and we're growing
• 32:40
  up and that's just, that becomes our home base. That's normal to us.
• 32:44
  So then EFT uses the attachment theory as sort of the lens through when now
• 32:50
  where you're viewing all of your relationship dynamics.
• 32:52
  So then it suggests that the stress, the distress, the challenges that you have
• 32:58
  in adult relationships, that those are typically coming from your attachment
• 33:02
  fears and your needs that weren't met when you were young.
• 33:07
  So it is a way to heal yourself through a relationship.
• 33:12
  So an example, let's talk about somebody, maybe a partner who has an anxious
• 33:17
  attachment style, because that's a person that is going to fear deeply fear abandonment.
• 33:21
  So then they are going to react really strong to any sign of pulling away or
• 33:26
  distancing by their partner.
• 33:27
  So EFT T is going to address those underlying fears and it's going to help that
• 33:32
  person communicate their, and it's going to be scary, but help their,
• 33:35
  help them communicate their need for reassurance, for closeness,
• 33:39
  hopefully in a way that strengthens the relationship.
• 33:42
  And then I want to, I'll come back to this in a little bit and then we'll,
• 33:46
  we'll take a look at it through the crucible lens.
• 33:48
  Maybe the second part of EFT that I would talk about is emotional bonding.
• 33:53
  And so this concept involves creating and strengthening these secure attachments
• 33:57
  that we didn't have in childhood, these resilient bonds between partners.
• 34:01
  So I can go and explore the world and come back to a secure attachment and feel
• 34:07
  safe because that's going to help me show up better as my best self out in the
• 34:11
  world because I know that I can come back and process emotion with another human.
• 34:16
  So EFT therapists work with couples to play around with, explore,
• 34:20
  express emotions that are lying underneath or beneath the surface of a conflict
• 34:24
  because it's not always about leaving your dirty socks on the ground.
• 34:27
  It's something that's sitting deep underneath that.
• 34:30
  Oh, you don't care about me or you don't appreciate me because that's probably
• 34:35
  the message that we really felt in childhood.
• 34:37
  Childhood so when you're trying to address those deeper needs
• 34:40
  and really you get to those insecurities then again
• 34:44
  if you're in a safe relationship and you don't know what you don't know
• 34:46
  and you're learning these tools then it can be it can be
• 34:49
  healing as well as connecting so then couples learn to turn toward each other
• 34:53
  for comfort and support instead of away so an example there maybe like in a
• 34:59
  session therapist might help one of the partners really communicate or express
• 35:04
  us a deep-seated fear of not being enough for their partner,
• 35:07
  and that that stems from their childhood experiences.
• 35:10
  So, the more that you share these vulnerabilities, then the other partner is
• 35:14
  encouraged to respond with empathy and support, and that will help strengthen the bond, not.
• 35:21
  Respond with nothing, being nothing, or that person taken on a victim stand.
• 35:26
  Well, how do you think that makes me feel?
• 35:28
  And I love when I interviewed one of my favorite therapists,
• 35:32
  psychologists interview, Dr.
• 35:33
  Finlayson-Fyfe on a podcast where I was talking about what does she know about.
• 35:37
  Emotionally focused therapy.
• 35:38
  And I was talking about my four pillars and talking about how she is more of
• 35:41
  this differentiation therapist.
• 35:43
  And I love that if I remember correctly now, it's been a couple of years,
• 35:45
  so I could have confabulated the story as well.
• 35:48
  But I believe that she talked about the locus of control, that she felt like
• 35:52
  that wasn't something that she necessarily enjoyed in EFT.
• 35:56
  And I get that because when we're talking here about if If somebody is putting
• 35:59
  out that emotional bid and they're saying, man, when you...
• 36:03
  Withhold affection, attention, or when you shut down, when I'm looking for connection,
• 36:10
  then I really, it brings up these feelings in me where I don't feel like I'm enough.
• 36:14
  And if that other person doesn't respond, then it's again, as if you handed
• 36:18
  your heart over, said, Hey, what do you think about this?
• 36:21
  And they grabbed it and they threw it on the ground and they stomped on it.
• 36:24
  And so then it will, it does put that locus of control.
• 36:27
  You're handing it over a bit into someone else's hands.
• 36:31
  So into the wrong hands or immature hands or our hands that were raised by parents
• 36:37
  that just didn't ever really show up and provide that secure attachment to that
• 36:41
  person, then you can be left feeling very alone,
• 36:45
  which at that point, then I really think you can see where being differentiated
• 36:50
  is going to be an absolute necessity game changer.
• 36:53
  So So that dance back and forth that continues to show up, the more that I work
• 36:59
  with couples and see that every couple has a different story as much as you
• 37:04
  see a lot of things that are similar behaviors or patterns.
• 37:07
  So then another concept in EFT is these negative interactions,
• 37:11
  these negative cycles, these dances that couples get stuck in.
• 37:15
  And they're often referred to as demon dialogues or this dance.
• 37:18
  And these cycles, they just are self-perpetuating and they start to escalate
• 37:22
  and get worse over time. and that leads to disconnection, deep disconnection.
• 37:26
  So by identifying and understanding these dances and their things like the pursue-withdraw
• 37:32
  pattern or the tit-for-tat.
• 37:34
  And so by identifying, understanding, and then hopefully changing these patterns,
• 37:39
  that's a big focus for EFT.
• 37:40
  So an example there might be a very common negative is that pursue-withdraw
• 37:45
  pattern or one partner seeks closeness and reassurance through pursuing behaviors,
• 37:49
  which can be a little bit, It could be a lot, feels like that anxious attachment.
• 37:53
  So they're seeking closeness, reassurance, they're pursuing,
• 37:56
  which then will lead the other partner to back off and withdraw because they
• 38:00
  start to feel pressured or overwhelmed. And then that withdrawal.
• 38:04
  Unfortunately triggers even more pursuing behaviors and then
• 38:07
  that starts to create a cycle and it's really interesting because
• 38:10
  i can have very emotionally intelligent people in my office that
• 38:13
  are aware that then when they all of a sudden pull back and feel like okay i
• 38:16
  gotta stop trying so hard now their partner is the one that starts to pursue
• 38:21
  when they withdraw but then when they are met with that pursual the thing that
• 38:25
  they desperately want and then they now start to then and meet that formerly withdrawn partner,
• 38:31
  now that person goes back to withdraw.
• 38:34
  And so you can just see that dance, pursue, withdraw, pursue, withdraw.
• 38:36
  And that just continues to, it just repeats itself over and over.
• 38:40
  So in EFT, trying to get people to recognize and then interrupt that cycle,
• 38:44
  and hopefully that'll create a new pattern of interaction.
• 38:47
  Another concept around EFT is dealing with vulnerability and openness.
• 38:51
  One of the cornerstones of EFT is encouraging partners to express and be open
• 38:56
  and vulnerable, to express your fears, your needs, your desires openly.
• 38:59
  Now they are you thing, but you are expressing them. And that vulnerability,
• 39:03
  when it goes well, fosters intimacy, it's understanding partners are,
• 39:07
  they start to feel safer, they can share their inner experiences.
• 39:10
  And the hope is with eventually without fear and judgment of rejection.
• 39:14
  And because that will honestly promote a very
• 39:17
  deep emotional connection when you can honestly open up
• 39:20
  and be vulnerable and have that other person see you and still accept you and
• 39:24
  love you there is there's nothing like that connection but it is scary and it's
• 39:29
  something that people most likely didn't see modeled in their childhood and
• 39:34
  maybe they have not had much success at that trying to have that in their adult relationships.
• 39:40
  So then, you know, an example might be if I have somebody in my office and they
• 39:44
  really open up about their deep-seated fear of being unlovable if they show
• 39:49
  their true selves, if they really express their real opinions and thoughts and
• 39:52
  what they like and their hopes and their dreams.
• 39:54
  So then the therapist hopefully is going to facilitate a really safe place for
• 39:58
  this disclosure and then they will help guide the other partner in responding
• 40:02
  with acceptance and empathy instead of criticism and dismissal.
• 40:06
  So then that will absolutely break down walls. It builds these stronger,
• 40:10
  more open and connected relationships.
• 40:12
  So EFT, it will hopefully move couples from conflict, move from detachment to
• 40:18
  this place of feeling more safe emotionally and having a deeper emotional connection
• 40:23
  by addressing those core areas.
• 40:26
  And so if you really look at these deep emotions and attachment wounds and abandonment
• 40:31
  fears that are underneath the issues, then, man, you can do some serious healing
• 40:36
  and grow a really deep connected relationship.
• 40:41
  And let me talk a little bit more about the crucible approach.
• 40:43
  And this is where I'm going to say I'm confident.
• 40:46
  Now, on the EFT front, I feel pretty confident about the things that I know that I know.
• 40:50
  But of course, I'm aware that there are things I don't know that I don't know.
• 40:53
  So we step over into the crucible approach, and I feel like I am that little
• 40:57
  bit of that baby deer kind of walking awkwardly.
• 40:59
  But man, the things I do know about it, I really appreciate.
• 41:03
  And again, seeing this dance between EFT and differentiation is beautiful.
• 41:07
  But if you are a differentiation therapist, I'm sure you'll be able to poke
• 41:10
  some holes in here, and I would love that feedback.
• 41:12
  So, in that world of differentiation, again, that's this process of developing
• 41:16
  a solid, robust, distinct sense of self while being intimately connected with a partner.
• 41:24
  And so then it, and I love this concept that it really involves you being able
• 41:27
  to hold on to your identity and values, even when they differ from your partner's.
• 41:32
  Because when we get into relationships, pretty naturally, we're pretty enmeshed,
• 41:36
  we're pretty codependent because we're emotionally immature and we don't want that person to leave.
• 41:41
  Believe and so we agree to a lot of things we're
• 41:44
  on the same page about a lot of things and some of it we really are
• 41:47
  and other things we might not be exactly on the same page but i'm
• 41:50
  not really willing to express that that i'm not we're creating
• 41:53
  these narratives in real time in our own mind that i probably i'm
• 41:56
  probably pretty close so if they say do you like scary movies
• 41:59
  and i hate them but i like that person they're pretty cute
• 42:01
  then i might say i mean i don't know i i guess i
• 42:04
  don't really know if i don't like all scary movies i'm
• 42:08
  not gonna say that so i'm gonna say yeah love them oh man being scared
• 42:11
  so good and then in my mind I think hey note to
• 42:14
  self probably need to start doing some exposure therapy
• 42:17
  with scary movies because in that moment that gets me out of my discomfort gives me
• 42:20
  some validation but then when I leave I'm not going to
• 42:22
  watch scary movies you're kidding me I feel good now I don't get scared but so
• 42:26
  when you're you're trying to in the world of differentiation you're
• 42:29
  hopefully being able to say oh I don't but tell
• 42:32
  me about what you like about them because if I'm ever going to go see one yeah
• 42:35
  I'm gonna I'm gonna probably close my eyes but I I would love to maybe be there
• 42:38
  with you because then you can have a different opinion than your partners and
• 42:43
  you can manage your own emotional responses without feeling like you have to
• 42:47
  be reactive or overwhelmed or tell them, well, really? You like scary movies? That's silly.
• 42:51
  So example there, if you take a look at maybe a couple where one of the people
• 42:55
  is an extrovert and they love social gatherings while the other is an introvert
• 42:58
  and they would rather have these quiet evenings at home, a differentiated stance in that scenario,
• 43:03
  if the couple is coming in really to process that scenario than from a differentiated,
• 43:08
  Point of view, each person needs to be able to respect and recognize their own
• 43:12
  needs, and that's okay to feel that way.
• 43:15
  And acknowledge the needs of their partner without feeling threatened or,
• 43:18
  okay, I guess I have to go put myself in these awkward positions now.
• 43:22
  Or the extrovert saying, all right, well, no, it's fine. I guess I'll just never,
• 43:25
  ever go out and socialize. That sounds great.
• 43:27
  Because then they could start to look at more of negotiation,
• 43:32
  negotiating time spent in social settings, but as well as having quiet times
• 43:35
  so you can honor your individual preferences, You can still maintain a connection.
• 43:39
  It's like bottom line into the day stuff is that the person who is more of an
• 43:44
  extrovert, they're going to extrovert.
• 43:46
  And the person that wants more of that time at home, they absolutely can do that.
• 43:50
  And that's okay. Okay, so then another concept from the Crucible approach,
• 43:55
  it emphasizes this importance of people finding validation from within,
• 43:58
  from within yourself, rather than relying on your partner to validate your worth,
• 44:03
  to validate your decisions.
• 44:05
  And that concept, it's crucial for lessening your dependency on another person.
• 44:12
  And it does foster a more healthy, balanced relationship.
• 44:15
  So an example there is if one partner feels really insecure,
• 44:18
  let's say about their career, about where they're at in their career,
• 44:21
  instead of continually wanting constant reassurance from the partner,
• 44:26
  they would work on building their self-esteem,
• 44:28
  finding their worth in their accomplishments and their own efforts and being
• 44:31
  okay with them, even if their partner doesn't recognize them,
• 44:35
  doesn't understand them.
• 44:36
  And when you're doing that kind of work, that internal work,
• 44:39
  that's going to help you have a much healthier relationship dynamic because
• 44:42
  you're showing up not needing that person to manage your emotions or your ego,
• 44:48
  you're able to show up pretty confident and then show up more choosable in a
• 44:54
  sense in the relationship.
• 44:56
  So each person's self-esteem isn't overly dependent on the other person.
• 45:00
  And then another thing that the crucible approach or the crucible method is
• 45:04
  known for is sexual intimacy and the role that that plays in personal growth.
• 45:09
  And I'm reading a book by Esther Perel right now, I think called Mating in Captivity,
• 45:13
  that I think really has a little bit of this vibe as well.
• 45:16
  But this concept really is that sexual intimacy and personal growth are interlinked.
• 45:22
  So I know that Schnarsh in particular suggests that a really fulfilling sexual
• 45:27
  relationship is both a reflection of as well as a pathway to individual differentiation
• 45:32
  and growth within the relationship because you are giving yourself to this other human being.
• 45:38
  And I'm pretty early in the book mating and captivity but it seems that what
• 45:42
  Esther Perel is saying is that so often we're almost getting it backwards where we're trying to to.
• 45:50
  Show up in a confident way to then open up sexually, but that she's saying,
• 45:56
  and I haven't gotten, not gotten into the deep end of the book yet,
• 45:59
  because I know that with the population of people that I work with primarily,
• 46:02
  you can't, you can't convince your body if you've been in a relationship for
• 46:05
  a very long time that has not felt safe to just say, okay, I'm diving in with
• 46:09
  regard to sexual intimacy.
• 46:10
  And then we'll, we'll, that's where I'm going to learn how to be open and vulnerable.
• 46:13
  And then because of that vulnerability, then I'll back out and feel more more
• 46:16
  confident in opening up with communication.
• 46:19
  So, I know that that's not what it comes naturally for people,
• 46:24
  especially if they've been in relationships where there's been a lot of emotional
• 46:28
  immaturity or a lot of various types of abuse, whether it's been sexual abuse
• 46:32
  or religious abuse or emotional abuse or financial abuse or a lot of these different things.
• 46:38
  So, the example though from the Crucible Method is maybe you're in a relationship
• 46:42
  where sexual sexual intimacy has started to wane. It has started to disappear.
• 46:46
  So then rather than viewing that purely in terms of physical satisfaction,
• 46:51
  the crucible approach might then encourage partners to explore what this reflects
• 46:54
  about their individual and their relationship growth.
• 46:57
  So maybe one partner's difficulty in expressing their desires mirrors a bigger
• 47:02
  issue of difficulty in asserting that they have these needs within a relationship.
• 47:07
  So then addressing the underlying lying issues then actually could lead to a
• 47:11
  more fulfilling sexual and emotional relationship.
• 47:14
  And man, even as I say that, I know the population I work with often is,
• 47:18
  I hope that that will not then be weaponized by the more immature partner saying,
• 47:22
  hey, listen to this one tiny clip of this podcast.
• 47:25
  We need to be having more sex because that's not exactly what that's about.
• 47:29
  And then the crucible approach also talks a lot about facing conflict.
• 47:34
  Because according to this approach, conflict is not something to be avoided,
• 47:38
  but it really is an opportunity for growth.
• 47:40
  So when I talk about being differentiated, it's a me thing, it's an opportunity
• 47:44
  for me to self-confront and grow, that's where this comes from. them.
• 47:47
  Because by taking these conflicts and working through them head on,
• 47:52
  then especially the individual can achieve a greater differentiation and a stronger,
• 47:58
  more honest relationship.
• 48:00
  Because now they are showing up more trustworthy, more emotionally consistent.
• 48:04
  And this is where I go back to the healthy ego that we opened with today,
• 48:08
  that if you're starting to show up because you're willing to deal with your
• 48:11
  issues, you're willing to self-confront, then when you do feel like you are
• 48:15
  in a good place and you're the one who truly knows what it feels like to be you,
• 48:18
  then you're able to stand in that healthy ego and express yourself from a place
• 48:22
  of confidence and also admit and acknowledge things that you don't know or things
• 48:26
  that you did that you weren't maybe even aware of.
• 48:29
  But when your partner brings those to you, you can understand,
• 48:31
  man, I wasn't aware or I can absolutely take ownership of that.
• 48:35
  And so then that becomes a real source of strength for an individual is to then
• 48:41
  tackle those things head on and not just Just try to get rid of the discomfort
• 48:44
  by shutting down, by withdrawing, by gaslighting.
• 48:49
  So an example here, let's go right to one of my high-charge topics, finances.
• 48:53
  So when a conflict arises over financial decisions, instead of one partner just
• 48:57
  saying, no, it's okay, hey, I'll take care of it, I'll work harder.
• 49:00
  Yeah, I don't want to tell you no. No.
• 49:02
  Instead of avoiding that conflict or both partners just kind of stick into their
• 49:06
  positions, the crucial approach would encourage them to face the conflict head on.
• 49:09
  It might involve both people expressing their fears, their values related to money.
• 49:14
  You might have to be open and vulnerable and open up about the fact that,
• 49:18
  yeah, I don't have no idea how to budget.
• 49:19
  I'm not good at it. I spend impulsively. but by
• 49:22
  listening to each other's perspectives then you're
• 49:26
  able to hear the other person you're not trying to tell them they're wrong but
• 49:28
  as they express themselves then what does that bring up for me
• 49:31
  and then working together to find a solution
• 49:34
  that will hopefully respect both people's needs and
• 49:37
  viewpoints so what i can appreciate
• 49:40
  more that crucible approach it frames these concepts the concepts i just shared
• 49:45
  that they're essential for individual and relational growth but you're You're
• 49:50
  moving beyond just a compromise and you're starting to achieve a deeper understanding
• 49:55
  about yourself and your partner, which is going to lead to a better connection.
• 49:58
  So through differentiation, self-validation, the integration of intimacy with
• 50:04
  personal growth, and then being pretty constructive when you face conflict,
• 50:08
  then you can see where being differentiated can help develop a more mature,
• 50:13
  fulfilling relationship. relationship.
• 50:15
  So now let me go back through those examples that I used on the EFT concepts
• 50:20
  and let me then put the differentiation spin over that.
• 50:24
  So that first one, let's imagine that you have this partner and they have an
• 50:28
  anxious attachment and they're really worried about being left alone or abandoned.
• 50:32
  So they get really anxious anytime or any hint that their partner might be pulling away.
• 50:35
  So in the EFT world, again, focus, that's going to be on addressing these deep
• 50:40
  fears. The therapist is going to help you talk about your need for reassurance and connection.
• 50:43
  And you're They're hoping then to strengthen the bond between them and their
• 50:47
  partner by becoming the communication Sherpa, by helping them work through my
• 50:51
  four pillar framework, fostering an understanding, emotional support.
• 50:55
  But if we jump over to a crucible approach, then the situation,
• 50:58
  it'll look a little bit different.
• 50:59
  So let's say we just tried the four pillar approach, the EFT approach,
• 51:03
  and it didn't really land well.
• 51:05
  From a differentiated therapist standpoint here, the emphasis isn't just on
• 51:09
  seeking comfort from your partner, but also it's on the anxious partner's personal
• 51:14
  growth and how can they self-soothe.
• 51:18
  So a therapist practicing the crucible approach might say something like,
• 51:21
  okay, hey, let's explore what your anxiety is telling you about your own sense of self.
• 51:26
  How do you feel about yourself when you sense your partner pulling away?
• 51:28
  Because that's a you thing.
• 51:30
  And what can that reaction teach you about your own needs and how you might
• 51:34
  meet them independently?
• 51:36
  Where can you go for self-soothing when you put out this emotional bid and your partner is not there?
• 51:41
  And for whatever reason that is, do they just not know what they don't know?
• 51:44
  Are they incapable of because they never saw it modeled and they just don't understand?
• 51:49
  So, then instead of just primarily focusing on getting reassurance from your
• 51:53
  partner, then that anxious person is going to be encouraged to dig a little
• 51:57
  bit deeper into their own fears.
• 51:58
  And then what are some of those ways that you can validate or reassure yourself?
• 52:02
  And then the therapist would hopefully guide them towards understanding that
• 52:05
  their worth is inherent.
• 52:07
  It is a them thing. and their worth as well as their strength as an individual
• 52:12
  is your job and it's your opportunity and not just in the context of the relationship
• 52:20
  and that actually by finding yourself and being able to self-soothe and showing up confident,
• 52:25
  you have made yourself more choosable and now you're saying, hey, partner,
• 52:28
  I hope you choose me and it needs to be a daily choice, but I'm a good hang
• 52:33
  and we're going to have some fun times.
• 52:35
  I've done my work and I would love you to come along on this journey.
• 52:39
  So they might work on exercises like or things that will help the anxious partner
• 52:43
  say, I'm feeling scared of being left alone right now, but I know I have value
• 52:46
  and I can cope with these feelings on my own.
• 52:49
  I can express my needs without fearing that I will drive my partner away.
• 52:52
  If my partner goes away when I express my needs, that's a them issue.
• 52:56
  So the crucible approach is still going to recognize the importance of the relationship.
• 52:59
  And I think that's one of the things that people get confused about.
• 53:03
  But it's going to push for each partner to develop a stronger,
• 53:05
  more differentiated sense of self.
• 53:07
  And that means learning to stand on your own two feet emotionally,
• 53:09
  not as a way to distance yourself, which I think is one of the big,
• 53:12
  again, the big challenges when people are just learning about this.
• 53:15
  You're not distancing yourself from your partner, but it's so that you can engage
• 53:19
  in the relationship from a place of strength and from a place of personal integrity.
• 53:22
  So, you got EFT, Crucible Approach, they both are trying to address the fear
• 53:27
  of abandonment, but the paths they take offer these different viewpoints,
• 53:32
  these different vantage points.
• 53:33
  One is through deepening the emotional connection together, and the other is
• 53:38
  more about personal empowerment and then becoming differentiated.
• 53:43
  The next example that I shared from the EFT world was around emotional bonding.
• 53:47
  So in that scenario, we've got this, one of the partners is,
• 53:51
  they have a deep-seated fear of not being enough.
• 53:54
  Well, I felt that one. It's rooted in their childhood experiences.
• 53:57
  So within the EFT framework, the focus is on sharing these vulnerabilities.
• 54:01
  I'm opening up. I'm making this emotional bid in a safe place.
• 54:05
  Hopefully, with the therapist now guiding the other partner to respond with
• 54:08
  empathy, using my four pillars, separating the observation from judgment,
• 54:11
  judgment okay i'm not just gonna observe that make a judgment well that means that you are
• 54:18
  thinking that i need to heal you and so now i need
• 54:21
  you to convince me that that's not the case pre-pillar you
• 54:24
  know no but i have to assume good intentions by what this person's sharing i
• 54:27
  can't tell them that's ridiculous or wrong but even if i think it because that's
• 54:30
  it's their experience and i can ask questions before comments hey tell me what
• 54:34
  that looks like for you help me see my blind spots how often have you felt this
• 54:37
  way and then as the listener i can't go into victimhood hood and say, okay, great.
• 54:41
  I'm not there for you. You're right. A horrible partner.
• 54:44
  Those don't work. So we can try to meet the person there.
• 54:48
  Now, if that does not necessarily resonate or land, so let's take a look at
• 54:53
  what that would look like from a crucible approach perspective.
• 54:56
  And in a similar session where that's what we're dealing with,
• 54:59
  the crucible approach, the therapist might recognize the expression of not feeling
• 55:04
  good enough as an opportunity for that individual to confront and grow through their insecurities.
• 55:09
  Instead of just seeking reassurance, therapists might say, hey,
• 55:12
  let's explore what does feeling not enough mean to you?
• 55:15
  What is that feeling? When does that show up? Where do you feel that?
• 55:18
  What is that like? How does this belief about yourself influence the way that
• 55:21
  you show up in your relationship?
• 55:23
  Are you showing up insecure? Are you showing up immature, timid?
• 55:26
  How can we work on understanding and challenging this belief so you can stand
• 55:30
  confidently in who you are, irrespective of your partner's actions or feelings?
• 55:35
  Again, it almost sounds like, yeah, screw them. That's not the point.
• 55:38
  That isn't. This is a you thing.
• 55:40
  So the therapist is going to help the person start to recognize their worth independently,
• 55:44
  independently especially independently of relationships not just
• 55:47
  with their partner but with the adult parents siblings co-workers
• 55:51
  and this could it could really be a
• 55:54
  i would say a fun journey it is for the therapist of diving into how those childhood
• 55:58
  experiences shaped your self-view working on figuring out your values moving
• 56:02
  away from those socially compliant goals to start to build self-esteem and self-validation
• 56:07
  so the the goal the aim there is going to be for for you then to develop a stronger sense of self,
• 56:12
  learning to do things that you want to do, learning to affirm and find your own values.
• 56:19
  And then that whole process might, you might have exercises or reflective practices
• 56:23
  that are going to bolster your self-acceptance and your resilience.
• 56:26
  This is why I love my beloved acceptance and commitment therapy.
• 56:29
  You're the only you going through life for the very first time as you.
• 56:31
  So accept that. This is how I feel. This is what I think. I'm not broken. I'm human.
• 56:36
  And so, the therapist might encourage you to keep a journal.
• 56:40
  When do you feel this way?
• 56:42
  Reflect on moments where you've actually felt good. You felt competent and valued.
• 56:46
  And I promise I'm not going to say, well, see, you had a moment where you felt great. You're good.
• 56:50
  But when do those things come up? When do the feelings of not enough come up?
• 56:54
  Because in that approach, while the partner support is, I mean,
• 56:58
  it's important in a perfect world, it remains important.
• 57:01
  But that emphasis shifts toward the individual who is learning to source this
• 57:06
  validation from within, rather than just relying on their partner to tell you
• 57:11
  they're okay, you're learning how to just be okay.
• 57:14
  So the crucible approach there starts to transform the fear of not being enough
• 57:19
  into this catalyst for growth, for self differentiation.
• 57:24
  And so what that does is it really does, it starts to encourage the individual
• 57:28
  to face those insecurities head on.
• 57:31
  And then you're going to start to cultivate this inner strength that will support
• 57:35
  a more balanced relationship, a healthier relationship, because you're showing up more confident.
• 57:40
  The ultimate goal isn't just for the individual to feel validated by their partner,
• 57:44
  but to reach a place where their self-worth is inherently internally anchored. It is there.
• 57:49
  And that's where they want to operate from. That's their home base,
• 57:53
  the self-worth. I am enough.
• 57:54
  And that will hopefully enable them to engage in the relationship again.
• 57:57
  We kind of said this last time from a position of strength and self-assurance.
• 58:02
  Okay, if you're liking this, which I feel like I could talk about this stuff
• 58:06
  all day, I'll try to run through the last two examples I gave in the EFT world
• 58:11
  from a differentiated lens.
• 58:13
  We'll do that pretty quickly here and then we'll wrap things up because I think
• 58:16
  we're getting around the hour mark. mark.
• 58:17
  So the next one I talked about was these demon dialogues, the pursue,
• 58:22
  withdraw, freeze, and flee, tit for tat.
• 58:24
  And so in that example that I shared, we have that classic dance of one partner
• 58:29
  pursuing for closeness and reassurance, and the other one withdraws,
• 58:32
  feeling pressured, which then in turn leads to more pursuing.
• 58:35
  In the EFT world, the focus is on breaking the cycle, helping each partner understand
• 58:39
  their role that they play in it, encouraging a shift toward more constructive
• 58:43
  interactions. We would four-pillar that thing to death. Yeah.
• 58:45
  But let's talk about the crucible approach. I think it's really fascinating.
• 58:48
  So if I'm working out of that approach, then I'm going to view this pursue-withdraw
• 58:52
  pattern as an opportunity for each partner, both of them, to confront and understand
• 58:56
  their own anxiety and need for validation that fuel their behavior.
• 59:00
  So instead of focusing just on changing the interaction pattern,
• 59:03
  then maybe we're going to deep dive into the individual fear and the desire
• 59:07
  for driving each other's actions.
• 59:11
  So for the pursuing partner, then we might be asking questions like,
• 59:14
  hey, what fears or insecurities prompt you when you are wanting that closeness?
• 59:19
  What are those things that show up for you that just cause you to want to desperately
• 59:24
  need your partner right then to validate you?
• 59:26
  Because it seems like that does tend to overwhelm your partner.
• 59:29
  You know, how can you find a sense of security, a sense of peace,
• 59:32
  validation for when yourself, when you notice that your partner needs space?
• 59:35
  So, this is just, I mean, at that point, it's just questions that encourage
• 59:40
  the pursuing partner to reflect on what their need for reassurance is.
• 59:45
  Where does that come from?
• 59:46
  And why is it coming with such intensity? And what are some other ways that
• 59:50
  maybe you can recognize that need and self-soothe?
• 59:53
  Literally pet the dog go on a walk do some push-ups start
• 59:56
  to validate your own worth without really just exclusively
• 1:00:00
  relying on your partner's responsiveness because then if they're
• 1:00:03
  not able to show up for you in those moments where you are wanting them
• 1:00:05
  to show up and I worry that sometimes when there's a more emotionally immature
• 1:00:09
  version of that which I know I've been myself if I don't even exactly know what
• 1:00:13
  I'm looking for but I just want my partner to make me feel better then there's
• 1:00:17
  a good chance they even won't do that right if they try and then I get to say
• 1:00:21
  you don't care care about me and I am not enough.
• 1:00:25
  So it really does become this opportunity for me. It's a me thing.
• 1:00:29
  Why am I doing that? And what is that signaling in me? Why is it that I need to do it right now?
• 1:00:35
  What's happening in my life? And then what can I do to self-soothe?
• 1:00:39
  And then take a look at that withdrawing partner. Then the focus might shift
• 1:00:43
  to, hey, what about your partner's pursuit makes you feel pressured or feel overwhelmed.
• 1:00:48
  And how can you communicate your need for space, though, in a way that doesn't feel rejecting?
• 1:00:53
  Or how can you maintain your sense of self and boundaries while staying emotionally
• 1:00:56
  connected with your partner?
• 1:00:58
  Well, how can you take a look with curiosity at what's happening to you inside?
• 1:01:02
  What is that you thing? Because that's going to encourage that withdrawing partner
• 1:01:06
  to confront their own discomfort with intimacy, with dependency,
• 1:01:10
  taking a look at growth and the ability to engage without feeling lost or overwhelmed.
• 1:01:14
  That's a a whole new thing to try to show up as the partner who withdraws and
• 1:01:19
  then be able to express yourself, hold the boundary, maintain a connection.
• 1:01:23
  So the crucible approach there, we're trying to transform that pursue-withdraw
• 1:01:27
  pattern into growth for both people.
• 1:01:30
  And that will push each person to develop a more differentiated self that can
• 1:01:34
  handle intimacy without losing their own individuality or resorting to withdraw.
• 1:01:38
  And that will allow them to show up in the relationship relationship from more
• 1:01:42
  of a place of confidence so that they can seek closeness without overwhelming
• 1:01:46
  their partner or sacrificing their own needs.
• 1:01:49
  And so it just continues to go back to this concept of by focusing on your individual
• 1:01:53
  growth, self-validation, I get the fact that the Crucible approach,
• 1:01:57
  it's really trying to create a more mature,
• 1:01:59
  emotionally mature, emotionally consistent, balanced dynamic where both partners
• 1:02:04
  can pursue and connect without falling into these negative patterns.
• 1:02:07
  And so then you've got these relationships where both people can stand confidently
• 1:02:11
  on their own, and then they can choose to step towards each other from a place
• 1:02:15
  of strength, from a place of self-awareness.
• 1:02:17
  And then the last one I gave from the EFT lens is in the EFT context,
• 1:02:22
  the focus on creating safe and supportive environments for somebody who's really
• 1:02:26
  going to be open and vulnerable to be able to share and be met with empathy
• 1:02:29
  and acceptance from the partner.
• 1:02:31
  And that will strengthen the bond, the relationship's emotional bond,
• 1:02:34
  and they will see each other and they'll feel connected.
• 1:02:36
  Now, the crucible approach there, if there is somebody who is trying to be open and vulnerable,
• 1:02:41
  we're going to take a look at that with that individual and see that expression
• 1:02:45
  of fear of being vulnerable,
• 1:02:47
  there's your pivotal moment for that individual to then take on,
• 1:02:52
  sit with that discomfort, confront their own self-perception,
• 1:02:54
  and the way that those perceptions impact their relationship.
• 1:02:57
  So we might say, okay, what is it that leads you right now to cause you to feel
• 1:03:01
  pretty unlovable when you're trying to be your true self?
• 1:03:04
  Why is it that you feel this shame or guilt if you are now caught being yourself by your partner?
• 1:03:09
  You know, how has this belief shaped your actions and your interactions within your relationship?
• 1:03:13
  And where does that come from? So the goal, the emphasis there is on encouraging
• 1:03:17
  that person, the individual to, again, take a look inside, explore their own
• 1:03:21
  self-worth. How has that been influenced by your past experience?
• 1:03:24
  What are those internal narratives that you're still fusing to,
• 1:03:28
  that you're believing in, that the I'm not enough story, or if I told somebody
• 1:03:32
  this, they're going to run away?
• 1:03:32
  Because the goal continues to be to help you as an individual recognize and
• 1:03:36
  challenge those real deep ingrained beliefs about yourselves.
• 1:03:40
  And my EFT brain immediately wants to say, but of course, after you try to put
• 1:03:45
  out these emotional bids for your partner in hopes that they will then use the
• 1:03:49
  tools and be able to really see and understand you,
• 1:03:53
  get outside of their ego, be curious, say, tell me more.
• 1:03:55
  So the example then, the therapist might guide that person through a process
• 1:03:59
  of self-inquiry, self-reflection, and encourage you to then identify certain
• 1:04:04
  times where you felt unlovable.
• 1:04:06
  Then you can take a look at those critically and examine those moments where
• 1:04:11
  that, what was happening for you.
• 1:04:13
  Because a lot of times when things are happening in that way in childhood,
• 1:04:15
  yeah, there are times where parents are being completely emotionally immature,
• 1:04:19
  emotionally inconsistent. They're distant.
• 1:04:22
  They're caught up in their own things that they're going on.
• 1:04:25
  Now, as parents, we know that, oh, yeah, it turns out that you still have some
• 1:04:28
  struggles and challenges when you're an adult.
• 1:04:30
  When you're a kid, you think that your parents had everything figured out.
• 1:04:33
  So then in that scenario, it's like, okay, maybe my parents...
• 1:04:37
  Weren't, maybe that wasn't okay when they just didn't respond when I was crying
• 1:04:44
  or when I really needed somebody to talk to and I didn't recognize,
• 1:04:47
  but it wasn't my job as a kid to recognize they were going through something.
• 1:04:51
  You know, if I'm working with a parent, that's a you thing and you're there
• 1:04:53
  for your kid. You know, it's a whole podcast for a different day.
• 1:04:57
  But when you're looking at this from a differentiated standpoint,
• 1:04:59
  then now you can understand that, man, that would would have been a great time
• 1:05:04
  for my parents to be there for me.
• 1:05:05
  And I did deserve love at that moment.
• 1:05:09
  And so now I'm maybe I'm putting this emotional bid out, my partner's not meeting
• 1:05:13
  that emotional bid, I have to then recognize that I have this inherent worth that I am lovable.
• 1:05:18
  And that's the opportunity for growth goes back to that.
• 1:05:21
  Now all of a sudden, we're working on strategies to self validate.
• 1:05:24
  And that might even be things like self affirmations, mindfulness practices
• 1:05:27
  that focus on being in this present moment, accepting loving yourself.
• 1:05:32
  And that That internal work is crucial for anybody, honestly,
• 1:05:35
  whether you're trying to do EFT, the crucible method, being differentiated.
• 1:05:38
  Because the more that you can understand that you have that inherent worth,
• 1:05:44
  that's built in, that is a factory setting. It's a matter of discovering that, though.
• 1:05:47
  But when you find that, then you are going to show up more confident in your relationships.
• 1:05:52
  Because if you can do that internal work and understand that it will help you
• 1:05:58
  not only manage your fear of being unlovable, but also it will help you engage
• 1:06:01
  in the relationship from a place of self-assuredness, from authenticity, from more confidence.
• 1:06:07
  And so while your partner's response to vulnerability is still important,
• 1:06:10
  and I think there, if we're back to this dance between EFT and crucible method,
• 1:06:14
  it's important that crucible approach, it places a stronger emphasis on the
• 1:06:18
  individual's journey towards self-acceptance, towards self-love.
• 1:06:21
  And so that whole process might now involve encouraging the partner to explore
• 1:06:24
  their own reactions and how they can support their partner's journey towards
• 1:06:27
  self-acceptance without taking on the responsibility of proving their partner's lovability.
• 1:06:33
  Because again it goes back to if the other if the person is
• 1:06:36
  maybe in a in a more emotionally immature place
• 1:06:39
  and they're saying can you help me feel loved i'm not
• 1:06:43
  really sure how what that's going to look like but give it a shot then that's
• 1:06:47
  often a setup for failure because the person that is trying to now manage the
• 1:06:51
  emotions of maybe the anxious attached person it's might already be a little
• 1:06:56
  bit awkward for them because they are more than likely the the more avoidant attachment person.
• 1:07:02
  So they're putting themselves out there, the anxious attachment person saying,
• 1:07:04
  okay, no, that didn't do it. And I still feel unloved. I still feel like I'm not enough.
• 1:07:09
  So now they get to say, you obviously don't care. And again,
• 1:07:12
  and I apparently am not enough, which is far from the case.
• 1:07:16
  The crucible approach right then is it is this opportunity for personal growth,
• 1:07:22
  self-discovery, and that will help empower the
• 1:07:25
  individual to find and affirm their value from within and that is
• 1:07:28
  the key from within and then you can step back into
• 1:07:31
  the relationship more whole more self-confident open
• 1:07:35
  vulnerable authentic but will end there but that concept of being in the relationship
• 1:07:41
  more whole that there's there are two ways to do that one of those is you are
• 1:07:48
  married and we're designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human
• 1:07:51
  or you're not even there you're in a relationship.
• 1:07:53
  And so we need another human to then go through life with.
• 1:07:57
  And then it's almost to have as our differentiation muse that,
• 1:08:02
  okay, all of a sudden we have a financial setback.
• 1:08:06
  Oh, that brings up some feelings and emotions for me, but I only know my experience.
• 1:08:09
  So now I'm in this relationship with somebody else.
• 1:08:11
  What does this bring up for you? Because I only have my frame of reference,
• 1:08:15
  my schema, my point of view.
• 1:08:17
  And then if they tell what their experience is and I don't go and I don't say,
• 1:08:20
  oh, so you think I'm wrong? Or, well, why would you think that?
• 1:08:23
  But I can say, I hear you. And so now that we have your experience,
• 1:08:27
  my experience, it's the first time we're here together, then we can make this relationship whole.
• 1:08:32
  But if that's not possible and that person is not showing up safe or they're
• 1:08:37
  just being completely withdrawn, well, that brings up some feelings and that
• 1:08:40
  feeling might feel alone.
• 1:08:42
  But then what do I do with that feeling of alone? Okay, I need to learn this
• 1:08:47
  budget I've heard so much about.
• 1:08:49
  Or now I need to take ownership on things that I've never really done before.
• 1:08:52
  So I'm going to have the acceptance that, yeah, it might be scary and difficult,
• 1:08:55
  but I now know that I can't convince this other person to join me on this journey,
• 1:09:00
  but I'm going to put myself in a really good spot so that then hopefully I can
• 1:09:04
  show up and then be choosable because I kind of dig myself.
• 1:09:09
  All right. Hey, thanks so much for staying with me today. I really enjoyed this episode.
• 1:09:14
  This is something I've wanted to record for quite a while. I actually recorded
• 1:09:16
  about 30 minutes of it, maybe a month or two ago.
• 1:09:18
  And I just, I think if I went back and listened to it, it would probably even
• 1:09:21
  still be a little bit different because we're changing. It's what we do. do.
• 1:09:24
  Feel free to send your questions. If you have any, your real life examples,
• 1:09:28
  I would love to put things through both the EFT, the four pillar,
• 1:09:31
  you know, and the differentiated lens.
• 1:09:32
  Take my, go get my magnetic marriage mini game course, 25 bucks.
• 1:09:37
  Reach out to me if you're interested in the full magnetic marriage course. It's amazing.
• 1:09:41
  And I appreciate the support and we'll see you next time on the virtual couch,
• 1:09:46
  going out and taking us out as per usual, the wonderful, the talented Aurora Florence with her song.
• 1:09:50
  Music.
• 1:11:54
  Distance don't explode. Allow the understanding through to heal the legs and hearts you.
• 1:12:01
  Music.