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Melissa Spence | Resilient and Strong · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

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Reconciliation. What does this mean to you?
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This is the Journey with Care podcast, where we navigate honest
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conversations about faith, culture, and loving our neighbors.
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I am the host, Melvina Gabosch, and I am an indigenous
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lover of Jesus.
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Welcome to Journey with Care with Malvina Gabosch, where we are journeying
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with care. Today, we have Melissa Spence with
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us in studio. We have Melissa Spence with us. She
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is a pastor's wife from Blessings Church.
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She has her own ministry that she is been working on and developing
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with God. She has a heart for women, a heart for women to rise up,
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to preach, and to speak, and to, you know, share their stories. She's given
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many women the opportunity and the stage to
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speak their truth and to be everything that God has called them to
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be. Me and Melissa have hosted a women's conference together.
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So I've known her for a while. She's been such an encouragement in my
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life, a godly woman in my life, someone that I look up to, and
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someone that has mentored me in different areas of my walk and of my
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life with the Lord. So I'm excited to have her in the studio
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with us today. Hello, Melissa. Hello, Melvina.
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Well, I'm glad that you're able to join us today. Yes. I'm honored
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to have I'm exactly a little nervous today, but, you know, I
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just have some exciting things to share about what the Lord's been
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doing in my life and just tell my story. I don't really tell it very
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often, maybe in my church, but there's a select few that
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actually come regularly to hear it. You have a
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powerful story, a powerful testimony of what God has done in your
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life. And I wanted to invite you around the table
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and just to be able to share that and to share your voice
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with the rest of the world and and our listeners, our podcast
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listeners. I feel that your voice is very powerful and
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God is using it in a mighty way. So thank you for coming
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and joining us. So tell us a little bit about yourself, and then
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we'll go into a little bit about ministry. Okay. Well, I
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come from Poplar River First Nation, which is on the east side of Lake
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Winnipeg, and it's a remote community fly in. We have a
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winter road, so I grew up there, pretty sheltered
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coming out to the city once in a while and traveling in the summer
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to various camp meetings with my family. So I grew up in
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a primarily Christian home up until,
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about my mid teens, when my, my
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family fell apart. In my teen years, I moved to Winnipeg
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to, you know, pursue my education and been pretty
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much at home in Winnipeg. So my upbringing
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was Christian based, but there was a lot of religion and a lot of patriarchal
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views. And I kind of suffered through that and it,
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it took me what, 27 years with the
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Lord, just trying to navigate who
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I am. What does the Lord want me to do? He gave me a
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vision way back when I was a, a young girl and I'm
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thinking, how is that? And I translate into this patriarchal
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view that I'm only to be a helper Mhmm.
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And not really necessarily a leader.
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And my voice didn't matter as what
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I was kind of in that environment that my voice didn't
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matter, and I was a lower than than a man. So I
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spent a lot of time working behind the scenes and
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not recognizing that the Lord,
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you know, the Lord just did a work in me in the last few
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years, and this took me around. And it's interesting that
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I I have a professional background, and I worked in the corporate world for
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about 12 years, prior 2019
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and my two worlds didn't match up. I
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kind of felt like I was this one way in the corporate world. I was
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a manager, kind of worked my way up and had a
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voice. People respected that voice. But on the other
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side, in the church world, I didn't have a voice and it
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didn't really matter. And I just it just felt that
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way. And it was kind of reinforced really because,
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although I've been pastoring with my husband, co pastoring, Blessings
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Church and since was it 2,008 in November?
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So in November, it'll be 14 years. It it was just this
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culture that, you know, the men would call the men up. And
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it was just this culture of just
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not recognizing that the vast majority of
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women in are in the churches. There's a majority of women
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Mhmm. And very small percentage of men. But yet, there's
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a a big amount of men that are in leadership and not
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the women. And so I was a kind of woman that was
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just sitting in the corner getting frustrated
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because, I'm a leader in, you know, in the secular and
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in the corporate world, but I wasn't a leader. And I felt
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like I, I was like pretty much a mouse on the corner or a
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wildflower. You would call it. Nothing more than a helper.
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Nothing more than a helper. So, you know,
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it it got to the point where I got so frustrated. And I said, is
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this is this what it's supposed to be? I I think I think there's
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a big disconnect here. And, you know, we were brought up with,
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religious teachings and and just that bondage of religion
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to say that, well, you have to just take your lot in
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life because of what Eve did.
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Mhmm. But when I read the word of God, I'm thinking,
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well, Jesus died for all of us. And he set us free
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Wendi no veil was rent, when he died on that cross.
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So we have complete access to,
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our heavenly father. And it just didn't make sense
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why women were kind of relegated to just being helpers and, you
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know, to be silent in the church. And and I just
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thought, okay, so Jesus didn't set us free then.
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If that's what religion taught us, you're not really free. You're
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because you're a woman. So I studied and, but then
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it's reinforced. So after I went through
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a really tough time in the last 4 or 5
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years, and I've told my story, but I'm not gonna kind of go
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into that right now, but, but it it just made
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me come to this point where, okay, I'm not 2 people
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anymore. It's gotta be. I'm this way in a
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corporate world, and it's gotta match up with what is
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happening in the church. So I started getting my voice
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back and it was tough. It would it
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meant changes in my marriage. It meant
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changes with, my relationships with my children,
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with my extended family, my immediate family. But it
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it's about just putting boundaries and really asserting that
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I am a a woman. Yes. But I'm a child of God.
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Yes. When we get to heaven, there is no sex. There's no male and female.
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It's just that on earth we we have, but
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I'd kind of had to fight through that. And now
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now I'm just at this place where the Lord I know the
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Lord's calling me to something greater, and
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it mind boggles me where the Lord wants to take me. And my reaction to
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him is just like Moses. Why me? Like Why
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me, Lord? Yeah. Why me, Lord? I I really don't know how to
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speak. I'm been kind of in the shadows. So how
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is this gonna work and how, how is this gonna happen?
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So it's just this understanding of
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that, yes, I'm a co pastoring this church,
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but I have a calling that's, a calling that I
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didn't quite understand before. And, and that's the reason why
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I've been so frustrated with how things have been going and
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how things played out in my life. And just in the
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last couple of weeks, I I said, okay, lord. Okay.
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Now I know what you're doing. Because he he brought back the
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story of Moses, and I really like that story because
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he tried to make changes and set his people
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free. But, you know, he tried to do it on his own first.
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And then the Lord had to take him into a wilderness, and I felt that's
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where I've been. I've been in the wilderness for a number of years.
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And did the Lord, you know, talking to me
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and teaching me and and all this. And then there's this this point where
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he commissions Moses at the burning bush, that whole
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experience and this whole conversation. So
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I just feel that although Moses didn't quite
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understand, well, how am I gonna free all these
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all these millions of people out of slavery and
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no Wendi somebody else. And, you know, that fear and I'm like,
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well, how is this gonna happen? Because our mind just can't fathom
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it. So I feel that's where I'm at today. So I'm also
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a mother of 5 children, and I just became a grandmother
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a few weeks ago. Congratulations. Thank you.
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And so yeah. So that's a little bit about my journey
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and where I'm kind of at. What does
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reconciliation mean to you? Well,
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and I I kind of thought about that for quite a bit
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because it it's actually the lord godfather, our
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father who actually started the reconciliation process and
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when he sent his son to die for us. So in
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my mindset before I used to think that the Lord,
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sent his son so that he could love us again, but that's not the
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case, That he actually sent his son because he
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loved us, not to make him love us.
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And so there's a lot of a lot in religion, it it
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teaches you that that we have to work for his
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love. And that's it just comes out in that story of the prodigal
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son. Like, we call it the the prodigal son, but I think I'd rather call
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it the sons, the elder and the prodigal. And so I was
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kind of like that elder son, who had everything that
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the father had. He was living in his household and,
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he was the oldest son, and he had, double portion
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of the inheritance, but he didn't see that. And, so
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he was working, and why why, you know, you you see this whole
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conversation with the elder son and, and the
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father when they're talking about the prodigal son. Like, you didn't
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kill the fatted calf for me. And he and the lord
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said, everything that I have is yours. Yes. And he could have just killed
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the calf whenever he wanted. Yeah. And so
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recon reconciliation, I think, is just
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understanding that Jesus died on the cross for us.
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Rose was buried and rose again so that
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we could that he could reveal the father to us.
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And I think that's where we're kind of at. I
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think we kind of got into so much religion, and
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I was caught in that for many, many years. And I tried to pop my
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head out of, you know, that religion kind of world.
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And then my, you know, was put right back in because I just didn't
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understand why Jesus came. And yes, it was
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all out of love. So reconciliation to me
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is reconciling to God the father
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and learning to have that
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image to to take on his image in how we live
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our lives and see ourselves. So it's all about the
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identity in him and what Jesus done for
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us. So Jesus is a prime example of
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what we on her here on earth should be where his kingdom is.
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The kingdom is is us, and we need to
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be reconstalk him so that God could be glorified. And he can
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be glorified. Yeah. It is by our
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love for each other that we will know that we are his
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disciples, Jesus said. Mhmm. And our
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unity is the method and message of
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our care. Yeah. Amen. Amen. And
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I just love that. And it's when we're in that wilderness, the Lord
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takes us through this process of just dealing
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with the issues that have really hindered our relationship with
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him. And and that's my story is that
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I didn't trust him as a father. I didn't
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know who he was. And the reason for it is because
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of my background. My dad abandoned our family
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and created a whole new family, and he he dictated
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And it it took me a long time to reconcile
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with my dad. And and it was
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upon as when he died, and through that process of taking care of
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him and honoring him as my father, and understanding
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that he had the same issue I had. And it it
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really had an impact on me when he passed away 3 years ago.
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And it's just to show this process of this working through
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that. And then there was that barrier of
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not trusting. And because I didn't trust my own dad that
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I had this trust issue with God, God, the father. Yeah.
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Yeah. And so that, you know, in society today, there's this this
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word that's been thrown around reconciliation. And
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sadly, it's just been thrown around everywhere. Right? So I I I feel that there
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is 2 different ways to look at it. It's reconciliation in a
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secular world Mhmm. And then reconciliation back to
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Christ. Right? So what are the two differences for you,
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and how can we bring those 2 together?
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Well, first of all, is we actually in order to have
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true reconciliation, we actually need to know and have a
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relationship with God the father and to be reconciled
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with him. It's not him that left. It's
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us through our sin. Yes. And and once you
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start having a relationship with god, the father, and you start having
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this identity in him, and I am a, my son or daughter,
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then, you know, through this relationship and this process
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of developing a relationship that's full of intimacy, you
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know, speaking to him, walking with him in daily life,
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then he transforms you into his image. And
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so, so you you start to see other people the
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way he sees them. So in the secular,
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you you have to earn respect. Yes.
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But in true reconciliation, you honor one
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another. Yes. And, and respect is part of
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that. And so you build together, you build together,
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you walk along each side and if somebody falls down, you lift them
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up. And so that that's what I think
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is happening. And right now there's such,
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racism and it's been ingrained because of
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the history of our of our nation. Right?
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So our people have been so marginalized, so made to feel
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little. I think we have to have a reformation in
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our in the way our churches are. And I'm not
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talking just the building. I'm talking about reformation of each of
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us individually that we be reconciled truly,
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and not be afraid to just jump in daddy's lap and allow
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him to heal you in every way and make you whole so that you could
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actually walk in fullness and with peace and
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joy in the holy ghost and have that relationship and
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walk along side with him and co laboring
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with him. Yeah. It's been reconciled back to Christ. But what what do we get
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when we when we're reconciled to him? We get joy. We get peace.
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Mhmm. We get we get love. We get healing. We find our
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identity. Yeah. You know, I think that's where I found my my true
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reconciliation when I was reconciled back to him. Mhmm. And then being reconciled
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back to him, I was able to reconcile with others. Mhmm. Because I found that
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peace and I found that love and I found that healing. Without that,
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I feel like that's where we're missing out. That's where we're missing the mark. You
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know? Because if we can't be reconciled back to Christ in his wholeness
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and and given all those things that he died for, he died for us. He
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died that we would we would be whole. He would he died that we would
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have peace. He died that we would we would know who we are, that we
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were sons and daughters of God. That's why he came and shed his blood, that
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we would be reconciled back to our identity, back to him. Mhmm.
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And without How can we honor each other
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if we can't even honor ourselves? Exactly. And it says
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all in words, it's it talking it talks about,
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like, love your neighbor as yourself. So we Or even
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greater. Or greater. Or even greater. Right. And so but it's it's
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part of loving yourself and accepting that the
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Lord made you the way you are. And yes, there's
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some issues because we're all brought up in environments that are
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not perfect with parents that, tried their best, but, you
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know, missed a mark in some areas, while others areas, they
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did really well. And I I really thank the Lord
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for my parents in those early years because they instilled in
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me to have a relationship with God.
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And when we're in church that were inside, we weren't
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outside playing with all the other children. And
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that even as children that we are to serve the Lord. Yeah. So you grew
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up in a in a primary Christian home Mhmm. Most of your life or all
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of your life? Right up until my mid teens. And then my my
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parents, separated and my dad went off to
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create an another family. And and and through that, through
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the abandonment, I I blamed the Lord.
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And and that was because I
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I just had this this religious mindset,
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that was taught that, you know, we don't have any
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power and authority that we are to beg for it. That we're,
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that the Lord is this big powerful God, that if you do anything
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wrong, he straps you and and pulls away from you until you
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smarten up. But I realize now
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that the lord has loved me, and
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and no amount of whatever I did is not gonna take his love for
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me. His love is so unconditional. It is. It's so unconditional.
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And I was talking to another, yeah, woman, the
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other day, and we were having a conversation. She had a similar story
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to mine. And being an elder
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son, you kind of think that you have to work for love. Mhmm.
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So we're both workaholics and, well, I'm no longer a workaholic.
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I'm learning to rest in him, and to co labor with him
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means that he's the one that guides me. He's he's
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ahead of me, and he's taking me along this journey. And when
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I'm in intimate relationship with him, he has this,
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it's just just a dynamic of that
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he has the authority, but he's given us that
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as well. Right? That power.
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I kinda digressed there. What was the question again? I don't
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remember. We went on a little rabbit
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trail. I know. It's fine looking rabbit trail. Yo. I love those kind of
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conversations too when we're we're able to just, you know, just talk about
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about everything else. Here at Care Impact and
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I think the the heart of Journey with Care is to
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connect and equip the whole church to effectively journey in
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community with children and families in hard places. From your experience,
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what would it look like for the church to journey with care with others?
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Well, I really believe that we all have to be reconciled
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with with God through the work of the cross, through
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the work of Jesus. Like he was sent to die for us,
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to be buried, and then to be resurrected,
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and he sent the holy spirit. So if we
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could just get to that point, and it's for everybody, it's for
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children, it's for parents, and it's for,
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you know, elders, it's for everybody. And you could start from
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wherever you're at. Once you get to that point is
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once you understand that he he has unconditional love for you
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and that we could trust him to lead us and that he has
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so much for us. But he wants to us to live
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abundantly, but he also wants us to bear fruit. Yes.
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So we have to be fruitful. Well, what what does that mean? Well
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so I had to kinda do go through this assessment of, k.
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Am I living the gospel the way Jesus wanted us to
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live it? And I started thinking, okay, did do
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I pray for people? And are they healed?
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Are they delivered? Do I walk with signs and wonders?
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And I like, my mouth dropped and I'm, you know, and it just
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humbled me. And, I said, well, how do you get that?
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Well, it's all about relationship with God. And
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that to be truly intimate with him is that you talk to him, you
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you spend time with him and he talks to you and you listen to him
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and he'll teach you and talk to you in
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many different ways. And once you get to know his
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voice, then that's all that matters
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because then I'm not striving anymore. It's him
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leading me. Yes. Yeah. Your trust is in him. And my trust is in
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him, and my identity is in him. So I I just
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go back to the story of when I was turning 40
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and my husband said announced a few weeks before, I
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wanna give you a party. I'm like, no.
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I was screaming. You know, I literally got so angry with him for
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even suggesting to have a birthday party for me.
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And it was through talking to him later and he was saying, why are you
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so upset? And he's, and, and it all came down to this. I
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was so afraid of being rejected. Like, if he invites
23:02
somebody and they don't come. And he said, whoever is
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meant to be there will be there, and, you don't worry about the
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rest. So it's about trying to have
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that identity in him. It just gives you so much
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freedom because what really matters is what he thinks about me. And
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I know he loves me. He adores me. Yes. He his
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face shined upon me. He gives me favor. Like,
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that's all that matters. And and yes, people are gonna be cruel.
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Why? Because they don't have that same relationship,
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and they just need to have that process, to go through
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that process to become an his image and the same thing,
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you know, have that relationship with him so that they're not
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having these insecurities in their life. What are some
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pieces of hope you can share with our listeners that
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reconciliation is happening? Well,
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I see that there's this transformation happening. I think we're
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starting to tear up and kinda recognizing
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religion when we see it. The celebritism,
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the focus on making names for ourselves,
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and that that's being torn down because it's not
24:16
working anymore. Yeah. It's not working. No, it's not working. We
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have to come to that place where the Lord will get us to
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that place where we have the same kind of love that he
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has for our people. And now we can look at a person and
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love them so much And that the Lord will say, go and do
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this and say this or or do this thing and
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then pray with them and you say this, or you could be in the service
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and you have this discernment. And then you, you just go and
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pick up somebody from the crowd, bring him to the altar. And then you
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find out later that they were being a little scared to
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go up. And so that's that fear of
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intimacy. I think we as a church, and I think it's all
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comes down to that it is happening. People are there
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is a remnant of people that are just so hungry for the Lord
25:09
that we understand and coming to the knowledge that what we've
25:13
been trying to do isn't working anymore. And the whole
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focus, our focus should be on relationship with
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God and let him guide us and prepare us so that he
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we're more than worthy to go and do his work that but
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we have to be sent. Yes. There are so many people that are
25:31
just out there just sending themselves, and then you see it
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all over Facebook. You you see it in conversations.
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Oh, I'm out the I'm going to this place, but I need money.
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You know, if you are in a relationship with God,
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then he sends you, he will bring a provision and he will provide for you.
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Yes. What's his vision? He'll he'll provide he'll provide for it.
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Right? So I guess our conversation is taking this
25:58
kind of, like, reconciliation kind of tone to it. Mhmm. And so
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I guess the question that I do have is, do you see reconciliation
26:07
amongst the churches? Like, so say, there's a big population of
26:10
indigenous churches Mhmm. In Manitoba, in Saskatchewan,
26:14
in Alberta. There's a big population of indigenous churches. I I don't
26:18
know, about the relationship with the main, I
26:22
guess, the bigger churches, the capital c church,
26:25
the white churches, I guess you would say. Where do you feel
26:29
that reconciliation is missing? How can we
26:33
bring reconciliation to the body of Christ
26:37
within the church Mhmm. In the context of non indigenous and
26:40
indigenous? Okay. Well, I think we've kind of been
26:44
segregated. And I remember going to
26:47
a well known church, way back in
26:51
probably in the early 2000, going to this huge
26:55
church and walking in the doors and a a person coming up to
26:59
me and my family, my husband, and my children, and
27:02
saying in in all, greeting us. But then saying, you know,
27:06
there's, aboriginal churches elsewhere.
27:11
And I was, a bit offended. And, I
27:15
said, well, it's just isn't this a church of God? Maybe hurt. It Yeah.
27:18
Because, like, hurt. I think offense offense comes from a a place of hurt.
27:22
It's a rejection. Right? Yeah. So and I'm thinking, no.
27:26
We came to this church, and so we went and sat down.
27:30
But I've also attended our affiliate conference,
27:34
annual conference that they had a few years ago, and
27:38
they they did this presentation, and we're one of the
27:42
recognized Aboriginal churches under this affiliated
27:45
body. And they wanted to have a meeting with,
27:50
Aboriginal representatives that were attending, but
27:53
it just almost came down to this, that they want us
27:57
to to talk about, okay, what do you wanna see doing?
28:01
But there wasn't a reconciliation attitude at that time.
28:05
It it wasn't true. It says, no. Let's
28:08
us try, and we'll bring people together and let them talk and let
28:12
us hear them, but there's no real action. And and
28:16
that's the same thing that is happening.
28:19
But I think it's time for our Aboriginal people. And I remember
28:23
being so frustrated and kind of disgusted with this whole thing. And then when
28:27
you went to the conference, it was about missions and and
28:30
there was nothing about Aboriginal people, and yet they had an
28:34
umbrella of Aboriginal ministries. So there's a
28:38
big disconnect between the churches. And so we're often
28:42
seen as people that need help. Mhmm. But
28:45
yet we are a people that are resilient and strong. I think
28:49
there's a move now that the Lord is pulling these people,
28:53
pulling us out with the voice and knowing who we are
28:56
in him that are gonna, you know, kinda shake things
29:00
up and say, you know what? We're gonna need to come together hand
29:04
in hand. You need us and we need you. Yes. And it's an
29:07
equal partnership. Right? Equal partnership. It's not you coming over
29:11
me and telling me what it is to be a Christian Mhmm. Or what it
29:14
is to be in ministry or what it is to be a missionary. Mhmm.
29:18
It's taking, the strengths that I have as an
29:22
indigenous Christian leader and taking your
29:25
strengths and bringing them together. Yeah. Exactly. Wendi
29:29
god called me out into this form of ministry, there was a lot of things
29:33
that I had to learn from coming from what we're used to at our
29:36
indigenous kind of church and whatnot. I had to learn, you know,
29:40
what it is to be a missionary, what it is to
29:44
what this vision is from this group of people, You know, what it is
29:48
to do ministry. And sometimes, you know, I've come against this thing where it's like
29:51
it feels like the mission or the vision
29:55
or, the ministry isn't aligning with each other. Mhmm. But
29:59
really, it is because it's the work of the kingdom. Mhmm. You know? So we're
30:02
doing the work of the kingdom. We're not doing the work of our own
30:06
organizations, our own ministries, our own name. Yeah. You know? We're
30:10
doing the work of the kingdom. Mhmm. We're we're going out there and
30:14
we're reaching the lost. And, you know, we're we're bringing what we
30:17
know to be true as indigenous people is, you know, we know that
30:21
brokenness. We know that hurt. We know that shame. We know we know what
30:25
it is to be broken, and we know what it is to be found. Mhmm.
30:28
And I feel like, when residential schools happen, that was the purpose
30:32
of it was to kill our identity, to kill who we were and to
30:36
rob us of something, to rob us of of that. Mhmm. But god
30:40
is faithful. He is faithful and he is just, and he's
30:44
building up this remnant of strong indigenous leaders.
30:47
Mhmm. And he's bringing them around the table, but not around the table
30:52
for, you know, the other churches or the other denominations to
30:56
have pity on Mhmm. But to bring them into unity
30:59
because for years, there's been indigenous churches
31:03
around Manitoba, Alberta, you know, and so on, and Canada.
31:07
You know, I was I was sitting around a, table the a couple weeks ago,
31:11
and, you know, my my in laws, Willard Gabosh, has
31:14
been a pastor, and he started one of the first indigenous churches in
31:18
Winnipeg Mhmm. Over 30 years ago. And I was part of his church. And you
31:21
were part of his church. And there's so many of us indigenous people that have
31:24
come out of that church. And I sat around this table of women that
31:28
love the lord, truly love the lord. They've been serving the lord. They've been raised
31:32
in church, and they had no clue who this person was that I was talking
31:36
about. Mhmm. And you see the separation from, you know,
31:39
the indigenous population to the capital
31:43
c churches. Mhmm. And and I asked the Lord. I'm like, okay. Well, there has
31:47
to be a reconciliation among us first Mhmm. Before we can
31:51
go out there and ask people to reconcile back to Christ or back to
31:55
us or whatnot. Right? We have to, as the body of Christ,
31:59
be reconciled back to each other first. That will be the the
32:02
example. The example of true reconciliation is when the body of
32:06
Christ can be reconciled back to each other. But first, we have to
32:10
be reconciled back to Christ. Exactly. And I I think that's
32:14
where my passion is now that I've gone went through this whole
32:17
journey of this finding out and just throwing out all of
32:21
the religious stuff that kind of were intertwined.
32:25
And so now I pop my head out and I'm not going back
32:28
down. I'm not letting anyone push me down. You're not going you're not going
32:32
back into the corner. Right? No. I'm not. Maybe in the corner.
32:36
No. No more. And and and that's what's exciting.
32:39
So I I think we're just we're at the
32:43
cusp of a great harvest. Yes. And, and
32:47
because that there's gonna be a recon well, there it is.
32:51
There's a reconciliation happening amongst the body of Christ.
32:54
Yes. And we are much as part of it and an
32:58
important component of it, but we're we're gonna be like 1.
33:02
And so there's this mobilization. I I see this mobilization
33:06
of people coming to,
33:10
back to a relationship with God, never mind a religion.
33:14
Relationship, relationship, and relationship with God, knowing
33:18
who he is, how he he does things, and and
33:22
just seeing him in everything. Cool
33:25
laboring with him means that he he's the
33:29
one doing the sailing. We're just coming alongside him and
33:33
He's guiding us. He's directing us. Right? Yeah. Where are his hands?
33:37
And, and doing the work, and he he gets all the glory for
33:40
it. So we're being mobilized. So, basically, we're coming. We're
33:44
coming together. And I, and, and now we're just getting into
33:48
this mobilization and, and I think it's just gonna speed up as,
33:52
as more and more indigenous people start finding their voice. Yes.
33:55
Yes. You know, I feel like, you know, the enemy came to try to steal,
33:59
kill, and destroy our voice. Mhmm. You know, but I feel like there
34:02
is, you know, a group that are so connected to God,
34:06
that love him. Mhmm. That, trust in him, that built that
34:10
relationship, that are gonna be the forerunners of what
34:13
real reconciliation is gonna look like. Mhmm. You know, because like we
34:17
shared in the beginning, there's 2 different kind of views of reconciliation in this world.
34:21
Right? Mhmm. But first and foremost, you know, as Christians, as
34:24
believers, and we have to be first reconciled back to Christ. And that's why he
34:28
sent his son to die on the cross, that we would be reconciled back to
34:31
him. Yeah. And, and Jesus, his whole life is a
34:35
template for us and to, you know, get out into the
34:39
streets, the highways and byways, having dinner with the
34:42
publicans. Yeah. And and getting into
34:46
those spheres of influence wherever we are. And it's not just in the
34:50
4 walls. It's about, marketplace ministry. Wherever the
34:53
Lord puts you, then you start having an influence
34:57
on policy, on even in the an
35:01
environment and, you know, setting the stage for
35:05
healthy workplaces. Healthy healthy workplaces, healthy
35:08
collaboration. Mhmm. How would the indigenous
35:12
population of church, of the body of Christ, and then the capital
35:16
c, or the white, or how would we suggest
35:20
that we could come alongside each other and co
35:24
labor together with Christ in a way
35:28
of unity and equal ship? Well,
35:31
I think it comes to the point where as we
35:35
had identify that we have strengths in
35:39
Christ, right? We, we have that power and authority that is given
35:42
us, and we are to be bold
35:45
and courageous. And so we have to kick
35:49
that old pattern of rejection and this,
35:52
okay, we're rejected. Never mind. Mhmm. And start,
35:57
pushing forward and being fearless And use our voices. And using
36:00
our voices and really call out,
36:04
the racism for what it is. Because there is racism
36:08
in the body of Christ. Yes. It's pretty surreal. It it's There
36:12
is. Yeah. But that's gonna change because God is in control.
36:16
Amen. Amen. Yep. I get excited about this. Speak
36:20
that. That's gonna change because God is in control. In what way would you
36:23
coach someone indigenous or non indigenous in your
36:27
context that is interested in reconciliation, but does
36:30
not know how or where to begin? Well, I
36:34
think we had another church that we kinda
36:38
the Lord kinda put us in together, but
36:41
it kinda went on the wayside. But I think it is
36:45
it's developing a relationship with each other. And
36:49
relationship means that you, you sit down, you, you have
36:53
supper with them. You start having a dialogue that's open and
36:57
honest and be in a safe place to
37:01
say what you need to say without being offended. Because I think that's where it
37:05
needs to be. And, we gotta be people that are unfundable
37:09
when we're going after reconciliation. And to be those
37:13
people, I feel like we need to be people that are healed. Mhmm. You know,
37:16
that have gone through the healing, and the healing is a process.
37:20
It doesn't happen overnight. No. It doesn't. You know, it's sometimes very
37:24
dirty work, you know, to be healed. Right? Like, because we have to dig and
37:27
we have to go into those places and things have to be rooted up. Yeah.
37:30
Well and it says it says in the words, that we are to be
37:34
wise as serpent and harmless with doves. Yes. But it's
37:37
also when I talk about being unoffendable, we ourselves
37:41
can't go into meetings to offend. Mhmm.
37:45
So we have to do it out of love. We have to honor that person.
37:49
They may not have it all together or or may they just
37:53
don't understand how to even connect with us and to understand
37:56
that we may have triggers, but it's the same thing with
38:00
them. And we also whatever they're going
38:03
through, love will cover a multitude of all sins. Yes. So
38:07
that, so even if they say things
38:10
wrong, we we, out of love, could correct them, but they can't get
38:14
offended either. So it's both ways. And I think that's
38:18
the coming around the table with this mindset of
38:22
we both deserve to be here. We all deserve to be here. Yeah. We're
38:25
not just asking you to the table. You have a seat at the table. Mhmm.
38:29
You know, I was having a conversation with with someone a couple weeks ago,
38:33
and that was one of the things that I think I fear with this whole
38:37
reconciliation thing is, you know, as, men and
38:41
women of God, as the body of Christ, we're directed to show love. Mhmm. We're
38:45
directed to and that's our hearts. Right? We carry the heart of the
38:48
father. Mhmm. So in all things, we we show love. We show
38:52
kindness. We show, you know, respect and humility. Right?
38:55
And so when we're having these hard conversations and we're talking
38:59
about healing and we're talking about rejection and we're talking about these things that
39:03
were put in place to harm us and to kill us and to hurt
39:06
us. When we're talking about these things, I think the people that are
39:09
inviting us in to give us, you know, to give us that space
39:13
also need to be respected and, you know, be
39:17
honored because they're they are opening up. Right? They are opening up their
39:20
their space and inviting us in. So one of those things that I'm I'm worried
39:24
I was worried about was people to go in in that angry state
39:28
still. Or in in that trauma state still and be like, it
39:32
is my time now. It is my time to say what I you know? And
39:35
you have to listen and You have to listen. You know? And and And just
39:38
go on this whole rant. Yes. Yeah. Because, you know, I I work as a
39:42
missionary in in the inner city, and I have
39:46
met some awesome, awesome people that
39:49
serve the kingdom of God and love people. And their
39:53
heart is to see reconciliation and their heart is to see indigenous
39:56
leaders rise up. But sometimes, there are
40:00
other people that don't carry that heart. Right? Like, there's just
40:04
there's all different categories of people and all different places of healing, all different
40:08
places of the journey that they're on. And I just don't want
40:11
us to keep hurting one another. Mhmm. You
40:15
know? To keep hurting one one another in the lack of knowledge or the
40:18
lack of identity or the lack of reconciliation, true
40:22
reconciliation to the father. And so that's one of my hopes is
40:26
that, you know, when these doors start to open up and these conversations
40:30
start to happen, and one of my hopes with Journey with Care is
40:33
to give dialogue, you know, to these conversations and to
40:37
give a space where we can have them and, have
40:41
true honest conversations. And to have true honest conversations are not
40:44
gonna be easy. Right? No. So but if we all come in with
40:48
this humility and the love of God, those offenses,
40:52
you know, won't stand a chance to what God really wants to do. Mhmm.
40:56
Yeah. And we have to tear those walls down of offenses.
41:00
And when there's an an offensive spirit,
41:04
it really prevents people from actually
41:08
hearing from God. So we need to tear those the walls down of
41:11
offense and forgive, and we just have to forgive. And
41:15
then from there, through the love of God, start working
41:18
together. How would you say that we can start doing
41:22
that, tearing those walls down? How would we do that? Well, we need to be
41:25
delivered. We need to be delivered, set free, and
41:29
sanctified. Exactly. And so and
41:33
be healed and be made whole. And, yes, it is a
41:37
process, but as painful as it is, sometimes
41:41
you just have to get down to the roots and pull those roots out.
41:46
And that's where the true freedom is. And there's just such
41:49
joy in being free of all those
41:52
roots and, insecurity of
41:56
always seeing rejection everywhere. There's it's a such
41:59
freedom in this it's actually less stress free.
42:04
What would it look like to journey with care in this context, in your
42:07
context? Well well, when we are
42:11
made whole, we we naturally tend to wanna care for others.
42:15
And so if we see an injustice, then we'll step forward and
42:18
and do something about it and be that voice, be that advocate.
42:22
And right now, we just have to get an alignment with God and
42:26
his will Yes. For our lives. And he's all, he's given
42:29
us a vision. He's given each one of us a destiny and he has a
42:33
work for each one of us. We have to align with him first.
42:37
And it, it all comes down to that. And you know, every, every story
42:40
is gonna be different, but that's the beauty of it. Yes. That's the
42:44
beauty of it. Yeah. What is one thing you wish non
42:48
indigenous Christians would understand about your
42:51
story? I think I think
42:55
people have to understand that if when they see an angry person and
42:58
then there's another person that comes in angry, then just
43:02
understand that they were been triggered. There's a trigger there,
43:06
and it all comes down to and for me as a indigenous
43:09
woman, colonization kind of
43:13
really took the role of the woman away. There was an
43:17
important role of indigenous women too.
43:21
They were the people that made the decisions, and they
43:25
were just as much part of the leadership, and they were
43:28
honored and for their voice. So this is
43:32
just a natural progression of the Lord kind of
43:36
putting us back into that because he, he loved us.
43:39
Yeah. Speaking about being triggered, you know, when I first,
43:43
joined the missionary field about 3 years
43:47
ago, I was called into a position to be a community
43:50
minister. And I came in broken. I came in, you know, in with
43:54
places that, you know, god still wanted to root up and to heal. And
43:58
so, you know, these people surrounded me and loved me and cared for me and
44:02
and wanted to encourage me and build me up to be what god has has
44:05
wanted me to be. But there was there was there was these times where
44:09
I would get triggered and, things would would happen.
44:12
And and, you know, this one time I remember one of my
44:16
superiors over me had messaged me and was like, Melvina,
44:20
maybe you shouldn't be, you know, having 1 on ones in your car.
44:24
This and this and that. And and this person saw it on my Facebook. Right?
44:27
So I I immediately, messaged back and was like, I
44:31
don't appreciate my Facebook being used to reprimand me. You know,
44:35
my personal Facebook used to reprimand me. And he replied back to
44:38
me. He said, I'm not trying to reprimand you. I'm trying to care for
44:42
you and make sure that we're able to continue doing
44:45
ministry, you know, the way that God is asking us to do ministry so you
44:48
don't get in trouble. Basically, he was trying to care for me that I don't
44:50
get in trouble. Mhmm. And I didn't see it that way. And I had
44:54
to stop and I and, you know, I immediately just I I was triggered. And
44:58
then so I just reacted in that offense. And I had to ask the
45:02
Lord, like, okay. Well, why did I get offended like that? Why did that come
45:05
out of me like that? And then so he took me on a journey
45:08
where, when I was younger, everything I did was wrong.
45:12
Mhmm. You know? Well, and and that's what's with
45:16
the residential school, it's all come down to
45:20
we were never trained. Yes. And our the residential school
45:24
survivors were never trained. They were hit. They were screamed
45:28
at. They were and so until they got it right. Mhmm. So
45:31
it just passed on. And so I think with
45:35
re, conciliation, I think there's gonna be a lot of training.
45:39
A lot of training. Yes. But also a lot of, and I I really,
45:42
really respect where I was at that time and the leadership that I was
45:46
under was that they were able to see that, and they were
45:50
able to come alongside me. That even though I lashed out
45:53
Mhmm. They were able to show me grace because that's what
45:57
God is. God is grace. Well, yeah. And unconditional
46:00
love. Unconditional love. Yeah. People were sent to
46:04
to you in that time to To teach me. Yeah. And to help me through
46:08
that process of, like, figuring out what those triggers are and what are those
46:11
roots. Right? And so I I truly believe that
46:15
the church, the body of Christ have such power.
46:19
We hold such influence to come alongside each other with that
46:23
same grace that God has shown us and to extend that
46:26
Mhmm. To extend that to others and walk alongside them in that healing.
46:30
Because reconciliation isn't gonna be easy. No. It's not. And,
46:34
but it's it's vital. And, there's just no way
46:38
around it. Yeah. There's no way around it. You know?
46:42
Yeah. I really appreciated, the leader that
46:45
was over me that time and and really got me to search my heart.
46:49
And it's training our minds. Right? Because our minds were programmed to
46:53
think a certain way, especially when when we deal with rejection or abandonment.
46:57
Mhmm. Our minds see things negatively. They see you
47:01
know, I used to see the the cup, you know, the glass that's sitting in
47:04
front of you as half empty. Mhmm. You know, that's how I used to see
47:07
it. Now I see it as it's half full. You know, you got a lot
47:10
of water there. Yeah. And I I just remember, I will just share this
47:13
one story about my journey. One of my little journeys, I worked
47:17
for this particular lady, her name is Tracy,
47:21
for about all my nursing career. And I remember the first time I
47:25
met her, she hugged me, and
47:29
I never got hugged before. Like and you're like, why are you touching me? Why
47:32
are you touching me? Like, I was stiff as a board and she just laughed
47:36
it off, you know, every time I saw her. And then, so we would attend
47:40
these meetings and that was a a young nurse, just starting out my
47:44
career and she was our my tribal nursing officer.
47:48
And we would go to meetings. So we'd have to come all into meetings with
47:51
all these other nurses from other communities in our area and,
47:55
come into the city of Winnipeg and meet together. And
47:59
I would try and figure out ways to get away from her, but she
48:03
would come find me. And it was just like You'd avoid
48:07
her avoid her and try to go this way. Oh, yeah. Or leave a little
48:10
early, but she'll find me in the bathroom. She'll come chasing me down the
48:13
hall. And I thought, you know what? And I I told her. I said, you
48:17
know, you wore me down. And so
48:21
if you everybody knows me now, I like tugging. I I just hug people.
48:25
But you see, that's the kind of love is she knew that I needed
48:28
that. And she's just a loving person, so and yet
48:32
she's not a child of God, but the Lord still used her. So
48:36
now I'm I'm probably gonna be that person running up. Like, people try
48:40
and run out the door and I'll say, come here. Come here. Like, you know,
48:42
with my hands. Give me because we all need love. Yeah. We all need we
48:45
all need that affection. And I think that's what we all are, you know, we
48:48
all desire. We all striving for is that is that love and
48:52
acceptance and, you know, that we're, you know, we're not just here on
48:56
Earth, but there's a purpose and there's a, you know, there's someone out there that
48:59
wants to hug us and chase us down. Yeah. Exactly. And,
49:04
and I I just love it. So, basically, just
49:07
just love us the way the Lord would love us. And, whatever our
49:11
reaction and whatever whenever we're triggered, just love us anyway. And that's what peep my
49:15
message would be. Well well, thank you for that one. But
49:19
what word of encouragement would you like to share with other
49:23
indigenous listeners? Well, I
49:27
believe,
49:30
my words of encouragement is really get in
49:34
relationship with God. Don't allow fear,
49:38
because our, I guess, our current group, you know, with our past
49:41
traumas and intergenerational trauma, it it made
49:45
us fear God and, that he was this person
49:49
that was gonna like, whatever we do, you you can go near
49:53
him. But to be reconciled with him is
49:56
he loves us. He wants whenever we're going through a rough
50:00
time, just jump in his lap. Let him allow him to
50:03
comfort you, sing to you, sing you a lullaby. Let him
50:07
stroke your hair. Let him let him tell tell you that
50:11
everything is gonna be okay because he's, you know, it that's
50:15
just so comforting. But that's that intimate relationship
50:19
that we're talking about. Get to know him the way
50:22
Jesus knew him. And he he came to
50:26
earth to reveal the father. And
50:29
see, Jesus did whatever the, the Lord told him to,
50:34
and he also had that character of God for the
50:37
people. My encouragement is, you know, just jump
50:41
in father's lap. Don't be afraid to just get in
50:45
connection with him. And that's where everything will originate. If you
50:48
do that, I will let everything else will fall into place for you.
50:53
Me of in 2nd Corinthians, Paul tells the church that in our weakness, he's made
50:56
strong. Mhmm. You know, and that just gives me reassurance that I can be
51:00
weak, that I
51:04
can, I can fail and I cannot have it all together? And I, you know,
51:08
I'm a, I'm a work in progress. Right. Right. I'm, I'm, I'm striving
51:11
for perfection. You know, it's to be more like Jesus every day when I
51:15
wake up that even in my weakness and even in my mistakes, I can
51:19
come to him as I am. And that's when his
51:22
strength will be revealed. So like you said, you can just jump in his lap
51:26
and just, you know, tell him everything because he knows us. Right? He
51:30
knows that the hairs on our head. He knows the thoughts that we think
51:33
before we think them. He knows our hurts. He knows the things that we hide
51:37
from the rest of the world. Mhmm. He knows those things already, and
51:41
he just wants us to trust him with them Yeah. And to go with him
51:44
and just to sit on his lap and just to tell him, this is what
51:48
I'm struggling with. This is what I'm battling with. This is the insecurity that I
51:51
have. This is how I'm feeling. This is you know? And and once
51:55
we do that in our weakness, when we're able to be weak
51:59
to him and we're able to come to him in that weakness, that's when his
52:02
strength will be. Exactly. And when his
52:06
strengths is revealed, you just get, you just get up knowing, oh,
52:09
hey. Jesus got my back. Yeah. He he has me. He has
52:13
me. He's holding my hand. And when you know that man, you can walk in
52:16
that boldness. You can walk in that calling, in that authority, in
52:20
that god given right as sons and daughters.
52:23
And and just go ahead and love those that hurt us, and then we could
52:27
pray for them. And, you know, just pray that they would be
52:31
come into that revelation of who he is and who they are in
52:34
him and just know that they are loved too. Yeah. Yeah.
52:38
So as, as a people of God, we, we have to work together
52:42
and it got so lonely. And that's one of my,
52:46
my, visions is to set up a network I've already talked
52:50
about. Yes. And, putting that together and this
52:53
learning to support one another. I think that's totally
52:57
lost, you know, learning how to just come to that place where you
53:00
could talk to somebody about the struggles and get encouragement,
53:05
you know, and pray together and, and teach and, you
53:08
know, just support one another. Those that are in the front lines. Yes.
53:12
Well, I encourage you in that to, to work towards that.
53:16
You shared that vision with me a while back, and I think that
53:20
we need that as women. We need that as women in ministry. We
53:23
need that that friendship and that sisterhood and and and being able to come
53:27
alongside each other and support each other and encourage each other. Mhmm. You
53:31
know, so I bless you in that. I know that once you put your hands
53:34
to it, it's gonna prosper because that's the word of God. Amen. Amen.
53:38
So I thank you, Melissa Spence. She is, the
53:42
co pastor of Blessings Church on what's the address?
53:46
621 College Avenue in Winnipeg. 621 College Avenue in
53:50
Winnipeg. Her and her husband, Warren Spence, lead the church there.
53:53
It's a beautiful church. I would suggest to stop by for, you
53:57
know, some fellowship with them. They are very welcoming, loving
54:01
people. They love the community, and they love their church and and the
54:05
church family. I just wanna thank our listeners for listening to Journey
54:09
with Care with Malvina Gabosh. Until the next time. Bye.
54:13
Thanks for listening to the journey with care podcast where paths connect over real
54:16
life stories and honest conversations. We hope you continue to
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join us on this journey of faith, reconciliation, and loving our
54:24
neighbor. Be sure to like, follow, and share. Special thanks to
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host Melvina Gabosch, our podcast engineer, Johan Heinrichs,
54:32
and donors who helped make this show possible. Journey with Care is an
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initiative of Care Impact, a Canadian charity dedicated to connecting
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and equipping the whole church across Canada to effectively journey
54:43
in community with children and families in hard places. Learn how Care
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Impact is transforming the way churches engage with child welfare with our
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care portal technology and academy training. To support this
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podcast or to learn more about us, go to careimpact.ca or
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click the link in the show notes. We're so glad you are part of this
55:01
journey with us as we journey with care even in the messy. Until
55:05
next time.