Latest / The Virtual Couch / Mental Health Unplugged: From Narcissism to Personal Growth - Mackie Joins Tony for a TikTok Live QA

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Mental Health Unplugged: From Narcissism to Personal Growth - Mackie Joins Tony for a TikTok Live QA · The Virtual Couch

• 0:00
  Welcome to TechHackLive. Have fun interacting with your viewers in real time.
• 0:02
  Creators must be 18 or older to go live.
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  Have you ever seen a kid do an affair? I feel like I have. Same.
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  So maybe they pretend they're older or whatever.
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  I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, author, speaker,
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  and podcast host. Ask me questions about relationships, mental health, narcissism, and more.
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  And you, they're notifying viewers. Okay, the first one that shows up gets a welcome.
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  Right there. Hey, the white man. 996. Welcome. Welcome aboard.
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  I almost said I was going to give away stuff, but then that would be a lot of
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  work. to give away things, right?
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  Okay, hey, welcome everybody. I am Tony.
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  I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I used to have this whole thing down.
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  A certified mindful habit, coach, writer, speaker, husband, father,
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  four, ultramarathon runner, and creator of the Path Back, an online recovery
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  program that is helping people become their best selves and blah, blah, blah.
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  And then I got to the point where I didn't care anymore about saying all that
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  stuff. And that is where we are today. Welcome. I should have brought more Reese's in here.
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  So Mackie and I are answering your questions tonight. Real live marriage and
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  family therapist, But I am not providing therapy.
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  I am providing a therapeutic... No, I'm just giving you advice.
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  Just your thoughts. Exactly. Mackie and I host a podcast called The Mind,
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  The Mirror, and Me, where we talk about all kinds of stuff. I got the virtual couch.
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  When I'm up here and you're back there, my head looks huge and yours looks tiny.
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  Waking up with narcissism? Wait, we do this thing. Now my head's big.
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  I have a very large head. Like when I try to wear a hat, if I wear a fitted hat, it doesn't fit.
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  Did you know that? No, it's kind of... It's crazy. It really is.
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  Yeah. not not my not my finest trait i gotta
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  be honest all right hey everybody lena what's going on how are
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  you get the number one gifter badge thank you for gifting i
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  never asked for the gifts but i don't know how it works either but are you do
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  you know how somebody can throw a like a heart on your head or my head have
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  you ever done that i've never done it to someone okay and sometimes they'll
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  put like the mustache or a cowboy hat or anything like that so feel free to
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  do that that's fun boo he's married According to my mother. Yeah. This is my daughter.
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  Yeah. Although, if what you're saying is, oh my gosh, that guy looks so...
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  There it is, right there. Lena, thank you. Yeah. But you're probably saying, he looks so young.
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  That's probably what they're saying, right? Yeah. Yeah. But we are here to answer
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  any of your questions about anything relationship-wise. I've got an opening topic tonight.
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  Are you ready? Yeah. What do you know about the shadow self?
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  Like, have you ever heard of that? No, I actually haven't ever in my world. Ever for real? Ever.
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  At all? Shadow self? The shadow self? A famous psychologist back in the day, Carl Jung.
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  Lena loves your lives. Thank you, Lena. We appreciate you being here.
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  We're so excited about this.
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  But the shadow self, Carl Jung, he coined the term.
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  And it's a really fascinating concept because what
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  your shadow self is is it's like you're carrying
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  around a backpack all the time and you've just got all of these parts
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  and pieces but the stuff that's your shadow are the
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  things that you felt like were never acceptable when you were growing up and
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  they're in your back yeah like you're carrying they're part of who you are and
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  we often stuff our shadow selves down they're deep within within us but you
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  still are a sum of all of your parts if you grew up and you weren't allowed
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  to be angry for example then you might shove that down as your shadow.
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  And then the light side of that is you might be overly accommodating or a people
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  pleaser or that sort of thing.
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  So you have this shadow side of you that you just, you show down.
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  Amanda, you've helped me so much. Thank you for everything. Amanda, thanks for being here.
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  And so ask any questions that you have tonight. I'm just doing a little bit
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  of a little tap dance, a little warm up with the shadow self.
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  Tap dance? Can you tap dance? No. You know, it's funny though.
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  When I was a kid, I would watch, I don't even know, I don't even know what I'd
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  be watching where somebody would tap dance.
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  And so that was the one thing because i can't dance we talked about this the other night there
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  are no dancing genes in our family right i never was
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  taught because you don't know but i could do something where i would uh i
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  don't know pretend i was tap dancing and in my mind i thought oh i'd probably be pretty
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  good at this if i had tap shoes if you had tap shoes then you could dance yeah
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  one time i tried rubber banding spoons on the bottom of my shoes i had tap shoes
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  at one point when i was a kid you think you did do tap dance yeah but so the
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  shadow stuff so let me give you an example of this here's what i think is interesting
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  so have you ever met somebody that just really bothers you honestly.
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  How do you integrate your shadow self yeah okay we'll talk about that that's
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  a great question have you ever met somebody that just drives you crazy yes,
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  probably more often than not so what if what they're displaying is something
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  that you have tucked down deep within your it is part of your shadow self so
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  let's say that you're at a meeting at work and there's a co-worker and they're
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  just interrupting and they're making a lot of comments and you're thinking this guy needs to just chill,
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  Something like that. Okay. So what the shadow self can be is that you may feel
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  like, well, I was never told that I can just blurt out my opinion.
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  So I hate people because... It's because it's a little bit of that holding up a mirror to ourselves.
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  So let's say it's showing you the things that you don't know or that you maybe
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  subconsciously wish that you could do, but then you've never been given permission
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  to do that. Like tap dance? No.
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  Yes. If someone at work, even though you're an esthetician,
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  is tap dance, then that could so i wrote down some
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  examples of this that i think will let me tell you so in family relationships so
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  imagine that you have a sibling which you have three of them yeah who
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  just effortlessly ask mom and i for help
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  and they have no problem doing it uh whether it's like child
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  care or money or emotional support and then
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  you may find yourself feeling judgmental about that sibling
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  and i don't know if that one no no probably
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  not but if any of you have ever felt that so if you have a sibling that you
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  feel like is maybe annoying and okay and
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  we'll get to lena here too i can't express my opinions or feelings with my
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  family without conflict so that would be really really
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  hard right hey hannah so that but that would
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  be hard there lena because if you feel like you can't express those feelings without
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  conflict then what the the argument for
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  your shadow might be is now you're going to tuck that away and then if you are
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  in an environment and you feel like you can't express your emotions but other
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  people are then that would be where that is that would be part of your shadow
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  self because it's something that you weren't allowed to do and you're watching
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  other people do it and it might seem like well that's not fair that they can
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  do that. Let's go romantic relationships. Okay.
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  Think about somebody who feels intense irritation if their partner expresses
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  sadness or vulnerability. And you might think, why can't they just handle their stuff?
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  Or you might be the one that's in a relationship and you are expressing vulnerability
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  and the other person might be thinking, why can't you just, why don't you just
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  take care of that yourself and not really worry about that? Does that make sense?
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  It makes sense. I just don't. Well, because that reaction, it often points to
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  like your own inability to express or to just be tough and handle things.
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  Because what you're seeing in that other person is something that you feel like
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  is impossible for you to maybe embrace.
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  Yeah, I get that part. That's what it is. Oh, yeah. Okay.
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  Got it. Okay. Or if somebody, if you're at a party,
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  and I think about this, if somebody's
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  loud or they're being the center of attention and that annoys you,
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  is it because you feel like you you feel insecure
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  or you wish you could be the center of attention so that's
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  what it's talking about can it also just be though that you think someone's annoying
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  yes yes it can and and it
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  has nothing to do with your shadow whatsoever well what if it's like a crappy
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  person doing crappy things that's true i mean because and so here's when who
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  was it was it lena saying how do you integrate your shadow yeah so when you
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  notice that that an emotional reaction seems bigger than the situation warrants
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  that's usually the first clue that you're dealing along with the shadow trigger. Yeah.
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  So, so if it's something that you're just, you just think that person's annoying,
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  then yeah, they can be annoying.
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  But that's a, but if you say, or you have to ask yourself, okay,
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  if I'm being completely honest, is there a part of me that wishes I could be
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  more like that? Yeah. No, I get that. Yeah.
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  And that's the, and that's, I think where you start seeing our own emotional
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  immaturity. So if you watch somebody and they're doing something that you wish
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  that you could do, but you're afraid to admit that, man, I wish I had that talent or that skill. Yeah.
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  Then, and when you make fun of that, or then that can be what's coming from
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  your shadow okay let's get to the questions okay okay the goat
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  in jurassic park oh go to from jurassic park
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  has been here before welcome back the goat in jurassic park because that
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  is a very funny name thoughts on noticing patterns of
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  emotional regression around your parents yeah that's and
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  i wonder the goat in jurassic park if you're open to maybe sharing an age range
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  even of where what because this is one that i think is really fascinating so
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  we're supposed to what they are yeah what they are not the parents but yeah
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  great point and i'm i really mean that because you're supposed to become more
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  differentiated from your parent.
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  And if you remember what the concept of differentiation is, is it means that
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  you are starting to, as you grow older, you want to maintain a connection with
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  others while developing your own sense of self or your autonomy.
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  So it seems like a little bit of a paradox that I'm going to grow closer to
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  this person, but also hold on to myself, my own sense of self.
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  And so when you have parents that are not allowing you to become differentiated,
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  where they aren't being curious about your experience, or when you share your
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  experience, they do a lot of judgment or saying, I wouldn't do that if I were
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  you, or that doesn't seem very smart to me.
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  Then they're holding you back from becoming more differentiated.
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  And so a lot of times what your own body keeps the score, that vibe will do
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  is you'll start to play small because over time, it's like, why am I trying
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  to express my hopes and my dreams with this person who is just continuing to
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  tell me I wouldn't do that? That's not a very smart thing.
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  What if they won't talk to you at all when you are your own person?
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  That's a them issue, Josh.
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  That's a great question. And when I say that's a them issue.
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  I'm sounding aggressive. I am a little bit. Because when you are putting yourself
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  out there, talking about how you think, feel.
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  If you're doing your side of it,
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  then it is a them issue if they're not contributing in any positive way.
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  Well, and I think that's a great question, the way you frame that.
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  Because that is what differentiation is. every opportunity when you interact
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  with somebody is ultimately an opportunity for you to grow,
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  you to self-confront and grow, because you might be learning in that situation
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  that these are not people that I can feel safe opening up to because they're
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  not curious about my situation and they're not interested.
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  And maybe they're continuing to look on their phones or they're just immediately making it about them.
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  Then you're learning in that interaction that this is not somebody that I feel safe talking to.
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  Which sucks if it's your parents that are making me feel that way,
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  but it's like they are also people and sometimes and yeah
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  is that okay daniel i need to set better boundaries with my parents
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  that i'm living with and probably that is
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  tricky and remember too daniel boundary versus ultimatum ultimatum is hey look
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  you guys need to hear me you guys need to be more supportive that's an ultimatum
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  and that's where if your parents bless their hearts are a little bit more emotionally
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  immature you've just given them some some buttons to push oh really well you
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  won't tell me or if you're living under this roof you need to listen to us or
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  there's all those kind of things.
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  The boundary is if they are not being curious or if they are not willing to
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  listen or if they, then I, then I will not continue to share with them or then
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  I will spend more time outside or at my friend's house. Yeah.
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  Um, okay. Can we get into Lucy's? Yeah. Lucy. Do you guys have an opinion on
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  the let them theory? Yeah. I do. Do you know that one? Yeah. Yeah.
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  Mel Robbins. I have the book in my audible and I have a funny story about that,
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  but you go first. What do you think about it? I think.
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  I have lots of thoughts. Do you really? I don't know if we've talked about this.
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  No, I think the first time, because the most I've seen is just like clips from TikTok.
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  Like that's where I heard it first. Yeah. Like from the podcast and stuff of that and whatever.
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  But I think overall I like it and I think it's a good thing. Yeah.
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  Because there's power in just not letting what other people are doing affect
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  you or have an effect on you. Yeah.
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  And so I think that they're, I'm trying to think of examples that like, that's, I'm like.
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  We'll get to them because I. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I, but I do think overall
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  it's a great thing because it's not fair to you, to, to anyone to be negatively
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  affected by other people's actions, you know?
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  So it's like, and it's not worth the fight of, that's what I mean,
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  like with an example, like if someone is doing something to you. Yeah.
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  Yes. That's where I go with that too. It's not worth your energy to deal with that. Yeah.
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  Would it be a good thing if you do it to your partner?
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  See though that's where i think i'd say no but maybe i'm well i feel like it
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  depends it depends on what we're talking about because if your partner's being
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  mean to you don't just let them that's not the that's not what it is like that's
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  so it's like i feel like there's a fine line there.
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  But see i can't think of an example but i'm sure there are things within a relationship
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  where it's okay to let them yeah so like be their own person and do their thing
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  and not let it affect you or your relationship, but don't let them be mean to you.
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  And that's where I step in with my opinion. The first, what I think is, maybe it's funny to me,
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  story is as a licensed marriage and family therapist and creating some content
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  and podcasts and that sort of thing, I have found myself being emotionally immature
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  and somewhat jealous of someone like Mel Robbins, who is everywhere.
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  But then I realized, okay, that's my immaturity. And the more that I started
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  to listen to her content, one of the first things I learned from her that I
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  really liked was the countdown, the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, when I'd be scrolling on social media.
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  And I would just, sometimes it's wild to just think, even though I'm an adult,
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  I'm a therapist, I'm 55, I'm whatever.
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  And I just am mindlessly scrolling, scrolling.
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  And I heard her talk about the countdown, five, four, three,
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  two, one. And that works for me every time. So that's brilliant.
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  And then the let them theory, I really like it because it is a form of becoming
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  differentiated, that that's a them issue.
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  And at first I thought, okay, she's found a great way to say that's a them thing.
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  Because I'm really, when I say that's a them thing, it sounds a bit passive aggressive.
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  Yeah there's a woman named tabitha brown i love her content
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  where she says that's their business remember her
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  and that's my business and that's their business so i think
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  that's i think i need to soften up my that's a little bit that's a you thing
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  but there is truth to it that is yeah but then when but you're right though
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  because i i deal so much with couples because i i'm a couples therapist and
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  i might see 20 couples in a week and when there is emotional abuse physical
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  abuse those sort of things.
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  The let them is something that then there are people that are in a pretty,
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  pretty solid one down position in a relationship that then will hear something like that.
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  And they almost then attach to that as if then, okay, I just need to let them do their thing. Right.
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  Even if it's impacting me. And that's not fair. Right. Which that Lucy then
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  said though, so I don't know if she might not like it, but let them blah,
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  blah, blah, but let me react a certain way.
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  There you go. Oh, it does make sense. And I feel like that's getting... Yeah.
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  And that's where, and that's where one of my clients who I just love to death
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  she just devoured that book um right when it
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  came out and then we had a session the next day and she was asking
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  my opinion and i was telling her again i don't know i don't know enough about
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  it yet but she was sharing that with me that it's a great concept and
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  she said they she that mel all that says the the word differentiation because
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  but then remember that one of the best parts about differentiation is i can
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  let them but then i can here comes a boundary then if they are going to if i
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  am letting them and they are going to do something that is not healthy or good for me then I will exit.
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  And I think that toward the end of the book, I think apparently she might say then the let me.
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  So that's the part I don't know. I've never read the book. I've only seen the
• 15:01
  little clips. But yeah, because it's let them do their things. Oh, it's stars.
• 15:04
  Let's talk about that, right? Yeah. Because it's not your job to...
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  Change them or make them do things differently but that doesn't
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  mean yeah it's just let them and then deal with the consequences yeah so start
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  what started saying when i react and try to talk to my husband he just yells more
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  and i'm so sorry for that too i work a
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  lot with the the world of the emotionally immature slash narcissistic
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  traits and tendencies people and that's incredible
• 15:27
  immaturity when somebody continues to get louder and bigger because that's their
• 15:31
  little kid it's a little kid there inside of them that is saying this is the
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  only way that i will have control that they can't rely on their big boy words
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  or to be able to express their emotions or when somebody is saying something
• 15:43
  that makes them feel bad, then what do they do?
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  How do they get rid of their discomfort? They turn around and yell or they get
• 15:49
  angry to then take that one up position.
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  So it starts, I'm so sorry. And that's one where a boundary,
• 15:55
  a healthy boundary would be when he yells, then I leave.
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  And unfortunately, that doesn't mean that he'll respect the boundary.
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  And that's why boundaries are so important because they're your,
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  it's a you thing. It's for you to take back a little bit of that power,
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  even though it's not that you're letting him know I'm taking back power.
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  I just, that is something that I have to do.
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  So I really do. I love the concept around let them. And this is where so much
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  of real mental health work is about something works until it doesn't,
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  or it works in the times that it does, but there are other times where you need
• 16:25
  other tools. So it's not just an all or nothing.
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  So some people will embrace something like a let them, and then just hang on
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  to that because it's better than not having a tool, but it's a tool to start
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  with and then there will be situations where it won't work and i think that's
• 16:37
  what i love yeah that's so important to know right but it's not yeah it's not a yeah.
• 16:42
  One-size-fits-all situation yeah and what i like about i mean i love this being
• 16:47
  able to interact with even just the community that shows up at these lives because
• 16:50
  hopefully you'll walk away from this tonight and if you're even curious about
• 16:54
  what is the let them theory that it is about being differentiated that is a
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  them issue that is their business i can let them be who they are,
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  but that doesn't mean that then I have to then manage their emotions or that I have to play small.
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  And so that's where it's something to interact with to help yourself become
• 17:11
  better. Okay, what else do we have? Yeah.
• 17:16
  Mini ryan feel free to break up questions into multiples
• 17:19
  if you want to okay you're saying i want to
• 17:22
  be able to type as much as i want right now i'm getting an answer oh i hear you
• 17:25
  or just sum it up for and we'll try yeah we will
• 17:28
  do our best there okay john why do i still miss my ex
• 17:30
  after four months and i dated them for a year i'd say
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  that's pretty normal that's not that doesn't mean anything like
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  when you're committed to a person for that long and they take
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  up that much of your time for that long they don't
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  just disappear out of your mind they don't and and think about this too
• 17:47
  think of all the especially during the the love bombing
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  or the honeymoon phase of the relationship how you're already
• 17:52
  planning i think yeah you planned your whole life yeah
• 17:55
  whether people want to admit it or not i think that we're we're all for
• 17:58
  the most part your mind it does that we're dreamers and so yeah
• 18:01
  so then we think about it we think about good situations and
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  if you if it took a year to break up then i'm
• 18:07
  sure that there were times that were good there were then times that
• 18:10
  weren't so good and now we're starting to tiptoe into
• 18:12
  the waters of the trauma bond a little bit of that intermittent reinforcement where
• 18:16
  the same person that gives you the punishment also provides you
• 18:19
  with the reward and it can it actually acts in the area of the brain that's
• 18:23
  similar to where a like a drug addict does so the person and that's why so often
• 18:28
  when i see people in my office where they're navigating a breakup but the person
• 18:32
  they want to go commiserate with is the person that they're breaking up with have you ever felt that
• 18:37
  Yeah, no, I know that feeling I told you about this in one of the last lives
• 18:42
  The Bachelor people Where the guy was a.
• 18:46
  Don't shadow ban. Don't get a shadow ban. He sucked. And the girl went on the
• 18:51
  Call Her Daddy podcast. Oh, yeah. You remember that? Yeah.
• 18:53
  And she brought up that point where she was like, it's so hard because the one
• 18:56
  person I want to... She's crying and she's hurting.
• 18:58
  And it's like the one person she wants to go talk to about it is the one that hurt her.
• 19:02
  Yeah. You know? Yeah. So it is that weird, like... Absolutely.
• 19:05
  But I definitely felt that after my somewhat traumatic relationship.
• 19:09
  Or a very traumatic relationship.
• 19:12
  Where it was like... That was the person I went to for nearly a year.
• 19:16
  And so then as I'm going through things after that, it was like,
• 19:19
  my first thought would be, that's who I want to talk to. And then two minutes
• 19:22
  later, I'd be like, no, I don't.
• 19:24
  Yeah. But it does. You're so used to that. They occupied so much of your mental
• 19:28
  calories, your emotional calories.
• 19:29
  For a long time. It's going to take some time to grieve. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's
• 19:33
  Stages of Grief and Loss.
• 19:35
  It's interesting. If you go look at those up, they're not, it's actually not
• 19:37
  an evidence-based model.
• 19:38
  And that's one where, while I might not be a fan of things like the love languages,
• 19:43
  because people will weaponize those against each other.
• 19:45
  And those aren't an evidence-based model, but the stages of grief and loss,
• 19:49
  the acronym is DABDA, which is a hard one to remember, but yeah,
• 19:52
  denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and then acceptance.
• 19:55
  I like those because even again, if it's not, it is linear evidence-based model,
• 20:00
  know that there's going to be a lot of denial that, that this is not happening
• 20:03
  or, and there's going to be anger. How can they do this to me?
• 20:05
  And then the bargaining is a really wild stage because I, that's the,
• 20:09
  one of the most misunderstood.
• 20:10
  The bargaining is okay. I'll do whatever it takes to make this thing work.
• 20:14
  And then, yeah. Like, I'll sacrifice things. Yeah, I'll sacrifice things.
• 20:17
  I'll lose my sense of self because when it's good, it is good. And maybe it is my fault.
• 20:22
  And I'll tell you, Mac, one of the things I think is so crazy is how many people
• 20:25
  will then try to make a situation about them.
• 20:29
  Because if it's about them, they can fix it.
• 20:32
  But right it's like gaining back control yeah
• 20:35
  so even if not in a malicious way exactly
• 20:38
  yeah so the happy fun version of control you hear control and
• 20:41
  it's automatically negative yeah yeah which segue yeah is control a real thing
• 20:46
  will we ever have it or is it just paradoxical oh that's a great question yeah
• 20:50
  so honestly i don't so we want we want there's some things we want we want control
• 20:55
  we want certainty we want to alleviate our discomfort and what you just said
• 20:59
  there, is it paradoxical?
• 21:00
  That is one of my favorite words in mental health because weren't we talking
• 21:03
  about this where if the things that were easy to do worked, then nobody would have any problems.
• 21:09
  Oh yeah. So that's the paradoxical nature of mental health in general.
• 21:12
  So if I could just stop thinking things, then that'd be easy.
• 21:15
  But when I try to not think of things, don't think about the white elephant.
• 21:19
  Don't think about the white elephant wearing a green tutu. Don't think about
• 21:21
  him balancing on a ball. Don't think about him throwing things with his trunk. We all just did it.
• 21:26
  That is the easiest paradoxical example of mental health.
• 21:30
  So, what we have to do is we have to acknowledge, I'm thinking it,
• 21:33
  acknowledge that I'm feeling my feelings.
• 21:35
  So, if I go back to control a real thing, it's why do I need control?
• 21:40
  Because I think for the most part, control is an immature response,
• 21:44
  is a way to have things in our lives and in our relationships.
• 21:47
  I can have acceptance and I can make room for the things that I want.
• 21:51
  But if I need to control them, then I think that starts to control me versus
• 21:55
  that's something that I'm moving toward, that I would like,
• 21:58
  that I want to embrace, that I would love to notice, to bring it along with
• 22:03
  me, but control, then all of a sudden it is controlling me.
• 22:08
  That's tricky stuff. Yeah, the paradoxical stuff though. Yeah,
• 22:11
  that's deep, especially with the mental health. Yeah, I think about that a lot.
• 22:14
  Okay, speed run for you. What are your favorite book recommendations for couples?
• 22:19
  You know, I used to always say Emotionally Focused or Hold Me Tight,
• 22:22
  which is a Sue Johnson book.
• 22:24
  It's about emotionally focused therapy. And it is a good book,
• 22:28
  but I am slowly but surely moving over from the emotionally focused therapy
• 22:32
  model to more of a model of becoming differentiated.
• 22:35
  Being a differentiation therapist.
• 22:37
  And there's a book by David Schnarch called Passionate Marriage.
• 22:40
  The unfortunate part is it's not available in audio or on Kindle.
• 22:43
  So you have to buy the actual book and read it. I like actual books. I can't do audio books.
• 22:49
  But any of this stuff from Sue Johnson, I think Love Sense is her follow-up
• 22:52
  book from Hold Me Tight. And I really like that as well.
• 22:55
  Yeah, those are my immediate go-tos. Okay. Going back.
• 22:59
  There we go, Lucy. Yeah, that's the part. You can't have Let Them without Let
• 23:01
  Me, which I liked about the book. But I was a skeptic. Yeah.
• 23:04
  And I appreciate that. And that's what... Oh, I was going to say something else
• 23:06
  about a book. So I'm working on a book about my emotional baseline,
• 23:09
  Raising Your Emotional Baseline right now.
• 23:10
  And I've got a book out about addiction and recovery.
• 23:13
  And there's a really fascinating thing that happens when you write a book.
• 23:16
  Trauma Bond Preach, I like who said that.
• 23:18
  But when you are writing a book, it's wild. Because I always wanted to write
• 23:23
  a book. And then when I finally got a book deal and I was writing a book,
• 23:25
  I got so behind on writing it. Because when you actually are starting to write it, it's odd.
• 23:29
  It's just such a trip to think, these are going to be the words.
• 23:32
  And it's almost like they're going to be locked in. And I wanted to just go
• 23:36
  on and on and on explaining all the different variations and variables that would be in a situation.
• 23:41
  So even I know that someone like a Mel Robbins, there's going to be, yeah, let them, let me.
• 23:46
  And it's hard to, I often think of when you're writing a book,
• 23:49
  you just have to make it, there's a template.
• 23:51
  And you'll never, ever be able to address all the things that you want to.
• 23:55
  Even in podcasts, I've got 700 podcasts out now.
• 23:58
  You still have so much more. So much more. And I just want to just keep going and going. Exactly.
• 24:05
  Okay. Are you ready to speed run? Oh, yeah. We're getting behind. Okay.
• 24:08
  Okay. I feel stuck in life no matter what I do, how to start making change in my life.
• 24:13
  Little tiny things is my initial go-to thing. Do you mind speed running like
• 24:18
  the fact that, what were you like a year ago?
• 24:24
  Horrible? The worst I've ever been in my own life? No, you were horrible. Mackie.
• 24:27
  No, but I had just gotten a diagnosis for an autoimmune disease,
• 24:30
  and I had spent years not feeling
• 24:33
  like myself and feeling awful and was at the peak of it and everything was
• 24:35
  terrible and my mental health was the worst it had ever been and genuinely
• 24:39
  what has got me to a point where i'm okay is the
• 24:42
  little tiny things and we joked about this on our on
• 24:45
  podcast and stuff too but like i got into legos and
• 24:48
  like made lego flowers yeah watercolor reading books
• 24:52
  puzzles playing my piano like it's all the little things that don't feel important
• 24:57
  are actually you were go on walks up in the canyon yeah i would go on walks
• 25:00
  i and it's like even the dumb like taking a shower and brushing your teeth twice
• 25:05
  a day and like thank you for me like i would just i would.
• 25:11
  It sounds dumb but i would set a goal to do my makeup every day
• 25:14
  even if i didn't feel like it just because it was like self-care in a
• 25:17
  sense and made me feel better but it's genuinely the tiny
• 25:20
  little not even 10 shifts it's even
• 25:23
  smaller than that and it's petting your dog that's
• 25:26
  the one you always say no but it's doing anything besides just
• 25:30
  sitting and ruminating that that right
• 25:33
  there and i want to come back to you in a second here because i want i would
• 25:35
  love for you people to hear for those that are
• 25:38
  new here don't know mackie's story go find the mind
• 25:41
  the mirror and me podcast or on the virtual couch we talked about at
• 25:43
  one point but you've lost how much weight in the
• 25:46
  last year 65 pounds you you
• 25:49
  and you did an amazing job and i think even on the podcast i
• 25:52
  was saying of course i knew you would do it no i was like worried
• 25:55
  that that would be hard too hard to do you meal prepped your
• 25:57
  own food you cook things you you were just so disciplined and then we ran a
• 26:01
  half marathon a few months ago and you pr'd and and that was all within a year
• 26:06
  and a little over a year ago just for anybody that we moved out to arizona you
• 26:11
  were in utah i was in california but we called you one afternoon or you called
• 26:14
  us and you weren't doing very well and i jumped on the worst day.
• 26:18
  I jumped on an airplane i said mackie do you want me to come get you and you
• 26:21
  said i don't know Yeah, no, and I don't know.
• 26:24
  You got on an airplane? I did. I got on an airplane a couple hours later,
• 26:27
  made it out there. You picked me up at the airport. I didn't even know if you would.
• 26:30
  I mean, I was planning on just coming back the next day if I had to. Yeah.
• 26:33
  And we drove through the night. We wanted the air conditioning on traveling
• 26:36
  through the night. It was so cold. I couldn't breathe. I was anxious.
• 26:40
  It was so cold. And we sang songs and I took my ADHD medication.
• 26:43
  Thank goodness. So I was like,
• 26:45
  I stayed up for a couple of days. Remember you dropped me off at my work and
• 26:50
  I started to see like 12 clients the next day. And I'm like,
• 26:53
  Hey guys, I'm fine. How are you?
• 26:55
  What a great day. And it's like, genuinely though, it's so weird to even think
• 26:57
  that that's what position I was in now because I am okay right now. It's incredible.
• 27:01
  And so it's like, it is that it does get better and it gets a little worse sometimes,
• 27:05
  but it always gets better. And it is because of the little tiny things. Yeah.
• 27:10
  So don't just, don't think you're not doing anything. If all you did was shower.
• 27:13
  You know, like that's all I'm getting at work.
• 27:15
  That's what i want to say a year later matter your life has changed
• 27:18
  so much and that you did not see that coming and danielle
• 27:21
  it just takes a little bit of courage a little bit of time a little bit of perseverance
• 27:24
  yeah lots of little bits of things and then i do i
• 27:27
  call it the my emotional baseline theory that when you
• 27:30
  are when you're on top of the world your baseline of emotions is high and
• 27:33
  everything seems pretty easy and you're making all the decisions that come at you
• 27:36
  when you start to feel pretty bad your baseline of emotions drops but
• 27:39
  all the same decisions were there you had a salon studio
• 27:42
  you had you're trying to make money you were trying to and all
• 27:44
  those decisions were there and the lower your emotional baseline got the
• 27:47
  harder it was to reach up and grab the tools that
• 27:50
  you needed yeah and so then i was backtracking so hard
• 27:53
  and i didn't know how to fix anything and everything was overwhelming yeah and
• 27:57
  so what mackey's saying and what and what we're talking about is what it means
• 28:01
  to raise your emotional baseline is self-care self-care is not selfish and self-care
• 28:05
  can be everything from listening to something thinking something dreaming something
• 28:09
  believing something then starting to take action do a little coloring do a little
• 28:13
  colors go on a walk set a timer for an hour and every
• 28:15
  time that timer goes off get up and turn it off and get back
• 28:18
  down whatever you have to do anything that's because you're
• 28:21
  bumping your baseline up a little bit yeah and this is the part two where i'm
• 28:24
  not a psychiatrist i'm a marriage and family therapist so i don't prescribe
• 28:27
  medication yeah but medication is it can help raise your emotional baseline
• 28:33
  a little bit yeah so it might bump you up enough to then be able to access the
• 28:37
  tools you might need of meditation mindfulness going on walks reaching out to people.
• 28:41
  And that's a really difficult thing because a lot of times people,
• 28:43
  their emotional baseline is so low and they're the ones that are trying to say.
• 28:47
  Should i do this but then and that's that's what was
• 28:50
  hard about when i was saying should i come get you because i was too low
• 28:53
  your baseline's low so that's really hard i was like
• 28:55
  no i'm fine but i wasn't fine yeah so that's yeah
• 28:58
  so just do anything to raise that emotional baseline lucy
• 29:01
  said have y'all heard of the finch app it's cute and starts
• 29:04
  out with small goals i haven't but that does sound cute okay can.
• 29:07
  I be honest but so i'm sitting back here and i need
• 29:10
  new glasses i really do i thought i said small goats i'm
• 29:13
  dead serious because i'm watching severance and they're into the section where
• 29:15
  the cooper ferguson was on there says to invite him live we
• 29:19
  should invite cooper live and kelly said hi kelly hey kelly kelly
• 29:22
  what's going on thanks for coming kelly's one of the ogs which
• 29:25
  i think is so cool like riddle nerd i've seen uh real nerd
• 29:28
  here kelly there's people that have just been here for a long time it's really.
• 29:31
  Cool it is okay i'm near
• 29:34
  i i have never meal prepped and lost 60 pounds to ash way
• 29:37
  to go for us be nice i have
• 29:40
  never meal prepped and i have not lost any pounds so i
• 29:44
  guess you put us all together we got it all figured out but
• 29:47
  i'm happy for you oh what's the condition somebody said are you
• 29:49
  open to that oh um hashimoto's hypothyroidism yeah
• 29:52
  okay mini ryan again
• 29:56
  how do you fight depression and anxiety being
• 29:59
  bipolar do i get medicated honestly and again this is
• 30:01
  where i'm just gonna throw out first thing everything don't
• 30:05
  that's you know eat no et is that
• 30:08
  too i never saw it as a kid but i do know it was very
• 30:11
  scary to me they use Reese's Pieces for ET and
• 30:14
  I've never liked Reese's Pieces and M&Ms were anyway
• 30:17
  anyway okay um everything we
• 30:20
  just said about all the little things that would be my same answer initially
• 30:23
  to fighting depression and anxiety because
• 30:26
  also when I was like 14 I
• 30:30
  was diagnosed with depression and it was a legit very serious thing for me from
• 30:36
  that high school time and it was all those same little things like it was that's
• 30:42
  when i taught myself guitar piano and like it was those same it's also that
• 30:46
  same and the baseline theory also is very crucial i think to.
• 30:51
  Managing depression and anxiety so take all that into account but then you the
• 30:55
  bipolar and the bipolar is one that uh i've been asked before about that one
• 30:59
  and that's one i'm not as familiar with and but i know that it that bipolar
• 31:02
  is one that that does most likely needs some medication.
• 31:07
  And and i know that there are people that if they are
• 31:09
  bipolar but they take an antidepressant that that isn't really
• 31:12
  going to address it or if they have depression and they take did
• 31:15
  i just say that same thing but or vice versa so you really
• 31:18
  don't jump into something just then maybe you know yeah talk
• 31:21
  about it and think about it definitely go to a doctor medication is
• 31:24
  not a bad thing it doesn't make you weak and it's just a helpful
• 31:27
  tool yep absolutely okay i like uh sophia's how to oh here's how to deal with
• 31:33
  test anxiety oh test anxiety is a good one test anxiety is one i'll just super
• 31:37
  quick speed run on that one yeah is it really is is embracing or accepting the
• 31:41
  fact that i am anxious about this test because it goes back to that so many
• 31:45
  people that have things like test anxiety,
• 31:47
  then just they're so worried about the test anxiety that then the test anxiety
• 31:51
  is the thing that is controlling them.
• 31:53
  Back to that. But if I accept the fact that, oh, I'm going to have test anxiety,
• 31:56
  now I can also study and I can acknowledge and there's that test anxiety again.
• 32:01
  It's that concept of where when I talk about acceptance doesn't mean apathy.
• 32:04
  If you look at anxiety in general, if you are so anxious that you want to avoid
• 32:09
  all things that will cause anxiety, then the anxiety is the thing that is in control.
• 32:13
  But if I accept the fact that I'm going to be anxious then i can also
• 32:16
  go and interact with people and i can i can pet my dog
• 32:18
  i can go out and on a run oh and i can also be anxious so
• 32:21
  you're making space or room to have all of those
• 32:24
  feelings and emotions so you have to accept that i will be
• 32:27
  anxious i say this one every time i can't stand being scared at movies but we
• 32:33
  go to scary movies because my throw your popcorn and you cover your eyes because
• 32:37
  my adult kids actually want to go out with me as an adult dad and that blows
• 32:43
  my of mine, but they like scary movies.
• 32:46
  Literally every time if i if i was saying okay i don't want
• 32:49
  to be scared which is fair then i would
• 32:51
  miss out on going out with my kids and their significant
• 32:55
  others and holding my wife's hand and eating popcorn and building
• 32:58
  a connection yeah so sharing that experience literally every time that i'm at
• 33:01
  a scary movie and the lights go down and i do have the popcorn and hopefully
• 33:04
  my riddle is kicked in at that point but then every single time i'm like oh
• 33:08
  i'm not i always say to wendy i'm not ready for this i'm not but but i love
• 33:13
  being when you actually threw the popcorn and And you lifted,
• 33:16
  like you jumped out of your seat and threw your, I was next to you and threw your popcorn.
• 33:21
  How about, how about, um, last time you went to a movie? Is it this side on my face or this side?
• 33:25
  This side. Oh, but it's healing. Nice. Yeah. The scar. I ran into a wall.
• 33:29
  We were at a movie and he ran straight into a wall. That one is,
• 33:32
  that one's pretty rough. And was like. I got my bell rung.
• 33:36
  Like maybe would need stitches. Yeah. And you guys watched and you laughed. We were dying.
• 33:42
  It was so funny. Was it though? It was. I find it hard to progress in a negative environment.
• 33:47
  Oh, Lena, absolutely. And this is where I would love to know more about that
• 33:50
  because there's so much.
• 33:52
  Now, if we go into my favorite therapy modality of ACT, acceptance and commitment
• 33:55
  therapy, that if you're doing things that you really just don't want to do or
• 33:59
  you're in a place where you don't want to be, then we fit that into this concept
• 34:03
  of your... Let me just give the socially compliant goal.
• 34:06
  When I'm doing something that I think I'm supposed to do or else,
• 34:10
  or else somebody will be disappointed in me.
• 34:12
  So if I'm in a place that is negative and I feel like, but I have to be here
• 34:16
  because, I don't know, it's my friends or that sort of thing,
• 34:19
  then I fit that into this bucket of a socially compliant goal.
• 34:22
  And if you're existing in the socially compliant goals, your motivation to be
• 34:27
  there is pretty weak and ineffective because it goes against who you want to be.
• 34:30
  And so that is a sign for you to try to get out of that.
• 34:33
  But I know it can be hard. I feel like there's almost a tie to emotional baseline
• 34:38
  in a sense, but in a shifted way. But if you're in the negative environment,
• 34:42
  I feel like it wouldn't be your emotional baseline, but something is lower overall.
• 34:46
  And so it's harder to progress because...
• 34:49
  It is all negative. What's hard is, Lena, and maybe I can talk about this too.
• 34:53
  I work with enough people that feel like they are stuck, whatever it is,
• 34:56
  wherever they are, stuck in their job, stuck in their relationship, stuck in their family.
• 35:00
  And in those situations, the fact that you're aware of it is the first step.
• 35:03
  Okay, I'm acknowledging that this is not the place that I want to be.
• 35:06
  But then often what we do is even we'll respond immaturely to that.
• 35:10
  We'll make sure that everybody knows that I'm upset or frustrated or I don't want to be here.
• 35:14
  The problem is if those are the people that are, they're being immature,
• 35:18
  they're not being supportive, they're not being curious about your experience
• 35:22
  or then your shutting down is not going to cause them to go,
• 35:25
  oh my gosh, hey, tell me what's going on there, champ.
• 35:28
  So your opportunity for growth there is at first recognizing this isn't somewhere I want to be.
• 35:33
  These aren't the people I want to be around. This isn't the environment that
• 35:36
  I want to be in. And so, just acknowledge that, accept that,
• 35:39
  because then what you can do is you maybe can be able to have a tiny bit of
• 35:43
  control in that environment.
• 35:45
  Whether, man, Viktor Frankl, the book Man's Search for Meaning,
• 35:48
  that, if anybody has not read that, it's a quick read, but he was in a concentration camp.
• 35:53
  Talk about being somewhere that you have no control. And he would say that the
• 35:56
  place that he could live was within his mind, that he just had an opportunity
• 36:01
  to just create narratives, create stories, create spaces in his mind.
• 36:05
  That's deep. It is, and I often think that... I feel like it would normally
• 36:08
  go the opposite way. It typically does go the opposite way, but then your mind is not your safe space.
• 36:13
  Okay, Viktor Frankl... This is a book? Yeah, yeah, Man's Search for Meaning.
• 36:17
  It's really good, Mac. I think it might be in our Kindle library.
• 36:19
  I don't do Kindle. His famous quote is... Well, there's a few.
• 36:24
  He said, The one thing you can't
• 36:25
  take away from me is the way I choose to respond to what you do to me.
• 36:27
  And he says, Ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is,
• 36:30
  but rather must recognize that it is he who is asked.
• 36:34
  But, okay, let me find the one... Smart gun. There's a bunch. There's a...
• 36:39
  Okay. Oh, in every situation, there is a moment to pause and decide how we'll react.
• 36:43
  He just was really about building space between stimulus and response was one
• 36:48
  of his most famous concepts because I've actually taken that and built it into
• 36:52
  my addiction recovery program.
• 36:53
  So when somebody has, in the world of like addiction, if somebody has a thought,
• 36:58
  usually it goes, there's a trigger, a thought and an action.
• 37:01
  And so you're trying to build space. If you can address your triggers, that's ideal.
• 37:05
  So let's say that somebody gets really down or depressed or they act out with
• 37:09
  impulsive or compulsive behaviors whenever they're by themselves or they're
• 37:13
  hungry, angry, lonely, tired.
• 37:15
  They can start to recognize that those are the triggers. So can I make sure
• 37:18
  that I'm with friends? Can I make sure that I'm fed?
• 37:21
  But if I can address that trigger, but then I'm going to have a thought and
• 37:24
  then I'm going to do an action.
• 37:25
  And like that Viktor Frankl concept is, can I build space between thought and
• 37:29
  the action, whether it's by doing something, going for a walk,
• 37:32
  calling a friend, doing pushups, or whether I can now just make room for that
• 37:36
  and notice my thoughts and my emotions, my feelings.
• 37:39
  One of the best places that you can start to raise that baseline or start to
• 37:42
  do self-care is in the way that you respond in a situation.
• 37:45
  And it doesn't mean you have to get mad at somebody or tell them what they're
• 37:49
  doing is wrong. Your response is in your mind.
• 37:52
  That's deep to think of that as self-care, though. It is. Yeah.
• 37:55
  So you can be in an environment where your parents are being kind of jerks or
• 37:59
  your spouse is what I was saying earlier. Yeah.
• 38:02
  And you can then in that moment respond inside even your mind of this is not
• 38:07
  something that I want to be a part of. This is something I want to start to see.
• 38:11
  And you're showing yourself love by doing that. Yeah. That I can start to try to move away from.
• 38:14
  Yeah. That's deep. That is. I need a speed run, my guy. Okay.
• 38:17
  Wait. You keep saying speed run. Because we need to speed run. we're
• 38:20
  getting behind any tips to conquering
• 38:23
  inner critic yeah that your inner critic it's a
• 38:26
  great great question your inner critic is that just constant
• 38:29
  inner monologue inner dialogue and this is why i talk so much about acceptance
• 38:33
  and commitment therapy because i believe that most of our inner critic comes
• 38:37
  from the way that we talk to ourselves the way we beat ourselves up when we
• 38:41
  say man i'm so dumb or i shouldn't have thought that or what's wrong with me
• 38:45
  and this is my big soapbox I like to talk about.
• 38:48
  And this is where the typical way that we talk about a lot of therapists or
• 38:53
  influencers or motivational speakers start from that.
• 38:57
  Your thoughts, you have your stinking thinking, your automatic negative thoughts,
• 39:00
  and then you just have to change it and then you'll be happier.
• 39:03
  Now that can work when somebody has no idea where to start from.
• 39:06
  Just think of it differently.
• 39:08
  But acceptance and commitment therapy is the most beautiful thing because it starts with,
• 39:12
  again, you're the only version of you that's ever walked the face of the earth
• 39:14
  mac you with your nature nurture birth order dna abandonment rejection hopes
• 39:17
  fears dreams and everything that makes you you so you actually think and feel
• 39:21
  the way you do because you do and you're not broken you're human thank you yeah
• 39:24
  thank you and so in that so if your inner critic is saying man you are so dumb
• 39:29
  you shouldn't have handled that way it's okay uh noted noted.
• 39:34
  Onto the next thing yeah so uh because it's when you are just when you're giving
• 39:38
  so much energy or power or focus to that inner critic, that inner critic is,
• 39:43
  you can become differentiated from yourself, from your inner critic.
• 39:46
  So when your inner critic is telling you, you should have known better,
• 39:49
  then it's okay. That's a thought. That is.
• 39:52
  Thank you. Thanks, I guess. And it takes time to do that because you have so
• 39:56
  many thoughts and so many emotions and so many feelings that are happening.
• 39:59
  And try not to say what's wrong with me. Nothing's wrong with you.
• 40:03
  You're going through life literally the very first time.
• 40:05
  Very first time is you. So that is how you're thinking. That is how you're feeling.
• 40:09
  So check that out. That is all that you need to say to that.
• 40:13
  That really is. Your inner critic is trying to say something to you and think it.
• 40:17
  I appreciate you, voice inside my head.
• 40:20
  The very founder of acceptance and commitment therapy, Dr. Stephen Hayes,
• 40:23
  when he started talking about this, I loved it because I swear,
• 40:26
  maybe I'm missing, maybe I'm mixing up stories, but I swear he called his inner
• 40:29
  voice, George. So he'd say, thanks, George.
• 40:32
  And in mine, it's just, okay, thanks brain. I appreciate you saying that because
• 40:36
  I'm going to do a quick check-in.
• 40:37
  Actually, I don't agree that I should have known or what's wrong with me. Nothing.
• 40:42
  And you do that over time. And here's the part that I don't know if this sounds
• 40:45
  good or bad, but over time,
• 40:47
  what it feels like to be you your implicit memory which
• 40:50
  is built on the very slow residue of your lived experience the things
• 40:54
  you think and do and interact and say to yourself that if
• 40:56
  you can start to notice and and make those small changes
• 41:00
  like we talked about earlier then what it can feel like to be you even
• 41:03
  on the inside can start to really really change and i will be
• 41:06
  honest with you i did not know that that was even a thing until
• 41:09
  it becomes a thing and then i don't have
• 41:12
  that inner voice that's the what's wrong with me and i still
• 41:14
  do plenty of dumb things every day but uh
• 41:18
  yeah but even today i looked for
• 41:21
  a remote control that would move a teleprompter
• 41:24
  30 minutes in my office i have teleprompter software yeah and i have this little
• 41:30
  remote control stump found it but the whole time i was noticing that i was could
• 41:34
  have been frustrated i was and i was taking great delight and finding other
• 41:37
  things in the bottom of my backpack and then at 30 minutes later i just okay,
• 41:42
  I am not going to find that to that remote. That is happening.
• 41:45
  Check that out check that out really it was
• 41:48
  okay yeah you didn't hit anything no i didn't i ate a chocolate chip
• 41:51
  muffin top though oh yeah because i did find that in
• 41:54
  your backpack and you ate it no i found it on the stool
• 41:57
  beside me okay from when i bought it um why
• 42:00
  do the people in my life who need therapy the most don't go it's
• 42:03
  frustrating it's super frustrating what do you think they have
• 42:06
  the most work to do and it's too oh it's
• 42:09
  too scary or upsetting for them
• 42:12
  to have to acknowledge that they need the help
• 42:15
  it is interesting they're so far into it that
• 42:18
  it's it's just like we
• 42:21
  need i don't know i feel like like with the narcissist if
• 42:24
  they've confabulated things so far then they don't even think
• 42:27
  that they need help that's a great i see what you're saying you know yeah yeah that's actually
• 42:30
  what yeah what mackey's saying the confabulation thing is an amazing thing what
• 42:33
  we do with our own memory the stories we tell ourselves here i'm talking about the
• 42:35
  good version i'm okay i'm not broken i'm human but if
• 42:38
  it's the i'm never wrong i don't need therapy you need
• 42:41
  therapy now i'm projecting shadow self yeah
• 42:45
  that's the thing yeah because if they would because if
• 42:47
  i would need therapy so many people do the all or nothing
• 42:50
  black or white stuff so much where they're thinking okay if i need therapy then
• 42:53
  that means that i have to admit that there are things that i might have done
• 42:55
  or that i do that that people aren't happy about and then all of a sudden everyone
• 43:00
  is gonna think that i've done that i'm bad or there's so many so much too overwhelming
• 43:05
  to even be a thing so then they just don't it really is huh okay where do we go Oh.
• 43:11
  It's a lot. Okay. Ooh, oh.
• 43:15
  Wait, does this one fit you at all? Any ideas how to deal with an older sibling
• 43:18
  who is controlling? Have you met my older sibling?
• 43:21
  She's the nicest person. Okay. I'm not saying it in a bad way.
• 43:25
  She is so nice. Like, have you seen her? No. Yeah, yeah. I have the nicest older sibling, so I, that.
• 43:30
  I don't know. Yeah, okay. Did you ever relate to that? Yeah, well, no.
• 43:36
  Okay. And I was like, my older sibling and I just, we didn't really talk much.
• 43:41
  So I think if I were just, if I'm just giving generic advice,
• 43:45
  generic advice, throwaway advice, whatever, but not really trying to say that.
• 43:49
  But it goes back to that concept that maybe tonight's theme of becoming differentiated,
• 43:54
  of trying to maintain a connection while holding on to your sense of self,
• 43:57
  which is going to mean boundaries.
• 43:58
  So if the older sibling is controlling, then you will most likely need to find
• 44:03
  a way to start to do things on your own.
• 44:07
  And the unfortunate part is a controlling person is typically controlling because
• 44:11
  it gives them this false sense of self.
• 44:14
  They feel like if they are controlling someone, that then they will...
• 44:18
  Oh, there's a therapist there too.
• 44:21
  She's an AMFT? Yeah, Associate Marriage and Family Therapist. In North? NorCal.
• 44:29
  Tessa. Northern California. Okay. And you buy some building clientele.
• 44:33
  Send me an email, first of all. Tony at TonyOverBay.com.
• 44:37
  And where are you at? In NorCal. And I like trying to help other therapists.
• 44:40
  But advice on building clientele.
• 44:42
  Here's, okay. I would love to know your thoughts on this for real.
• 44:45
  Because this is something that when I was a brand new... Roseville!
• 44:48
  Oh, that's where my... I'm at Roseville.
• 44:50
  Okay. Tessa, are you near me at all? I have an office in Rockland that I go
• 44:53
  to every other Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Let's see. Okay.
• 44:58
  Okay reach out to me that's crazy i know that's cool so i have an
• 45:01
  office in rockland i've got an office in arizona but i go back to rockland every other
• 45:04
  week lead hill do you know where that is yes where i am
• 45:06
  what no no i'm lone tree
• 45:09
  i know where lead hill is i used to be near lead hill yeah okay now i guess
• 45:14
  it's not scary to say i grew up in lincoln yeah is that a lot because we don't
• 45:18
  live there oh yeah yeah but but here's the here's the thing i want to throw
• 45:21
  out there and i think this is one i did i wrote for a newspaper for 10 years for free uh humor column,
• 45:28
  in lincoln in lincoln for for 10 years and
• 45:31
  i would speak places and i just felt like i would
• 45:33
  i spoke a lot huh yeah yeah and and
• 45:37
  i felt like it was just getting your reps in yeah and you just you
• 45:39
  basically just put yourself out there so when people did need
• 45:42
  yeah therapy it's like they knew of you yeah
• 45:45
  you know so then i feel like people like i feel like people just knew
• 45:48
  your name well enough at some point where if they ever
• 45:51
  had anyone say anything they could be like oh well tony does
• 45:54
  something like that and then i started this podcast i started the
• 45:57
  virtual couch 10 years ago now and there's uh
• 46:00
  oh yeah podcast that's almost 500 episodes and i
• 46:02
  think what is challenging there too tessa is that the
• 46:06
  first 100 episodes i felt kind of silly
• 46:08
  i really did and when people was your podcast oh good okay and so when people
• 46:12
  would say things like oh you're still doing that little podcast thing oh you
• 46:16
  said tick me off on the inside and then and then but i would go speak i would
• 46:20
  speak everywhere and i powered through that of people making you feel and there
• 46:24
  were a couple people that would would say they told me that i was giving away my.
• 46:28
  Whatever i forget and but that were those were people that weren't
• 46:31
  doing it they were people that weren't doing that and now um email
• 46:34
  tony at tony overbay.com tessa reach out you're gonna
• 46:37
  have to come on a podcast that'll be fun um but
• 46:40
  at that point though then you were just put getting in the reps and
• 46:43
  consistency and now because what is it for is it like word of mouth is that
• 46:47
  your most are like referrals or what i mean now it's i feel like for what i
• 46:51
  do it's social media but i feel like therapy is not as much therapy i mean still
• 46:55
  though i don't know i don't know so i've got a wait list i get i get a whole
• 46:58
  bunch of referrals it's really yeah anyway actually i probably could.
• 47:06
  I hope he calls. Yeah, I hope he calls her. Okay. Oh, and Tessa said she loves
• 47:09
  the naming it thing that you're talking about. Oh, good. What's DBT?
• 47:15
  I don't know enough about DBT, Sophie.
• 47:18
  That's one thing that really, it's dialectical behavioral therapy,
• 47:20
  DBT. And it's used a lot with things like borderline personality disorder.
• 47:24
  But DBT, there's a couple of things that I just wish I knew more about, and I really don't.
• 47:30
  As a matter of fact, if there's a therapist that listens to this.
• 47:33
  Oh, how's your little therapy thing? if there's a if somebody
• 47:37
  knows of a good dbt therapist please have them reach
• 47:39
  out to me i've never interviewed one on my podcast and i would really like
• 47:42
  to do that yeah okay wait what's a lucy i've thought about being a therapist
• 47:47
  but i'm worried about getting to attach the clients that's a great that's a
• 47:49
  great thought i remember in grad school there was a keep up those boundaries
• 47:54
  yeah how to keep up the balance um it i've never thought about that there was there was a i had a.
• 48:01
  One of my professors was absent and there was a substitute
• 48:04
  that came in one night and she literally talked about she had
• 48:06
  adopted a couple of kids that she had worked with as a therapist like that's
• 48:10
  got to be a bound that's got to be ethical is that allowed i don't think so i
• 48:13
  mean that's what i remember we all thought like what yeah yeah but it
• 48:16
  really is making sure that you i used to be in a there
• 48:19
  like a therapist like a bunch of us would talk about things and now
• 48:22
  i have a couple of associates and so you do group supervision and
• 48:26
  so a therapist is typically gonna maybe have their own therapy group
• 48:29
  or they're gonna do their own therapy or they're going
• 48:31
  to be able to talk about things and that's one of the best
• 48:34
  things that you can do is to have somebody that you can that can kind of check
• 48:38
  you because you can care a lot about other people as well i was like just like
• 48:44
  reading i'm reading over your thing so then i was like you can care about stuff
• 48:48
  okay let's do a couple more but yeah you gotta we're almost gonna we'll go an hour. 10 more minutes.
• 48:54
  Okay, wait, do you want to do this? At the virtual couch.
• 48:58
  Oh, there's so many good ones.
• 49:01
  Okay, there's one that, what does it mean when it has a little thing?
• 49:03
  If it senses anything that might be, like, not okay, it does that,
• 49:07
  and then we get to approve it.
• 49:08
  Yeah, so there's somebody that says, what about dealing with corn?
• 49:13
  This guy wrote a book about it. In your marriage. And that's one where,
• 49:17
  another one where, email me at tony at tonyoverbay.com, because I'm working
• 49:22
  on an episode right now about that.
• 49:24
  I have a lot of thoughts. And you have a book. I do have a book called He's a Corn Addict. Now what?
• 49:32
  An expert and a former addict answer your questions. I play the role of the expert.
• 49:35
  And Joshua Shea, who has a big following on TikTok as well, is that he's the
• 49:40
  addict. And it's a really good book.
• 49:41
  And it's available on all the things. But email him. Yeah, do. Yeah.
• 49:45
  Okay. Oh, okay. Emma Kate, I've come to the conclusion that my husband has a
• 49:49
  set idea of who he believes I am.
• 49:51
  That's such a great way to put that. But it's him assuming the worst.
• 49:54
  Yeah. And that's one where there's so much there.
• 49:57
  So we, when we get in, remember, we talked to Emma last time. Oh, yeah, I know Emma.
• 50:03
  Yeah. Okay. I do know. Yeah. Okay. With Emma.
• 50:07
  So we, when we're in relationships, basically we are putting out a version of
• 50:11
  ourselves and we're saying to the other person, you think this is who I am. Right.
• 50:16
  And then when that person is reacting maybe differently to us,
• 50:20
  then that's that whole concept of the, okay, I'm going to, self-confront and
• 50:23
  say, okay, is this who I am?
• 50:25
  But that doesn't mean that just because that person sees you a certain way,
• 50:29
  that that is who you are. Does that make sense?
• 50:32
  If they see you that way, that doesn't automatically mean that.
• 50:36
  Yeah. Like if I walk around.
• 50:37
  You're still yourself. Yeah. Regardless of what they've decided you are in their mind.
• 50:42
  And so what that becomes, unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your relationship,
• 50:47
  that is your opportunity to decide, is there truth in how this person perceives you?
• 50:53
  Or do you know who you are? And I ultimately say, you do.
• 50:57
  And lately I'm throwing some numbers on it. So, I want you to look at yourself
• 51:01
  as with a 90% solid, maybe 10% flexible sense of self.
• 51:05
  So, you ultimately know who you are.
• 51:08
  And so, when somebody says, well, I think you're somebody else. Oh, do you now?
• 51:12
  That's the 10%. You hold on to that 90%. Exactly. And say, okay,
• 51:15
  I'm willing to hear you, but there's a 90% chance that I know myself better. Yeah. Yeah.
• 51:22
  Because I think so often when somebody feels insecure in the relationship,
• 51:27
  they maybe are coming at it with a 30% solid, 70% flexible sense of self.
• 51:32
  And then they're asking everybody, who do you think I am? How do you think I should do this?
• 51:36
  Right? Yeah. And we make jokes about that. Like, remember at the restaurant
• 51:40
  last night when you said, where are you guys?
• 51:43
  In our seats. because i was like
• 51:45
  oh you'll walk into the restaurant and you will see us funny i
• 51:49
  have well i don't have sometimes i get anxious and
• 51:51
  i like to know things prior okay yeah emailed my social psychology press professor
• 51:57
  all your information because i was telling her how much i love you all and oh
• 52:00
  my gosh you are the best thank you okay that's cute and nice i know that really
• 52:04
  is okay let's do some more we got seven minutes mackie because i know you have
• 52:09
  things that you want to go do,
• 52:12
  You have a life, apparently. Not really. I have one friend. Okay.
• 52:18
  Oh, that... How about that one? Can you speak to that? Okay, Carl 400.
• 52:22
  Dating somebody with past trauma, meaning being cheated on and having trust issues.
• 52:27
  This is a great question. Because we bring our past relationships and our past
• 52:34
  worries and fears into the current relationship.
• 52:37
  Because it's what you know. It's what you know. So it is, you got to give people
• 52:41
  grace with that because it is just what you know and it's hard to just throw that away.
• 52:47
  But I think you need to be able to communicate about it. So let's say this is
• 52:50
  where there's another, so I do a lot in the world of narcissism and emotional immaturity.
• 52:54
  Go check out the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast, which is actually bigger than
• 52:57
  the Virtual Couch podcast.
• 52:59
  But there's another narcissism expert named Dr.
• 53:03
  Ramani. And she talked one time, and I like this.
• 53:06
  I've got my own version of this. where she talked about she called it
• 53:09
  there's a narcissist and then there's a lesser narcissist so i
• 53:12
  like to say there's somebody that's incredibly emotionally immature and they're most
• 53:15
  likely in a relationship with somebody that is is also immature
• 53:18
  that's why we find each other and so when you let's
• 53:21
  say you get out of the relationship with the really narcissistic person
• 53:24
  or the really emotionally immature and now you
• 53:27
  get into a relationship with somebody that's we'll call them more normal and
• 53:30
  now you're the one yeah because of what happened to you in
• 53:33
  this relationship so now when this person says hey i'm
• 53:36
  gonna go hang out with my friends all of a sudden you're like what does
• 53:39
  that mean because when this person said i'm gonna go hang out with my friends
• 53:42
  it did not mean they were hanging out with their friends yeah i fear this is
• 53:44
  me it is most people i'm learning this right
• 53:47
  now right so now when they're like hey i'm gonna i'm gonna
• 53:50
  take a nap i'll get back to you later and you're texting and
• 53:53
  texting and texting and all of a sudden they're like i said
• 53:56
  i would like talk to you later right and so that's
• 53:59
  the one where the reason i'm bringing that up is i think so for carl yeah oh
• 54:02
  oh lena great advice there lots of honesty patience and
• 54:04
  reassurance and i appreciate lena you saying the reassurance because
• 54:08
  i think a lot of times people will jump right to the well i shouldn't have to
• 54:11
  calm their anxiety or i shouldn't have to be that's a them issue no if you're
• 54:16
  in a relationship yeah yeah it is part of committing to that relationship is
• 54:21
  accepting that the other person has i don't want to say baggage but has had.
• 54:26
  Experiences and feels different than you do because they're a different person
• 54:30
  than you. So hopefully they can say okay, check this out.
• 54:33
  And then you can both be curious and come together and heal.
• 54:36
  There it is. There's the puzzle.
• 54:38
  You can help each other heal and then grow stronger in your relationship.
• 54:42
  Absolutely. So if you can have the courage that takes courage. So the reassurance is.
• 54:49
  Should be just a thing. It shouldn't be something that you're fighting or not willing to give. Yeah.
• 54:55
  Yeah. And Danielle brings up a good point that we can integrate in here.
• 54:58
  I feel like knowing yourself is hard because isn't that ever changing?
• 55:01
  Absolutely. Because it's the first time that you are in these situations.
• 55:04
  And you should be changing.
• 55:04
  That's good. That's growing. It is. So when you're in the relationship and all
• 55:07
  of a sudden now, when that person says, I'm going to hang out with my friends,
• 55:10
  do you have the courage to say, Hey, check this out.
• 55:12
  Oh, and Lena, a good partner can be very healing. So check this out.
• 55:15
  When you say that, here's where I go.
• 55:17
  Because if that partner says well geez i guess i'll never go
• 55:20
  out with my friends again right run is that
• 55:22
  too extreme but if you're but if they're
• 55:25
  like oh man tell me about that what's that what's that like yeah carl
• 55:28
  been with her five years and there's still some times where she has the fear of cheating the
• 55:32
  sometimes is the question i'd have carl because that's fair
• 55:34
  um i think a lot of times when people have been hurt they're especially
• 55:38
  to as somebody that has been cheated on it does some
• 55:41
  damage like because you
• 55:44
  can be with the like you can be with a partner that you
• 55:47
  completely trust wholeheartedly and that
• 55:50
  still or that pain pops up
• 55:54
  sometimes and it's very or personally for me
• 55:57
  like having feeling that being with a good partner that I do trust it's very
• 56:01
  frustrating like all I'm saying is give her some grace because it's very frustrating
• 56:06
  when those feelings come up and you can logically say i know that my partner
• 56:11
  would not do these things yeah but there's still this.
• 56:16
  Thanks okay trauma there's or like this or it's
• 56:18
  a thought and it does pop in your head and then it's hard to let that thought
• 56:22
  go i would say though you've done a nice job though bringing you had the courage
• 56:25
  to be known yeah right because it is it's just about communicating and so i
• 56:29
  feel like if anything that is like a you're allowed to open up that conversation with her yeah and.
• 56:39
  Do you believe that fear will ever go away or she'll still live with it
• 56:41
  it's a great question i really think there's a old proverb or
• 56:44
  that i like where it was uh it's where
• 56:48
  okay so this person comes and they go to the
• 56:50
  it's like a i want to say a chinese proverb or buddhist proverb where the person
• 56:55
  goes to their master and they say okay they pour salt in a glass of water and
• 56:59
  they have them drink of it with a straw the water is really salty then they
• 57:03
  go to a lake which this is a part that i think is kind of gross because they're
• 57:06
  going to drink out of the lake but that's maybe my ADHD talking,
• 57:08
  but then they go back and they pour the same amount of salt in the lake.
• 57:11
  And then he says, okay, drink from a straw in there. And then you can't taste any of the salt.
• 57:14
  So it's like the salt's still in there, but you're starting,
• 57:16
  you make that much room for it.
• 57:18
  So the more trust you have in the relationship over time and the more that you're
• 57:21
  able to, and I was going to say earlier too, I use this phrase a lot in my couple's
• 57:25
  therapy of testing for safety.
• 57:26
  And I think it's okay to, for the guy in this situation, Carl,
• 57:29
  you to know that on occasion she may still just throw out a test for safety.
• 57:34
  And when it's not that she's saying she doesn't trust you or saying she really
• 57:39
  thinks you're going to do something like that.
• 57:41
  But it is like a, yeah, it's that fear of abandonment and fear of getting hurt and all of that.
• 57:46
  So if you are showing up in a human who feels things, right.
• 57:49
  And if you're, and if you're solid, this is where I like, if you're solid with
• 57:52
  yourself, then if, if she is testing for safety, then I'm going to say,
• 57:56
  man, I appreciate you sharing that. That would be hard if you still find yourself.
• 58:00
  And you can have that conversation.
• 58:03
  Now, honestly, and I don't know your situation.
• 58:06
  I did an episode on attachment. Go find it on the virtual couch a couple of weeks ago.
• 58:11
  And I talked about your attachment orientation. So we still talked about anxious
• 58:14
  attachment, avoidant attachment, disorganized attachment.
• 58:17
  But the reason I did it was because there's some new research that came out
• 58:21
  that's talking about, let's call it your attachment orientation.
• 58:23
  And it's the way that you bring your attachment issues into the relationship,
• 58:28
  but you can change them with that awareness.
• 58:30
  But the reason I did the whole podcast was based on one line that talked about
• 58:33
  remembering that the things you're bringing into the relationship ultimately
• 58:37
  are things that you are carrying from your childhood.
• 58:39
  So I have seen situations where
• 58:41
  somebody can show up and this is why differentiation is so beautiful.
• 58:44
  I can show up and be the very best version of myself. I can choose myself.
• 58:47
  I can stay grounded. I can not play small.
• 58:49
  I can own my own stuff. I can make changes.
• 58:52
  And that person may still not choose me.
• 58:56
  And that's and ultimately that is a them issue. and
• 58:59
  that's hard because I've worked with a couple of people in particular lately
• 59:02
  that have shown up the very best version of their self
• 59:05
  and the other person is I think wounded from
• 59:09
  childhood that then they still cannot be
• 59:13
  in the relationship and a lot of times when we
• 59:16
  get into relationships we're so codependent we're so enmeshed because
• 59:19
  we're everybody's immature going into relationships because
• 59:22
  we don't know we don't know and then you go through things and you get the tools and
• 59:26
  you start to communicate more effectively but then your partner may
• 59:29
  still not trust or they may still have really
• 59:31
  difficult situations that they still project
• 59:35
  onto you or do you see i'm going there yeah yeah
• 59:39
  it's complicated it is but i
• 59:42
  mean with that is the relationship ever easy or is it always a fixer-upper that's
• 59:46
  like i like the fixer-upper part because at some points yeah it's two
• 59:49
  imperfect people coming together and trying to build a
• 59:52
  life with each other and there is always going to be i don't
• 59:55
  think it doesn't mean there has to be screaming and yelling and fighting and
• 1:00:00
  anything like that but it doesn't mean that things are just going to be perfect
• 1:00:04
  and easy well chris i'll catch you before we go real quick i've seen you've
• 1:00:07
  said that before yeah but it's not gonna be perfect and easy 24 7 and there
• 1:00:10
  are gonna be like it's gonna ebb and flow of.
• 1:00:14
  All the things yeah and that's that can
• 1:00:17
  still be normal and healthy yeah but that doesn't mean just assume if
• 1:00:20
  there is screaming and yelling and constant fighting that that's not
• 1:00:23
  normal no exactly healthy and so imagine this
• 1:00:26
  and i'm not even trying to be funny but this is where what it
• 1:00:30
  is so normal in a relationship to get to the point where all you talk about
• 1:00:33
  are the things that are easy because the things that are difficult to talk about
• 1:00:36
  are so hard and it's because we didn't learn how to we're so afraid of contention
• 1:00:41
  that we avoid tension in the relationship altogether and so learning that growth
• 1:00:44
  comes from the discomfort learning how to self-soothe and to show up and know that.
• 1:00:50
  It's easier to run away from my anxiety and my fear than to confront it.
• 1:00:54
  But when you start to get, I always say you get your reps and repetitions,
• 1:00:58
  your practice in becoming differentiated, that you over time,
• 1:01:02
  again, things take a lot longer than we think.
• 1:01:04
  But over time, when you notice that you are wanting to have a difficult conversation
• 1:01:08
  rather than kicking that can down the road and saying, you know what, I'll do it later.
• 1:01:12
  Then you know that, okay, we're going to learn more about each other through this conversation.
• 1:01:18
  And that's where really go find me on
• 1:01:20
  the virtual couch look up my four pillars of a connected conversation because
• 1:01:24
  there i have an amazing framework where i'm assuming
• 1:01:27
  good intentions that person is not trying to hurt me
• 1:01:30
  with the way they're showing up it is making me uncomfortable i
• 1:01:32
  can't tell them they're wrong or i don't believe them even if i think they're wrong or
• 1:01:35
  i don't believe them because if i start going down that path we're going to go out in the weeds
• 1:01:38
  and we're just going to start and tip for tat and then i'm
• 1:01:41
  going to go into questions before comments i'm going to be curious i'm
• 1:01:44
  going to say tell me more about that what is that like for you but i got to
• 1:01:46
  step out of my own ego it's going to be really awkward and then i'm going to stay present i'm
• 1:01:49
  not going to go into a victim mindset and anyway there's a lot
• 1:01:52
  there and i've got a marriage course update coming out soon and
• 1:01:55
  leave it there yeah that one right okay chris thanks
• 1:01:58
  for sticking with us because i i have a severe adhd um i have temporary paralysis
• 1:02:03
  from severe adhd and anxiety advice so one of the best things i think you can
• 1:02:07
  do if you've been diagnosed with adhd please read the book ADHD 2.0 by Hallowell
• 1:02:12
  and Rattay. I make jokes often and I say it's my Bible.
• 1:02:16
  It's an amazing book because there are so many things about ADHD that I think
• 1:02:21
  we're learning more about now.
• 1:02:22
  It has some of the best concepts where ADHD, it's like we have a Ferrari engine
• 1:02:28
  and we have bicycle brakes.
• 1:02:29
  It's that we have to find the right kind of difficult. It's understanding that
• 1:02:33
  what executive functioning challenges really look like.
• 1:02:36
  There's this teeter-totter of thinking and doing thinking and
• 1:02:39
  doing and apparently people can think about things and
• 1:02:42
  not want to do something else or do things and not think about something
• 1:02:45
  else but the adhd brain our teeter-totter kind
• 1:02:48
  of broke so when i'm thinking about something all of a sudden i think i want
• 1:02:51
  to do something else look at that and when i'm doing something all of a sudden
• 1:02:54
  that makes me want to think about something else and so it's accepting and learning
• 1:02:57
  how to deal with those wonderful challenges when you find the right kind of
• 1:03:01
  difficult then you really can thrive and it's interesting because
• 1:03:05
  there's some thought where people want to call it VAST,
• 1:03:09
  variable attention stimulus trait, rather than attention deficit disorder.
• 1:03:13
  It's not in a deficit of attention when you find the right kind of difficult.
• 1:03:17
  And then when you can do something until all of a sudden you don't want to do it.
• 1:03:20
  And that's been one of the greatest things for me personally is I spent 10 years
• 1:03:24
  in a career I hated, the computer industry.
• 1:03:26
  And when I found therapy, all of a sudden I get to see a client and then another
• 1:03:31
  one is completely different and then another one.
• 1:03:33
  And then I can write and I can go speak and I can do a podcast.
• 1:03:36
  And you're finding that right kind of difficult. And then there's so many things in that book as well.
• 1:03:41
  The concepts around rejection sensitivity that those
• 1:03:44
  of us with adhd we were told no some believe 10
• 1:03:47
  to 20 000 times more by the time we were 12 or 13 or
• 1:03:50
  whatever it is even just not just like no but not now
• 1:03:53
  buddy or you know you seem like a whole lot and so we have anticipatory rejection
• 1:03:57
  so we're sometimes going into things anticipating rejection which can cause
• 1:04:01
  anxiety which can cause a temporary paralysis and and then they have a beautiful
• 1:04:06
  section on connection vitamin c that we really do need connection with others,
• 1:04:11
  but it can be difficult again because of that rejection sensitivity.
• 1:04:14
  And ADHD, if you really have it, is one of the most efficacious.
• 1:04:19
  It's one of the most successfully things treated through medication.
• 1:04:22
  And that section alone talks about how people with.
• 1:04:26
  Undiagnosed or untreated ADHD, it's a
• 1:04:29
  significant portion that turned to unhealthy coping
• 1:04:32
  mechanisms because we do we just we
• 1:04:35
  we are impulsive there sometimes it's
• 1:04:38
  the fun kind of impulsive other times it's the not so fun kind
• 1:04:41
  so there's a lot there that can be done and and is
• 1:04:44
  your contact yeah yeah yeah and as
• 1:04:47
  a again as a card carrying member of the adhd club
• 1:04:50
  which i didn't get my diagnosis till nine ten years ago
• 1:04:53
  in my mid-40s it's i i do i that's one of the biggest things where when i say
• 1:04:58
  i have to accept the fact that i can i wish i would have gotten my diagnosis
• 1:05:02
  sooner so do everything you can to find out more about adhd and know that it
• 1:05:07
  can be once you if you have it and you embrace it it's it can be a fun time i'm a pretty fun hang,
• 1:05:13
  Oh, yeah. I don't think you're paying
• 1:05:15
  attention. And I feel rejection very sensitively. You're fine. Thank you.
• 1:05:19
  Okay. Everybody, what a wonderful time. Mackie, thank you for showing up tonight. I appreciate it.
• 1:05:25
  And we're trying to do these every Sunday night. So if we didn't get to your question, come back.
• 1:05:31
  Oh, and if Sydney was here, she would say that she's going to put this up on YouTube in a few days.
• 1:05:35
  And then I put in the thing that you were on here tonight. Go follow you at Mackie.
• 1:05:41
  Mackie Overbank. And follow her at Mackieoverbay on iwasnay.com,
• 1:05:45
  but not really. It's on the ticking talk.
• 1:05:47
  Right? Follow me. Follow you.
• 1:05:52
  Thanks, Mack. I'm hungry. I'm too. I think that's why I tapped out a little bit. You did good.
• 1:05:58
  Thanks. Yeah. All right. Here's the part where I awkwardly...
• 1:06:01
  20 minutes to find the ending it button. Yeah. Okay.
• 1:06:05
  Thanks, everybody. Have a wonderful time. I was going to say,
• 1:06:08
  we'll see you next time on the virtual couch. This is not the podcast.
• 1:06:10
  Wake up to narcissism. Virtual couch. Wait, I've answered, if you're interested
• 1:06:13
  in talking it, just email contact at tonyoverbay.com. You, yeah.
• 1:06:18
  And I'm, uh, I'll, yeah, I'll do more Q&A podcast episodes throughout the week as well.
• 1:06:23
  Have you even thought about, every now and again, I'll get a cancellation and
• 1:06:26
  somebody will say, oh, I'm so sorry I can't make it, but of course I know I
• 1:06:28
  have to pay you, which is like the greatest client in the world.
• 1:06:31
  And in those situations, I've thought, I should just go live and answer questions.
• 1:06:34
  Yeah, you should. I'd be all by myself.
• 1:06:37
  What's up?
• 1:06:38
  Music.