Latest / The Ben Ferguson Podcast / How To Not Destroy Our Government ft. Senator Mike Lee

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How To Not Destroy Our Government ft. Senator Mike Lee · The Ben Ferguson Podcast

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Speaker 1: is a Woman dot Com? What is a woman dot Com?
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Speaker 1: And join Matt on this cultural battle What is a
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Speaker 1: woman dot Com? Not just one, but two senators in
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Speaker 1: this episode, not just one guy who's written a book
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Speaker 1: about the Supreme Court, but two guys who have written
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Speaker 1: a book about the Supreme Court. And both guys really
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Speaker 1: really don't think that the Democrats should pack at Senator Cruz,
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Speaker 1: as always, thank you for being on your own show.
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Speaker 1: And Senator Lee, thank you so much for being here.
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Speaker 1: A senator from Utah, Mike Lee, an expert on the
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Speaker 1: Supreme Court and the author of a wonderful new book
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Speaker 1: on how we can save the nine Justices and not
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Speaker 1: destroy one of the branches of our government. I will
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Speaker 1: tell you, Michael, two interesting bits of trivia that has
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Speaker 1: to with our guest on the pod today. Number One,
5:04
Speaker 1: he is the first Supreme Court clerk in the history
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Speaker 1: of the United States to become a United States Senator.
5:10
Speaker 1: There have been clerks for many, many years, no clerk
5:14
Speaker 1: had ever become a Senator until Mike was elected. There
5:17
Speaker 1: now four so Mike got elected the same year as
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Speaker 1: Richard Blumenthal, who was a clerk for Harry Blackman, so
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Speaker 1: they were together the first two. I was the third,
5:26
Speaker 1: and then Josh Holly's the fourth. But prior to twenty ten,
5:29
Speaker 1: when Mike got elected, no clerk had ever gone to
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Speaker 1: the Senate. But secondly, and I want Mike to amplify
5:35
Speaker 1: on that in a second. But secondly, he is also
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Speaker 1: the only person I know, and certainly the only Senator
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Speaker 1: I know, whom Harry Reid has locked in a garage.
5:46
Speaker 1: Harry Reid's son Josh, became my best friend when I
5:50
Speaker 1: was in the sixth grade. This was while my dad
5:52
Speaker 1: was serving as a solicitor General and there was this
5:56
Speaker 1: new congressman elected from Nevada elected to the House. Harry
6:00
Speaker 1: Reid and his son Josh became my friend and I
6:03
Speaker 1: got to know him well. One day, for no particular reason, Harry,
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Speaker 1: who liked to play practical jokes, figured out a way
6:10
Speaker 1: to lock us into the garage. We couldn't get it
6:12
Speaker 1: out of it, either in through the house or out
6:15
Speaker 1: the garage door, so we just rode bikes and skateboards
6:18
Speaker 1: in there for a few hours. It was a lot
6:19
Speaker 1: of fun. Harry was an eccentric guy, and he had
6:23
Speaker 1: a wonderful sense of humor. He was always very nice
6:25
Speaker 1: to me. You know, we disagreed on almost everything politically,
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Speaker 1: but until the moment he left the Senate, he would
6:32
Speaker 1: bring me into his office periodically just to ask how
6:35
Speaker 1: my family was doing and check in on me. He
6:39
Speaker 1: was a wonderful person in many respects. Michael. This is
6:43
Speaker 1: reflective of the relationships that exist within the Senate and
6:46
Speaker 1: also within the Supreme Court, relationships that transcend party affiliation
6:51
Speaker 1: and political ideology of every kind. It actually is a
6:57
Speaker 1: place where the relationships are much better than the appear
7:00
Speaker 1: on TV. That is good to hear, though, Senator Lee,
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Speaker 1: I don't want to just skip over read left you
7:06
Speaker 1: in the garage for hours. This wasn't a fifteen minute
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Speaker 1: practical joke. That's that man. He has real hootspa and stamina,
7:14
Speaker 1: or certainly he did. That's a great story. Yeah. My
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Speaker 1: wife used to joke that maybe Harry had accidentally sparked
7:20
Speaker 1: the creation of the Tea party movement by doing so.
7:23
Speaker 1: It may have been overstanding it, but that's a good observation.
7:26
Speaker 1: A Senator Cruz, I guess I'll have you lead it off,
7:29
Speaker 1: because I know basically nothing about the Supreme Court beyond
7:33
Speaker 1: what I learned from the bill up on Capitol Hill
7:35
Speaker 1: in Schoolhouse Rock. But I do know from reading the
7:40
Speaker 1: news that the Supreme Court appears to be in greater
7:44
Speaker 1: peril than at any time in my life. Support for
7:47
Speaker 1: the court. Trust in the court seems to be dropping.
7:51
Speaker 1: You have this major decision that could be coming out
7:53
Speaker 1: after the leaked opinion, which itself seemed unprecedented, and now
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Speaker 1: you've got major calls to bed the whole institution. Well, look,
8:02
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. The Left is launching unprecedented attacks at
8:06
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, at the rule of law, at the Constitution.
8:09
Speaker 1: They're trying to politicize the Court. They're trying to intimidate
8:13
Speaker 1: and bully the justices. They're trying to directly threaten their families.
8:17
Speaker 1: They're sending angry protesters to their homes to threaten their families.
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Speaker 1: And all of this is a naked desire attempt to
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Speaker 1: destroy one of the foundational institutions that protects our fundamental liberties.
8:33
Speaker 1: You know, I have to say, I'm really glad that
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Speaker 1: Mike is joining us again on verdict. So Mike is
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Speaker 1: now the first and only repeat guest on this podcast.
8:44
Speaker 1: He was an early guest, and he's now the first
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Speaker 1: recitivist to be back, and he's back with a brand
8:52
Speaker 1: new book. Mike, tell us about your brand new book.
8:55
Speaker 1: What's the title, where can they get it? And why
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Speaker 1: is it essential that they rush out and buy it
8:59
Speaker 1: right now? The name of the book is Saving Nine.
9:02
Speaker 1: I wrote Saving Nine because a little over a year
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Speaker 1: ago I started seeing all the warning signs that the
9:07
Speaker 1: Left was getting ready to pack the Supreme Court, something
9:09
Speaker 1: they haven't tried since nineteen thirty seven. As soon as
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Speaker 1: I realized that they might actually be serious, I started
9:17
Speaker 1: thinking about it, and I realized, oh my gosh, nobody's
9:19
Speaker 1: comprehensively written, at least in modern times, a book explaining
9:24
Speaker 1: how you defeat this and why it needs to be defeated.
9:27
Speaker 1: But I had long been of the belief that one
9:30
Speaker 1: of the worst things that happened in American constitutional history
9:34
Speaker 1: was in nineteen thirty seven. It's my belief, and that
9:37
Speaker 1: belief is borne out in Saving Nine, where I tell
9:40
Speaker 1: the story of Associate Justice Owen Roberts flipping his vote
9:44
Speaker 1: in a seminal case called NLRB versus Jones and Laughlin Steele.
9:48
Speaker 1: That case was decided on April twelfth, nineteen thirty seven,
9:51
Speaker 1: two years from to date that the Supreme Court had
9:53
Speaker 1: moved into its new marble palace, first time in history
9:57
Speaker 1: it had had its own courthouse. Associate Justice Owen Roberts
10:01
Speaker 1: flipped his vote in that case and effectively redefined the
10:04
Speaker 1: Commerce Clause. He amended the Constitution as it were. Had
10:08
Speaker 1: it been a constitutional amendment, this would have been among
10:11
Speaker 1: the most impactful constitutional amendments ever adopted into the Constitution
10:16
Speaker 1: because it changed the nature of the federal government. It
10:19
Speaker 1: turned it from a limited purpose federal government into a
10:22
Speaker 1: general purpose national government. All of this because Owen Roberts
10:26
Speaker 1: was afraid of FDR's threats. It worked. Even though FDRs
10:31
Speaker 1: court packing plan failed legislatively, it succeeded and left an
10:35
Speaker 1: ugly indelible mark, one that's costing the American people dearly
10:39
Speaker 1: to this day. So you're pointing out that even though
10:43
Speaker 1: by the numbers, FDR's plan did not work, the political
10:46
Speaker 1: pressure that came about because of that really did transform
10:50
Speaker 1: the Court. So is there something about the number nine
10:55
Speaker 1: I don't want to diminish your book sales by having
10:57
Speaker 1: you give away the answer into the main quest of
11:00
Speaker 1: the book. But what is it about this number nine
11:03
Speaker 1: that is so important? The number has changed over the
11:05
Speaker 1: course of the court, though it hasn't changed in recent
11:07
Speaker 1: memory for the not just for Republicans or Democrats, or
11:11
Speaker 1: conservatives or liberals, but for the functioning of our republic.
11:15
Speaker 1: Why is nine the right number to keep? So? As
11:17
Speaker 1: I explained in chapter two of Saving Nine, there's nothing
11:21
Speaker 1: magical about the number nine. It's not foreordained by the Constitution.
11:25
Speaker 1: It's anything that. It's not the inexorable result of common sense.
11:31
Speaker 1: It is rather a compromise that was reached. It was
11:34
Speaker 1: a number that we arrived at as a country in
11:38
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty nine. So for more than a century and
11:41
Speaker 1: a half it's worked, and we've stuck with it because
11:44
Speaker 1: it works. The Court isn't understaff. There's no need from
11:48
Speaker 1: a human resources standpoint to add justices to spread the
11:52
Speaker 1: work around. Now, it's not that at all. It's just
11:54
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden well number one. He views himself as
11:57
Speaker 1: the modern reincarnation of Franklin D. Roosevelt's something that's very
12:00
Speaker 1: scary in and of itself. But number two, he wants
12:04
Speaker 1: to pack the court so we can change the court,
12:07
Speaker 1: so we can remake it in its own image, so
12:09
Speaker 1: that the court can be brought to heal to do
12:11
Speaker 1: his will and make sure that whatever he wants goes
12:15
Speaker 1: on the court. Well, you know, if if Joe Biden
12:18
Speaker 1: were here, Mike, I think he'd say, Mike, I knew FDR.
12:22
Speaker 1: FDR was a friend of mine, and I think he
12:26
Speaker 1: probably thinks he's talking to Eleanor Roosevelt. Now, well, this
12:29
Speaker 1: was one of my favorite observations in the book. Actually
12:32
Speaker 1: is I didn't realize, Senator Lee, I knew that both
12:36
Speaker 1: of you, gentlemen, have a long history with the court.
12:38
Speaker 1: Senator Cruz, you clerked for a Chief Justice ran Quist.
12:41
Speaker 1: You've argued cases before the court. Senator Lee, you clerked
12:45
Speaker 1: for Justice Alito. And also your father was the Solicitor
12:50
Speaker 1: General the United States under Ronald Reagan. So you've got
12:54
Speaker 1: this chapter in the book where you talk about going
12:56
Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court as a kid, and I loved
12:59
Speaker 1: your scription of walking up the steps of the Supreme Court.
13:04
Speaker 1: And even though obviously the courts right there in Washington,
13:06
Speaker 1: d c. You describe it as feeling as though you're
13:09
Speaker 1: leaving the petty swamp of Washington and going into a
13:13
Speaker 1: place with a little more dignity that might be a
13:16
Speaker 1: little bit above the usual fray of politics. That's right,
13:21
Speaker 1: it was. It was different than any proceeding I had
13:23
Speaker 1: ever been a part of. It was different than other
13:26
Speaker 1: government offices that I had ever seen. There was a
13:29
Speaker 1: reverence for the court, and there was a careful deliberation
13:32
Speaker 1: that I saw in there. You know, at the age
13:34
Speaker 1: of ten, when I started watching Supreme Court arguments for fun,
13:37
Speaker 1: I didn't understand everything that was going on. I didn't
13:40
Speaker 1: understand most of it. It felt like church in a
13:42
Speaker 1: foreign language. You had old still you had to be
13:44
Speaker 1: really quiet and pay close attention. But over time I
13:48
Speaker 1: started figuring out the rhythm of the place, and I
13:51
Speaker 1: developed a great respect for it. My late father taught
13:55
Speaker 1: me that, you know, even when you disagree with the
13:57
Speaker 1: court's ruling, you've got to respect the court because our
14:00
Speaker 1: entire system depends on the integrity and the independence of
14:04
Speaker 1: the court, and that this is not a tribunal. This
14:08
Speaker 1: is not a court that sometimes does good things and
14:11
Speaker 1: is mostly bad. It's quite the opposite. It's a good court.
14:15
Speaker 1: It's the best of its kind. I believe anywhere in
14:17
Speaker 1: the world, warts and all, it is a court that
14:21
Speaker 1: is basically good, that sometimes makes mistakes because it's run
14:24
Speaker 1: by mortals. But what Joe Biden and the Democrats are
14:28
Speaker 1: trying to do, they're trying to demonize and delegitimize the Court.
14:31
Speaker 1: They're trying to isolate those justices who dare to actually
14:34
Speaker 1: interpret the Constitution based on what it says, and they
14:38
Speaker 1: want to remake it in their own image in order
14:40
Speaker 1: to achieve a different policy outcome. The minute you do that,
14:43
Speaker 1: you rip off that band aid, bad things will happen.
14:47
Speaker 1: And it's not limited to abortion. This will extend into
14:50
Speaker 1: all sorts of other things, and it will end up
14:52
Speaker 1: reflecting the political will of power incumbents, principally presidents of
14:57
Speaker 1: the United States. So let me take a digre in here.
15:00
Speaker 1: You know, Michael, you and I have talked about how
15:03
Speaker 1: Mike is my closest friend in the Senate by far.
15:06
Speaker 1: I love this man. Um, he is both his staff
15:11
Speaker 1: and my staff get frightened when we get together. Um.
15:14
Speaker 1: It is not over boozed because Mike is a teetotaler.
15:17
Speaker 1: Although being Cuban, Irish and Italian I am not, as
15:20
Speaker 1: as mister Knowles can attest, since since between Scotch and cigars,
15:24
Speaker 1: we have killed a few liver cells together. But but
15:29
Speaker 1: when when Mike and I get together, we we geek
15:32
Speaker 1: out as law geeks in a way that really scares
15:35
Speaker 1: our staff and that they're actually like, okay, enough of this,
15:38
Speaker 1: like like like, But but I gotta say, I want
15:40
Speaker 1: to take a digression for something. You two we're talking
15:42
Speaker 1: about a second ago, which is Mike's dad. So so
15:45
Speaker 1: I never had the privilege of knowing Mike's dad, but
15:49
Speaker 1: he is a legendary so listen. The position of Solicitor
15:52
Speaker 1: General of the United States is a unique position in
15:57
Speaker 1: our nation's history. It is the only position in all
16:01
Speaker 1: of government that is required by statute. It is written
16:04
Speaker 1: into statute that the Solicitor General must be learned in
16:08
Speaker 1: the law. That is a requirement of the job. And
16:13
Speaker 1: there have been legendary solicitors general. There have been legendary
16:18
Speaker 1: solicitors general who were among the finest advocates ever to
16:23
Speaker 1: be in those marbled halls. And I say with no
16:28
Speaker 1: exaggeration that universally, Mike's dad is considered one of the
16:33
Speaker 1: finest Solicitors General to have ever served. He is considered
16:36
Speaker 1: to be simply an extraordinary Supreme Court advocate, and Mike
16:41
Speaker 1: is a kid. One of the reasons I love hanging
16:42
Speaker 1: out with Mike because he literally grew up watching arguments
16:47
Speaker 1: and around the dinner table debating bills of attainder and
16:52
Speaker 1: debating obscure obscure aspects of the Constitution. On one occasion,
16:58
Speaker 1: he was arguing a case on behalf of the corporation
17:01
Speaker 1: of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ
17:04
Speaker 1: of Latter day Saints, and there was a question in
17:07
Speaker 1: there about a janitor who had not obeyed the teachings
17:11
Speaker 1: of the church. Justice Scalia asked him a question. Okay,
17:14
Speaker 1: so this janitor, if he were a good member of
17:16
Speaker 1: the church, he would neither drink nor smoke. My dad
17:18
Speaker 1: said something to the the effect of yes, Justice Scalia, and
17:21
Speaker 1: that's a lot more than I can say for some
17:23
Speaker 1: of the Catholics I know. Apparently, the courtroom entirely quiet.
17:29
Speaker 1: You could hear a pin drop because everybody was nervous
17:32
Speaker 1: about what was going to happen. Fortunately for my dad,
17:35
Speaker 1: Justice Scalia belted out laughing, and the rest of the
17:38
Speaker 1: court joined him, but he developed this kind of fluidity,
17:41
Speaker 1: this kind of comfort with the court. It was not impertinence,
17:44
Speaker 1: it was respect, but a degree of familiarity that helped
17:48
Speaker 1: them trust him. We have this sense right now that
17:53
Speaker 1: things used to be more cordial, they used to be
17:56
Speaker 1: more professional, the Court used to function a little bit better,
18:00
Speaker 1: and now it's not functioning well, and you're getting leaked
18:03
Speaker 1: draft opinions for goodness sakes, and you're getting really petty fights,
18:07
Speaker 1: especially between the other branches of government, Chuck Schumer saying
18:10
Speaker 1: we're coming for you, Bret Gavinaugh, I mean direct threats
18:14
Speaker 1: to the justices. What is your historical sense here? Are
18:18
Speaker 1: our conditions at the court really at some relative low
18:22
Speaker 1: right now? Or is nostalgiais history after a few drinks?
18:27
Speaker 1: And have things really always been just about this bad? Well,
18:30
Speaker 1: first of all, I don't think we should confuse a
18:32
Speaker 1: lack of decorum and cordiality and civility among and between
18:37
Speaker 1: the justices within the Court itself. I think it's in
18:41
Speaker 1: pretty good shape. I mean, we're certainly better often we
18:45
Speaker 1: were in other prior eras, like with Associate Justice James McReynolds,
18:52
Speaker 1: who was openly contemptuous of a number of his colleagues.
18:56
Speaker 1: He was bigoted, he was mean, he was rude, and
18:59
Speaker 1: that's sort of thing happened in previous eras of the court.
19:03
Speaker 1: You don't have that today. I think you actually have
19:06
Speaker 1: a pretty healthy degree of respect and civility among in
19:10
Speaker 1: between the justices. But this one is different. You're what
19:13
Speaker 1: you're getting up, Michael, is a very significant thing. We
19:15
Speaker 1: have never ever had a draft opinion of the court
19:19
Speaker 1: leak like this, for reasons I don't entirely understand, or
19:23
Speaker 1: maybe I do. The mainstream media keeps trying to downplay
19:27
Speaker 1: this leak by saying, oh, leaks have happened. Leaksh Meg,
19:30
Speaker 1: It's not that big of a deal. Happens all the time. Well, yeah, so,
19:33
Speaker 1: once or twice in a decade, somebody will leak a
19:37
Speaker 1: rumor about which way a case is going to be decided.
19:40
Speaker 1: It's like betting on the roulette table, red or black.
19:44
Speaker 1: You've got a fifty shot at being right, and so
19:48
Speaker 1: sometimes those predictions would turn out to be correct. None
19:52
Speaker 1: of them or anything like this where somebody took a
19:54
Speaker 1: draft majority opinion and leaked it. This is horrendous. So
19:58
Speaker 1: this speaks not ill of the justices themselves, I believe,
20:02
Speaker 1: but of everyone around the court. The way others treat
20:07
Speaker 1: the court has changed. And what you were pointing out
20:10
Speaker 1: a moment ago, Michael, is very significant. Chuck Schumer going
20:13
Speaker 1: to the steps of the Supreme Court talking about unleashing
20:15
Speaker 1: the whirlwind. I mean, what's up with that? The fact
20:19
Speaker 1: that you would have I suspect a law clerk with
20:23
Speaker 1: the temerity to go out and violate everything we know
20:29
Speaker 1: about an attorney's duty of confidentiality and about attorney's duty
20:35
Speaker 1: to safeguard property and material that's not his or her
20:39
Speaker 1: own and leak it to the press. There's something terribly
20:42
Speaker 1: wrong with that, especially because I suspect what we will
20:45
Speaker 1: find is whoever did it knew that they would likely
20:48
Speaker 1: be disbarred and we'll never practice law again, but also
20:51
Speaker 1: knew that they'd probably get a tenured track faculty position
20:54
Speaker 1: at Yale for it, and an anchor position at MSNBC
21:00
Speaker 1: millions of dollars a year. That's what's new, and that's frightened.
21:04
Speaker 1: When Mike and I were both clerks at the Court
21:06
Speaker 1: that the two justices who were the closest friends were
21:10
Speaker 1: Justice Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg and they hung out,
21:13
Speaker 1: they went to operas together. They're very different. It was
21:16
Speaker 1: almost like the odd couple, like you know, Felix and Oscar.
21:21
Speaker 1: You know, he was the ebulent, loud, Italian conservative. She
21:27
Speaker 1: was the librarian ish, prim and proper. But they got
21:31
Speaker 1: along beautifully. I remember Center a beautiful photo of them.
21:35
Speaker 1: I believe they went to India or something together, or Egypt.
21:39
Speaker 1: I don't know. They were somewhere riding an elephant. And
21:43
Speaker 1: some feminists were angry with Justice Ginsburg because she allowed
21:48
Speaker 1: Justice Scalia to sit in front of her on the elephant.
21:52
Speaker 1: But she did point out that the issue was less
21:55
Speaker 1: one of patriarchy and more one of sheer weight. So
21:58
Speaker 1: fair enough, you know it. Uh, it's good that the
22:04
Speaker 1: institution works. And I'll actually say, even on the political side,
22:08
Speaker 1: in the Senate, most senators get along. And the House,
22:12
Speaker 1: that's not true. There is some genuine nastiness and unpleasantness
22:16
Speaker 1: in the House, but in the Senate, out of a
22:18
Speaker 1: hundred senators, I'd say there are at most maybe five
22:22
Speaker 1: who are unpleasant, and and it's unusual enough that it's
22:26
Speaker 1: an outlier. And most Senators, even though they have strong disagreements,
22:31
Speaker 1: get along. Well. I just wrote a remembrance in a
22:36
Speaker 1: book for Harry Reid's family for his passing, and I
22:42
Speaker 1: wrote a story to his family about one time when
22:45
Speaker 1: I was a brand new senator and Harry Reid was
22:47
Speaker 1: on the Senate floor and was lambasting me, lighting into me,
22:52
Speaker 1: and then when he finished, he started to walk off
22:54
Speaker 1: the floor. He turned to me and winked with a grin,
22:57
Speaker 1: and it was kind of I laughed out loud. It
22:59
Speaker 1: was it was pretty funny. So, Mike, you mentioned that
23:02
Speaker 1: your book talks about the fundamental reason why packing the
23:07
Speaker 1: cord is bad. And the listeners and viewers of this
23:11
Speaker 1: podcast are smart, educated and formed. They care about substance,
23:17
Speaker 1: they care about understanding what's going on. And so if
23:21
Speaker 1: you're a Verdict viewer and you're standing at the water
23:25
Speaker 1: cooler tomorrow and somehow the topic of packing the court
23:28
Speaker 1: comes up, what are the best reasons why that is
23:33
Speaker 1: a really, really, really bad idea. Okay, the very best
23:37
Speaker 1: reasons why it's a bad idea is because in a
23:40
Speaker 1: constitutional republic like ours, we aspire to live under the
23:45
Speaker 1: rule of law, the rule of law as opposed to
23:48
Speaker 1: the rule of individual men and women. Because we started
23:53
Speaker 1: to live under the rule of law. We need an
23:55
Speaker 1: independent branch to resolve disputes about what law means. We've
24:01
Speaker 1: got three branches of government. It's essentially two pens and
24:04
Speaker 1: a sword. You've got the legislative pen that writes the law,
24:07
Speaker 1: decides what the policy should be. You've got the executive
24:10
Speaker 1: branch that wields the sword and enforces the law. But
24:14
Speaker 1: then from time to time, people will disagree about what
24:17
Speaker 1: the law passed by the legislative branch means. You've got
24:20
Speaker 1: to have somebody who can resolve that. You want that
24:22
Speaker 1: somebody that's something to be independent and immune from the
24:27
Speaker 1: political winds that can change from time to time. That's
24:30
Speaker 1: why you need an independent judiciary. The reason I wrote
24:33
Speaker 1: Saving nine and the reason court packing is so bad,
24:37
Speaker 1: is because if you pack the court in order to
24:39
Speaker 1: achieve a preferred political outcome, you will have destroyed the
24:44
Speaker 1: independence of the judiciary, and we will no longer live
24:47
Speaker 1: under the rule of law. Without the rule of law,
24:50
Speaker 1: the constitution itself crumbles, and the greatest civilization the world
24:54
Speaker 1: has ever known, which has been facilitated by the US Constitution,
24:58
Speaker 1: will exist no more. It is that simple, and it
25:02
Speaker 1: is that easy to do. And this is the irony
25:04
Speaker 1: of this. So one of the things that I describe
25:06
Speaker 1: in saving nine is the fact that it's funny. It's
25:09
Speaker 1: curious that something so fundamentally counter constitutional, anti constitutional, is
25:16
Speaker 1: itself not unconstitutional. It should be, And that's why I
25:20
Speaker 1: support at Ted's constitutional amendment that he's proposed to lock
25:25
Speaker 1: this in through the constitution. But it's not unconstitutional. But
25:30
Speaker 1: this is a way in which you could really destroy
25:33
Speaker 1: the Constitution without ever having to amend it. We can't
25:36
Speaker 1: let that happen. Now, Senators, before I let you both go,
25:39
Speaker 1: we've been speaking from your positions of expertise on the
25:43
Speaker 1: court and your legal careers and all your experience up
25:46
Speaker 1: there in that great marbled hall. But now I want
25:48
Speaker 1: to hear about your political guts, because you are both
25:52
Speaker 1: United States senators, and you have a pretty good sense
25:54
Speaker 1: of which way the winds are blowing. So we know
25:57
Speaker 1: that we shouldn't go past nine justices on the Court.
26:00
Speaker 1: But will we, Senator Lee, I believe we will not.
26:04
Speaker 1: I believe in something that's a statement attributed to Winston Churchill,
26:08
Speaker 1: that the American people can always be counted on to
26:10
Speaker 1: do the right thing. After they've exhausted every other alternative,
26:14
Speaker 1: and because I believe in the American people, I don't
26:17
Speaker 1: believe will do that. I think the American people will
26:19
Speaker 1: stop it. But you know that part remains unwritten. It's
26:23
Speaker 1: up to us to decide that. But I want the
26:27
Speaker 1: American people to be armed with this, So whether they
26:29
Speaker 1: buy the book or not is less important to me
26:31
Speaker 1: than that people read this. I want all of your
26:33
Speaker 1: readers to be able to read this. So if you
26:35
Speaker 1: want to just buy one copy and loan it thousands
26:39
Speaker 1: of times, that's fine too. But read this book. Read
26:42
Speaker 1: Saving Nine for a couple of reasons. Number One, Senator.
26:44
Speaker 1: At first, I just have to interrupt you very quickly,
26:46
Speaker 1: before you know, you are just such a kind, polite,
26:50
Speaker 1: nice man. But absolutely you should not be sharing this
26:52
Speaker 1: book with your friends. Go buy the book. Put your
26:55
Speaker 1: money on the line, folks. Absolutely you're going to launch
26:57
Speaker 1: your own copy. Sorry digression over you were saying. And
27:00
Speaker 1: they do sell it on Amazon, thank you, Michael. But yeah,
27:03
Speaker 1: so buy your copy of Saving Nine and read it,
27:06
Speaker 1: because when you read it, you're going to be armed
27:09
Speaker 1: with the facts. You're going to be armed with the
27:11
Speaker 1: arguments that you'll need to make in fact, once you
27:13
Speaker 1: read Saving Nine, you will never lose another political argument
27:16
Speaker 1: again in your life. It's not just about the Supreme Court.
27:21
Speaker 1: This is about the fundamental relationship between the three branches
27:24
Speaker 1: of our government, and the relationship between the federal government
27:28
Speaker 1: and the states. In the end, it's also about the
27:31
Speaker 1: relationship between the individual and society, the individual and government
27:36
Speaker 1: in general. And so this book is a first of
27:39
Speaker 1: its kind. It synthesizes all of these points and will
27:42
Speaker 1: allow the American people to stand up to this form
27:46
Speaker 1: of attempted tyranny. But we have to be able to
27:49
Speaker 1: recognize it as such, and we need to be armed
27:52
Speaker 1: with the facts in order to be able to stop it.
27:54
Speaker 1: You asked a minute ago politically, what is the likelihood
27:59
Speaker 1: of the left succeeding in packing the court? And I
28:02
Speaker 1: agree with Mike. I think it's not going to happen.
28:05
Speaker 1: But I also think we are unbelievably close to it happening.
28:11
Speaker 1: So my last book was one vote away, and the
28:15
Speaker 1: Senate on this, I think we're two votes away. We
28:18
Speaker 1: are two votes away. Joe Mansion and Kirsten Cinema are
28:21
Speaker 1: the only two Democrats who are refusing to end the filibuster.
28:27
Speaker 1: There are fifty Democrats in the Senate, forty eight of
28:30
Speaker 1: them are ready to do so we're two votes away.
28:33
Speaker 1: If those two votes flip, they'll end the filibuster. And
28:37
Speaker 1: I think if they end the filibuster, they will pack
28:40
Speaker 1: the cord, you know, the way you open the pod, Michael.
28:42
Speaker 1: The pressure from the left lighting their hair on fire.
28:47
Speaker 1: If and when the Dabb's decision comes down an overturns Row.
28:52
Speaker 1: We've already seen crazy left wing activists rowing up in
28:57
Speaker 1: kayaks to yell at mansion, at his house, bow and
29:00
Speaker 1: chasing Kirsten Cinema into the ladies room. That's how bad
29:04
Speaker 1: it's been. And to use a spinal tap reference, I
29:08
Speaker 1: think they'll take it to eleven. So I hope and
29:11
Speaker 1: believe Joe and Kirsten will withstand that pressure. But understand
29:16
Speaker 1: how unbelievably close we are to this happening, and why
29:20
Speaker 1: it matters to engage and not to wake up one
29:24
Speaker 1: day a week after the Supreme Court decision and go,
29:27
Speaker 1: oh crap, we now have a thirteen justice court. That
29:31
Speaker 1: is the key. The urgency here is the key. The
29:34
Speaker 1: best time to have figured this out and fight back
29:37
Speaker 1: against it is yesterday. The second best time is today,
29:41
Speaker 1: And Senator Lee, I think your book is a wonderful
29:43
Speaker 1: contribution to that fight. Thank you. I certainly think so too,
29:47
Speaker 1: And I want to emphasize what Ted is saying here.
29:51
Speaker 1: The pressure that those two are under is immense. When
29:54
Speaker 1: you couple that with the amount of emotional intensity it's
29:58
Speaker 1: likely to flow from at Dabb's ruling one that reflects
30:02
Speaker 1: the draft opinion of Justice Alito. And by the way, you're,
30:05
Speaker 1: regardless of how you think you stand on roversus way,
30:08
Speaker 1: everyone should read Justice Alito's masterpiece of a draft majority opinion.
30:14
Speaker 1: In that case, it's phenomenal. It makes the case abundantly
30:17
Speaker 1: clear as to why this is an issue to be
30:20
Speaker 1: decided by lawmakers rather than judges. But the pressure that
30:26
Speaker 1: they're going to feel is going to be intense. The
30:29
Speaker 1: bad things that happen in government, they're always due to
30:33
Speaker 1: what's coined to be an emergency or an exception. And
30:37
Speaker 1: the pressure that we've brought to bear on Mansion and
30:40
Speaker 1: Cinema will focus on the fact that, look, this time
30:42
Speaker 1: it's different. They got rid of Row. That's you know,
30:45
Speaker 1: that's a sacrament on the left, and so this one
30:49
Speaker 1: could flip, and that's why we've got to be ready.
30:51
Speaker 1: The only way we can be ready is if people,
30:54
Speaker 1: not just lawmakers, but Americans generally, if we're educated on
30:59
Speaker 1: the facts, if we understand what happens, what happens when
31:02
Speaker 1: you even threatened to pack the court, then we can
31:05
Speaker 1: stop it. Otherwise it's going to be an uphill slog
31:08
Speaker 1: one that we might eventually lose. That is why people,
31:10
Speaker 1: right now the show's over, there's no more to listen to.
31:14
Speaker 1: You now have the opportunity to go order the book.
31:16
Speaker 1: By the way, Michael, I gotta say just there. I
31:20
Speaker 1: loved that you channeled Ferris Bueller at the end of
31:23
Speaker 1: the movie. Go home. The movie's over, it's done, go home,
31:26
Speaker 1: it's done. The podcast is done, well, you know. I
31:30
Speaker 1: also I don't want to leave without saying one, congratulations
31:33
Speaker 1: on the book, Senatorally. Two congratulations on being our only
31:36
Speaker 1: repeat guest. We're going to have to make it a
31:38
Speaker 1: three peat very soon. Thank you for coming. Best of
31:41
Speaker 1: luck with the book. I know it's going to be
31:42
Speaker 1: a big hit. Everyone should go buy it. Senator Cruz,
31:45
Speaker 1: thank you as always for being on your own show.
31:47
Speaker 1: I'm Michael Knowles. This is Verdict with Ted Cruz. This
31:59
Speaker 1: episode of Very with Ted Cruz is being brought to
32:02
Speaker 1: you by Jobs, Freedom and Security Pack, a political action
32:05
Speaker 1: committee dedicated to supporting conservative causes, organizations, and candidates across
32:10
Speaker 1: the country. In twenty twenty two, Jobs Freedom and Security
32:13
Speaker 1: Pack plans to donate to conservative candidates running for Congress
32:17
Speaker 1: and help the Republican Party across the nation.