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Love's Rough Draft: Rewriting Unhappy Marriages (aka Relationships Shouldn't Suck!) · The Virtual Couch

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Hey, everybody, before we get started with today's episode of the virtual couch, I wanted
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to make you aware of a project that I have been chomping at the bit to tell you about
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and the time is here.
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So let me ask you, have you ever found yourself craving a deeper, more intimate connection,
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with your spouse, but you honestly aren't even really sure how to bring up certain topics?
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The things get a little bit awkward and so you typically tell yourself, oh, we'll talk
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about them later. And then that later really doesn't come.
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And let me be very honest, we are talking about intimacy.
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Now we're not talking about verbal intimacy, although that is an absolute key to what we
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are eventually landing the plane talking about today.
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And we're not even talking about emotional intimacy, although again, absolutely a must
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comes right after verbal intimacy.
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We are talking about physical intimacy. Yes, we are talking about sex.
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S-E-X, S to the X. We are talking about a topic that for so many people, which is so fascinating that we've
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You've never really learned how to talk about it.
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And it is something that is very important and can be a wonderful part of your relationship.
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So I was asked to take part in this year's, it's called the Sex Summit 2023.
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And I will be completely honest, I was asked to be a part of the summit last year
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and I thought it looked really good and promising.
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And I was asked to cover a really fun topic and I put it off and I said, I will get to this later.
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And later really didn't happen. So this year, as soon as I was asked again,
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And I was grateful to be asked, I jumped on the chance and I am one of 31 leading professionals
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in the field of marriage and sex who are providing you with a resource that I really do feel
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can completely restore or revive or reinvigorate your emotional and your sexual intimacy.
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This is going to be a comprehensive experience. it delivers.
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Variety of speakers, and I feel like we all have relevant and applicable and practical information.
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And let me tell you, there are very intimate, very specific presentations on all things sexual. But if talking about some of these things is uncomfortable,
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this is being presented in a format that can be enjoyed online from the comfort and privacy of
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your own home. You don't have to worry about any awkward therapist visits, although my therapist
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office is very nice and very comfortable or you don't really have to worry about configuration
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of childcare. So the goal here is to get you both learning and talking and growing in a
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safe environment and that environment is exactly what I think has been created in this Sex
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Summit 2023. And I honestly, I feel truly like I was brought in as this wise old man
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who is going to lay out some foundational principles on how to even start talking about
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anything because a lot of the presentations are talking about some very specific things.
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Specifically for me, I'm teaching you how to talk about things of a very intimate nature.
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Now the title of my presentation in the summit is Relationship Tools You Don't Know That You Need.
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Tips and tools born from 15 years of practice with 1500 couples.
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And this is the crazy part. I am going to go into full sales pitch mode.
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The cost of the seminar, the 2023 sex seminar is $35.
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So if you break that down with maybe my hourly rate or others hourly rates,
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That's about what you've paid to sit on my couch and recap the week before we dive into the deep end of the relationship pool.
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So I'm including the links in the show notes of this episode.
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And if you go on my social media feeds, there's going to be a link tree link, and that is going to have the Sex Summit 2023 as a topic.
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And if you click on that, it'll have the links to the Sex Summit 2023, again, $35.
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But then what's kind of nutty is they also have a bundle for $80 that you can get the 2020, 2021, 2022, and the 2023 seminars.
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So all four years and that is $80. Again, I'm only in the year 2023, but that is that is quite a deal.
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Highly encourage this. It goes away in about a week.
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And if you have questions, you can shoot them over to contact at TonyOverbay.com.
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But let's get started with today's episode of the Virtual Couch.
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Music.
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Hey, everybody, welcome to Episode 377 of The Virtual Couch.
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I am your host, Tony Overbay.
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I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified Mindful Habit Coach,
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writer, speaker, husband, father of four, and host of the, this is The Virtual Couch,
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host of the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast, and now, Episode Three coming out anytime soon,
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Murder on the Couch, True Crime Meets Therapy.
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The reviews, the comments have been fantastic. I do that with my daughter, Sydney.
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And please go find me on TikTok at virtualcouch or on Instagram at tonyoverbay underscore LMFT,
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or on Facebook, Tony Overbay, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist,
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or I'm on LinkedIn as well.
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And I'll leave it there. I would love for you to go check out The Path Back,
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my online pornography recovery program that is helping people reclaim their lives
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from turning to pornography as an unhealthy coping mechanism.
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You can find that at pathbackrecovery.com. But today's episode, I wanna just jump right in here.
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This has been something I've wanted to talk about for a while, and I'm gonna be honest,
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I've had two false starts on trying to record an episode
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on this particular article that we're gonna talk about today.
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And as a matter of fact, I just squared up my shoulders. I took a little bit of an in through the nose,
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out through the mouth breath.
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I'm slowing down my speech because in my two attempts at already doing a podcast on this article,
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I just get going and I get fired up and I think I make no sense.
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And so then I just scrap it and I end up putting something else together.
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But I'm gonna refer to an article that I would love to, I'll put in the show notes,
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and it's from one of my favorite websites, honestly.
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It's called, I don't even know how one says it out loud, it's gonna sound like some complicated word,
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but it's ADD in capital letters, and then I-T-U-D-E.
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So, Additude, but it's about ADD and ADHD. So, there are so much on this website about ADD, ADHD,
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rejection sensitivity, medication in ADHD, adult ADHD, ADHD in kids.
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And so I really enjoy this article.
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Are this website, but here's an article and this came out and I remember when it came out.
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Let me look at the date. It came out a couple of years ago and oh, March 31st of 2022. Actually,
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that is very recent and it says it was updated on March 31st. No, we are in 2023. That's what,
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I thought. Okay, so it was a year ago and the title of the article because I was sent this
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article and I remember reading it and just finding it very confusing because I didn't slow down
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enough to really, it's funny because it's on an ADD website, but it didn't slow down
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enough to really look at the content because the title of the article says, Divorce Probably
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Won't Make You Happier, Study Says.
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So first of all, a probably in the title doesn't give me the utmost confidence and I feel like
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this and I'm going to go into this, it's going to be pretty biased, but I think there's some
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good information in here.
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But I also just wanna share that as a marriage therapist, I think there is so much more that can come from a marriage
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than talking about things like probably, and here's a way to tolerate your marriage.
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And it just concerned me. I remember when someone sent me this when it came out a year or so ago,
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that this is the way that marriages are being talked about.
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That, hey, let's tolerate it. Or if you're not very happy in it,
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chances are you probably won't be as happy out of it as well, so you might as well suck it up.
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That's kind of the vibe that I was getting.
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So the article says, divorce probably won't make you happier, study says.
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And then the subheading here says, divorce is a common side effect of ADHD,
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but getting one doesn't mean you'll live happily ever after.
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And so it's talking again about this and the realm of ADHD, but then the article goes on to refer to some stats
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that have nothing to do with ADHD.
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So it's on an ADHD website, And I think that the subheading is talking about
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that in the world of people in relationships with someone who has ADHD,
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especially undiagnosed or untreated ADHD,
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that the divorce rate can be higher
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because if people aren't working on their own stuff on either end of the coin or either side of the coin,
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then it really can bring some challenges in the relationship.
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Because ADHD is about, it can be about impulsivity, it can be about rejection sensitivity,
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And it can just be about two people that look at things very differently and they don't have the tools to communicate effectively.
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So I'm going to jump halfway into the article and then we're going to bounce around a little bit.
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So in the article it talks about marital turnarounds.
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How do unhappy marriages get happier?
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So we're talking about unhappy marriages and the author, and I should give the author credit.
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So this was written by an author who wrote it and it does not say the author's name and
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I am stalling and I am scrolling and it does not say the author's name.
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It just says by ADD Attitude Attitude Editors.
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So then I will just use the proverbial they.
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So they say to follow up on the dramatic findings that two thirds of unhappy
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marriages had become happy five years later.
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So we're going to circle back around to that.
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The researchers also conducted focus group interviews with 55 formerly unhappy
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husbands and wives who had turned their marriages around.
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They found that many currently happy married spouses have had extended periods of marital unhappiness,
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often for quite serious reasons, including alcoholism, infidelity, verbal abuse,
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emotional neglect, depression, illness, and work reversals.
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And I can absolutely say that when people come into couples therapy and they are both willing
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to work on the marriage and take a look
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at how they show up in the marriage and get the right tools,
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then I really do feel like any of these things that were mentioned, alcoholism, infidelity,
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verbal abuse, emotional neglect, depression, illness, and work reversals,
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that they really can be the catalyst to get someone into therapy,
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to then learn things that they never knew that they didn't know.
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And I've mentioned this before, where I've had a number of...
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Couples who have said as much as they don't want to say out loud that had one of these things not happened to bring them into therapy
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They never would understand the way that a marriage can be when they have the right tools,
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But in the article they say why did these marriages survive where other marriages did not?
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Spouses stories on how their marriages got happier fell into three broad headings,
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The marital endurance ethic the marital work ethic and the personal happiness ethic,
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So then the next three paragraphs are really what drove me to want to address or talk about this article and the concepts that are being presented.
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So the first one says, in the marital endurance ethic, and I think, well there is a typo here in the article, it says the most common story couples reported to researchers,
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researchers, marriages got marriages not because partners resolved problems, but because they
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stubbornly outlasted them. With the passage of time, these spouses said, many sources
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of conflict and distress eased. Financial problems, job reversals, depression, child
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problems, even infidelity. So this is not a sales pitch from the seat of a marriage therapist,
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that the problems weren't resolved, not because partners resolve problems, but because they
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stubbornly outlasted them and with the passage of time. So from my chair, this is where we settle.
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Where we don't go find the tools to be able to talk about things and process very difficult
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topics and so eventually we stop talking about them and we settle in and we just,
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assume that this is just something that we're always going to have to deal with,
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and that is why that alone is one of the reasons I wanted to address this survey,
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because it was shared a lot when it came out a year or so ago.
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What I think happens so often are that couples go through some challenges because they are human beings going through life.
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Life is just lifing all over them.
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So let's just take one of the, I don't want to call it easier ones, but when we're talking about financial problems, job reversals, depression, child problems, infidelity, let's go with financial problems.
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So if a couple is unable to talk about their financial problems,
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And I very much believe that couples absolutely need to be open and transparent with their finances.
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And this is just my opinion, but having a shared bank account,
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but there has to be accountability and they have to be able to talk about everything from purchases to budgeting
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to just goals and hopes and dreams with regard to finances.
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And full transparency, this is not one of my strong suits, that is for sure.
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That talking about finances is uncomfortable. And I think so often it really is a,
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I don't even know how to talk about finances or what to talk about finances.
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And so just like I feel like couples need to go talk with a couples therapist who has the right tools
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or that's what they do for a living.
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But it's also important to go talk to a financial advisor or financial planner or go find someone
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that knows what they're talking about, about finances.
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But I digress. So let's say that there has been, there's been some really bumps in talking about finances
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in your relationship.
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And I feel like this, whether it's finances or any of these other topics,
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when you just get angry and you finally had enough and you just say, I'm tired of being controlled,
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I'm tired of the double standard, you spend money and then it's okay,
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but then when I spend money, then I hear all about it or I feel like you pout or I feel like you make judgments
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or I've heard every version of this.
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From couples that get alerts on their phone when the other partner spends money.
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And then instead of saying any, I mean, instead of not even saying something,
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it's saying, hey, just making sure that that's something you really wanted to buy.
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And almost having this double standard when it comes to finances or couples that say,
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okay, we have to run each purchase by each other. But then when somebody decides that they really
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want to get something, then it's almost as if they play dumb and they don't run that purchase
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by the other spouse because they don't want to be told no, or they don't want to have to justify
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why they want to buy something. So the financial conversations can be really awkward. So when they
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finally happen and a couple gets really angry and then they blow up one of them maybe shuts
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down and then they finally just they go away from the conversation and they are just unhappy.
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So then they go back into their bunkers and whether a day, two, three days pass and there's
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maybe the silent treatment or it's just very awkward that eventually we don't like to sit with discomfort.
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So someone will come out of that bunker and say, Hey, sorry, I know that didn't really
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go well and are we okay?
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And then the other person feels relieved and says, yeah, no, it's okay.
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And then if I am working with that couple, they come into my office and then they say,
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yeah, we had some awkward moments or we had some rough conversations around finances,
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but we were able to work it out and we're okay.
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And then this is where if I say, well, tell me how you worked it out.
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And then I will often just hear, well, no, I mean, I think we handled it pretty well.
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So I think that we're okay, we're ready to move on.
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And that just means that you didn't talk about it. You got angry, you shut down.
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We came out of the bunker and said, sorry, that eases our anxiety,
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that relieves this tension in the relationship.
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And so we start to just believe that that means that things are okay,
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but we didn't deal with anything.
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So those issues are gonna come up over and over again, and we're gonna continue in that pattern
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of just somebody finally blows up, the conversation doesn't go well,
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we both retreat, it feels awkward, and then we come out of our bunkers and we got through it.
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So I feel like that is part of what this stubbornly outlasting your problems in your marriage means.
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And so then over time, if somebody honestly feels like apathetic or just stuck in their relationship,
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then they would check the box of this marital endurance ethic and say.
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Okay, yeah, no, we got through it. We resolved their problems. We stubbornly outlasted them
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thanks to the passage of time. And so that is not the way to find yourself in a thriving marriage.
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So I take great exception in that first way that marriages, and I'm going to air quote, say,
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survive. The second paragraph, the article, they say that in the marital work ethic, spouses
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told stories of actively working to solve problems, change behavior, or improve communication.
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When the problem was solved, the marriage got happier. I love everything about those
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first two sentences. Here's the part that I find challenging. Strategies for improving
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marriages mentioned by spouses range from arranging dates. Again, I'm a huge fan. I
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think every couple should have a date night. My wife and I have had date nights for 30
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or more, or other ways to spend time together, enlisting the help and advice of relatives or in-laws.
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Here's where we're starting to get into the area of red flags. Enlisting the help and advice of relatives or in-laws.
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Now, that can be a good thing if it's looked at with, hey, tell me, give me some ideas of how you guys have maybe thrived in your marriage,
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but not saying, what should we do? Because now we're giving somebody else that power, and now we've got this third party that we are now looking to to say,
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hey, you tell us how to be happier.
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And we've now got this like triangulation going on in the relationship.
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But they say also enlisting the help and advice of relatives or in-laws to consulting clergy or secular counselors to threatening divorce and consulting divorce attorneys.
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So, let's work backwards there.
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So, saying that in the marital work ethic, the way that we have solved problems or changed behavior or improved communications has been to threaten divorce and consult divorce attorneys.
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Attorneys. Now, I understand that this is where sometimes when somebody doesn't
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know how to express themselves or be heard or understood, then they may find
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themselves finally getting to the point where they are done and they want to
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threaten divorce and the other person says, okay, that's fine. I'll change.
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But I don't feel like that means that we're getting to address the core issues
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of why we can't communicate in the first place or why the marriage got into the
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position that it's in. And then consulting clergy or secular counselors.
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So I would be considered a secular counselor, that's great. And I know that there can be some
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real benefits to consulting clergy, but I've worked with a lot of people in the faith community,
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and I worry at times what can be called, it's the leadership roulette, where you may get someone
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that feels like they've got their life figured out, maybe they've done well financially,
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and it's a pastor, a preacher, a bishop, a reverend who just says,
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well, here's what you need to do. And that's the part that I struggle with, because here's what
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you need to do is in essence saying, hey, here's what's worked for me. And so this is what I know.
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And so you guys need to do this because I'm happy.
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And there are situations where then I want to say, well, let's, let's check in and see what this is, what's going on for the couple in particular, because every, everybody's bringing different things into the relationship.
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And then looking for the advice of relatives or in-laws, again, I'm offered to tell me more, give me some advice, but not the, what do you guys think we should do?
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Because here's the psychology, I call it the psychology of the peanut gallery, is so often if we go ask somebody else,
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well, what do you think that we should do? Or what do you think I should do?
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That we may already have an idea of what we think and we want you to validate us, but we're not going to put it out there.
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So if you don't say the right thing, then the thing that we really want you to say, then we're going to say, I don't know.
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I don't know if that would work. I don't think you understand our situation or what's going on for me.
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And so, we're really looking for that external validation to make us happy, and when that's the case, then more often than not, the person that is responding to you, they aren't going to say the thing that you're looking for.
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So then you not only feel now like they don't understand, but what's wrong with you?
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And that's one of those challenges of when you're seeking external validation.
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But another part that I find that can be a challenge
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with that model, and why I refer to this as psychology of the peanut gallery,
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is that when we are asked for our advice, oftentimes we don't want to let somebody down,
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but this isn't something that we've been thinking about a lot, so then we're put on the spot,
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and we think, well, I need to sound smart,
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so let me just pull something out of thin air and give you some advice.
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Because I'm being asked to give advice, and I want to follow through, and I want,
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and hopefully this is something that will sound good, but it might then even be the person
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that is offering the advices version of what they wish that was happening in their marriage.
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So there's a lot of layers there that can really be a challenge.
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The third bullet point, and then we'll go back up to the beginning of this article.
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And again, my biases are all in the way, but this one might be one of the least sales pitches that I would want to put out there for marriage.
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I say, finally, in the personal happiness epic, marriage problems did not seem to change that much.
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Instead, married people and these accounts told stories of finding alternative ways to improve their own happiness and build a good and happy life despite a mediocre marriage.
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If you are just feeling like you are stuck,
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then go find your own happiness.
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Build a good, happy life despite your mediocre marriage.
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Now, I am, again, I really feel like part of the tools that we don't know, that we don't know about,
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are that we do come into relationships in this place where we have this codependency,
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this enmeshment where we got into the relationship,
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both of us are a lot emotionally immature, And so when we're going through the courting or dating phase
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that we often agree on so many things, because even if we somewhat disagree,
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we don't wanna lose this person.
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And so if somebody brings up a political view, and let's say, I don't know,
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let's say that your core, you're very liberal, and then the woman that you're dating is very conservative,
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but she's also very pretty.
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Then she says, hey, here are my conservative views. Tell me what you think.
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Then oftentimes this is what that codependency or that enmeshment or that fear of abandonment
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or our attachment wounds look like in that scenario, in that dating scenario.
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The the guy then who is more liberal is gonna say, you know what? I yeah, I think I.
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Agree, I've never looked at it that way or you know I've always felt the same way where if in the back of their mind they're thinking I do not think the same way or,
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You know, I really don't have much of an opinion I don't know if that's really what I would authentically say to a friend, but she's really really pretty so yeah
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No, you know what?
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I kind of think that too and so we do that so often and because we don't want to offend someone
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We don't want to look dumb. We're worried that if we give our true opinion Then that person will leave and this thing plays out in just regular relationships.
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Conversations in the workplace I feel like this is one where just to test this sometime if you're having a conversation with someone
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Let's say even say just kind of a mild acquaintance and they say hey Have you ever thought about fill in the blank or what are your thoughts on and if you ever find yourself having a strong opinion?
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But then waffling or easing into it or not giving your full opinion or saying,
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you know, I don't know. That's something I'm curious. I don't know.
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What are your thoughts?
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And then they give some thought that is seems that it's really not what you're
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thinking, but you say, yeah, no, that's a really good point. Or yeah, no,
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I've always thought that same thing.
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It's because we're so afraid that that person is going to get angry with us or
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they're going to think that our position is dumb or we're going to feel like we
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can't defend our position.
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And so when that stuff is happening in the relationship so often we do file that
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away in the, I'll just deal with this later because I'm sure that I'm sure that we're on a similar page.
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We probably are.
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So when people get into the relationships and they are more of that enmeshed and
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codependent and afraid of abandonment, we don't want that other person to, to,
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leave and they may leave if they find out our, our what's in our heart or see
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that our, our truly authentic self.
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And to be fair, we may not have strong opinions on things. So I'm not saying that if you, you have to immediately come up with an opinion.
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If somebody has something that you haven't thought of.
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But where I'm going with this is that, okay, that's how we show up in a relationship
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because it's just the way that we do, and we're human, and we're going through life
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for the very first time in this relationship.
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But then we start going through experiences in life. We do change jobs, or we have financial
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issues, or we have kids, or we move, or we graduate, or there's a death of a parent, or
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so many different things. And then as you go through these experiences in life, then you are
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both going to react or respond differently because you're two different human beings that are coming
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to that very moment with two completely separate backgrounds. All the things that make it what it
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what it feels like to be you.
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And then at this point, when we start to express ourselves, now is where the emotional maturity
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starts to really manifest itself.
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Are you with a partner or can you tolerate discomfort? Or can you look at things with curiosity?
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Are you okay that your spouse has a completely different point of view?
25:44
Because remember when we got into the relationship, there was a fear that if we weren't all on the same page
25:49
and if we didn't think the same about so many things, that then that must mean
25:54
that this person is gonna leave me.
25:56
And this is where that emotional immaturity looks at life almost from this an aspect of life is this zero sum game,
26:02
which means that there's a right and a wrong, that there's a good and a bad in everything.
26:07
So if we have differing opinions, if we're feeling pretty emotionally immature,
26:12
then we're gonna assume then if our spouse has a different opinion,
26:16
then they must think our opinion is wrong.
26:18
So now often we defend our fragile egos, we defend our opinions,
26:22
And then we feel like we have to attack and put down the opinion of our partner.
26:26
And it can be subtle. We can even say things like,
26:28
really, I didn't really know that you felt that way.
26:31
That's kind of interesting.
26:32
Huh, I thought that you thought something else.
26:35
I thought we were always on the same page. And that's the stuff that will passive aggressively
26:39
have your partner responding and saying, I don't know, I don't know, maybe you're right.
26:43
Maybe I'm crazy. This isn't something that I really do have the strong of opinion on.
26:47
I don't know why I'm expressing myself this way.
26:50
But our ultimate goal is as we go through life and we have different experiences that we feel safe and sharing our opinion
26:56
From a let me take you on my train of thought or this is how I feel And if that works well and is smooth in a relationship, then we both begin to mature,
27:05
Together now that doesn't mean that we have to have all the same thoughts and ideas and emotions and feelings and hopes and dreams,
27:11
But we start to recognize that I am safe in my relationship and that it's okay for me to have a different opinion,
27:17
and that is not gonna cost me the relationship because then we have this room to breathe
27:22
in the relationship and we can actually start to look at things.
27:26
We can say, well, I wonder why, yeah, why do I feel this way?
27:29
And we can start to look at the things that we bring into the relationship.
27:33
Julie Hall, who runs a website called The Narcissist Family Files,
27:37
she talks about what a good relationship looks like. And she said, securely attached humans,
27:43
approach relationships cooperatively.
27:45
They work together to achieve shared goals, seek and give empathetic validation,
27:50
share accurate and truthful information.
27:52
And that means that we're gonna tell the truth. We're gonna give accurate information,
27:56
even if it's uncomfortable.
27:58
And she says, we express affection and vulnerability to build trust and intimacy in the relationship.
28:03
Now, there might be conflict, and there will, there will be conflict, there will be disagreement,
28:08
but mutual support is the foundation of the relationship and respect and love are not at stake.
28:13
And that's where I worry so often that when respect and love are at stake,
28:17
then we truly can't be our authentic selves.
28:20
And I go back to this article of this marriage marital endurance ethic
28:25
or personal happiness ethic or marital work ethic.
28:28
And then we eventually just feel like if I cannot express myself, but I'm here,
28:32
I'm stuck and I'm in it for the long haul, then I'm gonna start to shut down.
28:36
I'm gonna look to others to tell me what I'm supposed to do,
28:39
not give me advice on what I'm trying to do here is here's a way to express yourself
28:43
because you're the one going through your life for the first time and your goal is to self-confront
28:50
and to become self-actualized and to learn to what is the discomfort that you sit with?
28:54
What does that mean to you? And what can you do about it?
28:57
Not tell your spouse how they're supposed to think or feel or what they're supposed to do to manage your anxiety
29:03
to manage your discomfort.
29:05
And so if we can start to have the, if we have the right tools and we realize it's okay
29:11
to have our own different opinions, then we're not looking at this endurance ethic,
29:15
or work ethic in a way to tolerate our marriage.
29:19
And improve our happiness and build a good and happy life despite a mediocre marriage.
29:24
Sorry, but as a marriage therapist that's worked with over 1500 couples now,
29:27
there is a model to find a connection in your relationship.
29:32
And I was interviewed on a podcast a little while ago and this was almost difficult for me to say out loud,
29:38
but I recognize the truth though, is that let's take these 1500 couples,
29:41
and this is not an exact number of couples,
29:44
or the data I'm about to share, but I said in this interview,
29:48
I feel like the first 500 couples, maybe the first third of all the couples I worked with,
29:52
that I really didn't, of course, I didn't know what I didn't know,
29:55
and I probably just gave a lot more advice, and I really wanted people to leave my office,
30:01
and just, and honestly, I probably wanted them to leave the office and say that guy's a good therapist because I'm learning myself
30:09
I
30:10
Don't think I realized at the time that I probably was looking for the external validation myself because I had changed careers after ten
30:16
Years in the computer software industry and then I feel like oh my gosh I think I can help couples
30:20
Where that wasn't something that I initially thought that was gonna be a part of my practice
30:24
Then I feel like the next 500 couples that then I started to have better tools to share with them
30:30
but I didn't want to have that discomfort.
30:33
I wanted to happy-fi everything and I wanted every couple to leave my office
30:38
wrapped in a big old bow.
30:40
And I really believed that was a wonderful thing. And I still think it's a wonderful thing when you can.
30:46
But I often worry now that that was about my own discomfort as a therapist, that I didn't wanna have to sit
30:52
with that discomfort of knowing that they may leave the office and not feel better.
30:55
And so then I feel like the last 500 couples or so that now with really solid tools,
31:02
that of helping people understand that you are absolutely okay and entitled
31:06
to have your own thoughts and opinions and emotions.
31:09
And as a matter of fact, what a wonderful thing to be able to explore your thoughts, your emotions.
31:15
In the things that you do.
31:16
And the safest or the best way to do it, I won't say it's the safest way,
31:20
we have to get to that safety, but the best way to do that is in conjunction with another human being
31:25
because we are putting out this version of ourselves and we're saying, hey, this is who I think I am.
31:30
So can you validate this?
31:32
Because this is who I am. I'm a wonderful father, a super nice guy,
31:36
and everything rolls off my back. Am I right? Right, hun?
31:39
And if she's not experiencing that same version of me, then who better in a safe situation to be able
31:47
for her to say, man, thanks for sharing that and tell me more and let me know what that means to
31:52
you. And I can share with you what I see. And now if I can be mature, then I can, and I'm
31:58
differentiated where one person ends and the other begins, then I can look at the information that
32:03
she's providing me with. And then I can take that, I can thank her for it. I can self-confront and I
32:08
and I can say, is there truth in what she's sharing?
32:11
What a joyous opportunity to sit with some of this discomfort and then to look introspectively and to say.
32:18
Can I learn from this? Are there some things that will help me be a better person?
32:23
But that doesn't mean that I always have to say, you're right, I'll do what you tell me to,
32:27
because I can also come from this place of what I call healthy ego, where I can say,
32:31
okay, man, I really appreciate you sharing that,
32:34
but I really feel like, I feel like I have a different view of what's happening in this situation.
32:40
Let me break down healthy ego, because I think this is a really important concept.
32:44
I refer to it often, and I think it, for those who don't know the backstory,
32:48
it can probably sound arrogant.
32:50
And this comes from the world of emotional immaturity and narcissism.
32:53
There's an author named Eleanor Greenberg, a PhD, and she has a brilliant article
32:59
called The Truth About Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
33:01
But in that article, she talks about normal versus pathological narcissism.
33:06
And she says, unfortunately, in the English language, the word narcissism has come to mean
33:10
two entirely different things, depending on whether it's being used formerly as a diagnosis
33:13
as a narcissistic personality disorder,
33:16
or informally as a synonym for positive self-regard, which I say I own this part and to say,
33:22
I don't know that it's used in that form ever at this point in the world.
33:28
She then said what I'm often asked as well, she said, I'm often asked,
33:30
and a little bit of narcissism healthy and normal.
33:33
So she said, I wanna clarify that distinction. So she calls this normal healthy narcissism
33:37
and I am telling her I love this definition and I am changing the word narcissism to ego and you'll see why.
33:44
So if I say normal healthy ego, this is a realistic sense of positive self-regard that is based on a person's actual accomplishments.
33:52
It's relatively stable because the person is assimilated into their self-image,
33:56
the successes that came as a result of their actual hard work to overcome real-life obstacles.
34:01
And because it's based on real achievements, normal healthy ego is relatively impervious to the minor slights and setbacks that we all experience as we go through life.
34:10
Normal ego causes us to care about ourselves, do things that are in our real self-interest and is associated with genuine self-respect.
34:18
One can think of it as something that's inside of us. So when I talk about the healthy ego, I'm going through life as me, and if I am doing my own internal work,
34:28
and I am not trying to have others make me feel better, or if when I feel uncomfortable,
34:34
I'm not trying to get rid of that discomfort by projecting my anger or frustration onto someone else.
34:40
If I'm really willing to then sit with that discomfort, self-confront, it's amazing because I want to grow.
34:45
So now, and I give this example often, but when I asked my wife a long time ago,
34:51
I don't know what it looks like when I come home or show up because I think I'm this world's greatest dad,
34:56
and she says there can be two different versions of you that walk in the door, that hurts.
35:02
And that makes me uncomfortable. And one of the ways I could get rid of that discomfort is to be a victim and shut down and say,
35:08
I wanna say, yeah, I know, I'm a horrible person.
35:12
You're right, I'm just, I don't know, I'm just a paycheck walking around and you just tell me what to do.
35:17
And that would just not be a way to show up. Absolutely not a way to show up.
35:22
Another way is that I can then, I can gaslight. I can project, I can say, oh, okay,
35:27
well, you're not the same person either.
35:29
I mean, I can respond that way, very emotionally immature. Or I can say, I want your feedback
35:35
because I care about you and you are my wife and you get to interact with me more than anybody.
35:39
So I'm gonna sit with that discomfort and then it turns out it's not gonna kill me,
35:45
and then I can look inward and I can say, tell me more.
35:48
I can turn to my own four pillars and assume good intentions
35:50
that she's not trying to hurt me with that comment.
35:53
My second pillar, I can't say, that's ridiculous, you're wrong because guess what? It's her opinion.
35:58
Pillar three, then I get to say, help me understand, help me see my blind spots, tell me more.
36:03
And in that scenario, she laid out a very clear scenario of where there are times when I walk in
36:09
and I am the funnest guy in the world and there are other times where I may have a short fuse
36:13
and I may seem like a victim,
36:15
like a little kid walking around the house with a pity party in a little dark cloud of rain storms
36:21
following me along like Pigpen back from the Charlie Brown days.
36:25
And so when she shared that with me, I was able to sit and self-confront and say,
36:29
man, you know what, there is absolute truth in that.
36:32
And I was able to identify that when I maybe have a bad day at work or, I don't know, pay bills or maybe it was...
36:39
A couple of clients didn't show up that day or I'd had a particularly rough session,
36:43
then I could find myself going home and not even realizing that I wasn't being present or positive.
36:48
And so I am so grateful for that information because now I can, on the way home,
36:52
I can do a nice self-care routine and I can show up and I can square my shoulders
36:57
and I can take a deep breath and I can walk in and I am so grateful to be there.
37:01
And then when you do that over time, then what it feels like to be you
37:05
based on the slow residue of lived experience
37:07
is that now I associate pulling up into the driveway as, oh, I'm so grateful to be here.
37:12
I'm grateful for my family, my wife, and man, I can't wait to just go in and be present.
37:17
And then that is the way I show up.
37:19
So normal, healthy ego. So now if she lets us say that she says to me,
37:23
yeah, I kind of feel like that happens again from time to time.
37:26
And then if I may say, oh man, again, assuming good intentions, I can't say nah.
37:30
And I say, hey, tell me more. Like, when have you seen that?
37:33
And if she says, I don't know, I just kind of feel like that's still a thing,
37:36
then I know from a healthy ego standpoint that I absolutely used to show up that way.
37:41
And I'm the only version of me going through life as me.
37:45
And I'm the one that's done the work, the work, the internal work based on real life experience,
37:51
to now I do know when I show up that way and when I don't and I can catch myself
37:56
and I'll take ownership and I'll take accountability.
37:58
And so that is that normal healthy ego. It's based on real achievements.
38:02
It's impervious to the slights and setbacks we experience as we go through life.
38:06
And it causes us to care about ourselves, do things in our own self-interest
38:09
and is associated with genuine self-respect is something that's inside of us.
38:12
So a healthy ego, I can say, man, I appreciate that. And I feel like coming from a place of healthy ego,
38:17
I feel like that I haven't been that way in a long time, but I am so open to you pointing that out.
38:24
So if you do see an example of that in a moment, then please point that out.
38:28
And I promise you that I will take that information in and I will sit with the discomfort
38:34
and I will take ownership and accountability if I'm not showing up the way that I believe I am.
38:40
Because over time, now let me read what pathological defensive narcissism is.
38:44
This is the opposite of healthy ego.
38:46
Eleanor Greenberg said, this is a defense against feelings of inferiority.
38:50
So the person dons a mask of arrogant superiority in an attempt to convince the world
38:54
that he or she is special.
38:55
But inside the person feels very insecure about his or her actual self-worth.
38:59
And this facade of superiority is so thin that it's like a helium balloon.
39:03
And one small pinprick will deflate it.
39:05
So this makes the person hypersensitive to minor slights that somebody with healthy ego wouldn't even notice.
39:11
Instead, somebody with this type of defensive narcissism is easily wounded, frequently takes any form of disagreement
39:17
as a serious criticism and is likely to lash out and devalue anybody who they think is disagreeing with them.
39:22
They're constantly on guard trying to protect their status and it can be thought of as a protective armor
39:27
that's on the outside of someone.
39:29
The reason I bring these things up right now.
39:32
It's because I feel like this whole article is talking about almost this marital apathy of just settling in and then over time
39:39
What it feels like to be you is you're gonna get through it and tolerate it
39:42
And so yeah, it's you bet it's better because I don't feel like I don't feel like running into traffic anymore.
39:49
But I am now seeking other people to tell me that I'm okay I'm deciding to find joy outside of my relationship and calling that good and,
39:58
And I just don't feel like that, that is not necessary when the tools are out there to improve your marriage
40:04
and you show up different in a marriage.
40:06
And this survey, the study, I feel like then goes against what a marriage can be, which is this opportunity
40:13
to grow emotionally mature, thanks to your partner.
40:18
And there is none of, I feel like there would be none of that happening if we are just settling in,
40:23
for the long haul, the slog.
40:25
If we're looking outside of our relationship for fun things.
40:28
And if we just feel like, okay, we can go on a couple of dates
40:32
and then we can go meet with our bishop every now and again
40:34
and he can tell me what we're doing wrong.
40:36
And then we just settle in and we just eventually what it feels like to be us is apathetic.
40:42
And then we just start to create even we confabulate our own narrative that,
40:45
well, this is what marriage is. And this is the way it's supposed to be.
40:48
Maybe nobody's happy. Maybe nobody really feels fulfilled.
40:52
And when I go back to this example of the 500 couples, 500 couples, and the third round of 500 couples,
40:57
is that I feel like as I'm helping people find the right tools in marriage.
41:04
That the reality is there are divorces.
41:08
The divorce rate is over 50%.
41:10
And so I feel like I have gone from people that just finally feel like they don't even know what to do,
41:15
so they're gonna get a divorce, to people that start to say,
41:18
okay, I deserve more, and I deserve to be happy, and this is coming from a place of healthy ego.
41:23
I'm working on myself. I want to go to counseling. I wanna go to couples therapy.
41:27
I wanna explore what makes me tick. I'm willing to sit with discomfort.
41:32
I'm willing to look inward and say, what can I learn from these situations?
41:37
Because I cannot control another human being. I can have love or I can have control
41:41
in my adult relationship, not both, not both.
41:45
And so if I have love, then I have love. And that comes with compassion and empathy
41:50
and care and concern.
41:52
And so what can feel like the exact opposite thing to do in your relationship is instead of trying to tell
41:59
your partner how they're supposed to act, feel, or think, is that you recognize this is your opportunity
42:06
to sit with discomfort and not try to get rid of your own anxiety or your own discomfort
42:12
by controlling another person.
42:15
Not by looking to them for external validation to make you feel better because you don't feel good about yourself.
42:21
No, we need to be in a relationship so we can have this dyadic collaborative union
42:26
where we're two people going through life for the very first time together,
42:28
going through situations that of course we're going to have different opinions on.
42:32
And we feel this safe person that we can say, Hey, what are your thoughts about this, about parenting?
42:38
What do you think we should do? And if the person says, man, this is where I come from, or this is, I don't know,
42:43
dealt with this as in my childhood. My parents did this horribly. But what do you think?
42:48
And if the other person says, okay, I, boy, I appreciate that. I feel like my parents
42:51
handled it a little differently. And I do feel like there was some success there because
42:54
now we are having an experience, a collaborative experience, and we are two people sharing
43:00
our experiences, not trying to tell the other person your experience is wrong because if
43:04
you had a different experience than I had, then that means you think that yours is right
43:08
and mine is wrong. It is not about right and wrong at this point. It's about, let's be
43:13
heard, let's be understood, let's create this relationship that is in for the
43:18
long haul and not in for the long haul, like settle in, it's going to suck, but
43:22
more like we're in it for the long haul.
43:24
So our goal is to be heard and to be understood.
43:27
Not that we have to resolve everything in every conversation, because if that's
43:31
the case, I guarantee you, you're going to eventually find yourself.
43:35
If you're the person that feels like, no, we do, we always resolve things.
43:39
It's because you resolve things. And it's because you're with a partner that most likely says, yeah, sounds good to me, because they already have just acquiesced and believe that it really doesn't matter.
43:49
Why am I even trying to be heard or understood?
43:52
And so that can be really difficult. If you're that person that feels like it really doesn't matter, it's fine.
43:58
I just go along with what he says or what she says.
44:01
Then there's a better way to live in your relationship. And it's not about just settle in, buckle up, and this thing's going to suck.
44:09
And if you're the person that feels like everything's great, right, hon?
44:09
Thank you.
44:12
And but you're not, you know, you feel like, huh, I don't even know if I really know much about what my my spouse's opinion is, because I'm sure good at telling her what I think her opinion is or what she doesn't even realize her opinion is.
44:25
Then it is time for a little little self-confrontation, my friend, and prepare for some discomfort.
44:32
But know that you will live. You will survive.
44:35
Now, this entire podcast was not meant to sell you on the marriage summit, sex summit thing, because I go into some details in there and some foundational principles.
44:45
I take you back from the womb and talk about abandonment and attachment and lay out some four pillars.
44:51
But there are resources. I am about to relaunch my marriage course.
44:55
I have a $19 mini workshop on things you don't know that you don't know.
45:01
And you can go find that. Email me and let me know if you want to be one of the first to find out about my Magnetic Marriage Workshop, our course that I'm re-releasing and it's got all new material.
45:12
Or go, if you don't want to spend any money, go Google my name and Four Pillars and find all the Four Pillar podcasts.
45:20
But there are real tools that are out there that can help and improve your marriage. And you do not have to just settle in and just deal with it.
45:30
Marital endurance. I mean, I'm an endurance runner. I've ran a dozen races of 100 miles or more.
45:37
I'm a fan of endurance, but I really enjoy the kind of endurance where you get to eat M&Ms at the aid stations
45:43
and you spend some amazing time out on the trails with your friends and your spouse.
45:49
And then when you finish, they give you a real cool belt buckle and a jacket.
45:53
Not the kind of endurance where, well, suck it up and this is what, I guess this is as good as it gets.
45:59
Because it can be so much better. So if you have specific questions, I might as well throw this
46:05
out there too. I love doing podcasts. I've got the Waking Up to Narcissism, the Waking Up to
46:09
Narcissism Premium Q&A, the Virtual Couch, Murder on the Couch. I've got one coming out about getting
46:15
rid of pornography addiction or turning to pornography as an unhealthy coping mechanism.
46:19
But I really want to do one at some point where I want you to send in, you can write as much as you
46:24
want and tell me about your marital question or your marital problem. And I want to do a podcast
46:29
where I take a problem or two, and I'm gonna break it down in every way I can, and just based off the data given to me, make the assumptions of how the two people are showing up in the relationship, probably what their backgrounds are, and then talk about what a real healthy relationship or connection would look like.
46:46
So please send those stories in too, to contact at TonyOverbay.com, and we'll get those addressed at some point.
46:51
Hey, thank you for listening to the Virtual Couch, if I hope you can tell this is something
46:55
I just feel so passionate about and I and marriages can be better and you do not have
47:01
to suffer in silence in your marriage.
47:04
If you are in an unhealthy, if you're in an emotionally, financially abusive, spiritually
47:08
abusive, physically abusive, sexually abusive, sexually coercive relationship, then you don't
47:14
have to stay in that.
47:16
And part of the change happens in your brain.
47:19
You can just start to think and dream and listen and read and start to just understand that you don't deserve to be controlled.
47:27
And it is absolutely okay for you to have your own thoughts and opinions.
47:30
And if you are in a relationship where that isn't a thing, then I would just love to bring some gentle awareness that that is not the way a relationship is supposed to be.
47:37
So reach out with questions or give me those stories of what's going on in your marriage and maybe I can address those in a future podcast.
47:45
And I will see you next time. And taking us out per usual, the wonderful, the talented Aurora Florence with her song It's Wonderful.
47:52
Because marriage can be wonderful if you have the right tools.
47:55
And you get through the parts that you don't even know that you don't know.
47:59
But Aurora Florence is taking us out with her song, It's Wonderful.
48:01
Music.
50:10
Distance don't explode allow the understanding through to heal the legs and hearts you break.