Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E220: Transition Promised A New Life: Now I Regret It w/Katie Coblentz | Lila Rose Show

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E220: Transition Promised A New Life: Now I Regret It w/Katie Coblentz | Lila Rose Show · The Lila Rose Show

0:00
When I was growing up, I always preferred boys toys, boys
0:03
clothing. So when I was confused about who
0:05
I am, confused about my identity, I would go down the
0:08
LGBT rabbit hole. Do I fit this letter or this
0:10
letter? This letter.
0:11
What was it for you that gave you the aha moment that you
0:14
thought I'm transgender? It was after I'd taken a shower.
0:17
I can see the scars on my chest and I'm thinking, look at how
0:20
much I've done to myself and it just broke me.
0:22
But because I was still taking testosterone, I could just be
0:24
done with crying if I wanted to. You're married now.
0:27
Yes, Congratulations. Thank you to hear you just speak
0:30
very candidly about what you've been through.
0:32
Some people just don't want to talk about it and they certainly
0:34
don't want to hear from people like you AD transitioner.
0:37
So thank you. Katie Koblenz believed that she
0:40
was born in the wrong body. As a young girl, she loved
0:43
typically boy things. She was a tomboy, she enjoyed
0:46
spider man, she enjoyed playing outside with the boys.
0:49
As she got older, in search for peace and a new identity, she
0:52
turned to hormones and ultimately surgery.
0:56
In today's episode, Katie sits down with me and she shares her
0:59
story of D transition. In a world where confusion about
1:02
sexuality and gender seems to be at an all time high, I believe
1:06
that stories like Katie's are absolutely essential to Pierce
1:10
through the confusion and to bring clarity and ultimately
1:13
hope. So this June, what some are
1:14
calling Pride Month, be sure to share Katie's story, share this
1:18
episode with a friend or a loved one who may need to hear it.
1:21
And we did some special bonus content over at
1:24
rosereportsupercast.com with Katie.
1:27
We had some fun doing the questions with our question
1:30
wheel. Go check it out over at
1:31
rosereportsupercast.com. Katie Koblance, welcome to the
1:34
podcast. Thank you.
1:36
I'm really honored to have you here.
1:37
Thank you so much for coming in. Of course, thank you for having
1:40
me. We have a mutual friend, Chloe
1:41
Cole, and that's how I first came across you.
1:44
So thank you for saying yes to Chloe, who's been, I think,
1:47
Kate, taking you on some of her amazing campaign work she's been
1:50
doing. A little bit, yeah, here and
1:52
there. She especially got me started by
1:53
doing that big long, in depth interview that has a million
1:59
views now I think. So that's been really cool.
2:01
So a lot of credit for everything I'm doing goes to
2:04
Chloe. Well, and to your to your
2:07
credit, your willingness to Share your story, I think has
2:10
been really mind blowing for a lot of people to hear it from
2:13
you to hear you just speak very candidly about what you've been
2:17
through. And especially on something
2:18
that's so controversial, some people just don't want to talk
2:21
about it and they certainly don't want to hear from people
2:23
like you AD transitioner. So thank you also for your
2:26
courage and sharing your story of D transition, of course.
2:29
Well, I'd love to get started with the beginning.
2:33
Who is Katie and tell me a little bit about your
2:35
background. So I grew up in New England, in
2:39
Massachusetts in a Catholic family and I have one younger
2:44
sister and I have two parents who were married my whole life.
2:46
A lot of people ask me or your parents together.
2:49
I have great parents, no issues with them whatsoever.
2:52
When I was growing up, I was pretty much a tomboy.
2:57
I was, I was very much a tomboy actually, and I always preferred
3:01
the boys toys, boys clothing, sports, and spider man over any
3:06
of the stuff the girls in my class were doing.
3:08
When I got to about middle school, I felt confused about my
3:12
gender, which is normal, but I didn't realize that that was a
3:16
normal thing, to feel uncomfortable during puberty and
3:19
to kind of think, well, why is this happening to me?
3:21
Does this have to happen to me? Do I really need to change in
3:24
this way? That was something that was hard
3:26
for me. And by the time I got to high
3:29
school, a lot of the LGBT stuff was celebrated on my high
3:33
school. So when I was confused about who
3:35
I am, confused about my identity, and I'm thinking, who
3:38
is Katie? Who am I?
3:40
I would go down the LGBT rabbit hole.
3:42
Do I fit this letter or this letter or this letter along the
3:45
the acronym? And so I tried on a few things.
3:48
I eventually landed on, well, I should be a lesbian.
3:51
And by that point, my whole family had fallen away from the
3:55
church. So nominally we're Catholic, but
3:58
we're not going anymore. We're not really practicing.
4:01
So nobody was there to push back against that and to say actually
4:04
this, this isn't a good choice. You shouldn't be going down this
4:06
path. When I started college, it was
4:10
my freshman year in college that I actually decided I'm not
4:14
supposed to be a woman. I'm supposed to be a man.
4:16
And so I'm going to start transitioning to be a man.
4:18
That was when I was about 18 or 19.
4:21
And then from there it just snowballed into full on
4:26
transgenderism until one day I just realized this is the wrong
4:31
choice and I have to to turn back.
4:33
I can't keep doing what I'm doing.
4:35
So there's so much to unpack about what transitioning meant
4:38
for you. And I know you went through a
4:40
lot of medical intervention, so I want to get to all of that,
4:43
but I want to start with back to childhood.
4:45
You said you were a tomboy, which a lot of girls are, right?
4:49
And there's also a lot of boys who might be, you know,
4:52
interested in more feminine, stereotypically feminine
4:54
activities or ideas. What were your associations with
4:57
being female as a child? What did being a girl mean to
5:01
you? That's a really good question.
5:02
So honestly these days I'm not even really sure what it means
5:06
anymore to be a tomboy. Because what about a girl who
5:09
likes sports and also likes princesses?
5:11
If she didn't like princesses if she so So that is really
5:14
confusing for me. What I associated with being a a
5:17
girl was liking the dress is painting my nails, those sorts
5:22
of things that I shouldn't play sports because that's a that's a
5:26
boy thing. And and I really like to play
5:28
softball. I like to play catch with my
5:30
dad. We would play catch with the
5:31
football, catch with baseball, everything.
5:34
And I was always just thinking that if I'm outside playing with
5:36
my dad, then I'm doing boy activities.
5:39
But if I'm inside doing arts and crafts with my mom, then I'm
5:42
doing girl activities. And I did have a preference one
5:45
way or one one way or the other. I would, I always preferred to
5:48
be outside. And my little sister who is much
5:51
more, who is much girlier than I am still is.
5:55
She always wanted to be doing the arts and crafts.
5:57
Now she's a kindergarten teacher, so she just loves doing
6:00
arts and crafts. And it was just never my thing.
6:02
I used to tell my art teachers I'm not going to paint, so I get
6:07
points taken off all the time, but I really just didn't want to
6:10
paint, didn't want to do that sort of thing.
6:11
Just for some reason did not like it as much as I like gym
6:14
class. But back then I was thinking
6:18
that means that there's a divide.
6:20
Boys do this and girls do this. And so if I'm in this category,
6:22
I'm a boy. But really it's just I was a
6:26
girl with a preference to be outside running around and
6:29
playing catch with my dad. Did you ever have that thought
6:32
as a younger child? I must be a boy or I am a boy
6:36
because I like doing these more stereotypical male activities.
6:40
I'm doing activities with my dad as opposed to my mom.
6:43
Not really. I was uncomfortable in my
6:45
gender. I was, but I don't even know if
6:47
I would say gender because it's not how I would have said it as
6:49
a kid. But I felt confused and kind of
6:53
alone in it because I would hang out mostly with the boys because
6:56
that's what they were all doing at school and thinking.
6:58
Elementary school, playing at recess, bringing in the Power
7:01
Rangers action figures, that was something that I would do, but
7:04
that's not something that the girls would do.
7:05
So it was confusing. I did feel a bit alone, but I
7:09
never once thought that I could change my gender and I never
7:13
thought that I am a boy. There were times though, as a
7:17
child that I wished that I were a boy, just that I could fit in
7:20
better with one group or another, but I never thought
7:23
that it was an option. Was there a time when you were a
7:28
young teen, so maybe this was on the onset of puberty when you
7:32
thought, I really don't, not just like girl activities, but I
7:34
don't like my girl body. Like did that ever?
7:37
At what point did that start, if at all?
7:40
As a teen during puberty, there was a little bit of that.
7:43
It wasn't so much I want my breasts removed or anything like
7:46
that. It was just at the start.
7:48
I didn't want them to grow yet. I'm thinking I'm eleven years
7:51
old, I don't want this. When I was 13 and I had my first
7:56
period, I was thinking, I'm not ready for this.
7:58
I don't want this to be happening.
8:00
But it was never let's stop this process.
8:03
It was just, I really don't like this, but I'll get used to it.
8:08
So there was a there was a discomfort, but I don't think a
8:11
discomfort that's strange for a teenage girl to have.
8:15
Yeah, I've never, I don't know if I've ever met a teenage girl
8:18
who's like, yay, I have my period.
8:20
Because it's painful for many of for many of us, and especially
8:23
for those that don't, aren't kind of given a very, very
8:26
delicate, careful walkthrough of what this means in a way that's
8:28
really connecting for them and approachable.
8:31
It can be, you know, even scary for a lot of girls.
8:35
Did you feel like you had someone holding your hand during
8:38
that time who was kind of coaching you through that or did
8:41
that, Did a lack of that possibly add to confusion or
8:43
what? What was your experience of
8:45
that? I'd I had my mom and my sister,
8:48
she's only two years younger. So a lot of the stuff I was a
8:51
bit ahead of her, but we were kind of going through it at the
8:54
same time and my mom was right there always talking to us.
8:57
So I had a good support system. There was just a lot of
9:01
discomfort with it. And then when I felt confused
9:03
going down the LGBT rabbit holes rather than asking my mom, hey,
9:08
what do I do about this feeling because she's probably had all
9:10
the same ones. But another thing that that was
9:14
really tough for me as a teenager was the push for birth
9:18
control. It happened with peers.
9:20
With any adults there would just be this push you have your first
9:24
boyfriend at 1415 years old, which was when I did.
9:27
I had my first boyfriend at 1415 will say I'm not I'm not sure,
9:31
probably 15 and it was a the minute you want birth control,
9:35
you can just have it. You can go to the clinic at
9:37
school or you can go to the doctor.
9:39
It'll be no questions asked. You'll just be able to get it.
9:41
But like I was a 15 year old girl, I was not comfortable
9:45
talking about sexual relationships or even thinking
9:48
about any of the boys in my class that way.
9:51
So I'm looking around the room at a bunch of other 15 year old
9:53
boys and I'm just thinking, no thanks.
9:58
Kind of like that. And no, no offense to the to the
10:01
teenage boys, but it I think that's a normal feeling that you
10:04
have your first, first boyfriend.
10:05
He's kind of cute, but it's also really awkward and all you do is
10:08
text him. That was that was my
10:10
relationship. So the, the push for birth
10:14
control felt like a push into sexual promiscuity that I wasn't
10:20
ready for. And I don't even think that it
10:22
was a conscious effort to do that when, when well meaning
10:25
adults would say you can just go to the clinic at school if you
10:28
need birth control, any form. I, I don't think that they were
10:32
trying to push me down that or trying to make me feel
10:35
uncomfortable. I think they really thought they
10:36
were helping, but they just weren't.
10:39
I mean, it, it made me so uncomfortable.
10:41
It made me feel really ashamed of myself because I wasn't
10:44
feeling the same way that a lot of my peers were.
10:46
Because a lot of my friends, they would go to the school
10:48
clinic to get whatever they needed to get down there.
10:52
So it just felt like I was kind of the odd one out at that
10:55
point, especially where especially when the adults were
10:59
saying the same thing, like, Oh yeah, you, you want birth
11:01
control, you can just have it. And I'm 15 and I'm just
11:04
thinking, I, I don't, I don't know why nobody believes me
11:07
about it, but I just, I'm not ready for that.
11:09
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12:05
What would you say was your relationship towards sort of
12:07
sexuality at this point? Because you said at one point
12:09
you thought, well, maybe I'm a lesbian.
12:12
Was that because you're like, well, I don't want to jump into
12:14
bed with these teenage boys right now, so maybe I'm a
12:16
lesbian. I mean, what was your experience
12:18
of that? There was AI think I was a
12:20
freshman when this happened. There was an upperclassman or a
12:23
few of them, who had a test to see if you're lesbian, gay or
12:27
bisexual, and if you're none, then you're.
12:28
Asexual like a like it was multiple.
12:30
Choice things. It was the easiest test ever.
12:33
The the first question was, you know, look around the OR.
12:36
There was really only one quick, I think there was only one
12:39
question, she told me, Look around the room.
12:41
Can you picture yourself sleeping with, we'll say, any of
12:45
the girls, no, any of the boys in the room.
12:47
And I looked around and went. No.
12:50
I can't. I can't picture myself doing
12:51
that. And it was more of I can't
12:53
picture myself doing it in general, but it was a Nope, not
12:56
with any of these guys. I can't.
12:58
And so she said, see, that's easy.
12:59
That just means you're a lesbian.
13:01
Wow. But then when I'm thinking about
13:03
that and I'm looking at the girls and I'm like, I can't
13:05
think that way about them either.
13:07
That's when I thought not I'm normal, but I must be asexual
13:12
because clearly I'm not attracted to anybody in this
13:15
room. So that means that I'm not
13:17
attracted to anybody, period. So that was the start of going
13:20
down the LGBT rabbit hole. And I'm, you know, just
13:25
identifying as asexual, if that makes any sense.
13:27
It just means that you're not attracted to men and you're not
13:30
attracted to women. So I don't really know.
13:33
I guess that's just all it means.
13:34
So but that worked for me because if I'm asexual, nobody's
13:38
pushing me into birth control, nobody's pushing me into
13:40
relationships. And then further into high
13:44
school 1617, I started wearing the boys clothing again.
13:49
And I'm thinking, OK, I think I fit the stereotype of a lesbian
13:52
so that that must be me. I I fit the stereotype and so it
13:56
works. I play the sports in three
13:57
season athlete. I wear the men's basketball
14:00
shorts or whatever. And so then I thought, all
14:02
right, I'm a lesbian, and I did go with that, and I had
14:05
girlfriends, but it was kind of awkward because I didn't always
14:09
want to hold their hand in public because I didn't want to
14:11
look gay. So I was just kind of trying to
14:14
be a lesbian, but not really just kind of forcing myself into
14:18
it. It was when I discovered the
14:20
trans identity that I could be straight because I could be a
14:24
man and I could date women. So I still don't have to worry
14:26
about the men who I've been pushing away for so long.
14:30
That that game that that upperclassmen played like look
14:33
around the room. Who would you want to sleep
14:35
with? Was that just like, you know,
14:38
during recess or when? What was the context for that?
14:41
I think it was just between classes.
14:43
We got to class early and they were all doing the test to see
14:48
what they all were to see. But it wasn't like a test in the
14:50
classroom person. Oh yeah, that was just a friend
14:53
who was like an. Extra thing outside of the.
14:55
Class. The teachers didn't have
14:56
anything to do with that. And, and in the classroom was
14:59
you said there that they did talk about LGBTQIA, you know,
15:04
whatever issues did they discuss sexuality kind of in a academic
15:09
format that said, hey, these are the options of what you can be.
15:11
How did you, I guess, get exposed to that ideology or that
15:16
view that way to see sexuality and how much of it was in the
15:19
classroom? We so the the gay stuff was
15:23
pushed a lot. So we actually had teachers who
15:25
are gay married to each other and they were, they had the same
15:29
last name and we knew that they were married and back then, so I
15:32
graduated high school in 2014. So back when I was in high
15:35
school, it wasn't the big pride flags with the triangles coming
15:39
in and at the top or anything like that.
15:42
A lot of it was just the blue and yellow equal rights
15:45
stickers. And they'd put that on the door.
15:47
Sometimes you'd see the rainbow with the bold, you know, the
15:50
rainbow flag with the bold colors and you'd see those
15:53
stickers. But most of the time you're
15:55
walking by a classroom and it's the the the Human Rights
15:58
Campaign, equal rights stickers. And every time you'd walk by
16:02
there, you knew that teacher was a safe person to talk to about
16:05
LGBT issues. Or if you're feeling like you
16:07
need to talk about your sexuality, about a relationship
16:10
that you're in and maybe it's a homosexual relationship, you can
16:13
always go to that teacher in the health classes.
16:17
I don't know if it was widely discussed at that point because
16:21
I was in ROTC. So we did a different sort of
16:23
health class, which is really cool.
16:25
We got to learn a little bit about airplanes and everything,
16:27
which I preferred to whatever was happening in the actual
16:30
health class. So if that was taught in my
16:33
school, I'm not. I'm not too sure, but I know
16:35
that it was more than tolerated at the school.
16:40
Were there at the times you said you graduated high school in
16:42
2014? Were there other classmates of
16:45
yours who were openly transgender, identifying as
16:48
transgender, or identifying as LGBT?
16:51
What did that kind of peer impact look like at the time for
16:54
you? There's a lot of LGBT.
16:56
My high school had about 3500 kids, maybe a little bit more
16:59
than that. So it was a big school.
17:01
There was a lot of people, very openly LGBT, lot of people with
17:04
a lot of different personalities.
17:06
So you just kind of got a mix of everything.
17:09
Trans. I honestly, I don't think there
17:12
was very much of that, maybe one or two.
17:15
But if there was, I mean, it wasn't even open enough that I'm
17:17
recalling it. And it could also just be that
17:20
they weren't in my circles. And with a school that big, you
17:23
don't always realize that about people.
17:26
So the trans stuff, not so much, but my peers, there was a lot of
17:31
lesbians in my in my peer group. Most of us were girls.
17:35
There was a couple boys here and there.
17:37
And almost all of us, 70% of us, I didn't have that many friends,
17:42
but we'll say about 70% of us ended up with some LGBT
17:46
identity. Most of us I think at this point
17:49
have moved on from it. I'm not sure.
17:51
I don't. I don't keep in touch with a lot
17:53
of the people I did in high school.
17:56
At what point did you how old were you when you thought, OK,
17:59
maybe I'm, I'm transgender? It was my freshman year of
18:02
college so I was 18, possibly just turned 19.
18:09
And were you at this time, you said before in high school you
18:12
didn't really know of anyone that was transgender.
18:14
What was it for you that gave you the aha moment?
18:18
I'm transgender. It was YouTube videos, so I was
18:20
searching about why I'm so uncomfortable and you know, the
18:24
stereotypical lesbian stuff, like almost searching for
18:28
someone to help me in this LGBT identity.
18:31
And I'm so uncomfortable. I'm coming across these videos
18:34
of transgender, transgender identifying women who are
18:39
transitioning to be men. So that would be a trans male is
18:43
how they would call it. And I'm coming across them in
18:47
every single girl who's posting about her transition.
18:52
She goes from being this very unhappy, depressed, kind of
18:55
lonely lesbian, which is where I felt like I was.
18:59
I felt like I have this depression and I'm I feel alone
19:02
and I don't know why I feel so uncomfortable with myself.
19:04
I should be just fine. I should be like all my other
19:07
lesbian friends, but I'm not. So I'm searching for all this
19:09
online and these girls are saying they started taking
19:14
testosterone, they had top surgery and they've never been
19:16
happier. And they're recounting their
19:18
whole journey. You go back on their pages and
19:20
it's my voice, two weeks on tea, my voice, one month on tea,
19:23
they're taking testosterone, their voice is deepening.
19:26
And two weeks on tea and, and, and all these different things.
19:30
And then they'll have a my first year on tea and they'll compare
19:33
their voice and they look happier.
19:36
Their face is fuller, their muscles are are fuller, their
19:39
shoulders are more rounded and they just look better overall,
19:42
at least I thought so because they looked more masculine.
19:45
And so I was thinking that's how I should be.
19:47
And I'm watching them and they are so happy taking the
19:49
testosterone and then they get the top surgery and I'm watching
19:52
their top surgery videos. What what that is is a dumb
19:55
mastectomy and they do top surgery reveal videos where
19:59
their chest is binded after surgery.
20:01
They have all their bandages from their from their
20:04
mastectomy. And they go back to the doctor a
20:07
week later or something, and the doctor cuts off their bandages
20:10
and opens their chest and they see their chest flat for the
20:12
first time. And a lot of those Youtubers
20:16
would record themselves having that chest reveal video and then
20:22
post it. They would be so happy most of
20:24
the time that they'd be moved to tears.
20:26
If you look up chest reveal videos, most of the girls will
20:30
be moved to tears because they're just so elated about
20:34
having their breasts removed. And I mean, I'm seeing that in
20:38
me, in my depression. I'm thinking, OK, So what I'm
20:42
feeling is dysphoria. It's an extreme discomfort with
20:45
my biological sex. It's gender dysphoria.
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21:58
So when you first went to a gender clinic, what was that
22:01
experience like? When I went, I thought that it
22:04
was going to be a lot harder to actually get started on
22:07
testosterone because I thought they didn't just hand it out to
22:11
anybody and I didn't have a therapist.
22:14
So one of the one of the rules is that I should have a
22:18
therapist for at least six months to make sure that I have
22:21
the gender dysphoria. But instead when I went and I
22:25
told them I don't have a therapist, I know I need to get
22:27
set up with one. They actually just had me go for
22:30
an appointment with an in office clinician who diagnosed me with
22:33
gender dysphoria and then was able to write a prescription for
22:36
testosterone without more appointments.
22:38
The same day. It was just, yeah, it was either
22:40
the same day or I have to or I had to schedule a couple weeks
22:43
out to get in with that in office clinician.
22:46
I don't recall 100% but that's all it was.
22:49
I just made an appointment and they do same day appointments.
22:52
If you call and you try to schedule a week ahead, like no
22:54
we get a lot of cancellations. It's it's same day only so you
22:57
call like 9:00 AM and I would have to drive down to Boston.
23:00
I didn't. I didn't live too far, but it
23:02
was far enough that I would have liked to know in advance if I
23:05
needed the day off or something, especially from classes or had a
23:08
part time job. But I just went to my
23:11
appointment, told them I don't have a therapist.
23:13
They set me up with somebody in their office and right away I
23:16
had a prescription for testosterone.
23:18
What were the questions like that they asked you to determine
23:21
whether or not you had gender dysphoria?
23:23
Almost exactly what you asked me with.
23:26
What was your childhood like? And I said I was a tomboy.
23:29
I liked Spider Man. I think I mentioned that I had
23:32
an interest in astronomy and that was on the letter for
23:36
approval for everything. Meaning she must be a trans man
23:39
because she likes astronomy. Because I ran, right?
23:43
Because I like science and superheroes.
23:45
I liked it as a child. I didn't even still like it into
23:48
adulthood or into my early adulthood.
23:50
It was just, you know, when I was growing up, I was 10 years
23:53
old, I just for some reason, loved Spider Man.
23:55
Every pretend game I would play, I would want to be Spider Man.
23:59
Or for Halloween, I would want to wear the Spider Man costume.
24:02
And that was that was one of the things that she was asking me
24:05
about. How did you feel during puberty?
24:08
I felt uncomfortable. That's another sign of gender
24:10
dysphoria. So there's just a lot of these
24:12
signs. I don't know if she asked me
24:15
this specifically in our appointment, but I know that one
24:18
of them is if you're uncomfortable with how your
24:19
voice sounds in a recording, they will say that could be a
24:23
sign of dysphoria, even though like everybody is uncomfortable
24:27
with how their voice sounds in a recording.
24:29
You mentioned you were feeling some, you experienced some
24:32
anxiety or some depression or feelings of anxiety and
24:34
depression, which you could somebody might say those are
24:37
comorbidities, you know, or these are other mental health
24:41
struggles you're maybe facing that are really responsible for
24:43
some of the identity issues potentially.
24:46
I mean, these are all again, some things that some like a
24:49
mental health professional might say.
24:50
Were those discussed at all your experiences of depression or of
24:55
anxiety? No, a lot of times what happens
24:57
that it wasn't discussed. I actually went out of my way
25:00
not to talk about it because I thought I wouldn't be approved
25:02
for testosterone. And I figured a 45 minute
25:05
appointment, I can avoid talking about anxiety, depression,
25:09
everything because she's not going to know me long enough to
25:12
figure any of this stuff out. So I was thinking if all I need
25:15
to do is prove that I'm ready for hormones in 45 minutes, I
25:19
can do that. Just pretend like everything's
25:21
fine. But I know what I need.
25:23
And that's exactly what I did. So we did not talk about any
25:27
anxiety except for the confusion during puberty and why I feel
25:32
like I have dysphoria. So it was just, well, I'm just
25:34
uncomfortable with my sex and I know what I need.
25:37
It was not at this depression. I have this anxiety.
25:39
But even if I had talked to her about those things, I'm not sure
25:45
it would have mattered because what people will say, and it
25:50
might not be everybody, but this is a common thought process
25:54
within transgender circles, is no matter what ailment you have,
25:58
it can be OCD, autism, just general anxiety, depression,
26:02
anything like that. They wouldn't say that that's
26:05
causing the gender dysphoria. They would say that the gender
26:08
dysphoria is making those things worse.
26:10
So you should deal with the gender dysphoria in order to
26:14
help those other things or in order to alleviate the symptoms
26:16
of those other comorbidities, as they say.
26:19
And the way to deal with the gender dysphoria for a
26:21
biological woman is initially testosterone.
26:24
Yes, actually that was in one of the things that the gender
26:27
clinic wrote for me and signed off that I could have
26:30
testosterone and surgeries was that the only known intervention
26:35
is I forget the I forget exactly the words they used for it, but
26:40
hormones and surgery is what they put is they said it's the
26:42
only known intervention. They didn't, they didn't talk
26:45
about, you know, outgrowing it, anything like that.
26:49
They didn't talk about maybe you can try to become comfortable in
26:54
your gender. Maybe you can try to, you know,
26:56
just mold yourself. Just have your own personality.
26:59
You know, you can, you can be yourself, but you're still a
27:02
woman there. There was none of that.
27:03
It was just this is the intervention and this is what
27:06
we're going to do. When they prescribed you
27:08
testosterone, did they discuss the risks of testosterone as a
27:11
female taking it? They did, but I think that they
27:13
left some things out because some things that I'm still
27:16
discovering I never knew were risks of testosterone.
27:19
So they talk about, they have this whole list of this can
27:22
happen, this can happen, this can happen.
27:24
Honestly, I don't even really remember most of what's on the
27:27
list. They, they went through it kind
27:29
of fast. She actually the the nurse who
27:31
was walking me through it, I said, I I saw this on YouTube
27:35
and she said, oh, OK, well, you saw it on YouTube and I just
27:38
kind of, I just kind of signed it and that was that.
27:40
Like she didn't actually talk it through with you.
27:42
She just very quickly, this, this, this, this, this listed
27:45
off the items on there, but that was it.
27:47
I said I don't have any questions.
27:48
I, you know, I saw it all on on YouTube and it was just OK,
27:52
That's fine. What was the thing that you
27:54
think they left out? Oh, it was ovarian cysts.
27:57
I'm not sure if that's on the. Sounds like a big deal, yeah?
28:01
It does. So I I'm not sure if it's on the
28:04
informed consent paperwork or if it, if it wasn't back then and
28:07
if it is now I'm not sure. But from what I understand, a
28:10
lot of detransitioners are finding out that they have
28:13
ovarian cysts. And now I have had a
28:17
hysterectomy at this point so and, and my ovaries were
28:19
removed. But I do remember that when I
28:21
had the ultrasound before the hysterectomy, they did see that
28:25
I had cysts on one of my ovaries, but they didn't explore
28:28
it any any further. The gender clinic just said
28:31
sometimes people just have cysts on their ovaries and it's not
28:34
really a big deal. And so I'm, well, all right, I
28:37
mean, I'm not going to have them that much longer anyway.
28:39
So we just, we just got rid of them.
28:42
I thought that was perfectly fine, perfectly normal.
28:45
And then I see online a lot of D transitioners are saying that
28:48
they have ovarian cysts and they think it's a result of the
28:51
testosterone. No, I can't say for sure, but it
28:55
seems like possible at least. What was the impact of the
28:59
testosterone on you? How did you feel afterwards and.
29:02
I felt great on my testosterone It, it was probably the most
29:05
amazing experience of my life because it's a steroid, so
29:08
you're supposed to feel like you're like, you're high, like
29:10
you're on top of the world, not high like like you're smoking
29:13
crack or something, but just just like you feel really good
29:18
and you are on steroids and you feel great and you feel strong.
29:21
That's exactly how I felt. So the first thing that happened
29:25
was I noticed my voice was getting deeper and I felt a lot
29:30
stronger. My muscles seemed to be a little
29:31
bit bigger. Even without working out.
29:34
If I needed to carry something heavy, it was a lot easier for
29:36
me to do it once I started on testosterone.
29:38
And because, you know, I'm walking a little bit straighter,
29:41
I just have more confidence because of the hormones, not
29:43
because I just magically have more confidence.
29:47
I'm thinking this is great. This means that this was exactly
29:50
the right answer for me, that what I was supposed to do was
29:53
start on the testosterone because it's cured my depression
29:56
and it's cured my anxiety and it's made everything better and
29:59
I feel so much more confident. People would even say to me that
30:03
they've noticed I look so much more comfortable in my own skin
30:07
taking the testosterone just because I had that high from the
30:13
from the testosterone. I don't really know what else to
30:14
call it that. I would stand up straighter.
30:17
I felt more confident in myself just just because of the
30:20
testosterone and its natural effects on anybody who takes it.
30:24
There is a lot of research on the impact of testosterone on
30:27
both men and women, and there's actually testosterone therapy
30:31
that women can take just as women not to transition but to
30:35
help them. And this is just a quote from
30:37
here of a woman experiencing testosterone therapy.
30:40
I feel sharper now mentally than I did 10 years ago.
30:43
She has less anxiety and more confidence, Gets at least 8
30:46
hours of sleep a night compared to six pre.
30:47
Testosterone has welcomed back the energy she needs exercise
30:51
regularly. She's also lost 6% of her body
30:53
fat since starting TRT, and her libido has improved.
30:57
Yep, that sounds about right. So especially the energy that
31:01
you just, you can have so much energy.
31:03
You can just what I would do because I was still in college.
31:07
So I would go outside and I would play street hockey or
31:10
basketball and I could just play for hours where usually when
31:14
you're getting a little bit older, you're maybe you're not
31:17
working out everyday or maybe you're not playing sports,
31:19
you're not AD 1 athlete. You start to go out less and
31:22
less and play fewer pickup games with your friends over the
31:25
years. But for me, it was just more and
31:27
more. I always had the energy for it.
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Did you experience any negative effects of testosterone?
32:22
Yes. When I was about four or five
32:27
years into the testosterone treatment, when I would go out
32:30
to play basketball and street hockey with all my friends, I
32:33
would end up, I had, I had this really bad abdominal pain that I
32:36
would end up doubled over in pain, not able to get up.
32:40
And I had no idea what it was. Then I found out, I went to the
32:43
gender clinic, I'm told. I told them I'm having this
32:45
terrible pain and I think it's on my uterus.
32:48
And they told me that what happens with testosterone
32:51
therapy is that my uterus can sort of shrivel and then all of
32:56
the muscles that it's attached to, muscles or tendons or
32:58
something, they all pull on each other and it just causes that
33:02
crazy amount of pain. And for that, they recommend a
33:05
hysterectomy. Did you have a hysterectomy?
33:08
I did, yes. I had a hysterectomy.
33:11
Well first I had my top surgery so I had a double mastectomy a
33:15
year into testosterone treatment.
33:17
I just went back to the gender clinic, told them I'm ready for
33:19
surgery. They did the same thing, sat me
33:21
down with an in office person, had me talk about needing
33:25
surgery and dysphoria and all that.
33:27
Signed off on the surgery and I was able to have it just about a
33:31
year after. I How old were you at this
33:32
point? I was 19 when I had or maybe I
33:37
was 20 when I had the the double mastectomy.
33:39
Was there any discussion about if you have children in the
33:42
future you won't be able to breastfeed them anything like
33:44
that? Not really.
33:46
But even if there was, my response was always, if I'm
33:49
going to be like, like, if I'm going to be a man, then I don't
33:51
need these parts on me. So it's very much just the, the
33:55
goal is to become a man. And so I don't want breasts
33:59
because that would not let me be closer to being a man.
34:02
And, and that was always taken as a fine answer.
34:05
I'm thinking, well, I am going to be a man after this surgery,
34:08
so shouldn't have breasts. And that was just kind of my
34:11
thought process and it was never corrected by any doctor along
34:14
the way. So I had a double mastectomy.
34:19
Maybe maybe I was 20 or I just turned 20.
34:22
And then four years later is when I was having that serious
34:26
abdominal pain and I was going to go have a hysterectomy.
34:30
So I went down to Boston ready for my hysterectomy.
34:33
They would take my uterus, cervix, fallopian tubes in both
34:36
ovaries. And the surgery itself, it
34:41
didn't go well. So what happened was I came out
34:43
of surgery, they put me in recovery and my condition just
34:47
kept getting worse and worse and worse throughout the evening.
34:51
So they decided they would just admit me to the hospital just to
34:55
to keep track of me and make sure that I would start getting
34:58
better. At some point there came a point
35:00
in the night, I have no idea what time I had a morning
35:03
surgery. So at some point in the night, I
35:06
was just in so much pain. I wanted the doctor to give me
35:09
some sort of a pain medicine because I didn't know why I was
35:12
in so much pain. They had already given me pain
35:14
medicine. I didn't even know that.
35:16
And I'm just going back and forth, just tossing and turning
35:19
on the hospital bed. But I have the IV and so I can't
35:21
move too much. And then I, I felt very sick.
35:26
And then all of a sudden I just passed out.
35:28
And then I came back and I passed out and I was just in and
35:30
out of consciousness. And I remember the the nurse is
35:33
all ordering an ultrasound. They said we have to do an
35:36
abdominal ultrasound. So they just started doing it.
35:38
I'm still drifting in and out of consciousness.
35:40
They have my blood pressure, which is extremely low.
35:44
My heart rate is extremely high. And in the ultrasound they
35:48
realize that I've been bleeding internally that whole time that
35:52
I was in recovery, that one of my arteries was open.
35:55
I don't know if it was supposed to be, if it was not supposed to
35:57
be open during the surgery, but if it was supposed to be open,
36:01
it was definitely supposed to be sewn back shut.
36:03
But it wasn't. So they rushed me back in for
36:06
emergency surgery. I'm still like in and out kind
36:09
of kind of know what's going on kind of don't.
36:13
They did the emergency surgery. I woke up during a blood
36:16
transfusion. I needed three blood
36:17
transfusions before they could discharge me and they have to
36:21
make sure that I was OK to walk. And after that I went home.
36:26
I was able to make a full recovery, which I think is
36:28
amazing because usually when you lose that much but like your
36:31
organs can start shutting down. But none of my organs were
36:36
shutting down. I was conscious and unconscious
36:38
and kind of in and out of that, but somehow still made a full
36:41
recovery. That's how it sounds.
36:46
Very scary to go through something like that.
36:49
I want to come back to it because I know there is an
36:52
experience where you woke up and you decided this is not the life
36:56
I want to lead. But you mentioned there were
36:57
four years before you had the hysterectomy, between the
37:01
vasectomy and the hysterectomy. And you're on T this whole time.
37:04
Yes. And you're living as a man this
37:06
whole time. Yes.
37:07
What was the? What were those years like?
37:09
Were you happy? Did you ever have any doubts?
37:12
What was your experience like? I honestly didn't have any
37:15
doubts the whole time that I was taking testosterone or having
37:18
these surgeries right up until the end where I just couldn't
37:22
deny anything anymore. I just felt normal because most
37:26
people in my life, they didn't realize that I was actually a
37:29
woman. Some people could figure it out,
37:31
but for the most part, I could just go about my everyday life
37:34
and people didn't really pick up on it.
37:37
Some of my. Friends were a man.
37:39
They thought I was a man. And you had to make you used a
37:41
man's name. Yes, I did.
37:42
I used the name Kaden. So it was close enough to Katie
37:45
and and the whole point in doing that was my parents said it's
37:49
already hard enough to get me to answer to my name that I can't
37:53
change it too much because I wanted something cool.
37:55
Like I wanted something Zachary or something.
37:57
But my but my parents said it has to be similar enough that
38:00
when we actually call your name, you answer because that was a
38:02
big issue that I just never could hear my own name being
38:06
called if I was wrapped up in an activity.
38:08
So I went with Kate and it's close enough.
38:11
But the whole time that I'm transitioning, I had no regrets,
38:15
no issues. Everybody would just interact
38:17
with me thinking that I'm a man. Nobody ever thought anything of
38:20
it. In fact, when I would tell my
38:22
close friends, when I would come out to them, if you, if we want
38:25
to use that language, I would say, you know, I'm actually a
38:28
woman. Like I'm, I'm transgender.
38:29
I've been transitioning for however many years, 567 years.
38:33
And they just kind of wait for a punchline.
38:36
Like they think I'm telling a joke about trans people and I
38:39
tell them, no, I, I am actually transgender.
38:42
I can show you my top surgery scars.
38:44
I'm not joking. One of my friends, when I did
38:46
that, he even said I could just be from some heart surgery when
38:50
you were a kid. So people really did not believe
38:53
me. How did that make you feel when
38:55
you passed so well as a biological man?
38:59
It made me feel really good to pass as a man because I could
39:04
just live a normal life and not think about gender in the
39:07
background. The the hardest thing for me
39:10
transitioning was having to go so long without using the
39:14
bathroom because I didn't want to use the men's bathroom
39:17
because I knew I wasn't a man. I really shouldn't use the men's
39:19
bathroom. But when I was working as a
39:21
custodian, I did have to clean the men's bathroom.
39:23
And I felt kind of bad because I didn't put the sign up because
39:26
it's you can put a sign up that says like women are cleaning,
39:30
but that didn't work. People would still walk in and
39:32
not see a woman. So it was tough.
39:34
But I never used the men's bathroom.
39:37
And because I looked like a man and everybody thought I was, I
39:40
couldn't use the woman's room. So instead, and I did it to
39:43
myself. So no need to feel bad for me or
39:45
anything, but I would just have to go so long without using the
39:49
bathroom or structure my day around being able to drive back
39:52
home so that I can use the bathroom or to a Dunkin' Donuts
39:54
because it's just single person bathrooms.
39:57
So I wouldn't be uncomfortable. I wouldn't make anybody else
39:59
uncomfortable. That was the hardest part,
40:02
everything else. And when you're saying you
40:04
couldn't use the men's bathroom, why?
40:06
Well, because I knew I wasn't a man and I could have just gone
40:09
into the stall, done what I needed to do.
40:11
Nobody would have thought anything about it.
40:13
But I would have been super uncomfortable because then I'm
40:16
taking my clothes off at least partially in a men's bathroom
40:19
where I just don't belong. And also the men's bathrooms,
40:25
not always, but most of the time they're grosser so I just
40:29
generally didn't prefer them anyway.
40:31
Sometimes the women's bathrooms are pretty bad, but the men's
40:34
bathroom? Feel like I'm a man but not this
40:38
part, right? I did not want that.
40:43
So, so there's something called bottom surgery, of course, and
40:46
there's certainly a number of male or trans men.
40:51
So biological females who pursue, I believe they call it
40:55
bottom surgery for trans men as they do for trans women.
40:58
Did you consider that? So I didn't really get to the
41:02
point where I considered bottom surgery because I ended up D
41:05
transitioning before that came. I had it was in the back of my
41:09
head bottom surgery, but it wasn't anything that it was time
41:14
for. I had had the double mastectomy
41:16
and then for four years I didn't have any surgeries.
41:19
I was just living my life perfectly comfortable.
41:22
And then I had the hysterectomy. And at that point, that's
41:25
usually when people will start considering bottom surgery.
41:27
You think about what kind you want because there are different
41:30
kinds that you can have. And I was just reaching the
41:34
point where I would have started considering this, maybe looking
41:37
for a consultation with a surgeon.
41:39
There was nothing stopping me. I didn't have any reason not to
41:42
consider it, except that the time just hadn't come for me
41:44
yet. But after my hysterectomy, not
41:50
long after, six to eight months after is when I started de
41:53
transitioning. So there wasn't enough time to
41:56
recover from the whole ordeal of what the hysterectomy put me
42:00
through and then also start gearing up for another surgery.
42:02
That's just six to eight months. My family's still processing all
42:06
of what happened because during the hysterectomy or, or when I
42:10
was bleeding out. So during the emergency surgery,
42:12
my parents knew what was going on because if I didn't wake up
42:16
in time to sign the consent forms, my mom, she was
42:19
authorized to, she was going to drive over to the hospital to do
42:22
it. So my parents, my whole family,
42:25
they were well aware of what was going on, that I had bled out,
42:27
that I'd lost enough blood for three blood transfusions.
42:31
And they were waiting by the phone that night basically to
42:34
learn whether or not their child was dead.
42:37
So I could not put my family through another one of those
42:40
surgeries. I had no idea what would happen.
42:43
So I did decide after the after the hysterectomy, even though at
42:47
that point doctors would e-mail and they did, the doctors
42:50
emailed. These are the doctors you can go
42:52
to for bottom surgery just to, you know, get me pointed in that
42:56
direction. I just thought, I can't, I can't
42:58
think about any surgeries right now.
43:00
I can't do that to myself. I can't do that to my family.
43:02
It's just not the right time for me.
43:04
Still. It's going to have to wait a
43:05
little bit longer. How did your parents react to
43:08
you doing this? All these different
43:11
transitioning steps just to the testosterone dressing as a man
43:14
taking on a man's name. You mentioned they called, they
43:16
asked for the name Kaden, which is similar to Katie.
43:18
It sounds like they generally were approving of it.
43:21
You could say so. My parents, when I first started
43:23
transitioning, I told them I'm transgender now I'm going to go
43:27
by this name. They didn't know what any of it
43:29
was. They didn't immediately start
43:31
affirming all of it. Especially my dad.
43:34
He was more just like this. This isn't how it works.
43:36
I have a daughter. This, this isn't quite right,
43:39
but it was at the same time that the media was showing all these
43:45
trans personalities. Bruce Jenner wanted to become
43:48
Caitlyn Jenner at the same time. So here it is celebrated in the
43:51
media. If my parents went to look it up
43:54
on Google, I don't know if they ever did, but if they did, they
43:58
were going to find all these videos and articles approving
44:01
it. So at first, my parents were not
44:04
like, let's drop everything and go full force into this gender
44:08
transition. They did ask me, Are you sure?
44:10
Have you done your research? Are you sure that this is what
44:12
you want to do? And they didn't have too much of
44:15
A framework to say this is wrong.
44:18
It was just I was a tomboy growing up.
44:21
I wore boys clothes, not exclusively, but over 90% of the
44:25
time I would want to wear the boys clothing and want to wear
44:28
the Spider Man T-shirts usually. And they just thought, OK,
44:33
that's kind of how you've always been.
44:35
So we can do that much. And the further I got into
44:38
transitioning, I was taking the testosterone and I think they
44:41
were seeing how happy I was and they were thinking, OK, this
44:45
must be the right thing then. And I did tell them right when I
44:48
started on testosterone, I told them this.
44:51
Nobody else told them this, but I said if there was a pill that
44:54
I could take to take away my gender dysphoria so that I
44:57
didn't have to do this to my body, I wouldn't.
45:00
But I've gone to the doctors. There is no cure for this except
45:04
for transitioning. And I think that was what put us
45:07
all on the trans train. Like, all right, then if this is
45:12
what we're doing, then let's just do it.
45:13
And then they started supporting me.
45:16
As much as you would expect parents to support a kid if you
45:19
think if they thought that the that the decision they were
45:21
making is right. Were there?
45:23
Were there? Was there anyone else in your
45:25
life? Family members or friends,
45:27
anyone from your childhood that you were still close with or in
45:29
touch with that did not get on the trans train.
45:34
Kind of grandparents, but they didn't say anything.
45:38
So they did pray for me. I actually found out that my
45:41
grandmother started this. She went to a church or
45:45
something nearby because because like I said, my whole family,
45:49
they're Catholic, haven't been going to church.
45:51
But she decided, you know what, I got to go and she had asked
45:55
she. Started going to church when you
45:56
started transitioning or yourself?
45:58
At least church events. OK, interesting something.
46:01
Grandma did, yes. So was that sort of seem to you
46:03
like your? Or actually, I think what
46:06
happened was my grandmother, when I first started
46:08
transitioning, she had gone to her friend who is Catholic, and
46:12
she's in prayer groups and all these things.
46:15
So my grandmother asked her friend, can you and your prayer
46:18
group pray for my granddaughter? I never knew about that.
46:23
Nobody knew who they were praying for.
46:25
They were just praying for an unnamed grandchild who is
46:29
confused about his or her gender.
46:31
I don't even know if they had that much information.
46:33
I found out just recently through another Catholic circle,
46:36
because I spoke at a Catholic Church in New Hampshire.
46:41
They said that they they kind of put the pieces together and
46:44
realized that I was the person they had been praying for the
46:47
whole time. How?
46:48
Many years. 7:00 or 8:00. Years probably because I can't
46:52
imagine my grandmother maybe it was less than that maybe she
46:55
went after I had top surgery and it was only 5 or 6 years.
46:59
But there was there's a lot of prayers for me to come back from
47:03
that. And my grandmother didn't tell
47:08
me that she. Voiced that she.
47:09
Was concerned when I when I first got in the car and I said
47:14
Graham, guess what, I'm not a lesbian and she was thinking
47:18
well good. And then I and then I said I'm
47:20
actually transgender and she said let's go back to lesbian
47:25
so. She didn't.
47:26
She didn't. Love it to say the least and I
47:28
do feel horrible still. I didn't realize what it was
47:31
doing to my little sister because she's growing up with an
47:34
older sister and then all of a sudden I'm turning around and
47:37
I'm saying I'm not your sister. I was never your sister.
47:40
I'm actually your brother and I didn't realize in the moment
47:44
what I had taken away from her. Did she ever?
47:47
Express something. About what you had taken away
47:49
from her or what? What do you mean when you say
47:51
that? I think she expressed it mostly
47:52
to my. Grandmother, maybe to my mom.
47:56
I think she talks to my grandmother more though, Like
47:57
they're, they're very close, very similar.
48:00
She didn't really say much to me.
48:02
And a couple years into it, a year or two into it, into my
48:06
transition, I mean, she wrote a short essay at school about how
48:11
much she admires me. And it started off as I was her
48:14
role model growing up because I'm her big sister.
48:17
And then it turned into she's really proud of me that I'm
48:20
doing what makes me happy. So there was this flip in it
48:24
that until I read it years later, de transitioning, I
48:27
didn't even realize that there was that.
48:30
There was that change in tone from I'm looking up to my
48:33
sister. And now all of a sudden I'm
48:37
proud of my brother for making himself happy like it was.
48:41
It was just a very, very strange thing to read.
48:43
And looking back on it years later, that really broke my
48:47
heart. Because then I realized exactly
48:49
what I had done. That she had to completely shift
48:52
how she thought about everything in order to accommodate my
48:56
identity. That wasn't even based in truth,
48:59
and she knew it. Tell me the story of how.
49:02
You decided to detransition because because so far, and I so
49:06
appreciate you sharing all this, it sounds like you felt largely
49:09
speaking, pretty happy you were on testosterone.
49:12
You're getting all these, you know, good side effects.
49:14
You obviously have the bad side effect later on, but then you
49:16
just remove the hysterectomy. There was a little bit rough for
49:19
a patch, but then you got over it.
49:21
You healed, you were OK. Where did the detransition
49:24
decision come from? The decision to detransition.
49:27
Came almost out of nowhere. What happened was I started
49:32
feeling I had my hysterectomy in August of 2020.
49:35
I started feeling like maybe something's off.
49:40
In March or April of 2021, I think it was in May, I went to
49:46
get your typical men's haircut. It was short on the sides,
49:51
little tiny bit longer on the top, but not really it enough
49:54
that you could comb it. So it was a short haircut.
49:57
It was a masculine haircut and it's the one I've been getting
49:59
forever. I went to a good Barber shop.
50:02
I went there and they cut my hair.
50:04
Everything was great. I was smiling, talking to my
50:06
Barber, gave the tip, paid for the haircut, went back home to
50:10
shower. I was working the night shift so
50:12
I needed to get all the little hairs off the back of my neck so
50:14
I wasn't itchy all night. I went home and I looked in the
50:18
mirror and for some reason I'm looking in the mirror.
50:21
I'd looked like a man for so long.
50:23
Everybody who looked at me thought I looked like a man.
50:25
I even thought it, but I'm looking in the mirror and I'm
50:27
only seeing myself as a woman and I had probably stubble on my
50:31
chin and everything, a nice fresh men's haircut and I just
50:35
can't stop seeing myself as a woman, like feminine.
50:39
So I just kind of shook it off and said, well, I got to take a
50:42
shower. I can't be late for work.
50:44
So I, I got in the shower. When I got out of the shower, I
50:46
looked back in the mirror and I just started crying because I
50:48
could not stop seeing myself as a woman and I felt just
50:53
ridiculous. I'm looking at myself, all the
50:56
damage that I had done because I'm standing in the mirror was
50:58
after I'd taken a shower, I can see the scars on my chest and
51:02
I'm thinking, look at how much I've done to myself.
51:04
And on top of it, I have a men's haircut.
51:07
I had just gotten that fresh men's haircut and it just broke
51:10
me. But because I was still taking
51:12
testosterone, I stopped crying. And it was like, I'm not going
51:15
to cry right now. And I could just be done with
51:17
crying if I wanted to put on my work uniform, went to work and
51:21
didn't think about it until the nights would pass that I would
51:25
think about it. And like, maybe I really do need
51:27
to de transition and it keeps coming back to me.
51:30
And I started listening to the Bible in a year podcast with
51:35
Father Mike Schmitz. I think I actually started
51:37
listening to that. And I've been listening, by the
51:39
way, to Matt Walsh the entire time that I'm de transitioning.
51:43
Whenever he started recording his podcast, I was listening.
51:46
So I'm actively transgender listening to conservative shows.
51:50
And I, I don't know, I just, I'd gone to LGBT support groups and
51:59
I hated them because you couldn't be your own person.
52:02
I remember it was the 2016 election that just passed and I
52:06
went to the support group. It was a few days later after
52:09
Trump had won. And in 2016, I'm two years into
52:13
transitioning, had top surgery and everything, and I voted for
52:17
Trump and I went to the the LGBT support group and the prompt
52:23
when you go around the circle, they pass a rainbow talking
52:26
stick, but they didn't like me. So the rainbow talking stick has
52:30
a lot of sparkles and glitter on it.
52:32
I don't love sparkles and glitter because you can't get it
52:36
off of anything it touches. So I would hold this rainbow
52:40
talking stick kind of, you know, out here with two fingers.
52:43
That way the sparkles didn't drip on me because I was also
52:47
thinking, I want to be a man and I want to be a straight man.
52:51
And if I'm covered in glitter, I'm going to look pretty funny.
52:55
So I didn't want that. So I would kind of hold it at
52:58
arm's length. And and the prompt that day at
53:01
the at the LGBT support group was, how much did you cry
53:07
Tuesday night when Trump won the election?
53:10
And the person next to me is the one who started talking and then
53:14
he passed the stick the other way.
53:16
So I was going to be dead last. And every single person, there's
53:19
probably 20 of them because they all needed a lot of support that
53:21
night. So there's probably about 20
53:25
people in that big circle. And each one of them, I was
53:28
still crying on Wednesday and Thursday and I was crying for
53:31
two hours. And you know, I'm, I'm trying to
53:33
get over it. It's only going to be 4 years
53:35
and, and all this kind of stuff. And then it gets to me and I'm
53:38
dead last and everybody in the room is crying.
53:41
And I just felt so horrible crying.
53:45
So I have. The rainbow talking stick and I
53:49
felt horrible, but I still didn't want the sparkles on me
53:51
so I still held it, 2 fingers at arm's length and went through
53:55
the prompt. My name's Kaden, I'm 21.
53:58
Hear him pronouns. I didn't cry on Tuesday night
54:02
because I voted for Trump. And it was.
54:07
I I don't. Think I'd ever heard a room full
54:12
of? LGBT identified people so.
54:16
Quiet. No facilitator got up to take
54:19
the stick from me. I had to set it down on the
54:22
floor. Your punishment you had.
54:24
To keep it, I had to set it down on the floor.
54:27
And walk to the snack table while everyone just sat there in
54:30
shock. I left early.
54:31
I couldn't stay any longer. I was like, this is the most
54:34
uncomfortable experience I've ever had but it's also hilarious
54:38
and I feel bad about laughing. So I just had to go to my car
54:41
and call my friend. You'll never believe just.
54:46
So did you have during? Those years I.
54:48
Mean this sounds like the support group was not a support
54:52
team at that time. Did you go back to support
54:54
groups during those four years? I did one time, they were doing
54:57
some. Mini golf thing.
54:58
So I wanted to go and so I did you had you had to pay for it.
55:02
It wasn't like this free mini golf thing that I was taking
55:04
advantage of. But I figured well you know what
55:06
I'm not doing anything else. It's AI don't remember what day
55:09
of the week it was Monday night or something.
55:11
So I figured, you know what, I'll I'll head over and and go
55:14
to mini golf with these people. And I did.
55:17
I had a good time and nobody wanted to play with me, but
55:20
whatever. Did you have other LGBT?
55:22
Identified people, LGBT identified friends, People who
55:25
were friends of yours during that time.
55:27
Yes, I had one good friend. Who identified as lesbian and I
55:30
was actually in a relation, a romantic relationship with a
55:34
with a girl at that time. Don't know how she identified
55:37
maybe bisexual or something and they were both on the same page
55:41
as me. They both voted for Trump too.
55:43
But that's why they never went to those groups because they're
55:45
like you. You can't have an opinion if you
55:48
go there. You you very much just have to
55:50
conform to whatever they say. So if you're in favor of
55:56
anything that they're. Not really.
55:57
It doesn't matter. What it is they if they say
55:59
today we like the paper straws, then you have to like the paper
56:01
straws or you're not allowed. You can't even voice that.
56:04
It's a little frustrating sometimes, but so I I stopped
56:09
going after that. Did you did you have any?
56:15
Like what was your faith like? Did you have any kind of a faith
56:18
during that time toward the end of my transitioning?
56:21
When I started listening to the Bible in a Year podcast, because
56:25
it was before that big wake up call in the mirror looking at
56:28
the haircut, I'd started listening to it.
56:30
I'd listen here and there and sorry to interrupt but this was
56:32
after the. Hysterectomy or before after the
56:34
hysterectomy and and was there. Was the near death?
56:36
Experience with the hysterectomy, yes and I don't
56:39
know if I should be calling it that, but that kind of serious
56:41
that's probably pretty health emergency you had.
56:43
Did. That inspire you to say oh, I
56:45
want to like connect with God and start listening to this
56:47
podcast. Actually no, I had told my.
56:51
My girlfriend romantic girlfriend who I who I
56:54
mentioned, I told her we should start going to church and she
56:59
thought I was crazy. She was like we can't go to
57:01
church. They don't like gay people so
57:03
that we can find one that does and she's and then she said,
57:06
you'll find some like hippie dippie liberal church who will
57:10
like gay people but won't say anything meaningful.
57:13
I was like, all right, fine. So I did go here and there to a
57:16
couple non denominational churches just to go on Sunday
57:19
because I felt like I needed to. That was before the
57:21
hysterectomy, after the hysterectomy, when I started
57:26
listening to the Bible in the year podcast with Father Mike
57:28
Schmitz. I.
57:31
Didn't so much feel like. Something's really wrong, but
57:35
slowly over. Time there was.
57:37
A. Was this right?
57:39
Was this? Wrong.
57:40
Well, I did it, so I guess I'll just keep going with it.
57:43
It's not that big a deal. I just won't think too much of
57:45
it. I was feeling like I.
57:47
Wanted to go to church. And actually my first thought
57:51
when I started de transitioning was I know where I should go.
57:54
I should go to a Latin Mass, but I didn't because I was very torn
57:59
on wearing the veil because I looked like a man.
58:01
I didn't have any women's clothing yet.
58:04
And so I was like, well, you don't have to wear the veil.
58:09
At Latin Mass. Well, I thought you did without
58:11
the veil, but I thought you did at the.
58:14
Time. It's lovely.
58:14
But you don't have to, right? So I thought that you did.
58:17
Have to. So there were these little
58:19
pieces, Matt Walsh saying that transgenderism is weird and all
58:23
that kind of stuff. And did that offend you by the
58:26
way, 'cause you're a trans? You're a transgender person
58:28
listening to them, Not even a little, I agreed.
58:30
With them, I was like, these people are kind of weird.
58:34
A little eccentric in their ways, but.
58:36
All right, we'll go with it. And so I'm hearing this and I'm
58:40
thinking, OK, he's got a point, but maybe that point's not for
58:44
me. Maybe it's for everyone else who
58:46
just can't pick one gender. But since I picked one, it's not
58:50
really for me. That's kind of what I was
58:51
thinking. And then as I'm listening to the
58:53
Bible in a year, I really wasn't thinking at all about gender
58:57
until that day that I was looking in the mirror and I
59:01
could only see myself as a woman.
59:03
Then I thought it felt like my whole world just came crashing
59:06
down. Like I built this, this life on
59:10
my identity because it's my name, it's who I am.
59:13
I built my whole life. I'm I have a really good job.
59:16
I have friends, I have a big support group.
59:19
And I talked to a couple of my very close friends who I'm still
59:22
extremely close with. They were in my wedding.
59:24
I'm very close with them. One of them is my maid of honor,
59:27
and one time she. Asked me she.
59:31
Said if you could decide today and you had to stick with it
59:35
because I was going back and forth, should I be Katie?
59:37
Should I be Kaden? But she just asked me straight
59:39
up. She said if you could decide
59:41
today if you were going to be Katie or Kaden and you had to
59:44
stick with it for the rest of your life, what would you
59:46
choose? Without hesitation, I said I'd
59:47
be Katie. And she said, then why don't you
59:49
just do it? So what I did was I went to a
59:54
church in my neighborhood that my parents used to take us to
59:58
and grandparents used to take us to to light candles there.
1:00:01
And Saint Michael the Archangel was always my favorite one
1:00:05
because that's my birthday, so it is the feast day.
1:00:08
So that was always my favorite one.
1:00:10
I would always go to that one. And I went there for the
1:00:13
confessional hours with the priest over there and.
1:00:17
I was kind of sitting. There super.
1:00:18
Awkward. And then I went in to confess to
1:00:21
the priest about being transgender and just all this
1:00:23
stuff. Received absolution.
1:00:26
Went into the sanctuary to pray and.
1:00:31
Just kind of went. From there but even still after
1:00:33
that I was wishy washy like should I really de transition?
1:00:37
This is extremely hard. I don't know how to do it.
1:00:40
I would have to change my name and I didn't have the gender
1:00:43
clinic's help anymore. I would have to stop taking the,
1:00:45
the testosterone, start taking the estrogen.
1:00:47
And I didn't know how to do that because I don't have ovaries.
1:00:49
So I need to to take some form of estrogen.
1:00:53
And it was just this daunting task.
1:00:55
So in the summer of 2021, I did decide I need to stop taking the
1:01:00
testosterone. And so I just stopped, which is
1:01:03
not the best choice. I I would not advise it because
1:01:08
if you just stop taking testosterone but you can't make
1:01:10
estrogen then you have no hormones in your body and it's
1:01:13
not healthy. But that's what I did anyway.
1:01:16
Because I felt. That if I took the testosterone,
1:01:19
I was actively sinning. It was hurting my conscience to
1:01:21
take it. It's also not a good.
1:01:24
Idea to just. Let your health fail on you by
1:01:28
not taking it. But I was really stuck and I
1:01:31
thought, well, you know what? I'm not going to take it.
1:01:34
And whatever happens happens. But I cannot take that and still
1:01:39
be OK and still feel like I'm doing the right thing.
1:01:41
So for me, I decided to stop and I called the gender clinic, told
1:01:45
them that I would that I wanted to detransition.
1:01:49
But it was almost like they didn't want the detransition
1:01:51
statistic because they wanted to treat me as if I were a a a a
1:01:57
biological male transitioning to become a woman and then
1:02:01
prescribe me estrogen like that. Then they get 2 transitions.
1:02:04
Out of it, out of the deal, and I felt that they weren't.
1:02:07
Treating me properly, that maybe the estrogen is too much or too
1:02:10
little. And I I honestly thought that if
1:02:13
I took the estrogen that my breasts would start going back
1:02:18
almost immediately. I didn't know that was
1:02:21
impossible, that the surgery is permanent.
1:02:23
That can happen. Breasts will not grow back if
1:02:26
you take estrogen. But I thought it would.
1:02:27
Nobody told me that it couldn't happen.
1:02:31
And I told the gender clinic I can't, I can't do this right now
1:02:34
because I haven't told everybody that I was transgender.
1:02:38
I haven't told them all that I'm going to be a woman again.
1:02:40
And So what is what am I supposed to do when my breasts
1:02:43
start going back? And that's when they told me
1:02:46
that's not going to happen. What you've done is permanent.
1:02:49
And that's that's when I realized and I thought, OK,
1:02:52
maybe I can take the estrogen. But I also realized they had
1:02:56
just been. Lying to me, not treating.
1:02:58
Me properly so I didn't want to go to the gender clinic again.
1:03:02
I felt that the testosterone was a sin that was hurting my
1:03:06
conscience. I couldn't take the testosterone
1:03:08
and so I didn't want to give the gender clinic any more business.
1:03:11
I thought I can't go to them anymore.
1:03:13
And So what I did and and you can still tell my voice is a bit
1:03:17
deep, but it used to be deeper more masculine.
1:03:20
So I called some Women's Health places, the OBGYN doctors
1:03:25
places, and I said I just need to be treated for a surgical
1:03:29
menopause. I'll need testosterone
1:03:31
treatment. And I explained I was
1:03:33
transgender and I'm not taking testosterone.
1:03:36
So I I need estrogen. I don't have ovaries.
1:03:38
But a lot of times they would think that I'm saying I'm
1:03:41
transgender. And so they'd say you need a
1:03:43
gender clinic and they would send me over to a gender clinic.
1:03:45
And every person I called kept doing that was like you, you are
1:03:49
not understanding me. I am a biological woman who had
1:03:52
a hysterectomy. If my voice is a little bit
1:03:54
deeper, but I can still go to one of these doctors.
1:03:57
So actually went to my primary care Doctor Who my pastor
1:04:01
recommended for me to go to because she's a Christian woman
1:04:04
and she would understand exactly what's going on.
1:04:07
She did the whole referral process for me to go to the
1:04:11
Women's Health clinic to be able to start on estrogen and they
1:04:14
treated me properly taking the estrogen.
1:04:17
They gave me what I needed, made sure that they were checking my
1:04:19
blood. They said I needed a bone scan
1:04:22
for my osteoporosis risk from from all the hormones and
1:04:25
everything. But between the time I stopped
1:04:28
testosterone and finally found a doctor to start me on estrogen
1:04:33
was just. About six months, so I went.
1:04:37
Six months with nothing and I considered a few times because I
1:04:41
still had the testosterone. I figured if it was an emergency
1:04:43
and I really felt like I needed hormones I I could consider.
1:04:48
That I could pray about. That I could even ask my pastor
1:04:50
about that because I I had a pastor by then in in New
1:04:54
Hampshire. I didn't end up needing to.
1:04:57
Use it. I just kept going and my energy
1:05:00
slowly drained, but eventually I was able to to start on the
1:05:03
estrogen and from there it was kind of just piercing, piercing
1:05:10
everything together with my health, figuring out what
1:05:13
exactly had happened, what the long term effects are,
1:05:15
everything like that. There was no manual.
1:05:18
Though that you could use it sounds like for how to
1:05:21
detransition it was so easy. When I was first transitioning,
1:05:25
I changed, I did a legal name change, which the gender clinic
1:05:28
helped me with. They also helped me get all the
1:05:31
documents and signatures. I think there might have been
1:05:35
one other person who needed to do a signature, but all the
1:05:37
documents at the very least for my for me to change my license,
1:05:43
Social Security card, you got to change that when you change your
1:05:45
name in my birth certificate. I was able to change all of that
1:05:50
without any issues with a guiding hand from the gender
1:05:53
clinic. I wanted to de transition.
1:05:56
It took me a couple years to figure that out.
1:05:58
I I got married and still my birth certificate said mail
1:06:02
because I was having so much trouble fixing it.
1:06:04
I've gotten it fixed now, but the first time I changed it
1:06:08
easiest thing I'd ever done. The second time I went to change
1:06:12
things even though I did the same thing I did before.
1:06:15
It was just so much harder, you seem like.
1:06:19
A very. Confident person.
1:06:21
I think from your explanation about your friend groups, you
1:06:24
know, you kind of had this sense of confidence, like I don't want
1:06:27
to go back to that, you know, LGBT support therapy group or I
1:06:30
like these friends. We've, we actually know each
1:06:32
other. We're actually deep friends.
1:06:33
Sounds like you maintained deep relationships with people and,
1:06:38
and including your family and that kind of gave you this sense
1:06:40
of confidence in their decision making as you as you would make
1:06:43
them. Do you think people today, if
1:06:46
there's someone who is living as a transgender identity and they
1:06:50
might be doubting it in the back of their minds, like thinking
1:06:52
maybe I should detransition? Do you think it's difficult
1:06:56
today for people to detransition?
1:06:58
I think it's so difficult because.
1:07:00
A lot of people who are transgender do have the LGBT
1:07:06
relationships, and by that I don't even mean romantic
1:07:08
relationships, I mean friendships.
1:07:10
Their whole friend group might identify as LGBT or at least
1:07:14
support that stuff enough. Maybe they're in a romantic
1:07:16
relationship with somebody who is pro trans and it's really
1:07:20
hard. If I had decided.
1:07:24
To de transition. Just a couple years earlier I
1:07:27
would have lost my connections with my LGBT friends.
1:07:32
I ended up losing. Those connections anyway.
1:07:34
Because maybe they were a little bit shallower, I don't know.
1:07:38
And I and I and I ended up with, with much deeper relationships
1:07:42
with the friends who I'm still in contact with them.
1:07:43
They're still my best friends. But I think if you have an
1:07:48
entire community around you and you have all the support and
1:07:52
then you decide you're going to go a different way if they see.
1:07:56
That as hostile. Some people might be transition
1:07:58
and still be pro LGBT. Some people might not be.
1:08:01
Some people might be more like me, or they just, yeah, I'm at
1:08:04
Walsh's right the whole time. These, these people are just on
1:08:07
the wrong path. We got to pray for them.
1:08:09
They got to come back from this because this is not good.
1:08:13
If if, if they go in that direction, they might lose all
1:08:16
their support. I've seen stories of people who.
1:08:20
LGBT identified people usually. Gay or bisexual or something who
1:08:24
are in a romantic relationship with a trans person, trans
1:08:28
identified person who then decides to detransition and
1:08:31
they're torn off up about it. They don't want to call this
1:08:35
person their girlfriend or their boyfriend now because they don't
1:08:37
want to be be perceived as gay or straight or whatever,
1:08:41
whatever it is. So that's that's extremely
1:08:46
difficult. And when you don't have people
1:08:48
who are willing to be truthful, it makes it even harder because
1:08:52
now you realize everybody's been lying to you or you start to
1:08:56
detransition and then you just put on more eccentric
1:08:58
identities. And you never really get out of
1:09:00
that cycle of exploring your identity on the LGBT acronym
1:09:06
when you. Found out that your.
1:09:08
Breasts would not grow back like you were saying earlier.
1:09:11
And you were on the phone with the gender clinic and they said,
1:09:13
yeah, your breasts are not going to go back.
1:09:15
Did you? How did you feel when you
1:09:18
discovered that for the first time?
1:09:19
At that moment, I felt some relief.
1:09:21
Weirdly, because I felt like I can start this detransition and
1:09:26
do it slowly and not shock anybody and I can have time to
1:09:28
tell people but still be able to take hormones and so.
1:09:33
Initially. I felt a lot of relief, but then
1:09:37
further down the road into detransition, when I would have
1:09:40
been ready for my breasts to grow back at least a little bit,
1:09:44
they wouldn't. So at that point I felt a lot of
1:09:47
pain from it and I, I didn't have kids and I can't have
1:09:53
biological children because I, I had a hysterectomy.
1:09:57
So the, the whole breastfeeding thing, I do grieve that, but
1:10:00
even bigger, I grieve the hysterectomy because I, I can't
1:10:04
even, I can't get pregnant. I can't give birth to a child.
1:10:08
I still have children because I've always wanted to adopt my
1:10:10
entire life. I've just always wanted to or,
1:10:12
or be a foster mom or something. So, but but that doesn't replace
1:10:17
biological children. You, you don't just adopt to
1:10:19
replace a biological child you don't have and you don't have a
1:10:22
biological child to replace an adopted child.
1:10:25
If, if something had gone wrong. So, so it's, it's not, it's not
1:10:29
a one to one replacement. I I can celebrate adoption and
1:10:33
still grieve everything that I had gone through with the
1:10:35
hysterectomy and with not being able to, to have breasts and to
1:10:39
breastfeed and everything. So now I grieve it a lot more.
1:10:43
But at 1st, at first I did feel some relief because I felt that
1:10:47
I could begin detransitioning and take the hormones and not be
1:10:52
actively sinning, but also be able to breathe and start
1:10:55
rebuilding from there. Do you feel?
1:10:58
Like that grief that. You've experienced after
1:11:01
realizing, OK, a hysterectomy, I'm not going to be able to have
1:11:04
my my own biological children. Looking back on yourself when
1:11:08
you were getting the hysterectomy, would it have ever
1:11:11
crossed your mind at that time that you might regret this?
1:11:15
No, not even. It wouldn't have crossed my
1:11:17
mind, not even a little, because my mom did say, should you
1:11:21
freeze your eggs? Should you do this stuff?
1:11:23
And, and and I didn't want to freeze my eggs.
1:11:25
And and then you got to like, it's weird how you would have to
1:11:29
make a baby with the, with the eggs that aren't even in you and
1:11:31
all this kind of stuff. And so I didn't want to do any
1:11:34
of that stuff and my. Reaction to are.
1:11:39
You going to want to have kids in the future.
1:11:43
It was. Always, of course, I want.
1:11:45
To have kids, and I've always wanted to adopt children and
1:11:48
even if I had biological children, I still would want to
1:11:51
do that. That's just always been
1:11:52
something that I've wanted to do.
1:11:56
But I was thinking in those moments that it's a 1 to 1
1:11:59
replacement, that I can't have biological children, but I can
1:12:04
have adoptive children and it's exactly the same.
1:12:08
And it's not. The way that they need to be
1:12:09
loved is different. The way you care for them is
1:12:11
different and the relationships that they that they have are
1:12:14
different. But I wasn't thinking about it
1:12:17
like that. If people would have asked me,
1:12:21
do you think you should keep these organs or maybe you should
1:12:24
just stop the testosterone, see if your abdominal pain goes
1:12:26
away. My response to them was or would
1:12:29
have always been, not everybody asked me, but it would have
1:12:31
always been, men don't need these organs.
1:12:34
And I'm going to be a man after the surgery.
1:12:37
And so I don't need these organs.
1:12:39
But the truth is, like I was a woman going into the surgery and
1:12:43
I was a woman coming out of the surgery.
1:12:45
The surgery didn't change whether or not I was a man or a
1:12:49
woman. It didn't have any impact on
1:12:50
that when I went into the top. Surgery.
1:12:53
I was a woman with breasts and when I came out I was a woman
1:12:56
without breasts. And it was the same thing with
1:12:58
the hysterectomy. I I didn't gain anything.
1:13:01
I didn't get any closer to manhood or masculinity.
1:13:04
I just lost something. Sounds like nobody in your.
1:13:07
Life said that to you though. No, and I don't think anybody.
1:13:10
Knew to say it. Except for Matt Walsh.
1:13:15
I guess so. But do you think if someone had?
1:13:18
Said that to you would have just made you mad.
1:13:21
It probably would have. I I think.
1:13:26
Nobody did say it, so it's hard to say.
1:13:28
Exactly do you wish someone had said.
1:13:31
Something to you like I kind of do.
1:13:33
But if somebody did say that, and all I did was get angry at
1:13:36
them, would I regret yelling at a loved one more?
1:13:40
I don't know. I don't know.
1:13:42
Probably not. Probably not more than a
1:13:43
hysterectomy, but nobody asked me it.
1:13:47
It may have just made me angry, depending on when somebody said
1:13:51
it. Closer to the time of the
1:13:53
hysterectomy. I think I was a little bit
1:13:56
softer to to those sorts of things, those sorts of comments.
1:14:00
I didn't care so much. I didn't think too much about
1:14:02
gender and I really truly thought that the hysterectomy
1:14:06
was going to help the abdominal pain.
1:14:07
Nobody said stop the testosterone and maybe the pain
1:14:10
will go away. It's the testosterone that's
1:14:12
causing you the pain. Nobody said that.
1:14:14
Not a doctor. Nobody if they had.
1:14:18
What would my response be? I don't know could have been
1:14:20
take it anyway, could have been All right then, if you.
1:14:24
If you promise that the effects. Of testosterone won't fade too
1:14:27
quickly. I'll give it a try but I just
1:14:30
can't say for sure. Sounds like you're saying
1:14:32
there's. Nobody in your.
1:14:33
Life that was going to still call you Katie.
1:14:37
Use the wrong pronouns or the right depending how you're
1:14:39
looking at it, right. Or say don't do this.
1:14:42
This is not a good path. Don't do this.
1:14:45
You're enough. You're just right the way you
1:14:47
are. You don't need to do any of
1:14:48
this, but you're also seeing, on the one hand, even if someone
1:14:51
had said that, you don't know what impact it would have made,
1:14:53
right? When I started detransitioning,
1:14:55
when I felt that everything had just my my entire identity had
1:15:00
just fallen apart right before my eyes just crumbled to the
1:15:02
ground and there was nothing left.
1:15:05
I felt, I felt. Like I was in one of those.
1:15:09
Cartoons where the character's falling off the Cliff and he's
1:15:13
just reaching for anything he can grab, just a branch that's
1:15:16
sticking out. And that's, that's what I felt
1:15:18
like. I just felt like I was just
1:15:19
falling and it wouldn't stop. And I'm reaching out to grab
1:15:21
things and everything I'm grabbing is breaking.
1:15:24
But then the one branch I, I grabbed onto it and that one
1:15:28
branch was my baptism. So there was one day, I don't
1:15:32
even know how the thought came from came to me, but I thought,
1:15:35
hold on a second. I don't have to be this
1:15:37
depressed. I was I was driving to work on
1:15:39
the night shift, driving home and hoping every day that
1:15:43
somebody would crash into me and kill me.
1:15:45
I didn't want to be alive anymore.
1:15:46
I wasn't necessarily suicidal where it would have been
1:15:49
dangerous for me to go home and and be alone in the apartment or
1:15:52
anything like that. But it it was to the point where
1:15:56
I had, I just felt like I didn't want to be alive, but I lost a
1:16:01
friend to suicide before and so I didn't want my loved ones
1:16:05
asking the same questions that I was asking when we lost him.
1:16:09
Because I'm thinking, why didn't you text me?
1:16:10
Why didn't you call me? Like I would have woken up for
1:16:12
him. And I didn't want people
1:16:14
thinking that about me and, and going through all that.
1:16:18
But I just thought, well, maybe if a big truck comes and kill,
1:16:22
wasn't really thinking about the truck driver having to live with
1:16:25
that. But or maybe I drive my car off
1:16:27
a bridge by accident, right? Falsely with the wheel or
1:16:29
something. It's just this accident and
1:16:32
everybody gets a little bit of closure.
1:16:34
My, my parents will hear this devastating news, but they won't
1:16:36
think they didn't do enough. And that's where I was.
1:16:39
Every single night. And one night I'm just up, I'm
1:16:42
thinking I'm praying and it and I just it just popped in my
1:16:46
head. I'm baptized and I couldn't say
1:16:50
there, there was a block. I wasn't going to say I'm a son
1:16:52
of God, because I'm not and I couldn't.
1:16:55
Say I'm a daughter of God. But instead, I'm like, you know
1:16:57
what? I'm a baptized child of God.
1:17:00
I, I think, I think I'll be OK if everything else fails but my
1:17:05
baptism stays, which it does, then I should be good.
1:17:09
And, and I dugout went into my parents closet at their house
1:17:13
and I'm just digging through their old things.
1:17:15
I didn't remember where I was baptized or anything.
1:17:18
And I found my baptism certificate.
1:17:20
It was all folded up and everything and I framed it and I
1:17:22
hung it on the wall and I was like February 4th, 1996.
1:17:26
That's it. And and I don't always like
1:17:29
things I didn't used to. I should say I didn't always
1:17:32
like things hanging on my wall. So my walls were pretty buried
1:17:35
on my bookshelves. That's it.
1:17:36
Just my books. Didn't really need anything
1:17:38
else. But I had my baptism certificate
1:17:41
hung up there. Not the best interior designer,
1:17:44
so it didn't look good, but it was on the wall at least.
1:17:47
And so I would always remember that.
1:17:49
That's when things started to be more OK.
1:17:51
I went to a church that was close to my work, a Lutheran
1:17:54
Church and a conservative church.
1:17:58
I actually checked like, is this church that the Lutheran Church,
1:18:02
Missouri Synod, are they conservative enough?
1:18:04
Because I did not want to go to a church that would.
1:18:06
And if I said I feel like a man today, they would say, OK,
1:18:09
we'll, we'll call you a man today.
1:18:11
I wanted to walk in there and no matter what I said, somebody
1:18:14
would look at me and say, you're not a man.
1:18:16
Stop being ridiculous. And that's exactly what I found,
1:18:20
actually, when I went to meet with the pastor the first time.
1:18:23
I'd gone to the Sunday service a few times.
1:18:26
He. He.
1:18:26
Set me up to meet one. Of the parishioners who is
1:18:29
exactly like that like just very New England would would tell me
1:18:34
if I'm being ridiculous. And the first meeting with him,
1:18:38
I I called, I set up a meeting, said my name is Kaden because I
1:18:41
still don't have any women's clothes at this point and I'm
1:18:43
talking to him. He set aside just over an hour
1:18:48
to to talk to me. And toward the end, he said,
1:18:52
we've been talking for an hour. He said, is there anything else
1:18:55
you'd like to talk about? And I forget exactly how I said
1:18:58
it. He said he'll always remember
1:19:00
it. But I said something along the
1:19:01
lines of I'm, I'm transgender and I was born a woman,
1:19:07
something like that. And his response because our our
1:19:10
meetings coming to an end, he said, let's set up another
1:19:14
appointment. That's something to talk about.
1:19:18
So I did. I went.
1:19:19
Back for another. Appointment.
1:19:20
I went back for a few more, did the went through the catechism
1:19:23
together, talked about baptism, talked about the Lord's Supper,
1:19:25
made sure we're good, we're good, we're good.
1:19:28
And, and I could be a member of that church and it was so.
1:19:31
Funny talking to him. And he actually urged me, I
1:19:35
believe, at the second meeting that I had with him, because the
1:19:38
first one, he was probably like, oh, what just happened?
1:19:41
But then he urged me strongly, didn't force me, but urged me
1:19:45
strongly to use my birth name, Katie.
1:19:50
Don't go by Kaden, go by Katie. And I think we agreed that I
1:19:53
would just only do it at church to start.
1:19:57
And that's exactly what I did. The next Sunday morning I walked
1:20:00
into church. He had already introduced me to
1:20:02
people. I think it was close to Palm
1:20:04
Sunday. So I went to the breakfast for
1:20:05
the Palm Sunday and he introduced me to some.
1:20:09
People. And everybody when I walked in
1:20:11
the church, including him, said, hey, Katie.
1:20:14
I hated it. It was like fingernails on a
1:20:16
chalkboard because I hadn't gone by that name.
1:20:18
My birth name, my dead name is what you call it when you're
1:20:21
trans. At least it was.
1:20:24
It was like. Fingernails on a.
1:20:25
Chalkboard. There's no other way to describe
1:20:26
it. It was the worst feeling in the
1:20:28
world to hear my own name. So every single Sunday I'd pull
1:20:32
up to church and during Lent. On Wednesdays I went to the.
1:20:36
Midweek service and and I just had to brace myself because the
1:20:40
minute I open the doors to the to the narthex, everybody was
1:20:44
going to call me Katie. And I hated it.
1:20:46
And there were. Times that I sat in.
1:20:47
The parking lot, like, do I even really want to be here?
1:20:50
So what I started to do at that point was I went on Amazon, or
1:20:55
maybe it was not Walmart, it was Amazon because I wanted to buy
1:20:58
women's clothing, but I didn't want to walk through the women's
1:21:00
section because I still feel so uncomfortable.
1:21:02
I'm still struggling with gender dysphoria, with that extreme,
1:21:06
extreme discomfort. But I know my feelings are
1:21:10
wrong. The reality is not what's wrong
1:21:12
and I don't need to change it, but my feelings are wrong.
1:21:14
So I thought I need to buy women's clothing but I couldn't
1:21:18
bring myself to do it. So I just bought socks from the
1:21:21
women's section on on Amazon. Were they pink?
1:21:25
They were not pink. They just.
1:21:27
Had the W for women on them. Yeah, on the package.
1:21:30
It didn't even have it on the. Actual sock, but probably the
1:21:33
same socks at the same Chinese factory.
1:21:37
But so. But I but I knew in my head,
1:21:40
those are women's socks and it's going to tear me apart mentally.
1:21:43
No one else is going to know. So I won't feel like anybody
1:21:46
else is looking at me more than they should because I still kind
1:21:49
of looked masculine. My hair's starting to grow, but
1:21:51
it just looked like I hadn't gotten a haircut.
1:21:53
It, it just looked like I was a boy who hadn't gotten a haircut,
1:21:55
that's all. So I thought, I'll get these
1:21:57
socks. And people who can't tell aren't
1:22:00
going to look at me funny. And people who can't tell aren't
1:22:02
going to look at me funny because they're my socks and
1:22:04
they're hidden inside of my shoes.
1:22:05
You can't see them anyway, so I got them and they were just
1:22:08
plain white with the grey toe. They look like boys socks.
1:22:12
They didn't look like women's. And it did.
1:22:15
It tore me apart mentally to even wear them.
1:22:19
But a few weeks of the Hey Katie at church and then a few weeks
1:22:23
of having to get up and I got rid of my old socks.
1:22:26
The men's, I just got rid of them.
1:22:28
But if I have the option, I'm going to wear it.
1:22:30
So I'm not even going to give myself an option.
1:22:32
Put it in the trash and that was it.
1:22:35
So I started wearing the women's socks and it was, it was awful.
1:22:39
I think it was worse than being called Katie.
1:22:42
It was just, it was the worst thing.
1:22:44
I knew that I was wearing women's clothing and I hated
1:22:47
every second of it. And then a few weeks went by and
1:22:50
I just didn't hate it anymore. I'm like, OK, so my feelings
1:22:53
were wrong and now they're back in line with reality and it's
1:22:55
fine for me to wear these socks. So then.
1:22:58
I wanted to do. T-shirts of women's T-shirts,
1:23:02
but I just don't like women's cut T-shirts.
1:23:04
So sometimes maybe I will, but most of the time no.
1:23:07
So I just got the unisex. Anybody can wear them.
1:23:11
I just ordered a bunch of those plain color shirts and I would
1:23:15
just start wearing those instead.
1:23:17
And it wasn't men's, it also wasn't women's, but it was close
1:23:20
enough in between that I felt awkward enough to be able to
1:23:23
keep going. And I just kept doing that.
1:23:27
Little things here and there. I would buy joggers that looked
1:23:30
like men's joggers but were actually women's joggers.
1:23:33
And mentally it just tore me apart at at every turn.
1:23:37
But I'm thinking my feelings are wrong and I can't live like this
1:23:41
anymore. And eventually I got to a point
1:23:44
where I could wear all women's clothing.
1:23:47
Didn't look like women's clothing, but at least every
1:23:50
single thing I was wearing is women's.
1:23:52
My hair is starting to grow so I'm looking awkward enough.
1:23:54
So I'm like, well, now's the time to look awkward if I'm
1:23:57
going to look awkward. My pastor is I'm, I'm very close
1:24:01
with him and his whole family. I I think he saw.
1:24:06
Everything that was going. On and I was keeping him
1:24:08
updated, keeping him in the loop, telling him how things are
1:24:10
going. He invited me to speak at a New
1:24:13
England pastors conference just for the Lutheran Church, the
1:24:17
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. And that was the first time that
1:24:22
I shared my story. It wasn't a public event.
1:24:24
It's not recorded or anything like that.
1:24:26
It's just a very private, the pastors in New England and their
1:24:28
wives can go. And I stood up, never did any
1:24:32
public speaking. Honestly thought I wouldn't be
1:24:34
able to do it. Thought I would get up there and
1:24:36
just walk away from the podium. It's like I can't do it.
1:24:40
And I, I went up ready to tell my story.
1:24:44
I felt so nervous. I, I really did feel like I was
1:24:47
going to throw up or pass out. And then I just started talking
1:24:51
and I just started by introducing myself.
1:24:52
I had the bullet points of what I was going to say that way I
1:24:55
wouldn't lose track. And I practice in my head going
1:24:59
over my story. The minute I start talking, I
1:25:02
started talking. I prayed right before I went up
1:25:03
and everybody prayed right right before I went up And I said,
1:25:07
like, you got to hold me up because I'm going to pass out.
1:25:09
And I said that. I said that to God.
1:25:10
I was praying and that was my prayer and perfectly good prayer
1:25:15
and I felt like I was going to pass out.
1:25:17
Started talking. I was fine the whole way through
1:25:21
the entire speech that I get. I don't know how long I 1520
1:25:25
minutes. It wasn't a super long thing,
1:25:27
but first time ever really doing public speaking.
1:25:30
It's a good amount. And I think most of the pastors,
1:25:35
they came up to me after them and their wives crying, you
1:25:39
know, it really struck them they they stood in and applauded at
1:25:43
the end. They were just amazed by by the
1:25:46
story. The whole theme was how to
1:25:48
respond to transgenderism as a pastor.
1:25:50
And they said that I was the icing on the cake, that if the
1:25:55
whole conference had happened, it would have been good and they
1:25:57
would have learned a lot, but without me, it wouldn't have
1:26:00
been personal. And so they really appreciated
1:26:02
it. And from there, my pastor
1:26:04
connected me to other people, or I could then share my story with
1:26:08
them. What do you think, Katie, About
1:26:11
how? How should pastors and I want to
1:26:14
get into your advice to parents too, because we were talking
1:26:17
before the show and you had some really incredible things to say
1:26:20
about parents responding to children who have gender
1:26:24
dysphoria or identify as transgender.
1:26:26
What's your message to Let's start with the church.
1:26:29
That message you gave to the pastors about how they should
1:26:32
respond. They pastor should always.
1:26:35
I I like how my pastor respond. Is it You should always respond
1:26:39
initially with prayer because how could you grow up?
1:26:42
You want to open your conversations by praying and
1:26:45
just recalling on God's promises and letting the other person
1:26:48
hear that those promises are for them.
1:26:51
It's it's not just these promises are kind of floating
1:26:54
around and maybe some people get them.
1:26:55
Maybe some people don't like it is for you.
1:26:58
And when Christ gives you his name and your baptism, that
1:27:01
promise is for you. And, and so that's exactly how
1:27:06
how I've seen pastors go about it.
1:27:09
And I know certain denominations, there are
1:27:10
differences with baptism, but but that that's always something
1:27:14
that people can point to. And I think that's really
1:27:16
important. The other thing that that my
1:27:18
pastor did was it in my head, I was ranking my sin as the
1:27:25
absolute worst sin that a person could ever commit.
1:27:29
And he had to compare it to things that are are sins, but
1:27:35
that I would have seen as not so bad.
1:27:37
You can get away with that. I can't get away with this.
1:27:39
I'm too bad to be forgiven, but you're not so bad.
1:27:43
He compared it to other sexual sins.
1:27:45
He compared it to living together before marriage.
1:27:47
He compared it to divorce. He even compared it to to tiny
1:27:52
sins. And he said all of these things
1:27:55
are on the cross with Jesus. When you look at where's my sin,
1:27:58
Where's my sin? You can point to the cross and
1:28:00
you can say, well, there it is. It, it's on Christ, He has it,
1:28:05
He's taking it from you. And in doing that I was able to
1:28:08
see that. These things are just as bad.
1:28:13
All of these sins are sins and all of these things is what
1:28:16
brought Jesus to the cross and and he, I mean he.
1:28:21
Took all of that to the cross. For us and for for a pastor to
1:28:24
remind somebody of that is huge. Because I really did feel like
1:28:28
divorce can be up on the cross and all these other things can
1:28:32
be up on the cross. Slander can be up on the cross,
1:28:34
but transitioning, how could that be up there?
1:28:37
Look at all the destruction I've caused.
1:28:39
My pastor was able to say it's up there with all those other
1:28:42
things. Can't you see it?
1:28:44
Like it's, it's there. And so just recalling those
1:28:48
things is huge. And especially, and I mean, that
1:28:51
could probably go for for anybody who ends up in a
1:28:53
pastor's office and says my sin can't be forgiven.
1:28:56
And then he could tell you what it is.
1:29:00
You don't you don't have me saying it.
1:29:02
That's that's not something you did.
1:29:05
So that's always been the first thing with pastors also
1:29:08
responding with compassion and just understanding.
1:29:12
I think it takes a lot of listening because it's really
1:29:14
easy for a transgender person to walk into a pastor's office set.
1:29:18
I don't know if I should do this anymore.
1:29:20
And the pastors say you shouldn't out of a deep concern
1:29:23
to to rebuke them and say you shouldn't be doing this.
1:29:25
Why are you doing this to yourself?
1:29:26
Look at all this destruction. But to be able to listen to what
1:29:29
the person's actually feeling, if they're already feeling the
1:29:33
full weight of the law on them, do you have to double down?
1:29:37
I'm not a pastor, so I don't, I don't know how you would go
1:29:41
about it, But they're already feeling the full weight of the
1:29:43
law. So what they need?
1:29:45
Probably is is the. Gospel message like you
1:29:47
understand that what you've done is wrong.
1:29:50
Do you understand? That what you've.
1:29:52
Done is also forgiven, so. For pastors, I think that's.
1:29:56
A big one. And for to walk into a pastor's
1:30:00
office if you're transgender, Think about it.
1:30:02
Maybe everyone in your life is LGBT or LGBT approving.
1:30:06
No one's listening to why you want to transition, especially
1:30:09
if the reason you're wanting to transition brings you face to
1:30:13
face with a pastor. They certainly don't want to
1:30:16
hear about it. Chances are, unless you have a.
1:30:19
Good therapist who wants. To listen to you about the
1:30:21
Christian stuff in the transit on the de transitioning excuse
1:30:25
me, the only person you're having a.
1:30:27
Chance to talk. To is a pastor, so the pastor
1:30:30
should probably. Just.
1:30:31
Just take some time to listen and understand because maybe the
1:30:35
person's not been able to talk about it.
1:30:38
Wasn't the case for me. I I talked about it with my
1:30:40
friends, but I could definitely see that being the case for
1:30:42
other people. What about parents?
1:30:46
What would be your advice? To parents for how to handle it,
1:30:50
maybe start with an adult child. Adult child that says hey mom
1:30:52
dad I'm transitioning. Unfortunately, that's a common
1:30:55
one. A lot of parents have come to me
1:30:57
with with concerns of adult children who say I'm
1:31:00
transitioning and they're going further and further into it and
1:31:03
they're not even keeping the parents updated in these cases.
1:31:06
A lot of times the parents push back on it or are Christians and
1:31:09
the child just wants to cut them completely out of their life.
1:31:12
No parents, I don't want you. You're pushing me away and and
1:31:15
all this, but in reality, it's the child isolating himself.
1:31:20
What I would say to parents in a situation like that is you need
1:31:24
to be honest with your child when it comes down to do we use
1:31:27
the pronouns? Do we use the name just to keep
1:31:30
a relationship? You should always keep the door
1:31:34
open. Your child should always.
1:31:36
Any person who you love and care about should always be able to
1:31:40
come to you and and say, I'm struggling with this, but you
1:31:45
shouldn't lie to them using preferred pronouns.
1:31:48
When you know that your son is a man but he wants to be a woman,
1:31:52
calling him she instead of he would be lying to him if he
1:31:57
ever. Does come to his senses.
1:31:59
As parents, you'll want to be the ones who told him.
1:32:03
The truth that. When he's searching around for
1:32:05
who told me the truth because now I don't know what to do.
1:32:07
Like where I was, my whole world came crashing down.
1:32:11
I was looking for. Somebody who would tell me the
1:32:12
truth. And that's how I found
1:32:14
Christians. I had Christian neighbors who I
1:32:16
knew I could have gone to. So if parents could be that
1:32:19
person could be that their kid looks around and says, who's
1:32:21
been telling me the truth this whole time?
1:32:24
They'll go to their parents. If it's been the parents.
1:32:26
Hopefully that's what that's what we would pray for is that
1:32:28
they would go to the parents. And so in all things, always be
1:32:34
truthful, even when it hurts. It's almost like if, if I can
1:32:39
compare it to somebody with a heroin addiction.
1:32:43
If if your brother or your child, we'll say your child is
1:32:46
addicted to heroin, you don't want him living homeless on the
1:32:50
street and you invite him into. Your home, but if he's.
1:32:53
Stealing money from you and there's this toxic relationship.
1:32:57
You don't want him doing heroin. He could overdose, but you also
1:33:01
can you keep that in your? Home is is.
1:33:03
That is that a good spot for him or are you enabling this
1:33:05
behavior? And, and I think that's a pretty
1:33:08
fair analogy is if you're affirm, if you're affirming the
1:33:11
hormones, are you even passively enabling this certain behavior
1:33:16
that's ruining your child? It's tearing them apart
1:33:20
physically because they're having these surgeries and
1:33:23
they're losing pieces of themselves.
1:33:24
Pieces are being chopped off or stitched on like Frankenstein
1:33:29
and. It's tearing them apart
1:33:32
mentally. They don't.
1:33:33
Know who they are. They they had a very basic
1:33:35
level, don't know if they're a man or a woman and they don't
1:33:37
understand what it means to be a man or a woman.
1:33:41
So I would just for parents. Just to always be that that.
1:33:47
Pillar of Truth, especially for adult children because.
1:33:52
You think they can kind of come and go and there's a little bit
1:33:55
of freedom there. I think a lot of parents might
1:33:58
be. Afraid that if they dead name or
1:34:01
use the not preferred pronouns they tell the truth that they
1:34:06
will have the door slammed in their face.
1:34:08
They will. Most likely they will if
1:34:09
parents. Tell their kids the truth and it
1:34:12
enrages them. The door is going to slam the
1:34:15
the narrative on the trans side is that Christians hate them so
1:34:18
much and they kick them out of the family and that's what
1:34:21
they're always going to say. The reality is the the trans
1:34:24
identified person kicks himself out of the family because he he
1:34:29
hates the truth. It enrages him to hear the truth
1:34:33
when you try to share any piece of truth.
1:34:36
It it doesn't. Have to be as explicit as Jesus
1:34:40
loves you. It can just be, I don't think
1:34:42
you're a woman. If, if, if it's a man and you
1:34:44
say I don't think you're a woman.
1:34:46
That's the truth. That is how he's created.
1:34:50
It's going to enrage him most likely.
1:34:52
I hope it doesn't. But but but the fact of the
1:34:55
matter is it probably will. And he's going to slam that
1:34:58
door. But The thing is, he slammed the
1:35:00
door. The parents didn't.
1:35:02
Their side is still wide open. So if he wants to come back
1:35:06
through that door, he has the key for it.
1:35:08
And the parents never close that door.
1:35:10
They want him to come back. If he knocks, they're going to
1:35:12
open the door. Hey, how are you doing?
1:35:15
Is everything OK? Like are you, are you feeling
1:35:17
OK? Do you need a meal or something
1:35:19
like that? So if he's the one slamming the
1:35:22
door, I guess parents might, parents might still feel guilty
1:35:28
because then their child is just away from them and you don't
1:35:30
know what he's getting into. Maybe he is falling into
1:35:32
homelessness. They say that transgender
1:35:35
identified people experience homelessness more.
1:35:38
I've not looked into the statistics, but at least that's
1:35:40
what they say. And if we take that at face
1:35:43
value, then I can see why there's a deep concern for
1:35:45
parents who've who whose children have just slammed the
1:35:47
door on them. But telling.
1:35:51
The truth is not you slamming. The door as a parent and I think
1:35:55
that's what it comes down to. Do you have any advice for
1:35:58
grandparents? Because I know some of the
1:36:00
struggles for family members of, you know, adults or children who
1:36:05
are identifying as trans, the grandparents express it's
1:36:09
particularly painful for them. And this is often when the
1:36:12
child, the grandchild is usually a child, you know, they're a
1:36:15
minor and then their parents are supporting transition, but they
1:36:19
don't, they know that this isn't right, but they have to somehow
1:36:23
manage this family dynamic. I have heard stories like that.
1:36:26
It's. It's very common and it is very
1:36:28
heartbreaking. I talk to parents and
1:36:30
grandparents. Sometimes I will do a, a call or
1:36:34
a speaking event with just a few, maybe a lot of them or
1:36:37
sometimes one-on-one phone calls and Zoom calls, whatever,
1:36:40
whatever people want FaceTime. And I've heard stories from
1:36:44
grandparents. They might say it's my, you
1:36:48
know, son's child. And so the daughter-in-law is
1:36:51
pushing it and they're, they might still be married and
1:36:53
everything, but she doesn't want to overstep because it's the
1:36:57
child's own mother. If this is, if this is the
1:36:59
grandmother doesn't want to overstep the child's own mother,
1:37:02
the grandmother says, well, it's her daughter.
1:37:04
And so she's a little bit, you know, she's, she's more able to,
1:37:07
to push back on it. Sometimes there's a dynamic with
1:37:11
that with the son or the daughter who's pushing it on the
1:37:13
grandchild. Not always but but I have heard
1:37:15
that. And then the grandparents also
1:37:19
say. If I push back too much, I won't
1:37:22
see my grandchild at all. I won't even be able to be that
1:37:24
pillar of truth in their life because their parents will just
1:37:28
cut me completely off. I've looked into the grandparent
1:37:31
thing. I've listened to stories.
1:37:34
That one, really that one gets me.
1:37:36
That one stumps me. Because with the parents, maybe
1:37:40
it's easier to say your children know that they have a certain
1:37:43
relationship to you. Be that pillar of truth, be
1:37:46
honest with them. Keep the conversation open.
1:37:48
If you use a nickname, you use a nickname, but the pronouns is
1:37:51
really a spot that you shouldn't cave on.
1:37:54
Even I think names you shouldn't cave on.
1:37:56
There are certain names that are male names and certain names
1:37:59
that are female names. Sometimes they can be either or,
1:38:02
but but for the grandparent, you try to be that pillar of truth
1:38:07
and you're just shut out entirely.
1:38:10
I don't know if if you can. Have a relationship with the
1:38:13
grandchild. Keep being that pillar of truth,
1:38:16
knowing that possibly in the background your own child or or
1:38:21
daughter-in-law or son-in-law might be speaking poorly about
1:38:24
you and about how you're transphobic and trying to shape
1:38:28
the the grandchild's mind into thinking that you actually don't
1:38:31
love them or don't support them. The the.
1:38:35
Grandparents, I would say is. More case by case just because
1:38:38
of that. I've just heard it go so many
1:38:40
ways. But with the parents, it's
1:38:42
always case by case. There's always different people
1:38:44
struggling with different things.
1:38:45
But there is a more universal theme that I've noticed in
1:38:49
talking to parents with with adult children at least that
1:38:53
they just they. Want the door open?
1:38:56
They're. Keeping the door open and they
1:38:58
don't want the. Child to slam the door and
1:38:59
there's there's just this dynamic where how do I keep his
1:39:02
side open? How do I keep him from slamming
1:39:04
the door? And the answer is you can't with
1:39:06
the grandparents. You can try to be that you could
1:39:10
try to always tell the truth to the to the son or daughter or
1:39:13
son or daughter-in-law and not necessarily to the grandchild,
1:39:17
but. I don't know, I'm still looking
1:39:22
into the. Whole grandparent thing.
1:39:23
I'm trying to find answers. I've been watching YouTube
1:39:25
videos about grandparents. I've been searching on online
1:39:29
forums for adults for grandparent to grandparent.
1:39:32
A lot of it is so hard to find if you go on and you're looking
1:39:36
for advice because you have a transgender identified
1:39:39
grandchild, a lot of it's positive, it's affirming.
1:39:44
I do know that churches have started support groups.
1:39:48
They have little run by pastors. Usually, not always there's
1:39:52
support groups for for parents and grandparents who are going
1:39:55
through it and just don't know what to do.
1:39:57
I've I've done I've done Zoom calls with a couple of them.
1:40:00
So for any parents or grandparents.
1:40:04
Talk to your pastor. If you really truly do not know
1:40:07
where to turn and you're saying a pastor though, that is not.
1:40:10
Pro You don't want somebody's pro LGBT.
1:40:13
Because then they might teach you how to affirm it or they
1:40:16
might do cartwheels around certain points in the Bible
1:40:20
where they're saying, no, see, actually here you can see 1/3
1:40:23
and 1/4 and 1/5 gender and, and you're like, no, you, you don't
1:40:27
see that because that doesn't exist.
1:40:30
So, so you always want to go to a pastor who's teaching the
1:40:35
Bible rightly. He has to be actually teaching
1:40:37
the Bible, not trying to do cartwheels around the sacraments
1:40:42
or the OR the teachings or in, in all these sorts of things.
1:40:44
You have to go to a real steadfast pastor who's going to
1:40:47
tell you exactly how it is. How did your parents respond?
1:40:51
To your D transition, Katie. When you told them for the first
1:40:54
time that you are no longer you're no longer Kaden, you're
1:40:58
Katie, they were shocked. And because I told them I said
1:41:02
I'm not going to be transgender anymore.
1:41:04
And, and my mom said to me, she said I thought you were sure.
1:41:07
I thought you did your research. She was clearly very worried
1:41:11
about me because I had had a double mastectomy and a
1:41:13
hysterectomy. And she's thinking, what are you
1:41:15
going to do? But I could also see, I think a
1:41:20
little bit of guilt in my parents.
1:41:21
They felt guilty. So at every turn I reassured
1:41:25
them I was over 18. I was 18/19/20, 24 when I had
1:41:31
the hysterectomy. That it was nothing that, that
1:41:35
they did nothing that they could have changed because I don't
1:41:38
want them to feel guilty about, about those sorts of things.
1:41:41
I've, I've left it in the past, you know, what's forgiven is
1:41:44
forgiven and we can leave it at that.
1:41:46
If I were in their shoes that many years ago, I would have
1:41:50
done the same thing. I would have known what to do if
1:41:52
I'd had the same upbringing and the same value system and, you
1:41:58
know, the same ignorance of the issue and been bombarded with
1:42:02
the same media that they were bombarded with.
1:42:05
I would have done the same thing so.
1:42:09
I'm sure that they feel. Guilty for letting me go through
1:42:12
it. They've mentioned it a few
1:42:13
times, but I'm not, I'm not really been able to entertain it
1:42:17
one, because it tears me apart that they feel guilty about
1:42:21
that. I just, I just don't like seeing
1:42:22
my parents go through that. And also, what's that going to
1:42:26
do? Now it.
1:42:27
Happened. It's in the past.
1:42:29
It, it's terrible. I wish it hadn't happened, but
1:42:32
it did. So there's only one way to move
1:42:34
at this point and we can't go backwards.
1:42:36
And that's kind of my take on it.
1:42:38
So for my parents and for the people around me, I'm very much
1:42:43
positive about it. Like, look how far I've come
1:42:45
from that. Let's just leave it in the past.
1:42:48
It's over. There's going to come a day.
1:42:49
Christ is going to come back. We'll be resurrected in perfect
1:42:52
bodies and I won't have to worry about any of that stuff that's
1:42:55
happened. So it's just, let's just leave
1:42:58
it and and build from there and also learn from it.
1:43:01
We can't just pretend it never happened and not learn any
1:43:03
lessons from it. But that's been a big thing.
1:43:08
I think most people were kind of thinking, uh oh, we affirmed
1:43:11
this and I was just thinking, it's OK.
1:43:15
What about grandma? How did she?
1:43:16
Respond to your detransition. She is very happy that I.
1:43:19
Detransition very happy that I'm back to normal and she'll
1:43:23
actually watch this or listen to this interview.
1:43:26
She's been excited for it to come out it.
1:43:30
I talked to her a lot about it. I actually talked to her a bit
1:43:32
about what it's like to be a grandparent going through it
1:43:36
because when when people were telling me what, what's your
1:43:40
advice for grandparents? What's your advice?
1:43:41
And grandparents would be on the phone with me and I said, I'm
1:43:44
working on it. I'm really sorry.
1:43:46
Ask your pastor, like I'll be praying for you.
1:43:48
We can talk about all this stuff.
1:43:50
I don't know exactly which direction you should take this.
1:43:52
I just in in full transparency. I had to tell them I I don't
1:43:56
know. This is all new stuff.
1:43:58
I called my grandmother and I think that as a good
1:44:01
grandmother, she might still be protecting me from some of the
1:44:04
emotions that she felt going through the whole thing because.
1:44:08
She opened up about. Some stuff and it and it was sad
1:44:11
to hear what I put her through, but I think that there's other
1:44:14
stuff that she's not told me that and maybe she shouldn't.
1:44:18
Maybe that is something that she'll bear with her friends and
1:44:21
and not put on me. She did have the ladies praying
1:44:24
for you. Though she did and it it's you
1:44:27
mentioned baptism, the grace of your baptism.
1:44:29
You're baptized as a baby, it sounds like and you were in a
1:44:32
Catholic home, but then they weren't practicing later the
1:44:34
parents. So you had the grace of baptism
1:44:37
and that it held you back from wanting to die because you knew
1:44:40
like I'm a child of God. You're describing that so
1:44:42
incredible. And then you had these ladies
1:44:43
that you didn't even know who were praying for you the whole
1:44:46
time. And probably a lot more than.
1:44:48
That just in general, because I will pray a lot for transgender
1:44:53
identified people in general, some specific, you know, if I,
1:44:58
if I meet somebody or people come up to me and they say pray
1:45:01
for my, my sister or my brother, they'll often tell me a name.
1:45:04
So in my prayers, it's a very specific one.
1:45:07
And but sometimes I just pray in general for, for these, for
1:45:12
these big issues, transgenderism or any sort of confusion like
1:45:16
that, any sort of sexual confusion, abortion like these,
1:45:19
these big, big issues that people struggle with.
1:45:23
The people have gone through it, the families of people who have
1:45:25
gone through it. So I can't even imagine how many
1:45:29
people are praying for me. Maybe not so specifically, but
1:45:33
they were praying. Do you think prayer is what?
1:45:36
Made you look in the mirror that one day and say suddenly I
1:45:40
where's Katie? There was, there was prayer
1:45:42
there. Was the word of God that I was
1:45:44
hearing because I was listening to the To the Bible podcast.
1:45:48
And I think so, yeah, I would say it was, it was a lot of
1:45:52
prayer. It was a lot of hearing the
1:45:53
word. But what initially made me look
1:45:55
in the mirror, I think was a combination of hearing the word
1:45:57
of God and prayer. It's been how many years since
1:46:01
that? Moment that was in. 2021, it's
1:46:05
2025 now, so it's been about four years and you, you
1:46:07
expressed feeling so. Uncomfortable dressing and even
1:46:10
the women's socks. Are you comfortable now?
1:46:13
Oh yeah, I wear dresses and everything now.
1:46:15
Doesn't doesn't bother me one bit.
1:46:17
I actually prefer girlier things now because I knew my feelings
1:46:23
are dead wrong. Everything I'm feeling is wrong.
1:46:26
And and that was really hard because if everything my mind is
1:46:29
telling me is wrong, then I have to rely on other things to tell
1:46:33
me what's right. So I'm just looking at my pastor
1:46:36
and what does the Bible say about this?
1:46:38
And and I'm and I'm reading the Bible and I'm like, what am I
1:46:40
supposed to do in these situations?
1:46:42
Because I have no clue it, I know that what I'm feeling is
1:46:45
wrong, but how do I make it right?
1:46:48
So I, I did, I started wearing the women's clothing and then
1:46:51
now I'll go shopping and the first thing I go over to maybe
1:46:56
not, it depends on the store, but a lot of times it's the
1:47:00
dresses. You know, summer's coming.
1:47:02
I'm thinking, well, I think I need a new dress.
1:47:04
How long did that take to? Basically, you're retraining
1:47:08
your emotions through your thoughts and reality that you're
1:47:12
taking cues from. Reality, retraining your
1:47:14
thoughts, retraining your emotions, and just living in the
1:47:16
discomfort. Of all of it, it took.
1:47:21
It took a. It took a while.
1:47:23
I'm not sure if it took. Quite a year it may It may have
1:47:25
been under a year. So I probably bought the women's
1:47:28
socks in the summer. Late summer, I think of 2021.
1:47:36
By October of 2022 I was wearing dresses.
1:47:44
So how did that? Oh, maybe it was a.
1:47:46
Little over a year, it felt, well, the first time that I put
1:47:49
on a dress, it was awkward. That's the first time I actually
1:47:53
wore a dress in public was to talk at the was to speak at the
1:47:58
New England Pastors Conference. So that was the first time.
1:48:01
Now I'm doing public speaking, which I've never done, standing
1:48:04
in front of a group of people in a dress that I haven't worn one
1:48:07
of these since I was forced to for my first communion.
1:48:11
So it was the most awkward thing.
1:48:13
But after that, I felt kind of good about it.
1:48:16
I thought right after I did that, I would go back up to the
1:48:18
hotel room and change into pants.
1:48:20
And I didn't. I just kept the dress.
1:48:21
And I was like, you know what, I'm happy in this.
1:48:24
It was early afternoon. We were probably just about to
1:48:26
break for lunch. And then I decided, no, I'll
1:48:29
just keep wearing it through dinner.
1:48:31
I was still wearing it. We had pizza for dinner with all
1:48:33
the pastors and I was still wearing my, my dress wasn't the
1:48:36
nicest. It was just $15 from Amazon or
1:48:39
something like that, but it was enough to to get that comfort.
1:48:43
And then from there I was like, all right, I'm good to wear
1:48:46
skirts and dresses now. You I would actually opt for
1:48:49
skirts most of the time over dresses.
1:48:52
And but that it was weird having that preference that what do I
1:48:54
prefer skirt, skirts or dresses or before that wouldn't have
1:48:58
even been a question. I honestly never thought I could
1:49:01
get to that point. I thought I would have to stop
1:49:03
at the socks or the shirts or something.
1:49:06
You're married now. Yes, congratulations.
1:49:08
Thank. You.
1:49:10
Can you share how you met your husband and what that was like
1:49:12
getting married? Yes, so.
1:49:15
As as as. I said I'm.
1:49:17
In the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod.
1:49:18
And so I'm from Massachusetts, my husband's originally from
1:49:21
Iowa and I was travelling to Indiana to visit the, the, the
1:49:27
Lutheran Seminary over there. And I was looking at the
1:49:30
deaconess program to see if I, if I wanted to do that, which is
1:49:34
mercy work. So I, it's a lot of theological
1:49:37
training you would go through. And I, I did really desire to do
1:49:42
that kind of here and there. I went back and forth with it.
1:49:44
So we won't say I really desired it, but I desired it enough.
1:49:47
I thought about it enough to go to what they call a prayerfully
1:49:50
consider visit or you would, you'd consider it prayerfully,
1:49:53
maybe you'd say no, maybe it's yes.
1:49:56
While I was there, I was going to do a a talk at the seminary
1:50:01
on the campus for all of the students and faculty and their
1:50:04
families, anybody who wanted to go, And it was just going to be
1:50:07
telling my story, kind of like what I'm doing now.
1:50:10
The IT was the. Day before we had to leave, we
1:50:14
were. Staying for just about a week,
1:50:15
my pastor drove me, dragged me. Well, we'll say drove because he
1:50:20
thinks it sounds weird if it sounds like he kidnapped me,
1:50:22
because then that would not be a good look.
1:50:23
But he drove me from Massachusetts to Indiana just in
1:50:28
one day. Straight trip.
1:50:29
It was about 13 hours and he said we're going to go, you have
1:50:34
to at least go. And I was going to do the talk
1:50:36
while I was there. So it was Tuesday night was the
1:50:39
talk. I went to the Chapel service,
1:50:42
right? They do an evening prayer
1:50:43
service and I went right before I was going to do my talk.
1:50:45
I thought I could use an evening prayer service right now.
1:50:49
And I sat down in Chapel and I looked across the Chapel because
1:50:53
the pews for the evening prayer service, they're in the back at
1:50:57
the baptismal font and they face each other.
1:50:59
It's kind of its own little area.
1:51:01
And I'm looking across and I see a, a man in a bow tie.
1:51:06
And I, I don't know why it's not the, maybe it was the bow tie.
1:51:10
I don't know. We can credit the bow tie.
1:51:12
But my, my, my future husband was sitting there wearing a bow
1:51:15
tie looking kind of nerdy. And I thought, I think he's.
1:51:20
Going to be my husband. I didn't even know who.
1:51:22
He was didn't even know his name, but I'm looking at him and
1:51:24
I'm thinking that one, that's the one I'm going to marry.
1:51:27
And then I just thought, Katie, just focus on the evening prayer
1:51:31
service. You don't know if he's already
1:51:32
married or anything like that. But I was kind of trying to see
1:51:36
if you would look up and notice me during the service.
1:51:38
So I wasn't fully focused on what I was doing.
1:51:41
He didn't look up once. He was just fully focused on the
1:51:44
hymnal. He, he was doing what he was
1:51:46
supposed to be doing. I was looking at him.
1:51:48
So I wasn't doing quite the right thing.
1:51:50
After the the evening prayer service, we were leaving and he
1:51:55
was on the opposite side. So we were both leaving out of
1:51:57
the different interior doors of the Chapel, but we would both
1:52:01
leave in the same exterior doors.
1:52:03
So he came over to mention something to one of his friends,
1:52:07
but I was standing right there and he said, what are you doing
1:52:10
here? Or something like that?
1:52:11
Because he didn't recognize me. It was the most awkward way to
1:52:14
to greet himself. And I thought, I still, I, I
1:52:17
think I still like him. So I said I'm here to do the
1:52:20
fireside chat. And he introduced himself, said
1:52:22
my name is Josiah and all that. And he was so confused like, oh,
1:52:26
that's you. And he'll tell the story.
1:52:28
He will say he did a ring check to see if there is a ring
1:52:32
already on my finger or if he could try.
1:52:36
And so I went to the fireside chat and I invited him to go and
1:52:39
I said you should really go. Said he had to go to a dorm
1:52:42
meeting, so he might be late because he was a student there.
1:52:46
So he said he had to go to a dorm meeting, he might be late.
1:52:49
And then he ended up making it. But the whole time I started the
1:52:52
fireside chat. That's what they call it when
1:52:54
you do the talk. It's a fireside chat.
1:52:56
And I'm sitting there with my microphone.
1:52:57
I think I had a microphone I may not have.
1:52:59
And I'm and I'm talking to everybody in the room and I'm
1:53:02
looking around. The room was getting pretty,
1:53:03
pretty full. I'm looking around for the guy
1:53:05
in the bow tie and I just couldn't see him.
1:53:07
And then all of a sudden as I'm talking, I look over and I saw
1:53:10
him. I was like, there's the bow tie.
1:53:12
He better not leave before I can talk to him because now I'm
1:53:17
speaking to a group of people while I'm thinking about this.
1:53:20
And I'm thinking I got to get his number.
1:53:22
And if I don't, I got to get one of my friends here to give me
1:53:26
his number. So I finish up the fireside chat
1:53:30
and everybody likes to come up to me after, you know, ask me
1:53:34
for prayers or to tell me their own personal story.
1:53:37
And I, and I love that part of doing my events.
1:53:41
And so I was really happy to be doing that.
1:53:43
But in the back of my mind, and this is not to take anything
1:53:45
away from people who talk to me because I, I very much enjoy
1:53:48
that part. In the back of my mind, I'm, I'm
1:53:50
like, all right, he's still here.
1:53:51
And I kept checking over to make sure he was still here.
1:53:54
Come to find out, he was waiting around to remind me that I'm
1:53:59
baptized and all of God's promises are for me.
1:54:02
And he was waiting around to tell me that.
1:54:05
And so finally everybody's kind of clearing out.
1:54:09
It's getting late. He's still standing there just
1:54:11
waiting. He had so much homework to do,
1:54:13
but for some reason he just decided to wait.
1:54:16
And finally I walk over and he said, oh good.
1:54:19
I wanted to, I wanted to remind you that you are baptized.
1:54:22
And so we started talking from there and he actually wasn't
1:54:26
even going to go to the evening prayer service.
1:54:28
He hadn't gone for a while. They have Chapel services every
1:54:32
every day during the week and then they have a morning and an
1:54:34
evening prayer. And he he'd not been going to
1:54:37
all the evening prayer services. He'd kind of be here and there,
1:54:40
go to Chapel and all that, but. Just for some reason, he.
1:54:44
Decided he was going to go that one day.
1:54:46
Like good thing he did because I wouldn't have met him.
1:54:49
I was leaving at 4:00 AM the next morning to drive back to
1:54:51
Massachusetts. And so we started talking and I
1:54:56
just, no matter how hard I tried, I could not get him to
1:54:59
ask me for my phone numbers. We're in this big group of
1:55:02
people with mutual. Do you use an iPhone?
1:55:04
I do OK. But he likes trains.
1:55:09
I like airplanes. We're super into transportation.
1:55:12
So we're talking about, we will talk about, you know, the the
1:55:15
best way to construct roads and Hwy. interchanges.
1:55:18
We're we're into that kind of stuff.
1:55:20
So we're talking about naval ships and then we start talking
1:55:23
about coins because I have a coin collection and he quizzes
1:55:25
me. He asked me what year they
1:55:27
switched from from copper to zinc in the pennies and I and I
1:55:30
said it was 1982. And he goes correct.
1:55:32
I'm thinking, did he just quiz me?
1:55:34
So I had no. Idea why he was asking me.
1:55:37
Such weird questions. And then finally he talked about
1:55:40
a YouTube channel that talks a lot about naval ships throughout
1:55:44
history, and I thought, well could you send me that link?
1:55:46
And finally, he said I would need your phone.
1:55:50
Number. Yeah, you, you would need my
1:55:52
phone number for that. So I gave him my phone number.
1:55:56
He sent me the link about naval ships.
1:55:58
And my pastor told the story. I think he even said it in the
1:56:02
sermon at our wedding, that when we were driving there, there was
1:56:07
a lot of. I don't want to go, me being
1:56:09
stubborn, kind of giving him some practice for when his
1:56:13
daughters are teenagers. But then on the way home, he
1:56:17
knew that I was in love, but I still didn't, I still didn't
1:56:21
even tell him because I don't, I don't know why, but I was just
1:56:25
furiously texting and smiling is how he says it.
1:56:28
He's like, I totally, I knew the look on your face.
1:56:31
I knew that you were in love, but I didn't know who.
1:56:33
And I didn't know if you would ever even tell me.
1:56:35
And then of course, in October, he was doing our wedding and he,
1:56:40
he said he knew the day would come.
1:56:42
But your pastor. My pastor.
1:56:43
Man, he is. He's just a company like that.
1:56:46
His whole family. Too when I.
1:56:48
Was transitioning and detransitioning.
1:56:51
I really, truly thought that boys were better than.
1:56:55
Girls or that? Women were less than men, not
1:56:58
that we were different and and that was good and and not like
1:57:02
this feminist equality sort of thing, but actually that it was
1:57:06
better in that parents always wanted a boy more than a girl.
1:57:09
And I thought that about my parents, which wasn't true.
1:57:11
I even asked them and they said it's not true but when I met.
1:57:16
My my. Pastor and his family, he has
1:57:18
daughters, little ones too, and I would babysit them.
1:57:21
That was the first time that I ever fully really allowed myself
1:57:26
to to love a girl a a little girl and to just just love her
1:57:31
and be her babysitter and just show her exactly the kind of the
1:57:35
of love, of pure love that that a babysitter should.
1:57:39
And I'm taking care of her and I'm smiling and we're doing the
1:57:41
nighttime devotions, all of them, I should say, not just one
1:57:44
of them. And that was the first time and
1:57:47
and his family in addition to him.
1:57:50
You know, teaching me. In his office and everything.
1:57:52
But his family, even as young as those kids are, taught me that
1:57:57
it's good to be a woman, it's good to be a girl.
1:58:01
And I've learned so much from them.
1:58:02
So we're still very close, even though, even though I ended up
1:58:05
moving over to Indiana. That's so beautiful.
1:58:09
How long from meeting your husband to marriage it was?
1:58:14
It wasn't a full year, eight months maybe.
1:58:17
No, he got that number. He moved quick. 5 or 6 months.
1:58:21
Not 8 months. Yes, he did move.
1:58:24
Quick, they say. Seminarians do.
1:58:28
Is that is that a Lutheran? Tradition that you have to get
1:58:30
married before you become ordained or no no, just in
1:58:33
general he's like I'm going to lock in my ordination and lock
1:58:36
in my mayor there was also the fact of.
1:58:38
We knew that we were going to move somewhere, but we didn't
1:58:41
know where in May of the no it it is in July of this year,
1:58:47
sometime in the spring or summer.
1:58:48
We knew there was going to be a big move coming and we didn't
1:58:51
know where. So we were thinking we should
1:58:53
probably do it before that. Katie, I think your.
1:58:56
Story is so. Incredible and I'm sure people
1:58:58
listening are given not just a lot of food for thought, but I
1:59:02
think given encouragement, quite frankly, because there's so many
1:59:05
people who are affected by the transgender ideology and how
1:59:09
it's playing out in our culture today.
1:59:11
I'm curious if you have any just other thoughts on how we can
1:59:15
help people that are friends, family members or just people in
1:59:19
general who identify as LGBT who believe this is who I am.
1:59:24
Anybody who doesn't agree with this is a threat to me how we
1:59:26
can love those people better. You can always love them by.
1:59:30
Praying for them because obviously that's something that
1:59:33
that helped me also. Like I said before.
1:59:37
With the message to parents, this goes for friends, cousins,
1:59:40
brothers, sisters, everybody is just stay truthful and don't.
1:59:46
Don't lie to the person. They don't deserve to be lied
1:59:48
to. They still deserve to be
1:59:49
respected. They're still people and they're
1:59:51
still people who Jesus died for. So when when you're talking to
1:59:55
people who are just deeply confused now, now if they're
1:59:57
being hostile toward you, you can remove yourself from the
1:59:59
situation. It doesn't mean to just run in
2:00:01
and let yourself be abused non-stop by somebody who doesn't
2:00:05
want to hear what you have to say.
2:00:06
But if somebody asks you honestly, do you think I'm a man
2:00:11
or a woman? And you respond with the with
2:00:13
the truth of whether they're a man or a woman, there's nothing
2:00:17
wrong with. That that's just being.
2:00:19
Truthful. That's just showing them the
2:00:20
respect that that you would show to any person.
2:00:25
The other thing is when you're talking face to face with a
2:00:28
person, you generally don't use their third person pronouns
2:00:32
where you're saying he or she or unless you're trying to get
2:00:35
their attention, whoever's attention, you're not going to
2:00:39
use their name either. You you could just say you or
2:00:43
something like that. And so a conversation shouldn't
2:00:47
be extremely difficult. There are also some things that
2:00:52
if a if a trans identified person wants to open up and is
2:00:56
feeling like I want to talk about this and you want to ask
2:00:58
some some questions. Let's say some.
2:01:02
Challenging questions. There are questions you can ask.
2:01:06
Let me preface it by saying you have to ask neutrally.
2:01:09
You don't want to ever be attacking or acting like you're
2:01:12
too affirmative of falsehoods. And also you don't necessarily
2:01:18
want to ask so that you receive an immediate answer.
2:01:21
You'll see why I'm saying that. So some of the questions you can
2:01:23
ask, what do you desire about manhood or womanhood?
2:01:27
Like what are you looking to attain with this transition to
2:01:31
being a man or being a woman? And you can't actually
2:01:34
transition, but what? What is the person looking?
2:01:37
To. To attain or to acquire?
2:01:39
What duties of manhood or womanhood do they despise or do
2:01:45
they covet? Maybe you wouldn't say covet
2:01:48
because it sounds more negative because it is, but what are
2:01:51
these things that are driving them to transition?
2:01:54
The person may not have an answer in that moment.
2:01:57
He may have to go home and think about it and kind of ruminate on
2:02:00
that, and he may never give you the answer, but those are the
2:02:05
sorts of questions that have to pull you out of the ideology.
2:02:07
What do I despise or what do I desire about this lifestyle I'm
2:02:12
trying to achieve? That's something that I didn't.
2:02:15
Really think about. I kept saying I'm going to be a
2:02:17
man, I'm going to be a man. What is it about manhood that I
2:02:19
was desiring? I have no idea.
2:02:22
Just not being a woman. And what is it about womanhood
2:02:25
that I was despising? Like some of the.
2:02:28
Clothing I I. Still don't even know the answer
2:02:30
to that question that I would have had to put myself outside
2:02:34
of the ideology to answer. If somebody would have asked me
2:02:36
that, That question would have played over and over again in my
2:02:39
head. If you would have asked me, for
2:02:41
example, five years ago, those exact questions that would have
2:02:45
played in my head over and over and over again, I would have
2:02:49
never given you an answer. Mostly because I don't have one,
2:02:53
but also because I would have been embarrassed when I realized
2:02:56
there is no answer to this. Other things are what's the goal
2:02:59
of transitioning? Because a lot of times the goal
2:03:01
really is to be a man or a woman.
2:03:03
And that's that's not an attainable goal.
2:03:06
A person can't achieve changing their sex, changing to be a man
2:03:10
or a woman, other things along those lines.
2:03:16
What do you desire? What do you despise?
2:03:18
What would be the next step in transition?
2:03:21
Because what or or better yet, what?
2:03:24
What will your transition look like when it's complete?
2:03:26
What does a completed transition look like?
2:03:29
Because most of the time, there's always something else.
2:03:32
I had my double mastectomy. So if you would have said, what
2:03:35
does your completed transition look like?
2:03:36
I would have been, well, maybe double mastectomy, no, maybe
2:03:38
hysterectomy. It's known people taking women,
2:03:41
taking testosterone the way that I was, the way that transgender
2:03:44
identified people do, they end up with hysterectomy because of
2:03:47
stomach pain in part. Because of all of the
2:03:49
complications. That come along with it.
2:03:52
So it's double mastectomy, hysterectomy, maybe a bottom
2:03:55
surgery. Would you get a masculinization
2:03:57
procedure? Would you know, and if you're a
2:03:59
man transitioning to you're you're a transgender identified
2:04:03
man trying to be a woman. There's just would you have the
2:04:06
facial feminization? Would you have this and then
2:04:08
this and then this? Would you continue taking
2:04:09
hormones for the rest of your life?
2:04:11
What will you look like when this process is complete?
2:04:15
There's none of that because you're not looking to the end
2:04:17
goal. You're just chasing the next
2:04:19
high. When you have gender dysphoria,
2:04:21
you take the testosterone, you feel some euphoria.
2:04:24
You're chasing that high. You have the, you have the top
2:04:27
surgery, just like the girls in the YouTube videos who do the
2:04:30
chest reveals. They, they're brought to tears.
2:04:32
They're so happy about the the results of their chest finally
2:04:35
being flat. They're feeling euphoria in that
2:04:38
moment and they're chasing that. You get the hysterectomy and now
2:04:41
you know for certain, no matter if the testosterone's working or
2:04:45
not, your period won't come back.
2:04:48
You won't have to deal with that.
2:04:49
You won't have to deal with the awkwardness of maybe having to
2:04:51
go into a men's bathroom to, to change out your, your, your
2:04:55
hygiene products there. There's always.
2:04:58
That. Chasing the next high and then
2:05:01
when it's finally finished, is there just a plateau?
2:05:03
And you're not going to, you're not going to want that euphoria
2:05:06
anymore. You're just going to feel
2:05:07
perfectly content and perfectly normal because you've exhausted
2:05:11
every option. People don't always think about
2:05:13
that. And so those are the sorts of
2:05:15
questions that a person will ruminate on and that it will
2:05:18
bring them out of the ideology to think about it.
2:05:21
And it may not make a difference.
2:05:22
It may enrage them that you've even asked, but it kind of
2:05:25
plants those seeds in their head for you've not thought this out.
2:05:30
So, so those are things that you could do, but it's very
2:05:32
important to to keep a neutral tone and to show that you're
2:05:35
loving the person. You can't force the conversation
2:05:38
if if you're, if you're a transgender identified brother
2:05:41
comes and says, can we talk like, I have nobody to talk to
2:05:44
about this, but I really feel like I'm a woman.
2:05:46
And you can ask some of those questions.
2:05:47
Well, what is it about womanhood that that you're desiring and,
2:05:51
or, or about manhood that you're despising?
2:05:53
He may actually start thinking more deeply about the decisions
2:05:56
that he's making. Can't guarantee it, but those
2:05:58
are just some things that that a person could try.
2:06:01
Do you recommend letter writing? Katie especially if there's not
2:06:04
the opportunity for that in person conversation or they're
2:06:07
not even seeking it necessarily. I have grown to.
2:06:10
Really enjoy writing letters, especially since I moved away
2:06:12
from my friends and I've mailed them.
2:06:14
There's a lot that you can say in a letter and you don't even
2:06:17
realize it. When you sit down to write a
2:06:18
letter. Maybe you get a paragraph and
2:06:20
you're thinking this could just be a text.
2:06:22
Well, just keep thinking, just keep bringing.
2:06:23
You don't, you don't have to give it to them right in that
2:06:25
moment. There are so many other things
2:06:27
you can talk about how much love that you have for that person
2:06:31
and how no matter how much you love them, at the end of the
2:06:35
day, 'cause this is true for everybody.
2:06:37
No matter how much you love somebody, your own child, your
2:06:39
own brother, sister, best friend, and I've told my friends
2:06:42
this, at the end of the day, no matter how much I've loved them
2:06:45
or how much I've done for them, I feel like I've not loved them
2:06:47
enough or I've not loved them purely enough because I haven't.
2:06:52
That's that's the truth. And and Jesus is the only one
2:06:56
who who does. But for somebody to hear that,
2:06:59
for somebody to know that a person who's cared for them and
2:07:03
drops everything to be there for them still at the end of the day
2:07:07
has not loved them enough for a person.
2:07:11
To to hear that. And to understand that there is
2:07:14
something deeper than what we're feeling right now, in this
2:07:16
moment, that could mean a lot. That's beautiful.
2:07:20
And. That's.
2:07:21
That's the attempt to love like Jesus loves like God loved us.
2:07:25
First, Katie, you're amazing. Nice.
2:07:28
You're amazing. This was so fun too.
2:07:30
I mean, it's a heavy topic, but you're also very, very, very fun
2:07:34
to talk to. How can people follow you or you
2:07:37
know, hear more from you? Do you have a website?
2:07:40
How can they? I have I have an X account.
2:07:42
I don't have much, but I have an X account and it's at Katie
2:07:46
1080, so it's just Kat IE1080 and that's on X.
2:07:50
That's the that's kind of the only way right now unless you
2:07:54
have unless you're LCMS and you have a pastor who connects.
2:07:58
But I don't have a website or anything.
2:08:00
I've been working on some projects for just like writing
2:08:03
things for for churches to have on hand in case there are
2:08:06
questions, but I don't have much more online.
2:08:10
Thank you. Thank you for being willing to.
2:08:12
Share so much. It's amazing.
2:08:14
Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to
2:08:16
this episode of the Lila Rose Show.
2:08:18
Please share this episode with your friends, family, with
2:08:21
someone who might need to hear this message, who might need to
2:08:24
hear Katie's story. And a huge thank you to EWTN
2:08:27
Eternal Word Television Network, which is the largest religious
2:08:30
broadcaster in the world. You can get access.