Latest / Catholic Spirit Radio / Catholic Conversations #180: Mastering Family Dynamics with Dr. Ray Guarendi Clinical psychologist

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Catholic Conversations #180: Mastering Family Dynamics with Dr. Ray Guarendi Clinical psychologist · Catholic Spirit Radio

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  Catholic Conversations on Catholic Spirit Radio. Hello everyone and welcome
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  to Catholic Conversations on Catholic Spirit Radio.
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  I'm your host, Paul Garcia, and today I'm joined by Dr.
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  Ray Garendi, a Catholic clinical psychologist, father of 10 adopted children,
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  author of over 20 books, and host of The Doctor Is In, heard weekdays from noon
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  to one right here on Catholic Spirit Radio.
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  He also hosts EWTN-TV show Living Right with Dr. Ray.
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  With over 40 years of experience, Dr.
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  Ray has helped thousands of people strengthen their families and marriages with
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  practical advice, solid faith, and a healthy dose of humor.
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  Today, we're talking about his latest book, How to Get Along with Almost Everybody,
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  with a special focus on marriage and family life.
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  Dr. Ray, thank you so much for joining us today. It's a pleasure to have you.
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  Appreciate you having me on. Of course, of course.
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  So, tell us about your new book. What prompted you to write this?
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  Paul, I get questions more and more from people now that I never used to get before.
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  And here is the main one. Would you please tell me how to make somebody else be different?
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  I get that question all the time. I have a heck of a time helping you to be
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  different, much less removing at another person.
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  I thought to myself, okay, we don't have to get along all that well with the
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  neighbor lady six houses down.
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  She's a curmudgeon. We can drive by. We can wave. That's fine.
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  The mail carrier, I go get my mail. She says, how you doing?
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  I said, I'm doing okay. How about yourself? Oh, I'm doing fine.
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  That's it. That's the extent. But my mother or my father-in-law or my brother
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  or even my wife, these are people smack in the middle of our social circles.
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  And in many respects, we are obliged to get along with them.
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  We have to. You can't write off your mother.
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  You've got to go a long way. Despite what all the therapists tell you,
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  your mother's toxic. You need to separate from your mother.
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  Despite all that, we Christians, we have to be very, very slow to say,
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  I don't want you in my life.
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  So that book was written in essence to help you get along with the people in
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  your close circle that drive you nuts.
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  Hmm. Very interesting. And, you know, I heard you say something there that,
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  you know, you kind of jabbed at psychologists or not psychologists,
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  counselors, anyone who says, you know, you got to separate from your mother,
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  which you hear all the time.
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  In my little circle of people that I know, I've heard them say that their counselor
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  or their therapist said similar things, but that's not exactly the approach you take.
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  And I wouldn't believe that that would be the Catholic approach in general to
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  just leave your parents.
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  You got to honor your mother and father, no matter how difficult they may be, I would assume.
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  But tell us maybe some even practical steps or just talk a little more about
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  when you do have someone that you are obligated to have some kind of relationship
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  with, but they're just too darn difficult.
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  To do it easily on your own at this point?
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  Like, what would you do if you had a family member who, and what are the common
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  complaints about why someone can't get along with a family member?
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  There are three phrases, Paul, that now have infused our vocabulary.
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  They started out in the halls of academia, but they have drifted into our lexicon,
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  our everyday way of talking. working.
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  And I mentioned these at the very beginning of the book. One of them is toxic.
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  You know, your father-in-law is toxic. From everything you've said,
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  he's toxic. As in poisonous.
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  Now, that word is flung around way, way cavalierly.
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  Yes, he's probably difficult. He could be opinionated. He could be obnoxious. But toxic?
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  Oh, my, that's a strong word. And it implies I better get away from you because
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  you're poisoning. Okay, so that's one word.
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  Here's another one, and I know you've heard this many, many times.
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  This is a serious personality disorder.
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  However, we use this word to describe people who are self-centered.
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  Oh, yes. Oh, my cousin? Oh, yeah, he's a narcissist.
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  Oh, yeah, my ex-wife, she's a narcissist. it.
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  First of all, be careful about that word.
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  That is the serious personality problem. It means I can't relate to almost anybody.
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  I'm so completely self-absorbed and self-centered that I can't have empathy for you.
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  My way is the only way. And don't even try to relate to me.
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  We tend to use that word for somebody who is self-centered or difficult with us.
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  Three, here's another one. And Paul, I got in trouble for this.
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  When I said this on the radio with a caller probably about a month ago.
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  Somebody said, my mother is emotionally abusive.
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  And I said, are you saying that your mom can be difficult or she can be opinionated
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  or she can be snarky? Yes.
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  Well, you know, whether she's emotionally abusive or not is up to you.
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  Oh, oh, Paul, they didn't like that. And I said, Jeff, understand you have the
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  power to decide whether somebody is going to make your emotions get totally
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  out of control or in turmoil.
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  They can be nasty. There's no question about that. But the degree that affects you is up to you.
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  So those are three terms right off the bat. I talk about in the book that you
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  have to be really careful about using because if you use them,
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  that can convince you that these people are beyond reach.
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  My father is beyond reach. He's toxic. I have to set up boundaries.
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  He's emotionally abusive. He's a narcissist. If you do that,
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  what you've done is instead of saying, yeah, he's difficult,
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  he's a problem for me, he can be nasty and snarky, it's very different than
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  calling him a narcissist or emotionally abusive. You've got to watch your language.
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  We tend to think and act according to the language we use.
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  So that's one of the first things I talk about in the early pages of the book.
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  That was awesome. Just hearing you say those things.
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  First of all, you said a lot more than just three terms that I hear flung around
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  all the time, narcissist.
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  You wouldn't believe it. I can't go a day without hearing that somewhere from someone.
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  Those terms, you're spot on. You must really understand the culture today and
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  what people are saying, toxic, personality disorder, emotionally abusive.
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  That one made me laugh. I have heard so many times, and I've always thought
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  in the back of my head, you hear people, these, these young girls saying that
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  they're coming out of an abusive relationship. And I'm like,
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  Whoa, that's crazy. I can't believe it.
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  You know, an abusive relationship. They say, yeah, yeah, he was,
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  you know, ignoring me and stuff.
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  And like, wait a minute, I thought you were talking physical abuse.
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  Emotional abuse is absolutely thrown around in a lot of, a lot of people would
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  get mad at you saying what you said.
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  You know, if it, if, whether or not it's emotionally abuse and correct me if
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  I misunderstood, whether or not it's emotional abuse is more or less up to you
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  to decide. Is that correct? Is that what you said?
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  If a woman tells me that her husband is critical and scolding.
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  That's what he does. Seems to be his style. And she says, he's emotionally abusive.
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  Well, he is critical and he's scolding. Okay, we got that.
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  But the degree to which you absorb that and it makes you feel absolutely miserable
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  and wretched and put down, in large part is up to you.
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  Paul, you know as well as I do, you're on the air, I'm on the air.
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  I get emails that I'll tell you what.
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  One lady said, she said, I used to like you, but now the sound of your voice
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  makes me want to throw up. Okay.
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  I had another lady write me and said, I wish you'd roast in hell.
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  No way. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know what that was about, by the way?
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  Because I did a little bit on spanking. And I said, you know,
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  spanking is something that parents have to decide how to do it,
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  when to do it, what to do it.
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  There's no research support for spanking being awful in a loving home.
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  Well, she wrote me and she just said, you'll make you roast in hell in so many words.
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  Now, whether I let that get to me is up to me. I can't stop what they're going
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  to say. And that's another chapter in the book.
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  Attorneys will tell you anybody can sue anybody for any reason.
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  Well, there's a social counterpart to that.
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  Anybody can say anything about you, true or not, for any reason, and you can't stop them.
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  The only thing you can do is to decide how much weight to give it.
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  I only have one concern when somebody criticizes me. Is it true?
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  I have to do my best to judge whether it's true. Hopefully, God will open my
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  eyes, but my eyes aren't open that much on my own.
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  So given that, if it's not true, how much am I going to cling to it? I have to decide that.
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  Okay, let me give you another example.
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  You have moms listening to you. Maybe they've chosen to homeschool.
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  Maybe they've committed the only sexual, cultural sin left, which is having
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  more than 1.86 children in marriage.
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  So they get critiqued. They get analyzed. They get second-guessed by relatives,
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  by people they thought would understand.
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  And these remarks sometimes repeat themselves. These are not a one-and-done remark.
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  These are comments and critiques and remarks that happen somewhat regularly.
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  That mom has to decide how much are they going to absorb this each and every
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  time it happens, and how much are they going to recognize that's what she thinks,
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  that's what she says, and I cannot continue to upset myself over it because
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  I can't control what she says.
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  I can't control what she thinks. Now, some people would say, oh, come on, Dr. Ray.
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  You know, people hurt. People say things that hurt. I go, of course they do.
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  But the degree to which they hurt is ultimately up to us. Let me draw another example.
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  When somebody critiques you, when somebody puts you down, when somebody's opinionated,
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  when somebody's snarky, whatever it is that makes them unpleasant to be around.
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  Typically, it's a critique.
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  So your mother, who's commented on your parenting 294 times in the last year
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  and a half, question is this,
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  does number 294 upset you as much as number 10?
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  Now, most people will say, of course, and I'll ask why. They'll say,
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  well, the cumulative effect, it just keeps going.
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  I said, actually, it should upset you less. And the reason is you now have plenty of evidence.
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  That's what she's like.
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  She does that. It should lose credibility with each repeat, not gain pain.
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  And I think that's the critical part of not letting people get to you as much.
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  Wow. So it should upset you less because that's how she is.
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  And you understand that. And should that lead you to take her words with a grain
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  of salt or not even that, but just with proper understanding of what is the
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  saying I hear a lot? And I can't believe it. I'm drawing a blank.
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  Consider the source, you know, someone who's like that.
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  Why are you going to get upset? It'd be different if you heard those words from
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  someone you maybe admire more and trust, correct?
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  Or You know what? That kind of leads me to my next question.
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  What if someone is, when do you advise someone to cut off a relationship,
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  even with a mother-in-law, father-in-law, a dad, a sister?
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  Is there, when does it become appropriate?
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  I'll just leave it at that. When does it become appropriate to leave?
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  The vast majority of the time,
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  we either cut off a relationship or dramatically curtail contacts because the
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  person in our eyes is very difficult.
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  They're hard to get along with. They have qualities about their personality
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  that we just do not like or relate to.
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  They have not punched us in the face. They have threatened not our lives or our children.
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  So in other words, they're not doing anything that is definitely reason to sever the relationship.
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  These are not physically abusive people.
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  These are not people who threaten our well-being or the well-being of someone we love.
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  These are people that we just don't like.
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  I just don't like them.
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  Now, if it's a friend, you can say, well, you know what?
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  There's nothing in scripture that says I have to get along with a friend I can
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  simply go my separate way no ill will but I really don't want to spend a whole
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  lot of time with them anymore there's nothing wrong with that that's perfectly
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  appropriate but if it's your mom or your brother or your grandpa or,
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  or even your cousin. If these are people that are somewhat central to your life, your spouse.
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  Then you have to figure out ways to not let them get to you because they're
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  difficult, or they're opinionated, or they're snarky.
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  Most of the time when we want to sever a relationship, It's because,
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  you know what, you just bug me.
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  There's so much about you I don't like. I would be more at peace if you just
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  weren't around me, even though you are my mother.
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  We've got to be real careful about doing that. As Christians,
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  we have to have a broader tolerance level.
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  Now, here's the problem, Paul, and I had somebody say this in an interview.
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  What you're saying, Ben, is that we should be a doormat.
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  We should simply allow them to say and do whatever they want.
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  I said, I'm saying the exact opposite.
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  You are a doormat if you let them get to you. Now you're a doormat.
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  But if you don't get to me, then I'm not a doormat because you don't get to me.
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  You don't have power to upset me that much.
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  You could be critiquing. You could be scolding. Go ahead. You can even make
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  comments about what I say and how I stink on the air. Okay.
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  Go ahead. Can't stop you.
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  How much I absorb it is up to me. And that's the difference.
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  Most of the people, Paul, that we struggle to get along with are the closest to us.
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  By definition, we have contact with them.
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  Right, right, right, right. And I know so many people, this is a fantastic conversation.
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  I've already filled up my page with notes here.
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  We probably have time for another question before we go to the break.
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  I want to say, though, that it's refreshing hearing everything you're saying
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  because in the field of psychology, in therapy,
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  I generally think it seems like it's, how do I say this exactly? It's very fluffy.
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  It's very, your feelings are extremely important and they're correct.
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  How you feel is right. You know, cut that person out, blah, blah,
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  blah, things like that. They are abusive. You've been abused.
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  You've been traumatized. Things like that. That's all I hear.
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  But you, it's kind of like dad is home.
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  That's what it feels like when I hear you saying these things.
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  It's like, oh, he's completely right.
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  This is true. And it feels, how have I heard so much of the opposite or not
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  even the opposite, but just different things.
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  I really, really love what you're saying. And it made me think of one of my favorite people is Dr.
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  Jordan Peterson. And I'm sure a lot of your stuff overlaps and he's going to
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  Latin mass a lot right now. And we pray that he becomes Catholic.
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  One of his chapters in one of his books was don't say things that make you feel weak.
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  And especially when you say those things out loud, it seems like you're going
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  to start to really believe those things.
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  And when you said, you know, this person's toxic, personality disorder,
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  emotionally abusive, narcissist, that kind of to me, and I'm no psychologist,
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  makes me feel like that person saying those things about someone else is going
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  to kind of make themselves feel like a victim.
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  And I want to ask a little bit about that is, hey, we're not always the victim.
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  I can be a moron. I can be a jerk. I can say really stupid things.
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  But a lot of people, myself included, in the past especially,
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  have thought, you know, it's the other person. I'm not the problem.
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  I want to ask about how do we apologize effectively?
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  What errors do people have a lot of the time when they're trying to resolve
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  a conflict and things like that?
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  And you know what? But on that note, I thought I had a moment to ask you a question
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  here, but we got to go to break. We will be right back.
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  Listeners, how crazy is this? We've already gone through all this great content in this first segment.
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  We've got two more. We will be right back after these short messages.
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  Hello everyone and welcome back to part two of three of this episode of Catholic
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  Conversations. I'm your host, Paul Garcia, and today I am honored to be joined by Dr.
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  Ray Garendi, a Catholic clinical psychologist, father of 10 adopted children,
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  author of over 20 books, and the host of The Doctor Is In.
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  Heard weekdays right here on Catholic Spirit Radio from noon to one.
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  And after this conversation, if you're not already, which I'm sure you are,
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  you're going to really want to listen to his show because it is a true pleasure speaking with Dr.
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  Ray. He also hosts the EWTN TV show, Living Right with Dr. Ray.
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  Dr. Ray, it's been a great conversation thus far. We're talking mostly about
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  your new book, How to Get Along with Almost Everybody.
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  Could you please tell myself and listeners where they can get this book?
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  And also, maybe we want to follow you on social media and where we can do that.
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  EWTN catalog, Sophia Press, or if you want a signed copy, signed copy at a discount,
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  You go to my website, DrRay, D-R-R-A-Y.com.
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  I am on Instagram and we do a lot. My son manages it, do a lot of 45 to 60 second
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  tidbits on living a better life, more faith-filled life and Facebook also.
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  So I didn't want to be on that stuff, Paul, but I got pushed and I thought my wife told me.
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  She said, Ray, if you can put out stuff that will help people,
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  then you better do it because I'm not going to put on there.
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  Here's me eating a bologna sandwich.
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  Right. And okay, what is your the Facebook handle in the Instagram handle?
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  I don't know. Oh, that's... Let me see. I'm sure it's Dr.
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  Ray on Instagram. Yeah, I think it's Ray Grendi or Dr. Ray. I have no idea.
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  I don't run it. I just give him the material.
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  Okay, yeah. I'm looking it up right here. Hey, Paul, I am so old that if you
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  want to follow me on social media, you have to go to my chart.
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  You got John laughing in here, too. My wife is a nurse. She's going to love that.
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  That is hilarious. and it is at dr.raygarendy on Instagram.
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  That's at dr.raygarendy on Instagram.
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  You can probably just type in Ray Garendy and you will find him.
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  Yeah, lots of one minute bits. Your son is doing a great job managing that.
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  That is really, really good, but okay.
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  And Facebook does Dr. Ray Garendy as well.
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  EWTN catalog, SophiaPress, drray.com. That's where you can find this book.
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  And man, I'm going, it sounds like a fantastic book.
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  And I want to ask you here, we were just talking about so many things in the
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  first segment of this episode. We were talking about the three terms that people
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  hear all the time right now that have kind of polluted the psychology landscape.
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  We talked a little bit about, you know, even spanking a little bit and some
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  messages you've received and many, many other things.
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  I want to ask now about, you know, with me, I don't know about you, Dr.
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  Ray, but sometimes I'm the one that's making the mistakes. Sometimes I'm the
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  one that's getting on people's nerves and saying the wrong things and things like this.
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  What are some of the biggest mistakes that people make when they try resolving a conflict?
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  That is something that is universally experienced. We've all lost a friend,
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  maybe a sibling's walking away, not talking to us.
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  Maybe we're not getting along with our parents and we think they're a problem
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  and that might be true. But what are the biggest mistakes people make when they're
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  trying to resolve conflicts in these meaningful relationships?
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  In the book, I talk about personal apology percentage.
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  That is, how wrong in your eyes do you have to be before you will apologize?
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  For most people, it's 50 or more percent.
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  Now, keep in mind, we tend to be very kind in our judgment of ourselves.
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  But let's say that you can be accurate. I was 50% wrong, so I'm going to apologize.
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  For a Christian and for someone who wants to get along as best you can,
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  or at least to do damage control in a relationship, your personal apology percentage
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  should be any part of what you were wrong.
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  Let's say that my wife starts nagging me about something.
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  And I think she's badgering me. And this goes on for 18 minutes.
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  And I don't say anything. I'm trying to keep my cool.
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  Finally, I erupt. And I say something like, you know what?
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  Your mother raised a diva who wants what she wants when she wants it.
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  And anybody who stands in the way, you're going to blow by them because you're
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  so stinking self-centered. Okay.
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  Now, I could look at that and say, well, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was,
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  I got pushed in my limit. And I think in my judgment, I was 6% wrong.
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  She's 94 because she badgered me for 18 minutes. I said three sentences.
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  Am I going to apologize for my 6%?
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  I was wrong. I shouldn't have said that. even though I think she was much more
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  wrong, I'm going to apologize for me.
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  Now, the resistance to that, Paul, is people say, well, yeah,
• 23:31
  but then she'll think you're totally wrong and she's totally right. I can't control that.
• 23:35
  My obligation is to apologize for what I did, no matter what small percentage
• 23:41
  in my eyes I think it is. Okay, so that's one.
• 23:45
  Two, many, many parents come to me and tell me my children have written me off,
• 23:51
  either because of a therapist told them this or because they don't like the
• 23:55
  way they were raised or because I'm too Catholic or because they don't like my politics.
• 23:59
  So my 23-year-old hasn't talked to me for a year and a half.
• 24:04
  Go to them and say, if they still take your calls or if they take your texts,
• 24:10
  but a lot of times they don't, but you can try.
• 24:14
  Apologize without condition. You simply say, whatever I've said or done in the past, I'm sorry.
• 24:20
  Didn't mean to do it. Didn't mean to be offensive. And I'll commit to you.
• 24:24
  I'm not going to do it anymore.
• 24:26
  As much as I am able, I'm not going to do that. Now, that takes one heck of
• 24:30
  a lot of humility to do something like that.
• 24:31
  It truly does. But as long as you know God's got your back, you can do it,
• 24:36
  because you're supposed to do it.
• 24:38
  You're not admitting that you're the bad person in this relationship.
• 24:42
  You're just simply saying, for anything that I might have done, I want to apologize.
• 24:49
  Apologies are wonderful for relationships. They truly are.
• 24:53
  I had a lady call me once. I've been married 52 years.
• 24:58
  My husband has never apologized one
• 25:01
  time in 52 years well first
• 25:05
  of all i had a hard time believing that but i couldn't challenge her and i said
• 25:08
  does this still bother you of course ought to be terribly why well because he
• 25:14
  doesn't do it i said yeah but it's been 52 years wouldn't you expect by now
• 25:18
  he's not gonna why do you think he doesn't well he thinks he's superior he thinks he's never wrong.
• 25:24
  I go, no, I think it's the exact opposite.
• 25:29
  People who can't apologize struggle with insecurity because when they apologize,
• 25:37
  they think it means I'm a loser.
• 25:39
  I'm a bad person. I'm deficient. I'm inept.
• 25:43
  So if you look at someone who doesn't apologize and you recognize part of the
• 25:48
  reason they're not is probably because they're insecure.
• 25:53
  They feel inferior rather than superior. It softens you. You don't get quite as mad at them.
• 25:59
  When you're not mad at somebody, you can get along better with them.
• 26:03
  Man, that is so correct. My gosh, that's a mind-blowing moment right there.
• 26:08
  If someone can't apologize, and it's hilarious, Dr.
• 26:12
  Ray, how so many different people and their situations, I'm thinking of friends
• 26:17
  and family situations, loved ones, things that are just flying through my mind right now.
• 26:22
  If someone can't apologize, it is more than likely that they struggle with insecurity.
• 26:28
  If they apologize, they're admitting or they're saying, I'm a loser, I'm inept, inferior.
• 26:33
  That is so interesting. And it does soften the way you think about that individual.
• 26:37
  And I bet people laugh a lot when you're talking because of how accurate what you're saying is.
• 26:45
  I'm sure to me, it feels like you're talking about my little circle of people.
• 26:50
  It's really funny. Do you ever find that? Do people say like,
• 26:52
  oh, my gosh, you are nailing everything. Do people say that to you?
• 26:57
  You're looking in my window. Yes. You've got microphones in my house.
• 27:02
  And I'll say, yeah, set your drapes.
• 27:05
  That is great. Well, hey, let me ask you, you mentioned something.
• 27:09
  When you're talking about an apology and doing it well, I'm sorry for what I've done.
• 27:15
  Or whatever I've done, and I will do my best to not do it again.
• 27:20
  I'm paraphrasing poorly what you said. I think you said it better than I did.
• 27:25
  Well, I want to ask about that because I think that sometimes people might not
• 27:31
  think about their apology for long enough before giving it because I, you know, I'm a man.
• 27:36
  I have some of my guy friends come to me and say, you know, I tried apologizing
• 27:40
  to my wife or so-and-so, and it didn't work. And I ask how they apologize,
• 27:44
  and they often and say, you know, I'm sorry for whatever I did.
• 27:47
  And my thinking, I grew up with a few sisters, so maybe I had a little bit of
• 27:51
  feminine insight here, but it would bother some people to know that,
• 27:56
  or to hear that you didn't name what it is that you should be sorry for,
• 28:00
  so you still don't even know. You're saying, whatever it is, I'm sorry.
• 28:03
  Don't know what it is, haven't thought about it, but you know, I'm sorry.
• 28:06
  Do you think that it's a good idea to think about what it is that you should
• 28:10
  be sorry about and specifically apologize for that, or is that not necessary?
• 28:16
  Be specific where you can. When I was saying that to do damage control in an
• 28:22
  adult parent relationship,
• 28:24
  what I meant was there were a lot of things that apparently built up in the
• 28:29
  past that led to the severing of this relationship.
• 28:32
  And I don't remember all of them. I don't know what they all were.
• 28:36
  And I can't even gauge how the other person misinterpreted what I said or did.
• 28:40
  So I'm going to give a blanket apology for that. Now, wherever you could be
• 28:45
  specific, of course, but here's an interesting thing, Paul, and I'll tell this to folks.
• 28:52
  There's a guarantee that something you could do that will make it less likely
• 28:57
  that you'll get apologies, you'll get less and less of them,
• 29:02
  simply throw the apology back in the person's face.
• 29:07
  For example, if you are truly sorry, you change.
• 29:12
  Sorry doesn't make everything right. I think you're just saying sorry because you got caught.
• 29:18
  Now, those are all things that essentially say, your apology is illegitimate. Here's a parallel.
• 29:25
  I would imagine, I don't know, you sound relatively young, Paul,
• 29:28
  but my guess would be, if you go to confession, you've gone for many years, correct? That's right.
• 29:33
  All right. And if you use the same confessor for several years,
• 29:37
  he hears the same sentence.
• 29:39
  How would you like him to say, you know, Paul, I'm not going to give you absolution.
• 29:44
  Because if you were truly sorry, you'd stop doing these things.
• 29:48
  You come in here every time in confession and you say the same sins.
• 29:55
  You can't be sorry. You haven't changed. Now, we would be crushed to hear that,
• 30:02
  but yet we do it to others.
• 30:04
  Well, you know, sorry doesn't make everything right.
• 30:07
  If you were really sorry, you'd do something about it. I always tell people,
• 30:12
  accept the sorry on its face value, whether you believe it or whether you don't.
• 30:16
  Whether you think it's being said for ulterior motives to get out of trouble
• 30:20
  or to go back to normal, whatever you think that apology is for, you don't trust it.
• 30:27
  One thing you don't want to do is throw it back because if the future has a genuine apology.
• 30:35
  It's less likely to happen because the person is going to be thinking,
• 30:39
  ah, she won't accept it anyway. He won't accept it anyway. So why even say it?
• 30:42
  That's right. It goes right back to what you're saying about the mother-in-law in the first segment.
• 30:46
  You know, if they've said 294 times about something negative about your parenting
• 30:50
  style, you should understand that this is the way they are just the same.
• 30:53
  Maybe it's your spouse has had their apology thrown back in their face 294 times.
• 30:58
  They're just going to understand if they're wise. That is that,
• 31:01
  hey, this is just the way they are. You don't want to be just the way you are and be that way.
• 31:05
  So accept it at its face value. I think that's wonderful.
• 31:10
  And the analogy with the priest, what if they said no to your apology?
• 31:14
  I think that's great. And eventually, that individual, if they hear you not
• 31:18
  throw the apology back in their face, maybe it was a shallow apology,
• 31:21
  they're eventually going to understand that, hey, I can give a real good apology in the future.
• 31:26
  At least it makes it more likely that that's going to happen.
• 31:30
  And this is like a free counseling session for a lot of us, Dr. Ray.
• 31:35
  I think it's unbelievable and I have probably time for another question here
• 31:39
  before we go into our break.
• 31:41
  What if someone is not accepting our apology?
• 31:45
  Say we have a sister-in-law or a sister who's mad at us and maybe we think,
• 31:50
  oh, they're mad at us for this reason, they don't wanna talk to us for this
• 31:53
  reason and we're actually the victim, they're just being a dummy or something.
• 31:57
  Then what if we've apologized and they don't respond? They don't want that.
• 32:04
  They don't want it. They don't accept it. They don't say anything back, anything like that.
• 32:09
  How do you deal with someone that you give a sincere apology to and they don't
• 32:13
  respond how you want them to?
• 32:16
  And that is exactly why, Paul, that the word almost is in the title of the book,
• 32:23
  how to get along with almost everybody.
• 32:27
  Because in the end, whatever you do,
• 32:31
  however you react to them, however you do not let them get to you,
• 32:35
  if they don't want to have a relationship with you, if they don't want to get
• 32:41
  along with you, there's nothing you're going to do about it.
• 32:44
  I have had parents tell me, I've apologized to my daughter. She doesn't accept it.
• 32:49
  And she still is estranged. I said, well, then you have done what God has asked you to do.
• 32:55
  You can have a clean conscience in the sense that you did what our Lord would
• 33:03
  oblige you to do. It was not accepted that day.
• 33:07
  Is now out of your hands. And see, we can't accept that, Paul, because what happens is,
• 33:12
  psychology has trained people to think that if you just use the right words,
• 33:17
  with the right tone, with the right logic, with the right communication style,
• 33:23
  you could reach everybody.
• 33:25
  Nothing could be further from the truth.
• 33:28
  Almost. That is why almost is in the title. That was great.
• 33:32
  You can have a clean conscience if you have done all that you can and you kind
• 33:36
  of have to accept it. Not everyone's going to like you.
• 33:40
  Have you ever had that? Have you ever had someone just not like you, Dr. Ray?
• 33:44
  In one of my books, I talk about something called resistance rationales.
• 33:49
  And that is the reasons people don't do something that would be good for a relationship.
• 33:56
  These little things you can do for a relationship that would improve it.
• 33:59
  And then there's all kinds of resistances why they don't do it.
• 34:02
  My final chapter is called The Ultimate Resistance Rationale, which is I don't want to.
• 34:13
  I asked Father Mitch Pacwa, I said, Father Mitch, I wrote this book recently,
• 34:19
  How to Get Along with Almost Everybody.
• 34:22
  And I said, I don't know how it's going to sell. And he said,
• 34:26
  well, I think there's a lot of people out there who don't want to get along.
• 34:32
  With almost everybody. Their attitude is, if you create any kind of relational
• 34:37
  distress for me, it's just easier for you not to be in my life.
• 34:42
  If I can't personally relate to you, you may be a wonderful person,
• 34:49
  but I personally have all kinds of issues myself that make me difficult to get along with.
• 34:55
  And here's one of the definitions of a difficult person. I talked about this,
• 34:59
  I think, in chapter three.
• 35:00
  When you use the word difficult, a difficult person doesn't realize they're difficult.
• 35:08
  If they did, they wouldn't be as difficult.
• 35:11
  My father is so difficult, and he doesn't even see it. He doesn't even see his
• 35:15
  double standard. He doesn't even see what he does.
• 35:18
  Well, that's partly why he's so difficult.
• 35:22
  So when you use the word difficult, you recognize that your frustration is coming
• 35:25
  from the fact that they don't see their difficult. Why can't they see it?
• 35:31
  And that's what bothers us so much in trying to get along with them.
• 35:35
  Right. Absolutely. Listeners, stick around. We're going to a break.
• 35:39
  We're coming right back for one more segment here.
• 35:42
  Sadly, one more segment with Dr. Ray, author of this wonderful new book that
• 35:47
  I also, I've ordered it, Dr.
• 35:50
  Ray. We mentioned that you can pick it up on EWTN catalogs, Sophia Press, DrRay.com.
• 35:56
  Is it also available on Amazon?
• 35:59
  Yeah. And I got to tell you, it's a million seller, Paul. There's a million in my seller. Okay.
• 36:07
  There we go. And we'll be right back, everyone. We've got a lot more talking
• 36:11
  to do with Dr. Ray. How to get along with almost everyone.
• 36:14
  Sorry. How to get along with almost everybody. His new book.
• 36:17
  It is amazing. This conversation's been incredible.
• 36:21
  He's touching on universally felt and experienced circumstances and relationship issues.
• 36:26
  I'm sure so many of you are really enjoying this conversation.
• 36:29
  I know John and I here in the studio, we're both thinking hard.
• 36:32
  This is hitting us and what's making us think, and it's going to be so useful for so many people.
• 36:37
  Not only the book, but this conversation, but please pick up that book,
• 36:40
  How to Get Along with Almost Everybody. We will be right back after these words
• 36:45
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• 36:46
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• 37:19
  Hello, everyone, and welcome back to part three of three of this episode of
• 37:24
  Catholic Conversations on Catholic Spirit Radio. I'm your host,
• 37:27
  Paul Garcia, and I am honored to be joined by Dr.
• 37:29
  Ray Garendi, a Catholic clinical psychologist, father of 10 adopted children,
• 37:34
  author of over 20 books, and especially this new book is what we're talking
• 37:37
  about today, his book, How to Get Along with Almost Everybody.
• 37:42
  It's a great book. You can get it in a lot of places, EWTN catalog,
• 37:46
  Sophia Press, drray.com, and on Amazon.
• 37:49
  It's a light read, 160 pages, and everything is great in it.
• 37:55
  The chapters are great, and this conversation has been great.
• 37:58
  In addition to writing this book, of course, Dr.
• 38:00
  Ray is also the host of The Doctor is In.
• 38:04
  Heard weekdays on this station right here, Catholic Spirit Radio from noon to one.
• 38:09
  And he's also host of the EWTN TV show, Living Right with Dr. Ray.
• 38:15
  Dr. Ray, it's been a great conversation. We've got more to get to right here.
• 38:18
  I want to ask you something you mentioned during the break, reading people's motives.
• 38:23
  That's interesting. What can you tell us about reading people's motives?
• 38:28
  Somebody comes into my office, Paul, and I try to figure out what makes them
• 38:33
  tick, trying to understand what motives move them.
• 38:36
  Along about the fifth session of some kind of therapy, they will tell me something
• 38:43
  that will completely turn my understanding on its head.
• 38:48
  After five hours of talking with them rather intensely, I was wrong.
• 38:55
  I misinterpreted, misunderstood their motives.
• 38:58
  Now, if I as a therapist can do this, do you realize how easy it is on a day-to-day
• 39:05
  basis for all of us to misread somebody's motives on the spot?
• 39:11
  You can see behavior. You can hear words.
• 39:15
  But to look inside somebody's head to figure out exactly why they said what
• 39:20
  they said, why they did what they did, especially if we read the motives to
• 39:25
  be, they're doing that just to get personal with me.
• 39:30
  They're doing that just to make me feel bad. They're doing that just to hurt me.
• 39:34
  They're doing that because they don't care what I think. They're doing that
• 39:37
  because they don't care about me.
• 39:38
  If we read those motives that way, I guarantee you, you're going to get much more upset with them.
• 39:45
  The guy who doesn't call his wife when he's going to be late.
• 39:50
  And she reads that as, he doesn't care what I think. He doesn't care about me.
• 39:54
  He doesn't love me enough to do this one little simple thing that I asked him
• 39:58
  to do. This seems to be his habit. It's his pattern.
• 40:01
  Now, probably he's just kind of a doofus or he doesn't think about it.
• 40:07
  He doesn't mean it to say that I don't care what you think.
• 40:11
  He gets sidetracked, whatever it is. I'm not making excuses for him. you shouldn't do it.
• 40:16
  But the motive behind it is not, I don't care about you, wife,
• 40:21
  and I don't care what you want because I'm going to do what I want.
• 40:24
  Now, that's how she reads it.
• 40:26
  But what if that isn't it? What if you're just thoughtless kind of thing?
• 40:31
  So it's so easy to do. One time, my wife, now we had 10 kids under 12 at one point.
• 40:37
  And my wife said, she'd gone out with her mother and, no, I'm sorry,
• 40:41
  she'd gone out with a friend and she had her mother coming over to the house.
• 40:44
  To watch the kids. And I thought to myself, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
• 40:49
  Hey, I'm not incompetent here. I can watch the kids. Besides,
• 40:53
  my nine-year-old daughter's here. She can help me. She knows how to run the house.
• 40:56
  And I went upstairs and I said to my wife, honey, why'd you do that?
• 41:00
  You made me look bad in front of your mom.
• 41:02
  It's like I'm not competent enough to watch the kids. I mean,
• 41:06
  do they need fed? How often do they need fed?
• 41:08
  Give me a list of their names so I can know who I call.
• 41:11
  And she said, Ray, I did that because I knew you needed some free time to work on your book.
• 41:19
  Now, her motive was actually to help me out.
• 41:23
  I interpreted it as she made me look bad.
• 41:28
  See how far off I was? That reminds me of the old saying about the word assuming.
• 41:32
  To assume makes an A out of you and me. And that's really interesting. I love that.
• 41:39
  I love that. They will say, they've done studies, and they found that clinicians
• 41:45
  will make a diagnosis of a person within about the first four minutes of the interview.
• 41:53
  And once they make the diagnosis, They interpret everything after that differently.
• 42:01
  If it confirms my initial impression, I give it weight.
• 42:05
  If it counters my initial impression, I downplay it. We do this with people.
• 42:11
  If I have an impression of you that, Paul, you're just a difficult guy, okay?
• 42:15
  So when you do something, I'm much more prone to say, well, that's Paul.
• 42:21
  He's just, he's a difficult guy.
• 42:23
  That may not be it. What I at least need to do is to recognize I could be wrong.
• 42:31
  My inclination is to think I'm right. Of course, we're all like that.
• 42:34
  We all think we're going to be right.
• 42:36
  But as long as I recognize I could be misreading this.
• 42:41
  It will definitely slow down my upset toward another person.
• 42:47
  Right. I love that. I love that.
• 42:50
  And I love that you give stories from your own life and you're real about it.
• 42:55
  You don't act like you're got just everything down pat and you're absolutely
• 42:59
  perfect in your relationships and everything.
• 43:02
  And I know you have great relationships and you have a great wife and you have
• 43:06
  a lovely family. My son's parole officer says one of the nicest kids he has.
• 43:10
  So, you know, you feel good as a parent when you hear that.
• 43:13
  Your humor really makes your messages stick, too.
• 43:17
  I mean, it really helps a lot. I just love the style you have,
• 43:21
  the way you talk, your ability to articulate things that so many people feel in so little words.
• 43:27
  I think it was Leonardo da Vinci, maybe Einstein. I don't know who said it best.
• 43:32
  One of my favorite sayings in business and just in life.
• 43:35
  The task of genius is to make the complex simple.
• 43:39
  And that is exactly what you do. And I just love it.
• 43:42
  And I love what you said about, and if I had a dollar for the amount of times
• 43:46
  I've heard people say something along the lines of, they did that just to hurt me.
• 43:50
  They did that just to spite me.
• 43:53
  If I could summarize a lot of, based on what you're saying, a lot of the problems
• 43:59
  that lie at the core of our relationship issues, it seems like it's pride.
• 44:03
  Pride in thinking that this person's doing all these things just because they
• 44:06
  care so much about hurting me, me, me.
• 44:08
  I'm not gonna apologize because it'll make me feel this way or I don't need to.
• 44:14
  They're wrong, I'm right. It seems like pride,
• 44:18
  being that it is the deadliest of the seven deadly sins and perhaps the sin
• 44:23
  that cast the angels out of heaven in the first place, it seems like pride is
• 44:27
  really a big thing to try to wrestle with.
• 44:31
  Is that accurate at all in your eyes? You have introduced it well, Paul.
• 44:36
  There's a chapter in the book called Unoffendability.
• 44:39
  Now, that's not a word.
• 44:41
  However, it should be. Christians of all people.
• 44:46
  Should be the hardest to offend. We should be least likely to see offense.
• 44:53
  And the reason for this is exactly what you said.
• 44:56
  When we get offended, underneath it all, is us telling ourselves, I didn't deserve that.
• 45:03
  He shouldn't have said that about me.
• 45:06
  I don't do that to him. what what
• 45:09
  is he doing that is so wrong what
• 45:13
  we do is we say i don't deserve
• 45:16
  that and one of the analogies i
• 45:19
  use in the book is that we follow a master who never sinned against anybody
• 45:25
  and they killed him so do we think we're so special that you shouldn't say anything
• 45:34
  that I can be offended by?
• 45:36
  I get so many people who tell me, oh, what he said just offended me?
• 45:42
  Then why did it offend you? Well, because I don't do that. I don't do that to him.
• 45:47
  I don't deserve that. He shouldn't have said it.
• 45:50
  Yeah, all that may be true, but he did say it.
• 45:54
  And when you demand, demand, that's the word I'm going to use, Paul.
• 45:59
  Demand that people not say these things that can bother you or hurt you or upset
• 46:05
  you, then you are being prideful.
• 46:07
  Because you're simply saying, I don't deserve that. Who says you don't deserve
• 46:11
  it? People can say anything.
• 46:15
  Right. Right. People can say anything. I, yeah, it's so interesting.
• 46:21
  I have so many notes here, whether or not it offends you. Are you going to write
• 46:24
  your own book from my notes? Is that what you're going to do?
• 46:27
  Absolutely not. I cannot articulate anywhere near as well as you can.
• 46:31
  These concepts, these ideas, it is just so great hearing this.
• 46:35
  And it makes me think back to something you said earlier, whether or not it offends you.
• 46:40
  I think earlier you said whether or not it somethings
• 46:43
  you makes you feel something what it makes you feel that's up to you
• 46:46
  whether or not it offends you that's up to you and that
• 46:50
  is a harsh reality that a lot of people don't like but i'll
• 46:52
  tell you what i love hearing that because it gives me freedom it
• 46:56
  gives me freedom it's automatic if you
• 46:59
  if you get offended and upset
• 47:02
  by everything that people say and we're we're a
• 47:05
  hyper sensitive culture now i mean
• 47:08
  the code of the streets is you can't even look at somebody because that's
• 47:12
  offensive we are so hyper vigilant
• 47:16
  anybody saying or doing
• 47:19
  anything that in my mind is disrespectful to me christian of all people should
• 47:27
  be the hardest to offense to take offense right absolutely that doesn't mean
• 47:33
  we're doormats it simply means the stuff doesn't get to us.
• 47:37
  It's a very big difference Let me ask you this though So bullying,
• 47:42
  typically we think of That happening at the school age level Bullying at physical level
• 47:48
  verbal, but it does happen in various forms as adults to people.
• 47:53
  I can think of some people I've seen getting bullied, you know,
• 47:57
  maybe just another adult is kind of making jokes about another adult at their expense.
• 48:03
  That person's not liking it. They don't know what to do. And I've talked to
• 48:06
  these people like, Hey, so Dr. Ray, I've lifelong wrestler.
• 48:10
  I'm a shorter guy, but you know, I've wrestled. I like to work out.
• 48:15
  My response is, you know, you never lose it or anything.
• 48:18
  But I jokingly, if I have an in-law or something, a brother-in-law that's just
• 48:23
  being a little too much and he's poking a little fun, I might wrestle him down.
• 48:27
  And that's kind of how I do my thing. That's so stupid, though.
• 48:30
  I'm sure no psychologist would ever recommend that. Wait a minute. No, wait a minute.
• 48:35
  I had somebody say to me the other day, I'm taller than you. I said, yeah, you are.
• 48:40
  But gorillas are short. Yeah, that's right. That's right.
• 48:44
  Absolutely. No, but you know what? It does work. I think that I remember hearing
• 48:47
  Father Mike Schmitz say something about, you know, with men,
• 48:50
  there's kind of always this lingering under the surface threat of physical altercation.
• 48:56
  And that can kind of lead to a mutual respect sometimes.
• 49:00
  But in a world where that really doesn't happen, you can go to jail for that type of thing.
• 49:04
  How would you recommend adults responding to
• 49:08
  something like bullying is there i know
• 49:11
  what you say and it's up to you to be offended but if
• 49:15
  it's maybe hurting your reputation maybe you have a white collar job
• 49:18
  you're at the water cooler and someone's making you look bad in front of a lot
• 49:20
  of people what is your recommended response you know maybe it doesn't make you
• 49:26
  feel bad but it can make you look bad to others do you recommend wrestling to
• 49:31
  the ground do you recommend thinking of a nice burn to get them back with in
• 49:35
  a few days. What do you recommend doing?
• 49:38
  Well, if you're going to wrestle them to the ground, make sure you can take
• 49:40
  them. You know what I mean? I'm going to try to wrestle somebody around who's
• 49:43
  going to twist me to a pretzel.
• 49:46
  Several things. One of the objections people will say is, but...
• 49:50
  There are times when you need to speak up. I totally agree. Here's the trap.
• 49:56
  With people who are difficult, as we said earlier, when they repeat some of
• 50:01
  the same stuff, they make jokes about your height and they think they're so
• 50:05
  cute, Paul, they've done it now 26 times. Okay, it's getting old.
• 50:09
  If you speak up about it gently, kindly, what if nothing changes?
• 50:15
  There's your problem. What if the mother who makes the comments about your child
• 50:20
  rearing, and you've said it, Mom, Mom, why do you always do this, Mom?
• 50:24
  I'm going to raise the kids the way I see fit. And you can have your opinions,
• 50:28
  Mom, you raised your kids.
• 50:30
  And it doesn't change. There's where the problem comes in.
• 50:33
  That's when you're forced to kind of let this stuff go in one ear and out the other.
• 50:38
  Unless you keep re-challenging it, and I guarantee you that will destroy the relationship.
• 50:44
  So that's the first thing. You have to read the cues.
• 50:47
  Very, I don't want to say very few people, a minority of people,
• 50:51
  when you bring up something that they're doing that bothers you a lot,
• 50:57
  a minority will say, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
• 51:01
  I didn't realize I was doing that.
• 51:04
  Most will either get defensive, deny it, say, no, you misunderstood.
• 51:10
  I don't, I'm not like that.
• 51:12
  Now, that's just defense of the ego. That's just part of our fallen nature.
• 51:18
  And as someone who confronts another person, you have to recognize,
• 51:22
  okay, how many times am I going to confront them?
• 51:26
  When is it time to stop trying to clear the air because all I'm doing is flouting the air?
• 51:31
  See, that's the key. You got to read the cues. That's the first thing.
• 51:34
  Bullying is wrong. Of course it is. It's a terrible thing to do.
• 51:38
  However, however, most of us as adults don't get bullied by being wrestled to
• 51:45
  the ground. We get bullied by remarks.
• 51:47
  That's really what it is. It's words. It's remarks.
• 51:50
  So the question becomes, like we measure everything else, Paul,
• 51:54
  how much am I going to let those bullying remarks get to me?
• 51:57
  That person is doing this, again, out of their insecurity.
• 52:01
  I had a lady say to me at church just the other day, she said,
• 52:04
  well, yeah, Ray wears his hair high like that because when you're short like
• 52:07
  that you got to look like you're taller,
• 52:09
  now i could have said something like yeah and you know what else you wear dresses
• 52:14
  like that so you don't see how fat you are i didn't say that i'm not gonna say
• 52:18
  that okay that's wrong i just smiled and i thought to myself yeah that's a remark
• 52:23
  she's got to make okay so what.
• 52:26
  And that was it. I mean, why? Huh.
• 52:30
  Do you laugh? Do you find that laughing at yourself, even, you know,
• 52:33
  someone makes a joke, laughing at yourself, is that useful?
• 52:36
  Here's why. Here's why. Because the God of the universe says that I am infinitely valuable.
• 52:45
  So I don't need to have personal self-esteem.
• 52:49
  My self-esteem comes from God. If Ray Garendi thinks Ray Garendi is a great guy, what is that?
• 52:55
  Personally, it's objective. But I know that the God of the universe says regular
• 52:59
  Indy is infinitely valuable.
• 53:01
  That's good enough for me so that whatever you say, my self-esteem is not going
• 53:06
  to rise and fall by what you say.
• 53:09
  I know that God's got my back. It's so interesting because you have a mind that's strong.
• 53:15
  Like I think of those professional MMA fighters. They always say their mind
• 53:19
  is a steel box. It's so strong.
• 53:21
  Nothing anyone can say can get to them. And that's not true for most of them,
• 53:25
  but they say it. But I think that not only does that kind of protect your peace
• 53:32
  and give you peace, Dr. Ray, it also makes you more confident.
• 53:35
  And for all our young listeners, you know, or anyone that's worried about this
• 53:40
  type of thing, or maybe you're looking for someone, a potential future spouse, anything like that.
• 53:44
  It makes you more attractive to be confident in your own shoes.
• 53:47
  And it just seems like an upward spiral.
• 53:49
  You know, things don't bother you that much. You get more peace.
• 53:52
  You become more confident.
• 53:53
  You have better relationships. You have more peace. you're happier,
• 53:56
  you're more attractive, and so on and so forth.
• 53:58
  I think your advice is just bulletproof. I think it's so solid.
• 54:03
  Yeah, but you're leaving out one factor here, Paul.
• 54:07
  Age. I wasn't this way when I was 28. I wasn't this way when I was 48.
• 54:13
  This is something I've been working on for decades, you know?
• 54:18
  And if God lets me live another 20 years, I'm hoping I'll be a little more at
• 54:23
  peace in my own skin 20 years from now than I am now.
• 54:26
  It's a lifelong process. I always tell people, I don't know how much of it is
• 54:33
  God's grace working in me to help me be more at peace and not too easily upset,
• 54:39
  and how much of it is my testosterone's dying.
• 54:45
  Interesting. That's an interesting point. John's laughing. That's fascinating, actually.
• 54:50
  Huh. Well, that's not such a bad thing. A good thing to look forward to that,
• 54:53
  I guess, if that was true at all.
• 54:56
  That's interesting. But Dr. Ray, you have been a phenomenal guest.
• 55:00
  It has been a true pleasure talking with you. I've learned so much,
• 55:04
  and I know our listeners are going to absolutely love this episode of Catholic
• 55:07
  Conversations, but that's not the only place they can hear you.
• 55:09
  We have you every weekday from noon to one right here on Catholic Spirit Radio
• 55:13
  on your show, The Doctor Is In.
• 55:16
  Anyone who's in Catholic media at all knows who you are, but also he hosts, Dr.
• 55:21
  Ray hosts the EWTN TV show, Living Right with Dr.
• 55:25
  Ray. He's written over 20 books, but we're talking about his lovely new book
• 55:28
  that I highly recommend you pick up on EWTN's catalog, Sophia Press,
• 55:32
  DrRay.com, or even on Amazon.
• 55:34
  That book is how to get along with almost everybody.
• 55:39
  How to get along with almost everyone, everybody.
• 55:42
  Goodness, I keep saying it wrong. Highly recommend it.
• 55:45
  Dr. Ray, again, thank you so much for your time today and for being on Catholic Conversations.
• 55:51
  Paul, my pleasure, sir.
• 55:53
  And until next time, may God bless you all, to you listeners and to you, Dr.
• 55:58
  Ray, with patience, peace, unity, and all those good things,
• 56:02
  and with great relationships.
• 56:03
  We'll see you next weekend on Catholic Conversations. You've been listening
• 56:07
  to Catholic Conversations.
• 56:09
  Download our podcasts at catholicspiritradio.com.
• 56:14
  Music.