Latest / The Virtual Couch / Shame: The Self-Absorbed, Selfish, Uninvited Guest at Your Self-Esteem Party (and how to get them to leave!)

Transcript

Shame: The Self-Absorbed, Selfish, Uninvited Guest at Your Self-Esteem Party (and how to get them to leave!) · The Virtual Couch

0:24
So I was recently watching the Apple TV series, presumed innocent.
0:28
And I honestly had such an epiphany at the time when absolutely
0:32
no epiphanies are anticipated.
0:34
And , it was this realization that actually caused me to want to create
0:39
a podcast episode about this epiphany.
0:42
And that also played a pretty significant role in my therapy
0:45
practice over the last couple of weeks.
0:47
And I think we'll continue to do so moving forward.
0:50
I think you'll see why.
0:51
Let me set the stage and I promise I won't give any spoilers
0:53
if you haven't watched it.
0:54
If you're not familiar with the show, it was first a book that was released
0:58
in 1987 by author Scott Terrell and That was my junior year of high school, and I
1:05
have a memory of reading the paperback.
1:07
Now, I don't know if that was a memory of reading the paperback later in
1:10
life, or if there was trying to channel my 1987 listening to you choose the
1:15
Joshua tree, maybe on my walk, man, wearing some acid wash jeans and
1:20
having Reebok pumps waiting until the next episode of full house to drop.
1:25
Maybe even trying to see if anybody would.
1:27
Want to go see Dirty Dancing in the theater.
1:29
Not that I really want to see the dancing, of course.
1:31
Patrick Swayze is really cool.
1:33
Then the book was made into a movie in 1990 and that starred Harrison
1:36
Ford and I am certain That I saw that with my wife and that was the year
1:40
that we were married, I might add.
1:42
And if I were better with sound effects, I would cue the aww right about now.
1:47
But now there's an eight part series based on the book and I haven't finished
1:50
it yet, but I am really enjoying it.
1:53
The epiphany came though in episode four titled The Burden.
1:56
There's a particular scene, and there's a character named Raymond, and he's
2:00
played by actor Bill Camp, and he is this no nonsense, no BS attorney, and
2:05
he's attempting to help the accused, Rusty, played by Jake Gyllenhaal Rusty
2:10
has been accused of killing his affair partner, and so, I won't try to go into
2:15
my acting mode, but Raymond says, And talking about the crime, or talking about
2:21
finding out, I think about the affair.
2:23
Raymond was being pretty blunt with Rusty, saying how he and his wife were
2:26
shocked when they heard about the affair.
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And he assumed Rusty's wife was shocked as well.
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You could tell that Rusty was getting very visibly annoyed or frustrated.
2:36
There was some pretty obvious discomfort.
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I think one of the questions that's fascinated me over the past few months
2:42
is, What do we do with our discomfort?
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Do we self confront?
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Do we self reflect?
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Are we grounded enough in who we are that we can weather a storm of criticism?
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Or do we lash out?
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Or do we play small?
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Or do we gaslight?
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Rusty was no doubt going through all kinds of feelings, you know, feelings
2:57
of him getting caught, of having the affair, of betraying his wife,
3:00
possibly losing his career, even his own life if he gets convicted.
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And we don't even know at this point whether he did it or not.
3:06
And one of the fun things about becoming an old man now is I have
3:10
read the book and the movie and I don't remember how it ends as well.
3:14
So I'm just as excited.
3:16
But what did he do with his discomfort?
3:18
He comes back at Raymond and he was heated and Rusty said, how dare you
3:23
say that I don't take responsibility, that I don't feel shame and that
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I'm not consumed with guilt.
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And Raymond gave it a minute.
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There was a very dramatic pause, and then he said the following, epiphany included.
3:35
He said, you know, in 40 years, I've seen a lot of guilt and shame in this business.
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Shame is something that you put on yourself.
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It's self absorbed.
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It's self centered.
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Guilt is more about owning and feeling the pain that you cause others.
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I don't doubt that you feel shame in the scene.
3:52
I know that it would not have fit into the scene well, but I wish he happened to be
3:55
heading to karaoke and he liked bringing his own mic every time he found a place
3:59
to sing just so that he could have held it up and dropped it as he left the room.
4:04
And I'll read that again and we'll talk about it a little bit
4:06
later here in the podcast as well.
4:08
But he said, I've seen a lot of guilt and shame in this business.
4:10
Shame is something that you put on yourself.
4:12
It's self absorbed.
4:13
It's self centered.
4:14
Guilt is more about owning and feeling the pain that you cause others.
4:17
And he says, I don't doubt that you feel shame.
4:20
So today we're going to cover a lot of ground.
4:23
And we're going to talk a lot about Shane, and we're going to give
4:25
some tools that will put Shane maybe into perspective, talking
4:28
about the origin story and how it's.
4:31
Still this childhood defense mechanism, this wound that we have when we
4:35
default to shame, but for some reason think that shame is somehow going to
4:39
help us feel motivated to do better.
4:42
So I promise that this one is going to help you have a better.
4:45
Relationship with yourself with your own thoughts, with your emotions.
4:49
And in turn, I really believe that if you've ever struggled with that idea or
4:52
concept, which I hear often of needing to love oneself before you can truly
4:55
love others, what does that even mean?
4:57
Or why is it so hard to receive love?
4:58
Or if you continually play a track inside of your head that man, I'm just
5:02
so dumb, or I'm so lazy, or I'm not living the life that I wanted to live
5:06
or be the person that I want to be.
5:07
And even as I'm saying these things, What did that start to feel like if
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you're just hearing these things, but today I really think we're going to
5:14
start to make some sense of the origins of shame and why we continue to beat
5:17
ourselves up and feel like we need to be hard on ourselves or we won't change.
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Today's one of those days where I encourage you to embrace the phrase.
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I don't know what I don't know.
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And maybe even lean into a little bit of that discomfort, grab a notebook.
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And I'm being honest about this part, take some notes, jot them down
5:33
on your phone and send them to me.
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I want you to email me with all of your, yeah, butts.
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As in, if I share something today, if your first thought is, well,
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yeah, but what about if this happens?
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Or, yeah, but he doesn't understand this or yeah, but what if, fill in the blank
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because those yeah, butts are going to mean that you're onto something.
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But our adorable, beautiful, it's a stretch because it actually looks
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a little bit wrinkly and gross, but our pink squishy brains absolutely
5:55
think that they are doing you a favor by yeah butting anything new or
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uncertain because after all, the brain is truly a don't get killed device.
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Your brain.
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, bless its little pink, squishy heart.
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It's working off of this premise that it has a finite
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amount of electrical activity.
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So it needs to put everything it can into the habit center to habitualize
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things to say, I'll do it later to yeah, but things because it likes certainty.
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Oh, it wants certainty and it likes black or white and all or nothing.
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But that's not where we live.
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We we live more in this world of uncertainty and in the gray and
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we can learn what to do with that.
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Then we can really start to thrive and to grow.
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You know, we're just so afraid of discomfort that we just avoid anything
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uncomfortable or in relationships.
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We're so afraid that things will become contentious that we avoid
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all things , that have tension.
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So we're going to hit all these things today.
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With that said, Oh yeah.
6:47
Welcome to episode 425 of the virtual couch.
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I am your host, Tony Overbay.
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I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
6:52
I'm a certified mindful habit coach.
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I'm a writer, speaker, husband, father of four, and also creator of the path back.
6:59
And I have not been promoting this as of late but it is still an incredible
7:03
community of people that are trying to turn away from turning to unhealthy
7:08
coping mechanisms like pornography.
7:09
And it's such a strength based group.
7:11
And one of the tenants of it is there's no room for shame.
7:15
In my dojo.
7:16
So I think today is going to be really applicable.
7:18
So if you are interested in, and taking the path back course the weekly
7:22
group calls are probably one of the highlights of my week, honestly.
7:26
And if you're listening to this episode and you are interested, reach out to
7:29
me, I'll I'll get you a coupon code personally that will discount the rate
7:33
to get you in that course, because it's, it's a powerful, it really is.
7:37
Okay.
7:38
So I'm going to go back to that scene from presumed innocent, and I want to do
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a deep dive into the selfishness of shame.
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But before I do that, I really want to set the table a bit.
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And really let's set the table.
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We're talking fancy forks, maybe even a ring around the napkins, because I want
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to take a moment and say that if you're dealing with shame right now, it's okay.
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Shame is normal.
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I think we all go through periods where we feel a lot of shame
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and it can be really difficult.
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It's tough.
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It can make you feel alone.
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It can make you feel scared.
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It can make you feel like you're not good enough.
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And I want you to know that you are good enough.
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You are a human going through life for the very first time as you.
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And so, hang in here because we're going to really make sense
8:14
of where that shame comes from.
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And it goes back to your brain thinks it's doing you a solid by saying, Hey,
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this, the childhood defense mechanism that we have programmed in it just happens.
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So I'm guessing that it must be okay when in reality, as we become more mature,
8:29
it's time to grow into more mature ways to, to soothe to grow, to change.
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You're definitely not alone in feeling the way that you do and please reach out with
8:40
your questions or if there would love to know your thoughts of what comes up for
8:43
you today, because the goal of the podcast today is not to make anybody feel bad.
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I am not here to point fingers or judge, Instead, I want to shine
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a light on those negative thought patterns that we all fall into.
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Those habits of thinking that really can cause us to feel stuck
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and think what's wrong with me.
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Cause I, I am confident that to get better, we first need to understand
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why we do what we do, or what are these thoughts, what are these
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things that we're doing or thinking?
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It's like trying to fix a car.
9:07
It's good to know what's happening, what's causing that clunk to
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happen under the hood before you can really make it right.
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So today I'm just.
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Wanting to provide some insight, share some information, but the
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main hope is to give you hope.
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Sometimes all the time.
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So often we don't know what we don't know.
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That's why I think listening to podcasts like this and others that are dealing with
9:27
this topic are really helpful because I think it can be that little spark that
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starts to change and how we think or act.
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And I have noticed in my practice and probably in my own life, it can be a
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little bit easier to hear this kind of information from somebody who is not
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directly involved in, Your day to day when people you care about when they
9:42
try to help a lot of times, it's our natural, we have that psychological
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reactance, that instant negative reaction that being told what to do, even when
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it comes from somebody well meaning, especially if it's somebody that we
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care about, because we're going to worry about maybe disappointing them,
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or we don't want to be told what to do.
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Or we think that if I don't do this then they will leave me
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or they, they think less of me.
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So sometimes hearing it from a stranger, a therapist or on a podcast can really make
10:05
it easier to just really allow yourself to sit with the information you're taking in.
10:09
But I think again, if you are instantly rejecting it or yeah, butting it,
10:14
then that is, it's something there to take a look at because we are wired
10:17
to alleviate the discomfort and fall back into these habitual patterns.
10:21
Let's go back to that scene.
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So Rusty says, how dare you say that?
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I don't take responsibility that I don't feel shame that
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I'm not consumed with guilt.
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So that's how he's alleviating his discomfort at that moment.
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And The And I think, boy, the intensity that Jake Gyllenhaal showed in that
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scene, I really didn't think that there was going to be that it was
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going to hit this Raymond character.
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Raymond stayed very grounded, very differentiated, but you could tell
10:43
that that's how Rusty was used to alleviating his discomfort.
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If he gets big or bold, then other people most likely are going to shut
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down because they, there's not going to be anything productive here.
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That's when Raymond said in that grounded self confident way in these
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40 years, I've seen a lot of guilt and shame, shame, something you put
11:02
on yourself, self absorbed, self centered and guilt about owning and
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feeling the pain that you cause others.
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And that's where he said, I don't doubt that you feel shame.
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Is it normal to feel shame?
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Absolutely.
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Because it was a survival mechanism as a kid, it's a need seeking behavior.
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And I really think it gets messy as we grow older, as we
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mature and mature in many ways.
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We still revert back to some of our childlike defense mechanisms, or I
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look at it like shame programming
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. And I think that's where things get really complicated.
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We go there almost instantly and it can be like a visceral or gut reaction, but we
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don't like how we feel when we're there.
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But at that time I would also point out that our emotional baseline
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is so low that it's hard to access the tools to even get out of that
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hole when you're feeling so down.
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So the more that we can do to make sense of things or to practice our
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offense against shame before it hits the better because it'll hit so fast.
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So I think it really is about time that we how about we start working
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on getting rid of the shame.
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Because how is it selfish?
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Well, I believe it's tied to the origin story of shame because as kids we were
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taught born conditioned to expect that our needs were going to be met when expressed.
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And that is it's a beautiful part of creation where we have these
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little, just helpless infants.
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And so how are they going to survive?
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We have a new grandson living in our house right now, six weeks old.
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And I think of this often now when I'm looking at him of thinking,
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man, some species, they I was to say, pump out or spit out a kid,
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probably not the most sympathetic thing to say, but they have a baby.
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And if it's the baby horse that can walk and run away and I
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don't know, baby rhinoceroses look like they're ready to go.
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It's go time.
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I wouldn't try to fight one for sure, but our little babies can't do anything.
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Can't hold up their heads.
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They can't even really see very far.
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And so then.
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With our grandson, if he cries, we are on it immediately.
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Even the dogs literally rush over to see if they can help.
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If he smiles, we all gather around.
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If he sneezes, we video it literally because it's the most
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adorable thing in the world.
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He winds up that sneeze for quite a while beforehand.
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Uh, if he farts or burps, we cheer, we celebrate.
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And I am absolutely leaving a couple of obvious jokes on the table about the
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celebratory nature of bodily functions.
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And apparently that had to stop as we grew older.
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I missed that memo.
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But as we grew, we were still operating from a child's perspective.
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We were in fact, little adorable narcissists everything was about us.
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For many, actually it still is, but in this scenario, if we express the need or
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wanted something different for dinner, we throw a fit until we got our way.
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If we wanted cereal for dinner, our parent would say no.
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And we would think, hold on, slow down.
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I said, I want cereal, old man.
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Now get cracking.
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Like you've always done.
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Do I have to mess myself to get somebody to care, cause we had no idea, or and I
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go back to the examples of if you wanted a pony for your birthday and you live in
13:45
an apartment, that was what someone had actually shared with me at one point.
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And they said to this day, it was still hard for them, but they went right back
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to their visceral gut reaction that they felt like my parents didn't care about me.
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But then.
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He also knew that he grew up in an apartment in a, in an inner city.
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So there were no ponies that were going to fit in the apartment in the courtyard.
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But in his mind, he said, but I wanted one.
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So I didn't understand.
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Hopefully he understands now, go back to this cereal for dinner.
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We had no idea why our parents were going through it.
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We didn't understand how much.
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Sugar, those cereals contained how maybe a parent without dental insurance was
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reluctant to give into a cereal as a meal 24, seven, because of the potential
14:23
future dental bills, the child doesn't know or understand any of these things.
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So to the kid, all of a sudden their needs are just not being met period.
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End of story, their desires, their wishes, they are not the number one priority.
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So in that case, here comes the shame.
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They immediately go to, they meet my needs until they don't.
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And when they don't, I don't understand.
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So it must be me.
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I must be bad.
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I'm flawed.
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They no longer care about me.
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They don't love me.
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And in that scenario, shame enters and the kid shuts down and when all needs
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are need seeking behaviors, then at that point too, a lot of times the kid will
14:56
then shoot for things like perfectionism or look at me or I must perform or do
15:01
well, or they might then get angry.
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They might become defiant as ways to get seen because they're so afraid that
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if you don't see them then you will abandon them and they are just coming
15:12
off of feeling abandoned because you didn't do what they wanted you to do.
15:16
So what happens next?
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So when someone shuts down with shame and I, and this is where I like, let's
15:20
think about it from a, that little kid aspect that eventually if they are
15:25
just down on themselves and thinking they are just a horrible person.
15:28
Now it's up for those around them to suit them, to comfort them, to validate them.
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So while shame then eventually hides in secret and it causes people to isolate
15:37
and pull away, it also manifests in people not showing up as their best selves.
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And they know that, and that's what can be so frustrating.
15:42
And I think it's this just insidious dance between, I don't want to feel
15:47
like this and I want to be showing up better, but I don't know what to do.
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And at times that I need somebody to tell me it's going to be okay, but then
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I don't need, I don't want them to take on that role, but then maybe I do, maybe
15:58
I need them to, and it's just a lot of cognitive dissonance because that will
16:02
often require others to caretake and try to motivate them rather than them
16:07
learning how to develop self soothing, self motivation and self care skills.
16:11
I want to, again, with this table set that we're just trying to bring some awareness
16:15
to this so that we can head it off at the pass or when one comes out of a shame
16:19
spiral or a shame cycle, what do they do?
16:21
So let's just talk a little bit about why then shame can be self absorbed
16:25
because just looking at it in context in that moment, it really is about,
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it's all about me when we feel shame, we are thinking about ourselves.
16:31
We're beating ourselves up.
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We feel like we are horrible people, how bad we are, how awful we feel.
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We're not really thinking about others.
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And I'm not saying that we need to now go and try to get validation from others.
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We're not thinking even about a connection to others or about being
16:46
able to to work through emotions in concert with another human.
16:50
And then shame happens on the inside.
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It's a feeling that we have on the inside.
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It doesn't usually make us do anything to get outside of ourselves again
16:57
to maybe help others or fix problems that we might've caused that caused
17:01
us to feel shame makes us hide.
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We play small when we feel ashamed or when we feel shame, we often
17:08
want to hide from everybody.
17:09
And by definition, I would say it's a little selfish because we're just
17:11
focusing on nothing but our own feelings.
17:14
I need to work this out.
17:15
And honestly, shame
17:16
it doesn't fix things.
17:18
And I think that's one of , the big challenges, the misnomers, , the,
17:21
, falsehoods about shame is that going back to that childhood wounding
17:26
where we still feel like I have to show that I really feel bad.
17:29
I think about this one often when you're a kid and you're sick.
17:33
You have to sell your sickness.
17:34
To be able to stay home from school, , what was the movie?
17:37
Ferris Bueller, where does he put the thermometer , On the lamp bulb.
17:41
, I have to sell this.
17:42
I remember I had a friend in high school who would hit himself with , a brush and
17:47
then make it look like he had a rash.
17:49
And he would often develop these rashes when he really wanted to get out of class.
17:53
And he was never discovered for that.
17:55
But as adults.
17:56
Sometimes we still feel the same way.
17:58
We, think, okay, , if I'm going to be sick and I'm going to take a
18:00
day off from work, then I need to really show that I'm really sick.
18:03
But the reality is I can feel sick and I don't have to sell it.
18:07
I'm the one that knows it.
18:08
So I think that that shame still comes from this place of I have to
18:11
show other people as well that I really am taking this seriously.
18:15
And, here's where it's different than guilt.
18:17
. And this is part of that quote from the show, guilt makes us think about
18:22
how we've heard others are often makes us want to fix things and shame
18:26
makes us feel bad about ourselves.
18:27
And I think one of the challenges there is , I've never, never been sold on shame, but
18:31
for a while I was saying, okay, I don't know if I really like the idea of guilt
18:35
as well, but I did hear at one point, uh, someone talk about guilt of guilt is a
18:39
stop sign where it can bring awareness to something that we have done and allow us
18:44
to then do a little self confrontation.
18:46
So then guilt makes us think about how we've heard.
18:48
Others often makes us want to fix things where shame just makes
18:50
us feel bad about ourselves.
18:52
And a lot of times when people resort to shame, they punish themselves When shame
18:56
is prevalent, people often beat themselves up mentally, and that does keep them
19:01
focused on themselves instead of others.
19:03
, it's about who we are.
19:04
It's this negative image of ourselves . Shame can make us
19:07
think that we're bad people, not just that we did something bad.
19:10
And that keeps us stuck in this negative cycle.
19:13
Shame keeps us thinking about ourselves in a negative way.
19:15
, it doesn't help us heal.
19:16
That's why Raymond says.
19:18
That is self absorbed and self centered.
19:20
He thinks guilt's better because it makes us think about how maybe we've affected
19:24
others or the impact that we've had.
19:25
And then that is more likely to lead to change, so let's
19:28
talk more about our thoughts.
19:30
Because in the world of acceptance and commitment therapy, I still will
19:33
maintain what I love about it is I have no automatic negative thoughts.
19:37
I have no stinking thinking the thoughts I'm having are the thoughts I'm having
19:40
because I'm the only version of me that's ever walked the face of the earth.
19:43
And this is the first time that I'm, I'm operating as me in
19:47
the situation I'm in right now.
19:48
, so check that out.
19:49
This is what I'm thinking, or this is how I'm feeling.
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And when we are thinking and feeling what's wrong with me, I'm broken,
19:57
that's an automatic negative thought, I need to just change my thought, I
20:00
need to stop thinking this, I think those are more of the tools that have
20:04
led to some of the challenges that we have with anxiety, with depression.
20:09
Because we really do need to recognize that I am noticing a
20:12
thought I am feeling a feeling.
20:14
And so then I can step back and look at those in the context of
20:17
the moment and say, check that out.
20:19
, this is the first time I've been in this moment.
20:20
This is how I'm feeling.
20:21
This is what I'm thinking.
20:22
So now that's going to give me some clues on, on what this means
20:26
to me or what these feelings are trying to tell me or warn me about.
20:29
Maybe it's reminding me of something that I've, , felt or been
20:31
through when I was in childhood.
20:34
I really think the power Of our thoughts is real, but the power of thoughts in
20:39
essence, isn't again, trying to stop them or just automatically change them.
20:43
But I think the more that we take in the more that we have this access
20:47
to , these thoughts that we can then turn to or rely on when we're struggling
20:51
with Our negative view of ourself.
20:54
, I pulled some of the top quotes.
20:55
I think that maybe we've all heard things like, I think therefore I
20:58
am, , by Descartes or Henry Ford's, whether you think you can, or you
21:02
think you can't, you're right.
21:04
Those are good reminders of the profound impact that our
21:07
thoughts can have on our lives.
21:09
If I think then therefore I am.
21:12
But now let's take a little step further and let's talk about one of my favorite
21:15
books, Buddha's brain by Rick Hansen.
21:18
He introduces this concept of implicit memory.
21:21
And he says, much as your body is built from the food you eat, your mind is
21:23
built from the experiences that you have.
21:26
The flow of experience gradually sculpts your brain and that shapes your mind.
21:30
And some of the results are explicitly recalled.
21:32
Like this is what I did last summer.
21:33
This is how I felt when I was in love, but he says, most of the shaping of
21:37
your mind remains forever unconscious.
21:39
And this is called implicit memory.
21:41
I think this is one of the most important concepts to understand because it
21:44
includes your expectations, your models of relationships, your emotional tendencies,
21:47
and your general outlook on life.
21:49
Your implicit memory.
21:50
, establishes the interior landscape of your mind or what it feels like to be
21:54
you, and it's based off of the slow accumulating residue of lived experience.
21:58
Now, when I went searching for information to help me make sense of
22:02
things that led me to this implicit memory concept, it was because I
22:06
just happened upon my audible memory.
22:09
Audio book library and saw that there were at that time,
22:12
almost 500 books in my library.
22:15
That is not a humble brag.
22:16
That is me saying, and I don't think I could remember the plot or, or what was
22:21
going on and, and hardly any of them.
22:22
So I started thinking, okay, has this been a waste of time
22:25
listening to these audio books?
22:26
I know it hasn't because I pull a lot of information from the books
22:29
that I listened to both fiction and nonfiction that then helped me understand
22:34
how I show up in my life better.
22:36
But I also, Thought about this concept of implicit memory and the fact
22:40
that every one of the minutes, the seconds, the, that I'm listening to
22:45
one of these audio books, I have this potential to take in new information.
22:48
, I'm interacting with these characters, this dialogue in my mind
22:51
and creating, , scenes scenarios.
22:54
I'm having thought thoughts around , why does this character do this?
22:57
Or I'm anticipating things or wondering about the author or I'm taking a new
23:00
data, if it's things that might help me with my practice, what I'm not doing.
23:05
And those situations is spending time creating an interior landscape
23:08
of my mind that is beating myself up about things, ruminating,
23:11
wondering what's wrong with me.
23:12
, not even from a place of distraction, but from a place , of doing
23:16
something more productive than ruminating or beating myself up.
23:20
But then here is the challenge, though, that Rick Hansen says about the brain.
23:23
He says, here's the problem.
23:25
Your brain preferentially scans for, registers, stores, recalls, and
23:29
reacts to unpleasant experiences.
23:31
, It's like Velcro for the negative experiences and
23:33
Teflon for the positive ones.
23:35
So it's going to hang on to those negative experiences and this, the positive ones
23:39
are just going to slide right on through.
23:40
, so consequently he says, even when positive experiences outnumber negative
23:44
ones, the pile of negative implicit memories partially grows faster.
23:49
And then the background feeling of what it feels like to be, you
23:51
can become undeservedly glum and pessimistic, but here's the key.
23:55
The remedy is not to suppress your negative experiences when they happen.
23:58
They happen.
23:59
That's that.
23:59
Accept them.
24:00
That happened.
24:01
Give myself grace, benefit of the doubt.
24:03
This is the first time I've been me in this situation.
24:06
It's to foster these positive experiences and in particular, take them in so
24:11
they become a permanent part of you.
24:13
And , that section of the book, I think it is so brilliantly highlights
24:17
how our experiences, even negative ones, and especially the negative
24:21
ones shape our internal landscape.
24:23
Or implicit memory, , our brains are wired to hold on to negative experiences
24:27
like Velcro and the positive ones slip away like Teflon and this unconscious
24:32
accumulation of just the things that we're thinking and feeling and experiencing.
24:37
That's what he calls that interior landscape of your mind
24:40
or what it feels like to be you.
24:42
So then maybe it leads one to start thinking, okay, so we're doomed to
24:46
negativity, but that is not the message.
24:49
This is where we bring in some wisdom from acceptance and commitment therapy or act
24:53
act teaches us a very crucial principle.
24:56
Our thoughts are simply thoughts.
24:58
They're not commands that we have to obey, nor are they
25:00
absolute truths about reality.
25:02
We all have a lot of different thoughts and feelings that are
25:05
happening at any given moment.
25:06
So why is it that we attach such meaning to some and let others go right by?
25:11
What if we attach meanings to the, I'm so lazy, , what's wrong with me?
25:15
But then the one that goes by that says, but you do accomplish things
25:18
and you are making some progress.
25:20
Why can't we attach or connect with those thoughts?
25:23
, and notice those others, it's one of the best exercises on this is imagining
25:27
your mind as a sky and your thoughts are these clouds that are passing through.
25:30
Sometimes they are dark and stormy, and those might
25:33
represent the negative thoughts.
25:34
Others are light and fluffy.
25:36
Maybe they represent positive thoughts.
25:38
And the goal is to just become observers of those thought clouds rather than
25:42
getting hooked on everyone that passes by every dark cloud that passes by.
25:46
Oh, great.
25:46
Here we go.
25:46
It's going to, it's going to storm.
25:48
Versus the, Oh, check that out.
25:49
It's a storm cloud.
25:50
I'm noticing rain, even because that ability to step back
25:54
and observe our thoughts.
25:55
That's the game changer because that allows us to recognize the
25:57
thought is just that a thought.
25:58
It doesn't define us.
25:59
We don't have to act on it.
26:00
And it's especially powerful when it comes to those sticky negative thoughts
26:03
that are brains tend to amplify and make them even larger or louder.
26:07
So how do we start to change the internal monologue?
26:10
It really does start with awareness.
26:12
Because if you start recognizing thoughts as simply thoughts, then
26:14
we start to create space between ourselves and all that internal
26:18
chatter that we have in our mind.
26:20
And that space that's where the choice comes to choose
26:22
which thoughts to engage with.
26:24
I don't necessarily have this opportunity to always choose to not think that or
26:28
choose to be happy, but I can notice when I am feeling happy and I can then engage
26:33
with that happiness, be more present.
26:36
Because the goal is not to suppress your negative experiences or thoughts
26:39
because when they happen, they happen.
26:40
Check those out.
26:41
Instead, we want to cultivate and absorb the positive experiences.
26:45
And we start to then make them a lasting part of our implicit memory.
26:49
And that's part of this mechanism of memory , if you really want to start
26:52
learning how to be present, taking in the, these positive moments, when you
26:56
do notice that you are feeling good about something, stop for a moment,
27:00
square up your shoulders, take a good old in through the nose out through
27:03
the mouth breath, and then just observe and take in the things around you.
27:07
If you're feeling good about something, , what can you see?
27:10
What can you hear?
27:10
What can you feel?
27:11
What can you smell?
27:12
What can you touch and try to create that implicit memory?
27:16
Being more intentional about taking in those good moments, even if that
27:20
good moment party is crashed by the thoughts of worry and doubt and despair
27:24
that starts to change that implicit memory or what it feels like to be
27:27
you and forgive the cliches coming up.
27:30
But I think it's so important to understand that changing that
27:32
internal landscape of your mind is a journey, not a destination.
27:36
I mean, you're not going to just complete this one and move on to the
27:38
next task on your list, but I promise you that when that internal shift occurs.
27:43
And it suddenly becomes the way that you operate the way that you think
27:46
that is a feeling that I really do wish everyone could experience that they
27:50
could spend more time with, because I think if we could get a feel for
27:53
what that would feel like to have a little bit of peace in one's mind,
27:57
doesn't mean that the thought stop.
27:59
I can recognize and acknowledge.
28:01
Those thoughts.
28:02
Oh, that's a negative thought.
28:03
That's a story.
28:03
My brain's trying to hook me to.
28:05
Okay.
28:05
I'll note that brain.
28:06
That's adorable, but I'm going to take action on the ones that really
28:09
mattered to me because , I think that that would help people recognize how
28:12
prevalent those negative thoughts are and that they have become the
28:16
interior landscape of your mind.
28:18
I think it's time to hire an interior decorator.
28:20
And while I don't think I would have ever used the concepts of interior decorator
28:23
and me in the same sentence, unless they were, , with other words in the sentence,
28:26
such as isn't or never will be, or could use, and, but I will gladly sign up to be
28:31
your new interior decorator of your mind.
28:34
, but there is no magic bullet or magic pill.
28:36
It's about consistent, compassionate practice.
28:39
As a matter of fact, what if I were to tell you that it will
28:42
take as long as it will take?
28:44
I warned you about a cliche and as long as you're continuing to be aware
28:48
and using the tools when you become aware of them and give yourself grace
28:51
whenever you recognize that you may have slipped back into an old familiar way of
28:54
thinking, would you be okay with that?
28:57
, or would you need a timeframe?
28:59
, what if I were to tell you that it could take potentially years to change
29:02
that interior landscape of your mind?
29:03
That is part of the problem.
29:05
That can be a tough selling point.
29:06
But I think a lot of those same concepts and principles apply is the
29:10
change something that you're truly open to or interested in, or has so
29:13
much time past that while you may tell yourself that you really want that
29:16
change is your desire for the change more of a socially compliant goal.
29:20
, is it something that you think that I should want, but I don't even know if I
29:23
really want that because if that's the case, your motivation will be pretty
29:27
weak and ineffective because that isn't necessarily what it really does feel
29:30
like to be you is to want that change.
29:32
Sometimes we say we do, here's cliche number two one of the challenges.
29:36
Is it harder to keep things the way they are or to make a change?
29:40
Because that question is starting to ask us to, to compare two
29:44
different types of discomfort.
29:45
There's the discomfort of staying in a situation that we don't like, and
29:49
there's the discomfort and making a change to improve our situation.
29:52
and there's also , the discomfort of not taking any action, which I think
29:56
will start to move back toward shame because now, man, I can't even make
30:01
a decision what's wrong with me, almost as if we want someone then to
30:05
come , and make that decision for us.
30:07
, let me give you a couple of examples of, of what these might look like,
30:11
, which version of the discomfort we want staying in the situation we
30:14
don't like are making the change.
30:15
I think about things like, unhealthy eating habits.
30:18
Let's say that you eat a lot of junk food, hypothetically, and it causes
30:21
you to feel tired and maybe you don't really like the way you fit
30:24
in your clothes, making that change.
30:27
That would be deciding to eat healthier.
30:28
And at first it would be very hard to give up your favorite junk food.
30:33
But then if you start to feel better, a little more energetic, then that
30:37
question is, is feeling tired and maybe unhappy with your appearance, staying
30:40
the same, worse than the temporary discomfort of changing the diet.
30:45
Or you look at friendships, a version of that staying the same,
30:47
somebody has a friend who maybe puts you down and then you don't
30:51
really feel that great hanging out.
30:52
They don't make you feel like a very good person, but maybe
30:55
you're afraid of being alone.
30:57
Maybe you think that this is the only chance I have of having a friend.
31:01
Making the change, then there's a couple of versions that maybe you're
31:04
going to talk to your friend about the problem or spend less time with them,
31:07
and that could feel scary at first.
31:08
So the question is, is the ongoing hurt from the friendship, staying
31:12
the same, worse than the fear of confrontation or loneliness,
31:15
which would be making a change.
31:17
Or we see this in the job front a lot, I think people that don't like
31:20
their job, but they keep going because it's familiar, it pays the bills.
31:22
So making the change, you might have to consider looking for a new job or going
31:25
back to school, and that would mean uncertainty and possibly less money.
31:30
And so then that question is that daily stress and unhappiness at
31:33
work again, staying the same worse than the uncertainty and potential
31:37
financial strain of pursuing something new, which would be making a change.
31:42
, there's a old Chinese proverb.
31:43
I like this as the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago.
31:46
Second best time.
31:47
Right now.
31:48
. We can ruminate and wish we would have done it sooner earlier.
31:51
The acceptance piece is that, but we didn't, back to the
31:54
Buddha brain in the book.
31:55
Hanson talks about this path of practice.
31:57
He lays out these stages of growth, but first he does talk about throwing darts.
32:01
If you're not familiar with the first dart and the second dart concept, the
32:04
first start is basically the initial unavoidable pain or discomfort that we
32:08
experienced when something unpleasant happens, that's going to happen in life.
32:11
, the first start is literally thrown at you by life.
32:13
It's part of the human condition.
32:14
It's usually out of our control.
32:16
For example, if you lose your job, the immediate disappointment, the shock,
32:19
the fear that represents the first dart.
32:21
. The second dart , it's the additional suffering that we inflict on ourselves
32:26
from our reaction to the first starter.
32:27
So unlike the first start, we have more control over that second one.
32:31
This is where the self judgment, the fear, , the shame, , and those
32:34
interpretations intensify the initial pain of losing the job.
32:38
So in that job loss scenario, you start blaming yourself.
32:41
You start feeling worthless and sinking into the pits of
32:44
despair because you think, I.
32:45
I could have done something to prevent this.
32:47
, those feelings represent that second dart
32:49
And in the Buddha brain, then Rick Hansen lays out these four stages.
32:53
That have to do with the darts, and he has a scenario where you forget to
32:57
bring something home from the store.
32:58
So I love how he lays this out.
32:59
He says, Stage 1.
33:01
You're caught in a second dart reaction, and you don't even realize it.
33:04
Your partner forgets to bring the milk home, and you complain angrily without
33:08
seeing that your reaction is over the top.
33:11
Stage 2.
33:12
You realize you've been hijacked by greed or hatred, in the broadest
33:15
sense, but you can't help yourself.
33:17
So internally, you're squirming, but you can't seem to stop
33:20
grumbling bitterly about the milk.
33:22
And I think that stage two is where we so often find ourselves, even
33:25
when we're beating ourselves up, of that in stage one, I didn't
33:28
even know what I didn't know.
33:29
Stage two, I know, but I can't seem to stop myself.
33:32
And so then we start to beat ourselves up and sometimes wish
33:35
I never even knew what I knew.
33:36
I wish I didn't even understand these things.
33:38
I wish I could go back to the simpler time.
33:41
But I beg to differ.
33:42
You know, he talks about going into stage three.
33:44
Some aspect of the reaction arises, but you don't act it out.
33:47
You feel irritated, but you remind yourself.
33:50
That your partner does a lot for you already, and getting cranky is
33:53
just going to make things worse.
33:55
So at stage 3, I think you're really starting to, you're
33:58
starting to do things or be aware of things more than you're not.
34:02
And then stage 4, the reaction doesn't even come up.
34:05
Sometimes you forget that you've ever had an issue.
34:08
You understand that there's no milk, and you calmly figure out
34:10
what to do now with your partner.
34:12
That is where , you've just become.
34:14
It's not that you've reached your final destination, but now what it feels like
34:17
to be you, your implicit memory is okay.
34:21
And you're just recognizing a lot of things, noticing things.
34:24
Nobody's out trying to harm you, or if they are, then, man, bless
34:28
their heart, that's not somebody that I want to interact with.
34:31
But, it will definitely take a long time, and I think that's the
34:35
part, , that's a really tough sell.
34:37
And he goes on to say that in education, these are known succinctly
34:40
as unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious
34:45
competence, and unconscious competence.
34:48
If you're just paying a little bit of attention, then that probably all sounded
34:51
like the same, but think about that.
34:53
Unconscious, I'm unconscious about my incompetence.
34:56
So that's, I don't know what I don't know.
34:57
Then there's conscious incompetence.
35:00
Now, unfortunately, I'm aware.
35:01
of my incompetence or I'm aware that I am not showing up the
35:04
way that I wish I would show up.
35:06
Then he said, there's conscious competence.
35:08
So now I'm aware and I'm starting to show up a little better and
35:11
then unconscious competence.
35:13
I just am.
35:14
And he says that those are useful labels for knowing where
35:16
you are within any given issue.
35:18
And he says that second stage is the hardest one.
35:20
And it's often where we want to quit, you know, that part where I'm
35:23
aware now, but I just don't seem to be doing anything different.
35:26
. Because when you want to quit, that's often I think where the emerging feelings
35:30
of shame come into play with the, what's wrong with me versus that's such a key
35:34
moment to give yourself grace and say, well, check this out now I'm aware,
35:39
but yeah, it's true that maybe I'm not making the progress that I would
35:42
like to, but this is the first time I've ever been me in this situation.
35:45
So it's better to take this approach of, so check that out.
35:48
That is definitely, a thing, this is happening.
35:50
These are thoughts, these are feelings.
35:52
It's so important to keep aiming for those third and fourth stages.
35:56
You will get there, especially if you're aware of it and you're starting to work
35:59
on it because now it's going to be part of your internal landscape of your mind
36:03
and that slow residue of lived experience.
36:06
But that's where I've simplified those stages.
36:07
I think into, you didn't know what you didn't know.
36:09
You know, you're simply reacting and you're just kind of being, you aren't
36:13
even aware of what you're not aware of.
36:15
But then next up, you realize that, you know.
36:18
But like Hansen says in that stage too, you can't help yourself,
36:21
internally you are squirming.
36:23
You just find it hard to stop.
36:24
And I believe that really will be the most difficult place to
36:28
be jump to that third stage.
36:29
You know, when you start making some progress, you hit the, I know, and now
36:33
I'm starting to do more than I don't.
36:35
I'm taking more action on the things that matter to me and I think
36:39
that's why it's so important to figure out what does matter to you.
36:42
And if I'm in unhealthy relationships, then maybe I'm
36:45
finally seeing it for what it is.
36:47
It's unhealthy.
36:48
So it's okay for me to have my own interests, my own opinions.
36:50
My spouse doesn't know me better than I know myself.
36:53
And I'm entitled to my own thoughts, my own hopes, my own dreams, but I
36:56
can still get emotionally hijacked.
36:58
, there's an acronym in the addiction world, halt, hungry, angry, lonely, tired,
37:02
or when maybe the people that I'm in a relationship with find a new button.
37:06
To push that that gets me that gets me to react.
37:09
And then all of a sudden I go back to beating myself up.
37:11
And that's where I'm hoping that you can see there are so many paths that
37:14
lead back the shame to the what is wrong with me versus the we'll check that out.
37:19
This is again.
37:19
This is how I'm feeling.
37:21
Now I'm understanding a little bit more.
37:22
I might not be exactly where I want to be, but I'm starting to make change.
37:27
And that change is starting to be based on this slow residue of lived
37:30
experience, and it's starting to reshape the internal landscape of my mind.
37:34
or what it feels like to be me.
37:36
And finally, I become.
37:38
I am being and doing.
37:40
I am loving.
37:41
I am creative.
37:42
I no longer play small.
37:43
Not perfect.
37:44
But I realize that everything's an opportunity to self confront.
37:46
Everything's an opportunity for growth.
37:48
I am not selfish.
37:49
When I exercise self care, my job is not to be everybody's emotional support
37:52
animal to the detriment of myself.
37:54
When I'm being myself, I am in a better position to lift myself and those around
37:58
me who are not trying to drag me down.
38:00
And to those who are trying to drag me down, bless their hearts.
38:03
I have a tremendous amount of empathy for them.
38:05
And at some point I realized that I never would have actually gotten to the place
38:08
where I am now had I not been through the things that I've been through.
38:12
And I can even truly hope that they change, that they see,
38:15
maybe they do see what I'm doing.
38:17
And they use that as an opportunity for growth, then take a look inward.
38:19
But that's not on me.
38:21
This is a process for me.
38:24
, that's not why I'm becoming, I'm becoming because now that I know, I can't unknow.
38:28
I can't unsee what I've already seen.
38:30
I can't unring the bell.
38:31
I can't close Pandora's box and so many other cliches.
38:34
Maybe you've thought of a couple yourself.
38:36
I also now have this chance to become the transformational figure.
38:39
And my kids, my family it's just a beautiful place to be.
38:43
But once again, that process can be lengthy.
38:45
It takes as long as it takes.
38:47
Because of all those variables that go into what made you, you.
38:51
If I were to tell you then again that this process can take years,
38:53
this would have frightened you away.
38:55
Or now that you're starting to know, would it actually be a bit more comforting?
38:58
Because I hope it's option B, because you're on your way, and it is going to
39:02
get better, a lot better eventually, but that what better looks like, , there's
39:07
a lot of variables there as well.
39:09
If you're not familiar with the work of Brené Brown, I highly recommend it.
39:12
I've seen some titles call her a shame researcher, but she does
39:16
say the following about shame.
39:17
She said, the less you talk about it, the more you have it.
39:20
She said shame needs three things to grow exponentially in our lives,
39:24
secrecy, silence, and judgment.
39:27
Brené Brown said that empathy is the antidote to shame.
39:30
She said the two most powerful words when we're in a struggle, Me too.
39:34
And only by processing your feelings of shame with a trusted counselor or
39:37
supportive friend, will you be able to move past guilt and shame and recovery.
39:42
And what I think is so key to what she's saying, Is that processing of
39:46
those feelings with a trusted counselor or a supportive friend, not the person
39:49
that's going to say, why'd you do that?
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Or I wouldn't do that.
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Or you really did that versus the, tell me about that.
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Tell me what you did.
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What was that like?
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How did that feel?
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Finding that person that isn't immediately going to make it about themselves.
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Because in that moment, what they'll often do is then they'll take your
40:05
discomfort and then throw it right back on you and now need you to comfort them.
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Which again, Can take somebody right back to what is wrong with me?
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Why did I even try to express myself to this person?
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And we often hear it put this way, that shame then pertains to a person.
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Guilt pertains to action or actions.
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And to blame and remorse.
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You know, shame says, I am bad.
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Guilt said, alright, I did something maybe that I don't feel good about.
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And more subtly, shame involves falling short of cultural
40:36
and societal moral standards.
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But then guilt involves falling short of your own moral standards.
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So who better to wrap this thing up to take us home?
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Then Frederick Nicha, a famous philosopher.
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And he had this really good quote.
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About shame.
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He says, what do you consider the most humane?
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Despair.
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Someone's shame.
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What is the seal of liberation?
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To no longer be ashamed in front of oneself.
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So let's break that down.
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What do you consider the most humane despair?
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Someone shame.
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So I need you to say in that one of the kindest things that we can
41:10
do for another person is to do our best, to not make them feel ashamed.
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And ultimately that is a dumb thing, but I'm not saying that in a weaponized way.
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But am I saying something that could cause someone to feel shame that is
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something that I can control if you think about it like this, when we
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embarrass somebody, are we pointing out their flaws in front of others?
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We are most likely causing them some shame.
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It's like we're putting a spotlight on their weaknesses or their mistakes.
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And nature believes that avoiding this, not putting people in
41:38
situations where they feel ashamed.
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Is one of the most caring things that we can do.
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And then he goes on to say, what is the seal of liberation to no longer
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be ashamed in front of oneself?
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And I think that part it's about personal freedom.
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, niches suggesting.
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That true freedom comes when we stop feeling ashamed of ourselves and we
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stopped taking on that personal shame.
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, it's as if somebody has a secret part of themselves, you're always hiding
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this because you're ashamed of it.
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Maybe it's something you've done or maybe it's part of your personality,
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or it's a fear that you have.
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And as long as you're ashamed of that part.
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You're in this mental prison.
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You're always worried about it.
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You're always trying to hide it.
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But what, if you could accept that part of yourself?
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What if you could look at that and say, that is a part of me and that's okay.
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I'm human.
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, I'm not perfect.
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You don't need, you're saying that when we can do this, when we can
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face ourselves without the shame.
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That's when we're truly free.
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It's like he's given us a recipe of sorts to, to be both a good person to others.
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But then also really finding peace within ourselves.
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And it is not easy to do either of those things, but Nisha thinks that , they're
42:40
really important for living a good life.
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And what does this look like in modern day?
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Let's take a fictional hypothetical couple.
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, we'll just call them Sarah and Mike.
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And they are dealing with financial stress because I think financial stress can bring
42:53
on a lot of shame and the relationship.
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And this scenario, we'll say that Mike lost his job and he's
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struggling to find a new one.
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So this part, one Nisha says to spare someone chain, the shameful approach,
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the Sarah constantly criticizes Mike for not finding a job quickly.
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And she makes sarcastic comments about his job search in front of friends
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and family saying things like, oh, a Mike's really busy these days,
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you know, with all the video games he's playing instead of job hunting.
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Because this makes Mike feel ashamed and it makes them feel worthless.
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Now the more humane approach would be Sarah understanding that Mike
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is already feeling pretty low.
43:25
Don't kick a person while they're down.
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So instead of criticizing, then she can offer some support.
43:29
She might say things like, Hey, I know.
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How are you trying to find a job?
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I really appreciate that.
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Is there anything that I can do to help?
43:34
Or when talking to others, she respects Mike's privacy and dignity
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saying something like, oh yeah, Mike's in between jobs right now.
43:40
But, uh, yeah.
43:41
I'm sure he's going to land on his feet or he's going to find something even
43:43
better or not even bringing it up at all.
43:46
And then that part too, to no longer be ashamed in front of oneself.
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So, if we're talking about now, Mike's internal journey feeling ashamed.
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He probably thinks I'm a failure.
43:54
As a husband.
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I can't provide for my family.
43:56
Sarah deserves better than me.
43:58
And then he'll start to avoid social situations and start to withdraw from.
44:01
His wife.
44:02
When Nisha says liberation from shame,
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what that might look like is Mike reflecting?
44:06
And just thinking.
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Okay.
44:07
Losing my job was tough.
44:08
That happened.
44:09
There's acceptance there, but it doesn't define who I am.
44:12
, I'm more than just my job.
44:14
I'm still a good husband, a friend and a person.
44:16
And yes, acceptance.
44:17
This is a challenging time, but I am going to do my best to move forward.
44:21
Because then in that example, Sarah shows how to spare Mike from shame by
44:25
offering support and then maintaining his thing that he in public.
44:29
Because that is the humane action that needs to talks about.
44:32
And it helps preserve the relationship.
44:34
And especially Mike self-esteem during a difficult time.
44:37
And then Mike's internal journey shows this path that he's on toward liberation,
44:41
because at first he does feel shame.
44:43
About us unemployment.
44:44
But I learned to separate his job status from his worth as a
44:47
person, which is so important.
44:49
Because he is Mike.
44:50
He has lost his job.
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He's not, uh, a loser who has no job.
44:54
Oh yeah.
44:55
Mike.
44:56
He's a person he's going through things for the first time in his life has him.
44:59
And check that out.
45:00
He's lost his job.
45:01
Now.
45:01
It's an opportunity to self confront in grow.
45:05
And that will allow him to face this job search with a lot more confidence
45:08
and then maintain a healthier self image, which in turn , will show up
45:12
better as he's looking for a job.
45:13
So I hope that today I was able to make the point that shame so far.
45:18
I'm oh, for 20 years of shame being a component of recovery,
45:22
a component of growth.
45:24
But yet we just default to it over and over again.
45:27
And looking at that as when we're aware of it, that when we go into this place
45:32
of shame, That, that selfish nature that we've talked about is not meant
45:36
to make the person that is feeling bad about themselves, feel worse, but
45:39
hopefully we can bring some awareness to that early enough that if you notice
45:43
that you were starting to go toward this place of shame, To be able to.
45:47
Stand up straight, take a deep breath in through the nose, out through the mouth.
45:50
Recognize I'm okay.
45:52
This is the first time I'm going through life as me in this situation.
45:55
And this is happening.
45:56
Check this out and I can notice all the feelings and thoughts and
45:59
emotions, and I can have them all.
46:01
But if I default to shame, am I, am I shutting down?
46:05
Am I needing someone else to rescue me when this is a time
46:08
where with this information I can.
46:10
Rescue myself.
46:11
I can show up different.
46:13
I can use this opportunity for growth.
46:15
And I can finally put shame in that rear view mirror once and
46:17
for all, because it is possible.
46:20
To go to a place of where I can still notice that I'm feeling bad or I
46:23
wish I would have done things better.
46:24
But there's an absence of that.
46:25
What's wrong with me.
46:26
I'm a big piece of garbage because that is not going to help anyone.
46:30
I would love your questions.
46:31
I would love your thoughts.
46:32
I would love your experiences.
46:33
Feel free to send those to me.
46:34
At contacted Tony overbay.com.
46:37
And I just appreciate you joining me, taking us out per usual,
46:40
the wonderful, the talented.
46:41
Aurora Florence with her song.
46:42
It's wonderful.
46:43
Have a great week.
46:44
And I will see you next time on the virtual catch.