Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E58: Michael Knowles on Becoming Catholic, His Wife, & Dating

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E58: Michael Knowles on Becoming Catholic, His Wife, & Dating · The Lila Rose Show

0:00
Having both been raised largely secular, our friends who were
0:03
living according to secularism, we're all miserable.
0:07
But our friends who were Christian, they were happy.
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We thought, wait, this what's going on here?
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Why is this group of people, these Christians, why are they
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happy? And all of our friends who are
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atheists are all miserable. Does that tell you something?
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And that's more persuasive than many arguments.
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OK, we have a treat today on the podcast.
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We've got Michael Knowles here in studio of the Michael Knowles
0:29
Show. We just did actually interview
0:31
over at the Live Action Space, which you can watch on the Live
0:33
Action podcast, but we're here to talk about some other stuff.
0:37
So, Michael, thanks for sitting down.
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Thank you for having me now. Now we can get to the really
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juicy stuff. You know, that was the hors
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d'oeuvre. Yes, there you go.
0:44
I like that. I like that mentality.
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1:22
So I want to talk about, we're going to talk about
1:24
relationships, stuff you do give dating advice on your podcast.
1:27
I do my best. Which is interesting for a man
1:30
who's dated one woman Will. Split up for a little bit in
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college. So I, I feel I'm not really
1:36
bragging about this, but I mentioned earlier, Lila, that I
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was an atheist for about 10 years and I lived and behaved
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like an atheist. And so I was single and, you
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know, dating other women for a relatively short period of time
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compared to people who do it for, you know, decades.
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But I made the most of my time, I'd say.
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And so, having made plenty of mistakes, gone down bad paths,
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mercifully saved from those paths by God's grace and my
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sweet little Lisa, my wife, I try to make sure that other
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people don't fall into the same pitfalls.
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Excellent, so your lovely wife, you did meet her though in the
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4th grade? Yeah, we.
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So there's some debate. We, I think we met in fifth
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grade district orchestra. She was from Bedford Village,
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NY. That's the right side of the
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tracks. I was from Bedford Hills.
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That's the wrong side of the tracks.
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Both a relatively impoverished to compared to where AOC grew
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up. You know Jenny from the block
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who was in the town right over. But we were both, I think I was
2:42
the penultimate chair in district orchestra as a
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violinist and Alyssa was maybe the ultimate chair.
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So we neither of us were particularly good at this.
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She has no recollection of meeting me there and so she
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insists. We met in 6th grade homeroom,
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which I do remember. Then she had a crush on me in
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8th grade and but I was dating my Co star as the lead of the
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8th grade play. And who was that?
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What was that play? That was Guys and Dolls, my
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favorite musical. And then I had a crush on Alyssa
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in 9th grade. She was dating a much older man,
3:13
an upperclassman who didn't like that.
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I thought, all hope is lost. And then we started dating
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junior year of high school, dated for high school.
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And what's odd is neither of us wanted to split for college, but
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everybody around us, our families, our friends, our ever,
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the whole culture said you have to.
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It's insane you can't continue to date your high school
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sweetheart in college. How far away where your college
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is going to be? Pretty far.
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You know, I was in Connecticut and she was in Maryland.
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So it's a bit of a hike. Made the trip once or twice, but
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so we split for college and then by the end, you know, I'm
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running, arms outstretched, pleading to get my high school
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sweetheart back, at which she took me back after a little
3:55
while. And now we joke.
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I mean, we think, why didn't we? We should have gotten married at
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18. Maybe that wouldn't have worked
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either. But all's well that ends well, I
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guess. All's well that ends well and
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you have two beautiful children. Yes, and how many years married
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now? We were married for six, five
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years, beautiful over six years. You should know that
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immediately. I know, but make sure that
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anniversary date is imprinted deeply in your soul, Michael.
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All right, so but you're saying that for 10 years with Alyssa
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Elisa, Elisa. It's actually Alyssa.
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Alyssa, I said Elisa. I say Elisa because it's very.
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So I'm right you're you're. Right.
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And I'm it's because when we dated in high school, I would
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pronounce her name with an Italian accent.
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OK, I try to win her heart. Win her heart.
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Casanova. Sounds like that worked a little
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bit pretty well. I got in the end, yes.
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How much Italian are you, Michael?
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I am. Only, I guess half Italian.
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It depends on how you count Sicilian.
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Some people, oh, that's separate, you know, yeah, some
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say it's North African, but and then I would be an African
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American, but I'm about half Italian calibres and Sicilian
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and then a quarter WASP in English and a quarter Irish.
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OK, so that's where I have this name, which is very English
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Knowles, which some think is an Anglicization of cannoli at LSI,
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but it's it's not. Could have been could have been
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well, that's AI have it in common because we're we are
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actually 1/4 Italian, 1/4 Sicilian.
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If you want to separate them out me too.
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My my mother was just in her homeland recently in Italy and
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just enjoying being just like I could live here.
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I was like, well, yeah, your your ancestors did.
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They did. So OK, so Alyssa.
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Alyssa who you call Elisa to try to win her heart, which?
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Is very romantic. OK.
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All right. All right.
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So you were on and off with Alyssa, but you said at the same
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time these were your years of atheism when you were sewing
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wild oats or? Yeah, certainly.
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Yeah. How does how does that?
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How does that work? I became And why were you an
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atheist? Because I was a punk kid and it
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wasn't all my fault. It was mostly my fault because I
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I was a precocious 13 year old, which means I thought I was a
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lot smarter than I really was. Much smarter than every
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intelligent person, whoever lived, and the parts that were
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not my fault as I lived during the time of Christopher
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Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris,
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which was this publishing phenomenon really more than an
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intellectual movement, the New Atheists and during the time of
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the church sex scandal. So it's not not great for the
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church in the news and in the hierarchy.
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And also it was the time. And this bears a lot of
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responsibility, I think, of extraordinarily weak catechesis
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have felt banners and a confusion of orthodoxy because
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of a whole series of unfortunate errors that followed after the
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Second Vatican Council. So the, you know, people always
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try to point out that the they want to blame all of the errors
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that happened on the Second Vatican Council and that that
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would be a discussion for another time maybe.
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But they were all, you know, there's nothing in the documents
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of the Second Vatican Council that says that big catechists
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need to start preaching heresy. And, you know, all all this kind
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of sappy, awful hymns, you know, And the part that I think is not
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the least of these issues is the the weak catechesis at that
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time, you know, that the scandal of eucharistic abuse in the
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liturgy and of confusion being taught in classrooms and at the
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pulpit. You know, I had some wonderful
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catechism teachers, but even a couple of good catechism
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teachers can't overcome error that is being promoted by higher
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ups in the church. You know, and, and so even the
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music, you know, how can the church expect men and especially
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young teenage boys to sing along to these sappy lighten the
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loafers 1970s hymns? You know, about eagles wings.
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Oh, why? I mean they weren't even cool in
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the 70s and you expect about I could be singing good solid
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part. Of all, I mean, there's there's
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some lovely words and intentions there, but I I hear the point.
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Lila, I will never raise you or anybody else up on eagle's
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wings. I won't do that.
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Some people love that song, Michael.
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They cried for that song they wanted at their funeral, de.
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Gusti Bustin and dust Baton de Meste, you know, and so all of
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that coupled together, I just thought.
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So you heard eagle's wings. I basically that's the last
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straw. I I just thought at the time
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Christianity was for stupid people and smart people either
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were atheist in the Reddit kind of way of Christopher Hitchens
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or they were Eastern, you know, non, non theological spirit,
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just people this spiritualist, you know, like they'd play sitar
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I which I do actually learn sitar.
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And so I did everything I could to avoid Christianity.
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And then my atheism weekend, starting freshman year in
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college, because I met my randomly providentially assigned
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roommate, who remains my best friend, you know, godfather to
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each other's kids and everything, who himself was kind
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of agnostic. But he introduced me to Alvin
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Plantinga's Modal Ontological Argument for God, which was a
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reformulation of Saint St. Anselm of Canterbury's
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ontological argument, which was rejected really by Saint Thomas
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Aquinas. And I thought it was kind of
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funny that you've got this Calvinist philosopher at a
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Catholic University, Notre Dame, making this argument.
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That's a rewriting of a Catholic argument for the existence of
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God that the most famous doctor of the Catholic Church rejected.
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And that was what convinced me, or at least put me on the right
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path because it at least showed me when I, when I got to
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college, they were very smart, many of them much smarter than
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me, and most of them atheists. But the very smartest people
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were not atheists, they were religious and they were
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Christian and basically all of them were or ended up Catholic.
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Although that's kind of weird and it's still, I'm a little
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slow. So it took me a number of years,
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but by 23 I I finally seated with my intellect that the truth
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that most people just understand intuitively.
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And became well, you already were raised Catholic, so you
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just came back into communion, confession, go to mass.
10:23
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checkoutcarlyjeanlosangeles.com. And then you once you and Alyssa
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got married, she was already Catholic.
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Or what was her story? No, she was.
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My wife was raised in a secular kind of environment and but I'll
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tell you, she asked the priest, she said, do I need to convert
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for the wedding? And our priest in his great
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wisdom, said, no, don't convert if you want to convert, but
11:34
don't do it for the wedding. And so we had those
11:38
conversations later. But so the wedding was not a
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full mass. It's quite beautiful, though.
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It was the Church of Saint Michael, coincidentally in New
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York. And and then it was something
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else that we were noticing around this time, which is that
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having both been raised largely secular, our friends who were
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living according to secularism, we're all miserable, anxious,
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and but our friends who were Christian, we were surrounded by
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a lot of Protestants at the time.
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Protestants were very good at seeming happy and everything.
12:13
They were happy Catholics. Sometimes we're a little, we
12:16
play closer to the vest, but the Protestants really kind of wear
12:18
it on their sleeve a lot of the time.
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We thought, wait, this, what's going on here?
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Why is this group of people, these Christians, why are they
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happy? And all of our friends who are
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atheists are all miserable. Does that tell you something?
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And and that's that's more persuasive than many arguments.
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The joy of the Lord. It's a real thing.
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It's a real thing. I remember becoming Catholic in
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college and when I my day of confirmation in First Eucharist
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was not particularly emotional, to be honest, which kind of
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surprised me. But I also knew I, you know, I
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think the headspace I was in at the time.
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But afterwards, the peace, the kind of intangible peace that
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brings joy. It's real.
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It's real and profound and it's never left.
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And thank God for it. It's just the best decision of
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my life. I noticed it in confession,
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which actually around Southern California, where we are now, I
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was at a church, St. John the Baptist in Costa Mesa,
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and I was online for confession. This was when I was kind of
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coming back into the church. And I gave my confession and I
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said, oh, Father, you know, I fell into the sin of pride, and
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I also committed the sin of lust and a little bit sin of wrath.
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You know, he cuts me off. He said, hey, man, dude, he
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didn't say, man. So do you do this often?
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Do you confess often? I'm trying to start going to
13:37
confession now. He goes, yeah, because that's
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not how you do it. I need specificity.
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I need detail. I need the number of times
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you've committed these sins because otherwise you're just
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going to give the same ambiguity every week, and then you're
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going to keep doing it. I said, oh, OK, all right,
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that's good. And so I learned how to give a
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proper confession in my 20s here at in Southern California.
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And I find this with confession. I've confessed my sins many,
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many times and still I have a kind of terror of it.
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I'm standing in the line and I, I don't, it's, I often do not
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sin because I don't want to confess sin, which is not the
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perfect reason not to sin, but it'll get you there.
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But, but I, I have this terror, but I know the priest, I'm not
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going to say anything to this priest.
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He hasn't heard a billion times before.
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I still have this terror of it. And, and I, I find if I've
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committed a sin, if I'm out of the state of grace, it's much
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easier for me to fall into sins. I'm just kind of, it's like a
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snowball and then I'm in there and the moment I hear Agate
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Absolvo, it's gone. And like I talked to an exorcist
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about this once and I said, father, like what I can't figure
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out is I understand the spiritual piece that would come
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with confession because I think it's a real sacrament.
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It's really do. But what about the physical
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aspect? I could go into confession
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racked with wrath, just angry somebody cut me off and I didn't
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and my the dry cleaners ruined my tuxedo, to use a touching
15:05
example right now. And I I'm so angry.
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And then I got or, or I'm racked with lust, pride, gluttony.
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I don't whatever, all of them. And I come out of the
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confessional and I don't even feel the same physical thing.
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And he said to me, Oh, well, yes, Michael, that's because
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confession cuts demons off of. You wow.
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He said that's what's, if you want to visualize it, that's
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what happens. And demons, they're like, you
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know, wild dogs, they kind of form packs and they attract
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others along the way. And but, but you you realize
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that it's all real. And I I keep re realizing this
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no matter how many times I do it, I'm somehow still surprised
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that it's real. What's so remarkable is there's,
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I think a whole generation of Catholics and I meet them that
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they're a raised Catholic, right?
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And then they become evangelical later because as being raised
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Catholic, they never really were catechized.
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They never really experienced the faith in a way that could
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touch them at the deepest level in in their experience, right?
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I do think obviously the sacrament of baptism, it touches
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you, whether you who might feel it or not emotionally in that
16:06
moment. But why do you think that is
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that there's this whole generation of fallen away, let's
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call them Catholics, many who are living a faith life
16:15
beautifully in many ways as evangelicals.
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But they they had the sacraments, but they didn't feel
16:22
them or they didn't fully understand them in their minds.
16:27
Lexorandi, lex Gridendi is the way it's traditionally
16:30
understood. The law of worship is going to
16:34
be the law of belief and like. And what follows from that is
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Alex Vivendi. It's going to be the way that
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you live, too. And, you know, some people make
16:45
too big a deal out of the liturgical upheaval that
16:49
occurred after the Second Vatican Council, but the vast
16:52
majority of people don't make nearly enough of a deal about
16:56
it. You have the Mass of the Ages.
16:58
This was the the traditional Latin Mass.
17:00
It's called codified at the Council of Trent.
17:03
So it's called the Tridentine Mass, but it's not from Trent.
17:07
This Mass goes back in basically it's full form, almost its
17:11
entire form to Saint Gregory the Great.
17:14
OK, so you're talking? What year is that?
17:16
Around 600. So you're talking about a Mass
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that's been around for at the very least 1400 years.
17:22
And but really it goes back further than that.
17:24
I mean, you can see elements of it going back to the really
17:27
earliest days of the church, all of all of which was thrown out
17:31
the window, 92% of which was thrown out the window really.
17:35
You know, I mean, the, the core of the Mass is preserved, the
17:39
sacrifice on the altar, you know, the transubstantiation of
17:42
the host, that is preserved. But the entire liturgy
17:46
surrounding it, even the orientation of it, you know, the
17:48
traditional Mass, the priest is facing the altar.
17:52
We know sometimes in this very selfish way, we say, oh, he's
17:54
facing away from us. No, no, no, he's not.
17:56
He's facing the altar. You're all facing the altar
17:59
together, and you are oriented toward the sacrifice as a
18:04
spectator would have been oriented toward the cross at
18:06
Calvary. The the liturgical innovations
18:10
and degradations that took place after the Second Vatican Council
18:14
turns that all around based on just erroneous understandings of
18:18
even how the early Christians lived.
18:20
There was this erroneous belief that in early Masses the priest
18:25
faced the people. And there it's kind of a long
18:29
story as to why they thought that, but it just turned out not
18:31
to be true. It just wasn't the case.
18:34
You know, the notion that the early Christians were all just
18:37
hippies living a really minimalist kind of sterile away,
18:41
It's just not true that that was never true.
18:43
But isn't it also true that Vatican 2 even what it dictates
18:47
and recommends? I think some are dictation, some
18:50
are recommendations about the Mass.
18:52
Many are not even properly followed today.
18:54
Of course not. So that's part of the issue is
18:56
that you can have a Novus Ordo Mass that has a tremendous
18:59
amount of reverence and beauty in it.
19:01
Like that does exist. I've been to one, I've been to
19:03
them before. But then you can have those that
19:06
the reverence seems very lacking and you're very frustrated with
19:09
the, you know, the maybe some even things that are not correct
19:14
in the liturgy that they were missing or they've added or
19:17
whatever. And that's not the Novus Ordo
19:19
necessarily. That's a a depletion of it or a
19:22
corruption of it. That's the nice way to put it, I
19:24
guess. And and of course that I mean I,
19:26
I. And I think the Latin Mass is
19:28
beautiful. Yeah, but the I I re entered the
19:30
church with through a traditional Novus Ordo liturgy
19:33
and I I think they can be nice. But the fact that we have to say
19:39
reverent Novus Ordo, the fact we have to qualify that with an
19:42
adjective to me tells the whole story.
19:44
And you know, we always hear, well, the new Mass wasn't
19:47
implemented as it should have been.
19:49
And the reformers of the liturgy so-called, they just didn't
19:53
really pay attention to the documents of the council as they
19:56
should have. Well, yeah, OK.
19:58
But at a certain point, when are we going to acknowledge that
20:02
this is the way these things are consistently implemented in a
20:05
way that's extraordinarily irreverent.
20:07
And so there there can be a reverend of a sort of a Mass.
20:10
I totally agree. But.
20:12
Even the most reverend of a sort of Mass still loses so much,
20:16
removes a huge number of prayers, removes a huge number
20:19
of crossings and genuflections and kneeling and just the
20:23
richness of the liturgy. And you know, that Mass is not
20:26
something that was just invented by man.
20:28
It's not just the whims of some churchmen over the course of
20:31
2000 years. We see the Mass, we see a
20:34
mystical reading of the Holy Mass in the Book of Revelation.
20:37
You know, this is is something that has been handed down to us.
20:40
And so it has persisted. Some will say, well, that's the
20:43
old Mass will tell. I don't think it's very old.
20:45
I go to it every week. It's been around the whole time.
20:48
And certain popes have clamped down on it more and certain
20:51
popes have opened it up more to the faithful who love it.
20:55
So I don't think it's going anywhere.
20:56
And I think that what some people ridiculously, reasonably
21:00
called the old Mass is the future of the church precisely
21:06
because it's not merely a product of man.
21:08
But I do think that that was a big part of it.
21:11
I mean, you can when they upended the Mass, you we were
21:14
told this was going to lead to a period of people refilling the
21:17
pews and, you know, a new Pentecost and it just didn't
21:20
happen. The opposite happened.
21:21
The pews totally emptied out. And if you go to the 1970s style
21:25
masses today, the median age is about 106.
21:28
And there are no children anywhere and there are no
21:30
priests really. And if you go to the traditional
21:34
Latin Mass, the median age is 8. And if even if you take the kids
21:37
out of the median age is like 24.
21:39
And it's because that is attractive to young people who
21:42
maybe like me, fell away from the faith during periods of
21:46
confusion and soft soap and and weak preaching.
21:51
And who, if they are to return, they're not going to return for
21:54
more of that. They're not going to return for
21:56
more of the world. I get plenty of the world every
21:58
day of the week. They're going to return for
22:01
something that is beyond the world, pointing toward beyond
22:03
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22:58
Well, I do see, I mean, amongst those thriving parishes, like
23:02
even here in Southern California, maybe they don't
23:04
have the Latin Mass, but there's still a thriving there because
23:07
there's an orthodoxy in the leadership and the pastoral
23:10
leadership. There's an attention to the
23:11
family to not just like, you know, our beautiful elders, but
23:15
we want young children here. We're going to accommodate young
23:18
families, activities for young families, catechesis for young
23:21
cat families. That's excellent.
23:23
And yeah, do I wish the Masses were more reverent, you know,
23:26
but I have a maybe different standards than others.
23:28
There's of course, but there's a there's a liveliness to it, you
23:31
know, a life to it. And there's many people there.
23:33
So I think you're on to something for sure.
23:36
But I think the biggest issue I've I've seen is just a lack of
23:40
catechesis and community because in the Protestant tradition
23:44
today, if you could call it the tradition, but the anti
23:47
tradition, yeah, the Protestant innovation.
23:49
But there's a very big, I mean, they have community.
23:52
That's the focus. And I think that's a very
23:54
attractive to many people. Why did you choose when you
23:57
became non on atheist? Who left your atheism?
24:00
Why did you choose Catholicism and not evangelicalism?
24:03
It sounds like you had both Protestant and Catholic friends.
24:05
I did and I I would have considered myself evangelical,
24:10
at least in demeanor for for a part of that reversion for
24:16
precisely what you're describing, because all the
24:18
young cool kids who who really seem to believe it, a lot of
24:23
them were evangelical, you know, non denominational Protestants,
24:26
capital N capital D trademark over the L.
24:28
But that that was very attractive to me.
24:31
And you know, that's that's really a scandal of the Catholic
24:36
Church that the church can't present that kind of joy in in
24:43
certain quarters. Obviously in many quarters it
24:45
does, but that's that's a big problem.
24:48
What ultimately though, I think led me to come back home in the
24:53
long, long way, as long as it possibly could be, probably is
25:00
what what Peter says to our Lord, which is when our Lord
25:03
says my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.
25:07
And if you don't eat my flesh and drink my blood, you don't
25:10
have any life in you, and people go away.
25:13
And then our Lord turns to the apostles and says you're not
25:16
going away. And said Peter says, well, to
25:19
whom shall we go? And so I believe that our Lord
25:24
gave the keys to the King of heaven, to Saint Peter, and
25:27
said, what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.
25:28
What you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
25:30
I believe the historical claims of the Church.
25:33
I believe the theological and ecclesiological claims of the
25:36
Church because I need to, because no matter how heinous
25:42
the decisions made by certain bishops or whoever can be, you
25:47
ultimately have to ask, well, where does the authority come
25:49
from? I might disagree with any number
25:52
of people, but on what authority do I get to believe that the
25:57
thing I think is true actually is true?
26:00
And Saint John Henry Newman, famously a rather anti Catholic
26:03
Protestant who then became a Catholic St.
26:06
He he described the the distinction between Catholicism
26:09
and Protestantism ultimately as a question of authority.
26:12
The for the Protestant authority ultimately rests with individual
26:15
conscience. Even even John Calvin, who was a
26:18
very intelligent man and and a much more of a systematic
26:21
thinker than most of those early Protestant revolutionaries.
26:25
Ultimately, when he was asked why he he believed there were
26:28
only 66 books in the Bible, contrary to many centuries of
26:32
Christian belief, He said, Oh well, I just felt an inner
26:35
working of the Holy Spirit within me.
26:36
Basically, he said, I just think so I just heard a heard a voice,
26:39
which is weak sauce for someone of John Calvin's intellect.
26:43
Whereas the church can say, you know, we have the authority, we
26:46
have the deposit of faith Magisterium, and we are the
26:50
divinely instituted body of Christ on earth.
26:52
And it reminds me of that Hilaire Belloc quote because I
26:55
don't want it to seem like I'm dissing my Protestant friends or
26:59
that I'm papering over scandals and problems with the church.
27:03
I'm not at all. What Hilaire Belloc said is that
27:06
he had to take it as a matter of faith that the church really is
27:10
the church, but for a non believer proof of its divine
27:13
institution would be that no other institution conducted with
27:17
such navish imbecility would have lasted A fortnight.
27:21
And I totally. I think it's incredible that
27:23
we've been with the corrupt, you know, priests and popes and
27:27
certainly laypeople, plenty of corrupt Catholic laypeople over
27:31
the years, you know, horrible stories.
27:33
And, you know, you mentioned the sex abuse scandals earlier and
27:36
like, absolutely heinous. I mean, just you have these
27:39
Catholics doing horrible things, Judas Iscariot there, you know
27:43
the OG right? And we can do horrible things.
27:46
But that the teaching has remained consistent and constant
27:52
and true for 2000 years despite the people that are in power
27:56
that are not some of them to be trusted, that the Holy Spirit
27:59
really has protected his people, his church.
28:03
And you know, you mentioned the, you know, the Calvin saying,
28:06
well, I felt like the Holy Spirit or, you know, God,
28:08
something told me to remove the books from these books I didn't
28:11
like in the Bible, you know, Maccabees, take it out.
28:13
And I remember I was raised Protestant and I read Maccabees
28:15
and I was like, this is incredible stuff.
28:17
These guys, he's like seven sons who are standing up for their
28:20
faith and their mother saying, you know, be willing to die for
28:23
the faith. And I was just like this.
28:24
I needed this stuff as a young Protestant girl.
28:26
But but all this to say, you know, the Holy Spirit, of
28:31
course, is active among our Protestant brothers and sisters
28:33
and in the evangelical community.
28:35
The Holy Spirit's active everywhere because that's his
28:37
power. But like you said, what's the
28:40
final authority if one Bible believing Christian says it's
28:43
this way and the other says in full sincerity it's that way?
28:46
And these are things that cannot coexist.
28:49
There are two interpretations of the same thing.
28:51
Who decides? Right, there's also.
28:53
And that's why we have 50,000 denominations today in the
28:56
Protestant community. Exactly.
28:57
There's a former speechwriter for Trump who is now an author
29:02
in in his own right. I just follow him on Twitter,
29:05
Josh Charles, and he's a Protestant, very radical
29:09
Protestant who has become Catholic.
29:11
And he said, and he writes, the reason I follow him on Twitter
29:13
is because he writes these beautiful essays and with long
29:16
quotations on patristics, you know, going as far back as one
29:20
can go. And what made him Catholic,
29:24
other than the Holy Spirit, is that he as a, you know,
29:30
righteous young Protestant was going to prove that the early
29:33
church was Protestant, not Catholic.
29:34
And so he went back and he read the Church Fathers and he found
29:36
out it was Catholic. He found out that what the
29:38
fathers believed remains essentially unchanged even 2000
29:43
years later, and that many of his beliefs when he was
29:45
Protestant are are found nowhere in, in the church fathers.
29:51
And there's something funny today, too, which is that, you
29:53
know, as you can imagine, I'm not the biggest Martin Luther
29:55
guy, but the views of me and Martin Luther are on many topics
30:00
much closer than the views of supposedly Lutheran Protestants
30:05
and Martin Luther. And and so there's a kind of
30:08
funny irony that Luther and Calvin would probably have
30:10
burned many modern Protestants at the stake and certainly
30:13
burned their books, because there there is that.
30:19
They're closer. I mean, Martin Luther, even
30:21
though he was obviously protesting some things that in
30:24
practice should be protested, not in the doctrine, but in the
30:26
practice of things that were abuses.
30:28
There always have been and there always will be as long as human
30:30
beings populate the church, right?
30:32
But, you know, he was passionately anti contraception
30:35
as an example. And I'm sure you're referring
30:36
that and what you just said. And today it's hard to find that
30:39
among the large majority of Protestants, including in the
30:43
Lutheran tradition. You know, there's an acceptance
30:45
of things that even their founding fathers rejected
30:48
morally. So there's a there's a lot to
30:51
that. But one more thing I wanted to
30:53
get into with you, Michael, is back to your love story with
30:56
your lovely wife. And we have a lot of people
30:58
listen to the podcast all in relation, listening for
31:01
relationship stories advice. What is your advice?
31:05
It's chaotic. We talked about the Whatever
31:06
podcast on my on our last podcast for live action and you
31:10
did a fantastic job on the Whatever podcast.
31:12
Thank you you as. Well, and.
31:14
You were great too, because I I was sort of on the side of the
31:17
women I tried to be, at least for a lot of it against the host
31:21
Brian. But you completely destroyed
31:23
that red pill guy with facts and logic.
31:26
It was great. It wasn't intent, it was not
31:28
intentional destruction. It was more I sincerely wanted
31:31
to understand, you know, that that worldview more because I
31:34
I've learned more about red pill in the last year.
31:36
And it, it, it does crumble in on itself because to say I have
31:41
so much self-control or I have so much power as a man to do all
31:45
of this good. But then I don't have power in
31:47
the most physical, bodily sense over my appetites.
31:50
You know, it doesn't, it doesn't add up.
31:52
So what's your advice, though, for, you know, let's start with
31:57
the men, the young men listening about it, particularly those who
32:00
are not married yet or seeking marriage.
32:03
How does one find, I mean, you met your wife in arguably middle
32:07
school. So do you have advice on that,
32:10
on the terrible world of dating today, how difficult it is and.
32:14
It relates to the red pill guys, because the red pill guys are
32:17
right that our present legal system is terribly unfair to
32:22
men. It's TER, it's horrifically
32:24
unfair. And our culture encourages
32:28
divorce and all sorts of terrible things.
32:30
So I have a great deal of sympathy for them.
32:34
And they point out, well, half of marriages end in divorce,
32:37
which is not exactly true, but let's call it 40%.
32:39
Call it high 30s or something. But among those who are
32:43
educated, who have faith, who don't cohabitate, the marriage
32:47
rates are actually very strong and very high.
32:49
Well. There you go.
32:50
That's a big key because I pointed out to these red pill
32:56
guys, I said, you know, you're right that the divorce rates are
33:00
high, but among Catholics, just to use my own religion, it's
33:05
much lower. And by the way, some people call
33:08
themselves Catholics who don't really believe the faith at all.
33:11
A lot of people do that. So when you just focus on people
33:15
who believe in the faith that call themselves traditional
33:17
Catholics or so it's silly that you have to qualify it, the
33:21
rates drop precipitously much, much further.
33:24
So I said, so my advice would be you're totally right that there
33:27
is a huge risk that when you get married, your wife's going to
33:30
leave you take your kids, take your money.
33:32
The court, courts are going to completely turn against you.
33:34
Your life is going to be you're right, there's a huge risk.
33:36
One way to mitigate against that risk would be to practice a
33:39
religion that not only forbids divorce, but does not even
33:44
accepted the the possibility of divorce that denies the very
33:47
reality of such a thing. That's going to go a long way
33:50
toward doing it. And and you know.
33:53
But they have to be chased for that, Michael.
33:55
And they have to be chased. They got to be chased, yes.
33:57
The Catholic faith you need to be and Christianity at large,
34:00
women and men have an equal responsibility to chastity.
34:03
And I think that's a that's challenging for red pill because
34:05
they say men because they have a harder time because they're
34:08
wired differently. They should not be held to the
34:11
same standards as women. Men do have a harder time and
34:13
men are wired differently. I have red blood, you know, just
34:17
like all of these other. I'm Italian just like all these
34:20
other guys, but to suggest that we are merely slaves to our
34:26
basest appetites is extremely weak.
34:29
It's it's not merely to surrender our masculinity, it's
34:32
to surrender our humanity. Because the thing that makes us
34:37
human is our reason. You know, a hog doesn't have
34:39
reason, but we do. And so if we say, well, no, I'm
34:41
only going to follow my appetitive will, my lower will,
34:44
and not my rational will, which should be commanding my
34:47
appetitive will. And the rational will is the
34:49
mediator between the lower will and the divine will.
34:51
Well, then it's to surrender your whole humanity and you just
34:53
become an animal. So that would be weak stuff.
34:56
And the other thing is you're not going to attract the kind of
35:00
woman who is likely not to ruin your life.
35:03
If you are a scumbag. You're just, it's not going to
35:06
happen. You.
35:07
I mean, this is, you know, Aristotle talks about different
35:10
kinds of friendship. And there's friendship of
35:11
pleasure, which is where you just like doing the same stuff.
35:14
And there's friendship of utility, which is networking,
35:16
kind of, you know, you can help me, I'll help you and that.
35:19
But then there's true friendship, highest friendship,
35:21
which is the friendship of virtue.
35:23
And the friendship of virtue, Aristotle says, is only possible
35:25
between good men, men who are concerned with virtue,
35:30
practicing virtue. That's the that's the only way
35:32
you're going to have that kind of friendship.
35:34
And if you're not doing that, if you're living a vicious kind of
35:37
life, you're going to attract the like.
35:39
And there are ways out of it. None of us is perfect, none is
35:43
good but God. But but we actually can be
35:45
sanctified and we actually can be edified and we can practice
35:49
virtue. You know, even it's amazing
35:51
today people don't understand that this is possible, but good
35:55
old Uncle Aristotle spelled it all out that there are four
35:58
kinds of people. There are the vicious people who
36:02
are self indulgent and gleefully so.
36:04
So that's good. You know, I'm chasing all these
36:06
women and it's awesome. I'm the man, right?
36:08
And then there are the incontinent people who they say
36:11
they recognize a moral standard, but they just fall short of it a
36:15
lot. That's a lot of people.
36:17
And then they're the continent people who recognize a moral
36:19
standard largely live up to it, but only through grit and, you
36:23
know, just grit in their teeth. And then that's where most
36:27
people think the story ends. But there's actually a fourth
36:29
category, which Aristotle says is the only happy man, and
36:31
that's the virtuous man who does good things and enjoys doing
36:35
good things. And you can get closer to that.
36:37
That's actually possible. But if you're just going to be
36:39
Don Giovanni, you know, you're going to be a little pimp
36:41
Casanova, you're going to attract the kind of women that
36:44
that attracts. And it's that's not going to
36:46
make you happy. And it's probably going to
36:47
increase your your likelihood of divorce.
36:49
So then my advice for all these guys who are dealing with this
36:51
is two sides of the advice. One is be a good person.
36:58
You know, do the things you're supposed to be doing.
37:00
It's simple stuff so that you are worthy of a good woman.
37:05
On the other hand, you know, have fun.
37:09
Some people take dating I mean they they think has.
37:12
Fun meaning getting to know women, you know, obviously
37:17
chastely, but getting to know taking a girls out, figuring out
37:20
you know, who you're attracted to or who you're connected to,
37:23
build friendship with, you know, date.
37:25
Is that what you mean by that? I mean, yeah, I'm not saying.
37:27
Good meaning this is not some like doldrum thing where it's
37:29
like an an arranged marriage where now you sit down and you
37:32
look stone faced at another person and say do we share the
37:34
same value? Even an arranged marriage could
37:36
be a lot more fun than what people are doing today.
37:38
I mean, they treat it like it's. At least you get the Bollywood
37:40
dances. Exactly.
37:42
Yeah, I mean, the way people talk about it now, well, I'm,
37:44
you know, I'm going to find a partner that does checks off
37:47
this box and this box like you're like you're on a job
37:49
interview and you go on a date. You know, dates are fun.
37:51
Women are. Pretty.
37:52
They can be fun. Yeah, they can go true.
37:54
I mean, I the people will say, Michael, how do I converse with
37:57
a woman on a date? Man, do you like her?
38:03
Yeah. OK.
38:04
Do you find her, therefore somewhat interesting?
38:07
Are you curious about her? Are you?
38:09
Well, then maybe the things that you desire about her that are
38:14
elevated, how about you inquire into those things?
38:17
You know, how about you sincerely like the woman?
38:21
It'll come out. You know, I mean, it's not, it's
38:24
not brain surgery. I mean, this is where Dante is
38:27
really good. Dante writes the greatest poem
38:29
ever written, the Divine Comedy. And it's about this girl, not
38:33
his wife, by the way, whom he met twice when she was 9.
38:36
And he loves her. And she is this this symbol of
38:44
pulling him out of hell all the way through hell, sends Virgil
38:47
down to help him and then up through purgatory and then up to
38:49
heaven. And he still desires her.
38:52
He still loves her even up in heaven.
38:53
And he looks up at her eyes and her eyes don't look at him.
38:57
She's a little harsher on him. She's not cruel.
38:59
She saves him, his life. But she's looking at God.
39:03
And he sees God reflected in her eyes.
39:06
And I think that is a really good way of thinking about our
39:09
will, you know, because what we come down to as humans is will
39:13
and intellect. We're talking about the
39:15
importance of reason and the rational will, of course, too.
39:18
And so de Nozo Cortez, the great Catholic political philosopher,
39:22
observes that freedom is not in choosing between good and bad.
39:29
You know, we're not really free if we don't.
39:30
Because if that were the case, then the less inclined we are to
39:33
choose evil, the less free we would be, right?
39:36
It's not just this neutral ability to choose.
39:38
Freedom is in will and understanding, and as you
39:42
perfect your will and as you perfect your understanding, you
39:45
you then will truly be free. You won't have the freedom of
39:48
the heroin addict in San Francisco.
39:50
That guy's not for you. He's a slave.
39:52
You will have a a true freedom and your will will be in the
39:55
right place. That's what Chesterton said
39:56
about the socialist atheist Bernard Shaw.
39:59
He said George Bernard Shaw has a very big heart, but it's not
40:01
in the right place. So as as you do, as you do that,
40:05
as you grow in that way. You'll have a lot more fun and
40:09
you'll find more beautiful, wonderful, enchanting women, and
40:14
you'll have a much better life. And you'll end up in heaven. 1
40:17
hopes, 1 hopes. We will, We all hope.
40:20
Thank you, Michael, that was excellent.
40:21
I think that will be a great encouragement to people
40:25
listening and find the woman who's looking at God.
40:28
Fun, lovely woman who's seeking God because by looking in her
40:31
eyes you see you can see God. That's right, hopefully it won't
40:34
be as tough for you to get there as it was for Dante so you can
40:37
drink. No going through hell for all of
40:39
us, hopefully. Thank you, Michael.
40:41
It's awesome. Thanks for coming on the
40:42
podcast. Pleasures.
40:43
All mine. Thank you guys for listening to
40:45
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40:47
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